JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2006

Migration and Human Trafficking: Presentations.

Chairman

The joint committee is continuing its consideration of migration. I welcome Mr. Roger Fox, director of FÁS, Mr. Roddy Molloy, director general of FÁS, Mr. Gerry Pyke, assistant director general of FÁS, Mr. Niall Crowley, chief executive of the Equality Authority and Ms Eilis Barry, legal adviser to the Equality Authority.

The committee's consideration of migration dates back a number of months. I spoke briefly to Mr. Crowley on the issue at a Fine Gael party meeting and felt it would be beneficial for the committee to discuss his experience. FÁS has a critical role to play in regard to migrant workers. The Government is deliberating on the position vis-à-vis Bulgaria and Romania.

I was informed by the secretariat that yesterday's edition of Le Figaro carried a partially leaked Commission report on the operations of national measures in regard to workers from the eight accession countries.

Deputy Quinn

I am finding it difficult to hear the Chairman. Waterford is very far away from the centre of power.

Chairman

If the Deputy were to ask Deputy Cullen, he would discover that is not the case.

The Commission made it clear that it views the opening of the labour market in Britain, Sweden and Ireland as positive, particularly in areas, such as construction, hospitality and the care sectors, where labour shortages exist. The Commission also contended, in what I stress was a leaked document, that the continuing restrictive labour measures in place in the other 12 member states had, to some extent, been ineffective and resulted in the growth of a grey economy. While the Commission thinks it has worked for Ireland, what are the witnesses' feelings on its operation? What are their opinions as we move forward, particularly in terms of our deliberations on Bulgaria and Romania? What level, if any, of displacement has occurred and what level is possible in future?

The drill in this committee is very simple. If Mr. Molloy has a presentation, I invite him to make it before I open the discussion to the members.

Deputy Mulcahy

What are our intentions in respect of this matter? I attended previous meetings. Is it intended to have the secretariat prepare a report on the issue? Certain politicians have placed the issue of EU workers in Ireland very much in the public domain. While I do not wish to open a debate on that now, this is the Joint Committee on European Affairs and, given that the issue has been launched into the public domain, we will be obliged to hear all sides of the argument in order to arrive at a position.

Chairman

If the Deputy has any ideas on who has been excluded and suggestions for additional presentations, he should bring them forward. I am glad Deputy Mulcahy made his remarks because it was not so long ago that some members were very hesitant about moving on the issue at all. Some suggested that we should drop it but it is obvious to anyone that this is the significant issue and the committee should deal with it.

Deputy Mulcahy

It is very broad.

Chairman

Let me answer the question as to where we stand. To an extent, we parked the issue before Christmas when we asked each Department to report to us in writing on the way they are treating the matter organisationally. In some cases we were successful but not in others. We have followed up on everything and are actively engaged with every Department to ensure that we receive written responses. Members felt before Christmas that we needed those before we could complete the report.

Deputy Mulcahy

If there is a labour affairs Commissioner, we should invite him or her to come before the committee. Ireland, along with Sweden and the UK, gave completely open access. The Commission must be monitoring the flow of workers.

Chairman

It is.

Deputy Mulcahy

We should hear from the Commission. I would also like to hear from various Ministers. If we follow the suggestions of some and opt for a restricted entry procedure in respect of labour, there will be political ramifications. The matter must be teased out in a careful way. I share the Chairman's view that this is an extraordinarily important issue, from which we should not run away. While we should address it, we must acknowledge that it is a complex and broad issue. I would like to think we will hear every opinion and prepare a report at the conclusion of the process.

Chairman

I am not being snide when I say that I am glad to hear of the Deputy's enthusiasm. The Commission will issue its report on 8 February. In such circumstances, Deputy Mulcahy's suggestion with regard to the Commissioner is fine.

Deputy Quinn

As the committee is in public session, we should listen to our guests in deference to them and the presentations they have prepared. I do not mean to contest any of the points which have been made but how we decide to proceed is a matter primarily for ourselves. We have invited people to attend and they have spent time preparing. We also have an audience. We should pay the witnesses the courtesy of listening to them and take our bearings from there.

Chairman

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same level of privilege does not extend to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice whereby they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Roddy Molloy

I have circulated a short paper setting out the views of FÁS on the issue on the agenda. I will not bore the committee by reading it line for line but I will pick out a few of the salient points before giving members an opportunity to raise questions.

The first couple of paragraphs of the paper provide background in broad terms of our organisation, with which most if not all members will be very familiar. Notwithstanding the current focus on migration issues, most of our energy and effort is employed in a great many other activities. Migration has become a more significant issue for us in recent years due to the numbers of people entering the country.

The economic growth in recent years would not have been sustainable without the inflow of significant numbers of immigrants. We know from ESRI research that from 1998 to 2003 immigrants contributed 2.5% to 3% to GNP growth. Clearly, since the new member states joined the EU, Ireland has experienced a significant inflow of people from them. Approximately 166,000 personal public service numbers have been issued, mostly to people from Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. One should apply a health warning to the use of personal public service numbers as a measure of immigration because not all of those who applied ended up in employment here. These people received the personal public service numbers and returned home. Non-nationals accounted for approximately 8% of the workforce in the middle of 2005, which is the second highest rate in the EU. Only Germany is ahead of us with 9%. Contrary to the public view, substantial numbers of non-national workers are highly skilled and over 55% have obtained third level qualifications. Non-national workers are, by and large, filling jobs in areas — including the construction industry and the hotel and catering and retail services sectors — that are experiencing strong job growth. If we did not have these people, there would be very significant labour shortages in those sectors.

There has been a great deal of talk recently about displacement. While we accept that economic theory suggests that high levels of immigration can lead to the displacement of local workers, the strong growth in employment means there is little evidence of it here. Unemployment has remained very low and, at 4.2%, is still the lowest in the EU. At the same time, average wages continue to rise. An appendix is attached to the document I have circulated which shows that in those sectors in which most non-nationals are employed wage rates are rising at as high a rate as many other sectors and higher than most.

While displacement seems to be causing a great deal of concern, our figures indicate that it is not yet a major issue. As it may be something we will wish to examine as time goes on, we are examining the parameters of a study that we might put in place. Displacement, however, is extremely difficult to measure in any real sense. Many different factors are involved in the equation and it is not simply a case of measuring the inward movement of people. We are considering how best to get a handle on an issue that has emerged as significant in the economy. On the evidence to date, there is very little sign of displacement to any serious extent.

We know from the ESRI medium-term review that in the next decade some 575,000 non-national workers will be required if we are to achieve the economic growth to which we aspire and which we believe is possible.

Deputy Quinn

Some 57,000 per year are required.

Mr. Molloy

That is correct.

From our perspective, it is better that as many as possible of these migrant workers should come from within the European Union because of Community preference and the fact that such workers have the same rights as Irish citizens. This means that we will avoid the difficulties of the past, such as persons with work permits being tied to individual employers. Moreover, we have a better understanding of EU workers' qualifications and how they relate to qualifications attained in this State. There are many such advantages with EU workers.

We benefited significantly from membership of the EU in the past, not least in terms of the advantages it afforded Irish workers who went abroad. Before joining FÁS, I worked under Deputy Quinn when he was Minister in the then Department of Enterprise and Employment. At that time, unemployment was the major issue with which we were wrestling. At one stage, the unemployment rate was 18%. It is useful to remind ourselves that during this period employment services in other EU member states provided us, free of charge, with opportunities to place FÁS staff in their offices to assist Irish workers who migrated to those countries. I refer, in particular, to employment service providers in Germany, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands in that regard. What goes around comes around and these states were very generous to us at that time. Rather than trying to prevent Irish people taking up work in their jurisdictions, they worked with us in assisting them.

