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Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht debate -
Tuesday, 12 Nov 2013

Heads of Maritime Area and Foreshore (Amendment) Bill 2013: Discussion

An Bord Pleanála

We will now consider the outline heads of the Maritime Area and Foreshore (Amendment) Bill 2013. I welcome the witnesses from An Bord Pleanála: Ms Mary Kelly, chairperson, Mr. Des Johnson, director of planning, and Mr. Gerald Egan, director of corporate affairs. I thank them for attending.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement and any other documents witnesses have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Ms Kelly to address the committee.

Ms Mary Kelly

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee on the outline heads of the Bill. I am the chairman of An Bord Pleanála. I am accompanied by Mr. Des Johnson, director of planning, and Mr. Gerald Egan, director of corporate affairs.

An Bord Pleanála has kept itself apprised of developments in respect of the publication of the outline heads of the Bill and the developments leading up to it. The board is represented on an interdepartmental foreshore advisory group by one of our assistant directors of planning. We made a detailed submission to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government earlier this year in response to the consultation paper A New Planning and Consent Architecture for Development in the Marine Area. We also made a written submission to this committee. It expands on a number of points that I will make in my brief opening statement. We will be very happy to answer any questions members may have afterwards. In the written submission, we raised a number of technical issues that will need to be considered further at drafting stage. We will be talking to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government about them.

Let me deal with the key provisions of the Bill. As members are aware, the main ones relate to the alignment of the foreshore consent regime with the normal planning system; the creation of a new nearshore area as a subsection of the foreshore; the definition of an Irish maritime area encompassing foreshore; the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf; provision for the future designation of particular zones within the maritime area; the introduction of maritime options enabling project proponents to reserve a portion of the maritime area for a limited period while applying for the necessary development consents; the planning regulation of offshore commercial gas storage facilities by categorising such facilities as strategic infrastructure, with An Bord Pleanála as consent authority; and amendments to the Dumping at Sea Acts.

An Bord Pleanála welcomes the important initiatives introduced in the Bill for the maritime area in respect of strengthening the policy framework through mandatory objectives for the nearshore in statutory development plans, and also in simplifying and clarifying the development consent process. These initiatives will facilitate a plan-led approach and consistency in decision-making. The clear separation of the estate management or property management function, as exercised through foreshore leasing and licensing by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, and the development consent function, as exercised by planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála, will resolve potential conflicts between the interest of the State in seeking to maximise its revenue from the licensing of State property and the public interest in ensuring developments in the maritime area are acceptable in planning and environmental terms.

The board supports the principle of a proposed division of the development consent function between itself and the planning authorities. This division will allow for an efficient consent process, minimise duplication and provide certainty for prospective developers. For projects requiring an environmental impact assessment, EIA, or appropriate assessment, it is clear that the planning system is responsible for the carrying out of the relevant assessments under the EIA and habitats directives which must be completed before consent is given. These assessments are project based, and the provisions of the Bill facilitate their completion by a single authority, in this case An Bord Pleanála, in the planning regulatory system. Owing to the nature of applications for foreshore licences or leases, these will not require separate assessments under the EIA and habitats directives by the relevant Ministers. The board welcomes this clarification.

Other important initiatives include the definition in law of an Irish maritime area and the requirement for mandatory coastal zone management objectives to be included in development plans for development in the new nearshore area. The board regards these as very important provisions. The defining of an Irish maritime area could provide a national framework for the future production of a marine spatial plan or a series of marine spatial plans. In turn, this would further facilitate a plan-led approach to the development consent process and consistency in decision-making in the planning and licensing systems. Similarly, the requirement for coastal planning authorities to include mandatory objectives in their statutory plans for developments in the nearshore area should provide a strong policy framework for decision-making in the planning process.

On the subject of An Bord Pleanála as a key planning regulator in the existing foreshore process, under planning legislation the board already plays a key role in the regulation of development on the foreshore, namely in deciding on planning appeals against development consents on the foreshore that would have been issued by planning authorities and in deciding on local authority applications wholly or partly on the foreshore under sections 226 or 227 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. We have had the latter power since 2001 and have been exercising it. The board also has a role in deciding on other local authority applications that require an EIA or appropriate assessment and which are made directly to the board and in deciding on strategic infrastructure applications on land that are made directly to the board. We have been doing that for a number of years. The appeals and applications coming before the board for a decision vary greatly in their nature, scale and complexity. Many of them already require an EIA or appropriate assessment.

The Bill foresees an extended role for An Bord Pleanála in a new streamlined process. There is a new function in the assessment of offshore gas storage facilities.

Let me deal with the regulatory role proposed for An Bord Pleanála in the Bill.

We consider that An Bord Pleanála would be the appropriate consent authority as proposed in the Bill for many reasons, including the following. An Bord Pleanála has operated as a planning regulatory authority since 1977 and has a national remit. We operate a timely, coherent and transparent decision-making process for a wide range of development types varying in size and complexity, some of which I have just outlined to the committee. An Bord Pleanála has concluded 180 strategic infrastructure applications since the enactment of the 2006 Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act. We have developed extensive experience in determining planning appeals, many involving issues relevant to the foreshore. We also have experience in processing and deciding direct applications for large and complex proposals, many of which involve assessments under the European Environmental Impact Assessment and Habitats directives.

An Bord Pleanála has also nurtured and retained a broad range of skills, qualifications and technical knowledge in the planning and environmental fields among its inspectorate and administrative staff. We have a highly qualified planning inspectorate with expertise in areas such as EIA, AA and coastal zone management, all of which are relevant to the developments we are talking about here in the maritime area. We also have extensive experience in holding pre-application consultations, presiding over oral hearings and the assessment of complex planning issues, all of which are relevant to the issue before us today.

We in An Bord Pleanála broadly welcome the key provisions set out in the Bill. From what we can see, they will facilitate a plan-led approach to the future development of the maritime area, aligning the foreshore consent process with the planning system, reducing duplication in the consent framework, involving a single EIA, and providing for a single-stage development consent process both for onshore and offshore elements of strategic infrastructure projects with An Bord Pleanála as the consent authority.

We will be happy to take any questions that members of the committee may wish to ask.

I welcome the witnesses to the committee. Living in Dublin, I do not deal with maritime issues every day but it is the most important area in planning because we are all surrounded by water. In addition, it is relevant to the debate on wind energy so we must ensure that we get the maritime sector right.

What would be Ms Kelly's top priority if she had to pick out one thing that this Bill should do that has not been done to date? What changes need to be undertaken to protect the foreshore? Does Ms Kelly consider that the current planning legislation is strong enough to deal with the problem of coastal erosion? When planning permission is given there should be a legal onus on every property owner concerning the knock-on effects of erosion, including displacement. Can anything be done in legislative terms to that effect?

Yesterday, we saw the result of a major court case concerning rights of way at Lissadell House in County Sligo. Rights of way on the foreshore are historical, cultural and necessary because of the public's wish to walk along the shoreline. Sometimes a development may need to install security measures that could block off a right of way that has existed for a long time. What can be done in this regard following the outcome of yesterday's court decision? I suppose we will have to work around it. Historic rights of way should be safeguarded, however. Ms Kelly can correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that all foreshore areas constitute a right of way. Can extra safeguards be inserted in the legislation to state that X number of metres or kilometres should be added to ensure that in any foreshore development, or adjacent developments, rights of way are protected?

There is a lot of detail in the Bill to which I may revert with other questions later.

Ms Mary Kelly

The top priority from our point of view is to ensure that a coherent planning system is put in place for foreshore and offshore developments. That is what we said in our submission. We will be talking to the Department about detail but in broad terms the Bill does seem to put that coherence in place. It is particularly important to have one competent authority responsible for the environmental impact assessment or appropriate assessment.

The Senator is right to say that the heads of the Bill do not provide all the details. From what we can see, however, An Bord Pleanála is the competent authority and will deal with the environmental impact assessment. From the regulatory point of view and from the developer's point of view, that will bring a lot of certainty to the process. That is a very important point.

The Senator's second question concerned erosion which is currently the responsibility of the local authority and could be covered in development plans at that point. In addition, when an environmental impact assessment is undertaken that is the time at which all those kind of local environment issues could and would come into play. It probably comes into that sort of arena in the environmental impact assessment of foreshore development.

As regards my question on erosion, we all know that local authorities are strapped for cash. Sometimes the development contributions do not lend themselves to preserving the foreshore, even though it might not be in the curtilage or adjacent to it. Perhaps we could stitch in something like that so that every development must play its part in preventing coastal erosion.

Ms Mary Kelly

Without meaning to dodge the Senator's question, the board's role in terms of development contributions is a very restricted one. The local authority adopts a development scheme and our only role in terms of development contributions is to see whether a scheme, as it is agreed by the planning authority, is administered correctly. We cannot interfere with that. It is a function of the planning authority and not a role for An Bord Pleanála. We are very restricted in what we can do there.

Where erosion occurs in foreshore development, it is an issue that would arise in and be dealt with by the environmental impact assessment. It is one of the things that would have to come in at that stage.

And the rights of way?

Ms Mary Kelly

On the rights of way, I have not had a chance to look at yesterday's judgment. I just heard about it this morning. The Minister for Finance is currently the owner of the foreshore, so the right of way there is a matter for him. I have a feeling that is where the responsibility lies in that case.

I would like to welcome the representatives of An Bord Pleanála to the committee. I particularly welcome the idea of a single environmental impact assessment for major projects. There has been huge duplication involving environmental impact assessments, particularly in developing water, sewerage and drainage schemes. Public representatives in coastal counties can find it hard to get even a small sewerage scheme sanctioned because there are so many hoops to jump through.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine seems to have another impact assessment carried out. I am in a constituency without a coastal region but members in this room know that in coastal regions it is very difficult to have that single assessment. Could Ms Kelly explain how that works out?

Ms Kelly said earlier that An Bord Pleanála would be the appropriate consent authority. I presume most of the projects are dealt with by the local authorities. Where does An Bord Pleanála come in on consent? Ms Kelly talked about defining a maritime area. Will this cause further duplication with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? I presume that is the only other Department that would be involved. It is a complex area when one looks at fishing, aquaculture, ocean energy and tourism as well other developments such as wind energy.

