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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 2005

Business Costs: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Brendan Butler, Mr. Donal Buckley, Mr. Paul Sweetman and Mr. Jim Killeen of IBEC and Dr. Tom Taylor, Mr. Ian Martin and Mr. John Condon, who represent industry. The discussion will deal with the impact of local charges on Irish business.

Before we commence, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call on Mr. Butler and his colleagues to make their presentation.

Mr. Brendan Butler

We have a brief presentation to make and we will be delighted to take questions. IBEC is joined by representatives from industry who would be able to give a reflection of the impact of increased local charges on business.

The issue of business costs has become significant for Ireland. A survey of business costs that IBEC conducted last year showed that non-pay costs increased in the period 2003-2004 by 19% over the previous two years. Inflation over the same period was less than 6%, showing that business costs in Ireland generally were running at over three times the rate of inflation.

A range of factors contributed to those non-pay costs but of particular relevance was the issue of local government charges. Over that same two-year period businesses faced average increases of 18.4% in rates, 20% in water charges and 31% in waste charges. Those are average figures.

As the committee will be aware, there are a number of different councils. Among those councils, there were significant variations in costs over the past number of years. Our presentation provides a number of examples in the area of waste charges over the period 2000 to 2004. We highlighted the three local authorities with the highest percentage increases in that period and the ones with the lowest percentage increases. As the committee will see from the presentation, Cork City Council, Cork County Council and Limerick City Council applied increases of over 300% in waste charges over a four-year period. By comparison, South Dublin Council and Dublin City Council applied increases of less than 50%.

One can see from the presentation that particular authorities are charging business over €200 per tonne of waste while other authorities are charging less than half that amount. This inconsistency does not apply to waste charges only. If one looks at water charges, the water charges of a business operating in the Longford County Council area increased by 247% in the period 2000 to 2004, while the water charges of businesses operating in Wicklow or Monaghan increased by 11% over the same period. In terms of what one pays, a business operating in Cork city pays €9.23 per thousand gallons of water while a business operating in the Cork County Council area pays just over €3.

A similar case applies in the case of rates. The rate of valuation multiplier applicable to a business operating in Limerick city this year is almost €76, while a similar business operating in Kilkenny will pay just over €45. These increases highlight the variation and the difficulty for businesses.

Under the recently introduced planning development levies, an additional charge which is being imposed, a business building or extending its premises in the Dublin City Council area will pay an additional levy of €110 per sq. m., whereas one in the Waterford area will pay €12 per sq. m. There is almost a ten-fold difference in a levy being introduced across the local authority system since 2004.

We do not want to come to the committee today merely to highlight the problem. In putting forward a position, it is important to suggest possible solutions and what we feel needs to be done to deal with the matter. From a business perspective, we identified three key areas of challenge. The first of these issues is the accountability of local authorities. How accountable are local authorities compared to different organs of the State? The second issue is efficiency. We hear a considerable amount of debate about value for money and the issue of efficiency within local authorities. The third issue is fairness and transparency. I want to make clear that business does not have a problem with paying for services. Business accepts it must pay for water, pay for waste and pay rates to cover the costs of services being provided by local authorities. What business has a problem with is the fact that it is practically the only sector of Irish society that pays these particular charges even though everybody uses water, everybody produces waste and everybody needs to pay their local authorities for the services being provided. We need to be clear about this; the business community is cross-subsidising other sectors of the community to a considerable extent.

From where has the issue come? In terms of scale alone, in 2000 local government and authorities spent €2.4 billion in current expenditure. Last year that figure had increased to €3.6 billion. That is a 50% increase in spending by local authorities. Staff numbers within local authorities have increased over the same period. There were 30,000 employed in local authorities in 2000. There are 35,000 employed by them at present. On the Government contribution to current expenditure, 20 years ago the Government paid 65% of the costs of running a local authority. Last year that figure had reduced to 44%.

Local authorities are finding that their expenditure is increasing enormously, what they are getting from central Government is decreasing to an extent and, therefore, they must bridge the gap. They have two ways of bridging the gap: first, efficiency, which is what we would suggest and about which I have spoken; and second, increasing charges. We would argue that to date the route taken by the local authorities has been to increase charges.

The business community, as I mentioned earlier, is the only sector that pays rates. Last year it paid €1.4 billion. Charges to businesses represented 40% of the total income of local authorities. The problem with this debate is that while local authorities are spending more and businesses must pay more to local authorities, businesses are not in a position to pass on any of those extra charges.

Over the past three years 30,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost in Ireland. Currently 500 jobs are being lost a month. Every community and town in Ireland has faced job losses because businesses have had to face increased costs and have not been in a position to pass those on. Local authority costs are one of those significant increased costs.

