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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN SCRUTINY debate -
Thursday, 2 Dec 2010

Consumer Rights Directive: Discussion with Consumers Association of Ireland

The final item on the agenda is a discussion with representatives of the Consumers Association of Ireland on a directive on consumer rights. I welcome Mr. James Doorley, chairman, and Mr. Dermott Jewell, chief executive officer.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

We will have a short presentation which will be followed by questions from members. I am sure members will have a number of questions on various aspects of their concerns. I invite Mr. James Doorley to proceed with the presentation, to be followed by Mr. Dermott Jewell.

Mr. James Doorley

On behalf of the Consumers Association of Ireland we welcome the opportunity to speak to the committee concerning the proposed EU consumer rights directive. Irish consumers engage in millions of consumer contracts every day, some as normal and frequent as buying food in a local shop to significant and infrequent purchases of goods and services, such as kitchen appliances, furniture, a car or a range of other contracts. In the vast majority of cases, there is no problem, but we all have had personal experiences and, as an association, we hear every day of examples where things go wrong and consumers are faced with difficulties and problems and need strong consumer laws to help them get what they paid for or, where that is not possible, to get their hard earned money refunded.

Legislators across the world have long recognised that "caveat emptor” is not sufficient to protect consumers and, as the weaker party in almost all contracts, they need legal protection, a fact recognised in this part of the world as far back as 1893 with the enactment of the Sale of Goods Act of that year. That legislation was revised by the Oireachtas with the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 and enhanced in more recent legislation such as the Consumer Protection Act 2007. This legislation and some existing EU directives give Irish consumers good protection in consumer contracts. That is not to say that everything is perfect and while Irish consumers have in general satisfactory consumer rights, they face difficulties with having those rights applied and enforced. The reality is that Irish consumers encounter some traders and businesses who seek to deny them their legal rights and in some cases the existing means of redress are too costly, slow and ineffective. However that is a debate for another day. As an association we value and want to retain the existing legal rights of consumers in Ireland.

We acknowledge the contribution of the European Union in the area of consumer protection and state that in our view the proposed consumer rights directive contains a number of provisions which are positive for consumers such as the extension of the right of withdrawal, the cooling off period for distance contracts and off premises contracts in Ireland from seven days to 14 days and greater pre-contractual information. Overall, our view is that the proposed directive is flawed and, without significant redrafting, will undermine the existing rights that consumers in Ireland enjoy. We also believe the proposal is contrary to the principle of subsidiarity and unfairly shifts the balance away from the consumer and in favour of the trader.

The proposed directive on consumer rights was published in October 2008 and aims to revise and merge a range of existing directives in areas such as unfair contract terms, consumer sales and guarantees, distance contracts - internet, mail order, telephone - and contracts negotiated away from the business premises such as doorstep selling. The original proposal contained provisions for full harmonisation of consumer law in all aspects. The reality of full harmonisation of consumer law is that the rights of Irish consumers would be reduced. The Commission states that its aim is to strike the right balance between a high level of consumer protection and the competitiveness of enterprises, while ensuring respect for the principle of subsidiarity. The directive does not achieve that balance.

This is not just our view, it is one that is shared by consumer organisations across Europe, BEUC the European consumer organisation, many member state Governments and a large number of MEPs in the European Parliament and political institutions in other member states such as the French Senate. We want to acknowledge that the Irish Government at political and official level also shares some of our concerns. We thank members of the Oireachtas who have raised concerns in Oireachtas debates and through Dáil questions.

The major flaws in the directive are evident in that even now the Commission has indicated that it is willing to move away from the concept of full harmonisation to targeted harmonisation. We also know that members of the European Parliament have tabled almost 2,000 amendments which is a significant number. That indicates that across the political spectrum there is a level of discontent with what is on the table. While many of the proposed amendments are positive, not all are and there is a danger that in the horse trading hard won Irish rights could be lost in a political compromise. Therefore, it is important that the Government and the Oireachtas keeps a close eye on the legislation as it progresses through the EU legislative process.

The first major issue is one of subsidiarity which we believe must be a matter of concern for this committee. The EU Commission is breaching the principle of subsidiarity by proposing full harmonisation in the area of consumer rights. Article 4 of the directive states that:"member states may not maintain or introduce, in their national law, provisions diverging from those laid down in this Directive, including more or less stringent provisions to ensure a different level of consumer protection."

