Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 5 Oct 2010

Accountability Campaign: Discussion with European Movement Ireland

I welcome Ms Andrea Pappin, executive director, European Movement Ireland, who will make a presentation on its accountability campaign.

Before we begin, there are some preliminary notices to be read. Apologies have been received from Deputy Treacy and Senator Donohoe.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of evidence they give before the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter but continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and the delegates are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person in either House, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Accountability at all levels is very important. To protect all European institutions, the degree of accountability has to be much sharper than it has been in the past. The European Movement will monitor the engagement in Ireland with the Committee on European Affairs included by the Oireachtas. I now invite Ms Pappin to make her presentation.

Ms Andrea Pappin

I thank the Chairman very much for the opportunity to appear before the committee. Last time a team from European Movement Ireland was here was in January when we discussed our submission to the European Commission regarding the citizens' initiative. Since then there have been some notable developments within the organisation, one of which is the reason I am here to address this committee today. We welcome this opportunity to outline our accountability campaign before its first launch, but in order for this campaign to be fully explained it needs to be placed in context within the larger strategic direction that European Movement Ireland has taken since the referendum.

As the committee is fully aware last year, in fact nearly to the day, there seemed to be a collective sigh of national relief when the Lisbon treaty was passed by such an overwhelming margin. We at European Movement Ireland were happy with our contribution to that national referendum debate through our Just the Facts campaign, a multi-stranded approach to getting the basics of the treaty out to a range of audiences. Through our fact sheet series, nationwide events, media appearances, communications training, viral video work and daily e-mail series, during which more than 30,000 emails were sent, we worked through a range of mediums so that people could make up their own minds about this treaty.

Since the referendum last October, we have thankfully had the same focus on research after the second Lisbon treaty vote as we had in previous referendums. Many of the conclusions come as no major surprise. In reviewing the double referendums of Nice and Lisbon, the recent research by Richard Sinnott and his team at UCD concluded that knowledge, or lack of it, played an important role in bringing about those similar results, a statement that seems to verify the usual EU maxim, namely, the more one knows about the EU the more one is inclined to vote for it.

Research by the European Commission also revealed some analysis that was not too much of a surprise, that is, that the sociodemographic profile of a typical "Yes" voter was male, over 55 years of age with more than 20 years of education, most likely to live in an urban area and be self-employed. Again, no major shock. However, there were three worrying trends, in this research and through our own analysis, that came to the attention of European Movement Ireland and made us a little concerned that the national exhale after the October referendum results has a been a little too relaxing.

First, while the overall figures from Nice and Lisbon referendums display very similar overall results, there were two very notable differences in the voting patterns. The rate of abstention in the first Nice referendum was far higher than the first Lisbon referendum, in fact 19% higher. Compounding this further, the size of the "No" vote in 2008 was notably larger, 28% as opposed to 19% in the first Nice referendum. In short, unlike the first Nice treaty referendum, people did not avoid getting involved in the first Lisbon treaty vote, they very clearly turned up and voted "No".

Second, the main issues that appeared in our national discussion about the Lisbon treaty had a touch of groundhog day about them. The research on the first Lisbon referendum showed there were five main reasons people voted "No" in 2008. Only one, at a push two, of those five were actually in the treaty. Instead, we as a country became again preoccupied with the usual suspects of tax, neutrality, conscription and abortion. These are the four issues that now, without fail, we inevitably fixate on when there is a new treaty presented for our consideration.

The final trend was the one that caused us most concern. It was the fact that, in sociodemographic terms, the typical "No" voter is now female, aged between 18 and 24, still in education and from a rural rather than urban area. Taken together, this paints a picture of an unexpected Irish "No" voter, but taken separately it is even more worrying. Through social legislation, cohesion and structural funding, CAP, education programmes such as ERASMUS and through the very development of the Union, women, young people, those in education and those in rural areas are the Irish people who have arguably benefited the most from the European Union but now in Ireland are those most likely to vote against it.

Now after our second double referendum, we have slipped back into a habit that, I am sure the committee will agree for our democratic integrity we need to shake, of discussing Europe in a way which all too often oscillates between the extremes of apathy and demonisation. This is all too familiar. As the European Union referendum flags are now packed away, the trends I have just outlined show there is an even bigger danger that we now must confront, namely, that the lessons of Nice were clearly not learnt and we run the risk of doing the same thing again.

Our country is demonstrating signs that it is becoming increasingly eurosceptic. If that is the decision we make, then so be it, but it is our view in European Movement Ireland that this euroscepticism is more passive than proactive and the product of us as a country limiting our main European discussion to six weeks before a referendum vote. Martin Territt, in his final speech as head of the European Commission office in Ireland last week strongly asserted that, "We should not take for granted that the Irish electorate would automatically sign up for any future treaty change should such an opportunity present itself." He argued that we must not allow public debate about the EU and Ireland's membership of the EU to be confined to times when we are faced with ratification of a new treaty. He finished with the words, after noting the evidence of history, that "There is a compelling need to have a sustained approach to engaging with people on the EU and what it means for Ireland." He wished all organisations with that challenge the best of luck.