A person operating a business producing goods or services in Ireland gets 13% less today for the product or service than he or she got in 2000. Such a person is getting less for what he or she is producing but his or her costs are increasing continuously. If a person cannot square that equation, the bottom line is that individuals will lose jobs and companies will close down and that is what is happening to a significant extent.

The business community would make a number of suggestions to resolve the issue. First, on the issues of accountability and efficiency, we would suggest that local authorities should be subject to the same controls as other entities within the structure. At present, the local authorities are not subject to review by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts. This is a sector of the State that is spending in the region of €4 billion a year and it is not subject to the aforementioned reviews. Why are there 34 city and county councils and 80 urban borough councils? This amounts to almost 120 different units around the country dealing with local government. Does a country with 4 million people need 120 structures to deal with such matters? There must be enormous opportunities to share resources, to consolidate, to have centralised functions, whether accounts or legal services, driving test centres or motor tax offices. Why does every single local authority have its own particular units?

There is no competition within local authorities in, for example, waste management. Waste is an enormous issue for Ireland at the moment. Local authorities own and regulate the landfill sites, they set the prices and give out the licences. There is not competition and landfill charges in Ireland are three or four times higher than in any other country in Europe.

In terms of indicators, there is an issue as to how efficient the local authorities are. The truth is that we probably do not know how efficient they are. A range of 42 performance indicators was introduced by the Minister two years ago. All of them related to the relationship between the council and domestic home owners. Not one of the 42 performance indicators relates to the relationship between the council and the business community, even though the latter provides 42% of local authority income, while domestic consumers provide 6% to 8% of the total fund.

Businesses have been paying substantially more for their local authority services in the past few years. There is a strong case to be made for local authority charges not to be allowed to increase by more than the rate of inflation. In fairness, one of the country's local authorities has decided to look at a five-year strategy, whereby it will not increase rates by more than the rate of inflation. That should be the system across the board.

The people sitting here have not been able to increase their costs even by the rate of inflation. Yet local authorities have been increasing their costs by 10%, 20%, even 300% in some of the examples I gave. We have said that business is prepared to pay, but in fairness there has to be equity. There are large sectors of Irish society which do not pay for their local authority services. Business continues to cross-subsidise. We strongly urge that we should operate the principle that the user pays. If one gets a service one should pay the appropriate price.

Take the position on benchmarking. The Government agreed to this and it imposed additional costs on the local authorities. That should have been met either by local authorities seeking efficiency measures or alternatively they should have been funded for that particular cost. Similarly, where local authorities provide services or facilities for Government Departments or agencies, these should be paid for. If I have a business premises I pay rates. No such charges are paid for Government or local authority facilities. Dublin City Council estimates it loses €25 million a year because Government Departments and various other State agencies pay nothing in terms of rates. The local authorities have to provide those services. Who pays for the premises of a Government Department? The people sitting around this table pay for them.

Finally, we suggest that in terms of efficiency the local authorities need to be incentivised. We are calling for an efficiency fund, whereby a sum of money will be put by and if a local authority can demonstrate clear efficiencies, it will be rewarded by being able to draw down some funds from it. This is an absolutely critical issue for business. We are not talking about this from IBEC's viewpoint alone. The Small Firms' Association, the Construction Industry Federation, the Irish Retail and Newsagents' Association, the Irish Exporters' Association, the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland, RGDATA, the Restaurants' Association of Ireland and the chambers of commerce are all supporting this issue. It is not a case of one particular organisation but is spread right across every segment of Irish business.

I will give the committee an example of what this means for actual businesses. Some of my colleagues will give relevant examples from their perspectives. Take a small company in Dublin with eight employees. Its commercial rates this year were €107,000. The average industrial wage in Ireland at present is €38,000. Just to pay the rates is the equivalent of three jobs. This is a small company with eight people. The rates have increased by 20% in the last two years. Water and waste charges have increased by 81%. Has that business seen an 81% improvement in service? I doubt it very much.

A good-sized manufacturing company in Cork with 400 employees had a rates bill this year of €1.2 million. Waste charges have increased by 45% in the last two years, water charges by 21% and rates have almost doubled.

The final example is a manufacturing company in Sligo, employing 85, which paid €35,000 in rates. Waste charges have increased by 27%, water charges by 17% and commercial rates by 21%. The same level of increases is not evident there. Why would a company set up business in Dublin or Cork when it could set up in Sligo? These variations between local authorities are throwing up major questions in terms of businesses being able to survive.

The key point that IBEC wants to make is that in our view funding of local authorities needs to be fair. At present local authorities are seeking excessive revenue from business and this cannot be sustained indefinitely. Local authorities are major spenders of money. They spent €4 billion this year. They must be encouraged to operate to the highest level of efficiency. They must operate as efficiently as the people sitting around this table do in running their businesses. If we continue to operate on the basis that business will pick up the tab for all local authority expenditure, there will be fewer businesses. If there are fewer businesses, there will be a reduced workforce. If there are fewer workers there is less tax and the local authorities — and other arms of Government — will find themselves worse off as a result.

