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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2007

Armenia and the EU: Discussion with Foreign Minister of Armenia.

No apologies have been received. The first item on the agenda is an exchange of views with Mr. Vartan Oskanian, Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Armenia. On behalf of the joint committee, I thank the Minister for his attendance which is appreciated. I apologise for keeping him waiting. As in Armenia, there will be a general election in Ireland in a couple of months and it is more difficult to induce members to attend, as they have other matters to worry about. I also welcome His Excellency, Dr. Vahe Gabrielyan, Armenian ambassador to Ireland, and thank him for meeting some members of the joint committee earlier this month in a productive pre-meeting session. I advise the Minister that the format of the joint committee's meetings is very simple. He should make some opening remarks, after which the meeting will be opened up to members of the joint committee.

I welcome Mr. Justin Harman, Irish ambassador to Armenia, and thank him for the help he gave members in respect of the joint committee's trip to St. Petersburg which was extremely useful and productive. His attendance before the joint committee is welcome.

Mr. Vartan Oskanian

I express our appreciation for the invitation to attend this meeting of the joint committee. We are truly honoured to participate and thank members for taking the time to listen to us. This is my first visit to Ireland in any capacity. It is also the first high level visit of any Armenian official since we achieved independence 15 years ago. It is time to activate our bilateral ties. Historically, there are strong links between our two peoples, who are sympathetic towards each other. Despite obvious differences, the two countries have many similarities in terms of size, population and the existence of a diaspora abroad. I also refer to the evolution of the country and its emergence from poverty only 30 years ago to become a prosperous nation, as well as reliance on the knowledge economy to advance its development. Our respective visions have much in common and this visit will certainly help to inform each other. We will try to benefit from Ireland's experience as we continue with the process of state building and the development of the economy in Armenia.

There is also an additional reason for this and similar visits, as well as the activation of our bilateral ties, that is, the European Union. As the Union expands with the inclusion of Romania and Bulgaria, Armenia and its neighbours have drawn closer to its borders. I assume this is the reason the European Union has recently come up with the European neighbourhood policy for its new neighbours. Armenia has joined this process and signed its action plan with the European Union which we believe provides an opportunity for Armenia both to deepen its co-operation multilaterally with the Union and advance our relations bilaterally with individual EU members states, including Ireland.

I had an extremely useful and productive meeting with the Minister for Foreign Affairs a short time ago. We discussed many issues, including how to advance our bilateral relations. We also focused on regional matters, particularly the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and Armenia's relations with its neighbours, particularly Turkey. We discussed Armenia's take on Iran's nuclear programme and the tension between the international community and Iran, as well as many other issues. I was also interested in the Northern Ireland peace process, on which the Minister briefed me. It was extremely useful.

I look forward to this meeting. I will be at the members' disposal for as much time as is available to provide answers to their questions in order that they may be better acquainted with Armenia, the region and the issues we face.

I thank the Minister. As I read the information provided for me before the meeting, one statistic affecting Armenia that struck me was the loss of so many of its people. Since independence, it has lost an incredible number of young people, constituting a large percentage of its population. How can it sustain a growing economy with such losses? Where are they going? I presume they are going to the United States in the main. As this must pose a real difficulty for Armenia, how is the problem being prevented?

Mr. Oskanian

Undoubtedly, there has been migration from Armenia since independence. While this still continues, the numbers are much smaller. They have trickled down to very small numbers. However, in the early stages, large numbers left Armenia. While I am unsure of the numbers seen by the Chairman, I will provide the facts to give members the correct perspective. According to the most recent Soviet census, when we gained independence, Armenia's population stood at 3.7 million. Since then, between 650,000 and 700,000 have left, as the census conducted last year put the population at 3.2 million. The numbers have dwindled. Given our small size, 500,000 or 600,000 is a very high number. However, it does not constitute the majority of the population. The good news is that the number has trickled down to the bare minimum. The trend has reversed and some of the diaspora are coming back to Armenia. Some of those who left during difficult times in earlier years are returning. While many of them went to the United States, most went to Russia and other Commonwealth of Independent States, CIS, republics because the visa requirements were much easier. They are returning as the economy improves.