As one of the few organisations to take up this challenge outside a referendum context and the only one that is not a single-issue body or a representative office of an institution, we strongly agree with Mr. Territ's view and go even further. We believe it is not necessarily just about getting people to sign up to a treaty but getting Irish people to think of Europe as a whole and the about real impact it has on our lives.

Discussion on Europe in Ireland for the most part happens during a referendum and outside that when our national conversation does touch on the EU too often our focus is on the financial benefits when there has been so much more. As a population, we recognise what the EU has done for us as a country, but this does not translate into active engagement with it or more basic knowledge about what it can continue to do for us. Due to our approach through our education system and our approach to politics overall, too many Irish people are left with less than basic information about the EU. Geography tends to get in the way, with the EU being perceived as "them" rather than "us". This is further compounded by the fact that, given the highly technical nature of its work and the complexities that arise from dealing with 27 political cultures, the materials produced on the EU are not always easy to understand.

While the European Union is founded on clear democratic and citizen-focused principles, the debate on Europe in Ireland is too often framed for us instead of by us. Therefore, it is unsurprising that there is limited engagement except in a reactionary way. After all, how are Irish people expected to get involved in a discussion which we do not feel we can shape and direct, especially when the capacity to criticise constructively has yet to be truly incorporated? Ultimately, why does this matter? We have benefited from and contributed to the direction of the EU. We can continue to do so if we choose that path, and if we do, we as a nation need to decide what kind of Europe we want to have, and work to make that happen, rather than let other people decide that for us.

Taking all of this into account, European Movement Ireland agreed a three-year strategy for our organisation earlier this year, entitled Making the Connection. With our mission statement of getting Europe discussed in Ireland every day rather than just on referendum day, we have developed a range of advocacy and education programmes to generate real debate and influence decisions on key European issues affecting Irish people, and to challenge more Irish people to become directly involved in influencing European decisions. As the EU handles matters ranging from counting cows to trying to negotiate peace in the Middle East and everything in between, and given the capacity of our organisation, we chose a selective, target-driven approach to these campaigns and programmes to deliver this strategy.

Using this strategy as a basis, 2010 has seen us develop three advocacy campaigns, the Citizens' Initiative Campaign, the Graduate Jobs in Europe Campaign and, of course, the Accountability Campaign. As the committee will know from our last appearance here, our Citizens' Initiative Campaign tracks the development of this new democratic tool as it goes from the consultation to implementation phase. Keeping an eye on its progression to see how committed the various EU and national institutions are to fulfilling its potential, we have also sought to influence those institutions on our views of the best implementation practices for the European Citizens' Initiative.

We have also kept an eye on how much public awareness of the initiative exists, and conducted a poll on Europe day this year in Galway, Cork and Dublin. We intend to meet the Departments charged with implementing the citizens' initiative on how best to communicate this new tool using and based on our findings.

Our campaign on graduate jobs in Europe has been designed to show students the vast scope for career development offered by the European system and to encourage graduates considering emigration to look to Brussels and Luxembourg to fulfil their career ambitions. This is due to the fact that we Irish are very good at the business of the EU, evidenced by people such as Catherine Day, John Bruton and David O'Sullivan; when we get there, we seem to do extraordinarily well. However, despite our excellent record and the high regard in which the Irish are held in Brussels, too few Irish people know how well we do in the EU system and fewer still know how to get started on an EU career path. Through ourGreen Book, nationwide career talks, the College of Europe scholarship programme, our stage programme and working with college career offices to publicise upcoming EU jobs, we hope to increase Irish graduate uptake of opportunities in Europe.

In the area of education, we have the "My Vision for Europe" competition, training programmes and our recently completed education audit, which mapped and analysed all school programmes that deal with European issues in this country. The aspect I will flag is the "My Vision for Europe" competition, which is an all-island schools competition for students aged 15 and 16 years old, which we run with a range of partners North and South. Students all over Ireland are challenged to be creative by producing and directing a short video expressing their ideas and vision for Europe. Teams compete for the overall prize of a trip to Strasbourg for their class and teachers, where they will have an opportunity to experience a taste of life as a Member of the European Parliament. If members know of any schools in their constituencies that may be interested in signing up, they should tell us.

I will now speak about the campaign which we are here to formally discuss. Our accountability campaign is focused on testing and verifying a number of long-held perceptions. First is the idea that "them lads in Brussels" are responsible for "inflicting" EU legislation on us, most notably the unnecessary and ridiculous. Second, our campaign seeks to test some of the claims we have heard, most notably last year, about the EU system that France and Germany will bully us with their voting weight and that faceless bureaucrats, usually from other, bigger countries, are the ones who make decisions on Europe.

For us, this is about grounding a national discussion on the EU on contextual evidence, rather than on the "I have heard that ..." school of thought and hearsay. We want to have a real discussion about these long-heard rumours and if they are true to highlight them and work to find solutions. The European Movement, working with its members, advisory council and the European Movement network, identified 20 quantifiable indicators at each stage of the EU legislative process. From the initial conception of the legislation through to its national implementation and transposition, we found 20 distinct markers in the law-making process to use as yardsticks by which we could measure the extent and quality of our national engagement with the EU system. We added to this list nine further areas which quantify the amount of media attention that EU issues receive in Ireland, the level of Irish representation in the EU system and a review of those infamous national sensitive issues to establish changes, if any, in the areas of tax, abortion, neutrality and conscription. Rather than list all 29 indicators now, for the convenience of members we have attached a full list to the presentation document which has been circulated.

