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Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht debate -
Tuesday, 25 Nov 2014

Discussion with Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht

We are resuming the meeting in public session. We will now consider a number of topics with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, and with the Minister of State with responsibility for Gaeltacht affairs, Deputy Joe McHugh. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I want to welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and their departmental officials to this meeting. The officials are Mr. Joe Hamill, Secretary General; Mr. Niall Ó Donnchú, assistant secretary; Ms Máire Killoran, director of Irish; Ms Mary Hurley, principal officer; and Ms Sinead Copeland, assistant principal officer. I thank them all for their attendance here today.

I wish to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I also wish to advise witnesses that the opening statement and any other documentation they provide to us this afternoon may be published on the committee's website once the meeting has concluded.

As the witnesses are aware, we requested this meeting to discuss a number of issues with the Minister and the Minister of State. I congratulate the Minister on her new appointment. We are interested to hear about her overall plans for the Department in the coming time. As regards the Minister of State, there will obviously be a certain interest in the 20 year strategy for the Irish language.

In recent weeks, we have touched a lot on the preparations and plans for the 1916 commemorations, so we will obviously venture into that territory.

Without further ado, I now call on the Minister to make her opening statement to the committee.

Thank you, Chairman. As the new Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, I am delighted to have the opportunity to address the committee today. I see this as a valuable opportunity to set out my priorities in coming year. In the time allotted I will deal with as many issues as possible.

I will firstly address the committee’s report on utilising the arts to combat disadvantage among the young, the old and socially disadvantaged, and to encourage their greater integration and social inclusion within local communities.

First and foremost, I thank committee members for undertaking this report. It is clear that a lot of work went into it and I am particularly impressed by the number of stakeholders from across the arts that gave evidence to the committee.

The 19 recommendations are wide ranging and challenging. The key recommendations in this report focus on addressing disadvantage and essentially propose that new functions be given to me as Minister for the Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, and to my Department.

Recommendation No. 1 proposes that the arts be used as a fundamental means of combating social exclusion and disadvantage. There are a number of recommendations linked to this which propose research and study into the subject of how the arts could be used to combat disadvantage in our society.

Over a third of the recommendations deal with the relationship of local authorities with various bodies, including the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Arts Council, and other local funding agencies.

Deputy Noel Coonan took the Chair.

Two weeks ago, I met with local authority arts officers to discuss their concerns and their ideas for the future. Following on from that, I am looking for ways which would improve communication and linkages between the arts officers and other stakeholder bodies. I understand that the Arts Council is examining new, more informative and transparent ways of presenting information on the combined local authority and Arts Council funding of the arts. At present, the council’s website gives details of all funding distributed to local authorities and to arts organisations in each local authority area.

Recommendation No. 4 proposes that my Department becomes the primary source of all funding to the arts, both through local authorities and directly to arts organisations. At present, the Arts Council is the main channel of State support for the arts. I believe that the Arts Council has served the arts and this country well for over 60 years. I do not envisage any fundamental change in the institutional arrangements which encompass the arm's length approach of Arts Council distribution of Exchequer funding to the arts. Expertise on the arts resides in the Arts Council and it is therefore best placed to identify and fund excellence in the arts. My Department is currently considering this report in more detail.

I was delighted recently to launch in the GPO Ireland 2016 with the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin. This is a national initiative led by my Department which will develop, co-ordinate and deliver a programme of activity to mark the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. This programme will be underpinned by the €4 million I secured in the recent budget which will be used to roll out an integrated plan during 2015. Community involvement is key to having a lasting and meaningful commemoration and the framework launched recently will facilitate that engagement. In the coming three months a dedicated team in my Department will actively engage with communities, schools, relative groups, colleges, businesses, voluntary organisations, arts and cultural institutions, historical societies and local government. In conjunction with local authorities, a series of meetings will be held to facilitate "ground up" initiatives in order that local communities can get involved and put their own shape on the commemorations as we move towards 2016. A vibrant culture programme with an international dimension will be finalised in co-operation with the national cultural institutions, the Arts Council of Ireland and Culture Ireland.

The relatives of those who fought and died during the 1916 Rising will play a central role in a number of key State events. I am engaging actively with this grouping. I will also be working with the Minister for Education and Skills to develop arts programmes in schools. We will build on the links developed during The Gathering to reach out to local communities and the Diaspora. In addition to this, the committee will be aware that earlier this year the Government allocated €22 million - for 2015 - for seven flagship commemorative projects to be finalised in time for Easter 2016. They include the building of an interpretive centre at the GPO, refurbishment works at the original barracks, the upgrade of Kilmainham Courthouse and Gaol, the restoration of the historical Kevin Barry Room in the National Concert Hall, the development of a new visitor centre at Teach an Phiarsaigh, Ros Muc, the restoration of 14 Henrietta Street as a tenement museum and the development of Cathal Brugha Barracks to support a new military service pension archives facility. Each of these projects will deepen our understanding of the history of the period and provide an enduring and permanent tribute to those involved in the Rising.

In addition, we published an outline programme of official State events to be held at Easter 2016. These events will honour those who took part in the Rising in an appropriate and respectful manner. I will be happy to go into this in more detail if need be. I look forward to working with the expert advisory group and my colleagues in the Oireachtas all-party consultation group. I would welcome any view the committee would like to share today.

That brings me to the issue of the Moore Street national monument. I share the committee’s desire to see a fitting testament to the leaders of the 1916 Rising being put in place on the site. I will continue to support and encourage efforts to secure progress insofar as it is open to me to do so and it is within my remit under the National Monuments Acts. As the committee knows from its own interactions in the case, 14 to 17 Moore Street are the subject of a preservation order under the National Monuments Acts. The preservation order was put in place in 2007 to protect 16 Moore Street as the site of the final Council of War and the final headquarters of the leaders of the Rising. To enhance and protect the setting and amenity of 16 Moore Street, the preservation order covers 14, 15 and 17 Moore Street. As a consequence of the 2007 preservation order, works affecting the monument buildings require the consent of the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. After extensive deliberations, final consent under the National Monuments Acts was given by my predecessor in April for the creation of a 1916 commemorative centre in the monument buildings, involving the full repair and conservation of the structures, both internally and externally. I am satisfied that the decision made in April provides the means to secure the future of one of the most important sites in modern Irish history. I have visited the national monument and been through the entire site and surrounding area. During my visit I spoke to a number of the Moore Street traders who were very supportive of the plans for the monument and the proposals to redevelop the greater area.

The committee will be aware of the land swap deal that recently was placed before Dublin City Council. I am disappointed that the members of the council chose not to support this plan which would have released NAMA funding for the development of an appropriate tribute on Moore Street to the leaders and events of the 1916 Rising. The proposal put before the council provided a real opportunity to have the restoration work completed and the commemorative centre open in time for the centenary of the Rising in 2016. Following the vote to reject the proposal, it is now a matter for the council and the monument owners to consider the implications for the national monument buildings, the NAMA funding for the proposed restoration project and the centenary commemorations in 2016.

The granting of consent under the National Monument Acts completes my Department’s function in this case. I will, however, continue to support all appropriate initiatives to secure the restoration of the national monument, consistent with my statutory function under the National Monuments Acts and the roles and responsibilities of the other interested parties involved. In that context, I will shortly be meeting the members of Dublin City Council’s Moore Street advisory committee again to go through the process with them and encourage them to try to advance a solution that will see the restoration project moving forward.

As I mentioned, the 1916 centenary commemorations are a key priority for the Department in the coming year. I will also be working on the continued development and delivery of a rolling programme of commemorations along the decade of centenaries timeline. It is also my intention to publish the National Concert Hall Bill and I look forward to receiving the committee’s report on it in order that this matter can be progressed as a priority. Other key priorities for me will be the development of a national cultural policy, Culture 2025, which will set out the high level aims and policies in the area of culture for the period up until 2025. My Department is drafting a discussion paper which will be published early in the new year to facilitate a public consultation on this offer. This is the first time in the history of the State that any Government has undertaken such an endeavour.

I take the opportunity to mention the Arts in Education charter, something I am very eager to progress. Making the arts more accessible will be a cornerstone of my ministry. Immersing school students in the arts through a targeted strategy will benefit future generations and give young people a greater understanding and appreciation of the arts as they progress to adulthood. A high level implementation group chaired by Professor John Coolahan, professor emeritus at NUI, Maynooth, was set up to oversee implementation of the charter. This group meets very regularly and progress is being made on a number of initiatives, including increasing the number of artists in residence in colleges of education and developing a portal as a key communications and information channel for both the education and arts sectors. Suitable models for artists to become involved in the programme are also being examined by the group.

