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Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht debate -
Wednesday, 16 Apr 2014

EU Scrutiny Report and Future Priorities and Challenges: Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government

I welcome Mr. John McCarthy, Secretary General, Ms Maria Graham, assistant secretary in the water and planning division, Mr. Michael Layde, assistant secretary in the housing division, and Mr. David Walsh, assistant secretary in the environment division. I thank them for their attendance.

I wish to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise the witnesses that the opening statement and any other documentation they provide this morning may be published on the committee's website once the meeting has concluded.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. McCarthy to make an opening statement.

Mr. John McCarthy

As I understand it, the committee has my opening statement and will publish it. As such, I will take five minutes to run through some of the key points.

That is fine.

Mr. John McCarthy

We are present for two purpose - to discuss the Department's report under the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002; and to share some reflections on the wider business priorities of the Department and the challenges arising as I commence my term as Secretary General.

In so far as EU business is concerned, the period in question followed on from Ireland's successful EU Presidency in the first half of 2013, during which we achieved a significant element of agreement on legislative files and represented the EU on the international stage on a range of important issues, for example, climate, waste and sustainable development.

The second half of last year was the period during which Lithuania held the Presidency for the first time. Lithuania made substantial progress on a number of important environmental files. The climate agenda was a heavy focus for that Presidency, particularly in light of the 19th Conference of the Parties, COP19, on climate change that took place in Warsaw in November. This was an important stepping stone towards the Paris Conference at the end of 2015, when the objective is to reach a new global agreement on climate change. There will be two further important staging points on the way to that conference. First, the UN Secretary General will hold a high-level summit on climate matters in September of this year. Second, the process will move on to COP20 in Lima in December. The European Commission has published a new policy framework for climate and energy in the period from 2020 to 2030. This will be important in shaping the EU's contribution to the international negotiations.

The main elements of business that the Lithuanian Presidency dealt with were files relating to CO2 emissions from cars and emissions from shipping. The latter was a first step in a longer-term strategy to deal with emissions from shipping, one that will be delivered through an agreement by the International Maritime Organization, IMO. Other issues that Ministers discussed during the second half of the year focused on waste shipment inspection regimes and a proposal from the Commission in that regard. Ireland is strongly supportive. We had some reservations on a number of its aspects, but those have been dealt with in revised texts developed by the Lithuanian Presidency.

The final significant environmental dossier that the Lithuanians dealt with related to invasive alien species. I will not go into much detail on the matter, but the work is being led in Ireland by the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and managed through the environment Council at European level.

Before turning to the wider priorities and challenges for the Department, I will mention one further item of business at European level, that being, the funding of European political parties. The Department has been involved in dealing with two proposals at European level.

An information note provided by the Department was discussed by the committee last December. There has been some progress on those files which deal with funding of European political parties. The regulations have now been agreed between the Council and the Commission and are before Parliament this week with a view to final agreement, although they will not come into force until 1 January 2017. All of the issues referenced in the note discussed by the committee last December have been addressed in the final text that is now in course of being adopted.

I will now speak to the Department's priorities and challenges for the period ahead. As the chairman will be aware I was only recently appointed Secretary General. During the next few years the Department's work will be heavily influenced by the programme for Government and other Government initiatives of a cross cutting nature, particularly the Action Plan for Jobs, coupled with the Department's own departmental strategy which encapsulates its core mission to pursue sustainable development in its social, economic and environmental facets. Delivery of all of this will inevitably involve a significant programme of legislation which I am sure will come before the committee at various stages over the next few years.

I will now comment on domestic environmental matters. Climate policy is an area in which this committee has a strong interest. It is also an area in which the Minister has taken a lead role in terms of his programme of policy and legislative development. We are grateful for the committee's input in the development of that programme. That input, and the committee's report, has fed into the final proposals for the heads of the climate action and low carbon development Bill and an associated policy statement, which are currently before Government and will, I expect, be published shortly.

Environmental protection and economic development are not mutually exclusive. A key challenge for us will be bringing them together to underpin the transition to what will ultimately, by 2050, be a competitive low carbon environmental sustainable economy. In parallel with this, we will have to deal with the inevitable impacts of climate change. As such, implementation of the climate change adaptation framework, which we published in December 2012, will be a key focus for us as we move forward. As I mentioned earlier, there is an ongoing process at EU level in relation to the EU's 2030 level of ambition in relation to climate change. The Department will continue to feed into that.