We have major representations, particularly from the midlands, that wind turbines should be out at sea. I do not know Ms Kelly's views on that. Apparently in the midlands, the turbines have to be higher because of the flat terrain. There is a significant issue with energy that An Bord Pleanála is in a good position to deal with if it has a single impact assessment rather than the existing duplication. I do not know if that will work out because there are very strong interests in fisheries, fishing, tourism and aquaculture, and energy is very important. Huge meetings take place of people objecting to turbines, especially their location and distance from houses. There will be more pressure to have those turbines offshore. I support what Ms Kelly says and what is in the Bill but I am concerned about the practicality of it.

Ms Mary Kelly

As I identified, the single environmental impact assessment for major projects with one constant authority for the EIA is very important for everybody's sake. With duplication and two competent authorities, one can get confusion in the middle. There should be only one EIA. On water, sewerage and drainage, these requirements come to projects because of European legislation on EIAs, or appropriate assessments, AAs, if it is a habitats directive. They come in to protect the environment. Many people think it is a lot of red tape but its function is to protect the environment in general through EIAs, and specifically designated sites in terms of habitats. Most project developers understand EIA and appropriate assessment and know what is required and what they have to do. Most of the water, sewerage and drainage projects come with EIAs to An Bord Pleanála. The EIAs are usually well put together and very professional.

The heads of this Bill suggest the foreshore, the economic zone and the continental shelf will together be described as the maritime area. It will not be an extra thing but a designation. An Bord Pleanála will take responsibility, as consent authority, for anything that is designated strategic infrastructure in that area and anything that needs an EIA or an AA. That means An Bord Pleanála will be the single consent authority and this would include wind farms of a certain size and a number of other strategic projects. The local authority will be the consent authority for much smaller developments in the nearshore area, between the high and low tide marks. It is a big improvement to have one consent authority for all that.

I take Deputy Kitt's point about wind energy. There is much concern at local level around some of the big projects being proposed or promoted on land, and people on land say they should be put at sea. There is a long way to go before that plays out. While I cannot comment on individual projects before us, a strategic environmental assessment has been carried out on marine wind energy. If that is used to produce a marine spatial plan which designates areas that would be useful for wind, that would be very helpful and would give a structured approach to how we approach that. We are very lucky that we have a very good wind regime, both onshore and offshore. We could gain much economic benefit from that and it behoves everybody to try to do that. This Bill will be a step towards a very structured approach towards doing that.

My point on duplication was that one still has to go to another Department for a foreshore licence. Will that change under this legislation in order that we could have the licensing dealt with also by way of decision?

Ms Mary Kelly

This Bill specifies that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine will be in charge of the lease or licence. That is the property management side. One would still have to get a lease or licence from that Department but the entire planning and development consent will go completely to An Bord Pleanála for the bigger projects. There will be only one EIA with no duplication. The Minister who is giving the lease or licence, which is a property rights issue, will do that completely divorced from any environmental impact assessment which will be all done by An Bord Pleanála.

It will not all be done in the one Department.

Ms Mary Kelly

It will not. We do not have-----

There were suggestions that it might be done.

I thank the members of An Bord Pleanála for their presentation. Ms Kelly spoke about consistency and transparency in decision-making. Regarding major strategic works that are in the remit of An Bord Pleanála, is it a good idea that there be no input from local authorities with their local knowledge? What is An Bord Pleanála's engagement with local authorities regarding major schemes? Would An Bord Pleanála take on board the feeling of the local community and the local authority? Could Ms Kelly tell how the committee how An Bord Pleanála engages with elected Members such as ourselves regarding major infrastructural issues that might arise regarding openness, consistency and transparency? Perhaps it is my own fault but I feel there is a lack of communication, to put it mildly. How many times have we seen reports that planning permission had been granted or refused by a local authority but that An Bord Pleanála overturned that decision?

How do we explain to the public that the inspector has decided a project should not proceed but the board has allowed it to proceed or vice versa?

What is the board's definition of "foreshore"? We hear about onshore and offshore but where does foreshore begin and end?

I am party to a detailed submission on this. I am involved in the Save Our Seafront group and we raised a number of concerns about the Bill. I have also raised the issue of the Providence Resources oil rig application on the foreshore off Dublin Bay at the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions and I was referred back to this committee for discussion. I am, therefore, representing that committee's desire to discuss the issue as well.

There could not be more important legislation than this because we are an island nation. We have probably the highest ratio of coastal zone to land mass in Europe. At every level - cultural, environmental, economic, historic and so on - this is important. We all agree that the 1933 Act governing this area is inadequate and, therefore, the legislation needs to be streamlined and modernised. The current legislation is unacceptable because all the power is in the hands of the Department. Officials can sit on an application for as long as they like - six days, six months or six years - before making a decision on whether something can go ahead on the foreshore. That is unacceptable. There is no appeals process and we are dealing with sensitive and serious projects, particularly those relating to wind energy, oil rigs and so on.

Does streamlining mean making it easier for oil and energy companies to get big projects onto the foreshore and to get around environment impact statements and proper public consultation, as demanded by the Aarhus Convention, or will it result in a robust system of public consultation and protection? I worry that it will be former, not the latter, because of the three commitments in the programme for Government, which refer to streamlining, efficient foreshore licensing and getting resources onshore from offshore. There is no mention of the environment at all. Providence Resources had to withdraw its application to build an oil rig at a location unprecedentedly close to the foreshore because it was running seriously foul of European requirements for proper environmental impact assessment and there were major problems because of the negligible public consultation. The company placed one advertisement in one newspaper and a few signs in a number of Garda stations, which was a joke. All that was left at the whim of the Minister.

Will the Deputy put a question?

It is a detailed question. Providence Resources has a licensing option to explore further out from the shore but it was required specifically to make an application to put an oil rig on the foreshore. If the legislation is passed, will the company get around the requirement to conduct an environmental impact assessment relating to the oil rig because it has the licensing option for the entire area? Once one gets a licensing option and a general okay regarding the environmental impact assessment, then anything built relating to the project does not require a more specific assessment.

Will Ms Kelly comment on the public consultation aspect of this? There should be a normal planning process initially, an appeal process relating to the overall coastal zone and finally a proper appeals process governing everything.

Will Ms Kelly confirm there is no consultation between local authority and Oireachtas public representatives and An Bord Pleanála regarding decisions the board takes? I have had a number of cases in my constituency over the past number of years where people who have lived there for generations were refused planning permission because one person objected. The local authority had approved the planning application two or three times only for it to be refused on each occasion by An Bord Pleanála. These are deserving cases. I know the families well and they have been rejected by the board. I am fed up with it at this stage and I have little confidence in the board when I consider its track record in my constituency and the decisions that have been handed down over the past number of years. These people have lived on their own land for years and the local authority has granted planning permission but An Bord Pleanála has overturned the decision.

Our time is limited. We might invite Ms Kelly back to discuss the wider planning issue raised by Deputy McLoughlin. Perhaps she will address the questions raised by Deputies Coonan and Boyd Barrett.

Ms Mary Kelly

Deputy Coonan asked how local knowledge is taken into account for major strategic works. Something similar to the way we run our strategic infrastructure development currently for big projects on land is envisaged for offshore projects. It is a structured approach. A manager's report always comes to us as part of the planning application and councillors will have had an input into that. The application is made and every submission is taken into account in considering it. In general, there is a presumption that an oral hearing will be held for strategic infrastructure applications. That presents an opportunity for the public or anybody else, including the proposer of the project, to present their case and be cross-examined by the other side. There is a huge amount of public consultation at that point.

The board is a transparent organisation, as is the entire planning system. The contents of the application are on file, as are all the submissions, objections and the oral hearing. Everything is available in the board's offices for anybody to see. When we make a decision, the board takes into account all that has happened in the process and the decision is made on the basis of an inspector having investigated the entire project, sat through the oral hearing, asked questions of the developer and the third parties, put it all together and made a recommendation. Inspectors are required under the Act to make a recommendation to the board.

The board is a different set of people. The Oireachtas decided the decision would be made by the board and not by the inspector. The inspector makes a recommendation and the board decides on the basis of the inspector's report and all the other evidence in front of it what to do about the particular application. If the board disagrees with the inspector or moves away from his or her recommendation, the board is required by law to give reasons and considerations for doing so. It is a very open system and if one follows the paperwork, it is possible to see the reasons the board disagrees with the inspector. In the majority of cases the board will agree with the inspector.

The foreshore is defined in various parts of the documentation we received with the heads of the Bill. It is the area from the line of high water out to 12 miles offshore. The Bill defines a nearshore as the area from the high water mark to the low water mark. Local authorities will have jurisdiction in the nearshore and An Bord Pleanála will have jurisdiction in general beyond this. Sometimes, when they are connected, the local authority might continue to have jurisdiction. It is quite detailed.

Deputy Boyd Barrett will appreciate I cannot discuss a particular project. Some of my responses to Deputy Coonan may cover his questions also. Everybody is aware the 1933 Act, which predates the planning Act, is outdated and needs to be updated. The Deputy's concern is that streamlining might mean an easier journey for a developer. I do not believe this will be the case. It will mean a more streamlined and efficient process, but it should mean a comprehensive examination of the environmental impact of the project, whether it be a big wind energy project or oil exploration. Some responsibility for oil exploration will remain with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

An environmental impact assessment is a very comprehensive document and the board takes its responsibilities in respect of examining environmental impact statements extremely carefully. When the board makes a decision on a project requiring an environmental impact statement, the board must conduct the environmental impact assessment. The board must sign off on having done the environmental impact assessment, and on the basis of the evidence in front of it, that it concluded it would not have a significant effect on the environment. We do not take this lightly. We examine all the environmental issues before us in as much depth as we can and we go into great detail. Environmental impact assessments and appropriate assessments, which are more specific if a special area of conservation or a European designated site is involved, take up an increasing amount of our time at board meetings and are likely to continue to do so. I do not believe it will mean an easier ride for anybody. Having one competent authority which is expert in conducting environmental impact assessments will give a very coherent approach to the environmental impact assessment of all these projects.

Will Ms Kelly speak about the public consultation and appeal elements and specific protections for the foreshore as distinct from areas further out?

