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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 11 Nov 2008

Current Situation in Bosnia: Discussion.

Apologies have been received from Deputies Flynn and Creighton and Senator Donohoe, all of whom are otherwise engaged.

Members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, but this does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We are very lucky to have with us today Mr. Kurt Bassuener from the Democratisation Policy Council who will address the committee on the current situation in Bosnia. We propose to visit the western Balkans in the not too distant future. We realise, a fact on which the committee has commented previously, that the western Balkans will be a major player in the context of the stability of Europe in and the progress of the European project. We, therefore, recognise the need for stability and dialogue in the area.

Mr. Bassuener is very welcome. His presentation will last for ten or 15 minutes and be followed by a question and answer session.

Mr. Kurt Bassuener

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for inviting and allowing me to speak. I have sent around a report which I hope can be entered into the record of the committee. It summarises briefly the points I will make.

I have come to talk about a problem that many thought had been solved. Bosnia has been on the backburner and below the radar for a number of years. People thought the problem had been solved or at least that the country was stable. However, it is on a path to becoming less stable, unless policies change. However, I did not come to scaremonger. I am not saying Bosnia is on the brink of war; rather I have come to say that unless the policy of the European Union and the broader international community changes, that is, logically, where the trajectory will come to an end.

This is not imminent, nor inevitable by any means. There is no groundswell for war among Bosnian citizens, Serbs, Bosniaks or Croats; quite the opposite. People are still scarred by the experience between 1992 and 1995. The trauma is very raw and can be exploited for political purposes, as is happening. The political system allows this to happen very easily. Unless the European Union changes its policy markedly towards Bosnia — I posit that we are on bureaucratic auto-pilot right — this winter, before the peace implementation council meeting in March, it will throw away the tools it needs to deal with Bosnia in the manner it needs to be dealt with. There is to be a peace implementation council meeting on 19 and 20 November in Brussels, which will be followed by the meeting in March.

Why are we here? Why is Bosnia on this course? The international community is organised in Bosnia through what is called the peace implementation council. It consists of the countries that were brought together to oversee the implementation of the Dayton Agreement signed at the end of 1995. This ad hoc international body has been looking to close the Office of the High Representative, which was the on-the-ground manifestation of the international community, set up to oversee the civilian aspects of the Dayton Agreement. When the term “transition” was first adopted in 2005, it looked like Bosnia was on an inevitable trajectory towards meeting European standards, and unable to backslide. I am afraid that calculus, while still dominant in the minds of many people, is fundamentally wrong. The European Union accession process is predicated upon the potential member state in question being able to build a political and social consensus to meet basic democratic standards as well as European standards. In Bosnia, there is a structural reason it is impossible to put together such a political centre. There are three political centres, each of which gravitates towards nationalism. While it is possible to build a political consensus at the popular level, at the political leadership level there is a vested interest in not being able to do that.

What needs to be done to divert us from gravitating towards conflict? A conflict could happen because the leader of the Republika Srpska, Milorad Dodik, has a strategy based on the idea that the international community, especially the EU, will get tired of trying to hold Bosnia together, and the ripe fruit of independence will fall into his hands. People accept that as the inevitable reality. He does not calculate that this will inevitably mean conflict. All groups in Bosnia are hedging their bets for the potential of renewed conflict. If the Republika Srpska was to try to become independent, they would try to seize territory that was ethnically cleansed of Bosniak Muslims before the war, especially in the Drina River valley bordering Serbia. There is potential for a wider war than the original that could draw in both signatories to the Dayton Agreement, Croatia and Serbia, although not of the same model.

People are fighting the last war in their minds. When the EU military force in Bosnia is asked to give a threat assessment, the military officials answer very specifically. I suspect the question asked is about the potential threats on the ground in Bosnia and whether there is an imminent threat of military conflict. Now that there is a unified military, the answer to that is "No". However, the threat assessment must be much wider to give a realistic picture on the ground.

