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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 2022

European Union Response to the War in Ukraine: Discussion

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Byrne, go dtí an cruinniú. Cuirim fáilte roimh a chomhghleacaí, Orla McBreen, fosta. Táimid ag dúil go mór leis an díospóireacht. Tá athrú mór anseo i gcomparáid le haon am eile a raibh an tAire Stáit anseo. Tá athrú mór ag dul ar aghaidh níos cóngaire dúinn fosta. Ar son an choiste, aithním oifigigh na Roinne fáchoinne na hoibre atá ag bogadh ar aghaidh. Tá muidne fíor-bhuíoch as an taispeántas agus as an chomhrá inné. Iarraim ar an Aire Stáit leanúint ar aghaidh lena ráiteas tosaigh.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an gcoiste as an-----

Tá brón orm. I thought I would get out of the note on privilege. I will read it out as Gaeilge in future. I will get clarification on that because I do not think anybody is listening to it as Béarla. Maybe if I read it out in Irish, more people would listen to it.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I would like to remind members of the constitutional requirements that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any members who attempt to participate from outside the precinct will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I would ask that any member partaking by Microsoft Teams, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste as an gcuireadh teacht anseo chun comhrá ginearálta a bheith againn agus chun na nithe a thagann amach as Comhairle na hEorpa maidir leis an bhfreagracht atá ag an Aontas Eorpach as an gcogadh san Úcráin a phlé. Tosóidh mé an plé leis an suíomh mar atá sé maidir leis an Úcráin agus maidir leis an Aontas Eorpach agus mo ghníomhaíochtaí ag Comhairle na hEorpa.

I am joined today by Ms Orla McBreen, of the Department's European Union division. I am fully aware that I did not attend the European Council last week because I was a close contact of quite a number of people before I went and was concerned that I might test positive or develop symptoms while abroad. However, I was at the General Affairs Council, which prepares the European Council.

I am very glad to have the opportunity to engage with committee members today regarding supporting Ukraine. We now find ourselves nearly five weeks into the conflict. The situation is of huge concern. There are dire and unimaginable human consequences arising out of this illegal, unprovoked and unjustifiable large-scale invasion and war on Ukraine. What we are seeing is, quite simply, incredible, except that we see it with our own eyes.

Ireland’s support for Ukraine is unwavering. As the Taoiseach said in his conversation with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, this reflects our close co-operation and support. I know we are all looking forward to hearing from President Zelenskyy next week and I thank the Ceann Comhairle for inviting him to address both Houses of the Oireachtas, which is a singular honour and responsibility for us in our response to the situation.

At this point it is worth recalling that Irish relations with Ukraine had started to develop last year to a greater degree than previously with the opening of our embassy. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Simon Coveney, visited Kyiv last summer to open the embassy and establish a diplomatic presence. There was great interest and excitement within the Department and diplomatic community about this engagement and increasing engagement with Ukraine. I had conversations with Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dmytro Kuleba, in December. Even by then, there was huge concern as to what was about to unfold.

The focus of the engagement with the committee today will be what can be done to support Ukraine in an EU context, but of course it is also worth mentioning the United Nations. Since the early days of the conflict, Ireland has been active and vocal in our support for Ukraine on the Security Council and in General Assembly meetings. We have urged others to join us in condemning Russia’s illegal, unprovoked and unjustified invasion and war in Ukraine, and we call on Russia to immediately withdraw its forces from the entire territory of Ukraine and to implement an immediate ceasefire. At this point, it might be worth remembering our ambassador and deputy permanent representative, Mr. Jim Kelly, who died suddenly and was to the fore in many engagements at the Security Council.

Turning now to the EU, Ireland fully supports Ukraine's application for EU membership, which was made clear by the Taoiseach and has been gratefully received in Ukraine and many EU nations. EU leaders acted quickly earlier this month and invited the European Commission to submit an opinion on Ukraine's application to become a member. Even this procedure has been fast-tracked. EU leaders reiterated that at the European Council last week. Ireland has come together with a grouping of other member states that are similarly strongly supportive of Ukraine’s application, with a view to providing political and practical assistance to support Ukraine’s European perspective.

In terms of funding, Ireland has contributed in full to the European Peace Facility’s €1 billion military assistance package for Ukraine. Our total share, which is pro rata, is €22 million, will go towards non-lethal elements. The EU has also agreed to provide an emergency macro-financial assistance operation of €1.2 billion in the form of loans to foster stability in Ukraine. This is already being disbursed.

Ireland is supportive of the widest possible sanctions on Russia and Belarus, including on the energy sector, as a concrete demonstration of our solidarity with Ukraine and to maintain the strongest possible pressure on the Kremlin. We are, of course, mindful of the need to maintain European unity. The unity and determination of the EU took Russia by surprise and we must continue to hold a united and firm line on this. I am pleased that we are doing that. We and other member states have asked the European Commission to produce an impact assessment, looking at the effects of all the sanctions introduced to date on Russia and the EU.

On a humanitarian level, Ireland has responded quickly to the unfolding humanitarian crisis in Ukraine. An initial humanitarian package of €10 million announced by the Taoiseach on the day of the invasion has since been doubled to €20 million. The humanitarian package of Irish Aid funding has been channelled to the UN, the Red Cross and civil society in general as they deliver life-saving help to Ukrainians affected by the conflict. Some €5 million of this funding will support UNHCR’s refugee response, while a further €6 million has been allocated to the Red Cross to support the critical role it is playing. The International Committee of the Red Cross operates in active conflict areas, negotiating humanitarian access and safe passage, repairing critical infrastructure and ensuring the availability of life-saving care. Of our funding, €4 million will allow UNICEF, WHO and UNFPA to protect and provide vital medical care to vulnerable groups, whether they choose to leave or remain in their country.

Irish NGOs are also mobilising and partnering with local NGOs in the region. Irish Aid will also support their efforts through a dedicated fund of €2 million launched by the Minister of State, Deputy Colm Brophy, last week. The EU, through the European Commission, has also made €550 million in emergency and humanitarian assistance available. The EU civil protection mechanism has also delivered almost €300 million worth of in-kind assistance.

We are encouraging all our partners, including UN agencies and the UN Central Emergency Response Fund, CERF, to mobilise the resources we provide by way of core funding to respond to the crisis in Ukraine and support host countries. CERF has provided more than €55 million to date, and Ireland is the tenth largest donor.