There is sometimes confusion in the public debate in terms of the difference between migration from within and without the EU. For several years, we have called for the introduction of a more rigorous system in regard to the immigration of non-EU nationals and the establishment a skills-based process that uses the type of green card system in place in other countries. In this context, we welcome the legislation to facilitate the introduction of a green card and permit system for workers from outside the Union, to which we were party and which is currently going through the Oireachtas.

We are the first to accept that international research shows there is always a risk immigrant workers will be exploited. This may be, for example, because such workers are tied to individual employers or do not fully understand their rights. We have a role in seeking to ensure the system is policed against exploitation. In our involvement in the old work permit system, we felt a duty to notify the appropriate authorities of any instances of exploitation we encountered and we felt confident such complaints were followed up.

We see our main role in this area, however, as one which involves informing immigrants before they come here of what to expect and of the rights they will enjoy. In this regard, we do significant work through the European Employment Services, EURES, network in terms of identifying persons suitable for employment here. Before Christmas, we launched a programme, "Know Before You Go", which comprises a series of leaflets and DVDs in the languages of the new member states that we distribute through the employment services in the relevant countries. The essence of this effort is to alert people to the dangers associated with travelling here to work and to inform them of the preparations they should make before leaving for Ireland. We are putting much energy into making them aware of the risks of exploitation.

Exploitation happens not only when workers come here. We know of instances where they are exploited by unscrupulous so-called employment agencies in their own countries and arrive here completely ill-prepared. In the next several months, we will launch programmes in each member state, giving citizens the necessary background information on what is involved in working in Ireland, the costs of living and so on. In addition, our offices now provide a service where persons with language difficulties can access a translation facility, through our employment service officers, in almost any language. This allows users to engage with us through interpreters if they have difficulty with English. We hope this will go some way towards alleviating difficulties that may arise in this regard.

More generally, we will continue to identify skills needs and emerging shortages within the economy. We will try to address those shortages initially by ensuring that where Irish people are available, we up-skill them to fill those jobs. If Irish workers are not available, we will take a targeted approach in dealing with member states where people are available to come and work here. As I said at the outset, it is clear that we needed the people who came here up to now and we will continue to need migrant workers at a substantial rate into the future.

There is an issue in regard to the recognition of qualifications and we are working with the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland to develop better mechanisms to give people credit for the qualifications they achieved in their own countries.

I have given a summary of the document circulated to members. The appendices and figures it includes may be of use to the committee in its deliberations. I will gladly try to assist members who wish to pursue any issues.

Mr. Niall Crowley

We have also circulated a paper to members. Rather than go through the detail, I will highlight some of the key areas, particularly the recommendations for change. In the current debate, employment rights and their effective enforcement in respect of migrant workers have emerged as a key theme. We welcome the opportunity to highlight the role of the equality legislation in this regard. We will also point to the challenges in terms of enforcing that legislation effectively and developing it further in the context of good practice and policy in this area.

The key elements in the legislation are the Employment Equality Acts 1998 to 2004, which prohibit discrimination in the workplace, and the Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2004, which prohibit discrimination in the provision of goods and services, accommodation and education. The Acts cover nine grounds for discrimination, including those of race and religion, both of which are centrally relevant to our discussions today. I will deal first with the issues and difficulties arising from the deficiencies in the legislation as we seek to maximise its benefits to migrant workers. Deficiencies exist in terms of exemptions, the scope of the legislation, positive duties, remedies and delays in interlocutory relief.

We have set out a number of the specific exemptions in the Employment Equality Acts that relate to migrant workers and some significant exemptions in the Equal Status Acts, which effectively seek to allow discrimination, particularly on behalf of the State, in regard to non-EU nationals. One of these is the statutory exemption which provides that anything required by another statute or EU law is exempted from the Equal Status Act. The Equality Act 2004 introduced a new exemption on the grounds of nationality and purports to allow a broad range of public authorities to treat non-nationals differently on the basis of their nationality, who are outside the State, unlawfully present in it, for the purpose of the Immigration Act 2004, or in accordance with any provision or condition made by or under any enactment and arsing from their entry to a residence in the State. These exemptions create significant gaps in terms of the coverage of the legislation. Another core issue in terms of applying the legislation is that the provisions of the Equal Status Act do not extend to the functions of the State that do not come within the definition of services. Therefore, matters such as immigration control or policing do not come within the scope of the legislation.

Probably the most significant gap relates to the absence of a positive duty. There is no positive obligation on the public or private sector to promote equality. The failure to include a positive duty to promote equality means the legislation has only a very limited capacity to tackle institutional or structural discrimination. In that we are at odds with developments in Northern Ireland in terms of the Northern Ireland Act and developments in England, Scotland and Wales in terms of the UK Race Relations (Amendment) Act.

The fourth area that has been problematic in implementing the legislation is that of remedies. It is important that cases taken have a dissuasive function. Awards need to be proportionate but also, crucially, they need to be dissuasive. In the Equal Status Act, awards are capped at €6,350. There is a significant cap in the Employment Equality Acts in regard to cases of access to employment where the claimant was not an employee — the maximum compensation there is €12,700. That can be problematic.

The final area I would flag in terms of difficulties in implementing the legislation relates to the fact that there is no provision for us or other bodies to apply for any type of interlocutory relief pending the hearing of a claim. Currently, the significant backlog of cases in the Equality Tribunal means parties will experience considerable delays in having their claims heard. In previous annual reports we noted delays of more than a year before an equality officer was appointed. There are significant issues there that are particularly relevant to migrant workers whose situation can be more transient.

We have important equality legislation dealing with the situation and experience of migrant workers. The challenge is to further develop that legislation. It is clear the legislation is hugely relevant to the current context of migrant workers. Complaints have arisen across the whole spectrum of areas covered by the Employment Equality Acts and the Equal Status Act. In 2003, 2004 and 2005 the ground of race was the largest category among the case files of the Equality Authority under the Employment Equality Act 1998. A broad range of issues was raised, including excessive working hours, non-payment for overtime, illegal deductions from pay, lack of holiday pay, harassment and dismissal.

We have also highlighted in the past the difficulties for migrant workers on work permits who can be vulnerable to exploitation. In a number of cases employees were unwilling to take action because they feared the employer would not reapply for a work permit or that they would lose their work permit. One interesting outcome in the casework was an important affirmation from the Labour Court in the case we mentioned, Campbell Catering v Rasaq, of the particular vulnerabilities of migrant workers. The Labour Court highlighted that migrant workers encounter special difficulties in employment arising from a lack of knowledge concerning statutory and contractual employment rights together with difficulties of language and culture. The Labour Court went on, in effect, to require employers to provide reasonable accommodation for migrant workers in respect of language and cultural difficulties in the area of disciplinary procedures. That was a very important development.

That picture in the workplace is also replicated outside of the workplace in the areas covered by the Equal Status Act where the race ground emerged as the third highest area of case files with which we deal. Again a broad range of issues arose, including access to goods and services, access to accommodation and access to education. While the legislation is in place, there is a clear demand for it and for more effective development of that legislation to meet the very significant demands of migrant workers for the protections that legislation affords.