Ms Mary Kelly

Part of the environmental impact assessment process takes into account public submissions. It is a very structured approach. There are public notices and submissions are received. There is an oral hearing at that stage and there is full participation in the environmental impact assessment process. It is completely in line with the Aarhus convention and we must ensure it is. If this goes through and we are the competent authority in the foreshore area, we will conduct very rigorous environmental impact assessments with full public consultation, oral hearings and all that goes with it.

There is no appeal process in the strategic infrastructure development cases we deal with on land at present and the board is the authority of first and last consent. There is provision for judicial review. An Bord Pleanála is a one-stop shop with regard to receiving an application and making a decision.

I would like an answer to my query.

The purpose of this meeting is to consider the heads of the maritime area and foreshore (amendment) Bill 2013. The Deputy has raised pertinent issues with regard to planning, and perhaps in our 2014 work plan we will invite An Bord Pleanála before the committee to discuss those specific issues, if the Deputy agrees.

An Bord Pleanála might not come back after today.

Ms Mary Kelly

We will.

I thank the witnesses. We will suspend for a few minutes and resume with the next set of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 1.37 p.m. and resumed at 1.41 p.m.

Coastal and Marine Research Centre

We are in public session and will continue our discussion on the outline heads of the maritime area and foreshore (amendment) Bill 2013. I pay a special welcome to Mr. Jeremy Gault, director, and Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan of the Coastal and Marine Research Centre, CMRC. I thank them for their attendance. I will get a little technical and mention privilege for witnesses, so they should bear with me for a minute or two.

I wish to draw witnesses' attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise witnesses that their opening statements may be published on the committee's website after the meeting has concluded.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Mr. Gault.

I wish to ask a quick question. I must run somewhere for a few minutes at 2 p.m. How long will the opening statements last?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

Four minutes and 30 seconds.

Mr. Jeremy Gault

My name is Jeremy Gault and I am the director of the Coastal and Marine Research Centre, which is a part of Beaufort Research at University College Cork. I am joined by my colleague, Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan, who is also from UCC and a member of the Hydraulics and Maritime Research Centre, HMRC, of the Beaufort Research community. We thank the committee for inviting us to participate in this hearing.

In terms of our backgrounds, my principal training was in mining petroleum engineering. I have postgraduate qualifications in researching marine resource management and coastal geomorphology, that is, erosion and accretion, if members wish to be specific. Dr. O'Hagan has worked extensively in foreshore licensing and coastal management and provides a unique background in an Irish context, as she has qualifications in environmental science, planning and coastal governance. She has topped these with a fourth and, she claims, final degree in law.

We have approximately 90 members of the coastal and marine research centre covering a range of disciplines from computer science to engineering to zoology. Our work is funded through a combination of competitively won funding from national, European and international programmes, industry-sponsored projects and direct industry contracts. We conduct fundamental so-called blue skies research and applied industry-relevant research and work with virtually every marine research centre across the EU as well as other international centres.

As part of our research, we work in partnership with Departments and agencies, regional and local authorities and key sectors, including fisheries, aquaculture, oil and gas, marine renewable energy, tourism and leisure, and conservation. We have examined spatial issues with industry and other stakeholders, including environmental NGOs and the public, and cross-cutting issues such as adaptation to climate change, pollution, security and provision and use of data and information. Given our background, we hope we can present an objective view of the definite need for revision and some of the potential difficulties posed by the draft legislation.

It is generally recognised that the 1933 Act is outdated and unsuited to modern maritime usage. Therefore, we warmly welcome the decision to review the Foreshore Acts and associated legislation but caution that this initiative could be interpreted as an attempt to streamline the process for large-scale development only. We are not adverse to streamlining the process, but it cannot be for large-scale development alone. The new Bill is essential if we are to meet the Government's ambitious national targets as defined under Harnessing Our Ocean Wealth and at EU level through the integrated maritime policy and blue growth agenda while maintaining our environmental integrity.

At European level, integrated coastal management, ICM, and maritime spatial planning, MSP, are being advocated as the preferred approaches to maritime governance. This is evidenced by the publication of a proposal for a framework directive on MSP and ICM in March of this year. While this is still subject to debate, the directive would make MSP and ICM mandatory if adopted in its present form. As such, member states would be obliged to produce and implement the MSP plans and ICM strategies. Until such time as this directive is adopted, Ireland will be under no obligation to develop a national maritime spatial plan. A national plan should be put in place, because otherwise, activities will be regulated only through the consenting processes, the procedural aspects of which are contained in this Bill. This would result in efforts being focused on consenting rather than on improving management and reducing conflict or potential conflict. In our experience, effective integrated management requires a strategy that includes all maritime and coastal activity, coupled with effective consenting legislation, if it is to succeed.

Any consenting legislation must cover all sectors. Therefore, we are discouraged by the omission of sea fisheries and aquaculture from the Bill. This will only cause problems and reinforce existing divisions instead of encouraging co-operation between sectors. This appears short-sighted when a more integrated decision-making is being recognised and advocated nationally and internationally through policies.

To reduce pressure and maximise the use of our maritime resources, we should consider the co-location of activities, for example, aquaculture and tidal energy. This would require one multifunction licence for one site instead of a series of licences associated with each location.

While the Bill is a good start, and without wishing to slow the current process, key aspects need further refinement if it is to be implemented effectively. To demonstrate this, we have selected some issues as examples, grouped under jurisdiction, responsibilities and mapping-charting, as per our submission. Regarding the issue of responsibility, which relates to heads 3 and 20, we know An Bord Pleanála has been tasked with consenting responsibility for certain classes of proposed development, with responsibility for certain other proposed activities given to local authorities. For both sets of entities, there is a capacity implication, as their experience and expertise have historically focused on terrestrial planning and development. It is debatable whether this deficit can be closed from the existing terrestrial planning community. Therefore, the capacity gap may need to be closed by employing external consultants. Different approaches could be adopted at county level, leading to confusion among stakeholders. Given the board's extended role, it is unclear what the future is, if any, for the Marine Licence Vetting Committee, which has traditionally provided cross-disciplinary scientific and technical input into decisions on foreshore licences and leases.

In terms of jurisdictions, a new marine area comprising the territorial seas and the exclusive economic zone, EEZ, is consistent with key EU legislation on the environment, specifically relating to birds, habitats, Natura 2000 and the marine strategy framework directive. It should be noted that there is a lack of agreed delimitation with the UK and France on fisheries, the EEZ and territorial sea limits. This could create operational issues for enforcement agencies, such as the Irish Naval Service. In addition, there are no international maritime boundaries in the Border bays, those being, Foyle and Carlingford. Although the Good Friday Agreement gave the Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission, through the Loughs Agency, certain competencies in these areas, its powers do not extend to cover all activities.

The legislation will result in changes to boundaries, a matter inherently linked to mapping and charting. Currently, the legal high water mark is taken from large-scale Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSi, maps, namely, the six-inch maps that date from the 1800s and 1900s. There have been a number of delays and, more seriously, court cases relating to jurisdiction and functional authority as a result of the boundaries as marked on those maps.

We have cited Lisfannon marina in County Donegal as an example. There are also implications in key Government functions, such as calculation of rates, land valuation and effective assessment and management of coastal change, such as erosion or accretion. Technically, there is a disparity between admiralty charts and ordnance survey maps, which can be difficult to align because they have different functions, with differences in key attributes such as coastline and high water mark between the two sources. Admiralty charts are produced on historical surveys, some of which date back to the early 1800s and 1900s.

These are some examples of key considerations but there are other aspects of the Bill which require further thought. These include: head 7, dealing with the content of the development plan; head 11, dealing with the disapplication of compensation provisions; head 13, the partial disapplication of development levies provisions; head 20, dealing with local authority regulation of certain activities in the nearshore area and on the foreshore; and head 24, dealing with the designation of shellfish waters. We welcome the idea of a revision nonetheless, and it should not be an obstruction to development. Development should be done in a sustainable manner, as that is what integrated coastal management is about. If the members wish to discuss any submission points or what I have raised this afternoon, Dr. O'Hagan and I would be happy to oblige.

I thank the witnesses for the presentation and I wholeheartedly agree with the closing sentiment that we need development in the marine area that is sustainable. What is the witness's view on whether this Bill ensures the sustainability aspect in the full sense of the word? This follows on from the questions I asked the people from An Bord Pleanála.

Does the witness have any concern in this regard? I should qualify everything I say by indicating that replacing the 1933 Act is a good move, as is moving the process out of what is essentially ministerial diktat into a proper planning process people can understand as transparent. Have we got all the environmental protections and an open system where people can be consulted and participate in decisions that will affect local communities, stakeholder groups and people with an interest in the marine area? The witness has raised some concerns and I have taken note of them.

Following my earlier point, is there a lack of specific protection for the foreshore because of the creation of one zone being spoken about with this proposed legislation, if I understand it correctly? It is said that this is to avoid unnecessary duplication but I am concerned that this could mean the particular need to protect the foreshore area, which is more sensitive in many ways, could face a potential problem. What is Mr. Gault's opinion? Streamlining can work both ways. If I understand the proposed legislation correctly, local authorities are out of the picture for anything outside the low and high water mark, and responsibility goes to An Bord Pleanála. I am concerned about that, as the potential democratic input at a local level could be reduced. I want to strengthen rather than weaken the capacity of local communities to have a say in matters that affect them. I understand there are issues beyond the local, of which we must certainly be cognisant.

I wonder if we would be better to have a three-phase process. In Dún Laoghaire, for example, the council wants to build a small jetty at the Dún Laoghaire baths, which is fine. That could be dealt with at a local level, although I am unsure as to whether it would come in under the high and low water mark. It probably would. Could this be deemed part of the foreshore and be the responsibility of somebody else? It seems there is a major difference between a small jetty and an oil rig, as one has massive implications not just for local communities but also wider coastal zone management. A small jetty from which people can swim does not really have a major implication. What is Mr. Gault's opinion?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

I may ask Dr. O'Hagan to answer on this as well. We would like to see the planning system in the marine as either part of or adding to the terrestrial planning system. Why create a new version, as that seems odd? There is no problem with having due diligence as far as environmental aspects are concerned. Public participation, as noted by the Deputy, is unclear in the Bill. From everybody's perspective, regardless of which side of the environmental or development fence they sit, we need clarity and transparency. People want to see how this will be done.