Since the Government took office, a huge effort has also been made to resolve the issue of the protection of Ireland's raised bog special areas of conversation, SAC, within the framework of the habitats directive. This has included intense engagement with turf cutting interests, farmers, non-governmental organisations and the European Commission. A long-term compensation scheme was introduced to compensate cutters for their loss. The Government published Ireland's first ever draft national peat lands strategy last January and I hope to be in a position to finalise the strategy early in the new year. It sets out the Government's view on how we can collectively manage our peatlands for many interests, including continued cutting, conservation, recreation and other uses. It also sets the wide use of peatlands in the context of Ireland's carbon reduction obligations. My Department will also continue to move forward next year with the national raised bog SAC management plan, the implementation of the compensation scheme which has been extended to raised bog natural heritage area sites and progressing the relocation of turf cutters to non-designated bogs. On the issue of wider habitats protection, I have recently obtained approval for Ireland's first ever prioritised action plan to focus attention on those protected habitats which need to be improved. Addressing our peatlands restoration objectives is very much part of this new plan, as are new agri-environment measures being rolled out by the Department Agriculture, Food and the Marine as part of the green low carbon agri-environment, GLAS, scheme.

My Department has worked closely with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on these issues to ensure farmers are incentivised to manage our most important habitats in a sustainable manner.

My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe McHugh, also has a number of priorities regarding the Irish language and Gaeltacht areas. The cornerstone of Government policy on the Irish language is its 20 year strategy for the period 2010 to 2030. My Department has an overarching co-ordinating role in implementing the strategy in conjunction with a range of key stakeholders. Progress is being made in a systematic manner across many measures under the strategy, allowing for the resources available. My Department is implementing the language planning process under the Gaeltacht Act 2012 in conjunction with Údarás na Gaeltachta and Foras na Gaeilge. Priority is being given to the Gaeltacht language planning areas identified for the purposes of the Act.

The committee may be aware that the official languages (amendment) Bill 2014 is on the A list of the Government's legislative programme and is being drafted. Subject to Government approval, it is hoped the Bill will be published by the end of the year. Following an extensive public consultation process, the Bill provides for amendments to the Official Languages Act 2003 in accordance with the commitment in the programme for Government. As the committee will be aware, my Department is the joint sponsor, with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure in Northern Ireland, on two North-South Implementation Bodies, Waterways Ireland and the Language Body. The Departments work together to support the work of the bodies in each jurisdiction.

In addition to progressing North-South co-operation, my key priority is progressing the first stage of the Ulster Canal project from upper Lough Erne to Castle Saunderson, near Belturbet, County Cavan. I am working on this with the Government and other key partners, including the North-South Ministerial Council and Waterways Ireland.

My Department continues to fund the provision of essential transport services to the offshore islands as part of its role in assisting the sustainable development of island communities. I understand the Chairman has a particular interest in the passenger service between Long Island, County Cork, and the mainland. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe McHugh, will be happy to address that matter.

Regarding offshore islands outside the Gaeltacht, I understand the local and community development programme officially ended at the end of 2013 but is being implemented on a transitional basis until the end of March 2015, pending the roll-out of the new programme, the social inclusion and community activation programme in April 2015. Officials from my Department have met senior officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to discuss the situation regarding community development offices on non-Gaeltacht islands. It has been agreed that we will work together to ensure the services they provide are retained and that both Departments will examine ways of supporting the continuation of these vital island structures and services. I am confident that an appropriate solution will be found in co-operation with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government.

I thank committee members for giving me the opportunity to address them today. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe McHugh, and I will be happy to answer their questions.

Tá mé thar a bheith sásta a bheith anseo. Tá fios agam go bhfuil ceisteanna ag daoine orm agus táim sásta iad a fhreagairt.

Cuirim fáilte roimh chuile duine atá i láthair anseo inniu. Bhí an cur i láthair thar a bheith úsáideach. Tá fios agam go bhfuilimid gann ar am ag an bpointe seo.

The Minister's presentation was very helpful and there are five or six issues I would like to raise. I commend the Minister for stressing the importance of utilising the arts to combat social disadvantage. Great work was done by members of the committee in producing the report mentioned. The engagement of the Minister with arts officers around the country indicates the fact that much can be achieved through local authorities. It is vitally important that members of the public are aware of the benefits accruing from engagement with the arts in all of its manifestations. The arts can enrich communities and lives. They can contribute to the renewal and revival of communities and be of economic benefit.

The Minister referred to the centenary commemorations. Nobody doubts the difficulties facing Ministers in striking the right balance in the forthcoming decade of commemorations. The period 1912 to 1922 was probably the most difficult and fraught in Irish history and it is important that the commemorations are tolerant, inclusive and respectful. To say the least, the public's response to the 1916 Rising commemoration proposals has been underwhelming. Looking in from the outside, I have the sense that the Oireachtas advisory committee and the expert panel were not involved to the extent that they might have been. I understand that on the day the announcement was made a presentation was made to them and I would have expected a more hands-on role for both groups in advising the Government. It is fair to say the 1916 Rising commemoration video produced has caused deep disappointment around the country. There has been much reference to it in the national media and it indicates a complete lack of understanding of the events of 1916 and the manner in which they should be commemorated. It was suggested to me that Google Translate had been used to reproduce the 1916 Proclamation of Independence and I do not believe the signatories to the Proclamation were even mentioned in the video. It would be fine to use the video to promote Ireland to tourists, but I put it to the Minister that many believe it is not an appropriate commemoration, given the sensitivity and importance of the events of 1916. Much more could be said about this, but we may not have time to do so.

I concur with the Minister's remarks about the Moore Street monument and share her disappointment that Dublin City Council recently voted in the way it did. She has suggested the pragmatic approach of developing houses from 14 to 17 Moore Street. Like her, I have visited the site and seen how the buildings are falling into greater decay on a daily basis. Urgent intervention is required as the project, if it had proceeded in the way originally envisaged, could have been delivered on time for the centenary commemorations. I do not know what will happen now, but it could be a travesty. I do not question the motivations of those on Dublin City Council who voted in the way they did, nor do I distrust those who want attention to be paid to the broader battlefield. Will the funding necessary to achieve these objectives be obtained in a reasonable timeframe or are we risking further degradation of the site as a result?

I commend the Minister on her work in the areas of the arts and education and what is stated in the report. The Arts Charter is very positive. It is very important that a person of the calibre of Professor John Coolahan is involved. This signifies the importance of the arts in second level education. Huge work has been done in promoting the arts in every primary school in the country, but things get a little ropey at second level owing to timing and so on. More work needs to be done in that regard.

The Minister referred to the Arts Council, which is of enormous importance. Its budget for this year is €56.9 million. A new chair and members of the Arts Council were recently appointed. Those appointments followed an announcement by the then Minister, Deputy Deenihan, in March 2013 when he addressed the Royal Irish Academy that he would look at the boards of the cultural institutions. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has probably heard more than she wants to hear about the cultural institutions; she will forgive me for raising such a matter again. The then Minister said he would reduce the membership of these boards and streamline them, with members serving on a pro bono basis. An advertisement was subsequently placed for those boards, including the Arts Council. Have things changed? Are the members of the Arts Council being remunerated? If they are being remunerated, who has approved their remuneration? Is their remuneration in addition to expenses they are being paid, if they are being paid expenses? If this has happened, was there any public announcement of the change of position by the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, or is it something that has happened quietly behind the scenes?

The national media made reference recently to an allegation that a member of staff of the Arts Council had been involved in the payment of a grant to a family member. I understand this is under investigation within the Arts Council. Is the Minister aware of that? It was certainly covered in the national media. Will there be an external audit or investigation? I would be very concerned about any State body, particularly a State body in receipt of €56.9 million, having a member of staff who could be involved in the payment of a grant to an immediate family member.

Deputy Michael McCarthy resumed the Chair.

I thank the Deputy for his questions. Considerable work was put into the report Utilising the Arts to Combat Disadvantage. It is in my Department now and we will work with the relevant stakeholders in that regard.

I agree with the Deputy that local authority arts officers play a major role in making the arts more accessible to everyone. They do a really good job. Last Monday week I met them and the heritage officers. It was very good to hear their views on the issues they had to raise. That is a great role that we have with the local arts officers.