What can be done to divert us from this course? The first thing is to use deterrents. The EU military force on the ground, EUFOR, has already gone below the threshold where it can credibly deter local parties from doing anything stupid to initiate violence. The force is based solely in Sarajevo and we only have helicopter strength to lift one platoon at a time from one place to another. Everything else is road-bound. We do not have the ability to prevent the Republika Srpska from attempting to secede, because we do not have forces at the choke point in Brcko that would make secession physically impossible. We do not have troops in Banja Luka, and we only have them in Sarajevo. We must restore the deterrent capacity.

The second thing to do is to identify the fundamental reason Bosnia remains dysfunctional 13 years after the war. That is related to its constitutional framework. To their credit, Javier Solana and Ollie Rehn, in their recent report to the EU foreign Ministers, said that constitutional reform needs to happen in Bosnia. However, they were woefully vague about what they want, and they will leave things in the hands of the Bosnian authorities who have no vested interest in making Bosnia function. The EU must be much clearer about what it demands of Bosnia. It has potentially unrivalled leverage. As gatekeeper to its own club, it could demand whatever it wants of potential member states. It should state that Bosnia needs a constitutional structure that will allow citizens to manifest their needs politically. The Dayton Agreement essentially gave a democratic legitimacy and veneer to something that amounts to a cartel and oligarchy. They pretend to be democrats, and we pretend to believe they are democrats. However, it is not like that. The political incentive structure does not work for representative politics.

The EU is in a very strong position to deal with that problem in its follow-on mission to the Office of the High Representative. Discussions are taking place to bring this in next June. We are still vague as to what that mission will entail and the extent of the powers of the EU special representative on the ground, whether the person will be a eurocrat from the Commission or a diplomat, neither of which are suited to the job. We need somebody with political skills to do this, because it is an inherently political role. The mission would have to be of a different model than any other EU special representative mission to date. It would have to deal with constituency building in Bosnia and essentially squeeze the recalcitrant political class between its own people who feel disempowered and have no faith in politics to represent their needs and the EU to make those demands.

To restore deterrents, we need more troops. We do not have to double EUFOR, although I would leave it to military professionals to determine what they need. However, at the very least we need a battalion in Brcko, a battalion in Banja Luka, and enough helicopter lift, which is a problem worldwide. If we do not have the helicopters, then we must have them dispersed in such a way that they could react to crises. The second thing is to define the "over the horizon" capacity as credible. The capacity to deal with Bosnia right now is the same "over the horizon" capacity that is supposed to deal with Kosovo. Therefore, we get into a shell game. In theory, KFOR is supposed to reinforce EUFOR if something goes wrong, but since everybody knows that we are going to rob Peter to pay Paul in a crisis, there is more of a likelihood that a crisis will erupt in Kosovo. There needs to be something more solid than that. Defining all this and making things clear is helpful, but there is no substitute for boots on the ground to deter a conflict, rather than reacting to something.

There are numerous training and forward operational base possibilities in Bosnia. Eagle Base at Tuzla was set up as a NATO airfield. When it was still a NATO operation, the American forces were based there. The Bosnian Government tried to use this as a training base or forward operational base. That is still possible, so EU battle groups could conceivably rotate through there on a regular basis for training.

Once deterrents are restored, there is a much wider spectrum of potential to deal with the fundamental problem, because fear is removed from the political equation. People are not as likely to be manipulated, and they are also likely to think bigger on how to have a functioning state. The European Union needs to say what it wants constitutionally. This could be done very clearly through saying what sort of guidelines a Bosnian constitution will need to have in place to be EU-friendly. That should mean no ethnification of the franchise or of office, and no ethno-territorialism.

The latter point is the toughest nut to crack but that would be in keeping with Bosnian constitutional court rulings that state one cannot have placenames with ethnic titles. In theory, Republika Srpska should not have that name, according to Bosnian law, but the Bosnian Government has let this slide because the Republika Srpska can apply the brakes to anything that happens at state level, and the international community has kept this issue in the "too hard" box on its desk.

A second point concerns the character of the person who becomes the European Union special representative. If this is made a goal of the mission, which it has to be for any of the acquis or partnership criteria, as well as functional government criteria for Bosnia’s own citizens, nothing will stick until there is a constitutional order that functions.