There are four main phases to this campaign, of which we are now in the final phase. The entire campaign will culminate in a national report to be launched in early 2011 subject to the verification of figures, after which we envisage continuing this campaign on an ongoing basis, releasing quarterly figures where possible. The campaign has a number of key elements which are important to highlight at this juncture. We are focused on being open, transparent and fair in this campaign. All involved either directly or indirectly, including members of this committee, should have received a letter from us several weeks ago, informing them of this campaign, the reasons underlying this work and welcoming further meetings to discuss the details. I thank everyone who has already contributed to this accountability campaign and strengthened its work.

Further to this, our accountability campaign team has made a clear decision that all data must be taken in context. For example, we welcome the input of those involved to explain unusual patterns of attendance throughout the process, be it at the European Parliament, Council meetings or even here. This also applies to key Government submissions in the Commission consultation process and other stages of the legislative system including implementation. In short, this is the complete opposite of a quick headline grabbing campaign; we have structured this to address our usual habit of shout first and explain later when it comes to EU issues. This is about a larger national discussion and seeing how all of us can take even greater responsibility for our role in that process.

The integrity of our data in this campaign has also been key. Further to the input of our advisory council in the development of this campaign, we have been working with experts to ensure that we maintain a high standard of data collection. For example, our team includes people such as John Beckett. As founder and director of a number of successful technology businesses in Ireland and internationally servicing a range of notable international clients, Mr. Beckett is extremely well placed to act as an independent data integrity specialist for the European Movement.

It is also worth noting that there is great complementarity between the work of the campaign and that of the committee. While obvious reforms are needed at an EU level, much work can be done to improve our domestic processes that deal with European affairs. The committee is only too aware of this work, having developed a sub-committee to tackle this very issue. On behalf of European Movement Ireland, I take this opportunity to note the report of the sub-committee chaired by Deputy Creighton which outlined some highly practical steps we can take to improve our Parliament's handling of EU affairs. The accountability campaign can provide the much-needed evidence to ground the conclusions of the committee's recent report and to keep the discussion on reform in the national arena where it needs to take place.

The campaign provides a valuable service to the national European discussion that needs to keep developing here, referendum or no referendum. We have already had interest from our colleagues in other European Movement offices around Europe in potentially building a system for comparison by tracking these indicators for their country. By doing so, and in particular through comparing ourselves with countries similar to Ireland, we believe there is great potential for this system to provide an even more accurate and evidence-based picture of how Ireland does at the European table.

As the committee is aware, our data are going through verification processes at present and until all data for the year are collected and verified our plan is to withhold the release of figures. We are delighted that the committee has taken such a keen interest in this campaign and we would be happy to reappear before it in the new year to present our results. Through this campaign, a bank of data composed of facts, statistics and evidence will be available to encourage a more informed, regular and national discussion in Ireland on Europe. After 37 years of membership with the wealth of research and data compiled on each referendum, we now have an opportunity to avoid falling into the trap of repeating the same mistakes. It is time we moved our national debate from the land of "what if" to the land of "right now". I welcome the views the committee may have on this campaign and on the work of European Movement Ireland overall. I thank the committee.

I thank Ms Pappin for a very good presentation.

I thank Ms Pappin and I congratulate her on her position. I welcome her to this committee meeting. I am new to this committee and I am still learning. I am interested in the perspective of the European Movement on the notion of Ireland being eurosceptic. I was in discussion this morning with a Dutch colleague who was bemoaning, from a political perspective obviously, the swing to the right in the Netherlands and the growing nationalism there and also indicating the understanding that negotiations on the formation of a government in Belgium are breaking down today with the prospect of another election in Belgium copper-fastening the nationalist vote in the various factions. It seems that if there is euroscepticism, there is a growing nationalist and right-wing trend throughout the Union, and I am interested in the perspective of the European Movement on this.

On the specifics of the accountability structures being put in place, I am a little sceptical about desktop exercises of this sort. I filled in one for the Interparliamentary Union, which is trying to analyse the performance of parliaments. I wonder how one ticks off the performance of a parliament with regard to the number of members who attended a meeting, the number of Bills passed or the number of amendments submitted, some of which could be outlandishly stupid. It seems to be a process created by somebody who does not understand the essence of decision making, either in parliament or in the Council, or in the European Parliament. I do not mean to throw a bucket of cold water on the process, but it seems that one can have almost the perfectly performing dysfunctional parliament ticking all of the boxes.

I welcome Ms Pappin to the committee and thank her for the ongoing help and support she provides to this committee through the disbursement of various articles and information, which come into her possession or which her organisation produces. The work of European Movement Ireland must be recognised by this committee and this Parliament.