Let us be clear that businesses will pay the appropriate amounts. However, they operate in terms of national and international costs. It is no good saying, in effect, to someone with whom one is doing business in Germany, France or America, that one's water charges have gone up by 25% this year and one has to increase prices. They do not want to know. That business will be lost if one attempts to pass on such costs. If one is operating in Ireland, exactly the same situation pertains. A small company here that pleads it must pass on its local authority charges to a large client will be told it cannot do any further business. That is what is happening.

We are talking about jobs being at stake, not just businesses but people's livelihoods. Some 30,000 jobs have been lost in manufacturing in the past three years. It is particularly difficult for small companies. They find it extraordinarily difficult to survive at present. How can one run a business if one does not know what the charges will increase by? People are telling us their rates increased last year by 5% and next year the increase will be 20%. Their water charges increased last year by 10% and next year it is 40%. How can one budget or explain to one's corporate headquarters? In a small company the finance manager must inform the managing director. There is enormous uncertainty and no consistency. At least if we arrived at a system whereby local authorities were restricted to increasing rates to the rate of inflation, people could at least budget and some certainty could be brought into the system.

If I were a foreign investor looking at Ireland as a location of choice and did my homework in terms of what was contributing to costs and saw how local authority charges had increased relative to their counterparts around the world, we would be bottom of the league. This ultimately will affect our international reputation. We have benefited enormously in this country because we have been able to attract large numbers of foreign companies. We have a large indigenous sector built on that. If we continue this spiral of rapidly increasing costs, fewer foreign companies will come here. The companies that are already here will not expand. They will not get new projects. They will go into decline. Ultimately, this is not just a problem for the business community. It is a problem for everybody.

We ask the committee to take up this issue in its work programme and examine it in detail so that it does not simply hear one side of the story. While we have provided the committee with the business community's perspective, this will be an important issue for Ireland in the future. We urge the committee to examine the issue to establish whether we can deal with some of the problems we have tried to highlight in our presentation.

Does Mr. Butler wish to leave it at that for the moment?

Mr. Butler

If we took some questions, we would be able to use some practical examples.

Mr. Butler should feel free to comment at a later stage.

I welcome the ideas which IBEC's representative has put before the joint committee. It is both timely and important that he should have done so. By way of background information, I understand that the Indecon report on the funding of local government, which I believe has been ready for some time, will be published within the next couple of months. It should provide a basis for that important debate.

I completely agree with Mr. Butler about the question of development charges, which are totally irrational. Depending on where one lives, one can pay anything from a small to a massive amount. While they are unfair, the problem is that local authorities have no other way to obtain money and see the possibility of gaining income from imposing such levies. This makes it much more difficult to develop a house or business in, for example, County Wicklow than in County Donegal or wherever.

I want to ask the witnesses about local authority waste charges. An increasing number of local authorities have privatised their collection services and I do not know whether IBEC's figures take this into account. For example, my local authority in Drogheda provides no service at all to anyone. Hence, in an increasing number of authorities, the marketplace will dictate the level of waste charges imposed. Has IBEC considered that factor in the proposals it submitted to the committee? This is the trend and, with increased competition, the market will drive prices down and people will use the service which provides the best value for money.

I agree with IBEC about its indicators concerning efficiency in local authorities. Many of them are terribly inefficient. I sat on a council for 27 years and if a shortfall arose when estimates were drawn up, it was passed on to the business community. IBEC has made an important point which must be borne in mind. It stated that it would like an indicator relating to a local authority's relationship with its business community to be included in the 42 indicators. Can the witnesses elaborate on how it would be quantified or how it should be measured?

Mr. Butler

As for the Indecon report examining local authorities, we understand it has been presented to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It is important that it be published as soon as possible, because we believe it will highlight some of the inefficiencies. The debate about waste is relevant in this context. The Deputy asked whether we had proposals and I referred earlier to competition. At present, there is insufficient competition and waste is the classic example whereby the local authorities operate the landfills, legislate, prepare the licences and, to some extent, set the charges. I will ask two members of our delegation to contribute on this issue. In the case of one representative, his business finds it easier and cheaper to export waste. Another delegate has strong views regarding his business and the waste issue. Hence, I ask Mr. Ian Martin from Martin Hygiene to pick up on the issue of waste.

We are involved in the hygiene business. As part of our business concerns sanitary bins, etc., we must get rid of our waste. We must also wash our bins and have machines and so on. As stated earlier, we have seen our costs in the Dublin area rise by 81% and one cannot ask one's customers to pay 81% more now than they did two or three years ago. They simply will not do so. That is our first problem. Our second problem is with the public authorities. While they seek fixed priced contracts, which is very admirable, how do we provide them with a fixed priced contract when we know our costs are going out of line? Thus far, costs have risen by 81%. Should I give a price for the next two years in the hope that costs will not rise? As they will rise by another big percentage, the increases are unsustainable.