I have constantly said that I want the 1916 centenary commemorations to be inclusive, respectful and appropriate. Last Wednesday week we launched an overarching plan that will allow for consultation over the next three months. I really want people to engage with this, because it is about the people. We want people to visit our website, where they can log their interests and add their views. I also want to hear the suggestions and views of members of this committee. I very much want this to be inclusive. The period of consultation is three months and I fully intend to engage with the Oireachtas group - Deputy Catherine Murphy is a member of that committee - and with the expert panel.

The Deputy mentioned the video that was a backdrop on the night. There have been some comments on it. It was one of a number of displays on the evening of the launch. It was part of a suite of materials, including the booklet, the outline programme and the information sheets on the capital projects, which were made available by the project team for the launch of the Ireland 2016 programme. The material also supplemented official speeches delivered by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, and me. So it was only one part of a bigger package.

I have said what I said about Moore Street. My role is to protect the national monument as it is laid out now. It was very disappointing, but I am happy to do what I can and work with whoever wants to try to progress this. I was down there with the traders. It would be very nice if this project could be ready for 2016. If something is not done, the buildings will continue to fall into disrepair. It would be a huge boost to the area if this project could be developed. I saw the video, and the proposed layout, including an interpretive centre, is very impressive. I hope something can be done to move this on.

Members of the Arts Council are being remunerated because new members get the same as the old members. If we want to change that, the legislation must change.

The Deputy mentioned the issue regarding a member of staff and a grant payment. The staff member was not involved in a payment situation. The matter was fully investigated and addressed by the council. The application in question was withdrawn. There was no adverse finding and no resources were at issue in that regard.

I will take a quick supplementary question, because I want to move on.

I understand the positions on the Arts Council were advertised by the Minister's predecessor and were described as being pro bono positions. If people did not apply because they understood the positions were pro bono and it has now transpired that the members are being remunerated, how can the Minister reconcile that? Is the Department, the Minister or the Arts Council at risk of legal challenge from somebody who might have applied had he or she known the position would be remunerated and now finds that the successful applicants are being remunerated? There seems to be a significant inconsistency in that situation.

On the issue of the payment of the grant, is the Minister telling us that an official was involved in the process whereby a grant was to be paid, but when the matter was discovered the application was then withdrawn and the grant not paid?

Before the Minister responds, I wish to say that there are now ten members present, and the clerk and I have to attend a Working Group of Committee Chairmen meeting at 5.30 p.m. To be fair to everybody, I ask members to confine their contributions to questions so that they can get the answers. As there are ten members, there will be quite an amount.

I also understand that a few votes are likely to be called in the House.

That is likely to disrupt us even further. I thank Deputy Murphy.

That matter was fully investigated by the Arts Council and was all sorted out by it at the time. I do not want to say anything more about it here. It was sorted out.

What about the remuneration of the board members?

I understand that board vacancies were advertised on a pro bono basis. It could not be on a pro bono basis until the legislation was changed because all members of the Arts Council had to be treated the same. I did not see the advertisement at the time but it was on the basis that the Government's intention was that it would be pro bono.

However, we cannot treat board members differently, so until the legislation is changed, they all get the standard remuneration.

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and the others present with them today. The role of the Government is to encourage the arts and create an environment where artists can thrive. If one connects the arts with the 1916 commemorations, which are about our strike for freedom, one can see that the arts are a very important and significant way to give value to that freedom.

On the report mentioned by the Minister, I understand that perhaps there is some resistance to playing a role in combatting social disadvantage among some people operating in the arts and the powers that be. However, it is important that the arts be involved, because they help us to look at things differently. This is important not just for those who are socially disadvantaged, however we define that, but also for those who are not so disadvantaged, as it may affect how they relate to people in that situation. We cannot underestimate the power of the arts in relation to racism, social disadvantage or whatever else. It can turn many prejudices on their head, and we must use it as a tool. The arts should be available to the general population because the value in the work of the artists and those who uphold the arts must be shared. The money is taxpayers' money, so pressure must be applied to measure how those involved in the arts deliver on outreach to people who are not necessarily from an arts background, so that they get the benefit of it, while still supporting our artists and the art organisations.

On the 1916 commemorations, it must be said from the outset, even as we tentatively discuss it here at the Minister's first meeting of this committee, that she will not win on this. While we all enjoy the benefits of the freedom we have now, emanating from that point in our history, we also come from different traditions, ideologies and so on, so we must allow for that. The Minister's approach is very conciliatory, drawing circles of inclusiveness around everybody, because no one group, viewpoint or ideology owns these commemorations. As we move forward, we should reflect. The events in question are now many generations back. We cannot say we have the same perspective in our society as people had then, but we must be respectful. The most important aspect of this is how we celebrate the hard-earned freedom we obtained after being under British rule for so long. What have we done with this freedom? What value has it been to our citizens?

I will ask the Minister a question, which is the nub of what I want to talk about. In my view, people in 1916 were fighting for freedom, so that we could engage in self-determination as individuals, as families and as a nation. Have we now reached a point, especially during the Celtic tiger, where a belief has been cultivated that the State will step into every gap? The State cannot make up all the shortcomings in a person's life. My concern is that I see not so much socialist ideals expressed through the democratic process, but a retrograde socialism that seeks to impair freedoms that we have won, such as we have seen in these water demonstrations and at Jobstown. I am putting that out there, that in terms of-----

Could the Deputy ask a question so that we can move on? We have nine other questioners.

In terms of the functioning of the State as a nation, to my mind, the ideology that was being pursued is that any citizen - regardless of background-----

A question, please.

-----would be free to self-fulfil, not that we would have a nanny state, which seems to be what has been promoted, and that there are some citizens who, whether because of what they have achieved or because they have money, or whatever else, are lesser citizens. We need a proper, responsible debate, not just about the rights of citizens, but their responsibilities also.

On the commemorations, I wanted to ask the Minister-----

Just ask the question, because we want to move on.

The focus is on Dublin as the core, and it is our capital city, but there is so much history to be celebrated and to be commemorated-----

A question, please.

-----around the country. We have many local historians in my town and in many towns and areas. I would like to see some sort of initiative supported by the Department whereby local history pertinent to the time could be brought into schools-----

That is not a question either.

-----and people would have an understanding of the living history and the social and political history of the time. Could the Minister look into an initiative like that, so that we can bring it out into the areas and the commemoration could be shared outside the-----

Thank you, Deputy Mulherin.

I will start with the 1916 commemorations. I was not a Deputy at the time, but would the Minister agree that the centenary of 1913, for example, seemed to be virtually ignored by the State and the Government in terms of working-class history in this city? Will the role of James Connolly and the Irish Citizen Army, for example, or the international context of 1916 be featured? The latter is very important in the sense that it was seen as an anti-war revolt as well. Given what we have seen so far by the Government, as has been mentioned before, will big business be featured in these commemorations in a way it should not be? For example, I did not know Google was in the GPO, but it seems it was if one looks at the first Government event held, which featured Google more than the Proclamation.

There has been no change whatsoever in the arts budget, despite the Minister's statement that the arts are very important in Irish life. She gave a quote about artists being the bedrock of our culture. I was contacted by an artist in my own constituency who was not impressed that all of the €4 million increase in funding was going to 1916. I agree with him, because it is two years away. Artists must work on a day-to-day basis. He made the point that they do not have heating for their studios, they cannot afford materials for their work, and they are at the pin of their collars. They had hoped this budget would signal an end to austerity for artists, but it does not. That was in an e-mail directly from a working artist. Everyone agrees with the artists' tax exemption, which allows people to work full-time as artists without being crippled with tax, but would the Minister not consider differentiating between the Bonos and the people on the ground? It seems to apply across the board, even when people are multi-millionaires, and that comes across as ludicrous to any ordinary person.

This being the first chance we have had to interview the Minister since she was appointed, it would be remiss not to say that her start was inauspicious in relation to the IMMA controversy. She should acknowledge that people saw that as being extremely negative and that it seemed the Government was using cultural institutions as playthings. I hope this signals the end of that. In addition, the Minister mentioned that she was setting up something in Cavan-Monaghan, which I think is her own constituency. Perhaps she can clarify that.

The arts officers will play a crucial role in the 2016 commemorations, particularly, as Deputy Mulherin said, to bring it outside Dublin. It is not all about Dublin - it is about the whole country.

The county councils have excellent databases of local historical societies, heritage groups and so on and we will use that medium to connect with all those organisations. Most councils are doing that already because I have attended a large number of events across the country. For example, I was in Ballina for the Cumann na mBan event. I also attended the commemorations in Castlebar where they set up a fabulous website for the decade of commemorations. That is a great medium through which we can link in to people throughout the country, and I intend to use it in terms of the 2016 commemorations.