I will now touch on the recent General Affairs Council and the European Council, on which I am more than happy to answer questions. I represented Ireland at a meeting of the General Affairs Council in Brussels last week. Our main item of discussion was preparation for the European Council meeting of 24 and 25 March. Other topics discussed included the revision of a regulation on the statute and funding of European political parties and foundations, the Conference on the Future of Europe, the European semester process for 2022 and an update on proposals for a regulation on the adoption of unilateral enforcement measures under the EU-UK withdrawal agreement.

At the European Council meeting, the main item of discussion was the situation in Ukraine. Constructive discussions were held with US President Biden, in attendance physically, and the Ukrainian President, Mr. Zelenskyy, present online. Leaders discussed Russia's military aggression against Ukraine, including the safety of the civilian population, help for refugees and support to the Ukrainian Government, and set out a number of conclusions that reiterated our support for Ukraine.

The European Council endorsed the strategic compass as part of its focus on security and defence issues. Leaders also had a lengthy discussion on options to mitigate the impact of energy price increases. On economic issues, leaders called for work to be taken forward on building a more robust economic base and reaffirmed the importance of realising the full potential of the Single Market. As for external relations, preparation was made for the EU-China Summit, which takes place this week. The political crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina was also discussed.

Bheinn sásta ceisteanna a thógáil ó bhaill an choiste.

I appreciate the update. I know that many other wider EU matters were addressed at the General Affairs Council and the European Council, but I think we are all agreed that the biggest issue impacting all of Europe, particularly the EU, at present is Russia's ongoing brutal war in Ukraine. At what stage does the EU think it will be in a position to evaluate the impact sanctions have had on Russia and whether they are playing as major a role as perhaps had been expected? I appreciate that it might be a little premature to get a fair idea of that, but was it discussed?

As for Ukraine's accession to the EU, while the Minister of State mentioned Ireland's support alongside that of other member states, the question is what tangible support measures can be given. The committee had a lengthy discussion with the Ukrainian ambassador a fortnight ago as to how Ukraine can achieve the Copenhagen criteria and the supports it would need in peacetime, let alone when the country is being bombed from a height by Russia. In that regard, the Minister of State mentioned that Ireland is contributing a considerable amount to the European package, but we have decided not to contribute to the purchase of lethal or military equipment or aid. Is that sustainable in the long term, particularly when it comes to the notion of solidarity within the European Union? At some stage will other states in the European Union as well as the Ukrainian Government look to Ireland and think we are helping only 99% and that we could go further?

Finally, while welcoming the expulsion yesterday of four Russian diplomats from the Russian Embassy, on Orwell Road, in my constituency, I hope those will be the first of many expulsions. What plans may the Government have taken already to expel the Russian ambassador? That is long overdue. I fully accept the reasons the Taoiseach has given for the expulsion of those four diplomats, but I think many of us have been calling for the expulsion of many more. We see that other EU member states have expelled diplomats in much greater numbers from their Russian embassies.

As for the impact of sanctions, the Government's position has always been that Ireland supports the widest possible sanctions on Russia, and indeed on Belarus, including sanctions on energy. There is now a wide commitment to eliminate our dependence on certain energy sources, particularly oil. Sanctions in that case have been implemented really quickly. The first few rounds of sanctions were done over a few days; that normally takes months. A lot of work has been ongoing for a considerable period between the European Union and the United States in particular, working together. A lot of technical work has to go on in respect of sanctions to get the correct names of companies etc. Obviously, it all has to be legally watertight. With other EU member states, we have asked the Commission to produce an impact assessment of the effect of sanctions not only on Russia but also on us. There are questions and answers on the Commission's website, which will help companies understand their obligations. The Commission will publish further information in due course. There will be ongoing discussions on the mitigation of the effect of sanctions on EU member states to help preserve our unity because it is a fact that some countries are worse affected than others by the sanctions. Some member states have significant trading relationships with Russia. Things have changed, however. I was talking to one colleague from one country - I will not say which country - that has a significant trading relationship with Russia. Before Christmas, the country was very worried about sanctions in respect of the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, SWIFT. Someone said to me that such sanctions would be the country's Brexit, such is SWIFT's impact there, if they were to go ahead. After Christmas, however, and in the run-up to the war, that attitude had changed completely because people realised there was a very important moral principle at stake and a very important reality that if serious action were not taken, this could continue. Therefore, I think there has been a change of focus in that some of these measures are viewed as simply necessary.

As for support for Ukraine's accession to the EU and measures needed to join the European Union, the most important thing we could have done in recent weeks was to send a signal of support and not a signal that could end in disappointment in Ukraine. It was therefore really important for European leaders to have made the statement they made. The Taoiseach was one of the first to voice support for EU membership for Ukraine. If there were any ifs or buts to that, I think it would have sent a really negative message into Ukraine and maybe disheartened people because that is what they are fighting for. We therefore thought it very important to state that we support absolutely Ukraine's accession. That is long-standing Irish foreign policy and European policy. The practicalities of that take a little time. It will not happen overnight. However, the Commission has now been asked in double-quick time to provide an assessment in respect of various countries, Ukraine in particular, of the applicant states' preparedness for accession. Obviously, as Deputy Richmond mentioned, there are criteria in that regard. The process takes time. In the past it has taken years. I do not think it will take that long in this case. I maintain that the most important thing is that that positive signal is sent and that people are positive about this. The people of Ukraine are part of the European family. They are one of us. They need and want to be in the European Union, and we certainly will not stand in their way. In fairness to Ukraine, over time it had already made progress before the war on aligning with EU standards, and it is defending European Union values at the moment. We will continue to support that and we will work as closely as possible but, obviously, the immediate priority is the humanitarian situation there and to try to get this war ended.

As for the European peace facility, it is not for me to answer the question of whether our position is sustainable. That is for other observers to analyse and see whether we are right or wrong. Even to have joined the European peace facility was a major step for the Irish Government. Before this happened, some people would have questioned whether we would have vetoed this. Of course, no Irish Government ever would in this context - let us be absolutely clear on that. It was a very big step for us to take. Even though we are providing non-lethal equipment to try to be true to our tradition of military neutrality and not being a part of military alliances, the help we are providing through the European peace facility is exactly pro rata with that provided by every other country. We are also providing the defensive equipment Ukrainians need. It has been a major step and a major help and has been acknowledged as such. Whether that will change in the future is ultimately a matter for the Irish people. We will leave it with the people in due course and will continue to give the practical help we are giving at present.