The European Commission appears obsessed with the internal market and furthering cross border trade at all costs. The EU Commission is seeking to undermine important consumer protection rights enacted by the Oireachtas on the unproven premise that it will increase cross border trade. We have no difficulty with traders and businesses operating across borders and many Irish companies are already selling into EU markets. Likewise Irish consumers are buying goods and services in other member states; we are all familiar with the phenomenon of cross border trade on this island. From a consumer point of view it brings further competition and choice and helps to reduce prices. However, the EU Commission has not produced any evidence to suggest that harmonising consumer protection laws across Europe will entice Irish consumers to start buying products in Greece, Finland and other EU member states. Likewise it has produced no evidence to suggest that businesses in Ireland or elsewhere are reluctant to trade in other member states because of different consumer laws. A special EU Barometer report on consumer protection in the internal market found that the key reasons consumers did not buy in other member states related to the fact that they wanted to physically visit a shop or business premises, or were concerned about difficulties with deliveries, the problem of returning items if faulty, lack of trust and concerns about fraud and language difference, for example, if people do not have French, German or other languages and cannot converse with the trader.

That study found that 66% of Irish consumers stated that it will be harder to deal with returns, complaints, price reduction and guarantees in another member state compared with Ireland. The imposition of uniform EU laws which reduce consumer rights here are more likely to depress consumer confidence in cross border trading than to enhance it. Even if this directive is approved, businesses will still be required to adhere to different company laws, tax, VAT and employment laws in the member states in which they wish to trade. There are still many other issues with which they will have to deal and we do not think the change will make a huge difference. In summary, the impact on cross border trade will be minimal; however the negative impact on consumer rights in all the consumer contracts they engage in here at home and in other member states will be negative and will be significant.

The key point for Ireland is that if full harmonisation is adopted, the Oireachtas will effectively lose its right to legislate in the consumer protection area to deal with future consumer needs and market conditions. The Oireachtas must retain its right to legislate above and beyond the provisions in the directive and EU law. As of now many of the directives have the principle of minimum harmonisation where national parliaments are allowed to legislate above what is already in place. Essentially we want a floor under which the rights of consumers will not go below, but we do not want a ceiling which will weaken existing and hard won rights and restrict the Oireachtas from enacting legislation to protect consumers in future.

One of the compromises on the table, from a report of a German parliamentarian, Schwab, is that instead of full harmonisation, member states could pass laws going beyond the provisions of the directive, but that these would be subject to evaluation and approval by the EU Commission every three years. That would be full harmonisation by the back door and would create uncertainty as laws passed here could be later struck down by the European Court of Justice. The proposal for full harmonisation or even the compromise on the table in the European Parliament must be rejected.

I will now hand over to my colleague, Mr. Dermott Jewell, chief executive of the Consumers Association of Ireland, who will deal with some of the specific issues in the directive that are of concern to us.

Mr. Dermott Jewell

As outlined, we have a number of concerns in regard to the proposal and want to bring some focus and clarity to four of those specific issues and highlight the differentials that would be presented to consumers in Ireland. The first proposal has the potential to reduce the liability for faulty goods and service from six to two years. This is particularly significant because it is contained in Chapter IV of the directive. While we currently enjoy a six-year limit for contractual claims under Irish law, the goal is to reduce that significantly to two years.

This would have a serious impact on consumers when purchasing high value items such as cars and household goods. Take for example a person buying a car. It is suggested that the liability of the manufacturer would end after two years, even if there was a fault in the vehicle which emerged after that date. The only parties that benefit from this reduction in the right of consumers to seek redress when goods are faulty are the multinational manufacturers across Europe. We must retain the existing legal rights of Irish consumers, so it is vital that Ireland rejects proposals for full harmonisation in this area. We must be clear, and there is no question that in respect of these changes they will certainly lead to the worst case scenario, where some manufacturers would reduce the quality of their products as they will be aware that their liability will be extinguished after two years.

The second proposal is that we would lose the right to reject. This goes to the heart of the protection that consumers enjoy under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980. The proposed maximum harmonisation will undermine the position of consumers when they are trying to seek a resolution. This is critically important, as we know from our work that the vast majority of complaints about faulty goods and poor services are as a result of those faulty goods. At present, under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980, Irish consumers have the right to reject goods which are not of merchantable quality or are not fit for their purpose or are not as described. As currently drafted, the directive would remove that right to reject and allow the trader or business to decide what redress to offer the consumer and in the first instance and could offer only a repair or replacement. The proposal that consumers could have their money back would go. We suffered that dilemma in Ireland with quite a number of the mobile telephone companies, where they insist that a refund is only possible for a short period but thereafter the consumer must submit the mobile telephone for repair, not just once but three times. From our records we can say that Irish consumers find that most unpleasant and highly unacceptable. It is a waste of money and a breach of contractual rights. Each case is different and consumers may be willing to accept a repair, a replacement or a reduced price, but they should be able to choose. That is where consumer choice is key to the legislative presentations that we have. We believe this would be abused by some businesses and traders as they would continue to force consumers to send goods back for repair long after it was clear the product must be replaced or the consumer refunded.

