JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2006

Polish Parliamentary Delegation: Presentation.

Chairman

The first item on our agenda is issues of current interest to the EU involving an exchange of views with a delegation from the Parliament of Poland. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the President of the Parliament of Poland, Mr. Marek Jurek, and his delegation. I also welcome His Excellency, Mr. Witold Sobków, Polish ambassador to Ireland.

We have only a limited amount of time available to engage in a discussion and take questions and answers. If Mr. Jurek would like to make a short presentation on behalf of the delegation, he would be welcome to do so. I will then take questions from members of the committee. I come from a small town that has a massive Polish population and I would like to know the problems our guests have identified as affecting members of the Polish community in Ireland.

The committee has been dealing with the issue of new migrants from the ten accession countries for the past 18 months. We compiled a report on the matter and many members travelled to the new accession countries. In light of the enormous number of Polish nationals living in Ireland, we need to discover the outstanding issues for members of the Polish community here. We would welcome it if our guests could be as frank and explicit as possible.

Mr. Marek Jurek

I thank the Chairman and suggest that we use the services of the translator. Before I begin our presentation, I wish to state that we have spent a magnificent three days in Ireland. To date, it has been an interesting and fruitful visit. In our discussions with Irish colleagues, we have focused on two major platforms: first, issues relating to our accession to the EU and membership; and, second, those relating to the Polish community in Ireland, whose presence here came about as a result of our recent accession.

As representatives of the Polish national authorities, we express our appreciation to Ireland for the instantaneous opening up of its labour market and immediate application of the freedom of movement principle after the accession of the ten new states to the EU. What is extremely important is the fact that we received a great deal of proof and confirmation from our fellow nationals who are resident in Ireland that they have enjoyed good legal conditions, which were prepared and put in place for them by the Irish authorities. They also state that they have enjoyed great hospitality and generosity from common Irish people.

I thank the Chairman for his inquiry about issues relating to members of the Polish community in Ireland. During meetings with our fellow nationals the other evening, we discussed and focused more on issues that could be resolved by the Polish authorities in co-operation with their Irish counterparts in order to make their stay here more fruitful and effective. I stress that they are extremely pleased about the operations of the Irish labour inspectorate and they indicated that they are very happy here. There are no issues requiring urgent attention from the Irish authorities.

I will return to Poland with some ideas for actions to be taken and measures to be put in place by the authorities in our country in respect of the Polish community in Ireland. I will also return with new ideas for projects to be pursued jointly with the Irish authorities.

Before we proceed with the discussion and take questions from members, I will introduce the members of our delegation. With me are members of both Polish Houses of Parliament, representing both the opposition and ruling parties. Deputy Danuta Hojarska represents the Self-Reliance Party which, in Polish, is called Samoobrona. Deputy Izabela Mrzyglocka represents the Civic Platform, a leading opposition party in Poland. Deputy Lukasz Zbonikowski represents the Law and Justice Party and is also president of the Polish-Irish parliamentary group in the Polish Parliament. Deputy Franciszek Jerzy Stefaniuk represents the Polish People's Party and is an ex-deputy speaker of the Parliament's Lower House. Senator Tadeusz Lewandowski represents the ruling Law and Justice Party. Senator Michal Wojtczac represents the Civic Platform. Ms Mrzyglocka and Mr. Wojtczac are both deputy chairpersons for the Polish-Irish parliamentary team. Also present are Mr. Witold Sobków, Polish ambassador to Ireland, and Mr. Rafal Karpinski, director of the Polish International Affairs Bureau.

Chairman

While a number of members have signalled that they wish to ask questions I remind them that the delegation must leave at 3 p.m.

Our estimates suggest there are currently between 150,000 and 200,000 Polish nationals in Ireland. Does that correlate with Polish statistics in this regard?

Mr. Jurek

It is a very dynamic situation. It is difficult to capture the exact number given the movement of people to and from Ireland.

Chairman

The committee heard a presentation last week from the director of the Immigrant Council of Ireland. Mr. Jurek stated that no burning issues have been identified to the delegation during its visit to Ireland. The director stated during our discussions, in regard to foreign nationals coming to Ireland, that there remains a lack of basic information available to Polish people in regard to what to expect when they arrive in Ireland, namely, their legal rights, their expectations in regard to assistance if they find themselves in difficulties, housing issues and their rights in the labour market. The Immigrant Council of Ireland deals with migrant workers on the ground. Has this matter been raised with the delegation? Is it an issue about which they have concerns?