People want a single entry point in order to get a decision in a time-bound system, meaning they will not have to wait around. Everybody would much rather have a concise and quick decision rather than a much longer "maybe". It is about spatial management, and I disagree slightly with the Deputy with regard to scale. It does not really matter what is being put in the environment and it should be able to go through a process in any case. There may be extra elements to be put in place with a specific operation but the same process should be used. Issues regarding the high and lower water mark also regard a question of scale. Local authorities would deal with a smaller scale. Our concern is related to competency, as the marine environment is difficult. When people speak of high and low water marks, they are different every day, and they move because the coast erodes and accretes. Nobody seems to speak of accretion, when there is an addition of land, and everybody talks about erosion, which occurs when land is lost. The environmental systems seem to be in place.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

Since adoption of the Strategic Infrastructure Development Act, there has been criticism because of a lack of public participation or an appeal process, as people are automatically drawn to courts. There is also the treatment of local authorities essentially as statutory consultees as opposed to people with local knowledge and the ability to make a decision on a project. If we are putting effort into adding to the strategic infrastructure development regime, perhaps we should invest more time in the Act and try to solve some of the problems identified with it.

With regard to specific protection of the foreshore, unless there is a designation in the Bill in the form of a special area of conservation or special protection area, the area would not deserve any different attention. Unless it comes under a separate European designation it will not be treated differently to any other area.

Is the witness concerned about that? For example, in Norway there is a specific greater level of protection for the foreshore area, covering 22 km. That country views the foreshore as requiring greater and more robust protection than what is further out. I have a concern, which seems to be reinforced by the witnesses, that the specific protection for the foreshore is not included in this Bill, which could be problematic in cases involving oil rigs on the foreshore, for example.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

It could be, but in that case one must put faith in the environmental impact assessment process and hope it will solve any potential problems. Issues would be subject to assessment under that directive.

If I heard them correctly, the witnesses are somewhat concerned by the vagueness or lack of clarity around public consultation and the lack of an appeal.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

Yes, definitely.

I apologise for being late and welcome the two witnesses. I come at this from a small disadvantage as I live in the only county in Ireland that does not touch a county touching the sea. The Chairman is half way into the Atlantic where he lives and Deputy Boyd Barrett looks out over Dún Laoghaire bay. I am not that fortunate as I live in County Laois, and what I know of the sea is limited enough.

The objective of the Bill is to align the foreshore consent system with the terrestrial planning system, which means the current planning system. Will the witness explain that from the An Bord Pleanála point of view? There will be a single EIA for every major project. Would it not be people's understanding at present that there would be a single EIA for every major project? It also seeks to provide for a coherent mechanism to facilitate and manage the development of the economic zone. I take it that it deals with the sea surrounding this part of the island as one unit. Will the witness discuss that?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

I forgive the Deputy his terrestrial constituency. Anything we put in the offshore must always be connected to the onshore. If it is oil and gas, it is a pipeline; if it is renewable energy, it is an electrical cable; if it is aquaculture, it brings the product back to market. There is a definite connection between the land and the maritime.

On the specific question, I will ask Dr. O'Hagan to clarify An Bord Pleanála's role as proposed under this legislation.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

The strategic infrastructure regime as it applies on land gives nationally strategic projects to An Bord Pleanála to consent. Essentially, this legislation proposes that major infrastructure developments in the marine environment, from the low water mark to the 200 mile limit, go to An Bord Pleanála to consent.

What is the low water mark?

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

It is the lowest point of tide 200 miles out to sea. It is all one unit. It is what is traditionally the foreshore, plus the territorial seas, plus the exclusive economic zone, which are all different.

It is everything bar Rockall.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

Yes, all bar Rockall. It does not include the continental shelf.

With regard to a single regime, at present if one has a development which overlaps the terrestrial and the marine environment, there are two separate processes. One could end up in a situation where one is conducting two environmental impact assessments and two appropriate assessments, AA. This legislation seeks to make An Bord Pleanála the competent authority and have one assessment, be it EIA or AA. That is essentially what is meant by streamlining.

In respect of the scale of a project, there was a reference to major projects, the AA and a major strategic environmental impact assessment, SEIA, while Deputy Boyd Barrett talked about a small marina. At what point on the scale does one make the judgment that something needs an SEIA?

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

The Bill does not specify that at present, and there has been a great deal of debate over what constitutes strategic. The legislation must be very clear about that, even for local authorities. If they are described as small scale developments, what is small? There definitely must be more clarity on that.

In the current situation is it the relevant county council that deals with maritime planning, for example, Clare County Council?

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

Jurisdiction for local authorities in the marine has always been very complicated. Legally, their jurisdiction goes to the high water mark, even though they presume a management role-----

Is that the deepest part?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

No, it is closest to land.

In other words, it is the beach.

Mr. Jeremy Gault

It is the start of the beach.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

It is the top of the beach.

It is the most inland part of the beach.

Dr. Anne Marie O'Hagan

Yes.

We will be dealing with the issue of wind turbines and wave power over the next few years. Some reports say this could be very exciting and that there is huge potential for the State, with huge benefits if it can be done. Is this Bill important for some of the projects being discussed in terms of ensuring that if it is sustainable development, it can happen? Do the witnesses have any concerns about it in respect of, for example, large-scale offshore wind farms or offshore wave energy projects? That issue is one of the three matters I wished to raise.

The second relates to the oil and gas industry. There has been some promising drilling off the south coast, near where the Chairman lives. I hear you will strike oil there soon, Chairman. There is talk, and I do not know how realistic it is, that some of the exploration will have some good results. The other issue is salmon farming. Will there be a stronger regime to deal with all of that? Would it become very cumbersome, as the legislation is now framed, and is it likely that it might hold up some of those things unduly, or do the witnesses think it might be too slack in some areas and that some projects that are a little dodgy environmentally might be waved through?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

There are two major global issues, food security and energy security. The Deputy touched on both. With regard to energy security, Ireland has huge potential, probably from renewables but also in oil and gas. We definitely have lots of offshore energy in the marine area. In terms of managing it, we would like to see the management of that in conjunction with other users. This Bill does not deal with aquaculture, so it is not designed to do that. That is strange. It should deal with all the maritime users.

Why is it strange? Do the witnesses think it should deal with aquaculture?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

Yes. Why would it not? If it is spatial management of the marine resource, one should manage for the best. What one should try to do is put in the best industry possible for the marine area. One should look at it and assess what would be best based on a number of factors, including the environment, the economy and societal acceptance. People were talking previously about wind energy being unacceptable on land, but consider what happens when it is moved offshore. The Arklow Bank Wind Park is clearly visible from the shore, and people do not like that either. Wind farms are marmites, one either likes them or one does not. There is no in-between. One must accept there is still a visual impact of having wind energy in the offshore environment as well. Does that answer the Deputy's questions?

Does the witness think aquaculture should be brought under the remit of the Bill?

Mr. Jeremy Gault

It is back to how one defines nature. Aquaculture is a huge global industry. It is a necessary global industry because we need it for food. It does not have the headline news value of oil or gas or even renewable energy, but we do, and will, need aquaculture. It is a very emotive subject and leads to much conflict, as one can see at present. Those users are not included. As I said in the opening statement, it must be comprehensive where everyone can apply to the same system. There might be different scales or perhaps held in different ways, but why not aquaculture and fisheries?

I thank Mr. Gault and Dr. O'Hagan for assisting us with our deliberations. When one comes from a maritime constituency one understands the complexities involved. I served in a local authority and on its coastal management committee. I was also a spokesperson on the marine and dealt with the issue of aquaculture licences. I consistently point out that this is an island nation, but sometimes we tend to forget that. In west Cork people say "I was on Cape Clear" or "I was on Sherkin" or "I was on the islands", but we are on an island 24/7. There is vast complexity around that. As a public representative I was involved in cases of applications for planning permission in the coastal area of west Cork and one begins to understand the sheer volume of complexity people are dealing with. It is a privilege to meet people who are expert in that area, because one always ends up discovering something new.

I thank you most sincerely for your input and wish you well for the future.

We will suspend the sitting for a few minutes and resume with the representatives of Clare County Council.

Sitting suspended at 2.10 p.m. and resumed at 2.13 p.m.

Clare County Council

We are about five minutes ahead of schedule. Táimid arís i seisiún poiblí. I welcome Mr. Tom Coughlan, County Manager, Clare County Council and thank him for his attendance. I shall read out the technicalities on privilege and witness testimony.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement and any other documents witnesses have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Mr. Coughlan to address the committee.

Mr. Tom Coughlan

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to make the submission to the committee. I present myself to the committee as County Manager of Clare County Council. I am also the chairman of the Land Use and Transportation Committee of the County and City Managers' Association. Therefore, some issues will relate to the CCMA and others will relate to Clare County Council. I have also supplied a copy of the CCMA submission to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government regarding a new planning and consent architecture for development in the marine area.

The submission made by the managers' association, and my own submission, welcomes the proposal to reform the current foreshore licensing-leasing consent system. That is the main issue of concern for local authorities. There are a number of issues of concern about the current system that I hope that the new Act will address, to some extent. It was interesting to hear the previous discussion. Some of the issues discussed were a lack of a plan-led approach; a lack of integration between sea-based activities and the planning system; serious delays in issuing licences-leases; no statutory timeframe for the consent process; duplication of requirements, such as the fact that one needs planning permission and foreshore consent; inactive leases sterilising areas; and a lack of enforcement. Such a situation leads to a disconnected system and acts as an impediment to investment and development in the marine area. The previous discussion referred to the potential wealth that can be generated by the marine sector, particularly in the aquaculture and energy areas. That is something that we are very conscious of in Clare County Council.

I welcome the aim of the proposed Bill, to align the foreshore consent system with the planning system. I also welcome the fact that the Bill intends to legislate for a single environmental impact assessment or appropriate assessment for major projects to be carried out by a single authority, An Bord Pleanála.

I note that the Bill contains a proposal to define a near-shore area and that the day-to-day management of a near-shore area will be assigned to local authorities with the exception of a development that requires an EIA or an appropriate assessment. However, the proposed territorial definition of the near-shore area is between the high water mark and the low water mark. That means that local authorities will have a limited role in terms of development and activity beyond the outer limit of the near-shore area. That means the edge of the near-shore area and the 12 mile limit.

