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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 15

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

The next item on the agenda is a presentation by Mr. Frederick Cooper, principal officer from the Department of Finance, on the proposal COM (2003) 78 VAT, which concerns the treatment of travel agents and tour operators, following which Mr. Pat Leahy, assistant principal, will discuss COM (2003) 335. We are also joined by Ms Clare Robson, principal officer and Mr. John Wolohan, assistant principal, from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I welcome our visitors and remind them that, while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. I also remind members of the committee of long standing parliamentary practice to which I have already referred earlier today and which I will not repeat at this stage. I invite Mr. Cooper to proceed.

Mr. Frederick Cooper

Thank you, Chairman. I refer to the information note which has already been provided, as well as the detailed background note which was supplied to the committee as a basis for this presentation. As explained in the information note, the regulation which is the subject of today's scrutiny is simply concerned with providing a mechanism to assist travel agents from outside the EU where these agents sell travel services to EU customers. However, the underlying issue which gives rise to a need for that regulation in the first instance is the draft directive on the treatment of travel agents and tour operators. I now propose to address that issue. I will take the committee through the topic by explaining the existing margin scheme, the new proposal from the EU Commission and the potential impact of the scheme if adopted in Ireland. I will then bring the committee up to date on developments in Europe.

The existing margin scheme is a way of applying VAT to the profit margin of travel service providers, who usually combine a number of services such as car hire, hotel accommodation and so on in a package which they sell to the consumer in their own name. The existing scheme allows for the correct VAT to be levied on the services in the package at the point where those services are consumed. For example, if one hires a car in Greece and arranges hotel accommodation there, the VAT on those services are paid in Greece. In relation to the profit margin of the travel agent on that particular package, VAT is levied in the country where the travel agent sells that package.

If there was no special scheme in operation to cater for the unique circumstances of travel agents, normal VAT rules would apply. This would mean that, for example, a travel agent in the UK would have to charge VAT on the entire contents of a holiday package sold to a consumer, not just on the profit margin as is currently the case. In those circumstances, the travel agent could reclaim the VAT charged on the elements of the holiday package. In the case of hotel accommodation in Greece, he could try to claim the VAT paid on that accommodation but, to do so, he would have to register for VAT in Greece and seek to recover the VAT from the Greek authorities, which is not an easy process.

Accordingly, the alternative, which is the present special margin scheme, provides that VAT is only payable on the profit margin on the package holiday sold by the travel agent. The VAT payable on the contents of the holiday accrues to the Greek authorities. The VAT payable on the profit margin on the holiday package accrues to the tax authorities where the travel agent is located. Currently, this is only of academic interest to us as Ireland is not part of this particular scheme and travel agents in Ireland do not pay VAT on the margin on the package they sell.

This leads us on to the proposal from the Commission which has a number of broad aims. The first element is to update the scheme which has not been changed since 1977, although there have been substantial developments in the tourism sector in the meantime. Consumers are more sophisticated and the packages on offer are much more varied, giving rise to a need to modernise the existing scheme. A second consideration is that member states are not uniform in their treatment of the scheme. In some European countries, a travel agent may sell a package on to another travel agent. One member state may treat that as if the travel agent was selling on to a consumer while another member state may treat it differently and apply different VAT rules.

The third objective of the proposal is to resolve difficulties with non-EU travel agents selling to consumers within the EU, especially over the Internet. Finally, the Commission wishes to remove the existing exemptions applying to Ireland and Denmark, who do not currently operate the scheme.

I now turn to the impact of the proposal on Ireland if we became part of the scheme, the most immediate impact being that our existing exemption would be removed, bringing us within the existing directive, as modified. Irish based travel service providers would then be required to operate the revised scheme, involving payment of VAT at the standard rate on their profit margin on package holidays. In addition, the scheme would also be extended to include travel agents established outside the EU who provide travel services to customers within the EU.

This is where the regulation to which I referred earlier comes into play. The regulation which was the subject of the initial note to this committee simply proposes to make the administrative arrangements easier for non-EU travel agents on being brought within the scope of the new scheme. In effect, there would be a level playing field, with EU and non-EU travel service providers being treated in the same manner. According to the travel trade, the main potential impact would be a possible increase of up to 3% in prices for the provision of travel services. It is obvious that this depends on the profit margin of the travel agent concerned. If the agent's profit margin is just 10%, for example, one would expect prices to increase by about 2%, bearing in mind the VAT rate of 21%. One hears differing views about the profitability of travel agents, but it is just an example.

