Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht debate -
Tuesday, 24 Nov 2015

Vote 34 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, and the Ministers of State, Deputies Ann Phelan and Paudie Coffey. I also welcome the Secretary General, Mr. John McCarthy; the assistant secretary, Ms Mary Hurley, and other officials from the Department, as well as Ms Sarah Boucenna from the European Parliament Office, Dublin who is in the Visitors Gallery.

At the request of the broadcasting and recording services, members are asked to ensure that for the duration of the meeting their mobile phones are switched off or left in flight mode as, even when left in silent mode, they cause interference with the broadcasting system.

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss improvements that may be desirable in the performance information included in the Estimate and a review of the position on outputs and expenditure in the 2015 Estimate for the Department. During the first part of the meeting we will focus on opportunities to improve performance information made available to the committee by the Department, while during the second we will consider the current position on Vote 34 generally and whether there are emerging pressures or issues, of which the committee should be aware. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On the performance information included, perhaps the Minister might clarify in the first instance if his Department accepts the New Zealand guidance provided for it by the secretariat as a basis for the creation of effective performance measures and if it has particular issues with it.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Alan Kelly)

The view is that it is a good idea, although it will take some time to bed it into the process. The new template from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for how Departments are to provide output indicators for 2015 which has been informed by the New Zealand guidelines is a good one. We will engage with the secretariat to do as is stated through the process.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his response. It is welcome that the Department is favourably disposed to using the template. It has been difficult in recent years to develop a process into which the committee can have an input in consideration of the Estimates. Invariably, as a policy, there will be a huge discussion on it. Getting the template correct to begin with is of huge benefit to us all. Does the Minister intend to ensure progress will continue to be made on a co-operative basis? For example, all going well today, will he commit to this being the process into the future, although I accept that may not be possible, given that, in the context of the forthcoming general election, we will probably have a new Government and new committees next year?

Deputy Alan Kelly

I do not think the outcome of the general election should be allowed to get in the way. The process now in place is valuable and sensible and will yield results. My Department will adhere to it. The view across government is that it is a worthwhile approach.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his clarification of that point which addresses the issues for consideration in the first part of the meeting.

We will now move to the second part and deal with the review of outputs and expenditure. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I welcome the opportunity to set out the progress made to date in 2015 in expenditure under the various programmes in my Department. The total allocation for my Department in 2015 is €1.329 billion, of which €834 million has been allocated to current expenditure programmes, while €449 million has been allocated to capital programmes.

The total allocation for my Department in 2015 amounts to €1.329 billion, with €834 million allocated to current expenditure programmes and €494 million allocated to capital programmes. To date in 2015, some €847 million, or 64%, of the overall allocation has been spent, namely, €647 million on the current side and €200 million on the capital side. The provision of more than €1.3 billion to the Department for 2015 is firm evidence of the Government’s commitment to the sector. Department programmes are also benefiting in 2015 from resources available from both the local government and environment funds.

Turning to some specific areas in housing, 2015 has seen a very significant level of new investment in housing across a range of measures, which will increase the supply of homes to be made available. In 2015 the housing programme accounts for 51% of the overall allocation for the Department. The overall provision for housing increased by more than €230 million since 2014, with capital funding having been increased significantly by €160 million. This investment is providing for significant expansion in social housing provision with a target of more than 15,900 housing units to be delivered in 2015 under a range of social housing initiatives. More than 2,500 of these units are being delivered under the various capital programmes with more than 13,000 units targeted to be made available through the local authority leasing scheme, the rental accommodation scheme and the housing assistance payment scheme.

Social housing continues to be a top priority for the Government and my Department and this is evidenced by the additional funding recently announced in budget 2016. In overall terms, housing spend by my Department will increase by 18%, from €686 million in 2015 to €811 million next year. An additional €56 million will be made available for capital programmes and a €69 million increase in current spending. In addition, €112 million will be provided directly by local authorities, bringing the total housing provision in 2016 to €923 million. This provision will support the delivery of more than 17,000 new units in 2016.

In the area of local government, the Local Government Fund has undergone significant change in recent years. While motor tax continues to be paid into the fund, local property tax, collected by the Revenue Commissioners, is now also coming into the fund. The year we have seen the ending of the general purpose grant payments and the introduction of the local property tax being paid to local authorities through the fund.

Some 80% of the local property tax revenue is being retained locally to fund vital public services. The remaining 20% is redistributed to provide top-up funding to local authorities that have lower property tax bases due to the variance in property values across the country. These measures are necessary to create a balanced system of funding across local authorities. The Government has devolved more powers to local authorities in recent years by giving elected members discretion to vary the rates of local property tax by up to 15%. This allows for greater transparency and accountability at a local level. Some 14 local authorities lowered their basic local property tax rate for 2015.

The income sources to the Local Government Fund this year are estimated to be motor tax of €1.167 billion, local property tax of €440 million and a payment from the Exchequer of €233 million. My Department will make payments estimated at €1.839 billion from the fund in 2015, including local property tax payments to local authorities of €459 million, payment of €364 million for the maintenance of non-national roads to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, and a payment to the Exchequer of up to €484 million.

With respect to water services, €399 million is being provided from the Local Government Fund to Irish Water in 2015 in respect of operational subvention. This is funding the allowance of 21,000 litres of free water, which is being provided to all children in the State along with the cost of capping domestic water charges at the levels set out in the Water Services Act 2014. To date, some €297 million has been paid to Irish Water in 2015 from the Local Government Fund.

The 2015 Estimate for my Department also contains an allocation of €130 million for the new water conservation grant. The estimated level of demand for 2015 took account of the number of primary residences recorded in 2011 Census of Population as well as experiences with other demand-led schemes. It is expected that the final outturn in respect of the grant, including administrative costs, will amount to some €97 million.

The Government remains committed to supporting the group water sector as a very important element of the water industry in Ireland. This was reflected in the provision of €17.5 million in 2015 for my Department’s rural water programme, under which funding is provided for group water schemes.

The environment and waste management programme provides for expenditure of €35 million in 2015, largely to meet the cost of the important work of the Environmental Protection Agency, including the work of the former Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, which was merged successfully with the agency in 2014.

The environment fund, financed from the landfill and plastic bag levies, provides a further €44 million to be directed to key priority areas such as environmental enforcement, waste prevention and recycling.

The Leader elements of the rural development programme provide for voted expenditure of €45 million in 2015. Up to €30 million of this is to meet the outstanding commitments under the 2007-2013 programme, which has been successful with over 9,000 projects receiving funding. Financial support has been provided to over 8,000 enterprises and over 4,000 full-time jobs have been created. In addition, provision of €15 million was made for the new 2014-2020 Leader programme, which will build on the previous programme’s success in creating new and innovative opportunities for rural businesses and communities.

The Vote provides funding for the local and community development programme, LCDP, which concluded in March and for its successor, the social and community activation programme, SICAP, which was rolled out from April. SICAP takes account of the new alignment of local development and local government in its objectives and delivery. In particular, SICAP is being managed and implemented through the new local community development committees, as the new governance model for local and community programmes in each local authority area. The allocation of over €45 million for 2015 to cover the funding requirements of both LCDP and SICAP, as well as related supports, has allowed further good progress to be made in this vital area. I expect the 2015 allocations will be fully spent by year end.

As I outlined earlier, 64% of the Department’s overall allocation for 2015 has been spent to date. I expect significant further expenditure to take place by the end of 2015. Traditionally, a significant proportion of the Department’s capital spend takes place in the final months of the year. Where savings emerge in the finalisation of departmental spending in 2015, consideration will be given, in consultation with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, to the appropriate use of the resources concerned. I expect to meet any additional requirements in 2015 from within existing departmental allocations without the need for a Supplementary Estimate.

