JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN SCRUTINY debate -
Tuesday, 24 Feb 2009

Road Safety: Discussion.

Chairman

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss COM (2008) 151, a proposal to facilitate cross-Border enforcement in the field of road safety. I welcome Ms Eilish Kennedy, principal officer, and Mr. Declan Hayes, assistant principal officer, from the Department of Transport and Mr. Brendan Callaghan, principal officer, from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Ms Kennedy to make her opening presentation.

Ms Eilish Kennedy

We are happy to be here to assist the committee in its consideration of the proposed directive and answer any questions members may have. We have provided a briefing note on the draft directive which sets out a summary of the current state of the directive and some background information on road safety in the European Union. We have also gone through the provisions of the directive in some detail and the implications for Ireland. We also outline the difficulties the draft directive has encountered. I can go through the briefing note very quickly.

The proposed directive was an initiative of the French Presidency in the transport sector. However, at the end of that period there was no agreement on it among member states, the majority of which, including Ireland, were of the view that because the proposals related to enforcement across borders, they were a justice and police rather than a transport matter. The proposed directive has not been included in the work programme of the Czech Presidency.

Road safety is a very important issue for member states. It is an overall EU objective to halve the number of fatalities on EU roads by 2010. Enforcement of the law is a very effective instrument in improving road safety and reducing the number of injuries and fatalities. While each individual member state has competence and jurisdiction within its own boundaries, enforcement across borders requires action at a bilateral or multilateral level. This is a complex and difficult issue, primarily because of differing legal systems across member states.

The European Union had an initiative in place in this regard, the 1998 convention on driving disqualifications. This set a framework for bilateral agreements between member states to allow a driving disqualification earned in one member state to be notified and applied to the driver's record in his or her own member state. Ireland is working with the United Kingdom to finalise such an agreement between our two countries this year. The convention relates particularly to disqualifications arising from reckless or dangerous driving, a hit and run, driving under the influence of intoxicants, speeding and driving while disqualified. The proposed directive at which we are looking is a further initiative in the area of cross-border enforcement. It focuses on the exchange between member states of details of the owners of vehicles involved in particular offences in order that financial penalties for these offences, other than financial penalties imposed by a court, can be followed up by the authority of the member state in which the offence occurred.

According to EU statistics, road traffic accidents in member states of the European Union annually claim approximately 43,000 lives and leave more than 1.8 million people injured, with a total estimated cost of approximately €160 billion. That figure of 43,000 lives represents a reduction on the 54,000 recorded in 2001. For the first time in 2007 there was no percentage reduction in the number of road fatalities in the European Union as a whole, despite continuing improvements in a number of countries, including Ireland.

The European Transport Safety Council, a voluntary body, monitors road safety performance in member states and produces regular reports and updates. Ireland has done very well recently. It has moved into the top ten European countries for road safety performance in terms of the number of fatalities per 1 million, from 16th in 2005 to ninth. The three top performing countries in 2007 were Malta, The Netherlands and the United Kingdom. It is expected that when the 2008 figures are published, Ireland's standing will have improved further. Ireland's performance is also the second most improved in Europe in terms of a reduction in the number of road deaths between 2006 and 2007. Last year Dublin was highlighted as the best performing EU capital in road safety during the same period. Recently Ireland was announced as being in joint fifth place with Belgium in reducing the number of child fatalities among those aged zero to 14 years, with an average reduction of just under 10% per annum in the past ten years.

Road safety has a high priority here which is reflected in the adoption by the Government of the Road Safety Strategy 2007-12. This is the most ambitious and comprehensive strategy to date which aims to put Ireland on a par with countries with a long-standing record of excellence in road safety such as the United Kingdom and The Netherlands. The overall objective is to save lives and prevent serious injuries by reducing the number and severity of collisions on the road. The strategy will bring Ireland into line with best practice countries on road safety. It will reduce the number of fatalities to not greater than 60 per 1 million, the equivalent of 252 fatalities per annum or 21 per month, with a demonstrable reduction each year of the strategy. The comparable fatality figure for 2006 was 365. The strategy identifies 126 specific and measurable actions under the headings of education, engineering, enforcement and evaluation for implementation by a number of agencies, including the Road Safety Authority, a number of Departments, including the Department of Transport and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána, the National Roads Authority and local authorities, among others.