It is envisaged that certain developments currently dealt with under section 225 of the Planning and Development Act will remain the responsibility of local authorities, even if they straddle the low water mark, such as pier and marina developments not requiring EIA and AA. The Bill anticipates that local authorities could be assigned responsibility for certain activity and development entirely beyond the low water mark. That would be pretty minor type development such as the deployment of navigation aids or research devices on or within the near-shore.

It is accepted that An Bord Pleanála and planning authorities should be the main consenting authorities associated with planning and development applications in the marine environment, with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, overseeing the estate management aspects of the process. Clare County Council and the CCMA consider that the planning authorities should be the consenting authorities for planning applications in the foreshore area, as distinct from what is provided for in Bill. The Bill provides that local authorities would only be the consenting authorities for planning applications in the nearshore area.

With regard to the structure, An Bord Pleanála would then be responsible for the following - the assessment of applications for developments within the exclusive economic zone, beyond the 12 mile limit; strategic infrastructure as defined in the planning legislation in the foreshore; local authority development that requires an EIS or Natura impact statement; and appeals for all development within the foreshore other than the strategic infrastructure or local authority development that requires an EIS. Local authorities are responsible for all other applications for development in the foreshore area including the near-shore area. That forms the basis of the submissions. It makes sense that local authorities, in keeping with the Government policy outlined in Putting People First and giving more functions to local authorities, should have the role of determining consent applications for the foreshore area and the near-shore area.

The role of consenting authority could be undertaken by an individual local authority or, where necessary, local authorities. Alternatively, a single local authority or local coastal authority could be identified as the lead authority to deal with applications that traverse the jurisdiction of a number of planning authorities.

I shall comment on resources for planning applications. Obviously there could be resource implications if local authorities took on the responsibility. We consider that applications for development consent or permits on the foreshore and in the exclusive economic zone should reflect the level of resources required. That is in keeping with the recommendations of the efficiency review group of local authorities and local government, that we charge economic fees.

As envisaged in the Bill, responsibility for the day-to-day maintenance of the nearshore area could be assigned to local authorities regarding permitting activities by the introduction of new or existing by-laws that provide for the requirement to obtain permits for events with amenity value and activities such as filming, non-invasive site investigations, temporary moorings, seaweed harvesting of a minor nature or the deployment of scientific instruments and sample collection for research purposes.

I note that the Bill referred to enforcement. The CCMS recommends that enforcement in the foreshore area should be a matter for local authorities.

With regard to the general development of the maritime area and foreshore, and referred to in the previous discussion today, a plan-led system should provide a framework for planning decisions, rather than planning applications and consents for permission being dealt with on an ad hoc basis. We feel that there should be a plan-led approach. That would facilitate the development of the potential wealth of the marine environment in a planned, efficient and sustainable manner. The strategic integrated framework plan for the Shannon estuary will be published later this month and could provide a framework for such a plan-led approach. The plan's objective is to balance the economic development potential of the estuary with a need to protect the environment and is the first of its kind.

In summary, I welcome the proposed approach of the Bill to align the foreshore consent system with the planning system. I suggest that an enhanced role could and should be assigned to local authorities in the context of foreshore licensing and development consent. As I said, the enhanced role would be in accordance with Government policy on the strengthening of local government as set out in the Government's policy document entitled Putting People First.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make my presentation and trust that it will assist the committee in its consideration of the Bill.

I thank Mr. Coughlan.

I thank Mr. Coughlan for his presentation. It was good to hear the view of a local authority executive. I come from an inland country and ask him to further explain the enhanced role that local authorities can play in terms of licensing and development consent. I listened to his presentation and gathered that a plan-led approach is desired which is similar to county development plans that take into consideration the economic, social and environmental aspects of an area. Let us take the County Clare coast as an example and say that there is an integrated plan that will span a ten-year period. In that case the local authority would state its vision and set out its scope.

This includes taking into consideration the social, economic and environmental aspects. Perhaps Mr. Coughlan can elaborate on that. Mr. Coughlan mentioned a serious delay in issuing licences and leases. Perhaps we can have a short explanation of the current situation.

Mr. Tom Coughlan

Taking the last point first, the delay has been noted and commented upon, particularly in respect of large-scale potential developments. I am aware of one in particular, in the Shannon Estuary, where a long delay in a foreshore licence application has cast doubt on the future investment and development of the project. We cannot afford to have delays. If a potential investor wants to invest in the Shannon Estuary or in the marine sector, we must be able to respond quickly. Potential investors and developers have made me aware that they can go to Scotland and get quick responses to applications, which is an incentive for them to invest in Scotland rather than Ireland. From that point of view, it is important that delays are kept to a minimum.

With regard to the plan-led approach, Deputy Stanley's comment summarises my point exactly. We prepare terrestrial development plans for our functional areas but not marine development plans for our marine areas. It is becoming apparent that the marine area is important and that there is substantial development potential in marine. The west coast of Clare has been identified as one of the two hotspots in terms of wave energy and wave energy potential. The other hotspot is Belmullet, County Mayo. We are anxious to drive development but it must be done in a sustainable way and we must have regard to the environmental impact.

That is why I referred to the strategic infrastructure framework plan integrated for the Shannon Estuary. The objective of the plan is to balance development potential with the fact that the Shannon Estuary is a protected area through European designation. It took a year and a half or two years to get through the process of preparing the plan. There are 19 partners, including the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Marine Institute the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Office of Public Works. These were the public sector organisations and agencies that had a vested interest in the development of the Shannon Estuary or in its protection. That is the scale of complexity when dealing with the marine environment, as referred to by the previous speaker. We must have a plan-led approach. We cannot adopt an ad hoc approach to the development of the marine sector. In my presentation, I referred to the lack of a plan-led approach and the need for same.

If a small-scale testing facility were to be developed, it would not require an environmental impact assessment. Under the proposed Bill, if it was outside the nearshore area, the application would have to go to An Bord Pleanála. That is the kind of application local authorities could deal with. We have one on the way in County Clare and I hope we see many more. A local authority could deal with that application rather than having to send the developer to An Bord Pleanála. Generating support for projects is necessary because sometimes the local community reacts with concern and fear of the unknown to a potential renewable energy development offshore. It is useful that local councillors and officials can provide assurance to local people that this is something worth considering and that a planning application can go to the local authority rather than An Bord Pleanála, which is located far from the people with concerns. It is usually easier to get the message across that this may not be a bad thing and to get local support, which is important.

The county manager cited a problem of inactive leases sterilising areas. Can he elaborate on this and how they sterilise areas? He also mentioned he prefers to see consent applications dealt with by local authorities. I do not mean to misinterpret Mr. Coughlan. Can he give examples of consent applications, how they differ and how they differ in concrete terms from applications that must be made to An Bord Pleanála?

Mr. Tom Coughlan

Applications to An Bord Pleanála should be those that require an environmental impact statement. That is straightforward. It is what is proposed in the Bill. There is a difference between what I am suggesting and what is proposed in the Bill. It is not just development in the nearshore area that requires an environmental impact statement that must go to An Bord Pleanála but also development in the foreshore area, which is beyond the nearshore area. An application that does not require an environmental impact statement, in the foreshore area, could be dealt with by local planning authorities rather than having to go to An Bord Pleanála. If it does not require an environmental impact statement in a marine environment, it is probably a small-scale development that could be developed and dealt with by the local authority.

With regard to consent, I welcome head 21 of the Bill because it deals with a process whereby permission can be given by the local authority for particular activities to be carried out on the foreshore. To a certain extent, it deals with minor licence issues. Local authorities cannot make by-laws in regard to the regulation of the foreshore and the nearshore. I welcome that. There is a mechanism for dealing with smaller permits rather than smaller developments. I am concerned about the smaller developments going to An Bord Pleanála.

What about the point about inactive leases sterilising an area?

Mr. Tom Coughlan

The issue was raised at the County and City Managers' Association. I do not have examples with me. A number of managers raised the issue of potentially sterilising an area because leases had been issued but developers did not follow up planning applications. I welcome the proposal in the Bill for a maritime option in order that potential developers are given options that are time bound. A planning application must be made subsequently or the developers lose the option.

With regard to county development plans, does Mr. Coughlan envisage areas being zoned for wave energy, offshore wind energy and fish farming in the same way as areas in the county development plan are zoned as suitable for wind energy? Does Mr. Coughlan envisage going to that level of detail?

Mr. Tom Coughlan

I am acutely aware that a local authority cannot zone a marine area. It is something we considered in the context of the Shannon Estuary. We can identify particular areas. If a matrix of criteria are applied to a particular area, in terms of the surface of the seabed, the operation of the fishing industry, the presence of undersea cables or undersea lines and whether it is a navigation route, we can then identify that because the area is not used for navigation, it is suitable for the development of aquaculture. If the sea floor in a particular area is suitable for a different type of development, that can be done. It can be done by applying the matrix to it. The water will not be zoned but one can identify the potential of particular areas. I referred to the fact that areas of the west coast of Clare have been identified by the private sector as being particularly suitable for wave energy projects. It was done on the basis of a matrix being applied.

I thank Mr. Coughlan for his assistance in our deliberations on the heads of the Bill.

Sitting suspended at 2.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.50 p.m.

Environmental Protection Agency

We will continue our discussion on the outline heads of the Maritime Area and Foreshore (Amendment) Bill 2013. I welcome from the Environmental Protection Agency Mr. Dara Lynott, deputy director general; Dr. Karen Creed, senior inspector, environmental licensing programme; and Dr. Tara Higgins, inspector, environmental licensing programme. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement and any other document delegates have submitted to the committee may be published on its website after the meeting.

I invite Dr. Lynott to address the committee.

Mr. Dara Lynott

I thank the Chairman for giving us the opportunity to address the joint committee. We submitted our opening statement and supporting documentation in advance of the meeting and they are available for publication. I am joined by Dr. Karen Creed and Dr. Tara Higgins. At the end of our opening statement, we will be happy to answer questions committee members may have.