I have kept my remarks as brief as possible to allow members an opportunity to discuss both the activities of the Department and how our programmes and significant resources are being deployed in 2015 in greater detail. Those programmes are benefiting communities and citizens across the country, making the maximum contribution to job creation and economic recovery and helping the less well-off in our society.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. Before I call members, I find the system we have used in recent times of a question-and-answer session with the Minister is more productive from a member’s point of view, as opposed to speaking for seven or eight minutes and not getting the answers to the questions one has raised. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Before we begin, I have one point I wish to raise.

Chairman

If Deputy Coppinger does not object, Deputy Catherine Murphy has the floor. The convention is that the first speaker will be from the Opposition. As Deputy Catherine Murphy is a spokesperson in this area, she will be first.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I did not mind that. I did mind, however, when the Chairman commented as I spoke to my colleague. I did not know there was a silence restriction on us.

Chairman

There is not. The meeting has been on for the past 15 minutes. Whatever impression the Deputy got was clearly the wrong one. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy who will proceed, without interruption.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The Minister anticipates 64% of the Department’s overall allocation for 2015 to have been spent to date. What will not be spent and under what headings before the end of the year?

The area of housing accounts for 51% of the overall allocation for the Department. It is pretty difficult to scrutinise this when one is only counting one part of the equation and when the other side is covered by a different committee. That concerns the amount of moneys allocated through rent supplement and increased rent supplement. We have a housing crisis that was predictable. In fact, this committee debated it and more or less drew attention to it several years ago. The scale of the crisis is out of proportion to the amounts available in the budget. Does the Minister have an estimate of what is necessary to deal with the scale of the housing crisis?

Does he believe the response is in proportion to that? Much of the money is being allocated on the current side rather than on the capital side on matters such as housing assistance payments. Essentially, they represent a residual payment as opposed to a permanent response. The local authorities are allocating €112 million directly. From what budget is that coming? Is that on the capital or current side?

On local government funding, the general-purpose grant is being dispensed with. That, of course, was the mechanism for funding local authorities in advance of the introduction of the local property tax. Essentially, the property tax is a replacement tax rather than an additional tax. Some 80% is retained by the local authorities and 14 local authorities reduced their local property tax. Some counties are net contributors and others are net recipients. If a net recipient is capable of reducing its local property tax, is that factored into the equation for the following year?

The Minister said the lower property tax base is the reason for determining the 20%. Is there any evaluation of the level of services local authorities are capable of providing? For example, the needs and resources model used to be the model for determining if there was buoyancy in the general-purpose fund. There are huge differences in the ratios for staff in different parts of the country. It is pretty difficult to catch up, particularly in growing areas, without factoring that in. Will the Minister address that issue?

The Minister said that the €399 million provided from the local government fund to Irish Water in 2015 relates specifically to the free water for children along with the capping of domestic charges. Will the Minister give us the breakdown of costs, specifically regarding the provisions for children? Further to the €100 grant for conservation, has the Department completed any analysis or measurement of conservation or is there any intention to have such a measurement? Should it be called conservation if it is not possible to measure it?

Money was provided on the capital side for housing outputs. How many houses have been built and will be built by the end of the year from that budget? What kind of lead-in time will be needed to deliver? What proportion of houses might be delivered? Have the various local authorities carried out any analysis in that regard? It is important to be able to deliver on the money that is allocated.

What is being done in that context?

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank the Deputy for her range of questions. I will try to get through them, but if I miss one, I will come back to it.

I wish to make a general comment on the underspend in the Department. Typically, much of the drawdown takes place near year-end, given the local authority and housing aspect. I ask the Deputy to bear this in mind. For instance, the figure for the housing spend in November and December 2013 was 57%; in 2012 it was 56%; in 2011, 47%, while this year we are ahead with a rate of 65%. That means that we are ahead of where we were in the last three years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does the Minister expect all of the money to be spent by the end of the year?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes, that is my ambition. There has been an underspend in a number of areas, including on the water conservation grant. There are issues with leasing because the rental sector is difficult, but we have increased spending in dealing with the problem of homelessness.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I refer to the underspend in the leasing of houses. Is the Minister saying he cannot find houses?

Deputy Alan Kelly

We are maximising the spend. We have provided funding to literally fill the void. We have used it to turn around more voids which means that we have supplemented one for the other, which is a good and quick way to deal with the matter. The Deputy has spoken about voids on numerous occasions and I am glad to say we have increased their output. There is an extra spend in dealing with the problem of homelessness, of which I am sure the Deputy will approve. We are very confident that there will be very little that will remain unspent, if any, in the housing capital budget because we have concentrated on the issue quite a bit.

I will outline some housing statistics and information because many Deputies and Senators will have questions on the topic. In 2014, the number of new building acquisitions was 285 units. This is the first year of the strategy and we will triple the figure to about 950 units. The Deputy specifically wanted to know the number of builds that would be generated under the strategy. There will be in excess of 200, but the figure will increase on a yearly basis. In the first year of the strategy we have approved local authority building projects and voluntary housing investments to the tune of about €500 million to provide some 3,000 units. Further approvals will be finalised in the weeks ahead. It makes more sense to buy rather than to build in some parts of the country because there is excess housing stock and it represents better value.

We have made major progress in the roll-out of the HAP scheme, with over 5,000 households being supported across 18 local authorities. As the scheme is rolled out and more people avail of it, there will be even greater success.

I mentioned leasing in substitution for voids. We have done a huge amount of work on voids and there is more to be done. Last year we turned around 2,300 voids and expect to turn around 2,500 by the end of the year. I have met many local authorities, particularly those in Dublin. I wish to make it clear that whatever funding is required to turn around voids to provide social housing units as quickly as possible will be provided. The Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, and I both believe such an initiative is the quickest way to provide housing.

We have taken a number of other measures to increase supply. A package of measures to deal with supply in the rental sector has been announced in the past couple of weeks. We have also provided a substantial amount of extra funding to tackle the problem of homelessness.

The Deputy asked whether local authorities used their own resources.

It is estimated that €119 million is being used by local authorities from their own resources.

The Deputy has asked about other areas in which there has been an underspend. We expect an underspend under the Leader programme because of the way it will kick off.

I have been asked how much money will be required to provide housing in the years to come. The €4 billion provided for in the social housing strategy is, by and large, what will be required in coming years to address the issues of which we are all aware. I am delighted with the current amount we can project over the required number of years to address social housing issues. We have serious issues with social housing unit numbers, social housing lists and how they are defined. Next year will be the first when we will have a fully verified number for those who are actually on housing waiting lists, which will be quite helpful. We have put in place a comprehensive strategy with funding amounting to €4 billion. It is a strategy my Department is determined to fulfil and deliver for those most in need of housing.

The Deputy asked for a breakdown of the figure of €399 million. In 2015 there is €60 million for the child allowance; the capping cost is €129 million, while there is a subsidy of €211 million.

The Deputy asked me to define the term "water conservation grant". Of course, payment of the grant is not contingent on people stating a purpose for which it shall be used. Detailed information has been provided on what we believe it should be used for, whether it be for wells, water butts, desludging septic tanks or many other efficiency and environmentally friendly measures. I have noticed that a phenomenal volume of new technologies are emerging via SMEs and small companies. Such technologies will be replicated in other jurisdictions in years to come. However, what happens in the first year of the programme will need to be evaluated to see where and how the funding was spent.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How can one evaluate it if there is no link with conservation?

Deputy Alan Kelly

I ask the Deputy to give us a chance because we are only in the first year of the programme. We will engage with those who use the grant to find out.