As these issues have arisen in the workplace, we also have been concerned to support and stimulate good practice and to work with the social partners. Enforcement of equality legislation makes a key contribution to maintaining workplace standards and to addressing some of the difficult experiences of migrant workers. Alongside enforcement it is crucial to put forward models of good practice and to get practical supports to enterprises and to companies to be able to apply those models in their particular setting. We have tried to do that through an annual anti-racist workplace week with the social partners and have developed guidance on the steps that could usefully be developed in workplaces to ensure they are anti-racist and effective in managing cultural diversity. These steps include supporting migrant workers to adapt to the Irish workplace, making allowances for the needs of particular cultures, creating a workplace ethos and environment that is positive to diversity and equality, supporting compliance with the equality legislation, reviewing workplace policies and procedures to ensure they take into account those cultural and linguistic difficulties identified by the Labour Court, developing equality action plans and, most important, embedding an equality focus into management. That is a very important area of work that needs stimulation and support. It requires an adequately resourced support infrastructure to ensure the resources and technical expertise are available to companies, and there is strong need to further develop that infrastructure.

The final element in the mix that we highlight is the importance of the policy context. We have quite a positive policy context provided by the national action plan against racism which covers the period from 2005. Its objective is defined as to provide strategic direction to combat racism and to develop a more inclusive intercultural society in Ireland. It contains a number of very important commitments in regard to supporting the Equality Authority and the Equality Tribunal in the performance of their functions, considering best international practice related to a positive duty, developing a major awareness and compliance initiative through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to provide accessible information to migrants and minority ethnic groups, developing a comprehensive policy on the integration of migrant workers, developing a focus on competencies within the public sector to promote equality and to combat discrimination, and putting in place equal status reviews and action plans by key service providers in the public sector.

These commitments have a hugely important contribution to make in creating intercultural and anti-racist workplaces, but clearly it will be a huge challenge to mobilise the resources and to mobilise the different institutions responsible to secure a full and effective implementation of those commitments. In that context we have set out a number of recommendations that emphasise the importance of the effective enforcement of equality legislation, the further development of equality legislation, the further development of an equality focus and capacity within public sector institutions with responsibility for migrant workers, and the importance of implementing current policy commitments.

The effective enforcement of equality legislation would benefit from an investment of resources in advocacy supports for migrant workers through trade unions or non-governmental organisations, from enhancing the resources available to the Equality Tribunal to address the delays and to the Equality Authority in providing the supports to migrant workers, and from an amendment of the legislation to enable the Equality Authority and others to seek interlocutory relief in cases involving migrant workers.

In developing the equality legislation, we would emphasise the importance of introducing positive duties on the public sector and on the private sector in using models developed in Northern Ireland and England in that regard, of expanding the scope of the positive action of the Equal Status Act to cover functions of public sector organisations and to explicitly require employers and service providers to make reasonable accommodation for employees and customers from across the nine grounds, including that of race, subject to this not imposing a disproportionate burden and, finally, of removing the cap on the level of awards that can be made in cases under the equality legislation. It would also be important to review the current exemptions that impact on migrant workers, including the statutory exemption.

The national workplace strategy is an important vehicle in supporting good workplace practice. It is being led by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It has very good commitments in regard to equality and supporting a workplace of the future that can effectively manage cultural diversity. However, it is very important that those commitments are backed up by resources and action.

In terms of public sector capacity in regard to migrant workers, the provision of equality and diversity training for staff in institutions with responsibilities in regard to migrant workers is very important. A key contribution could be made by those institutions conducting equal status reviews on the provision of services and the implementation of the function of these institutions and preparing and implementing equality action plans on foot of these reviews. I mention that in particular. We have followed developments in FÁS, which has led the way, that could usefully be spread across other institutions.

On the implementation of current policy commitments, we emphasise the importance of the national action plan against racism and of implementing the commitments contained in it, particularly the information and awareness initiative in regard to migrant workers and the comprehensive policy on the integration of migrant workers and their families. These are two key commitments in that area.

Concerns have been expressed regarding the impact of migrant workers in regard to displacement and working standards. Enforcement of the rights of migrant workers has been usefully identified as a response to these concerns. It is important that this response includes a vigorous and well resourced enforcement of equality rights for migrant workers, alongside a further development of equality legislation. This should be reinforced with new supports for good practice at enterprise level, together with the urgent implementation of important commitments within the national action plan against racism.

Chairman

I will start by questioning Mr. Molloy. How did the ESRI come up with the high figure of 575,000 new workers required over ten years? When one adds the families of those workers, the figure becomes extremely large. Apart from the obvious growth projections, does Mr. Molloy know how this figure was formulated?

Mr. Molloy

I presume the ESRI matched demographic projections with economic growth projections and saw there was a gap.

Chairman

Was FÁS involved with the ESRI?

Mr. Molloy

No, it was not involved in the study but is using the outcome which fits with our anecdotal understanding of developments in the market. We have no reason to doubt it.

Chairman

Mr. Molloy mentioned in his presentation that the European Union should continue to be the primary source of immigration. This is not a loaded question but what is his opinion of extending the same working rights regime to Romania and Bulgaria?

Mr. Molloy

I have not thought through that issue. My instinct is that if they become full members of the European Union, they should have the same entitlements as other members.

Senator Ormonde

I welcome the contributions of Mr. Molloy and Mr. Crowley. The two Departments must work closely together to determine how we assess immigrants. The FÁS Know Before You Go programme is important in respect of our policy, while the immigration Bill is being formulated.

According to FÁS, the campaign involves distributing brochures. How does that work? If there are employment services in member states, it is important to communicate through a person rather than a DVD. The personal touch is necessary to enable one to establish what skilled or unskilled labour is needed.

Coupled with this, FÁS states it will be in touch with the Higher Education Authority. It is important to have that link and for members of FÁS to be present in these offices to inform people about their rights, which links with Mr. Crowley's contribution about employment rights. This will give us an estimate of the numbers coming here from member states. How tight is that structure in FÁS?

Mr. Molloy

The Know Before You Go programme is the public face of other detailed activity. Each member state has an organisation equivalent to ours which operates as we did when unemployment was high here. At the time we worked with organisations overseas to ensure Irish people settled in in their countries. These organisations take the same responsibility for their people and we work with them. We produce these brochures in their own languages to assist them in their interaction with unemployed people in their countries who want to emigrate to find work. We did not confine the information to our own services. It describes, in simple language, taxation issues and workers' rights in an attempt to inform them. An individual's best protection is to understand his or her rights and to know how to find redress if he or she has a problem. This is more effective than hoping to be picked up by an in-house system. We deliver this information through employment services, all of which were party to the programme before we produced it. We are launching it initially through our embassies in the six member states from which most migrants come. Embassy staff have familiarised themselves with this information and will give the brochures to anyone who seeks it from them.

We are engaged with the qualifications authority. Recognition of qualifications is not a new problem and continues to be a problem between us and our nearest neighbour. Deciding where to locate people on the ladder of qualifications is a complex matter. We are trying to find a way to carry out assessments here which will enable us to say people have qualifications equivalent to those we recognise. It would be foolish to imply that this can be done overnight. It is important to ensure we get it right because if one assigns someone a qualification which he or she does not have, this can have consequences, for example, in respect of health and safety.