Mr. Jurek

We were informed at a meeting that a group of individuals who arrived in Ireland had failed to find employment but the people concerned were not present at that meeting. We have also learned Ireland will soon launch an information campaign in Poland entitled, Know Before You Go. We welcome this campaign which will provide Polish people with information prior to leaving Poland for Ireland. We will undertake to encourage the Polish Ministry for Labour to establish closer links and relations with its Irish counterpart to ensure such issues are successfully resolved thereby ensuring those taking the decision to leave Poland will be better informed of their rights and entitlements on arrival in Ireland.

Deputy Kirk

I join with the Chairman in welcoming the delegation to the meeting. I will be brief as I understand the difficulty in terms of translating long and detailed questions.

Perhaps Mr. Jurek can give the committee an analysis of what membership of the Community means to Poland and how it is perceived among the Polish population? Looking to the future, in terms of the Ukraine and the orange revolution and Poland's close relationship with the Ukraine and Belarus, is it Poland's wish that both countries join the Community?

Mr. Jurek

Shall we respond to Deputy Kirk's question now or wait and take a number of questions together?

Chairman

Mr. Jurek may respond to Deputy Kirk's questions.

Mr. Jurek

As regards our membership of the European Union, I would like first to say that following accession our hopes and expectations about the economy have been fully confirmed. Our major trading partner within the EU is Germany which accounts for some 40% of our foreign trade balance. This has greatly improved owing to growth in exports of foodstuffs in particular. Members may be aware that Poland has an extensive agricultural sector and this makes our farmers very happy. We have also benefited greatly from direct subsidies to farmers. The subsidies were negotiated prior to Poland's accession to the EU and despite the fact that they are smaller and lower than in other European Union member states, our farmers are happy with the special process of distribution applied to them. The subsidies have resulted in more stability for farmers and their families.

A few years ago we witnessed a kind of divide in Europe and within the European Union on the issue of its relationship and co-operation with the United States. This was of concern to all the countries involved. However, we viewed the approach of the European Union foreign policy on eastern Europe as positive. We appreciated the involvement of the European Commission and its contribution to the process of change in Ukraine and Belarus, which Poland and Lithuania supported.

Ukraine and Belarus are very different, although they are in the same region. In 2004 Ukrainians made a democratic choice about their future and opted for a pro-western European democracy. Were it not for certain splits in the democratic parties in the Ukraine, their relations with western Europe would be closer. To all those who were morally or actively supporting the orange revolution in Ukraine, the electoral victory of Mr. Yanukovych's party came as a great surprise and raised concerns about the abandonment of accession to NATO. The removal of Mr. Tarasyuk from office as Minister for Foreign Affairs, as he was in charge of co-ordinating relations between the Ukraine and the EU and his replacement by Mr. Yanukovych was the cause of much scepticism.

Sceptical voices were raised about the relations between the Ukraine and the European Union, as they could have been much closer than they are today.

However, it is not all problems, there are positive developments that should be noted. The number of members of the democratic parties is much greater than Mr. Yanukovych's party membership, and Mr. Yanukovych and his cabinet have confirmed their willingness to join the European integration process.

We have launched a democratic dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities and our prime ministers held a meeting together and we have made a declaration in a statement that we will keep supporting democratic developments in Ukraine as long as they demonstrate a willingness for such developments.

I would like to make some general remarks on the integration process of the Ukraine and the European Union. In Poland we believe that the inclusion of the Ukraine in the European integration process and the will of the Ukrainian people to join NATO would be a further guarantee of stability to Europe after the end of the Cold War.

On the other hand we have doubts and concerns about the relative absorption capacity of the European Union, which is a very real issue. It may be a long process before the Ukraine is successful in its accession to the EU. We also believe that as a European Union state, we have not done enough or as much as we could have done to show the Ukrainians the prospects of integration with the European Union, even in the more distant future.

The accession of the Ukraine to the European Union is a question of time. However, we believe the Ukraine should have a new status either through a formal association with the EU or by being given the status of neighbour of the Europe Union which would manifest itself in the lowering of trade barriers. This would create a better sense of belonging to western Europe.

Chairman

May I call on Deputies to put their questions?

Mr. Jurek

I need to say a word on Belarus. Belarus is quite a different story. In Belarus we are dealing with the last dictatorship in Europe. We run our own assistance programme for Belarus, as part of which we have allocated €5 million to support Belarussian NGOs.

Deputy Allen

I welcome the delegation. I see from the programme that delegates have mixed business with pleasure, which is admirable.