Chairman

I ask members to be mindful of the clock. We have spent 20 minutes in debating the first item on our agenda. I remind everyone that time is scarce.

Deputy Alan Kelly

One cannot judge whether a grant has been successful in its first year of operation. One must analyse what it is being used for and we will do so. I know, anecdotally, from the volume of new technologies and products emerging that it is being used. Perhaps the Ministers of State might wish to comment.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Paudie Coffey)

For the HAP scheme, it is important that I clarify that we have a target of approximately 8,000 units to be delivered this year. We expect the figure to be slightly lower this year, but we will reach the target in the first six or seven weeks of 2016. We are putting HAP scheme funds into the voids programme, as the Minister outlined. We have far exceeded the targets set, for which credit is due to the local authorities. We asked them to step up to the mark to deal with voids and they did. As a result, we expect over 2,500 voids to be turned around this year. They are the most logical and obvious place in which to invest because we need to bring existing housing stock back into beneficial use as soon as possible.

On acquisitions in some local authority areas, as the Minister said, it represents better value for money for taxpayers to buy rather than build houses. We expect over 750 social housing units to be delivered through direct acquisition by year end. They will be ready for immediate occupation once the acquisitions have been completed. Building projects are also under way.

We have been asked how much it will cost to resolve the crisis.

I want to make it quite clear that it is not just about the money. Money is being provided and obviously resources and funding are very important, but there are other issues also, especially in the private sector in which there is a very dysfunctional market which affects the entire housing sector. There are issues within local authorities and approved housing bodies. Over 3,000 units have been approved by the Department and there is funding to deliver these units, but there is a process by which they will be occupied. Planning under Part 8 by the various local authorities must be gone through and builders must then be procured through the tender processes before building can take place. There is a time lag between approval and actual allocation and occupation of units. All resources are being put into and efforts made by the Department and local authorities to prioritise this.

Senator Cáit Keane

I welcome and thank the Minister and the Ministers of State.

With regard to actual measurement of performance, it must be asked if it is up to us, as legislators, to draw up the measurements to be used? When one looks at performance Europe-wide, Ireland does not rate well. However, if Ireland was to be rated on its performance since 2010, the performance level would read very differently in that it would be a higher and better percentage.

An overall allocation of 51% for housing represents a figure of more than €230 million, which is to be welcomed. I congratulate the Minister on the priorities he has set. There are 15,900 units to be provided in 2015. That is a big difference from the time I was on the council in the years before I entered the House. There was no social housing being provided and the system in operation did not work, perhaps through no fault of the local authorities. I hope, therefore, that this new funding and the priority being given to the programme will help to make it work now.

Reference was made to the local authorities' spend on housing. I understand some local authorities perform better than others. I know that Deputy Jerry Buttimer tabled a question last week about how the council was performing in Cork city versus Cork county in terms of the moneys being spent. Will the Minister clarify if the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has a benchmark for each local authority to see how it is performing and who is the best boy or girl in the class? Where is the rap on the knuckles? I know that the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, has congratulated the local authorities on their voids programmes, on which I also congratulate them. In my area South Dublin County Council has really stepped up to the mark in making voids available, but there is more scope with this programme. It was pointed out to me by a local councillor in County Roscommon recently that two rural houses owned by the county council were falling apart because it was too expensive to renovate them. The council would use nearly all of its money for voids if it was to be spent on these two properties. However, there are developers who are ready and willing to take them over and perhaps lease them back through the HAP scheme to the local authorities. More should be done in that regard. I will supply further information on the matter to the Minister.

We hear criticisms all the time from Senators about the allocations from the local property tax, motor tax and general purpose funds. It could be beneficial, therefore, to see a graph showing what was given from them in the past five years to be compared with what is being done now.

I take issue with the Minister when he says the Government has devolved more powers to local authorities. I have analysed the powers devolved from full councils to district councils and also from central government to local government. They are minimal. I have them on paper and will forward the list to the Minister of State. I have conducted my analysis of what I term new local reserved functions. As I expected him to do, Councillor Walter Lacey responded to me because the new powers-----

Chairman

The Senator could forward them on because I do not believe they feature in the Estimates.

Senator Cáit Keane

No, because it was mentioned that the new powers devolved-----

Chairman

I am sure the Department could view it as intellectual property, but they are not referred to in the Estimates.

Senator Cáit Keane

It was written down in the book at which the Minister would look and a committee was to be set up to look at further devolution of functions to local authorities. I would like to see that happen.

I understand there is a problem with some rural group water schemes where the funding is not being made available for them. I would appreciate comment from the Minister on that. It is a problem in many counties. Some of the schemes which are taken under the auspices of the local authorities are doing fine but some of those outside of that system do not do so well. I will not go into the matter of waste prevention now but it is an important issue particularly the Repak tyres issue. I congratulate the Minister on the work he is doing, hopefully the 15,900 units will be on stream before we say "boo".

Deputy Alan Kelly

Before we say "boo", I do not know about that.

Senator Cáit Keane

I understand the priority which the Minister gives the issue.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is important. The Senator raised the issue of local authorities. I outlined where the Government stands on spending in this area. Much of the drawdown for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government comes towards the year end but this year it is even further ahead on spending than previous years. The Ministers of State, Deputies Paudie Coffey and Ann Phelan, and I have been constantly monitoring and managing the local authorities.

For the benefit of the committee I will outline a baseline of where the local authorities were. Local authorities were simply not in a position to deal with building houses and providing social housing, in the way that was required, up until this year. That is why I have provided more than 300 staff, most of whom are already in this space. It took a bit of time to ensure this staffing complement was ramped up to the level required. We needed to go through a process on that to ensure that local authorities were facing in the direction of building houses to the scale that is needed. That is why the spend at this level is higher this year than it has been for a number of years. The Department also wants to make sure that all local authorities do spend. It would be wrong for me to say that all local authorities are presenting at the same level. Some local authorities have embraced the delivery of housing at a different level from others and I congratulate them. Some ramped it up quicker than others while not all at the same level. However, they are at the space now where they have positioned themselves to deliver the €4 billion strategy which was announced this time last year.

Senator Keane asked about the measurement of local authorities and whether the Department maintains tables on their performance. By and large, yes. Checks and balances are being put in place all the time to ensure that local authorities are monitored in great detail across all areas of housing spend and delivery. A particular eye is kept on those areas that are key priorities for the Department, particularly the key urban areas. However, if some local authorities are coming to year end and if they have been very diligent in spending all their money, then the Department will look at further funds for them if necessary because their delivery rate is so impressive. With voids, for example, which are social housing units that are boarded up, some local authorities have been able to turn them around a lot quicker than others. I congratulate those that have done so; we need to create a standardisation across the local authorities on the issue of voids. I would not like to see a continuation of the slower timelines of turnaround. We want to create an expectation and a standard by which voids will be turned around to ensure they will not be left vacant for a long period of time.

The Department also has a number of other measurements - which are not just financially based - by which it measures, for example, the length of time houses are vacant between occupancies. We also measure the amount of refusals for social housing offerings.

That can be more than 40% in some local authorities, which is a matter of concern. Where that happens, it means the units are left vacant for longer because the prospective tenants are turning them down. The movement to choice-based lettings, of which we are advocates, will help to address that.

I am aware of the Senator's concerns regarding Roscommon. Others have also raised concerns. We are examining them. The housing needs assessment will be done next year and from then on it will be carried out every year by the Housing Agency. That is a critical issue because we need to ensure we have consistency on housing numbers and those who have social housing requirements in years to come. We can then compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. For example, there were figures in respect of the number of people in Cork who needed social housing. There was then a choice-based analysis involving communicating with those who where on the list. The figures differed substantially. That shows that the analysis needs to be done every year and not every three or four years so that we can keep on top of it.