We have already seen this with regard to how the state-building project has unravelled over the past two and a half years. I worked as a strategist for Paddy Ashdown in 2005 and previously in helping him design his agenda in 2002. All the things that were constructed in that era have either become moribund or are starting to fall apart because the external pressure has been removed. Obviously, external pressure is not something that is sustainable in the long term but the model one should think of is that of Dayton-era Bosnia, which only operated with this external pressure, with a high representative who had the power to impose laws and remove recalcitrant politicians, and the troops to back him up. We are removing the central pillar or tent pole from that structure without anything to replace it, and we are expecting things to work on their own. We have seen in the past two and half years that this does not work.

The EU has to make a choice. Does it want to support a slower evolutionary approach towards dealing with Bosnia, in which case it will have to maintain troops there for a very long time and declare to everybody that it will stick around ad infinitum to deal with these problems? Frankly, had the international community — NATO and the EU — dealt with these problems in 1996, we would be much further along now. The Bosnian politicians have played a waiting game with us because they assume we are always looking over our shoulder at the exits and that ultimately the foreigners will walk away. They just waited for it to be playtime again, and it has been playtime for two and a half years. Otherwise, the EU needs to apply its considerable but unrealised leverage to achieve fundamental change, in which case its equities can be reduced considerably over time once they have reached that goal. That is the choice.

That sums up my position. I look forward to the questions and to our discussion.

I thank Mr. Bassuener for a very interesting presentation. I call Deputy Treacy.

I welcome Mr. Bassuener. We are honoured to have him attend the committee and I thank him for his very clear thinking and focus on this situation. Ireland had a very strong interest in Bosnia for a long time. I had the honour to attend the tenth anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre. In my entire political career, it was the worst day of my political life to experience the tragedy, trauma and devastation that was visited on these unfortunate people. If ever I came away from a place having had instilled in my mind man's inhumanity to man and the outrageous disaster of conflict, bitterness and ethnic cleansing, it was in coming away from Srebrenica after that anniversary day.

I later went to Sarajevo to meet the Irish members of the United Nations military and police services, and had a long presentation and discussion with them. I was very proud of the part we were playing, albeit a reasonably small part, in trying to bring peace and mutual respect to a very difficult region.

I thought we were making some progress. Given Mr. Bassuener's presentation I am extremely worried that we are in a very serious and complex situation and that we have failed to achieve mutual respect and acknowledgement of the rights of each group to try to bring forward consensual progress that would ultimately lead to a political structure and a political settlement whereby the region could move forward in the knowledge that it had the support of the international world and the European Union. We too must take a certain responsibility from a United Nations perspective and more particularly from an EU perspective. As fellow Europeans, we stood idly by for a long time. We did not have the legal capacity, military capacity, political structures, political systems or financial mechanisms that would allow us to intervene during this terrible and traumatic decade of tragedy in that region.

We tried to address that situation through the Lisbon treaty. It is a grave embarrassment to us, as politicians, that we recently had a negative referendum result which has basically held up implementation of the Lisbon treaty. We have halted the capacity of the Union to intervene in situations like this and in the Bosnia in a much more positive manner, which we could have done if the Lisbon treaty had been passed. I am not sure whether Mr. Bassuener had the opportunity while here to speak with our media. If so, I request him to put a clear message across about the responsibility of the Union, and of each citizen and member state of the Union. Collectively, we have to discharge that responsibility in the interests of our fellow man in other parts of Europe and the world where there is a requirement to do so.

Mr. Bassuener might expand on what he referred to as the unified military. To me, that is positive from one point of view but I am not sure how integrated is this unified military and whether there has been a consensual and mutual development that allows for a clear military structure to protect the people and systems, and ensure the support is there to get a political structure into position that can give sustainability to a nation, to a region, to different traditions and to the governmental development that is vital for the future of the region. Mr. Bassuener says there is no threat of conflict as a result of the unified military situation. Perhaps he might expand on this also.