The Minister might consider the schools also so that whatever might be prepared could be introduced.

Yes. We will work with the schools. We plan to connect with the schools through the Department of Education and Skills.

Regarding the 1913 commemorations, we commemorated the Lock-out, and quite a number of events were organised. There was a huge programme of acts supported by my Department in that respect.

On the international context of 1916, we will connect with all the embassies and the diaspora. It has been mentioned that we should look across Europe because 1916 was a huge time of change across Europe. We will be exploring links that we can make with other countries. That is something the expert advisory group mentioned, and we will work on it.

Mention was made of big businesses. Businesses will not be sponsoring the State events but I do not want to say there will not be any sponsorship because on many occasions a local business would want to support and be associated with an event. I attended an event in the museum in Ypres where Google has sponsored the recording of all the Irish who were lost in the First World War. There is also an opportunity for graduates to go there to study. In that respect we can sometimes marry with businesses on this issue to achieve a good outcome.

In terms of funding for the institutions, this is the first time in six years there has not been a cut in funding. In terms of my job, as the economy improves I hope I will be able to look for more money for the arts. I assure you I will be doing that.

On the artists exemption, we got that increased in the last budget. It was €40,000 and is now increased to €50,000 for artists so they can earn up to €50,000 per annum tax free.

Is that for all of them? Will the Minister differentiate between people who are already very well off?

It is capped at €50,000.

Regarding the Ulster Canal, which stretches from upper Lough Erne to Castle Saunderson, we hope to get the project started on that section because that is the one part of the inland waterway system that has not been developed. If we get that done, the Ulster Canal will connect into Lough Neagh. That means we will have a complete network of waterways in Ireland, which is very important. It is also a cross-Border project, and there is a peace dividend in terms of that project. It is very important in terms of cross-Border relationships. It is one shovel-ready project that can be progressed.

On the issue of the IMMA appointment, I appointed John McNulty and Sheila O'Regan on merit and I stand over that decision. I am committed to using the new system through State Boards.ie and I have written to the chairpersons of all national cultural institutions asking for the skill set required by them for people who might sit on their boards. I will be using that system in the future.

I thank the Minister. I will call two speakers together, Deputy Murphy first and then Senator Mac Conghail.

I am very pleased to see both the Minister and the Minister of State here. I made the suggestion because we have two sets of Ministers and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht tends to be the poor relation, which should not be the case. The attendance of so many people here today demonstrates that this area should get more attention than it does from this committee and others.

The national cultural policy is very welcome. It will have a local and a national dimension but I am concerned about where our cultural institutions will be by then because we already have a very serious problem. The National Museum of Ireland is considering charging for the first time. The National Library of Ireland said that only 1% of its collections can be conserved to best international practice. There are 70,000 boxes of State records uncatalogued in the National Archives of Ireland and while they are not at risk, that is not the way the National Archives should function.

I compliment the people who work in all three of those institutions who have been performing miracles for the funding with which they have been provided. While it might be welcome that there has not been a funding cut, what is most unwelcome is that this is the Department that has sustained the greatest level of cuts over the years of austerity. All of us should be very concerned about the national cultural institutions and while the local is vitally important in terms of our heritage, our national cultural institutions should have sufficient money to function.

Regarding the decade of centenaries, I am on the consultative committee where there is a great focus, and rightly so, on the centrepiece that is the commemoration of 1916 in 2016. There will probably be opportunities to do a great deal outside the capital with regard to other elements of that decade of centenaries. The centrepiece will be Dublin and while there are some welcome developments with regard to the pension records, Kilmainham Gaol, the GPO and so on, it is not clear if there will be sufficient time for the consultative process and then to plan events, given the tight timeframe. The Minister might indicate when that consultative process will be completed. In terms of the submissions that are made, what timeline are people working to? It will be very difficult for people not knowing if money will be available or if they will have sufficient time to organise events. It has been left very late.

I stated at the consultation committee that we need to have a wide vision around this decade of centenaries. We have not had that big visionary moment not just in terms of looking at the short-term in a pragmatic way, but the longer-term outcome and how the arts can play a role in that. For example, I felt envious of the debate that took place in Scotland on the referendum on independence. We need to have that vision in terms of the kind of country we want to create. The people who took to the streets in 1916, including some of my ancestors, had that vision. They wanted something better. If there is a Department that can articulate that, it has to be the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht because it is the Department that should be able to capture the soul of the country. That is why we should be concerned about our national cultural institutions. This is the time they should be funded and resourced because people are paying attention. I am seriously concerned that the view is that we just have to get it over with rather than embrace it, so to speak.

Some very good work was done on genealogy.ie. The indexes for the general register were put up on the website, but they have been taken down and not reappeared. It is very unfortunate, but we need to know when it will happen. Will the Minister outline the consultation process she envisages on national cultural policy and the decade of centenaries?

I welcome the Minister. She and I have exchanged ideas in the Seanad in the last while. I will repeat some but not all of them.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Joe McHugh, chomh maith. Is iontach an comhartha é de athnuachan a chuid Gaeilge go bhfuil sé in ann é seo a dhéanamh agus molaim go mór é as ucht an dul chuige atá aige ó thaobh sin.

I have five simple questions and will keep my contribution short. I support absolutely Deputy Catherine Murphy in her concern about the national cultural institutions. For the record and the purposes of dealing with conflict of interest issues, I am the director of a national cultural institution - the Abbey Theatre. Notwithstanding this, the sword of Damocles has been hanging over the National Library of Ireland and the National Museum of Ireland and it is of deep concern to all of us that support is given to them. On that basis and without adding additional questions to Deputy Catherine Murphy's, I note my question on the centenary.

I note that the 1916 Rising was the culmination of a cultural revolution that had started at the end of the 19th century. Any sidelining of contemporary art and artists would hollow out the impact of the commemoration in 2016. I would like to hear what role the Minister considers artists will have in the commemoration and what role the Arts Council will have. The €4 million about which we are talking is clearly not enough. It should really have gone to the National Library of Ireland and the National Museum of Ireland to physically stay open. How can we plan and what is the central role of artists? As I noted in the Seanad, there is great relief the Minister has announced the centenaries as it appeared there was paralysis. We can now get involved in disagreements. Disagreement is good. Disagreeing about the memories of 1916 is good and how artists interpret history and the future is important. The centrality of contemporary artists is important, but I have not heard enough from the Minister on this issue. Is she consulting the Arts Council on it?

My second question is based on the second recommendation in the committee's report which was published in June this year. It was also a significant recommendation at the Global Irish Economic Forum at Dublin Castle in October 2013. I refer to research and data. I do not expect the Minister to have an answer, but I would like her or her officials to come back to us on the role of data and research and how we can collate them. All I ask for is a promise to come back to the committee with a response. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure in the North has a full-time economist working on data, the funding of the arts, the impact of the arts and how research can support not only new language but also new arguments that move away from those on economics, jobs, tourism and bed nights to permit growing self-confidence around supporting and increasing the arts. I want the Minister's commitment that she will come back within a reasonable time with a response from her officials on recommendation No. 2 in the report.

My third question relates to the Minister's commitment to look at the National Concert Hall Bill. The committee is reporting back to her on that issue. Does she have any other legislation planned for introduction during her term of office that relates to national cultural institutions?

I turn to my fourth question. I commend and wholeheartedly support Culture 2025. Is there anything the committee can do to help? I note that the Minister will be issuing a paper in the new year for public consultation and urge her to ensure artists will be central to it, not administrators, politicians or even me. Artists should be included in the middle to drive it and support the Minister in articulating a future vision for 2025. I would like a commitment from her in that regard.

My final question relates to my support for the tax exemption for artists. The issue is that the majority of artists earn less than the average industrial wage. A cap of €50,000 in one year would actually help the millionaires but not young artists who might receive an advance for a novel or a major public art commission in one year. That a young artist might receive €50,000 may seem like a lot, but when one spreads it over three years, it becomes ridiculous. I am concerned that the Department of Finance is looking at reviewing the tax relief in 2015 with "abolition on the table". What has the Minister done in the background? How can we help her to retain the exemption in 2015? While it absolutely needs reform, as Deputy Ruth Coppinger said, we support artists who are on the bread line and the poverty line. We should positively discriminate in favour of artists and it may be that even a figure of €100,000 is not so considerable when aggregated over three to four years. This is not about tax avoidance but about encouraging artists to keep at their work and retain their dignity and integrity. The cap should be based on an aggregate figure as opposed to a single year. I know artists who received €50,000 for a particular project but who had no other earnings in the next couple of years. Of course, they are going to pay tax on it.