The overall trend in road fatalities in the past decade has been downwards, from 472 in 1997, with particular declines recorded in the last few years. The number in 2008 — 279 — was the lowest since the earliest recorded in 1959. The positive trend continues, with the number this year at 29, down 19 on the same date last year.

Injuries and fatalities must be considered in conjunction with the overall population and the number of vehicles on the road, both of which have been increasing in recent years, with 1 million additional vehicles in ten years. Injuries and fatalities relative to population and vehicle numbers have been declining noticeably in recent years. In the past decade the death rate as measured against the number of vehicles has more than halved; this is as a result of a combination of the road safety programme, in relation to vehicles and drivers, and the road investment programme.

Chairman

There is a lot of detail which could be taken as read and included in the final report which will be compiled by the committee. Perhaps Ms Kennedy might deal with the proposals made and comment on the enforcement possibilities of this law.

Ms Eilish Kennedy

I will do that, Chairman.

Chairman

Everything will be recorded in our report.

Ms Eilish Kennedy

The proposed directive relates to four particular road traffic offences which are responsible for the majority of injuries and fatalities in the EU. Those offences are speeding, driving under the influence of alcohol, not wearing a seatbelt and driving through a red light. Ireland supported the core objective of the proposed directive because cross-border enforcement of road traffic offences is a matter of interest to all member states. However, the detail of what was proposed raised major and fundamental difficulties.

The proposals envisaged a procedure for the electronic exchange of information between member states on the registered owner of a vehicle where any of the specified road traffic offences was committed in one member state by a vehicle registered in another. The information on the offence and the financial penalty imposed on the non-resident vehicle owner was to be provided by the member state in which the offence occurred. The directive did not deal with the follow-up to the offence and the question of whether payment was forthcoming.

The proposed directive would have required the national vehicle and driver file of the office of the Department of Transport in Shannon to provide another member state with information on the registered driver. Where a person from another member state committed an offence in Ireland, the Garda Síochána would request the other member state to provide that information to us. Once the information was received the Garda Síochána would have to notify the non-resident offender on a specific form instructing the person to pay the financial penalty within a set period.

The core difficulty was that, under our legal system and unlike in some other member states, all the offences under our Road Traffic Acts are criminal offences. This means a person accused of a particular offence must be given the option of appearing before a court. We do not have the option of applying an administrative fine or penalty such as was envisaged in the draft directive and such as is possible in other member states, such as France. Implementation of the draft directive was not just a matter of changing road traffic law but would have had constitutional implications. While we have a fixed charge system which includes penalty points for some offences, it is not the same as an automatic or administrative charge as the person involved has the right to go to court.

As discussions progressed in the working group, serious and fundamental difficulties emerged, particularly about issues of Community competence and the variety and complexity of the legal systems in the various member states. The view quickly emerged that the directive related to enforcement, which is a justice and police issue rather than one of transport. Because of the complexity of the issues no clear solutions emerged. The EU's own counsel and legal service opinion was that, because there were no common rules for the four road traffic offences, it would be contrary to the treaties to establish Community rules on criminal procedures for the enforcement of purely national rules.

The French Presidency put forward various redrafts and other proposals but was not able to overcome the core issues. In some cases it created new difficulties which raised issues relating to policing operations, which are a matter for individual member states. The more the discussions progressed the clearer it became that these complexities could only be addressed in the context of justice and police co-operation. The majority of Ministers, including the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Noel Ahern, expressed this position very clearly at two transport Council meetings in October and December. On both occasions the Minister of State stressed the need to be realistic about what could be achieved and the importance of delivering a solution which would be both workable and legally sound for all member states. He also pointed out that it was not advisable to promise something which could not be delivered or to agree on a quick fix which would prove to be unworkable or give fertile grounds for litigation.

The French Presidency ended with no agreement on the draft directive and no proposals for future developments, either within the transport or justice and police areas. Our understanding is that the proposed directive is not on the work programme of the current Czech Presidency.