A second priority in the environment area is waste. A new policy statement on waste was published in 2012. Key business for the Department in the coming number of years will be putting in place new regional waste management plans and a new regulatory system for household waste collection. Also in relation to environment, we remain on track to merge the Environmental Protection Agency and the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland this summer. Legislation to underpin this is at an advanced stage. I would expect it to be published within a matter of weeks, following which it will be brought before both Houses for consideration.

Local government reform is a significant area of work for the Department in terms of functions, structures and finance. It has been an area to which considerable effort has been devoted over the past number of years in the context of the local elections on 23 May and the establishment of new councils on 1 June. Members will be aware we will in future have 31 councils as opposed to 114. A significant element of the implementation action will fall to the new councils to deal with.

The Putting People First - Action Programme for Effective Local Government sets out a vision of local government as the primary vehicle for governance and public service at local level. This will be a key focus as we move ahead. In regard to local and community development, there is an ongoing programme of work in terms of securing greater alignment between local government and local development. This will be taken forward through the new local community development committee structures to be established under the Government's reform programme. Also on the community development side, development of the new community development programme will kick in from 2015 and the new Leader programme will kick in next year as part of the next round of EU funding. Work in both areas is ongoing.

In terms of planning, the Department's aim is to ensure we ultimately achieve a planning system that is not reactive in nature but instead is proactive and provides a strong basis for sustainable development, ensuring that the right development occurs in the right place at the right time while protecting the common good. We are in the process of developing new legislation, including legislation that will bring forward proposals for a new office of planning regulator. We will also be considering future arrangements for spatial planning at national and regional level and on new planning guidance.

Housing is a significant area of activity for the Department. It accounts for approximately 70% of the Department's voted expenditure for this year in terms of social housing, our role in the private rented sector and the operation of the housing market generally. A significant piece of work by the Department that will continue into next year and onwards is the new housing assistance payment which is being developed to replace rent supplement for a significant cohort of people. A range of regeneration and retrofitting programmes, along with small scale construction of new build, are also ongoing. Addressing special housing needs will continue to be a key priority for the Department, particularly in the area of homelessness. New arrangements are being put in place to implement the report of the homelessness oversight group and to meet the needs of people through the housing grants for older people and people with disabilities.

New legislation is being developed in relation to the private rented sector, particularly around tenancy deposit protection. Members will be aware of the new building regulations and requirements introduced in this area. A key priority for the Department will be ensuring these bed down and continue to work effectively. On the water sector, members will be aware there is a considerable programme of reform under way in this area which is focused on improving the resilience of our water system, addressing leakage and ensuring that we have a secure supply for the future needs of households and businesses. A centrepiece of this is the establishment of Irish Water, new funding arrangements and the introduction of independent economic regulation of the sector through the Commission for Energy Regulation.

Other matters on which the Department is focusing include the local and European elections due to be held on 23 May. Later in the year work will be ongoing on two constitutional amendment Bills on the voting age for general and presidential elections. On the fire and emergency management side, the policy statement, Keeping Communities Safe, which was launched last year will continue to be the focus of concerted implementation in the period to 2015. Along with our colleagues in Met Éireann, which was formerly part of the Department, we will continue to try to ensure it can deliver a service that will support social, economic and environmental activities, particularly in terms of how meteorological information can contribute to this.

On corporate issues, the Department continues to operate in a tight fiscal environment and with declining staff resources. That said, we still have a significant budget provided for in the Department's Estimates this year. A key challenge for us will be to continue to ensure that we use those resources for maximum efficiency and effectiveness, to promote job creation and sustainable economic recovery, environmental protection and, ultimately, better outcomes for those most in need in our society. We will also be heavily involved in continuing to progress the public service reform agenda, not alone at Civil Service level but in terms of our role with the local government sector, where a significant programme of reform is ongoing. While we will continue to see reductions in staffing resources we will do everything we can at management level and across the Department to ensure we can continue to deliver on our ECF targets while at the same time continuing to deliver on the key priorities of our business agenda.

We will keep our business under ongoing review to ensure we can match as best we can the available resources and skills we have to deliver on the important business that has been assigned to us by the Government and, ultimately, to serve the broad range of constituencies we are here to serve, not least the Members of both Houses and the general public.