He said the EU may get tired. I would say the EU has got frustrated but I do not think we will get tired. I had the pleasure of working at European Council level for several years with the High Representative, Mr. Solana, and Commissioner Olli Rehn. They were always very even-handed and committed, and they wanted to ensure the Union did what was right. The Union never had a desire, nor has it today, to meddle in the affairs of any member state or to impose its will on them. The whole ethos of the Union is to achieve consensus, no matter the aspect, the difficulty or the complexity. Mr. Solana and Mr. Rehn have been the hallmark of fairness and even-handedness, and have listened and brought back the information that is necessary to the European Council of Ministers and the General Affairs Council in the attempt to ultimately get a positive decision that would assist the restructuring and re-politicisation of the entire region to ensure that Bosnia and its surrounding area can have peace and progress into the future.

There are many challenges for us. The Union must ensure it has a legal structure that allows it to make the decisions Mr. Bassuener would like. Regretfully, all we can do is work on a bilateral basis to ensure we can make progress. This is frustrating from the perspective of the European Union and Mr. Bassuener. Unless we have the legal system that gives us the right to assert our position in certain situations, we cannot get the ultimate conclusion that is vital for progress, prosperity, sustainable peace and a strong political system for the region in the future. Although everyone must work together on this issue, I am uncertain of how rapidly progress can be made.

I welcome Mr. Bassuener to the joint committee. The presentation he has given members is greatly appreciated. I do not understand the situation well and certainly do not understand what Republika Srpska wishes to achieve. What does it wish to achieve, what would satisfy it and what possible solution might it propose? To judge from Mr. Bassuener's presentation, it gains by simply delaying matters. Mr. Bassuener suggested that one solution the European Union can try is slow and evolutionary and comprises being willing to stick around. Another, which he does not recommend, is to apply leverage to achieve fundamental change. Mr. Bassuener should touch on that point again. I refer to the leverage the European Union could apply to achieve fundamental change. While this appears to be essential, I do not know how it can come about. Did the Paddy Ashdown plan foresee a solution coming in that direction or does Mr. Bassuener envisage a different direction?

I thank Mr. Bassuener for appearing before the joint committee and briefing members on the current Bosnian situation. I too am surprised and disappointed to hear the degree of negativity he has expressed today on the future of Bosnia. Members had thought that some political and constitutional progress was being made and it is difficult to discern the reason stalemate now obtains and no progress is apparent. If anything, the situation is going backwards.

I refer to the respective roles of the European Union and the United States. Are they somewhat opposed in that while the European Union is anxious to integrate Bosnia as a member state, the United States's focus on playing a wider game within the Balkan states appears different? How does this relate to Serbia's linkage with the Russian Federation or the recent Georgian-Russian conflict? Are these issues intertwined? Does it suit the United States, or has it suited its previous regime, that a degree of instability would remain there? Are the United States and European Union effectively working hand in hand or in name only? In this context, is the European Union ad idem on this issue? There appears to be quite a difference between some member states, such as Germany and Spain, on the European Union’s current approach to the participation or integration of Bosnia into the broader arrangements of the European Union. Does part of the problem stem from the playing of too many other games or the involvement of too many other special interests?

Mr. Bassuener spoke of Bosnia's political elites. He should elaborate on that point. What is the position at present regarding those who rule in Bosnia? Bosnia is composed of three separate groupings, namely, Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks. In respect of the existing constitutional set-up, what requires such drastic reform? Do any of the existing distinct groups there object to a united constitution? I presume Mr. Bassuener was referring to a single uniform constitution for the entire country. Is the Commissioner for Enlargement, Olli Rehn, making progress? Surely enlargement and the role Bosnia might have in a future enlarged European Union must offer an effective way forward.