As for the Russian officials, each country has taken an independent decision as to what to do in this case. The Government is advised by the Garda and the Defence Forces, and there is co-ordination and sharing of information around the European Union. That is obvious. We have taken a proportionate and appropriate decision, which has to be legally watertight under international law and the Vienna Convention.

Clearly, there were huge concerns with these particular individuals. As I understand it, no government in the EU has expelled an ambassador. It may happen in the future; I cannot predict these things. It is considered that there is value in keeping lines of communication open, however flawed those lines of communication are, let us be honest. The ambassador has not exactly given us much to go on in the past few months in making commitments that simply were not factual. We have to maintain our presence in Moscow as well. There are Irish citizens in Russia and they need help and support. We also have interests to protect. We have taken the decision. It is a difficult balance to strike. Early on, when this first became an issue, as a Government, we said we would rather do things in co-ordination with other EU member states. That is what has happened. It does have more impact. It certainly makes a bigger splash. I am glad there has not been criticism of the move to expel Russian diplomats, whereas there was in 2018, when we were accused of breaching neutrality. The country has come a bit of a way since then. It was the right decision. These are difficult balancing acts; there is nothing easy in any of this. The decision taken yesterday was balanced, proportionate and within the law.

I have a few quick questions and will follow up on some of the points made by my colleagues. Regarding the impact of sanctions, Commissioner McGuinness said some time ago that the sanctions were having a crippling effect and the Russian economy was close to collapse. We saw a 30% fall in the rouble and the protracted closure of the stock exchange. I am interested in the Minister of State's assessment of the real impact. Are the sanctions that have been put in place to date having that type of impact, or was the Commissioner's statement a little bit of hyperbole in terms of talking about the Russian economy being close to collapse without impacting on oil and gas payments?

My second question relates to the issue of the diplomats. For a long time, there were very reliable security briefings for Government regarding the activities of a hugely disproportionate number of diplomats that are in Ireland for a country of our size. I certainly welcome the action that was taken yesterday. The Minister of State talked about it being a proportionate action, almost linked to taking a cross-European expulsion action in respect of Ukraine alone. I am asking a more fundamental question. Is it time, now, that we look at why a country of our size has 33 diplomats registered, given the security information we have that many of them are not complying with the diplomatic requirements under the Vienna Convention? Is it the appropriate time to actually determine that the scale of the embassy representation in Ireland should be proportionate to the genuine expectation of diplomatic relations between our countries?

My final question relates to humanitarian aid. I warmly welcome the explanation that the Minister of State has given for the €20 million of humanitarian relief that has been channelled through the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, the International Committee of the Red Cross and the World Food Programme. My question is one that I am trying to develop a view on. One of the things we want to do is to signal to countries that look to Europe for support and are being drawn, as it were, into the orbit of Russia, that we want to support the core activities of those governments. I am thinking, in particular, of Moldova, which is very vulnerable. It is surrounded, obviously, by Ukraine. Our humanitarian relief seems to be going through agencies, which is very welcome. However, as far as I am aware, none is going to the Moldovan Government itself, as an act of solidarity with it and a political signal, too. Is it time for us to be also supporting the Moldovan Government directly not only to help in the humanitarian crisis that it is trying to deal with, but also as a political signal?

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will answer them in reverse order. The Deputy is correct that we have given support to agencies that are working in Moldova. There is a genuine interest from the Government in helping Moldova more generally. There is comprehensive support from Government. Before Christmas, I met the Moldovan Minister of Foreign Affairs and European Integration, Nicu Popescu. It was just a general "get-to-know-you" session. Moldova has a very new, pro-European government. As the Deputy said, they need practical help and also signals that we are with them. Moldova is experiencing a very difficult economic situation. Incredible support for Moldova has been provided through the EU. We will continue to provide support. The support that has been provided has been initial support. Moldova has been landed with a crisis that is much greater than ours in dealing with the Ukrainian people who are there. We have given significant support to agencies on the ground there that are doing work. That is within the decision that has been taken. We are absolutely open to directly helping the Moldovan Government. There is no question about that. I have made a commitment to the Moldovan Minister of Foreign Affairs and European Integration and I have discussed it with the Taoiseach as well. He is very interested in giving much more support to Moldova and in sending that signal. We are very cognisant of the Moldovan community in Ireland, which is of great benefit to Ireland. Many young working people have left Moldova. We need to help Moldova as much as we can, and we are very interested in doing that. There are many issues, not least the fact that there is a presence of Russian troops in part of the country, which is very difficult. We are cognisant of that. Indeed, I had a meeting in December with the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, representative for Transnistria.

On the Deputy's question on diplomats, there are 19 Russian diplomats and 11 administrators in Ireland. Four from that pool have been told to leave. There are not 29 diplomats, as such. I remind him that we brought in special planning legislation in the past year or two to directly ensure that the Russian embassy could not proceed with the planning for a particularly large building that it had planned on the site for national security reasons. A diplomat was also expelled in 2018. To be fair to the Government, the Russian embassy has been clearly on our radar over the past number of years. This is not the first expulsion. We had to bring in special planning legislation. The embassy is very much on our radar. In this particular case, an assessment has been made that the four people who are being expelled are not doing the work of diplomacy. They are doing other work and they cannot remain in the country. That is the assessment. There is no doubt that this issue will continue to be looked at on an ongoing basis.

We have six people in Moscow in total. That is a very small embassy for us. Those people are doing essential work in difficult circumstances.

There is no doubt that sanctions are having a significant impact. The sanctions target the Russian financial, energy, technology, defence and transport sectors. We have seen a significant reduction in manufacturing capacity in Russia because of that. Let us not forget that sanctions have also been introduced in Belarus. It is also important to remember that the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine, which are occupied by Russia, have also been subject to sanctions. They have also been suffering because of this. The media has also been suffering. It is fair to say that it is not clear that the sanctions have resulted in a major shift in Russian actions. We have seen that. However, the economic impact has been dramatic. We have seen the Russian rouble fluctuate. There is no doubt that the continuing purchase of natural gas and oil is having an impact there, because they are not sanctioned.