We do not ask people their nationality when they sign up with us. When we provide services, we do so on the basis of need for service, the skill shortages in the economy and so on. We stay away from the nationality issue, partly because, notwithstanding our good intentions in acquiring the information, there is a risk that it might later be used for other purposes. The individual being asked that question might also have concerns about why the question is posed. We have decided not to do it, although we could. It is not an issue. We prefer to use other forms of assessment such as what is required in the economy or what the individual needs to drive services.

Senator Quinn

I was very impressed with the matters Mr. Molloy covered. One of my delights as an employer has been to see how well some immigrants have integrated. I am concerned, however, at how little others have integrated. Often they are the ones doing the menial jobs Irish people will no longer do, for example, cleaning, dishwashing and so on. They do not use the English language because it is not necessary for their jobs and they mix with people of their own nationalities. In the evening they return to a ghetto-like home where they do not learn to integrate.

I recognise FÁS is responsible for employment but I do not know where the opportunity or encouragement will be for the people concerned to learn English. It is interesting that FÁS produces documents in their own languages to help them. I am worried that if we do not help them to integrate, we will end up with a different class. While this is not specifically an employment issue, would FÁS consider that part of its duty should be to teach English?

We have equality legislation to prevent discrimination on racial grounds. I think that in the 2004 legislation we introduced nationality as grounds for discrimination. All those coming from elsewhere in Europe are of the same race as us but if we do not introduce some legislation in regard to discrimination on the grounds of nationality, there is a danger that we will leave a loophole open. Is nationality included in employment law as well as equality legislation?

Mr. Molloy

I will take the integration question first. Clearly, the integration of migrants into Irish society is a major challenge. While it is outside the remit of my organisation, the real challenge facing us is to put a serious and positive effort into helping people to integrate into our society. The English language is only a part, albeit an important one, of that. We provide some English language training to help people through our training courses but we have assiduously avoided becoming the English language training organisation because otherwise all our resources could get sucked into that very quickly.

Chairman

To Mr. Molloy's knowledge, is anyone tackling that matter?

Mr. Molloy

Some work is being done through the vocational education committee system and we refer people to them to provide it. The reality, however, is that more needs to be done but that is only part of it.

Deputy Quinn

Are there people teaching Gaeilge?

Mr. Molloy

That is only part of the integration problem. We are conscious that in the not too distant future we could find ourselves competing for these workers, rather than having concerns about them coming here. The demographics of the rest of Europe, including the new member states, are such that there will be a shortage of skilled workers in the not too distant future. Everyone will, therefore, be out there competing for them. Anything we can do to make living in this economy easier and better for those people will enhance our ability to compete for them when we really need them in the future. It is a big issue.

Chairman

Who is responsible for integration?

Mr. Molloy

I am not clear who, if anyone, is responsible. We do certain things that are directly related to our activity. If I was put up against a wall and asked, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform would come to mind. We tend to associate that Department with the issue of immigration.

Deputy Quinn

The Department just interns these people, it will not integrate them.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy can say that but I could not possibly comment. Regardless of who is responsible, what work we can do is a major issue for us, as a society, going forward. Responsibility should be assigned to somebody to help that process of integration. If we get that wrong, we will have more of the nonsense that was thrown up in the survey in The Irish Times last week. The latter has added to the debate around displacement but I found it disturbing. When I see that eight out of ten people in the country are saying that we should reintroduce work permits, the question that came to my mind was how Irish people would have reacted in 1974 if there was serious discussion in Germany about introducing work permits for Irish people who wanted to work there.

Senator Quinn

I am delighted to hear that. Perhaps we have learned something, namely, that it is not anybody's responsibility to look after integration.

Chairman

That is why we thought about doing this in the first instance. We have written to those Departments because we were of the opinion that, unfortunately, that was the case.

Mr. Crowley

Integration is a core issue and a key challenge but it has not benefited from the focus it requires. There must be a cross-departmental focus. We were encouraged to see a commitment in the national action plan against racism to develop a comprehensive policy on the integration of migrant workers and their families. The key now is to secure the implementation of that policy commitment. That must be a core role in dealing with the sort of matters that Mr. Molloy raised.

As regards Senator Ormonde's question on the provision of information, there are still huge challenges in that area. FÁS and the Equality Authority have taken steps in this regard. However, the recent CSO survey on equality highlighted that the highest rate of discrimination, and the lowest levels of information reported were on the ground of race. We must bridge that gap. That is why we emphasised, in the national action plan against racism, a commitment to a major awareness campaign in this area. Information must go beyond the sort of material that FÁS and the Equality Authority produce. There must be a process of effective communication so that information is available as and when people need it. That is the only time people tend to pick it up. Support must be there to help people interpret and make use of the information they receive. That is why we have emphasised the importance of advocacy supports for migrant workers.

As regards the English language, the Labour Court was quite interesting in terms of emphasising both cultural and linguistic diversity and the difficulties that migrant workers have in that regard. In effect, it pointed to a duty — only in a disciplinary context — on the part of employers to take account of the particular difficulties of migrant workers. That is one of the reasons we have emphasised the importance of reasonable accommodation of that linguistic diversity, which is important for employees. It is also important for employers in terms of the benefits they will achieve. It is important for employers to be reasonably required to accommodate linguistic diversity in the workplace. That concerns learning English and having access to materials in other languages. There are some instances of good practice in that area.

The race ground is defined quite broadly in the legislation as covering race, colour, nationality or ethic or national origins. That is quite a useful definition.

Deputy Allen

I thank both speakers for the information they provided. Mr. Crowley will be relieved to hear that I have a number of brief questions, all of which are for Mr. Molloy. I am glad that the message is coming across loud and clear that we need these people to maximise our economic development. In fact, they are doing us a favour by coming here. I hope that message will be more widely disseminated.

Deputy Quinn

The Deputy should speak to his constituency colleague.

Deputy Allen

I cannot speak for my constituency colleagues but I think that message should go out. I note that 166,000 people have PPS numbers. While the information is anecdotal, I put it to Mr. Molloy that vast numbers of workers from within the European Union have come here but have not acquired PPS numbers. They are, therefore, open to and experiencing exploitation. I know EU workers who are being paid €4 an hour to work 16 hours a day, six days a week. They are delighted to get €384, which is big money in their values, but it amounts to exploitation.

The statistics demonstrate exploitation and discrimination in that 56% of those coming here have third level qualifications but are undertaking menial jobs that our people will not do. In that context, there is surely a need to recognise the qualifications of such people. What is currently happening to ensure that the third level qualifications of those people are being recognised for employment purposes? The figures speak for themselves; there is exploitation of highly educated people who are working in menial jobs, often for less than the minimum wage.

Is Mr. Molloy satisfied that the policing of labour law, including that relating to working conditions and pay, is adequate? What interaction is there between FÁS and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on this issue?

Although it does not relate to EU workers, Mr. Molloy welcomed the Immigration Bill. I do not want him to get into the political arena but surely he would agree that work permits tied to employers would only continue exploitation into the future. We have all come across examples of workers who are tied to particular employers and unless they toe the line, they are obliged to leave the country. Surely, FÁS, as a training agency, must have opinions on that issue.

Chairman

If Mr. Molloy has an opinion on the employer-tied permits he can express it, if he so wishes.