In the current environment there is perhaps a unique opportunity while we grapple with our domestic financial situation and, obviously, must go through that at parliamentary level. In recent years, particularly with the Lisbon treaty referenda, we have seen the disengagement, and perhaps the eurosceptic nature of some sections of the Irish population, but, more particularly, the disinterest in matters of a European nature. We are now seeing the real benefits of being part of the Union in terms of support in coping with our current economic difficulties. There is an opportunity for European Movement Ireland to give access or insight into the importance from a citizen's perspective of our association with or our positioning within Europe. That often gets lost in the political debate because the focus is very much on trying to resolve economic problems here. It seems there is an opportunity for agencies or organisations which have a broader European remit or insight to try to highlight the importance of the support of the European Union in the current climate, recognising that if we were not in monetary union and were not part of the European Union, it would be difficult for us to survive.

Perhaps that is a little lost in the debate. Commissioner Rehn's comment on Ireland moving towards a normalised tax environment is being questioned to a large extent in the media who are asking if this is a threat to our corporation tax and if this is the backdoor by which we will lose our competitive advantage in attracting foreign direct investment. Although I do not want to criticise the media which have a job to do too, the catch-cry is very quickly becoming, "The Europeans are coming to get us again", rather than recognition that had Ireland been an isolated economy in the same way as Iceland has been, we would have gone down the tubes 12 months, 18 months or, perhaps, two years ago. We have failed to inform the public to the extent that we should of the benefits attached to being part of monetary union and of the European Union. At the first opportunity to take a comment out of context, there is a headline suggesting that there is a threat to corporation tax. There is a challenge for all of us and I would welcome any comments or views Ms Pappin might have on that.

Other than that, Ms Pappin echoed what Mr. Terret said. I pay tribute to him for his work with this committee in his time here as head of the Dublin office. He certainly has been a great asset to us and to the country in general. I agree with his comments that the result of another referendum cannot be taken for granted. The battle continues to try to put Europe in the appropriate context, and we have failed to do that, even in the current crisis. The work continues.

I thank Ms Pappin for the interesting statistics she outlined. One figure that stood out — perhaps I should have known it beforehand — is that the Lisbon treaty was passed mainly because of the increase in abstentionists — a number of people who had voted "No" previously did not vote "Yes"; they did not vote. It suggests that there is certainly a lack of recognition of the benefits that we have from Europe.

Part of that is down to something I continuously hear. One of the reasons we were pro-Europe was this question of subsidiarity, that laws will be passed closer to rather than further away from the citizens. It appears that greater criticism is arising because the suggestions are that laws are being imposed on us from Brussels rather than being able to be passed here. I would welcome Ms Pappin's view on that because she stated that the question was one of "inflicting" — this is a lovely word — unnecessary EU legislation. I get a sense that perhaps there is not an understanding of the benefits we are getting or are capable of getting from Europe every time we do not use subsidiarity and every time we pass up to Brussels decisions that could be made closer to home.

There is another area in which I wish European Movement Ireland would take some active part, and I am not sure how it can happen. I was jolted recently by the education statistics for those in Ireland who learn another European language. In primary education, 3% of students learn a European language, other than Gaeilge and Béarla, as compared on average to 60% in the rest of Europe. The statistics are perhaps even worse in secondary school, where 8% learn two languages while the comparable statistic in some countries is 100% and the average is 80%. The gap is vast.

I am sure there must be a manner in which we can excite and interest people in learning languages that will give them an opportunity to get involved. From my family point of view, we have five children and we sent them all to school in France for one term before the age of 14 because somebody told us that if one learns a language before that age, one can speak it without an accent. One can imagine what happened, the two girls fell in love with Frenchmen at the age of 14 and are now married to Frenchmen.

Be careful what you wish for.

We are very happy. Seven of our grandchildren speak French, rather than English, first, but they are capable of doing both.

I am enthusiastic about being able to find a way. We should be at least equal to many of the other countries in Europe in this regard, but it is disastrous that there are countries that have 100% of the students in secondary education learning two other European languages while we have only 8% doing so. Some work could be done in that direction.

It is a huge surprise that the typical "No" voter was female, between the ages of 18 and 24, still in education and from a rural rather than an urban area. I would have thought they would have been ones who would be typically "Yes" voters. Is there any analysis, or is anything being done to analyse the reasons that group voted "No"? Those are the people whom we expect will run the country in years to come and for them to have such a Eurosceptic view is certainly concerning. What can be done to redress that position? Does European Movement Ireland intend analysing it and trying to find out why that is the case?

There was a fairly considerable raft of responses to Ms Pappin. It is interesting that the people responding here are in the field all the time. They are in the trenches, giving and receiving information and responses.

There are a couple of issues. There is the question of further research into why young women have a particular attitude to Europe. Some of the reasons trotted out to us in the past few referenda campaigns concerned fears about children being taken away, and that is a real fear for any young women either in a rural or urban area. The fact that those in rural areas are more affected might relate to traditional rural attitudes, so that may be an answer. It is something on which there should definitely be further research as the information should be tested.

Everybody knows that every negative aspect in the country — whether it is economic, social, mental, physical or moral — is attributed to somebody and that person takes the blame. Europe is a very handy victim in most of these cases and it does not do itself justice in many cases. How often in the past couple of weeks have we heard different spokespersons from the scene in Europe who are not well versed on Irish issues — although they may be members of the European Parliament — pontificating about how Ireland would have to accept a different tax regime with regard to corporation tax, as Deputy Howlin referred to? This will not generate enthusiasm among Irish voters, who would see that as an immediate threat.