By way of background, the Environmental Protection Agency assumed responsibility on 15 February 2010 for the regulation of dumping at sea activities in accordance with the Foreshore and Dumping at Sea (Amendment) Act 2009. On assuming responsibility for dumping at sea activities, we undertook a detailed review of the existing legislation and the powers included therein. Following this review, we established a dumping at sea advisory committee under section 41 of the EPA Act of 1992 to advise the EPA on the technical and administrative implementation of its functions under the dumping at sea Act. The advisory committee meets as required and includes nominated representatives from relevant State bodies, including the Marine Institute, Inland Fisheries Ireland and the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority; from industry, including the Irish Ports Association; and from the NGO sector such as the Irish environmental pillar. Committee members have expertise in fisheries, biology, ecology, chemistry, oceanography, navigation, commerce and engineering.

Copies of all of our permit applications, submissions and correspondence, inspectors' reports and permits are all publicly available and published on our website. To reduce cost and increase flexibility the EPA issues multi-annual permits that are not specific to particular vessels. This has allowed for more cost-effective planning and management of the sector. Previously, specific vessels were named; therefore, anyone wanting to use a different vessel needed a new permit. Permits were also only issued for one year.

In dealing with the body of work transferred to the EPA we have identified activities that no longer require a dumping at sea permit such as beach nourishment and have moved to tonnage-based application fees. The agency has adopted a risk-based approach to the enforcement of dumping at sea permits. The aim is to improve compliance with environmental legislation in Ireland. We have investigated and prosecuted instances of unauthorised dumping activities under the legislation. One of the issues which came to light during our initial review of the legislation was that the EPA had authority to licence only the loading and dumping of material at sea, while the authority for licensing dredging activity remained with the appropriate Minister. This issue of dual consent, whereby ports and harbours wishing to carry out maintenance dredging had to apply to two public authorities for two separate permits, was raised by the agency in submissions to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The agency is satisfied that the proposed Bill removes that duplication and will speed up the authorisation process. In the future applicants will only have to apply for one permit, which will reduce costs.

The agency is pleased that the proposed Bill also includes a number of other amendments to the dumping at sea Acts which we consider necessary to provide legal clarity and to bring the regulatory process for dumping at sea into line with the agency’s other licensing regimes. For example, head 31 will make provision for the Minister to make regulations which will enable the technical details of the permit process to be set down in secondary legislation. It is envisaged that the regulations will set down the particulars of the permit process such as the timeframes applicable to consultations, notification of statutory consultees and judicial review and will provide for further information requests, oral hearings, a review of a permit, fees, abandoned applications and the withdrawal of applications.

It is also anticipated the regulations will contain provisions for increased public participation in the dumping at sea permit process, which is of particular importance in light of the Aarhus Convention and its requirements regarding public participation. The Bill also rectifies a number of other shortcomings in the current legislation, for example, by inserting provisions for transboundary consultation in cases where dumping at sea activities might have an impact on other member states. In terms of enforcement provisions, the EPA believes that the changes set out in the Bill will improve enforcement of dumping at sea activities and the original Act contains several ambiguities which the Bill will remove, providing not only clarity for the agency but assurances to the regulated community. The Bill provides clarification on who is authorised to enforce dumping at sea activities and provides for consistency of approach across the various enforcement bodies.

The introduction of fees for enforcement is also welcomed by the agency. To date the agency has had to absorb the cost of enforcement under the Dumping at Sea Act 1996. Previously all offences under the Dumping at Sea Act 1996 were indictable; there was no provision for summary offences. This prohibited the agency from taking legal action without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions and required cases to be heard in the Circuit Court or higher. The agency welcomes the changes indicated and these will allow the agency the option of proceeding with summary prosecutions and it brings the amended Dumping at Sea Act 1996 in line with other environmental law.

In summary, the agency welcomes the amendments to the dumping at sea legislation proposed in this Bill. The proposed amendments will end the dual consent situation that currently applies to maintenance dredging and will provide the EPA with legal clarity and enhanced powers to better manage the permitting and enforcement of dumping at sea legislation. These changes are important in the wider context of the better regulation agenda being promoted by Government. I hope I have given the committee an overview of the significance of the outline heads of the Maritime Area and Foreshore (Amendment) Bill 2013 from the EPA’s perspective and I am happy to answer any questions the committee members may have for me.

I thank Mr. Lynott for his opening statement. I wish to raise the issue of indictable versus summary offences. I can understand the difficulties arising from process of having to involve the DPP, did that act as a deterrent for the EPA to enforce follow up of the offence?

Mr. Dara Lynott

It is more difficult in terms of the level of evidence one must collect. One must convince the Director of Public Prosecutions that it is worth taking the case and then once the DPP decides to take the case, one is no longer in control of the timelines of where and when that case is prosecuted. Summary convictions allow a much shorter period between detection and conviction and there is a greater number of cases that warrant summary conviction with low fines than major indictable fines which would be reserved for large-scale pollution or where there was collusion or where offences were planned. Quite often a number of these offences are due to a certain amount of negligence or not being thoughtful about what one is doing, but a summary offence gets the message across and behaviours are changed.

Could Mr. Lynott tell us the average number of cases the agency would deal with in a year?

Mr. Dara Lynott

In terms of prosecutions or applications?

In terms of detections. I understand that the EPA only has the power since 2010, so it is at the embryonic stage of the cycle.

Mr. Dara Lynott

Since 2010, we have taken one prosecution. It was the first prosecution ever taken under the dumping at sea legislation. None had been taken prior to that.

What is the basis for the methodology of detection?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Let me describe the sequence of events of our first prosecution. One of our inspectors was driving by a port and saw dredging activity and realised that nobody had applied for a permit to do this dredging. On that basis, he collected evidence to suggest that they were carrying on an unauthorised activity.

Was it a case of being in the right place at the right time?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Yes.

I apologise for my late arrival, but I was in the Dáil Chamber. I missed the initial part of Mr. Lynott's presentation. I wish to follow on from the Chairman's questions on enforcement. Does the EPA work in concert with other agencies, such as the navy and the local authorities? Does the EPA depend on the interaction with other agencies?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Partly, however, many EPA inspectors have been trained up in maritime skills, that is to board boats, to have a look at what is going on. For example, is the right technology in play, whether the work is being done with a bucket and grab versus a trailing hopper or suction feeds or whatever. The other aspect is checking that we get the right documentation, which is a desk-based activity. Quite often dredging is done in the public eye. It is happening in harbours, near coastlines and residents would contact the EPA when they are not happy with the operation.

Dunmore East fishery harbour is in my constituency. The fishermen have been crying out for dredging to occur for many years. It is down to a matter of finding the financial support and-or the resources to do that so that the harbour can reach its full potential. I note Mr. Lynott's comments. Will Mr. Lynott clarify whether two permits were required under the previous law, or if there was duplication, has that process being simplified?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Under the current legislation, there are two separate operations, namely, the actual dredging and the dumping of the material. The EPA was only given responsibility for the dumping. Our permit process starts when the dredged material hits the boat and continues until the dredged material goes on to the seabed or where ever it ends up. If Dunmore East wanted to go for a dredging and dumping permit, it would have to go to the appropriate Minister, either the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government or the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and then to the EPA. It is dual consent. Under the proposed Bill, the application will just come to the EPA. However, there will still be a requirement for planning permission under the foreshore regulations and I know An Bord Pleanála was before this committee.

Is the EPA aware of the need for dredging in the first instance? I can understand the EPA is charged with protecting the environment, but harbours came into existence for practical reasons. Harbours must work and dredging is necessary if they are to be operable as harbours. I presume the EPA is conscious of that.

Mr. Dara Lynott

We have no view for or against dredging, but as a statutory body we are required to accept applications and we assess them as we see them. To date, we have refused one application.

Dr. Karen Creed

We refused permission in one case because of the kit and dredging materials that were proposed to be used. The applicant subsequently submitted an application in which the plans were changed.

Must the applicant submit a statement of how it proposes to conduct the dredging?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Yes. We were not happy with the methodology as opposed to the fact that they were dredging in the first place.

I note the comments on dumping at sea.

On the question of offshore wind farms, interconnectors and so on, does the EPA have a role in such development out at sea or is it a matter for other agencies?

Mr. Dara Lynott

In assessing an application and the location in which dredged material would be dumped, we would have to have cognisance of things such as interconnector cables that are buried at sea. It would not be appropriate for dumping to happen in that location.

Is the EPA consulted when it is proposed to establish a new interconnector between the south of Ireland and France? Does the EPA have a role in the siting of offshore wind farms?

Mr. Dara Lynott

There can be in the context of strategic environment assessment, that is to say, other member states, whether from Wales or France may, as part of a transboundary consultation, look for the Irish authorities to comment on a strategic environmental assessment. In terms of the Deputy's question, it is the foreshore regulatory system that would deal with those issues.

On the question of offshore gas storage, for which there is no legislation at present, would it be part of the role of the EPA to recommend that, where possible, the storage of offshore gas should be in used drilling wells or other wells because its priority is the protection of the seabed and sea life?

Does the EPA have a role in prioritising sites on a sliding scale? Class A sites - gas fields or drilling holes that have already been used - should be the first priority if we are to avoid digging up the seabed. Does the EPA's remit extend to allowing it to propose the best option for companies? If it does not, perhaps it falls within the remit of some other body. I appreciate that companies will probably choose the cheapest option first, even though it might not be the best option from an environmental perspective, but obviously they are also concerned about the most effective option.

Mr. Dara Lynott

Two sets of regulations are relevant in this context. The foreshore regulations allow for appropriate planning of that type of activity. As part of its safety remit, the Commission for Energy Regulation judges whether the activity that is proposed is safe, and examines how the well and the well head will be drilled and maintained. Unfortunately, the EPA does not yet have any role in this area.

I would like to ask a question that occurred to me in the context of the introduction of new regulations for septic tanks. We all want to clean up the environment. We all want to ensure there are very high standards. The EPA is responsible for dumping at sea. Does it regulate local authority pipes that go out to sea? Does it have any involvement in that?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Again, that is governed by the foreshore regulations.

I should clarify that the EPA is responsible for ensuring dumping at sea does not happen. It is not responsible for the dumping itself.

I said that in jest.

I assume certain discharges are allowed and regulated.

Mr. Dara Lynott

Perhaps my colleague, Dr. Creed, will comment on that aspect of the matter.

Dr. Karen Creed

We are responsible for the regulation of wastewater discharges and IPPC and waste facilities that might discharge to the foreshore. We have a responsibility under other licensing regimes and other legislation for those aspects which relate to the discharge, but the actual infrastructure involved would need foreshore licensing permission.