Mr. Molloy

As regards PPS numbers, I mentioned a figure of 166,000. However, I also stated in the note that approximately only one third ended up in employment. We know from the Department of Social and Family Affairs that many get those numbers with the intention of trying Ireland out and that many of them go back. I am not aware of substantial numbers working without numbers — essentially in the black economy. Where we come across any such instances, we notify the appropriate authorities, as with any other form of exploitation. However, we do not have that many instances.

Deputy Allen

Does FÁS have the ability and resources to detect it?

Mr. Molloy

We do not go out to detect it, since, frankly, that is not our job. However, we have a great deal of interaction with individuals and employers. In the work permits system that is being replaced an employer requires a signature from us to the effect that he or she cannot source employees locally. As we have offices in virtually every town in the country, we know what is going on. Where we are aware of instances of exploitation, we bring them to the notice of the appropriate authorities. Our experience has been that when we do this, the matter is followed up and action taken. No matter what procedures are in place or what laws are enacted, there will always be exploitation. When such exploitation becomes a major issue, all we can do is move to make it as difficult as possible for it to occur. That is why in my organisation we see our role very largely as informing people. We must inform them before they come here to ensure they do not fall into the trap of exploitation.

Having employees with qualifications working at levels below their capabilities costs both them and us. It is happening, but we are trying with the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, NQAI, to find ways to have their qualifications recognised. The NQAI has a facility on its website to allow people to apply to have their qualifications recognised before they come here. That process is in place, but recognition of qualifications across borders is a very complex issue and can raise complicated questions regarding the thrust of the system in another jurisdiction. It works both ways. We have the same issue regarding Irish people going to other countries and their ability to recognise where our qualifications fit into their systems. A great deal of work is under way on the issue, but it will not be resolved overnight. It is very complex and there are extremely good reasons for treading carefully.

On the legislation to which the Deputy referred, I will not get sucked into a political issue, but it was one of the things for which we had been pushing. It would apply only to non-EU nationals, since EU nationals have absolutely the same rights as Irish people. We have pushed for a green card system in order that if people came here, they would have an absolute entitlement as individuals. Our organisation has expressed concerns about people being tied to a single employer, which leaves open the opportunity for exploitation.

Mr. Crowley

The Equality Authority also has expressed concern about permits being tied to an employer. It is clear from case files with which we have dealt that it is a block to people coming forward and asserting their rights. In the paper we outline several very difficult instances where this has arisen. In one case that we settled the complainant worked as a cleaner. Her employer forced her to work excessive hours, six days a week. He constantly threatened her with deportation if she did not do as requested and confiscated documents, including her passport, returning it only when she had paid him a lump sum. That was a very extreme element, but the holding of documentation has proved very problematic when it comes to realising rights.

Deputy Mulcahy

I thank Mr. Molloy, Mr. Crowley and their colleagues for attending. Both papers are extremely informative. My first question is for Mr. Molloy who said that between 1997 and 2006 nearly 500,000 persons came to Ireland, including returning Irish citizens. Does he have a breakdown of that figure between returnees and Europeans or other non-nationals? Does he believe there is a need for a work permits system for EU workers? Is that required of the State? Mr. Molloy has also said 500,000 people have come to Ireland since 1997. In the next decade some 575,000 will come. What would the impact on the economy be if those workers were not coming, either not being attracted or not being allowed in?

At a previous meeting we reached the conclusion that no Department was taking full responsibility for this area. On a Thursday night along Pearse Street one sees buses that have travelled from eastern Europe disgorging their workers onto the streets of Dublin. In most cases, they have no point of contact and no support; there has been very little preparation and no Department is taking overall responsibility. Our society is totally out of date and unprepared for this and we must say to the Government very clearly that it should get its act together. The people concerned are human beings and, as far as I am concerned, extremely welcome.

I represent a constituency with many working people and no Dublin worker has ever come up to me and complained about jobs being taken by foreign nationals. I have never once heard that complaint. However, they have complained about people who have come here with the sole intention of deriving social welfare benefits, but no one has said to me someone from Poland or Hungary took his or her job. Irish people are mature and fully understand the success of the economy is due to the fact that this is an exporting nation of people who travel the world for business and pleasure. We welcome people here who wish to make a contribution.

Chairman

Regarding co-ordination, one could multiply the numbers mentioned by a factor of three or four over the next ten years. We must think in those terms.

Deputy Mulcahy

We do.

Mr. Molloy

I hope I can recall everything. I was smiling to myself when the Deputy said no one from Dublin had ever complained about people coming from overseas to take their jobs. I hear complaints about people from Cork, Offaly and so on taking their jobs, but that is a different issue. On the social welfare aspect and concerns that the system is being abused, I mentioned 166,000 PPS numbers being taken out. We know that only 500 of those who took out such numbers are in receipt of social welfare payments. Therefore, the proportion is very small. That could well be a temporary flow-in and flow-out and is not an issue.

The Deputy asked about a work permit system for EU members. I do not believe we should reintroduce such a system, as it would be self-defeating for two reasons. As I said, very shortly we will be competing for such persons. We have gained a degree of goodwill by opening up the economy and making it easier for them to come here. Second, a work permit system does not stop people entering the country. All that it does is introduce a bureaucratic system to regulate how they do so. When we were issuing work permits at a rate of approximately 70,000 a year — before the new member states joined — it was nonsense to describe it as the regulation of the inflow, since we were pushing them out the door as fast we could. It does not stop people coming in and it is completely contrary to the notion of membership of the European Union. It would not make sense to reintroduce the system now because even those countries that have not given free access to workers from the new member states will be forced to do so shortly. I believe that the market must be fully opened by 2011. It would not be logical to reintroduce a work permit system that would need to be phased out again in two or three years' time.

I was asked, in light of the figure of 575,000 estimated by the ESRI, about the effect of people not coming here. All we need to do is consider the effect of the inflow of people since 1997, since when there has been a 2.5% or 3% increase in our GNP. The obvious answer is that our growth rates would decline substantially without such people. Equally, we would have huge skill and labour shortages.

Deputy Mulcahy

What about the price of labour?

Mr. Molloy

Like anything else, the price of labour is a balance between supply and demand. I would not like to see a repeat of the problems we experienced in 2000 when we were traipsing around Europe, South Africa and the US with so-called "Jobs Ireland" jobs fairs, trying to persuade people to obtain work permits and come here to address labour shortages. We did that, not because we particularly wanted to but because we were under pressure from major American companies that had invested heavily in the country in the expectation of skilled workers being available and suddenly finding that there were major shortages. We launched the campaign at the time to address serious concerns on the part of major FDI companies that had invested substantial amounts into the economy.

Deputy Quinn

I congratulate the Chairman for arranging this discussion. I particularly commend the two main speakers — supported by their colleagues — on the way they spoke to their papers, which has been very time and intellectually efficient. Perhaps the Chairman could ask the subsequent speakers to do likewise. It is a very quick way to deal with the salient points in the paper.

We have clearly identified an area of work that is very pertinent to the European affairs, not just of this country but also of every other country. Ireland is not the first country to experience this phenomenon and it will not be the last. I refer those present to an interesting article on globalisation by Martin Wolfe in today's Financial Times, which places much of what Mr. Molloy said in context. European history tells us much about integration and migrant absorption. We do not need to look further than this island. Approximately 1 million people live no more than 100 km north of here. They have lived there for 400 years and we have yet to absorb them. We have no examples to teach other people. We should start in our own backyard. After 400 years, those people still see themselves as strangers. That is a matter about which all Nationalists south of the Border should ask questions of themselves.