Mr. Kurt Bassuener

I will try to address each of the members' questions in turn. On Deputy Treacy's query regarding the unified military, we probably are beyond the point where the military qua military is a potential conflict factor in the immediate term. It is one of the few visible successes of the state building project that is reasonably durable. Units are no longer composed on an ethnic basis as the military was unified on a functional basis. However, to allow the Republika Srpska and federation military forces to preserve some element of esprit de corps and self-respect, the unified military adopted what they call a regimental system. Consequently, one can have a regimental flash that states one previously was a member of the Bosnian Serb or federation armies or the Croatian force, the HVO. Although these have no operational character, the problem is that Bosnia is a small country and everyone knows who everyone else is. Theoretically, were enough stress placed on the system, the Bosnian military could disintegrate, but it would take quite a bit of stress for this to happen.

What is much more dangerous in the immediate term and were there to be a conflict, the potential conflict actors would be the police and the interior ministry forces, which in Republika Srpska are handled at the entity level. In the federation they operate at the canton level. The federation has one more level of Government than the Republika Srpska. If one is a federation citizen, one has one's municipality, canton, entity and the state. In the Republika Srpska, one has one's municipality, the entity and the state and policing is handled at entity level. Moreover, there are many private security companies employing people who guard buildings and so forth. While it is not necessarily the infamous American private security model as seen in Iraq and pertains more to guard services, essentially such people are paramilitaries in waiting. In addition, one has hunting clubs and veterans' organisations. Consequently, there is no shortage of small arms in Bosnia. While attempts were made to disarm people, everyone has what I call their backyard insurance policy, that they can dig up, scrape the cosmolene from and either protect themselves or do something very bad. These are the immediate conflict factors.

It is much more likely that something might happen not by design but because tensions are high. For example, someone might throw a grenade through someone's window in a returnee community. Some people come back in the summertime from Sweden, Ireland and Germany. Although they live here now and already are citizens of the European Union, they go home in the summer and occasionally get into fisticuffs with people in the communities from which they were originally expelled. These are all potential flashpoints that under normal circumstances might not be a real security threat. At present however, the situation has become much more polarised than was the case when I moved to Bosnia three and a half years ago. I have worked on Bosnia for 11 years and have lived there for almost four years and the present environment is infinitely different from when Ashdown left.

Part of the reason is that the international community took its hands off the wheel. It thought it was done. It was sort of the way I used to treat my maths homework, three problems from the end. That is how the international community has approached this issue. It thought it is no longer a problem. One will find people in Brussels who will admit to one's face that they did not deal with Bosnia because they were worried about Kosovo and Serbia and that they could come back to Bosnia once the latter countries have been dealt with. While this has a certain bureaucratic logic, it is rather myopic. Those are the potential conflict players.

Much of what one hears may simply be grumbling to scare the international community into backing up the Bosniak leadership. However, we have gravitated towards a point at which the Republika Srpska can stop anything from working at state level and has made clear its intention, at the very least, to claw back many of the competences and powers that have gravitated up to state level. Consequently, one hears comments from certain high level Bosniak political leaders. My colleague who wrote this segment of the report interviewed the people in question. They stated that there are only 70,000 Serbs between them and the Drina. Mobilising for war would be difficult unless something horrific occurred, but quickly creating something that could spin out of control is more believable. Irrespective of whether such statements are bluster, they represent real frustration.

As the international community, the main component of which on the ground in Bosnia is the EU, has reduced its engagement and the credibility of that engagement, everyone believes that he or she will not be stopped in following unfinished agendas. Republika Srpska is of the opinion that it could pursue independence quietly or allow the EU to restore its powers because no one will stop it. If the sense is that no one will stop such from occurring on the Bosniak side, people will hedge their bets.

The advantages that made the Bosnian Serbs formidable during the war are gone. Since they have no heavy weapons, it would be light infantry and small unit combat. Bosniaks always had a plurality of the population and a manpower advantage. If no one intervened, it is likely that the Serbs would end up on the short end as opposed to what would have been the case between 1992 and 1995.

Stopping the situation from accelerating would be easy. As usual, it is a question of political will. The EU should make it clear that it will not accept secession and will physically prevent Republika Srpska's western and eastern elements, which are joined by a narrow corridor, from connecting. Brcko, the corridor, was not decided on in the Dayton Agreement and was left to arbitration because it made Republika Srpska viable as a potential independent entity. Remove it from the equation and Republika Srpska cannot secede. It is an unresolved issue in Republika Srpska's constitutional status within Bosnia. Taking it off the table and having visible and operationally credible troops on the ground would eliminate the fear factor. The problem would not be solved, but it would become solvable. It is a prerequisite for dealing with the fundamental constitutional problem. In the immediate term, we must arrest the situation from accelerating because it is sliding in that direction, although it is impossible to predict when we will go over the edge.