The Senator asked a specific question on rural water schemes. I have met representatives of the National Federation of Group Water Schemes on a number of occasions and I addressed that body's conference this year. The federation's main request was for a multi-annual funding approach which we have addressed. There are many legacy issues which we are trying to resolve. We have a priority-based system involving the local authorities. Through that priority-based system, we are allocating the funding as we can. We are engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform - I think this is what the Senator is referring to - on a number of legacy issues which date back some time and which may go beyond the scope or scale of the traditional funding to group water schemes. Significant legacy issues need to be dealt with in certain parts of the country.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

I will give some further information on HAP which will be of interest to the committee members. Of the 31 local authorities, 18 are now administering the housing assistance payment scheme. We are extending that by taking three or four local authorities at a time. Obviously, training and resourcing are needed. At the current rate, between 150 and 200 housing applicants are transferring into the HAP scheme per week. Even at the current rate, without extending the scheme as we intend to do, we will comfortably meet the 10,000 target for the HAP scheme for 2016. It is working quite well in those local authorities, but the intention is to extend it further.

The Senator raised an important question on voids. Some local authorities have existing housing stock not categorised as void and rather almost categorised as derelict, having gone beyond the normal interventions to turn a void around. We are planning on making further provision in 2016 under our remedial works and regeneration schemes to address that stock. There will be measurement indicators. We will ask local authorities to come back in terms of maintenance of stock. Some local authorities are better than others. Some maintain their existing stock very well and there is no need for large-scale investment in derelict or regeneration programmes. However, others have neglected maintenance programmes in their housing stock and we want to see that improved. We are now providing the funding to get that stock back into use.

I reiterate a worrying statistic. In the case of some local authorities with quite substantial housing waiting lists, more than 40% of people are refusing the offer of a house. We must recognise the underlying problems in this regard. It is not just about the house; there may be anti-social issues in an estate, etc. It behoves all of us, including the local authorities and the Department, to identify and address those problems. That refusal rate is too high and we need to see those houses being taken up. Choice-based letting is one way to address it but there is also a need for interventions by local authorities to improve estates so that people want to move into those houses.

We recognise those challenges and we want to fund and resource local authorities to address them.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Ann Phelan)

I wish to advise the Senator that we have set up a working group on the rural water issues. All the stakeholders sit on that working group. We are looking at all the issues the Senator has mentioned, in particular the issue of multi-annual funding that will be required to address the longer-term legacy issues.

Chairman

Before calling Deputy Cowen, I remind members we have half an hour left and there are still six speakers.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

May I make a suggestion? At the rate we are going, we will not get through the six members who have questions while the Minister is here. Three Ministers have come in and answered one question at length. Could we take in questions from three or four members and then have them answered?

Chairman

That is a good idea. I suggest we take Deputy Cowen and then questions from other members. I call Deputy Stanley.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I wish to make a suggestion. In the lead up to this meeting I asked for a detailed breakdown of the Estimates and expenditure, but also on housing. I have not received that information. Given the time constraints here and because different figures are being thrown around, I suggest we adjourn the meeting and committee members, if they wish, can be briefed by departmental officials.

Chairman

All this is just eating up time.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I know that.

Chairman

At 2 o'clock there was a briefing on the Estimates for spokespersons. I was the only person who showed up. I have no notion of adjourning the meeting. I now call Deputy Cowen.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We do not have the figures here today.

Chairman

Deputy Cowen has the floor.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I think it is unfair.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I will be as brief as I can because I understand the time constraints. I have no doubt many questions will emanate from the figures in the presentation that has been made. We can do that in writing to the Minister and expect him to respond accordingly.

It is the first anniversary of the Minister's announcement of €4 billion for social housing. Within that plan, was it envisaged that only 200 units would be built in the year since then? Will the €30,000 cap on repairing voiding units be lifted? Will local authorities have local discretion to carry out the required work to turn around those houses more quickly than heretofore? At present, irrespective of whether the fault lies at the door of the local authority or the Department, it is taking in some cases for €4,000 to €5,000 worth of work to be done to a house. People are left waiting while only 64% of the budget has been spent at this stage of the year which is not appropriate.

I welcome last week's announcement of the proposed tenant purchase scheme. I have been calling for a newer version of the scheme since it was abandoned in 2013. It has many worthwhile aspects, on which I commend the Minister. Will the funds raised locally be retained locally as an incentive for local authorities to reinvest in their housing stock or enter into agreements in order to provide more housing units for those on the housing waiting lists?

On the provision of new units, the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, was in Banagher, County Offaly, a few weeks ago - we were quite glad to see eight houses built after four years. Notwithstanding that, the cost associated with it was €2.2 million for eight units. I am more than delighted that people have been accommodated in a county where the list extends to 2,000. Having said that, it works out at €275,000 per unit. How does that wash with the public when we consider that Project Arrow is being sold to private investors for supposedly €1 billion, 50% of them residential? This would indicate €500 million worth of residential units throughout the country which can be purchased for approximately €100,000. Those units are finished and ready for people to be housed in.

Is the Minister not disappointed that the Government has not given serious consideration to a better return on our investment in respect of the social dividend that one expected from NAMA?

Local authorities throughout the country are finalising and preparing budgets for the forthcoming year but they were informed in recent weeks of a global evaluation in respect of utilities, which results in a reduction in income in the forthcoming year for many. In my county yesterday the Department gave a rebate to meet that extra cost. The loss is €440,000 and the Department reimbursed €227,000 and said it was a one-off payment which would not be repeated next year and the council should make provision as re-evaluation continues, although I think only 25% of the total re-evaluation has taken place. The reimbursement to local authorities was somewhat selective. In Offaly, for example, it amounted to little less than 50% while in Kilkenny I believe it was 100%. Why is there discretion between counties? My county of Offaly is very dependent on the utilities such as Bord na Móna and the ESB. If the decision taken recently by the courts in Edenderry were to be replicated we would be at a loss of €1.7 million in rates income. How could we compensate for that? The Minister says that only 64% of the budget has been spent. There are areas that have yet to be allocated towards the end of the year. Will there be further allocations to those counties that have been short-changed?

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is the anniversary of the social housing strategy and I have confidence in that strategy. We will provide 946 units this year because we have to take into account acquisition and building. In many parts of the country, dare I say in some midlands areas, which Deputy Cowen and I represent, it makes more sense to buy where there are vacant properties and we are not able to supply, than to build. The Deputy asked about the cap as he has asked before. The €30,000 cap is required but many local authorities come in under that. They are required to maintain their stock. They can supplement the funding with their own resources and many do if they need to go over the cap. Voids in different areas, even within one local authority jurisdiction, can cost different amounts. They are a contribution to the local authorities to maintain their stock rather than a continuous payment to maintain it. The local authorities are expected to maintain their stock. They use their own resources and we give them up to €30,000 to be able to do so. Some do it very well, some less well. Some are turning around an incredible volume of voids, particularly in Dublin city, where there have been 800.

The Deputy has asked on numerous occasions about the tenant purchase scheme and I was glad to be able to put together a plan to bring it about. It is quite comprehensive. By anyone’s analysis it is pretty fair.

"Yes" is the answer to the Deputy's next question. The funds raised will remain with the local authorities to use as they see fit. They could add them to the €30,000 for voids.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister is not going to lift the cap.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is a contribution and not the whole payment. The local authorities have to do that themselves.