There are many circumstances where an offer by a trader to repair the product or replace it is totally unsatisfactory from a consumer point of view. Let me give an example. A number of years ago we had a case where a consumer had bought an expensive cooker. Shortly after buying the product the glass door on the oven exploded and shattered all over her kitchen. It caused quite a degree of damage and concern. The door was replaced and the same thing happened again. At that stage the consumer had lost confidence in the brand and as far as she was concerned repairing or replacing the cooker was entirely unacceptable. She wanted her money back so that she could buy another brand of cooker. She explained it by saying that every time she turned on the oven she was fearful that the door would break again. This is a clear example of where the consumer should be entitled to terminate the contract and receive his or her money back. The same situation is currently in existence in relation to cars and we need to see that changed very significantly. Under this directive, the consumer may well have to accept what is offered and be required to send back the goods to a trader and then have to wait until the goods are repaired or replaced, in some cases many times. We believe the changes in the proposed directive will likely be abused by some businesses to fob off and frustrate consumers in the hope they will give up or that their liability will expire with the shortened two year timeframe.

The third proposal is to place an onus on the consumer to inform the trader of a fault. This is a rather curious new provision, as it puts an onus on the consumer "to inform the trader of the lack of conformity within two months from the date on which he detected the lack of conformity". Now this might seem reasonable but the reality is that it does not take into account the fact that consumers may only use certain goods on a periodic basis. It also fails to take into account that when they first buy a product, with which they are unfamiliar, they may not be able to distinguish between their lack of knowledge and a fault. In addition, it is common that when consumers detect a problem, but it is not initially a very serious one, they trust or hope it will rectify itself. Take for example a person buying a lawnmower. He or she buys it in June and it works fine all summer until October when it does not seem to be working as well. They use it again the following April and it is now clear there is a fault. They take it back to the shop and when they tell the trader they had some suspicions back in October, they are told they have lost their rights because they should have informed the trader about the defect in October and not now. The result of this change in the law may encourage consumers to return goods to traders if they have any inkling that something may be wrong even when nothing is wrong but because they fear losing their rights. This could be a negative for both sides of trading. The unpalatable and likely scenario is that this could also be used by certain businesses and traders who will attempt to abdicate their responsibility by claiming faults were long outstanding and because they were not informed in time, they could no longer be held responsible.

The fourth and final issue we wish to raise is the absence of protection for digital products in the proposal. I would like to briefly mention an important and surprising absence from the directive, namely, the failure to include protection for consumers when buying digital products. The purchase of digital goods such as software, music, games, ringtones, etc, that transfers the ownership to consumers, allowing them to use the "goods" on a permanent basis, in a similar way as they acquire the property of a book, a CD or DVD, should be fully covered by the provisions of the proposal and, in particular, by the rules on legal guarantees. In our view consumers need protection when buying digital goods and we cannot understand why this has been omitted. The definition of "goods" as tangible items in the directive, although appropriate in the offline world, no longer reflects the needs of consumers in the digital era, where more and more goods are purchased or downloaded in an intangible, digital format. The format in which a product is presented or purchased should not matter in terms of consumer protection and consumers should be equally protected online and offline. It is incomprehensible as to why new legislation aimed specifically at updating and modernising consumer law, does not even provide for the most obvious needs of modern consumers in this field.

We believe this proposal needs to be radically revised and redrafted if the existing rights of Parliament and the rights of Irish consumers are to be maintained. We do not think that Members of the Oireachtas should lightly give up their right to address and legislate for consumer matters which may arise in the future and which no one can foresee. The impact of the legal changes in the directive may not become apparent to consumers overnight, but if passed they will shift the balance in favour of traders and businesses and make it much more difficult for consumers to seek adequate and fair redress when things go wrong. Things will go wrong. Over time this will also become apparent when consumers take cases to the Small Claims Court and through other court procedures and we expect they will be asking their political representatives how this could come about. We have no doubt the media or ordinary citizens will be asking why did this happen and why did we agree to it. However, as we all know, complaining about this directive if it is passed and being implemented in a few years time will be of little use.

Now is the time to seek amendments and changes to the directive, now is the time to ensure that the rights of Irish consumers are upheld and not diminished. We urge you to support our call for the directive to be revised and to make this view known to the European Commission, the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. We thank members for their time and attention. My colleague and I are more than happy to take questions.

I thank Mr. Jewell and Mr. Doorley for their interesting presentations. Mr. Doorley stated that the imposition of these laws would depress consumer confidence rather than enhance it. Would the almost 2,000 amendments from Members of the European Parliament address his concerns about strengthening the draft directive?

Does Deputy Mulcahy want to ask a question?

The witness may answer that question first.