I welcome the witnesses and their presentation. It is a very busy Department because it covers so much. Representatives of every housing agency and homelessness agency appeared before the committee yesterday. Housing is a priority for the Government and for the Department, particularly the provision of housing for the homeless. The housing plan was mentioned as well. It is necessary to have an over-arching plan for housing development, especially where the houses are needed in Dublin. Perhaps the witnesses would make a statement on that. The Minister is working on that to draw it all together and the Government is working behind the scenes. Some of us know a little about what the Department is doing but the general public has no idea that the Government is working on a housing plan and driving it forward. Information should be provided on that and how it will be dealt with.

There is also the report of the group that was established to address the issue of homelessness. More information should be forthcoming on that. The agenda is to address homelessness completely by 2016. What is the position with that?

With regard to climate change, the British have now decided that our wind energy will not be suitable for them. The reason they have given is the cost of €140 per megawatt hour. Could it be provided at a cheaper price? On virtually the same day that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued its report stating that Ireland and every country in Europe must move to renewable energy the rug was pulled from under our feet by the other side. How realistic is it to reach our targets if we cannot reach our target for wind energy? I realise we must be sensitive about where wind turbines, pylons and so forth are located, but we must reach our target by 2016. There should also be a statement on the linkages. For example, if one reduces, re-uses and recycles, and one has a free green bin and pays water charges, there is a bounce from that as one is saving the environment, but that is not coming across at all. It is all about how much one pays, there is nothing about how much one does as a citizen. Many people want to ensure that the planet survives but they are not being shown the linkage between one and the other.

The water charges issue is very topical today, but I will not ask a question about it. I have done some research on it. Ireland is the only country in Europe that is not charging for water, but nobody is saying that. Why would Ireland be the odd one out? We should show the link that if one pays for water, the return is saving on leakage and saving the environment, but that message is not getting across. It is up to the Department to convey the message that by doing one thing there is a knock-on positive effect on another.

Mr. John McCarthy

I will respond to the second issue first. The Senator referred to climate change and the report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. If wake-up calls were needed, the report certainly provides a clear wake-up call with regard to the extent of the challenge the global community faces in dealing with climate change. On the Ireland-UK issue, our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources have the lead in that regard. To offer clarity on it, the fact that the agreement is not going ahead at this point between Ireland and the UK probably presents more of an issue for the UK in how it meets its targets rather than necessarily for us. I recall hearing the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, say in the last few days that we remain on track to reach Ireland's target of 40% for electricity generation by 2020.

In terms of our overall climate objectives, we have a target to reduce emissions by 20% in the non-traded sector of the economy by 2020. The projections from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, show our emissions to be on the right side of the line we must observe for the first half of that period, up to 2015-16. Thereafter it becomes more challenging. That is the reason the Minister has put a great deal of emphasis not just on the development of legislation but also on the development of a new climate low-carbon roadmap to both envisage the 2050 time horizon and where we must be at that point and also to deal with the shorter term to 2020 and what further measures might have to be taken across the key sectors of transport, energy and agriculture. Those are our three key emitting sectors in so far as the non-traded sector of the economy is concerned.

I accept the Senator's point regarding communications. Over a decade ago we found ourselves in a situation where the wider roll-out of waste charges had to be dealt with. A great deal of effort was put into communication about what those charges would yield in terms of better approaches to waste management and improvements to our environment. On foot of the recent EPA report we are starting to see the benefit of that. For the first time we are recovering more domestic waste than we are sending to landfill, which is a significant achievement. There are similar issues with regard to water, and communications are obviously essential. We will work with Irish Water in that regard. As I said in my opening remarks, one of the key benefits and reasons for the approach the Government has taken is to ensure we get to a point where we have a water infrastructure that is fit for purpose and delivers in a manner that supports both individuals and businesses in meeting their needs. Significant benefits will flow from the new regime so the communications issue must be addressed.

With regard to housing, a number of strands of activity are ongoing. There is an overall cross-governmental construction strategy in preparation and that is at an advanced stage. We are also working on a plan for social housing specifically regarding homelessness. The oversight group has published its report and perhaps my colleague, Michael Layde, might comment on the homelessness aspect as it is one in which he has a particular interest.