Mr. Butler

I will now ask Mr. Condon to describe the situation faced by Merck, Sharpe & Dohme (Ireland) Limited.

Mr. John Condon

One difficulty we face concerns the rate of increase which we have been obliged to face in the past four years, whereby our waste bill has risen by 370%. Second, while I agree with the Deputy that where one has competition, one has more options, this has not been an option for us in Ireland. Hence, we have been obliged to export our waste. We have now reached the ridiculous situation, bearing in mind the transportation costs, where we can export our waste for €290 per tonne but must pay €365 per tonne if we dispose of it locally.

The third point concerns uncertainty. Many companies plan their budgets for the following year midway through the current year, which leaves them uncertain as to what they will face in terms of increases. While it is easy to plan for an increase which approximates to the rate of inflation, if it is decided to levy an increase of 25% in the following year, companies do not have much choice. Hence, the rate of the increase plus the associated uncertainty is the major problem for our company. This is also true for the industry as a whole.

Mr. Butler

As for the question regarding indicators, the fact that we have provided the committee with exact details of what each local authority charges for waste and water rates and levies is relevant. We have traced them for all years between 2000 and 2004 and will be able to make available the figures for 2005 shortly. These figures are indicators and show that Cork has increased waste charges by 300%, while another local authority has increased them by 25%. Why is the planning and development levy set at €11 per square metre in one part of the country and at €120 in another? At present, local authorities are not asked to explain why those variances exist. Moreover, they do not inform the business sector as to why those increases have been applied. These are one example of an effective form of indicator. We have published these figures and the local authorities have begun to respond. A local authority does not like to see itself as being the dearest or as having the greatest increases. We must induce the certain local authorities to begin to ask why their costs have risen by 300% in four years when these have risen by only 50% in other areas. If a local authority wishes to attract business to its part of the country, it should ask why a business would go where it will be hit with waste costs that are six times higher than elsewhere. These are relevant questions.

This issue affects the survival of business. I will ask Dr. Taylor to give a practical example of a well-established small business operating in Ireland.

Dr. Tom Taylor

I am the face of small, indigenous Irish industry. I work with Burgess Galvin & Company Limited, which is a fully Irish-owned company. It has been operating on the borders of Finglas and Ballymun for the past 60 years and employs approximately 50 people throughout the year. While I have been with the company for 25 years and have seen both good and bad times, I have never seen such bad times as now. We are being squeezed from all angles. Increases in the price of oil, about which we can do nothing, are feeding into the system. We can control some of our costs but others, such as local government and electricity charges, are uncontrollable. These charges are killing us. We cannot secure a corresponding increase from customers such as Tesco, Dunnes, SuperValu and Superquinn. One major multiple informed us that if we applied the increase, we would not be doing business with it within three months. It would carry out that threat simply to teach us a lesson, even if it could not secure a cheaper price elsewhere.

We cannot recover these costs. If the increases are only inflationary, we can at least argue them with the multiples. However, we cannot budget for inefficiencies in local authorities. I will give a practical example. We pay, and have done so for the past 50 years, the local authority, Dublin City Council in our case, to test our water effluent three or four times each year. It does so to ensure that we are not putting down our drains anything that might affect our system. The Environmental Protection Agency recently introduced the IPC licence which also requires water testing. The same licence conditions apply for the EPA and Dublin City Council. The EPA takes a sample of the same water four times a year and has it tested in another laboratory. We pay twice: we pay Dublin City Council for carrying out the same tests carried out, for the same reason, by the EPA. That would not be tolerated in private industry. In such a situation, a contract for testing the water would be tendered and the results would be forwarded to all interested parties, resulting in the costs being halved.

If we cannot get increases from Tesco, Dunnes Stores or SuperValu, we must seek efficiencies within our organisation. We are asking that the same efficiencies be sought within the local councils. As pointed out on a number of occasions, we have no problem paying for the services we receive. However, we are concerned when we are busting a gut to achieve efficiencies within our organisation and are then charged for unbelievable inefficiencies on the part of local authorities. That rubs us the wrong way. We are unable to obtain increases or recovery on our items. I am sure members or their partners shop in supermarkets. Many of the brands of washing up liquid sold in Ireland are made by us. Five years ago they sold for €1.38 or €1.40 off the shelf. They now sell for 99 cent off the shelf. Our raw material costs have increased, more or less, by the rate of inflation. The efficiencies made have been through our investing in the company and in asking one person to do the job of two instead of the other way round. There are no secretaries in our company anymore, everyone does their own typing. People are taught how to use computers and so on. There are efficiencies everywhere in the company. Every business in Ireland has had to go down that route and we are asking that local authorities do likewise.