I have also outlined more information on road traffic offences which I assume the committee does not want.

Chairman

Does Mr. Callaghan have a comment to add?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The presentation covers the views of both Departments. The enforcement of road safety measures is important to the Garda, especially with regard to drivers not registered in Ireland. The Department and the Garda favour co-operation with police forces throughout the European Union; the practical question relates to finding the correct legal basis for this.

Chairman

With regard to Northern Ireland, how far has the debate gone? We are speaking of Europe but what is the likelihood of progress on the matter between the North and South? Many crossing the Border from the North and vice versa face difficulties.

Ms Eilish Kennedy

We are working on the matter with the authorities in Northern Ireland and Britain and are close to finalising an agreement under the convention on the mutual recognition of driver disqualifications. It will mean a disqualification picked up outside a driver's home country will be recognised in it. We are finalising a draft formal agreement between the two countries and will make a declaration to the European Union, a formal procedure under the EU convention. There has been much useful co-operation with our UK colleagues on the matter. In the long term we will work with them on the mutual recognition of penalty points received in either jurisdiction. This will be a longer process because the penalty points system is structured differently in the two jurisdictions; we envisage that the process will take a few years to complete.

Chairman

I welcome the reduction in the number of fatalities in Ireland and the fact that our position in Europe is improving, although the level across Europe is frightening. Is it the view of the delegates that Ireland should have a concern about the directive?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

Yes. While we are very interested in its core objective and understand cross-border enforcement is an issue all member states wish to address, the matter is very complex, to which no easy solution has been found to date. The directive has not yet become workable.

Chairman

Will Ms Kennedy explain the practical difference between a third pillar and a first pillar solution? What would be the impact of opting in or out? This debate has taken place mostly with reference to the first pillar, in respect of which there would be no derogation. Is this part of the difficulty?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

The third pillar relates to police enforcement issues. The fact that a cross-border offence is in question means co-operation between police forces is the key to finding a solution. The directive was initiated in a transport committee, which was not the right forum. The majority of member states considered police co-operation was the only way to progress the core issue but this could not be achieved through a transport framework.

Chairman

If a person driving in Ireland on a European licence were to break the law, is it the case that the penalty points system which would apply to an Irish driver would not apply to him or her? That person could have been resident here for a number of years and still use a European licence.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

If a driver who does not have an Irish licence commits an offence, the points are recorded by the Department of Transport computer. If that driver applies for an Irish licence which by law he or she should do if he or she is resident here, the points will be applied to that licence.

Chairman

However, he or she is not breaking the law if he or she drives with a European licence. If a driver comes from France, he or she can still drive with a licence issued in Paris. Is there any curtailment? Can such drivers go back and have their licences renewed?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

They may have their French licence renewed but I suspect the French have their own rules for persons not resident in France, even if they are French citizens. However, the regulations in place in Ireland mean one can only drive with a non-Irish licence up to a certain point, after which one has to apply for an Irish licence.

Chairman

What length of time is involved?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

I am not sure.

Ms Eilish Kennedy

We are not sure. There is a provision under which if one is resident here, one is supposed to apply for an Irish driving licence after a certain length of time. We will have to come back to the Chairman on the issue.

Chairman

Is there a legal requirement to do so?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

I am sorry but we do not have that information with us.

Deputy Joe Costello

I thank the delegation for attending to explain the position. The issue of public safety on our roads is a very important one. It is good to see there has been a very substantial reduction in the number of fatalities. There were 472 in 1997, which number was reduced to 279 in 2008. Therefore, we are clearly moving in the right direction. However, we are still just creeping into the top ten in Europe. Our neighbours across the water are at the top. We must emulate them, which is the least we can do.

The Chairman raised an important point, namely, that in discussing such issues we need the domestic statistics. We need to know the level of fatalities and injuries caused by speeding, drunkenness and so on by, for example, drivers coming from Northern Ireland into the Republic or other drivers with licences and insurance policies in other jurisdictions.