Inflation in Russia, however, is at a high level and that is starting to have a major impact. Unfortunately, it is affecting food prices and availability for ordinary people in Russia and that is Putin's fault. The closure of EU airspace has had a dramatic effect. People who even want to fly from Russia and Belarus to Kaliningrad, which is a Russian exclave, find it difficult. It is hard to get to because they cannot fly over Lithuania, for example. The Russian elite has also been badly impacted and we have seen some of them crying tears on television because of the unavailability of cleaners and other servants they are used to having, but they will just have to get used to this situation. They will have to try to put pressure on, and continue to put pressure on, Putin to end this war.

Overall, the sanctions are having a major impact on Russia. They will of course have an impact on us as well. Nothing done in the context of Putin's actions will be cost free. Discussions are taking place at the EU level regarding how to mitigate the effects on us. Whatever the impact is on us, however, it is nothing like the cost being borne by the Ukrainian people. The reason for these measures must never be forgotten: they exist because of Putin's war on Ukraine. The war is having so many negative effects that it must end, and these sanctions are the weapon of choice of the EU and the western world. We seek not to escalate things militarily, but to put as much economic pressure on Russia as is possible.

I imagine the Minister of State is not going to go into any great detail, and perhaps he may not be aware of it, on why these Russian diplomats were expelled. In the preliminary stages, when the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, said an examination of the diplomatic staff would be undertaken, I think he used the term "operatives". I thought that was interesting.

Turning to the wider issue, there has been extensive commentary regarding why Russia has such a major diplomatic presence in Ireland. One suggestion made was that, on some level, we are possibly a clearing house for espionage and industrial espionage operations across Europe, including the use of operatives who are termed "illegals". It is fantastic stuff and I suppose everyone who has read a book by Frederick Forsyth now believes they are experts. A wider issue is that we are one of the technology capitals of the world and our fear in this context relates to cyberattacks and hybrid threats. What discussions has the Government had about this aspect? Equally, what discussions have there been at the EU Council level and beyond regarding co-operation and being prepared for such eventualities?

Moving on to the sanctions, they are hurting and that is what we wanted them to do. There is always the fear, though, that war economies seem to be able to survive much longer than we might anticipate. The sanctions should be able to bite as much as is possible to force Putin to rethink continuing this war. When Ambassador Gerasko appeared before this committee, she spoke about a list that had been given to the Department of Foreign Affairs of businesses still dealing with Russia. I understand the complications in the context of the interconnectivity of the world economy, and it takes time to even explore all the machinations in the IFSC, but could we get an update regarding this aspect?

To address another topic, let us forget the rights and wrongs of being non-aligned and the issue of neutrality. We saw what happened in the context of President Joe Biden's utterances at the weekend. Fears have been expressed about moving the EU in the direction of being a military alliance, even by some people who have a greater interest in this happening than I do. The worry about doing that now or even of putting the possibility of it happening on the agenda, is that it might become a difficulty in negotiations between President Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian representatives and the Russians. I refer to talk of neutrality.

Deputy Seán Haughey took the Chair.

I do not get the question.

Okay. Let me put it this way. Certain people would now like to see greater movement on military co-operation and even Ireland moving away from being non-aligned. Whatever people's views in that regard, however, my difficulty and fear is that a line would be sold which states the EU is moving solidly towards being a military alliance and that perception then becomes part of a negotiating gambit in the talks between the Ukrainians and Russians. I refer to this aspect as being something that could be used in that context. As the Minister of State said himself, it was vital that we indicated we are open to Ukraine joining the EU, and we do not want to do anything that could possibly be detrimental to such a development in future.

I am not going to get into the neutrality debate because that is a matter for the Irish people. It is fair to say, however, that the context for such debate has completely changed. When it was a case of wars consisting of cavalry battles in Crimea and Ukraine in earlier times, we could stand back and be neutral about such battles on the field. The reality now, though, is that this war is having a global effect and impacting us all. I think it is fair to say that if neutrality means not taking a side, then the Irish people, overwhelmingly, have taken a side. Therefore, I do not think we are neutral in this context at all. Where our neutrality, as traditionally meant, comes in, is that, constitutionally, we cannot join a European defence pact. We cannot do that and we are not going to do that, unless the Irish people change their minds. NATO does not require a constitutional referendum but joining it has a similar status in the minds of the Irish people. This is a debate for another day-----

Right, and I said I did not want to get into the rights and the wrongs of this issue. I mention it because of a fear that the whole conversation around the rapid reaction force, etc, might mean we would end up in a situation where the Russian negotiators say they are not only worried about Ukraine being a member of NATO but also about it joining the EU because of a sense that the organisation might seem to be moving towards being a military alliance. Whatever happens in the future, I am just referring to the possibility of there being a way out of the war soon.

Russia has been opposed to the EU for a long time-----

-----and it has nothing to do with militarism. It is because we are democracies and concerned with freedom, human rights, economic progress and people doing well. Those are things which Russia does not want or care about for its citizens, but Ukraine does want them. We must have no illusions. Russia has been trying to undermine the EU probably in every member state at various times, and especially during the last 10 years.

In the Brexit vote, etc.

We have seen it happen in this country too, but we have seen particular examples abroad. I will not name them here. We should be firm and stand up for the EU. It has, effectively, been the greatest peace project ever undertaken, and I am not going to attribute descriptions of it as being a military alliance. Clearly, countries want to defend themselves. When I meet my colleagues from the Baltic states and the countries right next door to Russia, defending their countries and being part of NATO, and the EU perhaps moving in that direction, or perhaps not, because there are different debates in different countries, this context is absolutely existential for those countries. They could not exist without being members of these organisations because of what lies next door to them. We have a different debate in this country. Issues of geography mean we all have different experiences, but those countries are entitled to have those discussions.

On the issue of the IFSC-----

The thing about the list is that there is a list of sanctions imposed on companies and entities, business cannot be done with them and they cannot do business here. Therefore, that is a strong list. Other companies, which are not sanctioned, have also decided to pull out of Russia. Many famous brand name companies, including Irish firms, have pulled out, even though they were not on the list of those sanctions and they were not legally required to do so. Some companies have not done so, but I do not know of any Irish companies - although the Deputy will probably throw some names back at me - that have had the choice to stay and have done so. The vast majority of companies I know of that have not been affected by the sanctions have pulled out of Russia.

Deputy Joe McHugh resumed the Chair.

I think it was a specific list that the ambassador had sent to the Department of Foreign Affairs. That is what she told us.

I will respond later with an answer on that point. What I will say is that the list is really a list of companies, entities and individuals that are sanctioned. It is an extremely long list of those covered by all the various sanctions packages, and it will have changed week by week as those sanctions have been put in place.