The Deputy mentioned eight units in his constituency. The Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, is more familiar with this than I because he was there and looked at them. My information is that this was a case of the local authority doing something as a prototype. It was energy efficient passive housing, which we have heard a lot about of late. I accept the Deputy’s analysis of the costs but it was doing this as a prototype or sample scheme. It wants to see if there are long-term savings from a bigger outlay at the beginning. Sometimes we blame local authorities for not thinking outside the box but in some cases we should give them a chance. I like the fact it is being proactive and I would like to see local authorities being even more proactive.

By the end of quarter three of 2015, 2,526 of 6,574 units identified by NAMA as potentially suitable have been confirmed by local authorities as being suitable for social housing. Completed housing unit transfers to date stand at 1,241, together with a further 359 which have been contracted and where completion work is under way. This brings the total delivery of social housing from the NAMA portfolio, either completed or in the process of being done, to approximately 1,600.

I take the point in respect of the valuation issue. I do not have specific information on the Deputy’s local authority. I did not go into the detail. There was detailed engagement between the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and each local authority on this issue last week. Everyone knew this valuation was coming but the timing of it was an issue. It was in the middle of the budgetary process. We considered how we could deal with that and ensure that local authorities over the coming year would not be at a loss. In the valuation of the ESB and other utilities, one side went up and the other went down. It differed across all local authorities and as a consequence, some local authorities were hit, including the one in the Deputy’s area. We agreed to supplement that but I will give the Deputy a separate note on his local authority because I do not have that detail here.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I would like the Minister to clarify that so that there will be no ambiguity because the cost to the local authorities went up in both in the instances I have given. One was refunded to the tune of 100% but the other was not. It is important we get a list of the variance between each county and the funding allocated at the last minute as a once-off. There is an election coming, it is very-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

If we did not address it, the Deputy would be giving out as well.

Deputy Barry Cowen

If the Minister had been listening to what I said, he would know that my next question is about only 25% of the re-evaluation taking place. Why is that the case and how long has it been going on? I have called for a total overhaul of the commercial rate system and will be doing so in the context of the general election. That will be a debate for another date.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is a debate for another day and it goes beyond this Department.

In regard to the specific question, obviously assessments and valuations were coming down the road and everyone knew they were coming. The Valuation Office is independent. It was making its assessments for the ESB and utilities. There is a variance across the entire country in that they went up and down. What we committed to towards the end of last week was to get back to the local authorities and, because of the budgetary process and the issue created this year due to timing, help them out on a one-off basis next year. It is an ongoing process. The valuation process will take place in another area next year. As part of that, an allocation was made. As for specifics on a county by county basis, obviously we do not have that here. However, I will get a breakdown and a note and if there are any concerns we will address them.

Senator Cáit Keane

Will they be circulated to the committee?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

I will be brief. To return to the €30,000 cap question on voids on which the Deputy seeks clarification-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I thought we had agreed that we would all be able to ask our questions and that the Ministers would then respond after a number of members-----

Chairman

After the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, concludes, I will do that.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

What amount of time remains?

Chairman

I will go beyond 3.45 p.m.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Okay.

Chairman

I invite the Minister of State to continue.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

We can get the figures for the Deputy. There is a variance in cost per unit of turning around vacant houses right across the various local authorities ranging from €15,000 per unit to €40,000. We have to be very careful not to reward local authorities who are neglecting to maintain stock. If the cap of €30,000 is lifted the danger is that we will reward those local authorities that are not investing adequately in the annual maintenance budgets of their stock. As I said earlier it is important to acknowledge that some stock has gone beyond the normal void turnaround. This could be called a derelict tier. The Department is looking at putting in place funding to bring those back into beneficial use. They will cost in excess of €30,000 per unit. We will be asking local authorities to come forward with their proposals on a once-off basis to get them back into use and after that they will be expected to maintain them in the normal way.

In regard to the eight units in Banagher, County Offaly, which the Deputy welcomed, costs were associated with the site in terms of enabling works. The units are in the middle of the town and were a regeneration project. In addition they are passive units so they have a much higher spec than the normal unit and the Department was willing to fund them. We will monitor them over time in terms of energy efficiency and all the other benefits expected from passive housing. The Department believes there should be flexibility in terms of specifications, that one should not tie down a high spec because it brings into question the issue of viability, as we have seen recently with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. If there is a high spec on delivery of units there are viability issues in terms of the cost of delivering those units. That is an issue we can debate further down the road.

Chairman

For the remaining speakers, I will take questions only, please. I will begin with Deputy Robert Dowds, followed by Deputy Brian Stanley, Deputy Helen McEntee, Deputy Ruth Coppinger and Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I acknowledge the huge work the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, and his Department have done in the area of housing as I am more aware of it than most people.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Robert Dowds

On the policy of purchase of private housing for social use, are specific bands given in counties where there is a shortage of private housing? I can see the logic of it in a county such as Leitrim where there is much empty housing but in the greater Dublin area it would have a very negative impact if private units were being bought for social use. Where stands development on the supply of water from the Shannon which is a long-term project and has funding been allocated or spent in that area?

In regard to the issue referred to in Cork, which I am sure applies in other countries, where there are high levels of refusals in terms of offers of social housing my suspicion, and I think it is also the Minister of State's suspicion, is that some of it may relate to anti-social behaviour. Are efforts being made by the Department and individual councils to try to get on top of that problem because it is persistent in many places?

Deputy Brian Stanley

To recap on what I said at the outset, we do not have the figures available here today to carry out a proper scrutiny. I would like to be supplied, even at this late stage, after the meeting with the breakdown of housing figures for this year. Different sets are put forward and then they are overtaken by another set and those announced prior to that are reintroduced. It is a back and forward process which can change. It is very fluid. I am disappointed that the breakdown is not available. I flagged this three or four meetings back. The agenda I have here follows the letter. I have read the briefing documents that are available and the programme expenditure for the current year but I do not have the information available to carry out the scrutiny we need to do.

Senator Cáit Keane

I had it on PDF.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Senator had 15 minutes at her disposal, I have only a few minutes. It is not available to me. It has not been sent to my office. In respect of the Estimates, there is an increase in the capital budget for housing on what was set out in programme expenditure, of €47 million which would provide for 280 units. On relets, I was interested to hear one of the answers or a suggestion made in that regard. Where houses are vacant - I appreciate that some are in a state of dereliction - is the option of having private contractors refurbishing them, taking them over and leasing them back to the council being considered? If so, that would be damaging in the long term. I can understand getting quotations from private contractors when the house is refurbished to be relet by the local authorities. Perhaps the Minister would clarify that issue. Up to a few months ago, if a house was abandoned, the local authority was in a position within a number of weeks to repossess and relet it before it deteriorated and before too much damage was done to it. Local authorities now have to advertise in the local press on a number of occasions that the house is vacant and are paying thousands of euro for such advertisements. If somebody comes along and wrecks the house, it is taking the house out of use for a longer period, there are more costs involved in refurbishing it and more work has to be done on it. I am aware the Minister passes through the constituency regularly, and is seen around regularly these days, so I can show him examples of where this is happening. I am very concerned about this issue as everybody wants these houses occupied. This puts a greater cost on the Department and on the local authority. The Government says it wants relets speeded up, which is what we all want. That is good for everybody, including tenants, councillors and so on. However, the problem is that this has slowed down the process and placed a huge burden, not least an advertising burden, on local authorities and further repairs need to be carried out.

On the issue of the refusal of allocations, it is unfortunate that is happening. Those of us who have come through the local authority system know the reason that is happening in most cases. It is because some local authority estates or parts of local authority estates are controlled by little gangs of bullies. I mention the legislation and the resources available to the local authorities to try to deal with estates and the tenant liaison officers. This is a serious issue.