Mr. Michael Layde

On the Senator's specific question about the 2016 target, there is a commitment to achieve that target. The target is that involuntary rough sleeping and long-term homelessness would be eliminated by that year. We are working systematically towards that. Following the report of the oversight group that the Minister appointed, we are working on a detailed implementation plan. As it happens, the high-level group that is overseeing this is meeting this afternoon. It is the intention of the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and planning to bring this implementation plan to the Government in the coming weeks and seek its endorsement of it.

In parallel with that we are working very closely with local authorities and, crucially, the voluntary sector or the not-for-profit sector, as it is now described, on developing solutions to the problems that exist. They are significant. Even since the report of the oversight group in the latter part of last year there has been an intensification of some of the issues around homelessness, particularly in the Dublin area, and we are working very closely on a real time basis with local authorities, particularly Dublin City Council, on dealing with that.

The implementation plan will be quite precise when it is published in the coming weeks. One of our mandates is to report on a quarterly basis thereafter to the Cabinet committee on social policy. In terms of achieving the milestones towards its implementation, there is a full and whole of Government commitment to this matter because the solutions for homelessness are varied. They are not just within the remit of my Department and we work very closely with other Departments and agencies.

I wish to comment on the broader issue of housing supply. Obviously supply is central to dealing with homelessness as well as addressing housing need more generally. As the Secretary General has said, we will prepare, as a follow on to a finalised construction strategy, a specific strategy for social housing. It will seek to address a range of issues but, crucially, supply is a common issue for social housing space, commercial housing and the availability of suitable property for office purposes and more generally. We intend to have the social strategy, approved by Government in the first instance, published before the end of the year with clear timelines for the actions to be taken thereafter.

I apologise for being late. I have missed some of the opening statement but the delegation is very welcome. I shall concentrate on the housing part of the submission. We have met a number of the voluntary housing groups who mentioned blockages and delays in delivering voluntary housing for social housing purposes. Has the Department identified blockages? Can it assist voluntary housing groups in dealing with blockages? Is it just a fear of borrowing 80% of the money from the Housing Finance Agency? Has the Department identified serious blockages in voluntary housing? I ask the delegation to please respond to each of my questions individually.

Mr. Michael Layde

We are working very closely with the not-for-profit sector and have done so for decades. That work has intensified with the downturn. We are working very closely with them. We regularly meet the Irish Council for Social Housing and various subsets of same.

The housing policy statement issued by the Government in 2011 clearly outlined that there was going to be a new, expanded and dynamic role for the sector in terms of meeting social housing need which is what we have tried to evolve. We acknowledge the co-operation that we have received from the sector, in that regard. This issue is a challenge for them. As has been said by a number of commentators, we seek to do here what took a much longer period to evolve in other jurisdictions.

It took between 15 to 20 years in other jurisdictions.

Mr. Michael Layde

Yes, and that also applies to capacity building within the sector and so on. The sector in Ireland is very small and even in the aggregate it is very small. Individual associations are quite small when compared with the situation in the UK, particularly England. Having said that, we are making progress. There are challenges and blockages. Clearly, funding is a crucial issue. The Housing Finance Agency is very supportive regarding funding. For sound prudential reasons it has set a reasonably high barrier in terms of the capacity of particular associations of housing bodies to borrow. The numbers that are capable of borrowing from the HFA, having reached that threshold, is quite small. We hope the number will increase somewhat in the period ahead.

Another crucial relationship regarding the supply of properties is with NAMA, whether it is the local authorities or approved housing bodies. The complexities surround the status of the properties, the involvement of NAMA obviously - and we have had very good co-operation with it - also the original developers of the properties, the receivers and other lenders that may be involved. We have standardised a lot of our approach to the matter, which has led to an increase in the supply of properties to approved housing bodies.

Similarly, in terms of the mortgage-to-rent issue, approved housing bodies are crucial to the solution for commercial mortgages. Initially, there were issues with engagements with lenders and so on but we have smoothed those away fairly substantially at this stage. I would not underestimate the problems that we still face and that the sector still faces in terms of meeting those challenges. We work very closely with them and will continue to do so.