The International Financial Services Centre is not exempt from sanctions. If a company is sanctioned it cannot do business there. To date, as of last Friday, the European Commission was notified by Ireland of the freezing of just under $1 billion or $919 million, and just over €18 million, in the IFSC, but work continues to go on. The Central Bank and the Minister for Finance deal with that directly.

I imagine there is also a team of forensic accountants.

Absolutely. The truth is the majority of businesses, whether banks, law firms or whatever, cannot do business with sanctioned companies because there could be consequences for them professionally. They have been trying to extricate themselves over the last while from doing business with any Russian entity that might be sanctioned. They will not risk that. People are not seeking to get around this. My experience is they want to comply. Business cannot be done with any company that is sanctioned. I expect that number to grow in the next while as work goes on.

On cyberattacks, we have seen a number of them famously in our country. We had a cyberattack. Addressing that will require much more investment here. The Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, and the Minister, Deputy McGrath, are taking a lead and working on that. The whole issue of cyber defence is probably something we need to have a conversation about as a country. It is associated with defence, but we may not associate it with defence because defence is associated with armies and weapons as such, but these are modern weapons in terms of disabling a country's health service, as happened to us.

Asymetrical warfare.

We saw in Belarus where Lukashenko was moving people as well. That was effectively a new one.

In our discussion on neutrality and common defence, addressing the cyber threat will have to play a big role. We will have to get real about that. We could probably achieve a lot more by co-operating with other countries. We could learn form them and work together but that will all have to be part of the debate on neutrality because cyber-warfare is warfare, just in a different form from that which we know warfare to be traditionally.

We will move on to Deputy Haughey followed by Deputy Calleary.

I thank the Minister of State for the briefing, particularly on Ukraine. I recall he gave an interview, I think it was on the "Today with Claire Byrne" radio show one morning prior to the invasion and he was very downbeat and gloomy. He had just come form various meetings throughout the European Union. It was a chilling interview. I do not think many of us realised that this was about to happen. Certainly the sense the Minister of State got was that it was about to happen and all this came to pass.

On the strategic compass, which was agreed at the European Council meeting, obviously the French Presidency was very anxious to finalise this in the context of recent developments, including the position in Afghanistan, whereby the European Union could not get its citizens out of there following the US withdrawal of its troops, and cyber-attacks, which we discussed this morning. I agree with the strategic compass and the moves by the European Union in regard to these matters. Specifically on the rapid reaction force, what is Ireland's view of that? Are we likely to participate in it? If we do, will we participate on our own terms whereby we could have an opt-in and an opt-out. I would be interested to hear the Minister of State’s thinking on that as this matter evolves.

My second question is on Ukraine's application for EU membership. I agree that Ireland, in principle, supports enlargement and I agree with the Irish stance on Ukraine. The Commission has been asked to report or to give an assessment on it. When is that likely to be finalised? When is the European Council likely to consider this further? How urgent is that from the Commission’s point of view.? There is opposition within the European Union by certain member states to Ukraine’s membership. I know the Minister of State has to be diplomatic but what is his understanding of the opposition to it. I guess it is not talked about out loud. Is it to do with the Balkan states and queue jumping, whereby states that have been in the queue for a long time feel they may be pushed down the list if Ukraine is fast-tracked or is it more to do with the strategic interests of various countries? Insofar as he can, will the Minister of State outline what the opposition is to that or what the problems may be with regard to Ukraine’s membership and getting agreement on it at the European Council and the European Parliament?

My next question is on sanctions. The Minister of Sate said that Ireland supports energy being included in the sanctions. There is a huge dependence by the European Union on imports of Russian oil, gas and coal. I note there has been decisions made to decrease this dependence over the coming years from a strategic point of view. How likely is it that energy will be included, or is it a question of decreasing our dependence and then including energy in the sanctions? I would be interested to hear the Minister of State’s thinking on that. Presumably there is fierce opposition again from certain member states to inlucidng energy. Does the Minister of State think that is likely in the short or even the medium term?

I have a final question on the peace talks being chaired by Turkey, about which we heard a good deal on the news last night. In the context of his experience on these matters, can we be hopeful about these peace talks and the various proposals put forward by Russia and Ukraine because that is the solution to all of this, to bring the war to an end. Given the Minister of State’s experience, does he think these peace talks being chaired by Turkey have a chance of succeeding?

On the strategic compass, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, was mianly dealing with that and it was agreed by the leaders last week. Work on the strategic compass has been ongoing for a number of years and, to be fair, Ireland has had a big impact on drafting it and getting involved in the discussion. To be clear, it is not a common European defence policy. It is just to enable the EU to better anticipate threats, respond to crises and to deepen co-operation with partners. In relation to any activity we take part in, such as the rapid deployment capacity, the triple lock applies. Obviously, decisions will be taken on a case by case basis by Ireland in relation to that. It is also important to remember that within the EU, even with the strategic compass, security and defence policy is a national competence. This document and our own participation in the common security and defence policy does not overrule, prejudge or interfere with our own security and defence policy or that of any other member state. It does not affect our traditional neutrality in any way. It does not affect the triple lock.

In relation to my comments in January on the prospect of war, I will tell you honestly why I felt that was the case. I was at the OSCE Ministerial Council meeting on 2 and 3 December in Stockholm and there were a number of things at that meeting that educated me about the situation. There was a tension in the room, the likes of which I had never experienced in my life. Minister Lavrov was there from Russia as well as Secrety of State Blinken and Minister Kuleba form Ukraine. It was an extremely tense meeting. I also happened to have breakfast with the Ukrainian and Latvian foreign ministers the following morning and my eyes were opened at that point in early December. We knew what was happening but I certainly came away from that meeting realising this was deadly serious and that anyone trying to play it down was not living in the world in which these people were living.

That is what got me and my eyes were opened at that particular point and, unfortunately, for Ukraine, it has proved to be the case in the foresight of their leaders and neighbours. They have certainly known the reality of Russian aggression.

I think it will be helpful if I can go briefly through the applications for membership. These will go through a process with the Commission which we hope will be as quick as possible. In the past it has taken years and these things are not rushed into. In general, Irish policy is that we are very strong supporters of enlargement. This year, we are beginning to celebrate the 50th anniversary of our membership. The referendum took place on 10 May 1972 which we will be commemorating. We joined the EU then on 1 January 1973. We have seen the benefits of what we have received from the EU but we also see the benefits that we have brought to the EU because every country brings something to the table. We are very strong that other countries should see the benefits of the social and economic progress that we have seen.