When genuinely good families who are on the waiting list and who want to move into a home are allocated a house, they have a week or ten days to make a decision. After great soul searching, they sometimes turn the offer down. They do not want to turn it down but they do so because of what is happening. That must be examined. Again, there is a huge cost because, as the Minister pointed out earlier, the house is left vacant for a longer period. The resources of the tenant liaison officer, the powers of the local authorities and the co-operation of the Garda must be beefed up.

Did the Minister say there were 230 local authority houses completed in the first 11 months of this year and there were 700 purchases made to date by the local authorities?

Deputy Helen McEntee

I welcome the Minister, the Ministers of State and their team. It is important that the Minister's priority has changed to housing. While the work has been slow to date, hopefully it will start to increase. I welcome the funding that has been allocated. Unlike some, I do not wish to see houses thrown up or regulations relaxed. We should not encourage that. Nobody wants another Riverwalk, Priory Hall or the like affected by pyrite. In that regard, how much money has been spent so far this year on fixing homes, apartments or buildings affected by pyrite or where problems have been caused by workmanship or lax regulations during the boom? With regard to pyrite, it is welcome that additional funding was allocated this year. For how many years in the future will funding have to be allocated and has provision been put in place for that?

Finally, €364 million has gone to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Does that go to the Department broken down by each county? Obviously, County Meath has a large population and an extensive road network and I believe it has been underfunded for many years and should get its fair share back.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

The Minister said that social housing continues to be a top priority. As we have very little time, I will focus on that topic. There is no evidence that social housing is a top priority. The Minister's figures are constantly shifting.

I wish to clarify the spending figures. I have all of the data with me on the number of new social houses that are being produced. The Minister said there has been increased capital funding of €160 million for this year. The total capital spend on housing for the year, according to the Estimates, is €376 million. According to the Department's figures published on 19 November - the Anti-Austerity Alliance quoted the Minister's figures a couple of weeks ago and we were told they were out of date so these are five days old - the last time that public capital expenditure on housing was that low was 1994. The Minister is spending less money on social housing than the last and previous Governments did. We must go back 20 years to find a lower figure. The Minister is shaking his head but I will happily read out the figures or give them to him if he does not believe me. They are on the Department's website for all to see. They are under the heading "Public Capital Expenditure on Housing".

In 1994, a sum of £353.9 million was spent, which is slightly lower than what the Minister is spending now. In 2008, when the recession started, more money was spent on social housing than the Minister is spending now. Only this Government has reduced the figure and not increased it. In 2008, a total of €2,303.2 million was spent in capital expenditure. That is far more than is being spent now, when one considers that the housing crisis has really emerged in the last couple of years. The Minister constantly claims that he is spending more than anybody before him spent, but the figures do not stack up. Can we clarify the Minister's latest claims?

I have the Department's figures for new social housing output. They are five days old. New social housing output for Q2 in 2015 shows 324 houses or apartments in progress and completions of 157.

Basically, between completions, acquisitions and voluntary housing, there will be only 403 new houses or units by the end of this year. With another 324 in progress, there will be 727 new units with a month left to the end of the year. Where is all the housing the Minister talks about?

Last March, in answer to a written parliamentary question on local authority housing provision, in a breakdown of social housing the Minister stated that 1,400 houses would be built, with 440 for special needs. Are they included in the figures or are they still coming on stream? He also mentioned 55 Traveller-specific units. Again, are they included in the figures or are they still coming on stream? I see where Deputy Stanley is coming from but all we can go on is what the Department puts on the website as outputs every quarter, not what the Minister claims in a press release or an announcement. We can only go on what has been physically produced.

The number of houses is very low and this is a huge disappointment for people. The Minister claims that we like it when people are wallowing in misery. We are the people who are dealing with the misery every day on our doorsteps. Other Deputies are in the same position. We are inundated with people who are homeless and living in the misery that has been created over a few years. I do not blame it all on the current Government, but its claims that it is doing more than any Government did previously are utterly wrong. Less is being spent on social housing now than was spent under many previous Governments. If there are other figures we will listen to them, but I have gone to the trouble of digging them out and bringing them here.

I am confused because many announcements are being made. The only figures we can use are the Department's figures for voluntary housing and council housing. A total of 20 council houses were built in the first two quarters of the year. It went from 20 to a big fat zero in the second quarter. Does the Minister acknowledge that is the case? He said it would multiply by ten by the end of the year, so there must be some acceleration taking place in the councils to produce them in the next six weeks. If that was the case we would all be delighted. How can the Minister continue to make these claims when none of the figures backs him up in any way? Has he abandoned previous targets? Even with these targets he is only meeting half of what he said. He said 1,400 in March, but there will be only 700. He is producing half of the number of houses he promised, and even 1,400 would have been way below what is required.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I wish to follow up on the housing issue and clarify what might be called the war of the figures with regard to the social housing crisis. It is not the Chairman's fault, and I am not sure where the responsibility lies, but we do not have enough time to do what we should be doing here. There must be a forensic analysis of these figures. If the OECD has condemned the Oireachtas, quite correctly, for a spectacular failure in measuring outputs against Estimates and so forth and if we are promising we will do something about that, this is not a good example. We have an hour and a quarter to deal with the outputs for the money spent. Perhaps the Minister will respond to that point, because the topic we are dealing with here is Estimates and outputs.

What we are engaged in is not satisfactory and not serious budget scrutiny.

Where are the figures which we certainly need for the numbers of new applicants on local authority housing lists this year? All of the figures the Minister has given us are meaningless or, at least, seriously deficient when it comes to forming a true picture of what is happening in dealing with the housing issue. The data serve no purpose unless all estimates, projections and outputs are set against the numbers of new applicants. If we had these figures, I am confident they would show there will be more people on the housing lists at the end of this year than there were at the beginning of it. To give an example, 100 people are joining the housing list in Dún Laoghaire every month, which amounts to 1,200 in a year, but Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council delivered zero houses last year. The numbers are pitiful everywhere else. We cannot get a real sense of whether we are beginning even to make an impact on the catastrophic housing lists unless we are able to measure the data against the numbers of new applicants this year. I am asking the Minister for a commitment that we will get these figures. If he does not have them now, will he give them to us soon? It should be part of his brief to contact every local authority in the country to find out how many new applicants they have had on a month by month basis.

Will the Minister accept that the targets he has set for 2015 completely misrepresent the plan to deal with the social housing emergency? What I mean by this is that his target for 2015 was 15,925 under all categories, namely, acquisition, construction, capital assistance, regeneration, voids, vacant units, leasing, the rental accommodation scheme, the housing assistance payment scheme and so on. However, there is a large distinction between long-term leasing, the RAS and HAP schemes, all of which are dependent on the private sector and most of which do not actually involve the provision of new accommodation for those on the lists. I do not see how the Minister can deliver on the targets he has set in this regard, given that he has failed spectacularly to do so thus far. However, even if he does deliver, does he accept that none of it involves new accommodation? In fact, it is simply a case of recategorising people who are already in rented accommodation as being housed. There is no new social housing; people will remain in the private housing they have been in all along, but they will now be counted under a different category.

If we are to have any meaningful assessment of the level of delivery of new social housing, we should only be talking about construction, acquisition, capital assistance and regeneration projects. In fact, regeneration projects do not provide new accommodation, nor does the restoration of voids and vacant properties. The only meaningful figures are those which concern construction, acquisition and the capital assistance scheme. The Minister's targets were 946 units for construction and 440 for capital assistance. I understand the number to be delivered under the construction heading is 422 units, although the Minister might be able to give an update on that figure, and 157 under the capital assistance scheme. In other words, less than half the target figure has been delivered. The Minister is saying he will meet the targets and in one case exceed them. How does he propose to achieve this, given that we are less than two months from the end of the year?