It is interesting that the assistant secretary mentioned the mortgage-to-rent scheme. Financial institutions claim there are severe blockages with mortgages-to-rent and said "There are too many players at the table." That sounds like an excuse to me. Let us look at the delivery of the mortgage-to-rent sector. The sub-prime lenders have been better at dealing with mortgage-to-rent cases and have a 38:1 comparison with the Bank of Ireland. Only one mortgage-to-rent case came from the Bank of Ireland yet the sub-prime lenders have provided 38 mortgage-to-rent cases.

Are there too many players at the table? Do the terms and conditions imposed stop mortgage-to-rent options being availed of? Why do sub-prime lenders deal with the option much better than our own financial institutions?

Mr. Michael Layde

Things have moved on in recent months but it is absolutely true what the Deputy has said. When we initiated the scheme the sub-primes were the ones who were primarily interested. They had their own particular motivations and circumstances for doing so. Their early interest should not necessarily be seen as a criticism of other lenders whose business model is different. More recently there has been much better engagement by the pillar banks which will be reflected in more recent statistics.

The mortgage-to-rent process is slow for a number of reasons. It involves various parties. Obviously it involves the approved housing body which will ultimately become the owner of the property. It involves us and we have set guidelines on what we are willing to pay for the properties which is important from a prudential point of view. There is a conveyancing process but the same is associated with any such transaction. There can also be delays with the process.

I wish to comment on the transaction process. If a property ends up with two owners will there be double the conveyancing process under the current system?

Mr. Michael Layde

Yes. The property transfers from the owner of the property - the mortgage holder - to the lender and then onward to the approved housing body. We have managed to streamline the process considerably over the months but there is an inherent complexity. Any single act of conveyancing is prone to difficulty and when there are two that will be exacerbated.

The housing agency is a key partner in this matter. It has taken on the role of pulling the scheme together and we are beginning to see the benefits. It manages the relationship between the approved housing bodies and the lenders.

It is important to remember that at the heart of this matter is the household or family involved and within the process there are cooling off periods. It is a very big decision to forego ownership of one's home even though one will remain in the dwelling, which is central to the mortgage-to-rent process. Therefore, we must be respectful of that fact and be aware of the sensitivities involved. The process has been slow but we are gaining traction. We now have upwards of 2,000 potential cases within the system that have been identified by lenders. We also have 700 or 800 cases that have advanced significantly. We have a target for this year of 350 transitions, as we refer to them, and we are confident of meeting our target.

I wish to raise two matters. It has been stated, especially within urban areas like Dublin and Cork, that there is a shortage of housing. The ESRI reports have shown that there is a substantial shortage. It is normal to hear commentators on radio and television say that there are planning blockages regarding housing development. Has the Department done some work on the matter? I am not sure whether there are planning blockages because a substantial number of properties in urban areas have received planning permission.

Today, a REIT scheme was launched by a Canadian company and I looked at its business model for Canada.

The Canadian business model is to use 10% for social housing. Has there been engagement on that?

Mr. John McCarthy

On the general question of suggested blockages in the planning system, I am not saying the planning system is perfect and there will always be cases where issues arise but, on foot of suggestions that the planning system was acting as a block, we have undertaken informal analysis through local authorities. We looked at the key developments in their areas and we tried to get a sense of the factors preventing them moving forward. In many cases, there are financial issues in terms of the unwinding of the housing market into a more normal space and the capacity of the financial institutions to provide development finance in order to allow them to proceed. That said, we are mindful of the need to ensure the planning system does not become a blockage to proper development. As part of the construction strategy mentioned earlier, which the Government is working on, we are looking to see if there are ways we can make tweaks to the planning system to facilitate development that is financed and has the capacity to move forward.

Mr. Michael Layde

REITS are new to Ireland and facilitated by a Government decision on tax treatment. I am familiar with the Canadian example. We had discussions recently with the approved housing bodies and other stakeholders to begin to explore this to see what is possible. It is bound up with a return on investment. That is at the heart of many of the issues we face in attracting external funding. Any investment will be remunerated out of public funds, whether through payment and availability agreements or whatever, but there are broader issues about the tax treatment about housing units being provided for social purposes or where a proportion of the development is so provided.

The Canadian model is interesting because it applies to a proportion of units. We would be concerned about a situation in which the REIT model was used to develop large-scale social housing projects of the type we pursued out of public funds in the past, which presented difficulties. We are aware of it and we are exploring the possibility that there is some advantage for the delivery of social housing.