Second, we do not have a clue what is happening in other EU member states. Workers and others who have come to Ireland in recent years have brought vehicles with them. They have been here for years but if they have licences and insurance, they have been taken out in other jurisdictions. There is virtually no instance, as I understand it, in which such a person applies for a licence or to do the driving test in this country. They also operate without NCT documentation. There is no mechanism by which the Department of Transport and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform can monitor the position. We are, therefore, operating totally blind. We know from reports in the media that a substantial number of accidents and fatalities are caused by these vehicles but we need the statistics and to know what is happening in this respect if we want to try to curtail it. Many of the vehicles in question are very old and not roadworthy but there does not seem to be any effort, plan or mechanism to monitor the length of time they are in the country, whether the owners are resident on a permanent or temporary basis or whether NCT documentation will be sought. This is a major part of the problem we are facing. It is a cross-border problem. We have been very successful in reducing the number of fatalities and serious injuries and while this is a significant issue which needs to be addressed, it has not been.

I would be glad if the witnesses could provide statistics to the committee with regard to the number of drivers from Northern Ireland whose vehicles have been the cause of injuries in this jurisdiction. Equally, I would like to know the number of Southern-registered vehicles found to be the cause of injuries in Northern Ireland. We might then see the two-way process between the two jurisdictions. I would like to know the breakdown of injuries caused by vehicles registered in other EU member states. I look for a database that would enable us to monitor the length of time such vehicles are present in this jurisdiction without drivers making any attempt to get an Irish driving licence. European drivers use right-hand driving instrumentation. We drive on one side of the road and, with the exception of motorists from the United Kingdom, other Europeans drive on the other side. There are serious issues to be addressed before we can know the extent of the problem. Until we know that, we cannot determine the kind of mechanism we need. We are discussing road safety. Will the measures involve a bilateral mechanism with the United Kingdom or a multilateral mechanism, such as the convention on driving disqualification envisaged by the French? Will the British mechanism now being discussed satisfy our needs? The witnesses suggest this will be ready by the end of this year.

The public are greatly annoyed that a person can come from another jurisdiction and park illegally in this one without our having any mechanism to deal with the matter. Such people can park wherever they wish but the poor law-abiding Irish citizen cannot. This area obviously does not relate to safety. However, if a data collection mechanism were available numbers of illegally parked vehicles could be retrieved and the matter could be processed.

Through the PULSE system there is a European arrest warrant whereby gardaí in this jurisdiction co-operate with police forces in other jurisdictions and make arrests. Most of our driving legislation deals with criminal offences and could easily come within this framework. It may be difficult to draw parallels with other jurisdictions that might not have the same approach as we do to offences committed on the road. However, those jurisdictions may have data collection mechanisms superior to ours. If we are to have a European arrest warrant system in operation, with police forces co-operating to deal with all matters of criminal offence, I do not see why the situation we are discussing cannot be integrated into such a mechanism. Why do the witnesses not look into the mechanism already in operation that was put to the Houses of the Oireachtas? A number of other criminal offences have been dealt with in that fashion.

Deputy Damien English

I have only two comments to make as my colleagues have covered most of the ground. I thank the witnesses for their presentation. It really bugs me that we do not yet have a solution to this issue. I have been working in politics for almost ten years and the matter has been talked about for the same length of time. It is unbelievable that we cannot find a solution. The complexity of the situation should not deter us. If we must have constitutional changes, so be it. The matter appears to be put to one side all the time. I do not blame anybody for this but it seems to be the case. British and Irish bodies are discussing it, as are different bodies in many places in Europe but no solution has been found and that is very frustrating. Perhaps the statistics are not very serious and that is the reason the matter has not been pursued. It seems very strange to me that we have not got over the hill with this matter despite all the talk down through the years. The witnesses state that no clear solution has emerged. It is strange there is no such solution when brains from many countries are working on the matter. I am glad it has been clarified that the Minister has responsibility for road safety policy and legislation because I have received many replies to parliamentary questions that I should go and talk to somebody else. I will be raising this issue with the Ceann Comhairle because I always believed road safety was and should be the responsibility of the Minister. I am glad this has been clarified.