Those are my five questions.

If I miss a question, I ask members to come back to me.

I will start with the artists' exemption. It was good news to have it increased this year from €40,000 to €50,000. I accept fully what Senator Fiach Mac Conghail is saying about its aggregation over a five year term, given the drop in the incomes of artists. I agree with him and we will take up the matter with the Department of Finance.

I was asked about the role of the Arts Council and the national cultural institutions in the 2016 programme. We have proposals from the Arts Council and all of the cultural institutions and are going to move on them. We very much want them to be involved. The arts bring another dimension to the programme and it is important to use them to look forward also. They can cross boundaries that the spoken word cannot and they should be very much involved in the 2016 commemorations. That is why I took the opportunity when I was meeting arts officers separately on their own issues to say I wanted to discuss the 2016 commemorations with them to see how they could become involved. Artists and the arts will play a significant role in 2016.

Cultural capital was mentioned. I was in New Orleans only a few weeks ago when I saw how greatly the people there valued their culture and the arts. This has a hugely positive effect on the economy there. I met the mayor who gave us a document on how they valued the arts and how they translated into economic activity in the city. Investment in the arts has made a huge difference and brought long-term benefits, a point on which I agree with Deputy Catherine Murphy.

I was asked about legislation. The draft heads of two Bills are with the committee on the museum and galleries. The National Concert Hall Bill is my priority. The other two are at pre-legislative scrutiny stage.

We will expect the Minister to return to us on them.

Yes, we are waiting for the pre-legislative scrutiny process to conclude.

To respond to Deputy Catherine Murphy, the National Archives storage is being developed in the next five years. This multi-million euro capital project will deliver state-of-the-art archival storage space for public records.

On funding for the national cultural institutions, I am conscious of the difficulties the institutions have experienced. As I stated, this year, for the first time in six years, their funding has not been cut. I accept, however, that this may not be great comfort to them. I want to work with them. Having met all of the chairpersons, I am aware of their concerns. My Department continues to engage with them and we are doing everything possible to help them. As the economy improves, there is no doubt that they will receive increased funding.

I was asked about the consultation process for the 2016 commemorations. A sum of €4 million has been allocated for this purpose in 2015. The consultation process will be completed in March 2015 and we will then collate the relevant material. The findings will be published and funding allocations made in the second quarter of 2015.

If the consultation process concludes in March 2015, it will probably take another two months to study the submissions and produce a report, which would bring us to May 2015. That would leave only nine months or thereabouts before the start of the commemorations. Even modest events organised at local level require a decent lead-in time. This timeframe imposes limits on what can be achieved.

The Minister responded to my comments on the National Archives. While it is one thing to have a capital project, specialist personnel are also needed in the National Library of Ireland, the National Archives and the National Museum of Ireland. The Minister has referred to the case of New Orleans and the economic return the city generates from culture and the arts. The national cultural institutions exist on oxygen because their funding has been cut to the bone. They are at risk and this should be acknowledged.

The national cultural institutions' plans for 2016 are well advanced. We will collate the information as the plans are completed. We will not have to wait until the end of the process before commencing work. While I accept that the timeframe is short, a dedicated project team has been established for the 2016 commemorations. We will work on the issue in the meantime.

When will the indexes reappear on genealogy.ie?

We are still finalising matters with the Data Protection Commissioner. All of the data from the past 95 years are back up on the website in question.

Will the Minister give a commitment to revert to the joint committee within a reasonable period on the data and research recommendations? That is all I am seeking.

Caithfidh mé leithscéal a ghabháil mar tá mé le bheith in áit eile ag fiche tar éis a cúig. Mura mhiste leis an gcoiste, cuirfidh mé mo cheisteanna le go mbeidh siad ar an dtaifead agus beidh mé ábalta na freagraí a léamh ar ball.

Baineann mo chéad cheist le ceann de na ceisteanna a tháinig aníos an t-am seo an bhliain seo caite. Gach bhliain scaoiltear na comhaid atá sa gCartlann Náisiúnta le go mbeidh iriseoirí ábalta féachaint orthu agus anailís a dhéanamh ar na rudaí a tharla 30 bliain ó shin. Bhí moill ollmhór ar an Roinn seo anuraidh agus deirtear liom nach bhfuil an obair faoi riar i mbliana ach an oiread don réamhthaispeántas sin do na meáin ag tús Mhí na Nollag. Ar mhiste libh a rá an bhfuil sin chun tarlú in am i mbliana, mar a tharlaíonn sna Ranna eile, nó mura bhfuil?

Ó thaobh na comórthaí, rinne mé mo chuid pointí sa Seanad an tseachtain seo caite leis an Aire agus níl mé chun díriú ar aon rud eile, ach amháin ar conas a sheasann an cheist maidir le cómhaoiniú do Theach an Phiarsaigh? Tá €2 mhilliúin curtha ar leataobh i mbuiséad Údarás na Gaeltachta agus tá an Roinn ag iarraidh ar an údarás dul ar aghaidh le togra gan an cómhaoiniú a bheith aontaithe ó na Ranna eile. Tá sin aisteach - a bheith ag cur an dualgais sin orthu. Chomh maith le sin, má tá an €2 mhilliúin sin á thógáil as buiséad an údaráis, cá bhfágann sé sin an t-údarás? Sin €2 mhilliúin a bhí le caitheamh aige ar rudaí eile an bhliain seo caite. Beidh siad gann i ndiaidh sin. Cén tionchar a bheidh aige seo ar an mbuiséad caipitil?

Maidir le hAcht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla, i gcead don Aire Stáit, tá súil agam nach dtiocfaidh sé chun cinn i mbliana. Sílim go bfhuil lochtanna bunúsacha leis an gcur chuige atá ag an Roinn agus léiríodh é sin ag an bhfochoiste a bhí ann ar maidin i dtaobh choimisinéir teanga na Breataine Bige. Sílim gur b'fhiú fanacht leis an rud atá againn seachas dul ar gcúl leis na moltaí atá déanta go dtí seo agus sílim gur cóir athbhreithniú iomlán a dhéanamh.

Maidir le maolú na Gaeilge san Aontas Eorpach agus an 188 post atá le cur ar fáil. Bhí deich mbliana ag an Rialtas le bheith ag obair ar seo. An bhfuil an Rialtas chun deireadh a chur leis an maolú sin anois agus an bhfuil sé chun na poist sin a chur ar fáil?

Freisin, céard atá ag tarlú maidir le bád farantóireachta ar Inis Mór agus ó thaobh maoiniú don seirbhís farantóireachta i rith na bliana ar fad? Tá ceisteanna agam freisin faoin gcéibh ar Inis Oírr agus faoi chúrsaí uisce ar an oileán sin. D'ardaigh an comharchumann na ceisteanna seo leis an Roinn, ach céard atá ar siúl maidir leo? Luaigh an tAire na deacrachtaí ó thaobh an scéim Leader agus mar sin de. Tá deacracht ollmhór ag na hoileáin Ghalltachta ó thaobh an mhaoinú reatha. Deir an Roinn go bhfuil an maoiniú ar fáil go dtí Mí an Mhárta seo chugainn, ach níl siad sásta leis an leagan amach sin. Cad iad na socruithe atá á gcur in áit ag an Roinn le go mbeidh socrú fadtéarmach ann dóibh siúd?

A division has been called in the Dáil. We will suspend the sitting and resume when the division has been taken.

Sitting suspended at 5.15 p.m. and resumed at 5.40 p.m.

I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State to the committee. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is very interested in pursuing the arts in education charter, and it is something which is also close to my heart. Will she update us on the progress made in her communications with the Department of Education and Skills and the short to medium-term targets for the charter? A number of cities are bidding to be the European capital of culture 2020, including my own. When will this process begin?

In her opening remarks, the Minister outlined very well the position with regard to Moore Street. In July this year the relatives of the 1916 leaders released a statement that they were very supportive of the Government's decision to proceed with the preservation of the four buildings. Has their view on this changed? Are they in support of the urban battlefield idea? If this is the case, I presume there is no funding for it because it would involve the preservation of the alleyways and the entire area on Moore Street. The original idea was to be financed by NAMA. I have much sympathy for the Minister, as she has worked quite hard behind the scenes on resolving the issue, but it looks like it is now an issue for Dublin City Council to resolve, although I know the Minister will do whatever she can informally behind the scenes. She outlined the fact she has no statutory function in this regard. It would be a shame to see a project such as this not come to fruition when one sees the plans put in place with regard to the historical trail from the GPO to Kilmainham courthouse and jail. Will the Minister consider putting in place an independent person who may be able to convene a meeting, if it were helpful, with the families to try to resolve the issue?