As to how we have been able to sustain economic growth, in the main it is because of our bold economic reforms. We started early and did it courageously, despite the hardship such reforms created for our people. However, we were very consistent in the pattern and pace of reforms and have simply continued. Today Armenia is one of the most open economies in the world. The Heritage Foundation- Wall Street Journal ranking puts it 27th in terms of openness. The closest to us is Georgia in the 30s, while the rest of the former Soviet republics are ranked higher than 100. Our neighbour Azerbaijan is 120th, while Russia is in a similar position. Reforms helped us to make impressive progress with the economy. In the past six years we have consistently had double digit economic growth of between 12% and 15%.

I refer to Armenia's human rights record which has been described as extremely poor by some. In recent years there have been reports of arbitrary arrests and detentions. Perhaps Mr. Oskanian will respond to this.

I would also like to discuss the issue of bribery and corruption in Armenia. Even though the Government put together a three-point plan to arrest the growth of bribery and corruption, an OECD report in December 2006 stated the number of convictions for corruption was still very low, especially among high ranking officials, and that more attempts would have to be made to investigate allegations and bring cases to court. The OECD is of the opinion that bribery and corruption are still rife. Relations between the European Union and Armenia are developing but these issues will be raised repeatedly. Will Mr. Oskanian comment on them?

Mr. Oskanian

Yes, they are important issues for us. I acknowledge that we have problems in the areas of human rights and corruption. However, these issues must be put in the proper context and the underlying reasons considered such as the slow pace of progress, low pay, a low standard of living and poverty. These are factors in both issues and unless they are addressed first, it will be difficult to make huge progress. However, we are working on them.

Our human rights record is not very good. Naturally, if its remains extremely poor, Human Rights Watch and other institutions will rank Armenia in the category of semi-open society. Compared with our neighbours, we are doing better. Progress has been made but a great deal of work needs to be done. There are arbitrary detentions, which is a serious problem. Many members of the government, including the President and me, were happy recently to see that the European Court on Human Rights had passed judgments on several detention cases brought before it against Armenia. It was ruled that Armenia must pay penalties for illegally detaining the people concerned. This is an alarm call for all officials to be circumspect in respecting the law and abiding by the obligations we have assumed before the Council of Europe. Progress will continue, although matters are moving slowly, but we recognise that there are problems and that they will take time to solve. The Government is firm in its determination to continue to make progress in both areas.

I welcome Mr. Oskanian. I met the Armenian ambassador a few weeks ago and he whetted my appetite to learn more about the country. I was struck by the similarities between our history and that of Armenia which has a similar population. We have good relations nowadays with our neighbour but I would like to ask a number of questions about Armenia's relationship with its two biggest neighbours, Turkey and Russia. Will Mr. Oskanian outline what has happened regarding Nagorno-Karabakh and Turkey because it corresponds with our relationship with our neighbour regarding Northern Ireland? Every time I have read about Armenia in recent months reference is made to what happened in 1915 and the denial of genocide. Why is this so important 90 years later?

Russia is Armenia's other big neighbour, with which it has a good relationship when it comes to exports and so on. How could Ireland establish trade relations with Armenia? Brandy or cognac is one of Armenia's biggest exports, particularly to Russia. However, the French have made it illegal to call brandy cognac, unless it is produced in Cognac, France. How will Armenia's trade relations develop because an annual economic growth rate of 14% is exceptionally good, even from a low base? Are there opportunities for Ireland to trade goods with Armenia for its benefit?

Mr. Oskanian

Our relations are good with Russia, as has been the case historically. We do not see any reason for them to be otherwise. We have significant trade figures with Russia and rely on it for our energy supply and in regard to security issues. This is extremely important. Our relations with Russia will be maintained at the current level, if not deepened.

The main problem in the region is with Azerbaijan and Turkey. We also have good relations with our two other neighbours, Georgia and Iran, but the issue is their problems with other countries. There is tension between Georgia and Russia because of the border closure and that affects Armenia negatively. The tension between Iran and the international community and the sanctions imposed also affect Armenia. Our bilateral relations are good but the tensions with other countries and the international community affect us. Armenia is, therefore, in a very difficult geopolitical position. Turkey's blockade of Azerbaijan exacerbates our situation in all aspects. That is why normalising relations with Turkey, opening the border with it and resolving the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict are priorities for Armenia. We are working actively on these issues.

There is no reason for Turkey to keep the border with Armenia closed. It is open on our side but we cannot use it because it is closed on the other. Armenia has not set down any preconditions to have normal ties with Turkey, despite the historical differences and problems. These issues could be addressed and transcended at governmental level if we had normal ties between our two peoples and the border was open. Short of being at war, there is no reason for Turkey to maintain a closed border with Armenia.