People here have repeatedly stated in recent years that the problems we face arise from our membership of the eurozone. That is absolute nonsense. There is a considerable lobby within Europe, rather than the eurozone, to right that, but the problem continues to this day. There are very influential lobbies involved. People are regularly presented with conclusions from the media and they associate such negativity and blame, concluding that they do not want any more involvement with Europe. That is a problem which must be dealt with. Young women in particular have issues with Europe. We were told as much in the campaign for the first Lisbon treaty. We questioned them, in so far as we could, to come to conclusions, and the reasons given were along those we have outlined.

Nowadays, it is generally said that girls have more participation in education than boys, and that is true. In college-level sciences, there is a marked difference in the degree to which women go about their business. Perhaps that is the make-up and way they make assessments. There may be a fear involved, as it will motivate and galvanise people very quickly. There is a certain fear of the unknown because of the anti-European propaganda promulgated on a fairly regular basis. I do not have to elaborate on where it comes from but it exists, presenting an undercurrent of fear. I suggest from my speaking with people that it comes from the areas I outlined.

I will not delay the delegate any more other than to say that enthusiasm, support and understanding is regenerated when institutions in Europe are willing to respond to the worries and fears of national parliamentarians andvice versa. It bodes well for that team spirit when both parties do as they are supposed to.

I compliment the Ministers who regularly come before the committee, including the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister of State at that Department and others. Not all Ministers operate with the same alacrity, and that is another problem we must face. I am not criticising any individual but it is a fact of life that if, for whatever reason, a Minister does not find it possible to appear before the relevant committee on European issues, weakness is created in our argument. That gives oxygen to the people suggesting that somebody is trying to kid us. There is nothing as bad at undermining the project than people getting the impression that somebody is out to kid us. If the delegate can answer all those queries in the short time available, she is better than I am.

Ms Andrea Pappin

There were approximately six themes in that segment, and I will pick up on the point made by the Chairman regarding attendance at committees. One of the indicators we have is to track how many Ministers turn up to this and other committees. There is a cross-sectoral approach.

I agree that a desktop exercise only captures so much but in Ireland we are basing the bulk of our views on hearsay, so beginning the count is at least a start. This is not the be-all and end-all and we strongly stress that this is about placing the issues in context. In considering the list of indicators we have chosen, not all are just about attendance at meetings but that gives an indication of what is going on. Why does a Minister not turn up to a committee meeting? Why does a Minister not go to Brussels? There must be an understanding that no legislation will be approved at a Council meeting as a result so we may be having a discussion about the Government jet rather than whether a Minister should attend the Council. At least we are having a discussion.

I strongly agree with Deputy Howlin's comments on the dangers of a desktop exercise and why we have incorporated a number of performance indicators into this campaign. Our starting point was to be as objective as possible and in terms of languages, the language we chose to speak at the start of the process was maths. We had to count or else we would have become too subjective. We all welcome getting into fine tuning further down the line in terms of operational capacity and decisions not taken but we had to start somewhere and find things we could count in that approach.

With regard to the point on growing nationalism, it is interesting as Eurobarometer surveys show that of all the EU countries, Ireland is second only to the UK in terms of our national approach to the European Union. We consider ourselves Irish only and sometimes with a little bit of EU thrown in. There is something slightly different in the growing nationalism.

My other European Movement Ireland colleagues have a different level of discussion on policy issues and general approaches to the European Union, and our problem is apathy more than anything else. It is more about the fact that we do not weave what goes on in the EU enough with our national work. It is polarised and siloed into key subject discussions. That is why we have chosen to track how often we discuss Europe in the plenary sessions of the Houses. We welcome the committee's work but there are more bodies than it making decisions and we want to strengthen the process.

Is that a geographical problem?

Ms Andrea Pappin

It is odd because that picks up on the language issue. Geography is involved in the issue but there is also an attitude involved. Both of these lend themselves to the issue. We are in an island culture and people come to Ireland speaking English; we may hear other languages but more often than not there is no interaction. We do not have the interoperability in flicking between languages, and that fits in with the nationalist approach. We see the EU as "those lads over there" and people do not seem to realise that not a single law can be passed without an Irish Minister approving it. It is a simple issue but that is a use for the Government jet there and then. People do not make such an association.

We find it interesting to go to schools. When we asked who represented the 500 million people of the EU to the Obama and Bush Administrations for the past five years, people had no idea it was Mr. John Bruton. One can see the penny dropping as people realise that he went to America. It is almost like people got on a plane and disappeared. The geographical connection needs to be made much closer. In terms of the level of absentee voters and those who had voted "No", our understanding of what actually happened is that a few people stayed away for the Nice referendum, but more people turned up and voted "No" in the Lisbon treaty referendum. Professor Richard Sinnott released very interesting research last week. What happened between the first and second referendums on the Lisbon treaty was that people who had actively voted "No" were convinced to actively vote "Yes", which is a big difference in terms of overcoming that challenge. It is a very interesting exercise. We have a wealth of research because we are a referendum-driven country. We can consider the Irish experience as providing something in terms of political communication and in terms of explaining Europe to our EU counterparts, or instead that we must, by law, hold a referendum. Yes, it is tough but we are providing a skill. Within the European Movement network we are finding that more often than not we are being asked to advise on communications because we know what will happen at grassroots level.