It is true of all mature economies in Europe that guest workers — a phrase used by Mr. Molloy — have children usually close to where they work. While people work in markets, they tend to live in communities. We run a real risk of exploiting or maximising the economic contribution of the parents of those children as guest workers. However, unless we integrate their children we will suffer the fate that, for example, Denmark suffered.

Denmark is a very tolerant society, which historically has been very liberal and open. It had a massive backlash because it had a social welfare system that was effectively designed for full employment. It was very generous on the basis that someone falling out of the work system, rather than hitting the floor, hit the net and bounced off it and back into work. However, as a colleague of mine, a former Prime Minister of Denmark, advised me, that country failed to look after the needs of the children of the guest workers. These people never properly learned the language of the country in which they had become citizens and were, therefore, incapable of integrating themselves into the labour market. They fell on to a social welfare system — for the remainder of their lives — which, for Danish taxpayers, was designed as a temporary support system until they returned to employment. As a consequence, the electorate in Denmark responded accordingly. Denmark is a very high tax and high supportist society. However, the implicit social contract was that the support system was very generous for the short period that people needed it, after which they returned to the labour market and contributed high taxes to replenish the pot from which they had drawn that support. However, the Danes now had a category of people who were never capable of going back into the labour market because they were never in it in the first instance and yet they had full rights.

Primary school principals on the perimeter of Dublin city and in inner city areas advise that some employers are making fortunes from the work ethic of hungry migrant guest workers whose children, if allowed into the country, are not getting the support systems, as Senator Quinn stated, to teach them the language, etc., to allow them to integrate. We ignore one at the peril of the other. While it is not a matter for today, I make this observation because of the history of the issue.

I say this as a socialist to my colleagues present who might not describe themselves as such. The greatest threats to good employers are not bolshie trade unions but bad employers. The biggest threats to compliant and legally conscientious employers are the bastards who do not pay tax or the employers who exploit workers or who undercut prices. I refer to the Gamas of this world who cut through proper compliance in markets and drive good employers out of business. They do so with the kind of workers who are so desperate for employment that, as Deputy Allen said, they are prepared to work at any price because it is better than the alternative they face at home. Regardless of whether one comes from the centre, left or right in economic terms, facilitating cheap labour is undermining good employers. Any market economy needs good employers. In our conclusions, we should recognise that compliance at all levels is critical.

We now have a permanent level of migration, which is mind-blowing and on a scale that nobody of my age can comprehend. We are likely to have 500,000 net entrants in the next ten years. We have probably absorbed all the potential Irish returnees at this stage. These people will come from 25 or 27 different European Union member states with full rights. Does Mr. Crowley believe that the exclusions in the sectors of the labour market not covered by the equality legislation should now be removed? For example, should we now look for minority recruitment in the Garda, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and other areas? If we were to ask Mr. Crowley to rewrite the equality legislation in order to prepare for a fully integrated multicultural society, what would be the configuration of such legislation?

My next question is for all the witnesses. Should we insist that the children of new entrants to our society become fluent in English rather than, what I regard as a soft-liberal cop-out, to allow them to be multicultural and learn in their own mother tongue? I believe America has made a disastrous mistake in allowing children to be taught in Spanish and other languages. If we are to integrate the children of migrant workers we must give them the basic tool of fluency in the language of the place in which they live. We never asked Cork immigrants to Dublin to change their accent. We just ask them to speak clearly. The point I am making is not as frivolous as it might seem. Allowing people the facility of speaking, teaching, learning and growing in their own language at home represents a confinement for the weak and vulnerable of that society. The bright and the strong will be successful but the others will be left behind.

I have a question for the Chairman. The committee has had discussions with representatives of the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Could we have the same dialogue on social behaviour with representatives of the Departments of Education and Science, Health and Children, and Environment, Heritage and Local Government. This may be the quintessential European question to be asked.

Chairman

The Deputy may be correct. I presume members wish to proceed with the report.

Deputy Quinn

I apologise for speaking at length.

Mr. Molloy

I forgot to answer one of Deputy Mulcahy's questions about the number of Irish people coming back. I can provide figures for 2005 but if the committee wishes, I will try to extrapolate the figures for other years. The 2005 figures are contained in the appendix to the note I circulated to members. They show that out of a total of 70,000, 19,000 were Irish. This is a good indication of the level of those returning.

Deputy Quinn commented on integration, not just of the individual concerned but also of his or her family. The findings of research done in Canada and Australia show that learning to speak the language is the critical factor in immigrants accessing good jobs and integrating properly into society. This is more true of children than the individual immigrant. The delegation agrees with the Deputy on this point. The proper management of integration is critical to avoid the emergence of racism. We should be aware that racism will emerge if integration is not managed. We must take an active role because the findings of the survey show it may not be as far away as we would like to think it is.

Chairman

It is never far away.

Mr. Molloy

We have an issue to consider but there are good models. Canada has been very successful at absorbing large groups from various countries at different times in its history and has managed to integrate them very successfully. There are models if we wish to learn from them.

Mr. Crowley

I refer to the issue raised by Deputy Quinn about a future context. Equality legislation and infrastructure are already under pressure in the current context. There is a significant need to further develop equality legislation and infrastructure to allow for the further changes predicted and to strengthen equality infrastructure to ensure adequate enforcement by means of the tribunal and authority.

There are two key directions for change in the legislation. The Equality Authority has suggested the need to review exemptions and envisages the disappearance of many as a consequence. The introduction of positive duties to promote equality is central to the debate on integration. Positive duties, where they apply, have had a significant impact on institutions, on how they do their business and their capacity to embrace and achieve integration. It is a case of changing the way business is done. While integration is about immigrants, it is also about our institutions and how they carry out their business. Ireland does not have a great track record in dealing with cultural diversity. One need only consider the experience of the Traveller community and how Traveller culture and identity are dealt with to see that we face significant challenges about the manner in which we conceptualise the issue of integration and ensure it is not assimilation rather than inclusion.

The issue of language is important and interesting. The Deputy is correct in saying the ability to speak English fluently is crucial because otherwise the people concerned will be disadvantaged. From another perspective it is also crucial for them to have the use of their mother tongue because it ensures their personal and cultural identity. I do not underestimate its importance in the context of integration that values cultural diversity, as well as achieving inclusion for all concerned.

Deputy Quinn

On that point, there is a danger we will overstep the mark. I refer to examples with which we are all collectively familiar. The majority of Irish Americans spoke English but there was no formal support system in place in the United States to help them maintain their Irish identity, even though the first generation were equipped with the English language. One of the reasons the Irish predominated in local government and local politics in the United States was they were the first generation who could speak English; it took the Italians and others one generation.

I am interested to hear of the experience of FÁS. The Canadians and Australians are deemed to be among the best at facilitating integration and have positive migration policies in place. The United States would be regarded as being close behind. Mr. Crowley may correct me but I have the sense that the emphasis of the agency was to facilitate integration without in any way attempting to duplicate maintenance of a relationship with the mother tongue, the mother country or traditional culture. It proposes one job should be attempted and that the domestic environment should be allowed to do the second job.

Mr. Crowley

The meaning of integration, the demands made of our societal institutions to deal with integration and the demands on those who seek to integrate are core issues. The issue of equality has also to do with combating discrimination and achieving equality in employment and the provision of goods and services. Crucially, it is also concerned with accommodating difference and diversity. Ireland must move from the dominant attitude of tolerating difference towards one of valuing difference. If difference is valued, changes are made to accommodate it, as well as demanding change from the immigrant.