Even if the Minister does meet those targets, we are talking about only 1,300 new social housing units against a background where, according to my estimation, some 15,000 new applicants will have come onto the list by year end. In other words, we are effectively going backwards.

The Minister said local authorities may use revenues from the local property tax as they see fit. Will he explain how Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has €10 million allocated for social housing for 2015 from the local property tax but is not allowed to spend that money because it is apparently "awaiting instructions" from the Minister and has been for the past year? That is according to the management of the council.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Will the Deputy source that reference for me?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I certainly will. This question has been raised repeatedly in recent months. For 2016, the council has €8 million allocated, in respect of which it is "awaiting further information" from the Minister about how the moneys can be spent.

With the Chairman's indulgence, I have a final question. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council is claiming the reason it cannot advance a more ambitious programme of new Part VIII social housing deliveries is that it does not have the staff to do so. The council has increased the number of Part VIII projects that have come forward, although they are two years down the line. Is the Minister willing to commit that whatever staff resources are necessary to increase the number of Part VIII projects local authorities can progress to deliver social housing, that those resources will be given?

Chairman

I invite the Minister to respond.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There were a lot of questions but I will go through them as best I can. Deputies Coppinger and Boyd Barrett referred to a figure given last March of 1,400 units for delivery in 2015. That figure relates to council leasing and voluntary housing and it has not changed. We still expect to deliver more than 946 local authority builds and acquisitions and in excess of 440 voluntary housing units. The spend in respect of 2015 was €670 million and €119 million, which gives a total of €794 million. The spend for 2016 will be €811 million and €112 million, which is a total of €923 million. That is the volume of funding we are putting into housing.

The Deputies asked specific questions about targets. Deputy Boyd Barrett was not here when I explained why we sometimes acquire instead of construct. For 2015, our target in regard to local authority construction and acquisition, which we expect to meet, is 946 units, comprising in excess of 200 build units and 750 odd acquisitions. The Deputy asked about local authority turnarounds. That activity does need to be ramped up, as I have acknowledged on previous occasions. We have put more than 300 new staff into councils. If local authorities have any further issues to raise with me, I have no problem dealing with them. As I said, councils, including Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, may use local property tax revenues to address housing issues. The Deputy asked about instructions from me to that authority. Certainly, discussions and instructions are ongoing at this time.

We expect to deliver 440 units under the capital assistance programme, 150 under regeneration and remedial works, and more than 1,000 in the area of restoration of voids. Those are the targets we set.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The point I am making-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Projected output is as follows: the 946 units under the headings of local authority construction and acquisition will be provided; there will be 440 units under the capital assistance programme; 150 under the heading of regeneration and remedial works; while under the heading of voids, the target is 1,000 units, but we expect to provide in excess of 2,500. I am sure all members will welcome such developments because of the quick turnaround involved, plus the fact that the units are new. Projected total output on the capital side is in excess of 4,036 units.

On social housing expenditure, including leasing and the RAS, we expect to deliver well in excess of 3,000 units. Under the housing assistance payment scheme, we expect to deliver well in excess of 7,000 units and that figure to be ramped up early next year. If one adds all of these figures, one will arrive at a total of 15,900 units. I have outlined the targets set and projected outcomes in 2015.

I have been asked about the spend of 62%, the highest amount spent on housing for many years. We have demanded that local authorities deliver on what we have asked them to do and the same applies to assisted housing bodies, AHBs, and everyone else who works in this area. We are constantly on their case. Our targets for 2016 are well in excess of those set for 2015.

Overall, with regard to current delivery mechanisms, including the RAS and leasing, we have come in under target. We aim to make up the bulk of the under-provision through the turnaround of additional voids on the capital side. We have decided to do this because we accept that there are issues with the rental market and that leasing is difficult in parts of the country. Therefore, we have concentrated more on voids on the capital side.

The remaining scheme is the HAP. Every effort is being made to meet the targets set. If we achieve a little less, we are confident that in the early weeks of next year we will be able to supplement the figure and deal with the matter because there are between 150 and 200 new cases a week. I expect that figure to rise as the scheme is rolled out. As many as 18 local authorities are participating in the scheme and as time progresses it will be extended to include more.

I want to answer specific questions posed by other Deputies. On the Shannon project-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I asked one question about applicants.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will deal with all of the questions asked and do not want to lose track of any of them.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am sorry.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Deputy Robert Dowds asked an important question about the Shannon water project. Irish Water's capital plan formed part of its business plan for 2014. It allows for a figure of €5.5 billion to advance projects to address long-term needs in the east, the greater Dublin area and the midlands. I wish to make it crystal clear that any such project would be much broader than the greater Dublin area. I expect the issue to be progressed and that there will be a number of stages. I expect another stage of the project to be announced in the near future, but that is a matter for Irish Water which will use its own model.

We have included provisions in the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014 to support local authorities in dealing with anti-social behaviour, particularly by way of evictions. In the past couple of weeks we have also made changes to the PRTB. Local authorities must use their powers and work closely with estate managers and the Garda.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Sometimes councils are reluctant to go to court because they expect their cases to be thrown out. Will the provisions mentioned help them to deal with the issue?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes. They will give them more strength in such cases.

A couple of Deputies, particularly Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett, asked about housing needs. I agree that it is an issue. Figures from different sources have been mentioned, but they do not tally.

That is why we must ensure that in the future we have one central database, analysis and-----

Chairman

If a Member of the Oireachtas tables a parliamentary question to the Department seeking those figures he or she will be told it cannot be supplied. Can a Member get the figures by tabling a parliamentary question?

Deputy Alan Kelly

I am sure it is possible.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Not always. It depends on the question. We want to know how many applicants there were in 2015, for example.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Such data is not calculated on a monthly or quarterly basis.

Deputy Alan Kelly

To be clear, it was 2013 when the last analysis was carried out which means we are dealing with 2013 figures. There have been FOI requests and all of the figures have been put together. However, such analysis does not factor in a number of issues such as people being on multiple lists in Dublin so there is duplication. Also, people may have left the list since 2013. These are the only figures that we can stand over and a number of other factors must be taken into account. Sometimes a person's housing need does not correlate when compared with the reason he or she is on the list. We will ensure that the housing agency will compile figures on an annual basis from next year. The agency will contact the whole country and compile detailed analysis so that we can finally, once and for all, carry out yearly comparison analysis on the volume of people who really do require social housing assessing every local authority, their totals, certain demographics thus meeting all of requirements that we need. It took a year to put such a system in place.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Does that include new applicants?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes, everyone.

Chairman

Capital worth could be added.

Deputy Alan Kelly

A Deputy asked me what is the Department's housing priority. In 2015, 90% of the overall increase in capital spending across government went to housing. That shows how important it was that we reversed the trend of depending on Part V and all of the rest.

I shall address the issues raised about the Department's turnaround processing times by Deputy Cowen, who has left, Deputy Stanley, other Deputies and perhaps Deputy Boyd Barrett. The Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, and I are determined to make turnaround times for processes to deliver social housing a lot quicker. As a result, we are putting in place a number of changes following our interaction with local authorities which will improve the processes for the assessment and approval of housing projects. I suspect that the measures will be broadly across the political spectrum.

Many members will not be aware of the following. We have agreed with local authorities that they will be allowed to develop projects comprised of up to 15 units and budgets of less than €2 million with a one stage approval process. We will assess how the initiative works and are open to changes, if necessary. The initiative is a positive development because it ensures that the process is almost devolved.