I could not agree more with Senator Quinn's point on languages. It is something we have grappled with and it is on the list but because we are practical and oriented on delivering it is hard to understand how we can undertake that campaign. We have yet to find a way of getting our hands around the issue of languages. We are looking at the drive we have for science and technology and how that campaign has been able to mobilise students whereas languages have not. It is one of the major hurdles in terms of accessing even more of the European Union system. We welcome any thoughts and further discussion on that topic if members wish to engage in it.

The reason we are engaged in a campaign is to combat the general view that it is "those people over there" who make these decisions on EU legislation and inflict it on us poor Irish who are lumped with it. I am reluctant to release data until they are fully verified but I can see that the numbers that are coming through right now are quantifiably stating that is not the case. In fact, Ireland is doing very well, most notably in voting in the Council. We are doing very well in terms of being on the winning side of the decisions that are taken to a vote. What is interesting is that of the hundreds of pieces of legislation that have passed through the system, so far only 42 have gone to a vote. We have quantifiable evidence to show that 8% of legislation is usually put to a vote. It seems incongruous when one considers how often we talk about voting rights.

In terms of the analysis of female participation, Senator Cummins is not the first person to get a jolt. It is a very stark reality. When I provide some of our corporate members with that statistic, one can see from their reaction, as their eyes rock back in their head, that this cannot be true. At one of the most recent meetings I said that the challenge of Europe is still there. I stated that we must work on it now more than ever or we will fall into the same or even a worse pit than after the referendum on the Nice treaty. The answer I got was: "But we have taken care of that, haven't we?" We have not taken care of it.

More work needs to be done on drilling it down in terms of researching the reason for this statistic regarding women. In broad terms, it was trying to provoke an interest in Europe, but for women it was trying to allay concerns. That is generally the view that people have in terms of the approach. Women are more reluctant to give away more power by way of treaties because they are not sure of the implications. This is largely the case because of their children. The Chairman's views on that are correct. More needs to be done.

Education is at the heart of what we are doing. I am referring to education that is not patronising or that is blindly cheerleading the EU but which is challenging and asks people the reason and the basis for the views they hold. We have carried out an education audit and have mapped more than 20 programmes that deal with the EU in primary and secondary schools. Right now we are running into each other in terms of the approach we are taking. Too often people are focused on one area and do not see who else is running a programme on the EU and whether they can, through an economy of scale, have a bigger impact. Teacher training needs to be drastically tackled in terms of the knowledge on the European Union. The knowledge is not there and primary teachers command a presence in a classroom. That is an area that we would prioritise. We will be circulating our education audit in a couple of weeks and members will get a copy of. It makes for very interesting reading in terms of what we actually need to do. We need to think smarter and the education system is one such area. We launched the competition "My Vision for Europe" so that Europe is not considered up there with loft insulation, but is actually considered something that people could be interested in it. By giving children a video camera and asking them to direct their own movie, it is fascinating to see what comes through in terms of their psychology and also getting them involved and interested in it. I hope I have answered members' concerns on the six areas that have been identified.

I thank Ms Pappin. It goes without saying that the European institutions have improved considerably in their ability to listen. They were not always as attentive to the voices raised and concerns expressed by members of national parliaments. They have improved considerably. I remember being on this committee during the time when a commissioner would only meet in committee and refuse to meet in public. I am delighted to see that has changed completely and commissioners are appearing and we have access to commissioners on a fairly regular basis. That is the way it should be and that is the way it was intended to be. A little more of that would generate a great deal more confidence in the system. What the public do not like is secrecy. I believe the important point is that if it is the view of a committee that the Minister should appear before it, then it is in his or her interest to appear before the committee because refusal to so do creates suspicion and that is where a problem may arise. It may be no one's fault. I pay particular tribute to 95% of the Ministers——

Who is among the other 5%?

——who understand. They were former Ministers. It is of significant importance if we want to generate confidence in the system.

It is important for this committee to be represented at the discussions that take place in Europe at the appropriate level. Failure to participate and to appear is a recognition that the show can go on without one. As we all know, we are criticised for that, but it is our job to do so. If one does not do a job, because somebody will criticise a member for whatever reason, that is a serious problem which will lead to further serious problems. Members will be glad to know that the members of this committee who went to Brussels last weekend were neither absent nor silent.

I apologise for being late. I was delayed at DCU talking to students about EU and domestic issues.

Following our trip to Brussels last week, what I noticed is that the Lisbon treaty has certainly improved the role of MEPs and that they now have a say in the European budget. To use a harsh expression, it put manners on some people and they now pay attention to what the European Parliament has to say about things. We should shout loud and hard that the Lisbon treaty has done a tremendous amount in terms of highlighting the strength and importance of the European Parliament.

That leads me to another issue, namely, that the lack of media coverage of European matters in Brussels, or in the Parliament, is appalling. That our national broadcasting authority is allowed to continue to provide 20 minutes of air time on European matters at 1 a.m after MEPs have spent their week in Strasbourg is appalling. How does one expect people to know what is happening if the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland does not provide the information. That is an issue that must be tackled. If an accountability campaign is being undertaken I respectfully suggest that it highlight the lack of proper coverage on what happens in Brussels. We must look at ourselves also. For example, a long list of reports made by this committee on European issues has been on the Dáil Order Paper for months and years and the issues have not yet been debated in the House. Let us be frank and honest about this — if the national parliament treats this issue with a second class importance when it comes to public debate in the House, it is difficult to complain about the lack of attention we get from the public.