The genocide issue is important for us because it was a tremendous calamity for the Armenian people, with 1.5 million citizens exterminated at the turn of the last century. I am the descendant of a victim of genocide. I was born in Aleppo, Syria. My grandparents walked through the Syrian desert and settled in Aleppo. I am part of the Armenian diaspora and there are many like me throughout the world who have grown up with the stories of our grandparents about deportations, killings, massacres and genocide. It is entrenched in our thinking.

The issue is being exacerbated because of the Turkish Government's persistent denial. That is what hurts most. It is not enough that the Turkish Government fails to recognise the genocide, it denies it and pretends that nothing happened. The government states there were deportations because of treason committed by Armenians during World War I. Genocide was the intent, with the removal of Armenians from the Turkish heartland. There was a fear Anatolia would be lost to Armenians, as the periphery of the Ottoman Empire was reducing. That was the main political reason to exterminate and remove Armenians from Turkey. While we cannot forget this, we should not be trapped by history and not able to look forward. That is not the case for us. We have said genocide recognition, while important for Armenia, is not a precondition for normalising relations between our two peoples. Let the Turks open their borders in order that our two peoples can interact with each other and old memories can be replaced with new ones. Not only are new memories not being created but the old ones are being reinforced in our people's minds. This is creating further problems. Armenia hopes the European Union will help it during the accession process for Turkey and impress upon it the need to have normal, good neighbourly ties with all its neighbours, including Armenia. The Turkish-Armenian border is the only one closed in Europe and needs to be reopened. Armenia is ready for this and has no preconditions.

I refer to the position in Nagorno-Karabakh. It is a difficult process. There are talks and negotiations. I am the chief negotiator on the Armenian side in my capacity as Foreign Minister and will meet my counterpart. The two Presidents will also meet. We are making progress in that regard. The core issue is the future status of Nagorno-Karabakh and the right to self-determination of its people. At the core of our discussions is the notion of a referendum for the people to decide their future, fate and destiny. The talks are evolving around this notion. We hope to be able to make further progress and eventually reach a resolution. There are different stipulations. The process is very complicated because the issue has many sides and layers. It is not only the mainland of Karabakh which is the subject of dispute. There are surrounding territories under Armenian control as a result of the war Azeris started against the Armenians in the early 1990s. As part of the package, these territories will be returned, once the status issue has been addressed. One of the ways by which it can be addressed is through a referendum to affirm the right of the people of Nagorno-Karabakh to self-determination. We will continue our discussions. I will meet my counterpart in Geneva on 14 March in order that we can continue our talks in the hope of reaching a conclusion.

I refer to trade relations between our two countries which are very good. One thing Armenia can offer is cognac. After we had sold the factory to the French, they quit complaining about the name. They are using it; therefore, the issue has been taken care of. Our cognac is good and I am sure it could be marketed in this country. However, our capabilities stretch beyond the production of cognac. There are other products which could be exported, including jewellery, diamonds, minerals and light industry products such as clothing. We can work together in the area of information technology as I know the knowledge economy is at the core of this country's economic development. It has relied heavily on it. That is precisely what we are trying to do through the diaspora, that is, to bring in expertise. Information technology accounts for almost 2.5% of GDP, not a bad figure in relative terms. This is one area in which we can work closely with Ireland, benefit from its experience and perhaps create joint ventures. The diaspora have been successful in Silicon Valley. They are opening subsidiaries in Armenia. Many similar ventures could be created with the Irish IT sector.

Tourism is another area to be targeted. There are many similarities between our two countries. We can generate interest among our peoples to visit each other's countries. Armenia is the first nation to adopt Christianity as a state religion. There are many monasteries in the country. We have stone crosses similar to those which can be seen in Ireland. This pattern is not to be found anywhere else. We have instructed our ambassadors to be more active in coming up with ideas on what can be done in order that we activate economic co-operation.

Since meeting the ambassador I, too, have been reading about Armenia. Barev dez. Shat oorakh em. My question was asked by Senator Quinn and I heard most of the answer. I am interested in the Foreign Minister’s comments on trade links with Ireland and the great cognac about which the ambassador told us. We might import some of it.

Mr. Oskanian

We hope the Senator was given some.