This proposal will have two main business consequences for the Irish travel industry, depending on the customers involved. The first consequence will involve non-EU customers, such as an American citizen taking a holiday in Ireland. If such a person purchases a holiday outside the EU, for example in the US, the scheme will not apply to him or her. If he or she purchases a holiday in Ireland from an Irish based travel agent, the scheme will apply to him or her. The second consequence will affect an Irish tourist who purchases a holiday in the EU, for example in Spain or Greece. No VAT is payable on such a holiday at present but, under the new arrangements, such holidays will be subject to VAT on the margin made by the travel agent. Nothing will change in respect of tourists from member states other than Denmark, as travel agents in such states are already subject to VAT on their margins.

I wish to draw attention to the difference between travel agents who sell holidays on commission and those who put packages together. While travel agents who deal only on commission may not be subject to the rules of this scheme, as such, they will nevertheless be liable to VAT at 21% on the commission they earn from the holidays. There will be no difference, in respect of the tax payable, between the treatment of someone who puts a package together and someone who simply sells on a package and earns the commission. VAT will be payable in both cases.

One of the concerns expressed to the Department by the travel trade relates to the potential administrative burden. The larger tour operators will be able to look after themselves, generally speaking, but there is a possibility that smaller travel agents may encounter difficulties as a result of coming within the scope of the VAT system. In this context the Department hopes that if Ireland becomes involved in this scheme, it will be possible to reclaim the VAT paid on supplies made to travel agents. This is one of the potential benefits of being part of the scheme. Travel agents may be able to reclaim VAT paid on office equipment, such as computers, acquired in pursuit of their trade.

The Revenue Commissioners have undertaken to work with the trade to make things as easy as possible in the event of Ireland's participation in the scheme. In this regard, an annual VAT return is possible, something that is provided for in the directive.

I will refer to the current position. The working party dealing with this proposal held a meeting in Brussels on 3 September last. It was clear from the meeting that a number of issues, such as Ireland's negotiating position, remain to be decided. Our initial position was to continue to seek an exemption from the scheme. In the course of the negotiations, the Presidency offered us a derogation until 1 January 2007. We are working with the Danes at the moment to try to present a united front on the best possible negotiating stance.

The second issue that has arisen in the context of this directive is that four member states want not only to be able to use the existing margin scheme, but also to be able to avail of normal VAT rules. One of the reasons we do not have any strong feelings on this matter is that we want to concentrate on our negotiating position and do not want to muddy the waters. This aspect of the scheme would not affect Irish businesses in any event, as they would not be able to claim deductibility. Such a claim would be possible however in some member states if the normal VAT rules were to apply.

A third point worth mentioning is that Germany has been seeking the imposition of VAT on air passenger transport for journeys inside and outside the EU. International air transport is exempted from VAT within the EU at present. Germany's stance on this issue does not have any support and we do not expect it to succeed. Belgium wishes to include in the margin scheme travel services supplied in the EU by travel agents in respect of journeys outside the EU. This is contrary to current VAT practice. Belgium is isolated on this issue and we do not expect that it will be a problem. These issues will come up for decision at an ECOFIN meeting in the near future.

I thank Mr. Cooper. Before I invite members of the committee to ask questions or make observations, can the delegation clarify one or two matters for me? This is a new area for the committee. Will travel agents based outside the European Union who sell packages on the Internet for travel beginning and ending in the EU be affected by the terms of this VAT directive? How will such agents be required to register and to pay VAT? How will VAT be collected from companies that are not based in the EU? What will be the mechanics of this arrangement?

Ms Clare Robson

I will answer that. The idea in the directive is that there will be a simplified system, whereby a travel agent of the kind referred to by the Chairman can choose a single member state in which to register. The agent will account for all the VAT he is liable to pay in the different member states in respect of his various customers. If he chooses to register in Ireland, the system that is used for the e-commerce directive would be used. He would register through ROS, the on-line revenue service, and we would be accountable to the other member states forgiving them the VAT we had collected on their behalf.