If local authorities experience a shortfall, they charge business for it. If we have a shortfall, we go bust. The pressure on us to find efficiencies is different to that experienced by local authorities. We would like if that situation were addressed. The incentive fund is a good way of doing so.

I welcome the witnesses. The presentation makes interesting reading. I must declare a vested interest in that I was a member of Cork City Council who voted in favour of some of these increases. I apologise to any company that may have been hurt as a result.

I will cut to the chase because there are a number of issues involved. First and foremost, local authorities consist of an executive and public representatives and therein lies a dichotomy of decision-making. More than anything, local authority members wish to be re-elected. When Cork City Council and, I am sure, other local authorities incur shortfalls, they have two options, namely, to increase either local domestic charges or business charges. The easy option, politically, has always been to increase business charges. That has been removed as a result of the introduction of recent legislation which puts more onus on increases on management.

A number of issues are at stake. On planning development levies, Cork County Council has increased development levies along the proposed rail corridors between Midleton and Mallow. It is hoped that this will result in more proactive and profitable businesses and that it will drive matters forward. The difficulty that arises is that a local authority which invests a great deal of money in a particular area has no way of recouping it thereafter other than through the development levies and rates. It appears that the more the local authorities invest, the more they are penalised by central Government. Cork City Council was raising money long before Dublin people were making any contribution to their local authorities. Funding from central Government decreased the more Cork City Council increased its rate base. That type of initiative stifled investment by Government in local authorities, particularly in the Cork City Council area.

On the ability to pay, money must come from somewhere. It has been stated that local authorities receive approximately €1.4 billion from businesses. How do we bring forward a solution bearing in mind the political realities that exist? I do not believe many will bite the bullet on domestic charges at either local or national level. If a business thrives as a result of local authority investment in an area, a difficulty arises if the authority cannot recoup the money other than through rates. This is despite the fact that some businesses may not have the ability to pay those rates. I suggest that a certain percentage of the tax paid by companies be directed to local authorities. Such a system would be based on companies' ability to pay, rather than, as at present, on their being forced to pay regardless of whether they can afford to do so.

What percentage of a company's rates can be written off against its tax liability? We have all spoken about trying to help business. If we are serious, however, we must consider incineration as part of our national waste strategy. What are the delegates' views on this? Have they undertaken a cost analysis of waste incineration in terms of whether it would reduce waste charges or assist businesses' competitiveness going forward?

Mr. Butler

I will deal with the broad question of who pays. It is generally accepted that local authorities must recoup money somehow but, in the end, the politically expedient option has always been to hit the business community. It must be accepted that the business community is cross-subsidising a range of services used by other sectors of society. We are arguing that local authorities be capped at the rate of inflation. That at least would mean that cross-subsidisation will not increase further. That is only the first step. The second step is to examine whether efficiencies can be achieved within the local authorities. The Indecon report might assist us in that respect. Placing a cap on the extent of cross-subsidisation will create an understanding of the efficiency levels within the local authorities. The task then becomes easier in terms of what is the appropriate amount of money that should be paid over by the central Exchequer. The central Exchequer is currently paying less. Deputy Kelleher made the point that progressive local authorities are often penalised with the central Exchequer funding a particular authority to a lesser degree as a result of it bringing in additional revenue.

There are three stages involved. First, we must draw a line somewhere in the sand. In that regard, we are calling for a cap on cross-subsidisation. Second, we must seek greater efficiencies in the local authorities through a special efficiency fund which rewards progressive local authorities. Third, we must then consider what central Government should be paying.

Waste charges have increased enormously. They are three times higher than in Sweden and seven times higher than in the UK. We are almost entirely dependent on landfill. Mr. Jim Killeen, who chairs IBEC's environmental policy committee, launched a report last year on thermal treatment and the importance of moving to alternative sources away from landfill. Perhaps he can explain IBEC's position in terms of alternative options to landfill.

I will try to give a general overview of the situation and will pick up on a couple of the points made. The Cork area is not unknown to me. As regards public versus private waste collection, members will be aware that the collection of waste is now two thirds privatised, while the disposal of waste, the cash cow, is firmly in the hands of the local authorities, a combination that is not working. We all agree that Sweden is a country with high environmental standards but our costs are multiples of those charged there.

On Deputy Kelleher's question about strategies for dealing with waste, IBEC has always held the view that we need to have all the elements of the strategy in place. First, we must reduce waste where possible. On the industrial side, IBEC has disconnected from waste generated from industrial growth. Waste has decreased as industrial growth has increased. We all accept that there is a responsibility on business to reduce the waste it generates. Second, we must recycle what can be recycled. We have been heavily involved in the Repak and other more recent initiatives on electrical waste. However, we should not discard any strategy that will assist us in solving the problem. One solution is the thermal treatment of waste which we are convinced, if operated properly and to the high standards prevalent in many of the developed countries, can work. We need such a solution. We cannot continue to dispose of any of our armoury in dealing with such matters.