It was confiscated at customs. We will taste it sometime. I mentioned to the ambassador the possibility of forming an Armenian-Irish parliamentary association in order that we might visit each other's countries and get to know each other better. I suppose that is further down the line but it is something which could be kept in mind. We hope to continue the dialogue which has been opened by the ambassador.

Mr. Oskanian

I thank the Senator. That is a wonderful idea, at which we need to look. We have similar friendship groups with other countries and they have been very effective. It would be good for our parliamentarians to be involved in such co-operation to learn about the legislative process. There is much about which we need to learn; the legislative process is one such subject.

I welcome the Foreign Minister. We are honoured by his visit. As he said, this is the first visit by a Minister from Armenia since it gained independence 15 years ago. Therefore, it is an historic occasion.

I refer to the forthcoming parliamentary elections and the presidential election in 2008. There was criticism in the past about the transparency of elections. Will the Foreign Minister elaborate on the steps being taken to ensure they will be transparent? Will there be international observers? How will the media work? In the past opposition activists and demonstrators were arrested. What structures will be put in place to ensure this will not happen on this occasion?

I refer to Armenia's relationship with the European Union. Traditionally, Armenia's main relationship has been with Russia and I presume that continues to be the case. Does it have a policy in regard to seeking membership of the European Union in the short or long term? How is the EU neighbourhood policy working in terms of the various conditions attached to it?

Mr. Oskanian

The Deputy is absolutely right in what he said about the elections. Previous elections proved problematic. According to the observers' reports there were flaws in the elections. At that time, the observers, ODIHR and the Council of Europe made recommendations on how to improve the electoral process. We try to implement those recommendations. Our election law was modified. It is now much more democratic and I believe it will provide a better environment for more transparent elections. Other measures were also taken so as not to repeat the errors and mistakes of past elections.

We must wait and see how matters will transpire. Everybody has a share of responsibility in this matter. The election will be extremely important for Armenia. It will improve Armenia's reputation as a democratic country and as a country which can organise normal and good elections. Everyone's attention will be on the parliamentary and presidential elections. Committee members may know we amended our constitution. Most of the changed provisions are not in place yet. They will kick in immediately after the parliamentary election and once they do, the role of Parliament will be enhanced.

For the first time since our recent independence, the Parliament will appoint the prime minister by majority. We are moving from a presidential system to a hybrid of presidential and parliamentary systems. The president's powers will be reduced and minimised and those of the Parliament and therefore political parties will be enhanced.

Every political party whether in the government or opposition will be extremely interested in obtaining as many votes and seats as possible so its role in the Parliament will be enhanced. Political parties will have a decision-making role on who will be prime minister and cabinet ministers. We will have checks and balances and strong supervision by the political parties themselves. Votes will be counted appropriately to ensure no one is deprived. The checks and balances will work. This gives us a great deal of hope that the mechanism will work and we will have better elections.

Our relationship with the EU is extremely important. The action plan we signed within the new neighbourhood is a five-year programme. As the name indicates, it is an action document. It is concrete in terms of the programmes it includes. If we implement them we will benefit greatly. The document is extremely diverse and broad. It ranges from social and economic areas to energy. It is a clear blueprint for our relationship over the next five years.

Regarding our long-term vision, at this stage we will refrain from making pretentious statements about membership of the EU. We are too distant from that possibility given our economic situation and the country's state of democracy and much work must be done. We wish to focus on the action plan and our reforms. Only after a certain time, no less than five years, will we begin to consider our next step with the European Union. For now, we will focus on the action plan and try to implement it as effectively as possible.

I welcome the Foreign Minister. I was pleased to have met the ambassador two weeks ago. I knew very little about Armenia. Having read extracts from the book I feel a little more familiar.

Mr. Oskanian answered many of my questions as they were similar to those of Senator Quinn. The economy is still in its infancy, Armenia has had independence for only 15 years and it has many action plans. The Armenian Government wants to create bilateral agreements with various European Union members. While there seem to be similarities, difficulties would arise.

Regarding links through tourism or education, where does the English language fit in Armenia? This is also pertinent to a knowledge-based economy and the development of trade between our countries. It would play a major role in Armenia's development and action plans. Will Mr. Oskanian comment on this?

Mr. Oskanian

I fully agree with the Senator. In this age of globalisation, the English language is one of the tools for economic development and acquiring knowledge. We must give this tool to our people, particularly our youth. When I speak about this topic I always state we must modify our education system and introduce computers, English and other languages to provide the tools to enable the young generation to benefit from globalisation.