I understand that is how the system can work, but how do we ensure it will work? How can we force a travel agent based in the Caribbean or the United States to register? I am worried about how we can ensure compliance. We have no hold on such people. I know they can register in one member state and that is how the system will work if travel agents comply with the regulations, but they cannot be prevented from doing business in the EU. How do we make them register? How do we collect the money if they choose not to do so? I am concerned that there may be a clear incentive for travel agents in the EU to relocate outside the EU so they continue to sell in the EU without having to pay VAT. That would be a loss to everybody. I thinkMs Robson understands the concern I am expressing.

Ms Robson

Yes. We share that concern. The focus at this stage is on the creation of a mechanism to do what the Chairman has spoken about. We imagine that the bigger operators will comply - they will want to comply because they will be advertising holidays in Europe. The same system will apply throughout Europe. It will not be commercially acceptable for firms to run up a VAT debt in Europe without accounting for it. They will have to make provision for a VAT debt that is accruing in the EU in respect of their normal business and commercial operations in their own countries. We envisage that the bigger companies will choose to comply with the new regulations in order to prove that they have greater validity and trustworthiness in the European market.

I would like to mention a parallel case, although my details might not be exact. Did it not happen that an English betting company moved an operation to Ireland because there was no betting tax here? I am concerned that companies would just move their business outside the EU. I know you say that, considering good practice, big companies will not want to do so. However, most businesses are not as pure as all that. Is there a potential for a loss of business from EU member states to outside the EU? You probably do not have the answer but I wish to express a concern. How are we dealing with that concern in these negotiations?

Ms Robson

Within the negotiations we are trying to progress a framework which will create a legal liability. After that, it is up to the enforcement of the member states from an administrative point of view. Within the Revenue Commissioners we have to look at issues in regard to resources being put into chasing non-Eu suppliers into the EU while we have plenty of taxpayers within our own jurisdiction to whom we need to apply our resources. There are major issues in regard to compliance but this is——

Will this new regime be covered by the existing double taxation agreements or will they have to be amended to take account of it?

Ms Robson

The double taxation agreements address corporation tax whereas this is VAT.

Will we therefore need to have new double taxation agreements with some of these countries to deal with this type of issue?

Ms Robson

What happens is that the place of supply of the service becomes the EU. The country in which the travel agent is established needs to make sure it does not tax the services that are supplied within the EU.

Ms Robson referred to VAT being paid on the profit margin. Does that refer to gross profit or net profit and who is the arbiter of that?

Ms Robson

It refers to the gross margin.

Therefore, the logic is that if one is charging VAT on the gross margin, one must allow full deductability of VAT in the running of the businesses because they are having to remit VAT on the gross margin and they have overheads that help achieve the gross margin, the VAT they pay on the overheads will have to be offset and allowed to be deducted. Are the amounts of money expected to be large? I am concerned that some the annual return from some of the big travel agents could run to millions of euro. It is a big figure to be calculated and paid once a year. Is that normal? I know most people pay VAT on a two monthly payment cycle. If companies are registered on the Revenue on-line service, surely these returns could be made on a more frequent basis than annually.

Ms Robson

In the normal course of events, we would stick with the system for Irish taxpayers which is the two monthly system. What Mr. Cooper was referring to was that if there are very small operators brought into this - first time taxpayer faced with a VAT element - we would negotiate a system which would make it simpler for them to account for their VAT once a year based on a globalised figure of their entire year's operations.

We know the volume of turnover in the travel agency business based on the industry markers but what is the estimated benefit to the Exchequer if this VAT regime is introduced and when is it due to click in for Ireland?

Mr. Cooper

The scheme would come into operation on 1 January 2005 but Ireland may not come in until 2007 or 2008, if it participates in the scheme.

Someone, in the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Finance, must have some estimate of what type of VAT we would collect from this regime. We are hardly proposing to introduce a regime if there is no concept of the benefit. If the information is not available today, I ask that it be supplied to us.

Mr. Cooper

We have not yet introduced the regime. We are at the negotiation stage. Our initial position was that we wanted Ireland to be exempt. As the proposal is still being discussed, we do not have firm estimates. I would estimate that it would not be a huge amount of money.

I have another meeting to go to. I understood that today's meeting was to be about IPSO and carbon taxes. The Chairman was the only representative of Fianna Fáil here until Senator Mansergh came in and Deputy Ó Caoláin and I are the only other members present. I have another meeting to go to at 4.30 p.m. and I would welcome some indication from the Chairman whether the presentation on carbon taxes will be reached. It is a disgrace that three people from the Fianna Fáil team are being paid money to service and function at this committee. Where are they? We are here like two idiots waiting.