There are different nuances around the table and while I will not mention individual countries, not everyone would share that view to the same degree as us but everybody wants to see peace and an expanded EU of countries that can be members of the EU. The leaders have agreed in the Versailles Declaration on the position of Ukraine. That was also a very significant moment and one that would not have been predicted before Christmas as these things are changing all of the time. It was very important from our point of view that unity was achieved on the potential application for Ukraine.

We will certainly support the EU aspirations of Moldova and Georgia. These countries have expressed their aspirations and have put in applications in the past while. We will be urging their authorities to continue improvements and we note that the new government in Moldova is very positively disposed to the European identity which we want to encourage. The Georgian Government also needs to work hard, particularly around the rule of law, an independent judiciary and good governance.

We have been very strong supporters of North Macedonia and its application for membership. This country has done a serious amount of work to join the European Union. Bulgaria has an issue with North Macedonia over the past number of years which has prevented progress on that file. This concerns the issue of the language. We have repeatedly asked these countries to deal with that issue bilaterally between themselves and we have given them the example of Northern Ireland where all sorts of intractable issues can be dealt with when parties just get together. There has been progress and there has been a general election in Bulgaria where movement has taken place and we are certainly encouraging that. We would hope that North Macedonia, in particular, can be moved on. We are very strongly supportive of that country which has done so much to achieve this. If Bulgaria can deal with and resolve this issue in a different way, that could happen, I hope, very quickly.

On Serbia, it is technically a frontrunner for EU accession but it needs to improve on reforms and respect for fundamental rights; it also needs to fully align with the common foreign policy of the European Union. It has done that recently in votes at the UN but that has not always been the case. It is making efforts from the point of view of the government but it needs to fully align with the EU’s position on Russia. It has not done this fully this time but pressure was applied at the UN and Serbia voted alongside us at the UN. It does not have a sanctions regime in place, which is very significant for us, and for the people of Ukraine also. We strongly encourage Serbia to continue in its reform path and to align with the European Union on all of these issues.

Montenegro is technically a frontrunner but there are difficulties and we will give whatever support we can to this country, as it moves on.

Albania is similar to North Macedonia and it is tied in with that country. The file will not move until the Bulgarian veto on North Macedonia is removed but once that happens I believe that Albania can move on very quickly and we will support that.

We wish the peace talks every success but one has to be sceptical about Russia. We have seen it here on our own TV screens where Russia has said so much in the past which was not true. It announced that it was leaving the Kyiv region but I understand that there were bombs there last night. We take Russia’s comments with a grain of salt and we judge on actions not on words. We want peace and any talks can be positive.

Energy sanctions could happen but the key for the European Union is energy autonomy. A great deal of work has been done to reduce the dependence on Russian oil and gas. This, obviously, should have happened years ago but it is now happening. The Commission published a document in March which outlined a plan to make us completely independent in a number of years. A gas storage policy is being put in place and we are also looking at the joint purchase of gas in the same way that we did the vaccines. In addition, in talking to colleagues around the European table, some of whom have also said publicly that they are scouring the world to try to find alternative supplies of gas, whether that is in Africa, Asia or indeed from the US. We heard President Biden’s announcement last week and a great deal of work is going on to eliminate that dependence on Russian oil and gas. I do not know whether there will be sanctions in the meantime. Ireland will support them if there is a proposal but it requires all of the member states to agree to that.

I thank the Minister of State. I call Deputy Calleary to speak now, please.

I thank the Chairman. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus gabhaim buíochas leis freisin as an ráiteas inniu. I thank the Minister of State for his relative frankness in the discussion on many of the issues that have been covered. Returning to the membership issue, I believe the Minister of State understands that this is more than just a geographical issue. The EU sanctions are a value-related statement. Is there some feedback here, Chairman?-----

There is, unfortunately some feedback here, Deputy Calleary.

The expansion of the Union that we are looking at should be the expansion of a value-led organisation as well as a geographical one. The statement on expansion would include Ukraine but obviously there are other countries at this time. Ukraine’s application is a different type of membership application and is in a different time for membership applications. Different circumstances should, thefore, apply. I congratulate the Taoiseach, the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Coveney, on leading out on that.

On some direct Ukraine issues, if this country’s application had been with us before the invasion, it would have been asking the EU about rule of law issues in Poland and Hungary. Given the extraordinarily generous response of Poland and Hungary to the situation, is there still an appetite to pursue the rule of law issues?

On the energy crisis, what positions are likely around the reduction of VAT to allow flexibility to member state governments to reduce VAT and taxation on energy prices? We see in the last number of minutes the situation on Russian rubles where Germany has started a preliminary warning system of a potential disruption of energy. The energy situation, unfortunately, is not going to improve soon. What flexibility is going to be there for member states on that? I thank the Chairman.

I thank the Deputy and ask the Minister of State to reply, please.

Aontaím go hiomlán leis an Teachta Calleary gurbh iad luachanna an Aontais Eorpaigh atá tábhachtach anseo agus gur féidir leis an duine vótáil sa mhodh is mian leis nó léi vótáil, gur féidir linn labhairt sa mhodh is mian linn, go bhfuil meas againn ar chearta daonna, agus go bhfuilimid anseo ag obair le chéile agus ag iarraidh an saol is fearr a thabhairt do shaoránaigh, ina saol eacnamaíoch ach ina saol sóisialta freisin. Deputy Calleary is right in that the values of the European Union are what are important in any enlargement of the European Union and are key. In the European Union one can basically vote for whoever one likes and say what one likes and there is respect for human rights.

It is interesting because when we joined 50 years ago there had to be a special Government decision to mandate that there would be equal pay between men and women. The interesting thing about that, of course, is because it was the then Irish Commissioner, Patrick Hillery who went in and actually implemented that decision. That was part of our change at that time and there have been ongoing changes since then. All of these types of issues are still there with all of these applicant countries to ensure that they are fully aligned with European values. Ukraine has shown that it is fully on board with European values. It is a democracy which values a free media and we want to give it the strongest possible signal of support and to work with it on whatever issues are there.

Currently, the humanitarian crisis is the big issue.