Mr. Dara Lynott

We are responsible for the quality of the discharge from wastewater treatment plants or industrial facilities that is discharged into the sea. However, the actual infrastructure - where the pipe is and how big it is, etc. - is a matter for the foreshore planning system.

I thank Mr. Lynott.

I would like to ask about the EPA's involvement with industry in the context of the massive pharmachem industry in Cork. Can Mr. Lynott comment on the extent and importance of the EPA's involvement with people in the industry in terms of regulating it and ensuring everything goes according to plan? In some cases, serious discharges have to take place. How important is the EPA's involvement with industry partners? What is the extent of that involvement?

Mr. Dara Lynott

We have close relations with IBEC and its subgroup, known as the pharmachem group, which consists of representatives of that industry. We have a licensing regime. The industrial emissions directive is the latest directive that will regulate these activities. They have been regulated with us since 1995 or 1996. We have had a fairly good record. Pharmachem companies tend to have the infrastructure, the know-how and the money to support their efforts to comply with environmental regulations. When we roll out new regulations such as the industrial emissions directive, we meet representatives of IBEC in the first instance to outline our plan of action, set out what we intend to do, explain how we intend to consult and invite them to come back to us if they have any particular issues. Obviously, we have discretion about the methodology we employ in implementing European law, which we are ultimately required to do. We have discretion regarding types of licences, forms of guidance and means of getting information from industry. Unfortunately, a number of the environmental objectives are set in Europe. We have to apply them. In the case of the objective pertaining to the harbour in Ringaskiddy, for example, we have to ensure the quality of the discharge is such that it will not result in the degradation of the quality standards set for Cork Harbour.

That is a good point. Do Dr. Creed or Dr. Higgins want to add anything? No. I sincerely thank the witnesses for their interaction with us on the outline heads of the Bill.

Sitting suspended at 4.14 p.m. and resumed at 4.15 p.m.

National Biodiversity Data Centre

Táimid ar ais i seisiún poiblí. The next witness who is in attendance as part of our consideration of the outline heads of the Maritime Area and Foreshore (Amendment) Bill 2013 is Dr. Liam Lysaght, who is the director of the National Biodiversity Data Centre. I thank him for being in attendance this afternoon.

I would like to draw his attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee at any stage to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise Dr. Lysaght that his opening statement or any other documentation he has supplied to the committee may be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Dr. Lysaght to address the committee.

Dr. Liam Lysaght

I thank the committee for inviting me to address it. I will speak about a specific and small aspect of the proposed foreshore Bill. As it is probably useful for the committee to be aware of the service we provide, I will give a brief and succinct overview of our role. I will be happy to answer any questions that are asked after that.

The National Biodiversity Data Centre is pleased to be invited to make a submission to the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht on the outline heads of the Maritime Area and Foreshore (Amendment) Bill 2013. The data centre welcomes the commitment in the proposed legislation to develop a modern consent process for offshore and onshore activity and to implement the EU marine strategy framework directive. The approach in the Bill to streamlining the consent process and subjecting it to a single environmental impact assessment is also welcome as it should deliver efficiencies in terms of policy implementation. The National Biodiversity Data Centre provides services to the public and private sectors. Therefore, it is outside my remit to comment on specific aspects of policy development. Having said that, the data centre has a key role in assisting the introduction of informed decision-making, particularly as it relates to aspects of the management of Ireland's biodiversity resource and natural heritage.

The National Biodiversity Data Centre was established as a reflection of the importance of biodiversity, which is the modern way to describe this national asset. Most people use the term "nature conservation". In 2008, a Government report estimated that biodiversity contributes €2.6 billion to the Irish economy each year. This vital national asset makes this quantified contribution through unseen ecosystem goods and services. The National Biodiversity Data Centre was set up to assist in the management of this vital national resource. It is well known that the geographical location of the island of Ireland on the edge of the continental shelf, abutting the deep waters of the true North Atlantic Ocean and influenced by the temperate oceanic climate, means we have a unique biodiversity that is found nowhere else in the world. It is important to stress that "unique" means "unique". There is nowhere else on the globe with this combination of factors. I do not think it is sufficiently recognised as a huge national asset.

The composition and interaction of species, habitats, ecosystems and - importantly - human activity demonstrates that this is a valuable resource that clearly provides opportunities for sustainable exploitation. Its uniqueness means there is a special responsibility on Ireland to manage this resource effectively.

Some of these responsibilities are outlined in international conventions such as the Convention on Biological Diversity, the OSPAR Convention, which is for the protection of the marine environment of the north-east Atlantic, the Ramsar Convention, that is the convention on wetlands of international importance, and is also enshrined in European legislation, such as the EU habitats and birds directives, the environmental impact assessment directive and so on.

The common theme of these responsibilities for sustainable management is that the effective management of this resource, dealing with the environmental aspects and using it as a resource to exploit, must be based on informed decision making to ensure they are both economically and environmentally sustainable. It is recognised that the proposed maritime area and foreshore (amendment) Bill sets out a framework and process to introduce informed decision-making as it relates to the marine environment and to the coastal area. As such it is a welcome development.

The question is where does the data centre fit in. We have a defined but, perhaps, quite important remit that can assist. I shall give the committee a brief overview of the data centre. We are a national organisation responsible for the collection, collation, management, analysis and dissemination of data or information on Ireland's biological diversity. It was established by the Heritage Council in 2007 and is funded by the Heritage Council and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. The data centre is overseen by a management board, the members of which are listed in my submission.

The key point to note is that our work is cross-cutting. We try to engage with the private and public sector and try to deal with volunteers and the research community and public bodies. We are at the interface of this diverse group of sectoral interests. The directors of many of the relevant statutory bodies, State agencies and cultural institutions are represented on it. We have a small staff of six based at Waterford Institute of Technology and we are good value for money.

One of the key planks of our work is to develop a national information management system for Ireland's biodiversity and to make the data freely and universally available in a format that will enable the data to be used for policy implementation, research and building the knowledge base. One of the systemic weaknesses in terms of managing biodiversity in the past is that it has usually been seen as a problematic area. It is always at the end of the development process that some problem arises and then nature conservation biodiversity gets a bad name. It is seen as an impediment to development. We are now at a stage where we have modern state-of-the-art infrastructure. We have a data management system which means that information can feed into the decision making process early on. We hope that biodiversity and nature conservation will become as much a part of good planning and part of the routine as other aspects of development. We are hoping to streamline that.

We have developed a state-of-the-art data portal where any person can access the data. We have democratised the whole issue about freedom of information and access to data. One can be at home with one's PC and one will get exactly the same access to data as somebody working in a university or public body. It is a fundamental shift in terms of democratisation of information, of which we are quite proud. We have mobilised 100 data sets of all aspects of Ireland's biodiversity. Currently there are 2.5 million observations in the system and we have data on close to 14,000 species that occur in Ireland. There are about 40,000 species found in Ireland. It is a work in progress but every month we are adding to the database. By the end of the year we may have close to 3 million observations on it. It is important to note that the system deals with the terrestrial land based biodiversity and it is fully integrated with the marine. It is one of the few places where there is interface between the terrestrial and the marine. There is a seamless interaction-integration in that area. If issues arise where offshore development may potentially impact on onshore or terrestrial we have a seamless presentation of data to enable better decisions to be made. It is important to mention that we are not just a warehouse for data but much of our work involves analysing the data. Data are only as good as what they are telling us.

We work with our key partners the State bodies, researchers, national experts. We have a whole programme of analysis of the data. It is one thing to mobilise the data but what is important is that they are telling us in terms of increasing our knowledge base. We have done much work in that regard.

The overall objective of what we are doing is to use empirical data to see the biodiversity resources of the country and by doing some analysis to say how it is changing. We hope that can feed in a format that can feed into policy development and ultimately lead to better informed decisions that will benefit biodiversity.

By way of summation, what exactly is this service and what kind of data management do we provide on behalf of the State and what aspects of the work might be of direct relevance to the heads of the Bill and implementation of the legislation? We undertake a large exercise in collating data from the private and public sectors and from those working in a professional and voluntary capacity. We are at the crossroads trying to bring various partners together. The engagement we have with the research community would be very different from the engagement we have with local communities. That data are of value no matter from where they come. The value one ascribes to them is what we must note. As we are at the coalface of decision making, we have to ensure there is high quality data. All of the data on our system are fully validated and adhere to the highest international data quality standards.

An important role for us is to have more and better quality data on Ireland's protected and threatened species. We put effort into collating this. For that suite of species it is important to try to get information available to people who are potentially making decisions. One of the weaknesses up to now is not that planners do not want to take environmental or nature conservation concerns on board but the short time period in which to make a decision. Usually, if they have to go seeking information it does not get there. We now have the information mobilised fairly quickly and anybody working in any office can access it straightaway. It is not password protected. We hope it will improve accessibility of data for key decision making.

As we have a brief for both the terrestrial and the marine environment our system technically deals with Irish grid references for projection systems on land and latitude-longitude for the marine area but it does transcend the coastal fringe where we have a seamless flow of data. We can deliver empirical data as to the known occurrences of protected and threatened species with any designated site or with any land parcel within the coastal area. With our partners we analyse the data. There is much anecdotal evidence. My father used to speak of the demise of the cuckoo and that he had not heard it for years; of course, he had not because he moved from Kerry to living in inner-city Limerick. It is all very subjective.

We review existing data. There is an internationally recognised process for assessing whether a species is threatened with extinction. We apply this methodology to Irish data and come up with what is called conservation assessments or red lists. We can say objectively that for a group of birds, x percentage of those are threatened with extinction. It means we can prioritise conservation effort. It reduces the ability of people to muddy the water in terms of their pet subject if we can provide objective data to help the process.

We have been working closely with the EPA and provide data to make the scoping exercises for appropriate assessments and environmental impact assessments under the habitats directive more efficient.

Basically, if surveys have been done in the past and data have been collected for some purpose, we try to ensure the data are archived with the National Biodiversity Data Centre and that the data are available for any other purpose. This provides added value for work that has been done, rather than reinventing the wheel, and also ensures the data archived inform future decision making.

We are a service provider to the public sector and one of the key aspects of our strategic plan is the facility to customise our online tools and data management systems to meet the specific requirements of any of the public bodies we work with. We have an active programme with organisations like the National Parks and Wildlife Service, Inland Fisheries Ireland and some of the local authorities in trying to make our system more user friendly for them.