We made a new rule yesterday for speakers. There are five minutes for questions and answers. With one minute to go, I will alert the witnesses, who will probably be in possession, that one minute remains.

I never go on too long, as the Chairman knows.

I know but I say that for the benefit of those who did not have the chance to attend yesterday.

I welcome the new Secretary General to the meeting. I have questions on areas outside housing that come under the remit of the Secretary General. The programme for Government is committed to the reorganisation of local government and local governance. What plans exist to devolve greater powers and decision-making to local level? Are there areas where the local council can take decisions that heretofore it could not? Guidelines need to be published because block grants come from the Department and the roads grant, as an example that comes from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, was increased considerably this year. It was encouraged to make decisions at local level and councillors still want a special allocation for local improvement schemes. They want it to be specified because the bulk of elected members on a council are from the urban areas and do not see it as important. How can we overcome a problem of rural versus urban councillors? The former are in a scarce minority because of the population structure.

Over-zoning took place during the Celtic tiger years, when townlands on the outskirts of towns and villages were zoned for various types of development. Will new guidelines be published to deal with the issue and to promote the development of town centres? Rural towns are dying on their feet because the main centre of the town was taken outside of the town centre through development. This has been a problem in many towns in rural Ireland.

The national spatial strategy must be addressed urgently. County development plans, area plans and regional plans were produced but there is no collation of the plans.

Reducing consumer waste to protect the environment is an issue that must be addressed. Another thorny issue, after pylons and wind farms, is the concerns of farmers about fracking. When will new fracking guidelines be produced?

Last but by no means least, we need a balance between conservation and development to address the heritage horrors that occurred during the Celtic tiger years. Many of our monuments were destroyed in the Celtic tiger with overdevelopment. The issue must be addressed. What are the plans for that area?

The witnesses have just over a minute to respond. At yesterday's meeting, when witnesses ran out of time, they agreed to provide written answers in writing to the Deputy.

Mr. John McCarthy

In terms of devolution, the first two important steps are happening at the moment. The county enterprise boards have been dissolved and are now in local authorities as local enterprise offices. In terms of microenterprise support, it is an important additional function going into local government. The new legislation provides an important role for the local authority in coordinating economic development at local level. The third area concerned the community development side and greater alignment between local development and community development. This is not to take it over but to ensure both systems work together in a more cohesive way. The Government's action programme sets out that it will keep under review the possibility of further devolution of power to local authorities. The important thing, with new councils coming into play, is for those local authorities to show form in dealing with economic development, microenterprise and community development functions as a platform towards further devolution. One of the important changes in the Local Government Reform Act is that the existing power to allow powers of Ministers of the Government to be devolved to local authorities has been widened. The powers of State agencies can now be devolved to local authorities where the relevant Minister agrees. Further progress can be made along that road.

There is a significant amount of dezoning of land to deal with the over zoning issues the Deputy described in respect of town centres. One of the important functions features of the local government structure is the replacement of town councils by municipal districts. This means there will no longer be a border running through the suburbs of the town, with two local authorities trying to manage the competing forces of town centre development and development in the suburbs. We are turning our heads towards the replacement of the national spatial strategy with a new national planning framework.

Fracking is being led by our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. As the committee is aware a piece of research is being undertaken jointly by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

In respect of a timeframe, that is a great response. That is a different committee. I call Deputy Michelle Mulherin, who has five minutes for questions and answers.

I welcome Mr. John McCarthy and the other witnesses. Last Monday, the Taoiseach launched the report of the Commission for Economic Development for Rural Areas chaired by Mr. Pat Spillane. That report sets out measures to be taken to address rural decline. Much of the job of work will fall to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. What practical steps are being taken to tackle this very real problem in order to build sustainable communities in rural areas, based on economic growth, as people will not live on fresh air? There must be jobs, investment and growth. Given that job creation growth is evident in other areas which are predominantly urban, we still have the problem of rural migration and young people disappearing from rural Ireland. What is being done in the Department and what measures does it intend to pursue as the way forward?

On the issue of energy projects and the whole side of community gain, once it has been established from a planning point of view that a particular energy project, whether a wind farm or anything else, is desirable and the way to go in a particular area, the issue of community gain must kick in. From the point of view of local authorities, so far as I understand, community gain is not on a statutory basis. Therefore, community gain is ad hoc. In some cases, depending on the promoter, some are more generous and more transparent than others. What is the view of the Department in respect of this issue and what will be done about it?