The rule of law is still extremely important and it is why there is a process to join the European Union and ensure what we take for granted, such as an independent judiciary, a free media and democratic structures, are fully in place. It means that when states are members of the European Union, they cannot backslide on such things. One of the most important actions of every member state is that we submit to the European Commission every year for an examination of the state of the rule of law. We then have a discussion at the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament also has a discussion. Conferences are also organised on the different matters that arise. Such discussions might include the digitalisation of the Courts Service or the reforms to the defamation laws that the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, is introducing. We are working towards responding to some of those matters. From an Irish perspective, we do not take umbrage when somebody points out a little thing here or there. We try to do what is right and implement changes.

In the past couple of discussions about Hungary and Poland, I have been particularly conscious that Poland is now hosting over 2 million refugees from Ukraine. It is doing incredible work. Additionally, it has started to make some efforts around changes to its judiciary, although we will have to see the outcome of those efforts. I acknowledge them nonetheless and I encourage Poland to continue that process, which is so important. Ukraine wants what the European Union has and I believe Poland gets that. That is the reality.

There are Article 7 procedures and the committee is aware of them and familiar with them. They will continue. It is difficult to get a concrete outcome from them but it is important to keep them on the table. We fully support the rule of law budget mechanism recently approved by the court and we went to the court to support it. I am very proud that Ireland did that.

There are serious issues in Hungary and there is no doubt about that. It must engage constructively with the Commission. Financial support can be withheld through the rule of law mechanism and we will see how that goes. Both of those countries - Poland in particular but also Hungary - are on the front lines in helping people from Ukraine. They need support for this but it does not take away from all other obligations to respect the rule of law. That applies to each and every one of us. Ireland will continue to be a very strong voice in that regard, watching progress, as we are in Poland, where it is happening to some extent. We must ensure it happens and encourage the countries along that path. We will keep doing that.

There are many things happening relating to energy prices. I am not directly involved with the Government discussions on VAT with the Commission, which will be done through the Department of Finance. They are ongoing and I hope the process will lead to a resolution that will be favourable to us. However, we have introduced significant support here with the voucher or discount on the bills and the excise duty reduction. That is significant in comparison to what the British have done, for example. What is more important overall is getting that price down. That will be done by sourcing gas from places other than Russia and trying to get a security of supply. That is going on. We must store more gas than we do now and have joint purchase of gas, which would give us more market power and, I hope, reduce the price. It is also about moving to renewables because the European Union cannot continue as we are. In heating our houses and putting on the lights, we are totally dependent on a major unfriendly power next to us.

The European Commission will come back in May with another report on the question of energy autonomy and prices. We will see but there has already been significant work done on that which has brought outcomes. The process will continue.

We covered much ground there.

I may be one of the dissenting voices on the expulsion of the Russian diplomats yesterday. It was the wrong movement from our Government because keeping the door open with Russia is important. Does the Minister of State expect to see any retaliation from the Russians on that?

I see the Minister of State wished Turkey well in the peace talks. The Minister of State is a leader in Ireland, which is a neutral country. Have we reached out to all other neutral nations to see if we could be part of a process of putting together some groups to negotiate in peace talks between Ukraine and Russia?

I said the last time the committee met that we need some kind of Covid-style response within the European Union to this crisis. There are over 6 million people displaced, which is a significant number. I would like to see more work being done by Europe and more help coming from the EU to Ireland. We are talking about taking in 200,000 people but we have very limited resources. I do not know if the Minister of State has seen the photographs on social media of the tent-style housing being put up at Gormanston Camp at this point. There are 2 million refugees in Poland and it has not put up any tented villages. There are 500,000 refugees in Hungary and it has no tented villages either. I am very much against putting up any emergency tented villages to house our refugees, even temporarily. It seems the Hungarians and Polish are doing this better than we are for once.

It seems we waited nearly five weeks before we took action on Russian diplomats and a couple of dogs in Europe had to bark first before we started taking action yesterday. We waited for others to act and then we acted simultaneously. I would like to hear the Minister of State's views on what retaliation might be expected from Russia.

I am not sure what the basis for dissent is. If people believe the diplomats should not be expelled, that is fine. They are being expelled because the evidence available to the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Government was that they were not doing diplomatic work but were doing other work that was not compatible with the law. We had no option in those circumstances but to expel those personnel. It is the simple reason and such decisions are taken in consultation with the Garda, the Defence Forces and other European Union member states when we have such information. In truth, when that kind of information comes to the Government, there is no option but to say that these people must go. They cannot remain in the country. It is a very serious action and this involved many diplomats being expelled. They need to go.

There is no justification whatever for retaliation. Our staff in Moscow do the ordinary work of diplomats, which is reporting back to Dublin what is happening and dealing with Irish citizens who, when they contact an embassy, are often in extreme distress or difficulty for various reasons. Our staff in Moscow are doing this under very difficult circumstances and they are not doing anything incompatible with their diplomatic status. Ireland has done nothing wrong. It has never invaded any country whereas Russia has in this case. We do not have spies or anybody doing work on a non-diplomatic basis in Moscow. We all know the form of Russia in this case so we will see what happens. Our staff do tremendous work in Russia in very small numbers. The embassy in Moscow is tiny.

I wish anybody involved in peace talks well. Turkey is not a neutral country and it is a member of NATO. It has been very difficult for French President Macron to be on the phone constantly with Mr. Putin and listening to what he comes out with. He has done it in the interests of peace. He has done it on behalf of all of us as France has the Presidency of the Council of the European Union for the time being. It is an important voice and such work is important.

We are actively involved in discussions at the UN Security Council. We have been extremely clear. Russia needs to leave Ukraine. It needs to take its army and soldiers and go home and tell the people the truth of what it has done. This is wrong and needs to end. That is where our strong voice has come in. To anybody who is working towards peace, we wish them well. It is very difficult to trust Russia. We only trust it in terms of what it actually does, not by what it says.

In terms of a Covid-style response, I agree. There has been an extraordinary response from the European Union, running into billions of euro so far. The European Union has been taking steps in the last few weeks that were completely unimaginable before Christmas. It has brought the EU together. That is very welcome. We have sent out a signal that we are democratic, we support democracy and we want Ukraine to be fully part of that European family.

In Poland, the Deputy said there are no tented villages. It is the depths of winter there. They are using gymnasiums and church halls. Poland does not have a supply of houses it can magic up for millions of people. When he was in Poland two weeks ago the Minister, Deputy Coveney, visited a gymnasium where people were sleeping. That is the accommodation they have there. We probably both know Gormanston better than anyone. That would be used if necessary. It is clearly not what we want to do but the numbers are very high. The numbers we have taken in so far are nothing really, compared with other countries. It is part of a wider response.