I will conclude my questioning and hand over to the Opposition. In fairness, most of the questions——

Where are the rest of the Fianna Fáil members? They are supposed to take an interest in this.

Several of them are in the Dáil Chamber. There is no party whip on a joint committee meeting.

It is just a bit ridiculous. I understood from what the Chairman said this morning that we were going into the issue of carbon taxes.

We are. Before lunch, I indicated that we would conclude this session and give one hour to this issue and then go onto the carbon tax issue at about 3.15 p.m.

I did not hear the Chairman say he was going to give one hour to it.

I said so before lunch.

You did not.

My last question is why we would want to be exempt. Surely this type of issue is a luxury in many people's minds. There should be VAT on luxuries. Why would we be looking for an exemption?

Mr. Cooper

The exemption has been in place since 1977. There has been pressure from the trade that it would like to continue this practice. As the Chairman says, that is not necessarily a justification for the situation to continue.

In regard to how one would police non-EU travel agents working in Europe, at present they are not being policed. Therefore, this is at least an attempt to rectify that. The Chairman mentioned the question of travel agents in Europe locating outside. Travel agents in Europe are already part of this margin scheme. They will not be affected by the scheme. The only travel agents who will be affected by the scheme potentially are those in Denmark in Ireland.

I understand from the travel industry that it estimates an increase of 3% in terms of overall travel costs given the application of VAT on the profit margins. Unlike the Chairman, I would be vehement that the 1977 derogation for Ireland should continue and I hope that position is being pressed by our representatives in tandem with Denmark which, I understand from Mr. Cooper's presentation, is the case. I wish them well in that pursuit. There are few areas that Ireland's interest and the interest of any sector within Irish interests is specially catered to. It is very important that that situation is maintained. The travel services sector, in terms of its wider description is a major employer in this jurisdiction and on this island and I would wish to see every effort employed to protect that.

The acoustics in this room are very poor. With no disrespect to our visitors, whom I welcome, the conversation flow was between the Chairman and them. Deputy Burton and I were at quite a remove and were unable to hear all of the presentation and even some of the questioning for some reason. The microphone was not as effective as it has been in other committee rooms; I do not know why, but there may be a deficiency in the acoustics of this room.

Are we dealing with both COM (2003) 78 and COM (2003) 335? Mr. Cooper also made reference to the proposal for a council directive amending Directive 77/388/EEC, which concerns the common system of value added tax.

We said we would allocate an hour to deal with both.

Mr. Cooper may correct me if I am wrong, but I understood from remarks I heard that this was not an area about which we were overly exercised. Today's The Irish Times mentions that abolition of the veto on tax is being sought by Commissioner Prodi. This matter is to do with unanimity. We need to be very clear that this is something on which Irish opinion needs to be reflected strongly. We must reject any move by Commissioner Prodi to seek the abolition of the national veto on taxation matters because it is a huge issue of Irish sovereignty.

The document concerning COM (2003) 335 asserts that the Council would still take any decision on these proposals by unanimity but that the existing procedures on tax matters would be fundamentally changed. This exposes an attempt to circumvent the requirement for unanimity on taxation matters and Commissioner Prodi's remarks, as reported in the Irish media today, give further confirmation of that. I am strongly opposed to such an approach and I hope the representatives of the Department of Finance, and indeed those who are directly involved in these matters in the European Union, will assert and affirm Irish interests by defending the continuity and importance of the unanimity requirement, which is essential.

I am seeking reassurance from Mr. Cooper and his colleagues. First, I want to make it very clear that I am anxious about the issue of travel agents and how the relevant provision has applied to Ireland and Denmark since 1997, and I have no doubt that I am representative of a significant section of Irish opinion in this regard. I would like reassurance on this matter, despite the Chairman's earlier line of questioning which, with respect to him, I thought was weak - and I do not think we should offer any weakness in such matters. I had not heard the detail of the commentary on COM (2003) 335; I would like an affirmation of the intent of the Department of Finance and the current Administration to continue to press for the maintenance of sovereignty in taxation, which is an imperative in terms of our relationships with other EU member states.