Are plans afoot whereby rural water would be taken over by Irish Water? Obviously, the problem in rural areas is the viability of projects. This is the reason many projects, whether water or sewerage, have not been delivered in the past. When we had the polluter pays contribution, as these communities do not have a rate base they could not come up with the equivalent; they do not have development levies that the council could put towards it. I come from Mayo, a rural county, where this has been a particular problem. I would like to think as well as having Irish Water that there will be an holistic approach to tackling this issue in rural Ireland. People want to get out of septic tanks. There are villages that could do with sewerage schemes. However, there is always a gap as they fall short of the mark. As part of the CEDRA report it is important that the infrastructural issues and deficits in rural areas are dealt with.

Mr. McCarthy has about one minute and 40 seconds to reply.

Mr. John McCarthy

I thank the Deputy. As the Deputy said the CEDRA report was launched by the Taoiseach earlier in the week. The comprehensive nature of the report is a great tribute to the chairman, Mr. Pat Spillane, and the members. As to where it will go from here, the Government will need to examine each of the recommendations in detail, to see how they can be advanced. From the Department's point of view, we will engage with other Departments as part of that process. As part of the next rural development programme, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine will lead so far as EU funds are concerned. As we are responsible for the Leader programme we will be looking at CEDRA to see whether there are elements within it that we can take forward as part of that process. Following on from one of the points I made to Deputy James Bannon, given that local authorities are being conferred with a broader economic development co-ordination role we will look to the CEDRA report to see if there are elements where the local authority hand, so to speak, could be brought to bear to bring things together in a more cohesive and beneficial way so far as rural communities are concerned.

In terms of planning gain so far as wind development is concerned, Deputy Mulherin is correct in saying that up until now, in so far as the issue has been addressed, it has been on a case by case basis. I note the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is looking at that issue as part of its renewable energy development policy. Rather than speak for that Department, it is an issue that should be taken up in that context, but we will continue to engage with it because the planning process is a critical part of it.

I had cause to tic-tac with the Department and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources just on that point. The issue appeared to be thrown back to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government as it is a planning issue and the Department of Communications Energy and Natural Resources is looking at other matters. The position may have advanced since then but as planning falls within the remit of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, it will, obviously, have a significant role in that area.

Mr. John McCarthy

That was actually my final comment that we will have to engage with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources because whatever policy it decides to put in place it will, ultimately, fall to be delivered through the planning gain issue and will fall to be dealt with through the planning process, therefore, we will have to engage closely with that Department.

And on rural water.

Mr. John McCarthy

Perhaps I can invite Ms Maria Graham to respond to the question on rural water.

Can the witness please respond to the Deputy in writing?

Why; do we not have time?

There were only five minutes.

We are not on a schedule.

We are on a schedule. It was agreed yesterday that the opening speakers would speak for ten minutes while everyone else would have five minutes. Those are the rules that we agreed yesterday.

In fairness, Mr. John McCarthy is appearing before the committee.

Hold on, Deputy-----

It will take one minute to answer the question.

Just two seconds, please. Everybody had five minutes bar the two opening speakers, who had ten minutes. There was no Opposition so we had some leeway. We are now gone to seven and a half minutes in the Deputy's slot. Those are the rules we agreed yesterday.

I think the Chairman is being unreasonable. There are only a few of us left and I would be interested to hear the answer rather than-----

As I do not want to argue with the Deputy, I will ask Ms Graham to answer the question but five minutes will be five minutes from hereon out, end of story. I call Ms Graham.

Ms Maria Graham

On rural water, there is obviously huge commitment to the group water sector and rural water. That is reflected in the fact that there is a budget and an investment programme within the Department's Vote. Irish Water has the same legislative powers as local authorities had in relation to rural water in the sense that group water sectors if they seek to be taken over, completely at their choice, then those powers would be initiated but it is not a function of Irish Water to take over from the group water sector. We would be seeking to ensure that sector and the investment we have made in it and will continue to make, continues to be viable and supported and that the quality improvements are made because there are issues around drinking water in the sector. The Minister does have a rural water committee to look at whatever is the water provider, whether through group sewerage schemes, group water schemes, wells on their own or Irish Water to ensure a holistic response because all of our water provision is within the water framework directive and it comes from the same source that we have to protect. There are mechanisms in place to look at it from that perspective.