Regarding Senator Quinn's question, the greatest leverage that the EU can apply is the door marked "Enter". Everything it wants must be done before anyone can enter, which relates to the complaints about Romania and Bulgaria. To be blunt and cynical, the enlargement model worked in Romania and Bulgaria because a political and social consensus could be reached to at least pretend to meet the EU's conditions. Bosnia does not even have that consensus. This is how far we are on the wrong side.

It is not that a social consensus could not be reached from the ground up. While this is a problem, there is also a transmission mechanism problem. An empowered political class feels unaccountable to its citizens because it is not required. All that one must do in an electoral cycle is scare the hell out of constituents and tell them that one will protect them from someone else. It does not matter if people know someone is a thief. Bosnians cannot be shocked by corruption. They assume people enter politics as a for profit enterprise. If someone is stealing, Bosnians believe that all politicians are like that irrespective of how astronomical the amount stolen.

Citizens feel disempowered. The word "apathy" is wrong because it means that someone does not care. Politics is the only item of discussion over numerous cigarettes at cafés. However, there is a sense that people cannot do anything about it. Members of the empowered political elite know, rather than love, each other. Bosnia is approximately the size of Ireland and many among the elite served together in the Communist Youth League and drink together. While there are some hatreds, they have a common interest in not being accountable. They have competing agendas. The Dayton constitution is a second best for everyone because they at least got to keep what they stole without needing to answer to the population.

Allowing a political centre to develop is what Bosnia needs if it is to survive as a state, let alone become an EU member state. The EU is in a position to demand that development. There are many theological, dogmatic arguments against the EU doing so. For example, it would be telling member states how to organise their internal structures, but this is a specious argument. Once someone is in the door, no one will demand constitutional changes. Bosnia is a clearcut case. Changes are necessary for state functionality and the chance to become a productive contributor to the EU as a member state.

Making the price of entry clear could receive significant political support from the bottom, after which the politicians would be squeezed because they would need to react. There is a price to pay when people know who is not doing his or her homework. Unfortunately, the EU's message to Bosnian politicians is that its conditionality is infinitely flexible because it must be seen to be progressing. It does not know what to do other than to follow the standard boiler plate enlargement model developed for a different sort of society, namely, Hungary and Poland where political centres could be formed.

Making the price clear is obvious, but how to make it clear is the fun part. Unfortunately, the way in which the international community selects people to operate on the ground has been on the supply side of the equation rather than the demand side — who can be got for the job, not what type of person is needed. This is how the current high representative was found. He is nice and smart, but he is a diplomat with a diplomat's mentality. He reports up the chain of command as a reporting officer, not as a political actor, which would be necessary to get over the hump. His narcoleptic predecessor was worse.

No one wants the job because it is not sufficiently high profile. Regardless of whether the person in question is competent or qualified, member states argue for the position because it went to someone else last time. It is a job for a big city mayor, someone with political acumen, the ability to play hardball and experience of administering because it is an administrative and political role. There are many such people within the EU. Someone in that population of 500 million would fit the bill and love the job. The difficult part is making the selection in the face of the EU's bureaucratic structures, but this is not impossible. Bosnia's marching orders could be to achieve constitutional reform before being allowed into the EU and to let the new person help in that regard.

None of us knows what background level of nationalism Bosnia has, but it exists and is being magnified by a constitutional system that allows politicians to use fear as leverage and provides them with almost unrivalled unaccountability in European politics. They comprise the most stable political class of any European country. The only way out of the upper echelons is to die, go to jail, be on the run from jail like Radovan Karadzic or become politically irrelevant by forming a new party. Otherwise, there is complete mapping of the political elite of 18 years ago after the first free elections in October 1990. This situation is unsurpassed anywhere else in Europe.