I have been involved in small and large manufacturing operations for the best part of 40 years in different parts of the country and in Northern Ireland. I have never experienced such a wave of costs, a large proportion of which are paid to local authorities, with the remainder going to energy, climate change, the EPA and so on. Manufacturing industry is being hit with increases in costs that are way beyond the rate of inflation. While some of the more vulnerable companies have fallen off the edge in recent times, core companies with quality jobs, such as those supplying spin-off contracts and so on, are now experiencing difficulties. Members who have experienced the loss of such a company in their constituencies will know about what I am talking. I am not suggesting that members are directly responsible for this but we must ensure that we do not eat into the bedrock of our manufacturing industry lest the price we pay is too high.

I apologise for not being here earlier but I was following proceedings on the monitor. I welcome the presentation, with the vast bulk of which I agree. I support IBEC 100% as regards the use of indicators that work in the UK and US and that lead to better management within local authorities. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has, for the past five years, only been dipping its toe in the water on this. It now needs to get down and dirty with indicators and to reward those who do well.

Comparing Dublin City Council with Bray Urban District Council is a complex task. However, it is a task that must be undertaken. The complexity of the local authority system, which includes 114 local authorities, was raised earlier. There is a need in the Dublin metropolitan area for an umbrella body to deal with the strategic issues of waste, water and transport at local authority level. It does not make sense that when one crosses the bridge over the River Dodder, one is dealing with a different local authority that enforces different charges.

Development levies are an unfair tax. They hit businesses hardest when they are trying to get up and running or are trying to expand. In an ideal world, we would have a type of site value tax or a tax that does not penalise business at the development stage. There are many good examples throughout Europe and around the world as to how that can be done. Nobody wants to bell the cat on this one. The Green Party is suggesting that a site value tax is a possible way forward as a more equitable system of local authority funding. We could talk until the cows come home about the abolition of rates some 28 years ago. It is tough running a local authority. On that note, local authorities cannot bury their heads in the sand on this. As stated, the world is changing. Climate change is occurring and it must be faced up to, bearing in mind the fiscal element involved.

The issue of waste and water was also raised. It is not acceptable to expect a 100-year old water supply system to work perfectly. The Dublin city system, with which I am familiar, was losing 30% or 40% of its water. There must be significant capital investment in these areas. In addition, it is no longer acceptable to dispose of waste by simply shoving it into a hole in the ground. The reason waste costs increased by a factor of ten over ten years is that up until the introduction of the new system, one could simply shove waste into a hole in the ground and forget about it. The market is now very competitive. IBEC will be aware given its experience during the past ten years one has to adapt to survive. The world in which we live is a complex one.

Local authorities are caught in a bind. Whatever about the difficulties IBEC may encounter in dealing with human resources and personnel issues, nobody working in a local authority gets fired. Staff costs must be paid for, regardless of whether performance is good, bad or indifferent. Managers are under a great deal of pressure in this regard. I agree that there is need for a shake-up of the system and that performance indicators are a step in the right direction. Local authorities are obliged to justify themselves to IBEC, although they do not do so. They merely slam on the 10% or 15% increase with no explanation, even in the form of a telephone call, for it. I sympathise with IBEC and I agree that a legal obligation should be placed on local authorities to explain to it what is happening. I am aware that a local authority must indicate the exact purpose for which a particular development levy will be used. However, obtaining a copy of the development levies scheme can be difficult. I have been trying to get one for the past three weeks from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and I am still waiting for it.

It has been interesting to hear the issues of concern to IBEC. I will undertake on behalf of the Green Party to look into what we can do to assist it. It was mentioned earlier that there is no independent assessment of local authority finances. There is an annual audit of local authorities, the reports of which make very interesting reading in terms of whether a particular authority is dealing with issues within its remit. I recommend the reports to IBEC.

Mr. Butler

A local authority audit unit audits each of the local authorities. The point we are making is that, to some extent, that auditing is self-contained. There may be a case for bringing such audits within the remit of the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which has vast experience and resources to deal with such issues.

Perhaps I could obtain a reply to my question on development charges. I am also seeking clarification on the following matter. A local authority imposes development charges on sites earmarked for further development. The value of a site situated, for example, near the Cork rail corridor following such development could increase significantly but if the site is sold the local authority cannot not recoup its investment, which goes to central Government. Can a fairer system be found in terms of assisting progressive local authorities?