With regard to the centenary in general, the Minister mentioned it will be spread throughout the country. It would be appropriate to leave a legacy, which was mentioned by other members, by commissioning high-quality landmark arts projects in the spirit of the ethos of 1916, in particular of the artists, musicians and poets of the time who helped shape our identity. It would be very fitting and a very good way to spend money, which I know is not in great supply, to have a legacy in the regions and cities. Arts officers would work very well on commissioning such arts projects.

The questions asked will require replies from the Minister and the Minister of State. I remind members of the tight timeframe. The Joint Committee on European Union Affairs is due to meet in this room shortly so we have a double time pressure. After these replies I will go to Senator Ó Murchú and Deputy Ó Cuív and I have a couple of questions myself.

Le freagra a thabhairt ar na ceisteanna maidir leis an gCartlann Náisiúnta, mar atá a fhios ag an gcoiste, cé gur chaill muid an spriocdháta anuraidh, tá sé i gceist go mbeidh na comhaid a bhaineann leis an Roinn ar fáil roimh dheireadh na bliana.

Maidir leis an maoiniú do Theach an Phiarsaigh, thug mé cuairt ar an togra sin i gContae na Gaillimhe i rith an tsamhraidh agus chonaic mé an tsárobair atá ar siúl ansin. Tá an Roinn ag cur €2 mhilliúin ar fáil don fhorbairt ag Teach an Phiarsaigh agus tá moltaí le dul os comhair bord Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Fáilte Éireann. Cé nach bhfuil aon ról agam sa phróiseas sin, tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh freagra agus toradh dearfach ó na boird sin. Maidir leis an bpróiseas atá ar bun, ba mhaith liom go mbeadh ceangal idir an bpobal agus na páirtithe leasmhara éagsúla agus go mbeidís ag obair le chéile, ó bhun go barr, ar an togra seo. Tá sé fíorthábhachtach go rachadh sé ar aghaidh agus go mbeadh sin an philosophy don togra ó bhun go barr. Mar sin, ba mhaith liom go leanfadh an obair ar aghaidh air sin.

Cuireadh ceist faoin mBille teanga. Ó tugadh an post úr seo domsa i lár an tsamhraidh, tá an Bille teanga ar m'intinn. Tá an Bille seo á dhréachtú faoi láthair agus tá súil agam go mbeidh sé foilsithe roimh dheireadh na bliana chomh fada agus a bheidh an cead sin faighte ón Rialtas. Tuigim gur tháinig mo chuid oifigeach os comhair an fhochoiste ar a bhfuil an Seanadóir Ó Murchú mar Chathaoirleach níos luaithe i mbliana agus táim ag súil go mór le tuarascáil an fhochoiste sin a fheiceáil go luath.

Maidir leis an gceist i dtaobh na Gaeilge in institiúidí na hEorpa, beidh cinneadh le tógaint roimh dheireadh na bliana 2015 faoi thodhchaí an mhaolaithe. Sa chomhthéacs sin, tá plé ar bun ag an Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta i gcomhair le Roinn an Taoisigh agus páirtithe leasmhara éagsúla, institiúidí an Aontas Eorpaigh san áireamh, ar mhaithe le moltaí sonracha a fhorbairt maidir leis an gcur chuige is fearr i dtaca leis an maolú. Beidh an cheist seo le breithniú ag an Rialtas in am trátha. Bhí roinnt mhaith daoine i dteagmháil liom ar an ábhar seo agus tá a fhios agam gur ábhar tábhachtach é. Fanfaidh mé i dteagmháil leis an gcoiste ar an ábhar seo. Beidh cruinniú ar siúl amárach agus cruinniú eile amach anseo ar an ábhar seo.

Cuireadh ceist freisin ar chonradh farantóireachta Inis Mór. Chas mé le dreamanna leasmhara i gContae na Gaillimhe i lár an tsamhraidh. Bhí mé iontach gnóthach i lár an tsamhraidh ag casadh le grúpaí úra agus chas mé leis an ngrúpa atá ag obair ar an gceangal idir an mórthír agus na hoileáin.

Tá sé iontach tábhachtach. Bhí mé ar Oileán Thoraí coicís ó shin. Tá a fhios agam an ról fíorthábhachtach atá ag an báid farrantóireachta ann. Maidir le conradh farrantóireachta Inis Móir, cé nach bhfuil aon chonradh ann, cuireadh in iúl dom le déanaí go bhfuil sé i gceist ag an gcomhlacht leanúint leis an tseirbhís chéanna don oileán. Maidir leis an gceist ag baint le Inis Oírr, tuigfidh an Seanadóir go bhfuil an buiséad caipitil laghduithe le cúpla bliain anuas, ó 2008 ar aghaidh. Tá fios ag gach aon duine anseo na laghduithe atá sa bhuiséad i mbliana ach níl aon laghdúchán i mbuiséad na n-oileán. Ach maidir le cé Inis Oírr, caithfimid maireachtaint taobh istigh den bhuiséad atá againn.

Maidir leis na hoileáin nach bhfuil i gceantair Ghaeltachta, ba mhaith liom sibh a chur ar an eolas go raibh mé ar Inis Arcáin agus ar an Oileán Mór cúpla seachtain ó shin. Chas mé le daoine atá ag obair go dian ann, oibritheoirí Stáit agus oibritheoirí eile ag obair go deonach. Chonaic mé an tsárobair atá ar siúl ar an oileán sin. Táthar ag obair le chéile ansin. Tá an obair sin fíorthábhachtach d'oileáin nach bhfuil i gceantair Ghaeltachta. Tuigeann an Roinn comhshaoil gur tháinig deireadh leis an LCDP, local and community development programme, ag deireadh 2013 ach tá sé i gceist leanúint leis an obair go deireadh Mhí an Mhárta 2015, nuair a thiocfaidh an clár nua, social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, i bhfeidhm. Tá mo Roinn ag plé leis an Roinn comhshaoil chun réiteach a fháil maidir leis na comhlachtaí forbartha áitiúla ar na hoiléain nach bhfuil i gceantair Ghaeltachta. Bhí cruinniú agus turas go dtí na hoileáin ag oifigigh ón Roinn ghnóthaí Gaeltachta agus oifigigh ón Roinn comhshaoil inné. Ba mhaith liom ráiteas dearfach a fháil faoin togra seo. Beidh fáilte roimh smaointe úra agus cabhracha eile atá ag aon duine maidir le hobair na ngrúpaí chomhdhála nó na grúpaí éagsúla eile, Níl aon difríocht idir oileáin nach bhfuil i gceantar Gaeltachta agus iadsan atá baint lárnach acu le ceantar Gaeltachta. Níl aon difríocht ann maidir le seirbhísi tábhachtachta, seirbhísí atá ag obair le chéile agus le seandaoine agus daoine óga agus ag obair go dian dícheallach ar son sláinte an phobail agus chun ceangailt a chruthú ann. Táim chun súil a choimeád ar sin.

In response to Senator Naughton’s question on the arts in education charter, the aim of the charter is to increase the number of artists in residence, conduct national art school initiatives, work with the cultural institutions educational departments, co-fund arts training for teacher training, build a best practice portal, and support the implementation committee. It has met 27 times to conduct hearings. I am very committed to the issue. In conjunction with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, I met the committee chaired by Professor John Coolahan. We were both newly appointed as Ministers and we wanted to show our support for the arts in education charter.

I will provide an update on the European capital of culture. I intend to seek Government approval in the coming weeks for Ireland to exercise its right to submit a nomination for the European capital of culture for 2020. Subject to that I will issue an open invitation for interested cities to put forward their candidature for consideration. The designation of European capital of culture is much sought after and highly prized. It is one of the best known EU initiatives. A lead-in time of several years is required for application, development of the plan, selection process designation and preparation before the start of the capital of culture year.

I have met two different groups of families in connection with the Moore Street site. Both have very different views. One group is very supportive of the development of the project in Moore Street, and the other is against it. I am very clear about my job, which is to protect the monument, Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street. The matter is before Dublin City Council. Reference was made to a legacy of arts projects in terms of commemorations. That will be part of the overall discussions with the Arts Council. We would like to have projects organised in conjunction with the commemoration of 2016.