My introduction may be slightly tangential to the subject matter of the Bill, but I believe it is of value to the committee to be aware of this. I am happy to elaborate on any aspects.

Before I call Deputy Coffey, the point Dr. Lysaght makes in regard to the bridging of the marine and terrestrial is well made. What is the extent of the involvement of the data centre with the Marine Institute?

Dr. Liam Lysaght

We work quite well at a technical level with the technical people in the Marine Institute. Therefore, any of the systems rolled out are completely compatible so that the data flows between them can work. We also feed into the marine strategy framework directive. Our mapping system is part of that, but I omitted saying that in my oral presentation. Our mapping portal is totally compatible, so all of our data for biodiversity feed directly into the marine atlas that is being produced by the Marine Institute.

It is completely seamless so.

Dr. Liam Lysaght

Yes, it is seamless. We do the hard grind in terms of validating the data and the institute gets to display them on its system. That is the role we take.

Is that done with a staff of six based in WIT?

Dr. Liam Lysaght

Yes, but we actually have an unusual set up. One of the characteristics of wildlife, nature conservation or biodiversity is that many people are passionately interested in a subject and these people are probably our national experts, but they work in a voluntary capacity. We do not have the expertise in house to do much of the data validation. Therefore, we rely on a network of validators or key national experts who validate the data on our behalf for free. We do much of the technical validation ourselves, because we have someone who can run scripts, but in terms of the intellectual expertise, we usually get external people to validate that.

I thank Dr. Lysaght for attending the committee to outline his views on the Bill and for outlining for the committee the role of the data centre and its importance to the sustainability of our wildlife and biodiversity. I realise now that I had reason to engage with the data centre a while ago and I have a little story to tell in a moment in that regard. Dr. Lysaght welcomes the fact that the Bill will contribute to a modern consent process and streamline the current system into a single environmental impact assessment. He states biodiversity and nature are a unique national asset. We acknowledge that and must contribute in whatever way we can to a sustainable environment. I agree that the data centre should not be seen as an impediment but rather as an information provider for those who make decisions regarding any development that may happen, both in regard to the Bill under discussion or planning in general.

I had reason to contact the data centre a while ago because I was lucky enough to see a pine marten in my area, Portlaw. I was amazed to see him cross my path one day when I was driving. I thought at first it was a fox, but then I realised it was a pine marten and contacted the data centre. When I did, I found out about the MISE - mammals in a sustainable environment - project, which is investigating and collecting data on the habitats of pine martens. One of the areas being studied was the area in which I was living. I had not known that and was delighted to discover the data centre was based in WIT and to hear of all its good work. I commend the centre and I now get the odd e-mail to do with the atlas of mammals and the number of sightings. I commend the centre also on the excellent work it does in collating the reports of sightings. Since I reported my sighting of the pine marten, I have reported a couple of sightings of the pygmy shrew. I wonder if the Chairman has ever seen one, but I have seen it in my area a few times. The work of the centre raises our awareness and alerts us citizens to our environment and is doing excellent work nationally and in WIT.

I understand the Marine Institute has a significant technical role in managing the marine and all that goes with it. Does the data centre have much of a role in the area of aquaculture? For example, if people are developing aquaculture projects, do these projects have an impact on our existing biodiversity? If people are bringing in oysters or mussels or whatever that are not native to a particular area, does the data centre have a role to play or does it just provide the data? What is the centre's role in the planning process for such projects? Do the local authorities or An Bord Pleanála contact the centre for information when developing a development or action plan in regard to marine development? Do they seek information from the data centre?

Dr. Liam Lysaght

I thank Deputy Coffey for his kind words. I am glad we can provide him with feedback on mammal sightings. Report of sightings are greatly appreciated.

I will deal first with the issue of aquaculture, but will leave planning out of it. We are not a statutory consultee and do not get formal requests for information. We operate through a portal we are trying to encourage anybody who wishes to use. I mentioned the term the "democratisation of data" and that is our policy. Anybody can access or define an area on the map and generate the information known on that area, or more technically, the information that is available on our database. Whether one is a statutory authority or Joe public, one has the same access to our system. The system is user led and users do not need to come through us, but can define what they want from it.

In regard to aquaculture, one of the tangential areas is that we maintain a national invasive species database and we engage heavily in that regard at both national and European level. There are other issues about the importation of non-native species. One thing Ireland does well, compared to other European countries, is that there is good national co-ordination between the various State bodies in terms of invasive species. We are more or less the engine driving that, but there is great co-operation between us and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. We have an indirect role in aquaculture, but not a specific involvement.

The portal we have developed is no good unless it is used. We can lead a horse to water. We hope this portal will become a link that every planner in every local authority will have on his or her desktop, which they will use routinely. If there is to be a development in an area, they can use a simple query searching for the townland and can get a report on what species have been located within the area. Part of my work has been to go around to the local authorities, working mostly through the heritage officers within the local authorities who set up meetings with staff in the authorities. We give a demonstration of how the mapping system can be used as a tool. To be honest, I do not know to what extent the system is being used, but it needs to be used more. Part of my core work is going out and doing the salesman bit to try to get the local authorities to use it. It is a valuable tool, but we need to get people to use it routinely.

I know the data centre engages with schools also, but as it has only limited resources, I am sure it finds this difficult. Perhaps the committee should consider at another time how we could assist in this area. Biodiversity and the living environment are key issues. Schools have access to broadband and smartboards and could readily access the portal mentioned. I am sure Dr. Lysaght has enough on his plate, but bringing the message to schools could raise awareness of the importance and significance of biodiversity. A recommendation in this regard should come from this committee. Again, I thank Dr. Lysaght for his presentation.

Before I call on Senator Keane, I want to say that Deputy Coffey reminded me of laethanta scoile siar sna hochtóidí. I remember my second class teacher showing nature slides on an old projector when nature study was part of the curriculum. That was the last time I saw or heard of the pygmy shrew. Nature study was an important part of the curriculum. The comment made with regard to perception is dead right. Some people view environmental data as an impediment to development. If that is the basis on which they look at biodiversity or the world of nature, we are on a hiding to nothing. It is difficult to bring any positivity to that perspective, not to mind provide an information stream.

I recall my grandparents talking about the corncrake and how rare he was getting at that stage. The terminology - biodiversity, nature - was a very important part of the primary school curriculum. As we look back, we realise what we have missed. I wanted to put that on the record, along with our appreciation for Dr. Lysaght's own organisation in helping us to maintain what is a very valuable and finite resource, but which is also playing an important role in our recovery, which is driven largely by the tourism industry. Tourism cannot be dispensed from a machine; it is there naturally and it is what is bringing people to our country.

Dr. Liam Lysaght

I agree fully with the Deputy. Of course education is so important for children, but we do not have the luxury to wait for a generation to do things better than us. Biodiversity is a natural resource. It is worth €2.6 billion to the Irish economy and that figure has been worked out by the Department and is a tangible figure. We often hear about environmental designations, usually in a negative sense about what it will stop us from doing. We can look at that slightly differently. From Achill to Athens, or from Gibraltar to Nordkapp in Scandinavia, the European Commission has stated that 16% of Irish land area is unique. We can look at that as a positive thing. In Britain there are 1 million members alone of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. There are multiples of that number in Holland and Germany. Looking for wetlands - something in which we probably would have no interest on a wet day in Belmullet - is actually a fantastic resource. Tourism provides an opportunity to flag this, but efforts must go towards presenting the detail of what is there, rather than paying lip service. This issue needs to get to the heart of public policy in a positive way. There are great opportunities and we are missing them. I apologise as I do not mean to lecture, but it is a challenge I would like to put back to committee members, because they are in the position to do something significant about this.

I thank Dr. Lysaght for his interesting comments. By having representatives of the National Biodiversity Data Centre and other like organisations before the committee, we will make better legislation. We cannot be informed about everything, so the experts can add to the legislation.

I was looking at what is known as the "real map" of Ireland and at the size of the ocean on the west of Ireland. Given that 16% of the land area is unique in Europe, we are obviously not selling it enough. To use Dr. Lysaght's words, there is sustainable exploitation. We cannot afford to leave assets sit idly by, but neither we can afford to destroy natural assets. It is easy enough to replace man-made assets, but nature is difficult and it takes billions of years to replace. The most probable exploitation is that of wind at sea. There are maps available showing the high potential wind areas around the coast, and these are coloured in bright red and bright orange. Can Dr. Lysaght develop a map of the "do not touch" areas that have unique biodiversity? I could not see that in his maps, which are linked to the British maps. It is a very difficult ask, because the sea is so huge and there are funding issues here, especially since much of the funding is voluntary.

When talking about national biodiversity, it would be remiss of me not to remember Éamon de Buitléar, amuigh faoin spéir and former Seanadóir, who has died and who we are commemorating tomorrow in the Seanad. When we talk about biodiversity, his name comes to mind from my childhood. It is not easy to map the land mass of Ireland, but it is easier than the sea and today we are talking about the sea base and the marine. How realisable is that?

Dr. Liam Lysaght

The short answer is that is probably not realisable yet, but we are just at the cusp of being able to do this type of analysis. Any analysis like that must be done correctly and with sound science. If we produce a map that is not based on science, we will get everybody discrediting it. However, once we mobilise data and have digital data, we are really at the cusp of being able to do that. It is probably a bit premature, but perhaps that will happen in another year or two. There is a technique called biodiversity hotspot analysis and we can begin to use that for the data that we have mobilised, but there are many gaps. It is an imperfect world, but we are nearly there. Seven years ago, we were at the back of the European class in terms of infrastructure for managing wildlife information.

I am going to go two years ahead of myself and propose that Dr. Lysaght be assisted in that type of analysis, because if he is only two years away from what it is possible to do, then that should not be taken lightly. We in this committee would like to see that map developed because it would help in developing offshore wind in particular.

Dr. Liam Lysaght

That is in our work programme. Hopefully we will continue to get the support of the public bodies on our board, which are very supportive. That is part of our raison d'être, so by being in existence we will have these outputs which everyone can use.

That concludes our consideration of the Bill with Dr. Lysaght. Thank you for your interaction with us, which was very important. I hope our paths will cross again in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 November 2013.
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