I will reply in part to the question and my colleagues will deal with the remainder. As stated earlier, we are willing to pay our fair share. To achieve a fair system, one must first have transparency. As Deputy Cuffe said, we are not getting that. We are getting a stand and deliver type system from the local authorities. I can think of one example which involved our desire to construct, in Dublin, a building of the same type and structure as others and were asked for hundreds of thousands of euros for the privilege of doing so. It did not add one drop to the amount of rainwater gathered, nor did it change the roads or anything else. Common sense eventually prevailed but this required much work. If there were transparency and fairness regarding why certain moneys are requested, the benefits involved, what is being spent and what is regarded as a fair share of the business, one could then have a rational discussion with one's local authority in which one hopes sanity would prevail. The approach whereby local authorities say they want it, want it now and want it because they need it for specified reasons cannot be explained to anybody beyond where one is living — it just does not work. Perhaps that half answers the question. My colleagues may wish to add to what I have said.

Dr. Taylor

There is no problem with industry working with local authorities if the latter want to make an investment that will improve the circumstances of business in an area. I would certainly sit down with any local authority that could improve the efficiency of my company through investment. I am prepared to pay my share of it. I do not have a difficulty with that; the problem is that local authorities say what they are doing and dictate to people rather than talk to them. There is no difficulty in a local authority getting a return if the investment is made and there is a return thereon. I do not see any returns. We have been subject to huge increases but with absolutely no difference to the service we are receiving. The increases, as Mr. Butler pointed out, are cross-subsidising. They are not helping me at all, they are hurting me.

I am sorry I missed the delegates' presentation. I was obliged to attend the Order of Business in the Seanad.

As we all know, local government is an essential element in any democratic state and serves as the machinery by which very important services are provided in one's respective county. I was a member of a county council for 19 years and I was also general secretary of the Local Authority Members Association, the governing body for councillors. IBEC made presentations to that association while I was general secretary.

The delegates mentioned savings on the part of local authorities. I have felt annoyed for some time by over-administration in some local authority areas. I was a member of a local authority responsible for a population of 31,000, while those in Dublin are responsible for populations of 200,000. Under the better local government legislation that was introduced some years ago, the same structure is in place in the small local authorities as is in place in their larger counterparts. This structure provides for three or four directors of services, a director of finance and a county manager. Perhaps there is over-administration in certain areas.

The local authority in Longford has a very low rate base because it does not have enough industries to deliver funding from rates. Approximately 9% of its income comes from rates, whereas perhaps 65% of the income of local authorities in Dublin is derived therefrom. Regrettably, the smaller councils throughout the country are over-dependent on funding from central government. This has been demonstrated in the delegates' analysis of the various services delivered by the local authorities. Central government controls funding, as is recognised in IBEC's ten key factors. Point five explains that central government contributed to 63% of local authority current expenditure in 1993. By 2000, this fell to 44% and it has fallen much further in the past 12 months. Any director of finance of any local authority will tell one that.

It is important that IBEC take issue with the Government on the matter of financing. We all know it is inequitable and riddled with inconsistencies. Have the delegates any suggestions as to how a different system of funding local authorities could be introduced? Smaller local authorities throughout the country have waiver schemes in place. In this regard, my friend, Dr. Taylor, made a point on expectations regarding how he runs his business. Waiver schemes must be applied in respect of old age pensioners and the least well-off but businesses do not have to take these into account. We must look after the less well-off and the weaker members of the community. There is a social aspect to the local authority systems in addition to the other aspects. We must have systems in place to account for this. To address the increasing number of run-down houses in rural areas, one must provide the elderly with a facility to carry out essential repairs and one must issue disabled person's grants. There are many hidden services a local authority must provide to the elderly, particularly in the more rural counties. I note that rural counties featured as the worst in the report. In these counties, there are more roads to be taken care of and the authorities responsible therefor have a lower rate base.

There are problems in this area. The buck stops with the Government and it must deal with the issue. It abolished rates and water charges with the promise that it would adequately fund and deliver local authority services. It is regrettable that this has not happened because it has affected those in business, farming and industry. Everyone is affected by the inadequate funding of local authorities.

I will make an observation rather than ask questions. I also apologise for my late arrival. I was suffering from the same disposition as Senator Bannon.

On local authorities in general, a major issue arose in terms of their ill-prepared and very sloppy waste management strategies in recent times. As a consequence, they were suddenly faced with the harsh reality of compiling new strategies and, in some cases, they did a very rushed job. As Deputy Cuffe correctly pointed out, the days when rubbish was tipped into holes which were filled in thereafter fast came to an end. The local authorities were faced with the reality of compiling decent waste management strategies. The sloppy strategies that existed previously, and the lack of strategies in many areas, contributed to some extent to the circumstances that now obtain.

The decision-making ability to set domestic charges was the prerogative of councillors until recent times. Deputy Cullen, when he was Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, stripped one of the Acts to ensure it would no longer be their prerogative but the function of county managers. This has accorded overwhelming significance to the executive function and has further stripped the ability of local authority members under the reserved function. There is a clear axis of power in local government. It is in this regard that one could address, in a significant fashion, the issues raised by IBEC.