In Ireland the problem is that it is deemed to be a criminal offence and that there is a right to a court hearing. How many countries operate a different system? I note that one does not go to court in France. Is this a good idea and one that should be considered here? I presume this is the case with regard to some offences only. Is there something we could change, or is it the case that other countries are wrong? I ask for the delegation's opinion and departmental policy in this regard.

There have been discussions between the United Kingdom and Ireland to find common ground on this issue. Do neighbouring EU countries have working arrangements? Has anybody got this right? If an offence is committed in the Republic of Ireland by a resident or citizen of the United Kingdom, can the offence be dealt with by the UK authorities under their rules when reported back to them? Is this option too simple to be considered? It might be a speedier way of working. I refer to the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, who said we did not want a temporary or unworkable solution but I believe some solution is better than none. Much of the EU legislation debated by the committee often requires tweaking but such legislation is a start. I accept that much of the work done in the European Union involves a change to existing laws. This is not a waste of money if progress is made. It is a pity we have not made a start on this issue, as there is an onus on us all to find a solution.

I echo Deputy Costello's comment about cars imported by new residents. There is a lot of unsubstantiated evidence that such cars are involved in road accidents. The statistics show quite a number are involved in accidents but they also show that they do not cause every crash, a common belief in some places. However, we have not grasped the issue.

Deputy Costello spoke about the state of cars imported; I refer to the driving standards of new residents. The statistics for some of the countries from which new residents come show there is a high number of road accidents. Even in countries with the same population as Ireland there are 700 to 800 road deaths a year, similar to the numbers in Ireland 20 years ago. This is a source of concern for me. It means that the countries in question are lagging behind Ireland in driver education and qualifications. We have a duty to ensure those drivers coming here from countries where driving standards are not as high as here are brought up to standard rapidly. If they wish to drive on our roads, they should be expected to reach our standards of driving. Are new policies being planned in this regard, or is it the case that there is a policy in place but is not being implemented? This is a very serious issue but one which can be easily resolved. Is it a case of introducing new enforcement measures, or will new legislation be required?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

I will try to deal with the various issues raised.

On the question of whether other countries have bilateral or multilateral agreements, our understanding is that under the convention on driver disqualifications, there are no formal agreements as yet. Some countries do have arrangements separate from the convention, for example, the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium.

Chairman

Are they bilateral agreements?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

Yes.

Chairman

Are they operational?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

Yes.

Deputy Damien English

Have they been in operation for a long time?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

They have been in operation for a long period and seem to be working well. Belgium and the Netherlands would have a greater throughput of non-national drivers than Ireland; therefore, they have an incentive to have such agreements.

Deputy Damien English

That is my point. We do not have an incentive.

Chairman

The directive deals with drink driving, a failure to wear a seat belt, a failure to stop at red traffic lights and speeding. It is clear from surveys that all of these generally result in fatalities and are the most common and dangerous offences.

Deputy Damien English

I presume the system used in the Netherlands and Belgium has been looked at as offering a possible solution but, obviously, the matter has not been progressed.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

It has. In terms of the directive, it has been considered on the justice side rather than first pillar side. That is what we favour.

The Deputy has asked what will happen next. In the EU context, it is dependent on the Presidency. I expect the majority of member states will agree that the matter should be followed up through police co-operation measures, not as a means to put it on the long finger but to speed up matters in the most effective way possible.

Deputy Costello referred to non-national drivers in Ireland. Most are from Britain or Northern Ireland. There are regulations covering drivers who come here for a certain period which permit them to drive on their own licence or licence plates. The regulations are enforced by the Garda. In practice, it is very difficult——

Deputy Joe Costello

Nobody knows anything about them. The regulations are not enforced.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

On the NCT, the cars in question are subject to the equivalent test. In Northern Ireland and Britain the equivalent test is the DOT. The number of cars from other countries is comparatively small.

Deputy Joe Costello

May I ask——

Deputy Damien English

From looking around, that does not add up. My question was specifically related to the number of eastern European cars here. What is the position on these cars in terms of the training their drivers have received?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

There are regulations in place. In certain circumstances, one is allowed to keep one's licence. It is incumbent on the Garda to enforce the regulations.