I call Deputy Corcoran Kennedy.

I welcome the witnesses and wish Mr. John McCarthy the best of luck in his position. On the merger of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland and the Environmental Protection Agency what is the timeline for putting the legislation in place and effecting that change? My other question is on climate change. The publication of the most recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, report has stimulated debate on it. It was almost as if that whole debate had gone dormant for a long time, even though I note in the report that the Department acknowledged the work we did last year and our suggestions around it. At least the committee was thinking about the issue. Is there a deadline on the publication of the heads of the climate action and low carbon development Bill as that should be done as soon as possible? Is it intended to include the national climate roadmap which we were keen on in terms of the sector roadmaps? If so, will that be done in parallel with the publication of the heads of the Bill or included in it?

Mr. John McCarthy

The legislation to give effect to the RPII and EPA merger, subject to being approved by the Government, should be published quickly after Easter. We hope that it will proceed through both Houses before the summer recess, with the formal merger to follow on after that. A great amount of the preparatory work at an administrative level, led by Mr. Walsh here and colleagues within both organisations, has already been done to facilitate that.

The heads of the climate action and low carbon development Bill are before the Government at the moment. As soon as it has approved them, we will move on to publication very quickly thereafter.

Where will the sectoral roadmaps fit in?

Mr. John McCarthy

The intention is the heads of the Bill would provide the legislative basis for the national low carbon roadmap, so we will be working towards a deadline of the end of the year for that roadmap.

The publication was expected this week, but for whatever reason it did not happen. We presume it will be published possibly the first week back after the Easter recess. When do you see the whole process concluding? When will the Bill become an Act?

Mr. John McCarthy

That will be determined by the speed with which the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel can draft it. We have a very significant programme of legislation at the moment, with four Bills on the Government's list to be published before the summer recess, apart from the climate Bill. We will be pressing to get it drafted and published as quickly as possible, but it will ultimately be in the hands of the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel as to how quickly that can be done.

Could we see it in 2014?

Mr. John McCarthy

I would be very confident of that.

There are many good initiatives in some town councils supporting tidy towns, floral competitions and so on. Some of the town councils allocated a small amount of money in the overall scheme of things, but a very significant amount of money to support projects and awards like these. With the abolition of town councils, what happens in towns where they did have the reliance on local government in the form of town councils to support the projects? What will happen when it is subsumed into the full council? We must be realistic. When the town councils are gone and they are part of the full council with a lot of other stuff going on is there any commitment or structure in place to ensure that in areas where one had good local councils doing that kind of work that it would be continued? Is the system being structured that way or is it up to the individual elected members to try to pull that along as part of the legacy as they go into a municipal district?

Mr. John McCarthy

The intention is that as part of the budgeting process at county level a provision would be included in the budget - a general municipal allocation - so that a limited amount of money would be provided to the allocation and it would be for members at municipal district level to distribute to small-scale initiatives of the kind you are talking about, Chairman, and to some small-scale programmes of work that would be undertaken. There will be a vehicle within the budgeting process. Certain decisions will have to be taken at county level as that is part of the process in terms of efficiency but there will be a general municipal allocation within the budgeting process that would provide an avenue for some of those decisions to be taken at municipal district level.

So at least in theory it can continue. I have one more question which does not affect me nor anyone else present. What is the situation now for the plan to have a directly elected mayor of Dublin post the vote in Fingal?

Mr. John McCarthy

In the best tradition, that would be a policy matter for the Government to decide. Obviously, the provisions that exist in the Local Government Reform Act were absolutely fundamentally predicated on the process that had been under way. If there were to be one, the only plebiscite that could take place in tandem with the local elections is one that would have got the support of the four councils. As the committee is aware, that ultimately did not prove to be successful. We have not had a chance at this point to think about what the next step will be because our focus currently and for the period ahead will be to get the elections out of the way, the new councils established and the programme of reform embedded in the new councils. It would be open to Government to consider whether it wants to go an alternative route in the future.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance this morning and for the very robust exchanges we have had. We look forward to having more of them in the future. The witnesses are free to go.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. sine die.
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