Deputy Quinn

This debate is relevant to every other European country, particularly France. A society cannot be half-integrated; it must be fully integrated. A person living in France may have an Algerian grandfather but their grandchildren will be French. I have relatives in England who have Irish grandparents but they have English or British grandchildren. This is not ambiguous. If people come here to live and participate in our society, their future children will be Irish. They may have Moroccan, Chinese or Tunisian grandparents but we cannot give them a half way bet; otherwise there will be no social contract with them. I have strong views on this matter which forms part of the crisis being experienced in Europe.

Mr. Crowley

It would be good for us to explore the French model of integration which does not allow for a focus on diversity, which has been a source of problems. The Deputy's example of the Irish American community is interesting. This is a community which has retained a sense of Irishness, even though its members are also fully fledged Americans. The resulting expressions of Irish culture in America are very interesting and different from expressions of Irish culture emanating from Ireland. That community has retained its Irish identity in a country where there is integration. This is very healthy, both for society and the individual.

Chairman

As someone who worked illegally for many years in the United States, where I spent 11 years, I disagree with Mr. Crowley. In my experience in the case of those who leave their homeland to go to a particular country there is a stronger retention of their cultural identity. We must decide on priorities. Mr. Molloy and others have stated the ability to speak English will be given priority and I agree with them. We should not worry too much about preserving cultural identities because they will survive and in many cases become stronger.

Deputy Kirk

I wish to direct my questions to Mr. Molloy. FÁS has parallel agencies in Latvia and Lithuania, the countries of origin of many immigrant workers. How compatible are the training programmes followed in those countries? Given that FÁS, as an agency, must also concern itself with workers from those countries, does it promote harmonisation with the agencies to which I refer? Has FÁS established working relationships with similar agencies in the member states from which migrant workers come?

Many of those who come to Ireland from Latvia, Lithuania and other places within the current Union boundaries already have academic or third level qualifications but, as other members have pointed out, many of them do menial jobs. Do the agencies in their home countries look out for people with high-demand subjects? Do they place any emphasis on ensuring that movements of workers take place on a planned basis? Do such countries have any overall economic strategy that takes account of the fact that people may need to work in countries such as Ireland for a period before they can be repatriated at a later stage?

My final question concerns workers from countries such as the Ukraine who enter the country under the work permit system. As a matter of policy, does FÁS feel that it has an obligation to provide such workers with special training programmes to allow them to enhance their employment prospects and to consolidate their employment position in Ireland?

Deputy Kelleher

I am not a member but I am interested in the general debate on racism to which the Chairman alluded. In my experience, the undertones of racism that were inherent or underneath the surface have become stronger in Ireland in recent years. The problem has probably been camouflaged by our current economic vibrancy but I think we need to be conscious of the issue. With people coming into the country, we need to prepare and educate Irish citizens to explain in detail the contribution that immigrant communities are making here. However, nobody seems to be willing to do that. In political terms, it is probably not easy to do that when issues such as job displacement and undermining of wages are bubbling under the surface.

There does not seem to be a coherent coming together of the various agencies to highlight, for example, the contribution that immigrant communities make to both our economy and our projections for future pension payments. All of that needs to be explained while we have a strong, vibrant and healthy economy and before we reach the panic button situation that might arise if job displacement and unemployment were to creep into the economy. I am concerned that no agency or political grouping seems willing to tackle that matter. Many Deputies probably received phone calls about the issue of the early childhood payments. That is happening even when the economy is strong and healthy.

On the issue of the English language, as one who has travelled abroad I agree with Deputy Quinn that we would do migrant workers a major disservice if we did not integrate them into our community. We can do so while ensuring that their cultural diversity is protected and even advanced. Although such workers may be successful in the short term because the economy is such that people with bad English are still taken into employment, there will come a day when an economic slowdown occurs. When unemployment starts to creep up, the people who will be most disfranchised will be those who use poor English on work application forms. Most communities that have tried to integrate into new countries while protecting their cultural diversity have experienced major problems. A case in point is France, where poorly educated migrants have been unable to enter employment because of language barriers and confusion about issues of identity and race. We need to be conscious of the issue.

My reason for coming here is that I feel strongly that, if all our organisations do not prepare properly, we could have a serious issue on our hands in a very short space of time.

Chairman

I agree with Deputy Kelleher. In the United States, Irish people always had an edge over people of other nationalities. Even if they were illegal immigrants, as English speakers they had an edge over those who had green cards. English is very important.

Deputy Sexton

My questions are probably not as profound as those that have already been posed. I also thank the members of the delegation for their contributions. We have heard evidence from many organisations and Departments but it is terrific to get a broad view of the agencies' approach to the situation vis-à-vis migrants.

My first question for Mr. Crowley concerns the examples of complaints under the Equal Status Act 2000 that are given on page 8 of the document. Over what period have such complaints been made? How many complaints were received under each of those categories? What I am trying to discover is whether there are recent figures for complaints and the number of complaints in each category that the authority receives. In other words, do the figures reflect what happened at the beginning? If the figures are old, do we perhaps need to multiply them by a particular factor?

Do difficulties relating to having qualifications recognised relate to migrants from within or outside the EU area? That question is probably for Mr. Molloy.

Reference was made to the figure of 166,000 non-nationals who have PPS numbers but the figures given suggest that only 500 of those are currently on the live register. When we took evidence from officials from the Department of Social and Family Affairs, they were unable to indicate how many of those non-nationals are no longer in the jurisdiction. Does FÁS have any such figure? I presume it does not.

What recommendations do the delegates have on the question of the co-ordinated approach that is needed if we are to get where we want to go from here? Do we need a new statutory agency or Department to deal with migration, which is an issue of growing concern to people. The positive views of the panel are to be welcomed, given the difficulties that have been caused by some of the media reporting. As leaders, we have a duty to ensure that people's growing resentment does not worsen.

On the need for integration and assimilation, I share the view that if we can get discrimination out of the way by ensuring that people have access to jobs everything else will fall into place thereafter. Ireland is a small island that can absorb these people but leadership and a positive approach are required. I will value the views of the delegates on the way we should proceed.

Chairman

Which of our guests wants to respond? I appreciate that a large number of questions have been posed.

Mr. Molloy

I will answer the questions and comments in so far as I can.

Deputy Kelleher highlighted the need to make people aware of the contribution that migrant workers have made to the economy. As an organisation, we have been unambiguous about that but, unfortunately, our statements have not attracted the same attention that the negative stuff has received. In all our reports in recent years we have certainly made positive comments on the issue. In my statement today, while being open and honest about the issue, I tried to highlight as much as possible the positive contribution that migrant workers have made in the past and will continue to make. To put that another way, if we do not continue to have that inflow of workers, there will be a negative effect on our economy. I think a number of other State agencies have also been nothing but positive about the contribution that immigrant workers have made to the economy.

I can advise Deputy Kirk that we have close working relationships with our counterpart agencies in all member states. Such relationships were a great help to us in the early days of our membership of the European Union, when we were able to work with the agencies of the six founding member states and those of the other member states who made up the then nine member states of the EEC. We received visits from officials of such agencies of accession states even before their accession to EU membership and we provided them with assistance to ensure that their structures were aligned with those of the Union.