Chairman

What percentage of east Europeans in Ireland have been involved in accidents?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The Garda does not keep statistics indicating nationality or ethnic origin.

Chairman

That is surprising.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

There are considerations such as equality issues and so on.

Deputy Joe Costello

For example, what is the total number of foreign registered cars here?

Chairman

On Deputy Costello's point, there is a huge number of cars from Northern Ireland due to the huge anomaly in the value of sterling, the MOT and DOE test. Some of the cars being imported are substandard and may have been involved in accidents resulting in fatalities. Under a new regulation, cars must undergo an MOT once they cross the Border. Could that be a reason they end up causing fatalities on the roads?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

There is no indication from the Garda to that effect. The Garda has a good deal of information on car registrations. The Road Safety Authority and the Garda are in contact to discuss how the statistics can be improved.

Deputy Joe Costello

Approximately one quarter of the population in my constituency are non-nationals. It is not correct to say it is not a big problem. The cars are not from Northern Ireland or elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It is a big issue. I do not wish to draw attention to the ethnic aspects of this issue but non-nationals operate in a different fashion. They are used to driving on the other side of the road and many appear to drive relatively old cars which have been in Ireland for many years. However, their road worthiness has not been tested and they are not registered or insured in Ireland. Does any unit, in either the Department of Transport or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, deal with such vehicles? I am concerned purely on the grounds of safety. The Garda has a drug squad and various other crime squads. Does any Garda unit or departmental section address or monitor this issue? It is all very well to speak about provisions which should be addressed, but nothing happens in practice. I have tabled numerous questions on this issue and always receive unsatisfactory answers. Until we have this information, how can we deal with a problem involving vehicles from other jurisdictions? It is not sufficient to say the Garda does not keep this type of information. Why not? These are serious problems which need to be addressed. Would a bilateral agreement with the United Kingdom apply to all of the United Kingdom or would there be separate regulations for Northern Ireland? Would the agreement be based on simple geographical borders such as between Belgium and the Netherlands? I would like to have that issue teased out. We need more information. I would like the officials to trawl their Departments and the Garda for information and inform the committee of the extent of the data available.

Chairman

Deputy Costello makes a very good point. Buses and lorries constitute an even greater risk. Would the directive improve the control of non-Irish registered coaches and minibuses? While it faces many problems, it also identifies anomalies in our own law, particularly with regard to minibuses, coaches, lorries and other heavy goods vehicles which operate within the State and are not liable for inspection. Will immediate steps be taken to deal with this lacuna? There is a two-tier system. Non-Irish registered public service vehicles are not subject to control or regulation. I am astonished to learn that this is the case. Is it correct to say we do not even have a record of these vehicles and do not know how many are operating in Ireland?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

A number of issues arise and I will try to outline them. The question of vehicles being used here for a long time but not being registered here is a matter with which the Revenue Commissioners and Customs and Excise would deal. There are particular provisions relating to that.

Chairman

On that point, it seems that a large number of people driving on European licences here do not believe they are doing anything illegal by not changing their licences. Is there any public domain where people could be informed that they are obliged by law to change their licences? The Revenue Commissioners may have a remit in this area, but it is the best kept secret. Has the Department any plans to put into the public domain the information that there is an obligation on anyone with a public service vehicle or a foreign registered car, or are they totally exempt from the NCT?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

I cannot comment on that. The Department of Transport does not have any proposals in that regard because it is a matter for the Revenue Commissioners.

Chairman

One would imagine regarding road safety and life and death issues that, while it is very much within the remit of the Revenue Commissioners, it should be a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Transport to make regulations. Revenue is very much revenue driven and is an income stream for the Department of Finance. However, people are unaware of their obligations. Perhaps, having checked up on this, Mr. Callaghan would inform the committee what plans there are to deal with this huge anomaly.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The Road Safety Authority has a constant stream of advertising campaigns, including campaigns in other languages.

Chairman

I assure Mr. Callaghan that I have yet to see any with regard to public service vehicles, foreign registered cars and heavy goods vehicles. They can operate without any enforcement.