Dayton was designed to give jobs to these people because they were the people who fought the war. One cannot gainsay, one made the deal. Now that the door is open to the EU and NATO, which has been open in theory since 1999, we must move to a different model. It has been a long soliloquy but the point I make is that the EU has the potential to do this.

Deputy Joe Costello asked me about the EU and the US. There is no differentiation of goals. Rather, the perverse situation is that we both have faith-based policies towards Bosnia. The EU believes its enlargement model will work and the US wants to believe that too and hopes the Europeans are correct. I do not sense an inherent friction. It is perverse that the Americans are more articulate than the EU regarding structures for Bosnia's European vocation. That is bizarre but that is the way it works. I say this as an American — the US is skating on credibility that it does not deserve in Bosnia. Among Bosnian Muslims, in particular, the US has credibility for having finally intervened, albeit three and a half years late. The US gets credit for having done it as opposed to not having done it. The Americans have an unrivalled ability to twist arms and play bad cop to the European good cop. If a strategy is based around that, it can work. There is no strategy, one cannot have a strategy without a clear goal and we have no clear goal. We have a variety of approaches among EU member states. At one end of the spectrum are the British and the Dutch, the most hardline. At the other end are Carl Bildt, Italy, Austria and the idea that the EU recipe will solve the problems through the process and that the process will make them free. There is not a set of competing strategies but competing postures or attitudes. It is not part of a great power game.

The Russians are in a win-win situation whatever way one slices it. The role of Russia in the Balkans is to stick its fingers in the eyes of the Americans and the EU because it can. The Russians are not a major factor if we have a clear policy. That we do not makes it much easier for them to do so.

I thank Mr. Bassuener, whose assessment is accurate, thorough and in accordance with views expressed within this committee. We have been keen students of history and are aware of the volatility of the region, as is Mr. Bassuener because of the capacity in which he operates. We are aware of the ability of the region in the past to have an impact on the surrounding area. On the verge of the EU there is greater possibility of it becoming a destabilising factor throughout the EU. This could lead to more serious conflict in the future.

For my sins, I went to the region on holiday a few years ago. The committee discussed the necessity to visit the area and this is being arranged at the moment. It is very important for members to visit it because Ireland has some knowledge of ethnic conflict. This does not mean we are in a position to resolve matters of this nature. The Irish situation resonates with a number of other situations worldwide. It may be that it would be of benefit to committee members and the international community, particularly relating to the Bosnian issue. Committee members will become engaged in this in the not too distant future. I thank Mr. Bassuener. His presentation will be used as a template by the committee in the context of the forthcoming visit.

I apologise for being late for the meeting but I will read the transcript of what Mr. Bassuener said over the coming days. Does Mr. Bassuener think the EU is placing more emphasis on Serbia and Kosovo and that Bosnia is totally forgotten about? Has the new President-elect of the US made comments on what is happening in Bosnia?

How strong are the political leaders? How different are they in attitude? Has normal life returned, socially, commercially, residentially and community-wise? Is there normality? There is a long history of conflict in the region. At one stage, conflict in the region led to a world war. We are fully conscious of the serious problems and the nervous situation. What impact does the success and stability of Croatia have on the region? What impact has the fact that Croatia has been able to stabilise despite much pressure and despite having been punished by the EU at times? It might have helped the entire region if we were more positive with Croatia. What impact has the structure and governmental system of Croatia, and its positive attitude to having a sustainable operation, in the adjoining region?

Mr. Kurt Bassuener

I thank both Deputies for their questions. In response to Deputy Breen, Bosnia was forgotten for a long time. EU officials will admit this. We may be over the hump given that it was on the agenda of the Foreign Ministers' meeting. That was something although they did not come up with anything innovative or grasp the nettle of the problem but it has risen higher on the agenda than it was. There is still no grasp of how deep matters can sink and what can be done about them. People still seem to be on bureaucratic autopilot, continuing to do what they are doing and lengthening the timeline of the transition from Office of the High Representative to European Union Special Representative. A number of hurdles must be cleared for that to be done. What the new mission will be is still very vague. This is both a source of frustration and an opportunity to get it right, which I hope this winter will be used to do.