We are also looking at the thresholds under which local authorities can purchase units without prior approval from the Department. In other words, we will set thresholds. In cases where local authorities meet the new thresholds then they would not have to undergo the Department's process which removes a layer. That is a good thing to do.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That will be very helpful.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank the Deputy. Finally, I shall bring in a new framework for the recoupment of costs for capital build projects. Basically, it is a framework that will pay for technical and administrative staff thus avoiding toing and froing between the Department and local authorities. All of the initiatives are welcome.

A Deputy asked about the level of refusals. We have figures on the level of refusals which I found to be quite startling. In south Dublin the level of refusal is 5% yet in Cork city it is approximately 43% and the average rate across the country is between 30% and 40%.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Do those figures include the Dún Laoghaire area?

Deputy Alan Kelly

No, they do not.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Do those figures include choice-based lettings?

Senator Cáit Keane

Dún Laoghaire is a bit depressed, is it not?

Deputy Alan Kelly

We have the figures and I ask members to please bear with me.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

There is hardly any social housing in south Dublin.

Deputy Alan Kelly

For some reason the lowest rate of refusal is in South Dublin County Council at a rate of 5%.

Senator Cáit Keane

That is another one up.

Deputy Alan Kelly

In most local authorities the rate is between 30% and 40%.

South Dublin County Council is the only local authority that offers choice-based lettings, a matter to which Deputy Brian Stanley referred. A system of choice-based lettings is working really well and I encourage everyone across the political spectrum to support the concept. It has been rolled out in Cork but only since 2 November. We do not yet have the figures, but we are expecting them to increase dramatically. The system of choice-based lettings works well and also takes away the time spent in offering a local authority house to someone which is turned down and then offered to someone else. The time involved is shortened.

A number of other issues were raised. I have already broken down the figures. I ask the Minister of State with responsibility for the area to deal with the questions on pyrite.

The capital assistance scheme applies to those with special needs, who are homeless and so forth. In response to a specific question we have announced that more than 3,000 units have been approved for development up to 2017. I have spoken about the housing needs assessment, which was a very good thing to introduce.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett raised an issue related to staff. I assure him it is not an issue we ever have. If there are issues, we will deal with them, but they have choices in relation to local property tax. A direction in relation to the local authority has been and is being given in respect of the fund about which he spoke.

I think that covers all of the questions asked. The Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, may wish to deal with other issues.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

I agree with Deputy Helen McEntee, as I think we all do, that we need to have a strong and robust building control and regulatory system to guard against past mistakes in terms of shoddy building practice, an issue which has been examined and debated by the committee. We have all seen people who have been affected by the matter.

A sum of €10 million was allocated to the pyrite remediation scheme in 2015, of which €7.8 million has been drawn down to date. We expect the full amount, or very near to it, to be drawn down by year end as current remediation projects are completed. I acknowledge the role played by Deputy Helen McEntee in the scheme and her positive engagement and work in this regard. The good news for 2016 in terms of pyrite remediation is that €19 million will be provided in the Revised Estimates which will be published in the next couple of weeks. It is estimated that remediation works cost €50,000 to €60,000 per unit. As the number of projects is being ramped up - it is being ramped up substantially - we expect demand to increase as progress is being made. Adequate provision is being made in the 2016 Estimates, with the figure of €19 million being allocated. The Government and the Department are committed to funding and will continue to fund pyrite remediation projects where approvals are made.

On the overall debate on the provision of housing, a question was asked about the role of NAMA and its contribution. NAMA identified in excess of 6,500 housing units which could be used for social housing. Demand was confirmed by local authorities for more than 2,500 units, of which more than 1,600 have been delivered. There is ongoing engagement between NAMA and local authorities to finalise further deals and contracts for the remaining number of units that have been confirmed as being needed, that is, approximately 1,000 units. NAMA is making a substantial contribution to social housing provision and engagement will continue in the regard.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Two questions I asked were not answered.

Chairman

Which two questions were not answered?

Deputy Brian Stanley

The first was related to private contractors. Is it envisaged that private contractors will acquire local authority houses that are derelict, refurbish them and lease them back to the local authority? The second question was related to the new regulations for abandoned houses. The regulations are impacting on local government budgets and will impact on the budget of the Department as it continues up along the chain in the next year or two. Is it envisaged that the Minister will re-examine what is happening on the ground in respect of the new regulations for abandoned houses? Local authorities are spending thousands of euro in advertising that houses are vacant. The people who want to smash them up see them being advertised in a newspaper, drive around, smash them up and take the copper cylinders out of them at night. It is crazy stuff.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

On foot of my earlier question about money from the local property tax fund which was allocated for social housing, the figure in the case of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council being €10 million for 2015 and €8 million for 2016, will the Minister confirm that there is nothing to stop the council from using the money as it sees fit to provide new social housing? I would like a clear answer to that question.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The very quick answer is that it engages with the Department and that there is no issue.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We are not getting a straight answer from someone; who I do not know.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The Deputy can come to me if he wants.

Chairman

If Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett receives clarity on the issue from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, will the Minister engage an official from his Department to give him the information he requires?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Of course. The answer to Deputy Brian Stanley's first question is "No". It is the first any of us has heard of it, but these rumours do the rounds.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I am quoting someone from Roscommon, but that is good news.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is not something that has come across my desk. The Deputy's second question was related to the powers of the local authority to take over estates.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Abandoned houses.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes; they have powers to do so already.

Deputy Brian Stanley

They do have powers, but the process has now been lengthened. Local authorities have to advertise and readvertise. I can show the Minister examples in local newspapers. It costs thousands of euros to advertise one house. To have to put down the name of the tenant-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I understand.

Deputy Brian Stanley

If Alan Kelly abandons his house, the council has to state it is notifying him that his house is considered to be abandoned. It is a terrible system.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I understand the issues involved. Based on advice we have taken, there are constitutional issues in finding out if there is someone who has a claim on it. We have to obey the Constitution, although I accept the Deputy's point.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Will the Minister re-examine the matter because it is driving officials up the walls?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Of course.

Deputy Brian Stanley

It is also affecting people on the housing waiting list and those living adjacent to the houses in question. It is driving everyone up the walls.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Essentially, it will have to be streamlined. The Deputy's point is well made.

Deputy Brian Stanley

There is a huge black hole to which I am pointing and highlighting sincerely.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I outlined a load of changes we had made in engaging with local authorities to shorten and streamline the process involved by getting rid of red tape, allowing approvals and devolving responsibility for the allocation of funding, etc. As part of the process, we will have a look at this issue also.

Deputy Brian Stanley

It is going to mushroom.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

May we have the documentation on choice-based lettings and whatever documentation it might be useful to the committee to have on refusals? We all know that there are many valid reasons for refusals.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We will provide the committee with documentation on choice-based lettings and refusals, including the reasons they are being refused and the numbers involved.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I have one last question. We are all wondering why we received so little from NAMA. Do we have figures for how much stock NAMA has in each area? I am not just talking about what it identifies for use as social housing. Do we have the figures for how much stock it actually has, broken down on a county by county basis? I know that a lot of it has been sold, but what remains on a county by county basis?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Obviously, we do not have access to NAMA's information, but the vast bulk of what it has available is occupied. Earlier I indicated what NAMA had delivered. We can get a breakdown of where it has delivered it, if the Deputy so requires it, but, as I said, I do not have access to NAMA's information. However, I understand the vast majority of what it has available is now occupied.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his attendance and the level of commitment in terms of his engagement and the information provided. I know that a huge effort is required to reflect the changes the committee requested of the Minister. I welcome his commitment and that of the Minister of State in that regard.

That concludes the review of the Estimates. I thank everyone for his or her presence and propose that we suspend the sitting for 15 minutes. When we return we will debate the motion on the planning and development (urgent social housing supply) policy directive 2015 with the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan.

Sitting suspended at 4.20 p.m. and resumed at 4.45 p.m.