Deputy Damien English

There does not seem to be any policy, apart from revenue chasing, regarding the quality of cars being imported or the quality or standard of driving skills. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

There is a policy. Deputy Costello asked whether there was a unit in the Garda Síochána. There is a traffic corps. If a vehicle is not roadworthy or a driver is breaking the law, the Garda is very conscious that this impacts negatively on safety.

Deputy Damien English

There is a policy to the extent that if somebody is caught doing something wrong the Garda can deal with that. Is there any policy for preventing this in terms of retraining drivers in the rules of driving here as opposed to those in their countries of origin? In terms of the quality of cars, is there any policy of verifying this rather than waiting for a driver to be caught by a member of the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The Garda is not just reactive but very much proactive in terms of what causes the greatest number of deaths and injuries. The Road Safety Authority is very conscious of the need to educate the public, particularly non-national drivers.

Deputy Joe Costello

Is there a campaign to try to get drivers from outside the jurisdiction to undergo the NCT here? Some vehicles have been here for up to ten years and have no NCT certificate. There is no obligation to undergo the test. Nobody seems to be aware it should be done, yet we do not know the quality or roadworthiness of the vehicle. Surely that is a key aspect of road safety.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

There may be EU regulations on testing vehicles.

Chairman

If a person is convicted of speeding, there is an automatic fine but there would not be penalty points, so there is no incentive to change to an Irish licence. People know that four points on their licence will impact on their insurance policy but there is nothing to oblige them to change from a European licence to an Irish one. Does the Department have any indication of the number of foreign licences held in this State?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

There is no way of capturing that information.

Chairman

A person who accumulates points for using a mobile phone or not using a seatbelt might pay a fine but points are not attached to his or her licence.

Deputy Joe Costello

Do the Revenue Commissioners capture information on all the vehicles coming into a country?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

I do not know.

Deputy Joe Costello

Every vehicle that comes in is documented and there must be some mechanism to bring it to the attention of the authorities.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

Not all vehicles are documented. Under certain circumstances one is permitted to have a foreign-registered vehicle here. The Revenue Commissioners can capture the vehicles converted from a foreign to an Irish registration.

Deputy Joe Costello

Can a foreign vehicle come into the country without any record being held?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

In certain circumstances foreign-registered vehicles are allowed into the country. I doubt if the Revenue Commissioners capture information relating to every foreign-registered vehicle in the country.

Deputy Joe Costello

A cross-border convention could not possibly operate unless we were capable of capturing the registration of vehicles coming into the country and setting up a database for the necessary mechanisms.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The convention and the draft directive focus on driver licences rather than vehicles. The information captured relates to what the driver does or does not do.

Chairman

I would appreciate it if the delegation could forward any information on these matters to the committee because we hope to compile a report.

Has the Department any views on the amendments proposed by the European Parliament? It suggests member states carry out random tests for drink driving in places where, and at times when, non-compliance is frequent and where there is an increased risk of accidents. It proposes that at least 30% of drivers should be tested annually. It also encourages the automatic checking of equipment on motorways, secondary roads and urban roads, particularly those sections of road networks where the number of accidents caused by speeding is higher than average. The number of checks using automatic equipment should increase by 30% in member states where the number of fatalities is above the EU average. There should be intensive checking of seat belts for at least six weeks by any member state where less than 70% of the population wear seatbelts. The Parliament's final suggestion concerns the failure to stop at red traffic lights and recommends automatic checking equipment for junctions where rules are often breached and where a higher than average number of accidents occur. Is it important to implement some of the ideas suggested as amendments to the directive? This could be a factor in further reducing the number of fatalities.

Ms Eilish Kennedy

On one side of that issue, the specific targets relate to operational policing matters in individual member states and this can create difficulties around the directive. Mr. Callaghan will say more on this but all national police forces have targets relating to road traffic offences. In Ireland this is done through the traffic bureau and the traffic corps. Random breath testing is an example of something that has been carried out successfully in recent years; it has contributed in no small way to the reduction in the number of fatalities.

Deputy Damien English

I have seen the Garda impounding cars and I know that this approach works. Is there a policy in this regard or does each station proceed separately?