A formal system exists within the European Union to allow all the agencies to meet so that issues can be discussed. When I attended the most recent meeting that the UK Presidency held in Birmingham just before Christmas, the big issue was the effect of so many immigrant workers from Lithuania, Latvia and Poland entering countries such as Ireland and the consequences of that for the accession states. If we cast our minds back to the 1980s, we can recall that the phrase "the brain drain" was used to describe the big concern that Ireland faced. The accession states are now expressing a similar concern about their economies. I suppose they can take some comfort from the fact that our brain drain, which was seen at the time as a negative, turned out to be a huge positive when all those people, who had reached influential positions in other countries, were able to return home with skills that they would not otherwise have acquired. This is an issue we discuss with them all the time.

On the training side, each country provides the training needed — or what it anticipates will be needed — at the particular time. We certainly exchange information with each other. For many years, we have had a relationship with the German apprenticeship system. Our German counterparts come to see what we are doing. There is a very close relationship between the Cork training centre and the Cologne chamber of commerce, which runs the apprenticeship system there, with which Deputy Allen might be familiar. Those types of relationships are ongoing and there are lines of communication if particular problems arise in terms of people leaving one country or arriving here. We can interact with each other and try to address those problems.

We are not, however, in the business of stopping people moving or of regulating movement. Individuals have the right to make decisions. All FÁS, as an agency, can do is ensure they are informed. Our sister agencies in the other countries do something similar. However, we are not in the business of interfering with the rights of individuals, be they employees or employers. We try to assist these people because they have rights.

This brings us back to the debate between Mr. Crowley and Deputy Quinn. In the context of this country, research indicates that use of the English language is the way people integrate. I would not state that I would prevent people keeping an attachment to their own culture. However, if we are investing resources they should be aimed at helping people integrate. When one asks a Canadian with a Hungarian sounding name his nationality, he will say he is Canadian but that his father or grandfather was Hungarian. He has the choice as to whether to retain contact with that culture.

Deputy Quinn

Imagine how far Dev would have got if he had been obliged to state that he was Cuban.

Mr. Molloy

I will not go there. That is the issue. For me, the real measure of integration will be if the child born here of Polish parents says he is Irish if asked his nationality when he is 15 years of age. I do not know how we will get there. This comes back to what Deputy Kelleher said about the challenge we face. As stated earlier, last week's survey shows that racism is not as far away as we might hope or think. It is a challenge not only for an agency such as ours but for the entire political system to ensure we curb that tendency which is emerging and lead people towards what we know to be the contribution of these individuals make.

People who come here under the work permit system come from outside the European Union. To obtain a work permit, one must be able to demonstrate that there are no Irish or European Union citizens available to do that work before a work permit is issued. We do not want people to come here and be exploited or whatever. Once people are working in this economy under the work permit system, they receive the same treatment from us as Irish people or other EU citizens in terms of the facilities we provide as a training organisation.

On the figure of 166,000, I already stated that only 500 of them are in receipt of payments. One third of these people are working. I cannot say definitively where they went but I can state, with a certain amount of certainty, that they are not still in Ireland. We know from the traffic flows between Poland and Ireland, for example, that as many people go back as come here. We have covered the integration issue ad nauseam.

Mr. Crowley

The incidences are drawn largely from the last three annual reports. It is an area that is growing. The CSO survey on equality suggests it is an area which is hugely under-reported. The Equal Status Act is very new and people are only coming to grips with their rights under it. That is particularly so in respect of the race ground, so it is probably bigger than we know. Co-ordination is crucial but a key first step might be in terms of embedding a focus on migrant workers and cultural diversity across all the services and functions in each Department. That is again why we emphasise the positive duty to promote equality as a key starting point. When one gets that embedding, one can then build better co-ordination. However, if one does not get that first initial drive, one does not achieve it.

On people learning the English language and in respect of accommodating diversity, it is my opinion that we should embrace both options. Clearly, one must have English to progress but the affirmation of one's identity is also very important, whether that happens informally or formally. Integration must leave space for that. Non-discrimination is a starting point but many cultural minorities would report issues of institutional discrimination. Part of that has been a failure to take account of cultural difference and generating barriers to accessing goods and services.

Chairman

I have a question for Mr. Molloy on an issue in respect of which I have potential concerns regarding FÁS. As he will be aware, 400 jobs were recently lost in my home town of Dungarvan when Waterford Crystal announced that it was closing its factory. On a number of occasions, workers who were laid off from that plant have come to me and raised a concern in regard to the type of training they are getting from FÁS and on the employment opportunities available in the area. They have said the training they are receiving, whether it involves a welding course or something as simple as driving a digger, is not relevant to what is available in the jobs market. Essentially, they are thrown on to computer courses. It is an issue which has been raised repeatedly. I hope FÁS will look at the relevancy of the training with regard to large job losses and closures such as that at Waterford Crystal in Dungarvan.

Mr. Molloy

If there are individual cases, I will gladly examine them. The Deputy can contact me separately about them. The organisation has a policy, which is working very well, where if there are major redundancies in an area, we work very closely with the management of the company before they are announced. That is when it confides in us. In the case of Waterford Crystal, it did that for a significant number of months before it made the announcement, so we, together with Enterprise Ireland and the Department of Social Welfare, had processes in place to deal with the concerns of the workers as best we could.

By and large, the training programmes on which people go are those in respect of which they indicated an interest in pursuing. When they go on a course, people may sometimes discover that it is not what they wanted to do. If somebody wants to do a course in something esoteric for which we know there is no job, we ask them if they would not be better doing a course in welding because a welding factory is opening down the road. We try steer them in that sense. We certainly do not force anybody on to particular training courses.

Chairman

I understand that. I would not raise the issue if it was a mundane as that. Will Mr. Molloy check the position in regard to the workforce at Waterford Crystal in terms of the success rate in regard to training and the re-employment of those people? I am beginning to think there is a potential problem there.

Mr. Molloy

It would be useful if the Chairman and I could talk separately about it and if I could get some precise details. It is very difficult to do so at a general level. The feedback we are getting from most people in this regard has been positive. If a problem is emerging, I need to get some details——

Chairman

I will do that. I appreciate Mr. Molloy's response.

Mr. Molloy

——and even explore it with the people themselves because if they have concerns, they are serious concerns for us as well.

Chairman

It has arisen too many times.

Mr. Molloy

Part of the problem we come across — I am not saying it is the problem in this case — is that people have an unrealistic expectation that they will obtain employment precisely in the area where they have lost a job. There is an issue, certainly in rural areas, of people being reluctant to travel to employment. I recall being severely criticised when people lost jobs in Ballinasloe. There were plenty of jobs in Galway city and Athlone but the mayor of Galway or Ballinasloe rounded on me for suggesting that Ballinasloe people should move to Athlone to get work. In the context of what we were discussing, people have come from Poland to obtain work.

Deputy Sexton

I take the opportunity to congratulate Mr. Molloy because there have been a number of job losses in recent years in Longford. Working as a team with the companies in which the job losses have occurred and with the workforces, we have always managed to come through it. FÁS has been very active on the ground. I would say that in Mr. Molloy's defence.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses, and Mr. Crowley in particular, for their attendance. They obviously put a great deal of preparation into their presentations, which we really appreciate. This was a worthwhile and extremely valuable hearing.

I ask the members to agree in public session that we should continue with this report. The feeling is that we cannot afford not to. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.50 p.m. and adjourned at 4 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 February 2006.