Fortunately more Armenians now study the English language. In a few years we will have many English speakers. We have the only American university in the region and a French university. The use of foreign languages is increasing the country. The people realise they need these languages to be more effective and more successful. Without them they will not have the necessary tools.

The Russian language is also important for us, given Russia's size, proximity and strong historical ties. I register with regret the fact that the younger generation does not speak the language very well. Soon, we may have more English speakers than Russian speakers. Matters can be viewed differently from different parts of the world. For us, both are important. We must encourage every generation to maintain its knowledge of Russian and also to study English and other languages equally well to communicate with the rest of the world.

One aspect of the European neighbourhood policy action plan is serious concern about the safety of the Medzamor nuclear facility. What is the plan to replace, shut down or phase out that facility? With what will it be replaced? Armenia is not an oil-rich nation. Where will it obtain its energy?

Mr. Oskanian

That is a very good question. This matter is on our agenda with the European Union and is one of the contentious issues. We continue to discuss it. Differences in views exist but we manage to agree on the language in our declarations and communiqués. The bottom line is that the nuclear power plant will be closed one day. It will exhaust itself technologically. Our disagreement arises on when that will be. The EU wants us to close it much sooner than we suggest. We are discussing between 2012 and 2015. Meanwhile, we must replace those capacities with other resources. The ideal for us would be to replace the plant with a new, modern and safer nuclear power plant to serve not only Armenia but also the entire region. Georgia needs an electricity supply which we now provide in winter. Northern parts of Iran receive a supply during the summer. The region needs a new power plant to meet its needs. Given the culture in Armenia, the ideal would be to replace the old nuclear power plant with a new safer and more modern one. The power plant meets 30% of our needs, but we also have thermal hydro-powered stations and are currently investing very heavily in alternative energy resources, including windmills and solar energy. Ours is the only country in the region which has windmills, of which we have five. An Italian company has been contracted to construct 200. If the capacity of the nuclear power plant is replaced in ten years, we may not need a new power plant. For now it is part of our strategy but the vision in respect of energy security is to have a new nuclear power plant. We are engaged in serious discussions with America and others in considering this possibility. Given the price of oil and the crises in the energy sector, it seems there is a shift in international community thinking. For this and environmental reasons, there is more of a shift towards nuclear energy rather than other types. The environment is more favourable in raising this issue and trying to reach an agreement about the construction of a new nuclear power plant.

I have a general question to wrap up the meeting and I hope the delegates will know from where I am coming. It has been mentioned that there are similarities. When the Irish economy was not doing very well not that long ago, we had the best of both worlds. We received a lot of money from the European Union and a great deal of funding from the United States through multinational corporations. I have noticed that Armenia receives approximately €100 million from the United States in aid every year and that the country has an extremely good relationship with Russia from the perspective of military stability, etc. It is also trying to achieve better relations with the European Union, although it is not as aggressive as Georgia and Moldova on accession issues. For reasons of avoiding regional isolation, that is understandable.

The draft EU constitutional treaty failed, one of the reasons being that people felt the European Union was growing too quickly and that we were looking outside its borders too readily and rapidly. If an Irish citizen was to ask those governing Armenia what would be in it for the European Union if there were better relations between the Union and Armenia, how would the question be answered? Senator Quinn raised the issue of trade and the question has been answered, with some areas being identified. In general, what is in it for the European Union in the next ten years? How can we benefit from such a relationship?

Mr. Oskanian

First and foremost, I will mention security, not only physical security in terms of the military and defence against terrorism, etc., but also security from migration and other international ills. EU borders are coming closer to our region. There is the simple fact that a more prosperous Caucasus would see fewer people travelling to the European Union as migrants. It could be one small reason for the European Union to be interested in a prosperous Caucasus. The more prosperous the region is, the more secure it will be. The transportation of energy resources from the Caspian Sea would be better guaranteed by through the Caucasus. If the European Union continues to expand, it should help prospective members in catching up with development. We will continue to develop to a sufficient degree in order that when there is a need for further expansion, such countries will be ready to join. These are the answers in a nutshell.

I thank the Minister, ambassador and others for attending. We appreciate the visit which has proved very useful.

Sitting suspended at 3.26 p.m. and resumed in private session at 3.27 p.m. The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. sine die.
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