Regarding reasons for the delay, how long has this gone on at a high level? We have discussed the matter at meetings but, among departmental officials and at a European level, how long have we been trying to crack this? I understand what the delegates have said but are some states not making an effort to push this through?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

This directive was introduced less than a year ago.

Deputy Damien English

I accept that, but were there previous attempts to find common ground on this or is the directive the beginning?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

The convention on the recognition of driver disqualifications was an earlier initiative in the area of cross-border co-operation on specific road traffic offences. The focus there was on identifying offences that contribute to most fatalities across Europe. The idea was that when disqualification is earned from such an offence it will be attached to that driver's record in his or her country. That would seem a very effective way to address many of the issues raised by the Deputies today. The more one can associate the issue with the driver's record in his or her country the better, and this was the line that convention took.

Deputy Joe Costello

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Transport are doing great work and are making solid progress. However, the issues of the driver's record and the quality of the vehicle must be combined. The driver may or may not have committed offences in another country but if the vehicle is not roadworthy there are serious problems. If certain standards must apply to Irish drivers, then drivers from elsewhere in the EU should meet standards that ensure their vehicles are safe for Irish roads. I do not think this issue has been dealt with.

Can the witnesses supply the committee with a draft copy of the bilateral arrangements made with the UK before they are finalised?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

We are still in the process of finalising those arrangements and are discussing them with our UK colleagues; they are not yet at the stage referred to by the Deputy. If it is of interest to the committee we can make a copy of the convention available. The agreement with the UK is the administrative arrangement of how the convention will operate between Ireland and the UK. The arrangements will be made between the Road Safety Authority, which captures much of the information on penalty points, the Department's national vehicle and driver file, the Courts Service, from which disqualifications emanate and the UK equivalent. It is quite a straightforward arrangement.

Deputy Damien English

Can we have data on bilateral agreements from countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium? This could be very useful.

Chairman

That was a very frank discussion. If we could get the specific data, it would be very much appreciated given that we hope to compile a report on this issue. In the absence of this coming through, how does Ms Kennedy believe the objectives of her Department can be improved with regard to the real concerns about anomalies that exist? Can we do anything within Irish law that will enhance road safety to an even greater degree? Given the whole context of the debate, will there be any learning curves from this which would be of benefit to us?

Ms Eilish Kennedy

The road safety strategy is the core of the direction we are going for the next few years overall. As we see it, the convention on mutual disqualification is a very important step with our UK colleagues. We will learn much from this as to how these kinds of cross-border arrangements and co-operation in various degrees can work. We would see it as a first step. We cannot be more specific on what will evolve from it.

Chairman

Deputy Costello referred to young people buying cheap cars in Northern Ireland which are not up to MOT standard and which can end up being involved in fatalities. Although one gets an opportunity to buy a cheaper vehicle, it could end in tragedy. Given the fabulous NCT facilities throughout the State, one would imagine that such cars could be inspected and curtailed. This action at inspectorate level would do a huge service towards the elimination of tragedy on the roads. It could easily be introduced and it is certainly something we will recommend.

If no other member is offering, I thank the witnesses for attending to assist the committee in scrutinising this important proposal. We will prepare a report on the proposal, which will be sent to the Minister and laid before the House. If the witnesses can add anything to the report, it would be appreciated. As Deputy Costello correctly stated, we recognise the huge work being done and this is reflected in the level of due diligence and cross-examination on the questions we feel are of concern.

The most notable concerns of the Department focus on the EU directive. Deputy English referred to the cross-border link with the UK and Northern Ireland, which carries the greatest level of cross-border traffic. If we can improve upon that in the short term, it will be very much welcome. We are anxious to get specific data on the concerns raised here today. We will send our report to the witnesses for observations before we sign off on it to ensure it is correct. We hope the report will eventually be debated in the Dáil Chamber. I thank the witnesses for attending.

The next committee meeting will be on Tuesday, 10 March, when it is intended to scrutinise a proposal on VAT fraud. The following meeting will be on 24 March, when we will meet the delegation from the Irish representative of the EU Committee of the Regions.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 10 March 2009.