If the delegates want to talk about accountability and transparency, they need not consider the executives of local authorities because they involve people who are unelected and unaccountable. There is a lack of transparency in many cases. For example, if one rings a local authority and asks a simple question, one will be put on hold and then put through to various persons or told the person with whom one should be speaking is on holidays. It is absolutely unbelievable. If a private business offered an ordinary customer such shoddy service or demonstrated such a lack of customer service, it would not last very long.

As a member of Cork County Council, I made a point ad libitum on rates to the effect that the benefit to the ratepayer of paying them is not very clear. The ratepayer is paying for his water and his refuse collection and suffering from considerable increases annually but if he calls the fire brigade or another emergency service or requests a service after 5 p.m. or 6 p.m., he must pay through the nose for it. A clear question must be asked about the specific funding channelled towards the Exchequer from that particular source of income and the benefits must then be questioned. This is where the efficiencies argument applies. If there were performance indicators and real connections between the use of the money and the services that benefit therefrom in terms of effectiveness and efficiencies, there might be a happier outcome.

Recent increases in development charges have resulted in significant revenue for local authorities. In that context, I wish to refer to the example of one-off rural houses. In theory, development funding is used for the provision of footpaths, public lighting and crèches but I have not seen any evidence that this funding is being used for that purpose. In many cases, as public representatives from all sides will attest, an average one-off rural household in my area will pay charges of €2,000 to €2,500, which is a huge increase from the charge of £300 to £400 that applied in the past. The money raised through those charges has been amassed and the figures for this can be examined in the annual reports of the local authorities. The buildings are there and the permissions have been granted but what are the local authorities doing with the funding? That is the real issue.

If real and meaningful reform of local government had taken place, we would not have been obliged to engage in this debate. If the system was based on deliverance of local autonomy with regard to fund-raising, we would not be in this mess.

Deputy Kelleher raised the practical issue of the duty of councillors to pass their estimates and the political considerations that must be taken into account in this regard. I was a member of Dublin City Council for 19 years. Councillors annually tried to pass the estimates on 21 December but the process was often deferred to 1 or 2 January. The reality was that we wanted to get the estimates through and the easy option was to increase commercial rates. Has IBEC considered encouraging business people to stand in local elections? Councillors make the decisions and if business is not reflected on the councils, should IBEC encourage its members to run for local elections?

Mr. Butler

That is a valid point, which has been made to us on several occasions. Business representation on county councils is low and it is difficult to have one's voice heard if one is not at the table. That is the situation in which we find ourselves and why we believe this opportunity to present to the committee is so important. The committee has influence and the power to make a difference. Having one or two representatives on a county council might be successful on that particular council but it is unlikely to change the system. The members of this committee, as a group, have much greater influence in terms of the issues we discussed. However, the Chairman's point is valid.

Senator Bannon made another valid point in regard to waivers in that we must look after people who are vulnerable and under threat. However, the point we emphasise is that many businesses are vulnerable but they cannot apply for waivers and are obliged to pay. We have encountered situations where businesses were in terrible trouble and inquired whether they could withhold payment of their water bills. They were told that if they did so, their water would be cut off. Issues of equity, fairness and transparency arise, particularly as there is no way a business on its knees would be allowed to offset some of its costs.

The Chairman raised the issue of IBEC not encouraging members to stand for council seats. That is exactly what happened in Longford, where the chairman of Longford Chamber of Commerce stood for the council and is now an elected member. However, as reflected in the document circulated to us, he was not able to control a great deal.

Do the members of the delegation wish to make any concluding remarks?

Mr. Butler

We have not previously come before the committee in respect of this matter. We see it as a vital issue for Ireland, not just for business but also for employees and members of the public. We sincerely request that the committee include this issue as part of its ongoing work programme and give it priority. We are very happy to work with the committee to find solutions in terms of alternative methods and we hope that it would look on this as a serious issue.

What is the view of the delegation on a local sales tax, a measure implemented across Europe as well as in America?

Mr. Butler

We have support from nine or ten other organisations for the overall campaign. If we became involved in discussing the issue of a local sales tax, some of those organisations might fall off the list. That might indirectly answer the Senator's question.

The presentation is timely, having regard to the forthcoming Estimates and meetings of local authorities. The delegation raised interesting issues, given that this committee deals with local government as well as environment issues. In particular, I note the call for the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Committee of Public Accounts to become involved in the monitoring of the efficiency of local authorities. We will establish whether there is a role for the committee in monitoring this issue and will find how best we can be of assistance to IBEC in its endeavours. I thank IBEC and the industry representatives for their presentations.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.55 p.m. and adjourned at 4 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 17 November 2005.

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