I have only recently come back to this committee but I noticed, while I was not a member, the lack of coverage of the workings of this committee. The sooner we have our own dedicated channel where the workings of the committees and the Chambers can be aired the better. We have a commission and all types of other bodies and moneys being spent here, there and everywhere, but the one thing we have ignored is our means of communicating with the public. If a dedicated channel was in place, some of the important committee meetings and various debates could be shown during the recesses. This is all about providing information to people. The young people do not have a clue, not an iota, as to what is happening in here. How would they? Yet, as pointed out, there are opportunities for young people, in the field of languages and so on. Given that they do not have a clue about how the Parliament here works, they could hardly be expected to understand how the European Parliament works and the difference between the European Commission and the European Parliament.

I understand Ms Andrea Pappin is playing a very positive role and an organisation such as European Movement Ireland can do much to highlight issues whereas when we raise them we are regarded as seeking publicity for ourselves. I am not concerned about publicity but about the fact that in any democracy there must be a system that imparts information to the public. When I arrived in this Parliament many years ago we had reporters who reported on what happened here. We now have journalists who are analysts. Snippets of information are given but no details. Depending on one's viewpoint, a particular slant is given to the story. This is part and parcel of the widening of the gap between us and the general public because they are not being given the information. How can we tackle this gap? That is the real problem. It is only when we want a treaty passed that we understand how difficult this can be. We have spoken about this issue every time there has been a treaty referendum debate and we promised everybody that we would improve our communications. As far as I am concerned I do not think much has improved. I urge European Movement Ireland, as an independent body with no axe to grind and no political influence, to join in and try to do something about imparting information in a way that people might tune in to it, through issuing booklets and so on. At the end of the day one reaches perhaps a quarter of one per cent of the public. We must find some way of informing the people.

I thank Ms Andrea Pappin for appearing before the committee and also for the work she does.

I welcome Ms Pappin to the committee and thank her for her presentation. I come from a rural constituency and I am conscious that if I speak to a farmer in County Mayo about the importance of the EU he will have a very good understanding of it because it impacts on him directly in his pocket. I am not surprised about the statistics for women; the only surprise is that the statistics are not the same for older women. Certainly in the course of the Lisbon treaty referendum campaign, I found women of all age groups more sceptical than anybody else in society. It is interesting to note that when I discussed the individual issues with them as to whether conscription or abortion was the problem, it was neither. In individual cases that was an issue but they could not identify how being a member of the EU impacted directly on their lives. That is the key. It does not matter where in Ireland one comes from. For example, in the case of a man and woman living in the same household, one can have an opinion on how the EU impacts on him or her, be it positive or negative, while the other does not see any impact.

As one gets older, having left school and university, one gets most of one's information through the media, newspapers and radio. If the information is not balanced or accurate, what one read in yesterday's newspaper tends to inform one's thinking. All the EU institutions were positive in their support of the Lisbon treaty. Almost all political parties in Ireland, with one or two notable exceptions, asked for a positive vote. The political body sees the benefit and yet in the second Lisbon treaty referendum campaign it took a huge involvement from the non-political bodies to swing the campaign at the end of the day. What does that suggest? There is a very serious message in that. How can we address it?

This is unusual but we will have a final word. The points raised by members should be borne in mind. We have spoken about them before but nobody pays any attention. There is a conspiracy to damp us down, to throw a cotton wool blanket over us and snuff us out.

I thank Ms Andrea Pappin for her presentation. What type of work is being done in schools? Sometimes we visit schools. We find that children of 14 years of age are not cynical until they reach the dark edge or whatever, when they become very cynical about politics. The younger people are taught politics the better. MEPs should be used to put a human face on the issue. Visiting schools is an opportunity for students to see that politicians are human. Is it planned to do anything on those lines?

I joke about the conspiracy but I do not joke about one other issue. There was a concerted effort from some powerful media groups in Europe throughout both campaigns, to gain access to every house in the country, every day. It managed to do that very successfully and undermined public confidence in the European institutions and created fear. The point made by Deputy Barrett and others is valid. The only way to counter that is to give the bare-faced transmission direct and live of what is happening in both places, in so far as that can be done. The downside is that people will say it is not commercially viable and that nobody will look at it. That is a comfort zone for people who hold that point of view. There is nothing to beat direct live transmission, not edited but live transmission. That puts the onus on those who represent people at whatever level to be there and not only to hang around but to say or do whatever they have to do. If we do not get to that position fairly quickly, the message is likely to be lost.

Council of Ministers meetings are streamed live on television?

They are. That is right.

Ms Andrea Pappin

At least the video is available.

It seems Irish people had a greater affinity with Europe in recent days than they have had for a long time——

We had. That is right.

——with the Ryder Cup.

Not always to our advantage, but to our liking.