Some of Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions arise from the way in which the information has been presented, and this represents a general problem with the presentations from the Department of Finance to this committee. As I understand it, the paper deals largely with the regulation of the VAT regime in Ireland rather than budgetary decisions by Governments in relation to rates, to which the proposal applies. The way in which the paper is presented does not make this clear.

From a left wing point of view, the European VAT system has been the critical way in which businesses have come into the tax system because, although it obviously imposes costs, particularly on smaller businesses, it does mean that businesses are forced to keep accounts and provide records for VAT purposes to the revenue authorities. In any sort of system in which we ultimately want to address the issue of non-compliance in taxation and the evading or avoidance of tax in various sectors, a properly functioning and properly regulated VAT system is a cornerstone. I do not have a problem - nor does the Labour Party - with the imposition of a well regulated, uniform VAT accounting system for businesses and for national states throughout Europe. The question of the Irish position on taxation policy is obviously a political matter and the Labour Party has spoken on that before. We do not share the views put forward by Commissioner Prodi - which are a significant departure from his usual views - in relation to the EU constitution and additional powers that may be granted under it.

To return to the question of presentation of the paper, much more could be done by the committee if we were given a very short summary of the implications of a change, or an indication that there was none. That would be helpful to members, who must otherwise wade through many documents. In many cases matters do not get the scrutiny they deserve because they can be extremely obscure.

Mr. Cooper

The Deputy is referring to the information note on the regulation that was sent to the committee. That note is about a regulation which is part of a directive which preceded the note by a considerable period of time - it dates back to February 2002 - and we tried to explain, as I did today, that the regulation was just a minor part of the overall directive. That is why most of my presentation was concerned with the underlying issue of the directive itself. The note was on the regulation and not on the directive, but we did refer to the directive in the note.

On the question of pressing the claim for continued exemption for travel agents, it is clear that we have been taking this seriously; that is why we sought an exemption in the first place. It must be recognised that we are essentially on our own because the Danes are not as strong willed as us on this issue. We are a club of two among 15, but we are certainly doing our best to press a case and obtain the best possible outcome for the travel trade.

What about the issue of unanimity and Commissioner Prodi's remarks which were reported today?

Mr. Cooper

There is a paper on that, about which Mr. Leahy will speak. I assure the Deputy that we do take our long standing position on unanimity very seriously indeed. There is no concession on that point in relation to taxation matters in Europe.

I do not think there is anything new in Commissioner Prodi's position on taxation, but the position of the Irish Government, as expressed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance at frequent intervals is absolutely clear and unequivocal and, moreover, was reflected in the discussions of the Convention on the constitution.

In reply to an earlier intervention by Deputy Burton, any references to the presence or absence of members are ruled out of order in the Seanad Chamber. All of us here have many conflicting pressures of parliamentary and political work. Fianna Fáil was not the only party with empty chairs so such comments are unjustified.

I want to conclude the discussion of these proposals. I would like some information from the Department of Finance on the estimated figure we are talking about. I do not believe the CSO does not have figures on travel agents and their turnover. The trade has been lobbying and it would not be a trade association if it did not know its own figures. It must have given figures at some stage and I would like to see them to find out the potential cost. If the trade is seeking a derogation, the Department should know the costs involved. A note outlining this should be sent to the committee as soon as possible. If we are going to impose a 3% cost we must find out the resultant cost to the consumer.

Ms Robson

We understood that Mr. Cooper was talking about the travel agents' scheme and Mr. Leahy was talking about the Department's paper on document 335, which he has not done yet.

I have some questions. We are two hours behind our agreed timetable and, in fairness to Deputy Ó Caoláin and myself who have made attempts to attend as much of the meeting as possible, we have not been honoured by the presence of many Fianna Fáil members.

I object to that remark, it is out of order.

I do not mean any disrespect to the members of the delegation from the Department of Finance but I have other commitments later and I understood that the carbon tax energy proposal was to be debated.

We had expected to sit until 3.45 p.m. to debate the carbon energy tax and we should have our business concluded by then. We ran late with this morning's presentation but members have considered the documentation and the EU scrutiny committee in the Dáil has looked at it and referred it to us for a second opinion so we will now conclude our discussion on the EU proposal. I apologise for the delay in starting, we had hoped to speak to the delegation before lunch and I thank them for attending today's meeting.

Sitting suspended at 3.05 p.m. and resumed at 3.10 p.m.
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