I can only speculate on the American Administration. A number of former members of the Clinton Administration learned about Bosnia the hard way and ascended a steep learning curve. That Joe Biden is US Vice President-elect is a positive development for Bosnia, the Balkans and Darfur, which is another issue on which I focus. Many of the lessons on conflict dynamics can be taken from that conflict. Bosnia will not be at the top of anyone's agenda in the US, given Afghanistan and Iraq. Regarding the question of how it is pursued and how co-operatively the US works with the EU in dealing with this, there are a number of addresses in the new Administration that are favourably disposed.

Regarding Deputy Treacy's question on the strength of leaders, the Republika Srpska leader, Milorad Dodik, is by far the strongest leader. Part of that owes to his position, the only thing in Bosnia that functions like a state. It functions more like a state than the state of Bosnia because it was designed as such. He is an unrivalled populist and proof positive of the perverse incentives of the Dayton system. He could have built a different constituency if it paid politically. He could have used the Chicago-style "pay the boys" politics which works in Bosnia. One will hear many Bosniaks and Croats state they are jealous and wish they had their own Dodik. Prior to taking this distinct nationalist turn in 2006 he could have developed this constituency. He is the best example of what type of politics Dayton creates. It does not only preserve the old nationalist politics of the past, it makes it pay and generates new nationalism.

He is the strongest leader and everyone else is a pygmy compared to him. There is no question that he is the only big beast on the land. He dominates the agenda. He dominates the Republika Srpska and Bosnia by default. Perversely, he dominates our agenda because until now we worked around him rather than confronting him which was a mistake. He is not the only problem and I do not mean to personalise it. He is a manifestation, the most clear manifestation of this constitutional problem.

With regard to the question on a difference in attitudes, is it among the general population or among politicians?

The difference in attitudes among politicians.

Mr. Kurt Bassuener

Croats feel hard done by under the Dayton constitution because they do not have their own entity. They feel like second-class citizens and are always squeezed between the Serbs and the Bosniaks. They want a better deal from their perspective. The Serbs have moved from an attitude that Dayton is evil. Immediately after Dayton they viewed it as a neo-colonial imposition upon them. Now, they are Dayton fundamentalists and believe it is the best thing in the world because it is the high-water mark of what they got and they know it is all downhill from here unless they keep its structure.

Bosniaks feel hard done by because of how the war ended. They feel they were finally winning and then they were stopped. At the tail-end of the war with the Croatian and Bosnian joint offensive and the NATO bombing campaign they were finally gaining ground and it was a rout. It was stopped before it reached Banja Luka.

Do major human rights problems still exist in Bosnia?

Mr. Kurt Bassuener

The major human rights problems are structural. There is a fear of many people returning to where they had been expelled from but not because of blatant incidents. Americans or anybody else I have met would not have nearly the same level of forbearance. One does not hear of revenge killings and this is a country where everybody knows who did what to whom. It is not because of a lack of firearms. They could do it, but it does not happen. People do not want to jump back into a violent conflagration. The only way it would happen is out of fear or a hothead doing something stupid and events taking on a dynamic of their own.

We have many clear manifestations of normal life returning. We have a building boom, cafes are always full and many roads have been rebuilt. One does not have to go far to see war damage and we have a weird contradiction but it is infinitely better than it was 13 years ago. There is still a black pall over people's heads as to whether things are stable or whether they will return to the Hobbesian existence they had for almost four years. In this sense it is not normal and this will have to change no matter what.

Is there an air of doom?

Mr. Kurt Bassuener

There is an air of fear. I would not call it doom. I would call it uncertainty of the "butterflies in the stomach about what will happen next" variety.

I thank Mr. Kurt Bassuener for a very informative discussion. He has confirmed our best and worst fears and has lived up to his reputation.

I am afraid we must adjourn because the fire alarm is going off.

Sitting suspended at 3.05 p.m. and resumed at 3.06 p.m.
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