Ms Andrea Pappin

Several points were made and I will deal first with the point regarding the four categories. There were four distinct categories with the central trend relating to the young woman. The categories were women, everyone aged 18 to 24, people who were in education and people from rural areas. The categories include women and the finding in respect of women did not come as any great surprise. We prioritise our work in terms of targeting young people and women.

In terms of schools' programmes, I reiterate that My Vision for Europe competition for schools is the first programme that has involved all partners. One issue about which we are passionate is to ensure that we do not run only small piecemeal programmes but that people understand where everyone is working. As part of our education audit, we identified 20 programmes that are being run, but we need to run them better. As part of the My Vision for Europe competition, we run a roadshow and offer to bring it to a school if it wants to be informed on this area. The programme is interactive. We do not lecture the students but get them to engage in activities. A simple exercise we do is to hand out maps and we ask students to name the 27 member states and tell them that those who can do so will win a prize. To date only students in one school have been able to do that.

We have built another programme based on interaction. The EU is huge. I have worked in this area for nearly a decade and I still do not know all the details. I know where to go to get the information and that the issue involved is about participating in it. We have built the energy dilemma game. We set a school class the challenge of making European law. Only one class has not been able to do this. This form of learning is called a conscience corridor. It is a simple non-formal learning technique of getting people involved, knowing that by playing one's part in the process, one will get everyone involved. It is an interesting exercise because suddenly 16 years olds are talking about needing a derogation for Poland, as it will need a few years to implement energy law, and about having an energy ombudsman in office for the next ten years. They realise they can quickly adapt the information they have been given. The exercise is not about lecturing or patronising the students but asking them to play a part in the process and the learning aspect the educational role. That is why My Vision for Europe has been based distinctly on a video-making competition because the students have to become their own director and producer. This is based on the Forum on Europe debating competition. We saved that component of the forum and have modernised it into a video-making competition. Those examples will give members a flavour of some of the work we do in schools.

We wish we could run the roadshow more extensively but our limitation to doing so is funding, as two of us have to be on the road to do that. We are examining other avenues to try to put some programmes together to ensure there is a less piecemeal approach to this and that we focus on the priority, which is to get young people more interested and to become more knowledgeable about the basics.

What has been the level of take-up by schools of that programme?

Ms Andrea Pappin

Last year was the first year we ran the My Vision for Europe competition. Some 21 schools gave us videos. They are all available on the myvisionforeurope website. A national final was held in the Irish Film Institute where each school had its film broadcast. The schools had a national screening of their videos. Six schools were in the final and a further six schools took part in the workshop. There is an open call in terms of this competition. We are happy to run it in any school that is available to engage. Biased as we are about it, it is a fun process of which to be a part and to see students getting to grips with it. We also play a game where we build the country of Ireland but it is not in the European Union. People who come to our country give up a right on arriving. Rather than lecturing students, this exercise helps young people realise what rights people here have already.

In terms of what Deputy Barrett said about knowledge, we have to establish what we need to tell people. All too often the European Union work is focused on the details, technocratical elements and processes. We would like to develop much more of a view on the policy underpinning the work and to establish the level of knowledge people need. Do people need to know what commitology in the Lamfalussy procedure is or do they need to know that in terms of the Councils to which Ministers go, EU law cannot be passed without an Irish Minister agreeing to it? That is more relevant but all too often we focus on the technical elements. That ties in with the point that has been raised by people asking what does the EU do for them. Too often logic and technical detail drives the issue of the European Union rather than a general mood towards it and the notion of having more of a connection with it. We do not have to love Europe but we have to at least recognise the benefits of membership of it and award credit for them to Europe and appreciate that people who have worked at the European table, so to speak, have achieved them.

In terms of media coverage, the indicators numbered 24, 25 and 26 pertain to the media. We are tracking the number of minutes on radio given to EU issues, the number of minutes on television given to European issues, and the number of national articles. It is a tough exercise to track such coverage and we must be balanced about it. However, at least it is a start in trying to capture how much time is given to those issues. This exercise will enable us to again raise this issue to have a national discussion on it.

The Chairman spoke about confidence. We hope that is what this campaign will achieve, namely, that Ireland and Irish people will have a little more confidence about the fact that four out of the 27 European Commissioners' spokespeople are Irish, the fact that of the five people who have held the top civil service job in the European Commission — only five have held that post — two have been Irish, and the current post-holder is Irish.

Ms Andrea Pappin

Yes, and a woman. She comes from my rival school but we will not mention that.

She does not come from the 18 to 24 age group in rural Ireland.

Ms Andrea Pappin

That is why we ran the Graduate Jobs in Europe campaign — it is about finding the next Catherine Day and David O'Sullivan. Ms Catherine Day went to Europe in the 1970s. It takes time to get people up to the system but once people get into it they do very well. In Ireland, the issue is about changing the mood and attitude towards Europe and we hope that by grounding this issue in evidence we can have much more of a rational and national discussion on it. We look forward to presenting our findings to the committee early in the new year.

I thank Ms Pappin for her contribution. We wish her well with the rest of the campaign. The committee will do everything possible to assist. I sincerely hope, and have no doubt, that as a result of her appearance here today there will be coverage of a positive nature of her organisation's campaign and to the issue that she, and the committee, are trying to address.

We will now go into private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.20 p.m. and adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 October 2010.
Top
Share