Before I go to Senator Ó Murchú I wish to ask the Minister of State, Deputy McHugh, about the tender for the Long Island ferry. Two tenders were sent to the Department. The Department wrote back to both of the companies who tendered, terminating the tendering process. Could the Minister of State explain why that was the case?

I thank the Chairman for tabling this question. I had a chance to discuss it with the officials prior to the meeting. The Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht has a contract with Mr. Maurice Coughlan for the period from 1 December 2011 to 30 November 2014 for the provision of a passenger ferry service between Long Island in Cork and the mainland. As the contract was coming to an end, the Department sought tenders for a new contract through a public tendering process, advertised in the normal way on eTenders. The term of the new contract was to be from 1 December 2014 to 30 November 2019, ministerial approval having been granted for the new contract to cover a five-year period rather than a three-year period, as is currently the case.

The deadline for receipt of tenders was 15 August 2014. After that date a tender assessment committee was established to assess the tenders. Having worked through the assessment process it was the committee’s view that there were issues within the tenders received. The committee sought the advice of the Department’s evaluation unit, the Office of Government Procurement and the Chief State Solicitor’s Office on the most appropriate course of action. The legal advice was the tendering process should be terminated and that a new tender competition should be advertised. To achieve a solution, the Department was left with no choice but to extend the current contract for a period. Ministerial approval was obtained to extend the current contract for four months up until 31 March 2015. The Department advertised for tenders for a five-year contract to commence on 1 April 2015. That is not unprecedented. As the procurement process for the contract is under way, and based on legal advice, it would not be appropriate to give any details regarding issues relating to the previous tenders.

Both of the tender providers tendered for the contract previously and were awarded it. What changed in the meantime? The correspondence to one of the providers - I presume to both - stated the determination on the basis of financial projections included indicated that no suitable tender was received and consequently the tender process had been terminated.

Both have tendered for the contract before and have won it at various stages under the very same process. I am familiar with one of the operations. I am not a financial expert. The provider would argue there would not be any difficulty in terms of the robustness of the financial case included or the wider financial circumstances around the individual concerned.

Would it not be normal practice is such situations for the Department to contact the tenderers and facilitate a re-submission or give them an idea of where they have gone wrong? I understand that was the case in the past. Why was this not done in this case?

I am conscious of the tendering process which is up and running again. The Chairman may have information which he regards as important but with respect to the details of the tender, it would not be appropriate for me to comment. I do not have any input into the tendering process when it is under way. The tendering process goes through its appropriate process.

In reply to the Chairman's second question, under public procurement rules there is a requirement to adhere strictly to the rules. There is an issue but I am not aware of the specific issue. It is not appropriate for me to say anything but if the Chairman is of the view that he has information which would be helpful, my officials can discuss it with him.

I appreciate the Minister of State's response. I understand that he is constrained in what he can say. I ask that the officials in the Department who are dealing with it would contact my office directly because there is information that might be helpful to that process.

Absolutely. The officials in my Department are very good and they are dealing with the ferry services to both the non-Gaeltacht and the Gaeltacht islands. We can organise a meeting with the Chairman to brief him on the process.

I thank the Minister of State.

I thank the Minister for a very wide-ranging presentation. Many of the items which she mentioned tend to interact. It is interesting how most of them tend to refer back to the 1916 commemoration, and that is as it should be. If we are talking about culture, art and the Irish language, they were all particular elements relating to the 1916 Rising.

We should all work towards creating as much unity as possible in regard to this commemoration. There are some misunderstandings in the public domain which can be addressed in a simple and straightforward manner. Some of these come, perhaps, from the vacuum which was created because the programme had not been brought forward, although this is not anyone's fault. I believe that there is a growing interest among the public in this commemoration, for all kinds of reasons. First, it led us towards our independence, and second, it is because of the number of relatives whose ancestors fought in 1916. There is always that community aspect of any commemoration which could very well be the bedrock of a very successful commemoration. We should work towards as much unity as possible. That does not mean we have to be uniform. As mentioned at this meeting, many people have different ideas and perhaps different experiences of and relationships with 1916. All of those can be accommodated without any great degree of difficulty.

It is a pity that the question of the presence of a royal personage at the 1916 commemoration was put forward at such an early date. We had an even worse scenario, if I might use that word, which was the idea that we were going to have a company of the British Army marching down O'Connell Street. That gained a certain level of credence as well. To some extent that has distracted from the building of a real commemoration, much of which has been sidelined at the moment. It was also a pity that the historians got involved at too late a date or so late, because they could have played a very significant role in the debate. I refer to Diarmaid Ferriter's contribution in this regard. What is important is that, whatever misunderstandings have arisen, these should be laid aside because the one thing we do not want is to debase this commemoration through disunity and disharmony. We have to do something about that.

I put forward the notion of a people's commemoration in a broader sense. Another group refers to a citizens' commemoration but I think a people's commemoration will happen anyway. There will not be an area in Ireland where there is not some activity which will reflect that community's interaction with the commemoration. This interaction and activity will be very strong. The people's commemoration should not be rewrapped in some way that it is intended as opposition to the State commemoration. This should be a partnership along every yard of the way and I think this will happen anyway.

On the Moore Street issue, I am disappointed at the situation. Many people invested much time in this concept and project over a number of years. We are at a stage where instead of being able to say we are making progress, we have people taking opposing positions. I urge the Minister, arising out of her own comments but I have made this point at previous meetings of this committee, that there should be a round-table private discussion with the city council, the Department and the families. I do not have any doubt that it would work.

I suggest the solution would be along the lines that we would go along with the Minister's proposal for Moore Street but that the idea of the battle site could be considered at a future date and in other circumstances. We have to accept that it is regarded as one of the most important battle sites in Europe. The National Museum of Ireland has made this point. We should not become bogged down as to whether it is the whole battle site or the buildings. There is great potential in what the Minister has said about the plans for the buildings. However, if the other issue is not put to bed, it will be a distraction from the buildings. I am confident that a solution can be found with the city council, the Department and the families involved. I have had a lot of connection with them over recent years. I introduced them to a former Taoiseach who met them. I know that whatever is happening here and the friction which is developing is not a friction that can be laid aside. I urge the Minister, even though it might seem like a difficult task, and I do not mean in saying this that there should be cameras or newspapers present, to have a private discussion with representatives of the city council and everybody else in order that there can be a full understanding of what is on offer. I do not think there is yet a full understanding of what is on offer. The concerns of those who want to go further can certainly be laid to rest by the idea of moving forward at a further stage.

I wish to make a point on the Irish language. The committee had a meeting today with the language commissioner from Wales, Meri Huws. We had a very good meeting with her. We went to Wales five or six weeks ago and we met the First Minister, with the Arts Council, with the Eisteddfod and with the commissioner. We had a very prolonged two days of work. What struck me very forcefully was the similarities between Wales and Ireland. In fact, it was said to us that their language Act is based on our language Act to a large degree.

Today, the commissioner offered to meet with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe McHugh, to chat with him about her views. There is a global body of ten language commissioners whose meetings she attends, so she would not only be dealing with the Welsh experience, but also with that of the other commissioners. It would be very worthwhile to take her up on that offer. The new language Bill must bring on board all those who have supported its previous incarnation, which was unanimous in the Oireachtas - as was the 20-year strategy - and interestingly brought all the language organisations with it. The Minister knows as well as I do that I have only ever had the objective of keeping politics out of the language. It belongs to no political party. It belongs to the people and is central to the 1916 commemoration. I am slightly afraid that if we do not keep the goodwill that is there, the political divisiveness which I have not seen in almost 20 years may come back again. I ask that the Minister consider this in the interest of broadening the debate on the language Bill.

I fully support the charter for the arts, which I think is a wonderful idea. My own organisation, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, is very deeply involved. We are interacting with the schools as was intended in the charter and have now introduced our latest initiative, TradTime, into 100 schools. We are providing the back-up teachers and so on and the initiative is being expanded. The Minister for Education and Skills is to meet me to see how we can develop it further. There is a waiting list for schools wanting to come in. It is exceptionally successful and is tax compliant. It has all the elements the Minister of State requires and I was glad to hear him mention it today. It is something we could build on in a big way.