To provide the delegation with an idea of how the joint committee is structured, I note that the three members sitting at my table are from the opposition parties, while the members sitting at the next one are from the Government parties in the Upper and Lower Houses. The delegates can see that we are all civilised most of the time. Before I move to deal with the more serious questions, I note that the Polish people living in my city of Cork are a credit to their country; they have attempted to integrate in every way during their time here.

Some of the members visited Lithuania and Latvia earlier this summer where we noted concerns about the loss of bright, well educated individuals. I am sure Poland is no exception and has similar concerns about the absence of its most important resources resulting in skills shortages. I am concerned that many of the Polish people coming to Ireland are highly educated graduates who take up employment here which does not match their high qualifications, which is sad. I am glad to hear the delegation is satisfied with the inspectorate and has heard no complaints about the widespread exploitation of workers.

Is Poland experiencing serious skills shortages on foot of the haemorrhage of individuals from the country? If so, how is it compensating for the haemorrhage of bright, talented young people? What is the delegation's attitude to the opening of borders to foreign labour from Bulgaria and Romania which will soon be member states? Will Poland open its borders to such labour? What is its attitude generally to open borders for work purposes?

Mr. Jurek

We have not yet recorded the level of skills and educated persons shortages in Poland. There are serious prospects of such shortages in the future, especially in the health care sector where differences in pay levels between Poland and other parts of Europe are significant. Doctors and nursing staff may be drained from Poland after some time. However, we have adopted protective measures. In the next few years we will allocate €3.5 billion to the Polish health care sector, part of which will be used to underwrite pay rises for doctors, nurses and other health care personnel to keep them at home.

Our position on the upcoming small-scale enlargement of the European Union through the accession of Bulgaria and Romania is that we should, wherever and whenever possible, apply the principle of freedom of movement of labour and open the Polish labour market. We have been strong advocates of Bulgarian and Romanian accession and, on the opening of labour markets, must now be consistent in our policy. While we have yet to take a formal decision on the matter, the position I have just presented represents the majority opinion which prevails in our country on the issue.

Deputy Costello

I welcome the delegation to Ireland. During the years we have watched Poland's long struggle for democracy and admired its people. Its citizens are making an enormous contribution to the Irish economy. More than 50% of all EU nationals who come to Ireland are from Poland and it is very important for us to know what their experience here has been. We would be concerned were any exploitation to be discovered by the labour inspectorate on wages and conditions of employment. Can the delegation elaborate on its contacts with the Polish community in Ireland in that context?

According to the delegation, 40% of Poland's trade is with Germany. It must be very difficult to have that level of trade in the absence of a right of labour to move between the two countries. Does the delegation have any indication of when Germany will open its borders to Polish workers? Britain, Finland and Spain have, with Ireland, already opened their borders. Does the delegation have figures for the numbers of Polish citizens travelling to these countries?

Mr. Jurek

Sweden decided to open up its labour market instantaneously after the accession together with Great Britain. Not many Poles go to work in Sweden. Finland, Spain and Greece are opening up their labour markets now. We have no specific figures relating to Polish labour leaving for those countries. Regarding Polish nationals in Ireland and their presence in the labour market, we have had some signals that there have been a few cases of Poles working for cash-in-hand in the grey zone of the economy but that is the exception. We have been assured there is a State labour inspectorate in Ireland that is very effective at combating such phenomena and preventing exploitation in terms of pay and working conditions and preventing and combating cases of unfair competition. We believe those measures and actions taken by the Irish authorities are fair and fully justified and therefore all parties benefit.

In regard to the opening up of the labour markets, the most difficult and most tight markets to us are our closest neighbours, such as Germany or Austria. That is justified by a number of reasons that are more understandable and justifiable in the case of Austria which is a smaller country bordered by many European Union States. However, it is not that easy to comprehend when it comes to Germany. Germany is a very strong economy and the largest EU member state. We believe there is a lack of consistency when it comes to applying the European fundamental principles, in particular the principle of solidarity. We will try and will spare no effort to persuade our foreign partners to consistently apply such fundamental European Union principles. We are of the opinion that such principles should be applied by the strongest member states in the first place.

I would also like to stress once again that the decision taken by Ireland on opening up its labour market to Polish citizens was very beneficial. Looked at from another angle, it helped to dispel certain myths and stereotypes about employment of emigrants. The Irish authorities and the Irish labour market showed it is possible to fill in certain niches in the labour market with foreign labour and make that employment complementary to the employment of Irish nationals.

Chairman

I will now bring in other members who have indicated.