Mr. James Doorley

We are working with the BEUC, the European consumers union, and there are 2,000 amendments, some 1,600 of which come from one committee and 400 from another committee. There are some amendments which will undo some of the damaging impacts of the directive, particular in respect of full harmonisation. Some elements of the directive would be okay if we did not have full harmonisation, particularly in certain chapters of the directive. There are other amendments in the proposals from the European Parliament that would actually make things worse, our concern is that the European Parliament must go through all the amendments and come up with some sort of proposal. Obviously the Government member of the Council of Ministers will have an opportunity to comment and negotiate with the Parliament. We are concerned that the Parliament is required to deal with this in the spring. Trying to deal with 2,000 amendments is very complex and difficult and one could end up with a result that one did not expect because something passed when people misunderstood what they were voting for because of the amount of paperwork in front of them. This is of concern and that is the reason we want to focus on the four key issues. We will alert Irish MEPs on the key things which the Consumers Association of Ireland would like highlighted and raised in their political groups.

We do not know if the amendments tabled will strengthen the directive. If some of the proposed amendments are passed, things will improve, but the key point for the Government is to take a stance, which in fairness I think it has already done. A review by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation has stated clearly that the Department has a major issue with full harmonisation. It accepts the point that Irish consumer rights will be diminished with full harmonisation. We have proposed legislative changes in areas such as gift vouchers, which is a very common issue and many people are buying gift vouchers for Christmas. There are some traders who have very good conditions but there are traders who use the opportunity to get people to buy gift vouchers and then impose very stringent rules, such as that it must be used within three months and that an administration charge applies. If this directive went through, we could not pass a law in the Oireachtas on gift vouchers because we would be going beyond the provisions and trying to do something which went beyond EU legislation. The European Parliament has a role to play, but as of now I cannot say because it depends on the amendments that will be passed. However, we think the Government has an important role to play when it comes to the Council of Ministers. We hope the Government will stick to the line that full harmonisation is a step too far at this stage. It will not do anything for consumer confidence. All the studies across Europe and Ireland show that businesses are not crying out for this. This is the work of the Commission. We accept the Single Market-Internal Market is important but the Commission is latching on to this as some sort of panacea, when I do not think it is.

I thank the two representatives from the Consumers Association of Ireland for attending. Their appearance is fortuitous but the timing is a little unfortunate. It is fortuitous because this is important law that will impact on all our citizens in a real way. This is a real interface between consumers,voters and citizens and the European Union. There is nothing as annoying as when a consumer is shabbily or roughly treated by a large commercial organisation. We must pay attention to this.

Whatever happens in the new year, there will be a new Government and a new Minister with responsibility for consumer affairs. For that reason, I think this should be brought up again early in the next Dáil. I would like to the see the new Minister and MEPs come before the committee, as they are the people we must lobby on this. They are the people who must be lobbied. I am sure the CAI has made representations to both of those, but there should be a meeting between the Consumers Association of Ireland, members of this committee, the Minister and the MEPs. This should be put on the agenda for the new Dáil.

I propose that the committee seek an opinion from the parliamentary legal adviser as to whether the directive, as drafted, is in breach of the subsidiarity principle. We have a red and yellow flag procedure, perhaps some of our fellow members of the 26 other parliaments are concerned about this and if they are, we as a scrutiny committee should know or we should contemplate writing to the other parliaments and asking them if they are concerned about it and if they would be interested in waving a flag of whatever colour is deemed necessary.

As this is a matter of law, I stress the committee should get a legal opinion on whether it fails the subsidiarity test. I do not wish to comment further on the paper, except it highlights some very serious issues. I would be very concerned that a six year limitation period would be replaced by a two year limitation period. That would send a shock wave across the bough of every single consumer in the country. If that is all that gets highlighted today, we have done a job that is worth doing. I look forward to being here again in three or four months time to highlight this issue.

Does Mr. Jewell wish to respond?

Mr. Dermott Jewell

We are very appreciative of the comments made by the Deputy on this important issue. It has taken so long to make progress and it has gone through so much change, it has become a very frustrating exercise, to the point where we are almost there but it is more frustrating now because of the potential changes and the damage that could be done. It is great to hear that level of feedback and we would be pleased to meet again on this issue.

Deputy Mulcahy mentioned the pros and cons of having this meeting at this time with only a few months remaining in the life of this Dáil. However, Christmas is coming and it is very important to talk about consumers' rights in the lead up to Christmas. We will take on board Deputy Mulcahy's suggestion of engaging the parliamentary legal adviser. We will invite the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation to a meeting to discuss the proposals.

The committee will prepare a report on the directive and we will forward it to the Consumers Association of Ireland when the committee meets and agrees on it. I thank the witnesses for their presentation and for answering our questions.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 16 December 2010.
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