It is also very important to remember that this is a temporary protection directive. The idea of this is to give people temporary protection. Almost everybody who has left Ukraine wants to go back home. Why would they not? Until now, Ukraine was quite a successful country. There are stories of Russian soldiers coming into villages and being shocked by the standard of living compared to what they have in Russia. Ukraine wants to improve on that standard of living. People want to go back when it is safe to do so, to rebuild their country. We will help them. We have limited resources, as does every country. I was talking to my ministerial counterpart in Rome, Vincenzo Amendola, and I asked him where were the Ukrainian people going who are arriving in Italy. There are a lot of church properties, gymnasiums, halls and so on being used there as well. I was reminded in Italy that there is a still a huge flow of people coming across the Mediterranean in very difficult circumstances. They are coming from all sorts of countries through north Africa. That is a very difficult situation. They do not have the same rights as Ukrainians. They have the right to apply for international protection if they are entitled to that but the temporary protection directive is there for the people of Ukraine in these particularly difficult circumstances.

There has been a fair bit of discussion in the public domain about what is believed to have gone on or been run from the Russian embassy. There is talk of illegals and running a degree of espionage or industrial espionage operations throughout Europe. I am not expecting a comprehensive answer but is there any answer the Minister of State can give about that and the worries that exist around the Russian embassy at the minute? I accept that it fits into some of our fears and worries as regards hybrid and cyber security.

When we had our meetings with the Moldovans, Georgians and Ukrainians, people got the idea of the Copenhagen criteria. In fairness, the Minister of State has dealt with the significant issues, particularly in respect of rule of law. We know the issues around Hungary. Could there be a more straightforward roadmap and facilitation for them into the future?

On the question of Hungary and Poland, I assume on some level that Vladimir Putin has probably secured the future of the European Union and the whole idea of co-operation. We probably had a very different interaction with the Polish ambassador than we would have had previously, given the work Poland is doing in dealing with the desperate refugee situation. Has there been any movement from Poland since the invasion? I would imagine it also recognises the necessity of Europe. I am differentiating the Poles from Viktor Orbán. Even in respect of the latter, I assume there have been many conversations with him at a high level about the relationship with Vladimir Putin's Russia. The Minister of State detailed a lot of information about the candidate countries seeking accession. He spoke about Serbia. Even individually, we here have had conversations with the likes of the Bosnian ambassador and others. There is a belief that there are certain dangers in that part of the world and some of them have arisen, possibly due to Russian gamesmanship. Has the conversation moved on?

On gas, people are seeking every source outside of Russia, which is absolutely necessary. Am I correct in thinking there is a rationing deal across Europe such that if gas resources are depleted in the likes of Poland, everyone has to pony up? At that stage, primacy would have to be given to electricity production so we could find ourselves not only with the difficulty of price but also a lack of supply. I think everyone here is in absolute agreement that we need the European Union to come back with a positive result from the point of view of giving us some necessary levers on VAT. The issue of supply is particularly concerning at this point. I get that. In the best-case scenario, we need to make maximum use of the renewables that are available to us. However, we are not going to be able to do that straight away.

The Deputy asked me a security question at the start. That would be better addressed by the Minister for Justice or the Minister for Defence. I do not think they would answer him either, though.

No, and in fairness I heard the report on "Morning Ireland" earlier which referred to illegals being run out of it and all the rest. I would like to think we are looking into the ins and outs of all that and will do whatever is necessary.

We have to let them do their job. On Hungary and Poland, we will continue our discussions with them. There is an election in Hungary on Sunday. We will let that happen. We do not want to interfere in that. As I understand it, the Hungary rule of law report is up for discussion at the next General Affairs Council in Luxembourg next month. We will be having that discussion very soon. On Bosnia, I am meeting the Croatian-----

Just on Hungary, has there been any movement from it as regards the relationship with Russia?

The Deputy would have to ask the Hungarians that question. To be fair to them, they have fully lined up with decisions that have been taken by the European Union which have required unanimity. They have done that. They have their own history with Russia and the USSR as well. I do not think we should underestimate that either, despite different commentaries. Hungary has an election this weekend. We should let that happen. It has fully lined up with all decisions on this.

This is a game changer for everybody.

It is, yes. Bosnia is always under active discussion, particularly at the Foreign Affairs Council and European Council. I am meeting my Croatian counterpart in a couple of hours. This will be on the agenda as well. On gas, there is no proposal like the one the Deputy mentioned. There is possible joint purchasing, storage mechanisms and increased storage and other routes for supply such as those President Biden announced last week. Other countries are also involved there.

There is complete logic in that. Something was put in the media at one point to the effect that we are already in a scenario where there are deals done and that if there was a shortage, it would mean there would be rationing. The example given was Poland. We would all have to pony up.

I am not going to add to that speculation because there is genuinely nothing on the table in that regard at the moment. We do not want to cause any fears or runs. I can speak to what I see happening, and I have spoken to people involved in it, which is that countries are buying up gas from other places and trying to ship it in. There are pipelines as well that may be under-utilised from other parts of Eurasia that do not affect Russia. There is a lot of work going on. President Biden's announcement last week was very significant. What we need to do is reduce our dependence and move on then to renewables as well.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as an chomhrá leathan agus cuimsitheach inniu agus as na sonraí agus faisnéis a thug sé dúinn. Is léir go mbeidh níos mó comhráite idir na páirtithe leasmhara éagsúla timpeall an domhain, agus san AE ach go háirithe. Tá sé sin iontach tábhachtach. Tá muidne ag dul go dtí Moldova agus Romania an tseachtain seo chugainn ón Luain go dtí an Aoine. Tá muidne ag dúil go mór leis sin agus ag iarraidh na sonraí ar an talamh agus faisnéis maidir leis na daoine uilig atá ag dul go dtí Moldova agus Romania, agus go háiteanna timpeall an AE ina dhiaidh sin, a fháil. Gabhaim buíochas arís le comhghleacaithe an Aire Stáit sa Roinn Gnóthaí Eachtracha as an chuidiú. Gabhaim buíochas do gach duine. Tá an cruinniú seo thart anois. Beidh an chéad chruinniú eile ar 9.30 a.m Dé Céadaoin, an 27 Aibreán.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.02 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27 April 2022.
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