Senator Lydon

I will be brief because there is no sense in holding up everything. I believe the Poles and the Irish get on very well together because we have been running Chicago for years. When the Polish people came here they were welcomed, essentially because they are good, honest, decent workers. They now have their own church, their own radio station, their own newspaper. If things keep going the way they are, Irish people will shortly be emigrating to Poland. Much nonsense is talked about labour markets and about people coming here from different countries. A very interesting poll was done in Bulgaria last month which showed that only 500 Bulgarians wanted to come to Ireland. Mostly they want to go to the southern Mediterranean countries. Sometimes when a country opens its borders there is concern that there will be a huge influx of people. That is not necessarily so. It is mostly people who get on well with us who come to our country. That is how it works. I have no fears about the future. I will not delay the meeting because the Polish and Irish people get on well together. Polish people are welcome here. The delegation is welcome and I hope they enjoy their stay.

Senator Quinn

My little bit of Polish is dzenkuye. I think it means “thank you”. I have one question which has to do with Poland’s financial regulator. The Polish economy has been very successful in recent years. It is, I am told, due to Mr. Balcerowicz, the Governor of the Polish central bank. I understand that recently the Polish Government appointed a financial regulator to weaken the power of the central bank. There are some fears internationally that this may mean a weaker economy in the future. Will Mr. Balcerowicz be reappointed next year? Will the central bank maintain its strong hold on the economy or is it government policy to weaken the central bank in order to control the economy and introduce more populist measures.

Mr. Jurek

I thank Senator Lydon for his very kind words about the presence of Poles in Ireland. It is true that real life experience will dispel unnecessary fears. It is important to us that the Irish have set an example for others who will see that they can open their labour markets to nationals of other countries without fear. The Irish will not be coming to Poland to seek jobs but we would love to see more Irish direct investors in Poland. We have already accumulated foreign direct investment from Ireland but would like to see more. We will be striving to expand and improve the Polish infrastructure because that is one of the factors which often attracts foreign direct investment.

With regard to Senator Quinn's question, we are speaking about two separate issues. It is true that we have just changed the law on financial regulation and supervision of the financial sector. We have decided to merge the insurance and banking regulators into a single regulatory institution with a view to protecting the public interest and ensuring fair competition. There is nothing else behind it. The president of the National Bank of Poland is nominated for a second term. In this regard, Professor Balcerowicz himself, the president of the NBP, is one of the most appreciated and at the same time one of the most criticised people in Poland. He should, no doubt, take credit for the strong Polish currency and improving the purchasing power of the Polish zloty which is getting closer in purchasing power to the currencies of western Europe. However, he has been criticised for his failure to develop the economy in a way which would translate into a new social structure which we would consider healthy.

Emerging from the era of communism is an historically exceptional process. Our economy is not oligarchic, as is the case in Russia. We believe there are three major groups of engines driving the development of the Polish economy and which have contributed greatly to it. The first is foreign equity and direct investment which was needed and welcomed by the Polish economy. The second is the public sector companies which are a legacy of communist times. The third is national equity, by which we mean fortunes accumulated at the beginning of the democratic times in Poland by entrepreneurs who were operating either with the blessing of the former communist party leaders or were protégés of the former Communist Party. This is not the healthiest possible social structure. The situation now calls for development of a greater number of small and medium-sized enterprises and the emergence of a middle class which would provide foundations for democratic development. This has not developed sufficiently in Poland in the past 16 years and as such has been a source of discontent.

We cannot predict whether Professor Balcerowicz will be re-elected to his position until the votes are counted. There is a slim chance that he will be re-elected. He may be nominated for election.

Deputy Sexton

I add my welcome, not only to the delegation but to the Polish citizens who have merged so well with the Irish population. I draw the attention of the esteemed delegation to the fact that my colleague, Senator Lydon, is a Commander of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland, which was awarded for his work towards ending the divisions arising from the Yalta Conference.

Chairman

I thank the President, Mr. Jurek, and his delegation for their attendance and hope they have had a good visit to Ireland. Members spoke well. Our two countries have been thrown together in recent years and while this change will not have had such a significant impact on Poland with its population of more than 38 million, its impact on Irish society has been considerable and very positive. We are fortunate that so many Poles have come here. It has been a tremendously positive development both socially and economically.

As far as the usefulness of this meeting is concerned, the joint committee will continue to address the issues which affect Polish nationals here. On behalf of members of the joint committee, I extend to the President an open ended invitation to communicate to us any issues that may arise regarding the Polish community in Ireland and I undertake that we will explore them. This may be of benefit in the coming months and years as relations between our countries develop.

Mr. Jurek

I thank the Chairman and members for this excellent and interesting meeting and their kind attention and generosity. They are invited to visit Poland any time they wish.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.15 p.m. and adjourned at 3.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 October 2006.