I support what Senator Ó Murchú has said regarding Moore Street. We need to find a resolution. If everybody is around the table and they stay there until they solve it, I have no doubt they will do so. Between now and 2016, it would also be a good idea to develop a trail of all the 1916 sites around Dublin and around the country. County Kerry is involved because of Roger Casement, County Galway because of Liam Mellows, and so are County Wexford, County Laois and many other places. It would be a good idea to develop a trail, for Irish people and people from abroad, so that all of the sites could be brought together. In the case of Dublin, I am envisioning a walking trail, a green line down the streets leading to all the sites.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil sé fíorthábhachtach a thuiscint nach mbeadh an méid a tharla i 1916 murach an teanga. Níl aon amhras faoi sin. Cuir i gcás cinnirí 1916. Ní bheidís gafa le polaitíocht murach go raibh baint acu le Conradh na Gaeilge; Eoin Mac Néill go deimhin. Pádraic Mac Piarais agus go leor eile acu chomh maith céanna. Taispeánadh pictiúr cúpla bliain ó shin san Galway Advertiser. Baineadh an pictiúr le daoine a bhí ag an Oireachtas. Bhí an oiread acu san gafa nó páirteach san Éirí Amach ina dhiaidh sin. Ba thragóid é dá ndéanfaimis iarracht céiliúradh a dhéanamh - is comóradh atá á dhéanamh ar 1916 - gan rud éigin a dhéanamh don teanga ag an am céanna. Bheinn ag súil mar chuid de chomóradh 1916 go gcuirfear an t-airgead breise - caipitil agus reatha - a theastaíonn ón Údarás ar fáil.

Is dóigh liom, thar aon rud eile ó thaobh 1916, agus le hómós a thaispeáint do chinnirí 1916, gurb é an rud is mó go bhféadfaí a dhéanamh ná an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge a chur i bhfeidhm go hiomlán. Cloisim an rud seo: "De réir mar a bheidh acmhainní ar fáil". Beidh acmhainní ar fáil amach anseo ach b'fhéidir nach mbeidh an Ghaeilge mar theanga baile láidir a thuilleadh san Ghaeltacht. Dá gcuirfí €3 milliún nó €4 milliún breise ar fáil as caiteachas an Rialtais, b'é an rud céanna le teaghlach le hioncam de €50,000 ag cur €3 ar fáil do rud éicint. B'shin an t-ionannas a bheadh ann - €3 breise a chur ar fáil. Is ionann €3 breise do theaghlach le €50,000 do chaiteachas agus €3 milliún ó thaobh an Stáit. Ní dóigh liomsa go bhfuil leithscéal ar bith ann agus muid ag déanamh comóradh ar 1916 a bheith ag caint ar acmhainní a bheith mar fhadhb. Ba mhaith liom ceist an-díreach a chur ar an Aire Stáit. An lagú nó láidriú a bheidh i gceist leis na leasuithe ar an Acht teanga?

My view is that the Proclamation should be at the centre of the 1916 commemorations. It mentions "Irishmen and Irishwomen" three times. It specifically mentions the "happiness and prosperity of the whole nation" and an Irish Government "elected by the suffrages of all her men and women". It is a very democratic document. The argument they had, of course, was that the Irish men and women were not getting the choice of picking their own form of government. The most misquoted phrase in the Proclamation is about "cherishing all the children of the nation equally", "oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past". This is specifically alluding to reconciliation within this island between the Unionist and Nationalist traditions. There is nothing in that Proclamation that needs to be discarded, which is extraordinary given the events of the past 100 years. It actually says it all, and therefore our challenge is not the Proclamation - in my view, that can stay at the centre - but the implementation of the Proclamation. Any commemoration that does not have it as the central theme is not being true to 1916.

Would it be possible for the Minister of State to suggest to his colleague in the Department of Education and Skills that the 1916 Easter Week Commemoration Scholarship be reinstated forthwith? I cannot for the life of me understand cén fath gur cuireadh deireadh le scoláireachtaí 1916 ach sílim go mba cheart go gcuirfí ar ais iad. There should also be a schools programme around the events of 1916.

I welcome the Minister's continuation of the work on the Ulster canals. There was quite a bit of work done on that in my time and I was very anxious to see it progress on a step-by-step basis. I was going to bring it to Clones, I am not sure whether the place the Minister mentioned is further or nearer than that.

It is not as far as Clones. We will start it anyway and we will get it there.

I take the view that even if she were to get it half a mile, we should just nibble away at it until we get it finished. It is of strategic national importance and if we could connect Coleraine, where I was the other day and where my poor car is getting mended, all the way down the coast through Lough Neagh down to Shannon and back up the canals, it would be a fantastic facility for the island. I will not be heard complaining in any way that it is in the Minister's constituency - that just happens to be a happy coincidence in this case.

Ba mhaith liom a rá leis an Aire Stáit go bhfuil tuilleadh bunstruchtúir ag teastáil ar na hoileáin. Tá cé d'Inis Oírr ag teastáil go géar. Tá pleanáil ann don chéibh sin. B'shin an t-aon chéibh amháin fágtha ag an Rialtas le déanamh. Tá an chuid eile ar fad déanta.

Níl sé sabháilte. Má théann an tAire Stáit ann i lár an gheimhridh, tuigfidh sé é sin. Beidh na tonnta cearta ar chuan na céibhe, isteach ar an gcéibh agus caithfear duine sa fharraige. Maraíodh beirt in Inis Meáin ach tógadh cé nua ann. Ach tarlóidh tubaiste in Inis Oírr fós. Agus cuirfí an cheist ansin, "Cén fáth nuair a bhí gach rud eile déanta nach ndearnadh an chéim sin?". Teastaíonn clár forbartha bunstruchtúir ar na hoileáin. Mar a dúradh cheana, dá mbeadh €3 milliún nó €4 milliún in aghaidh na bliana ann, dhéanfadh sé.

Luadh bád Inis Oírr. Tá fadhb ollmhór fós ann. Glacaim leis go bhfuil an bád ann ach tá muintir na n-oileán seo ag íoc i bhfad níos mó ar na ticéid ná mar atá na daoine ar aon oileán eile. Tá sé sin le feiceáil go mormhór i leith leanaí scoile ag dul go cluichí peile agus imeachtaí eile ar an mórthír. Teastaíonn sé go géar go mbeidh na ticéid ar aon phraghas leis na ticéid do na hoileáin eile. Mé féin a thug isteach an coincheap nach bhféadfadh an ticéad d'oileán dul ós cionn phraghais áirithe. Bhí sé €8 nuair a bhí mise ann. Tá sé €10 anois. Glacaim leis sin. Ach tá sé i bhfad nios mó ná sin, tá sé €15 nó €16 ticéad fillte ar Inis Mór a cheannach, ainneoin gur as an oileán sin is mó a thagann paisinéirí. An féidir leis an Aire Stáit a rá cén uair a lorgófar tairiscintí nua don tseirbhís aeir go dtí na trí oileán Árainn?

Can the Minister give me an assurance that, in the event that Bord Fáilte decides not to stump up the money, the Government will just take the money from somebody, including Bord Fáilte, and give the money to the project? This is Bord Fáilte spending State money and, in such cases, an agency should have the choice of something that is a keystone in the commemoration programme. Therefore, we need a simple statement by the Government that full funding will be provided, that an agency, whether Údarás na Gaeltachta or Bord Fáilte, will be given the money, and that it will be ring-fenced for Teach an Phiarsaigh. Once and for all, this should finish the uncertainty about the funding of the project.

Finally, I noticed today that there has been very little discussion about hen harriers and bog cutters. The total non-acceptance by rural people of EU regulations on habitats is a major challenge. One farmer in Connemara put it graphically when people were talking about the GLAS scheme. He said that Cromwell sent people to Connacht but at least he did not put any conditions on it. That says it all. Most rural people feel that the way the habitats directive is implemented, from Europe and in this country, inhibits people from becoming landowners and willing partners in conservation. Without the willing partnership, we will not get the desired conservation. We must think this out again and come up with a system whereby people are recognised as custodians of the national heritage. The Minister has a role to play, along with her colleague in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I was critical of the new Common Agricultural Policy because we paid lip service to high-nature farming, but when it came to-----

We have no time left for replies.

-----the best source of funding for high-nature farming, which could resolve these issues and which was being thrown into these areas in recognition of their importance by the European Union, it was suddenly pulled back by the Government. This leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht will suffer the whirlwind. We must make a major move towards recognising that if people are going to be the custodians of the natural heritage, they must still put bread on the table and feed their families.

Before we started, I explained that we were caught for time because the room is booked for 6.30 p.m. There are people outside waiting to come into the room. We do not have time for replies on those contributions. I will ask the Minister and the Minister of State to communicate directly with Deputy Ó Cuív and Senator Ó Murchú in respect of their questions. I thank our witnesses for their attendance.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.25 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 2 December 2014.
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