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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 1 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 16

Decentralisation Programme: Presentation.

The next item on the agenda is a discussion with officials of the Department of Finance regarding decentralisation. We have with us Mr. Dermot Quigley, principal officer, Mr. Paddy Howard principal officer and Mr. Eric Hartmann, assistant principal, all from the Department. Mr. Quigley will make the presentation to the committee.

I remind visitors that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege those of visitors are not so protected. I also remind members of the announcement I made earlier about not identifying officials by name etc. I now invite Mr. Quigley to address the committee.

Mr. Dermot Quigley

The Minister for Finance indicated in his budget 2000 speech that a new programme of decentralisation involving up to 10,000 civil and public servants would be initiated. The previous programme of decentralisation commenced in 1987 and continued through to the 1990s. That programme has involved the relocation of 4,000 civil service posts to 19 centres in 18 counties, as detailed in the appendix to the documentation circulated to committee members. By the end of that programme almost half of the numbers, that is, some 14,000 persons then serving in the Civil Service were located outside Dublin. The target of 10,000 which the Minister indicated in his budget 2000 speech should be viewed in the context of overall public service numbers which amount to 276,000. This figure comprises 96,000 in the health area, 77,000 in education, 34,000 in local authorities, 12,000, 11,000 and 9,000 in the Defence Forces, Garda Síochána and non-commercial State bodies, respectively, together with 35,000 in the Civil Service proper.

Approximately 40% civil servants are now located outside Dublin. In addition, given the nature of the services provided, it follows that a large proportion of health workers, teachers, local authority employees and defence and Garda personnel are also located outside Dublin. For example, in the health area, no less than 58,000 personnel serve in health boards other than the Eastern Regional Health Authority while 7,000 Garda personnel are located outside the Dublin Metropolitan Area. Since the Minister's announcement the Department of Finance has received submissions, representations and inquiries on behalf of some 130 urban centres throughout the country seeking to be included in the new programme. An Agreed Programme for Government states, "We will move forward the progressive decentralisation of Government offices and agencies taking into account the national spatial strategy."

There has been considerable consultation with interested parties and to date that has included bilateral meetings between the Minister for Finance and his colleagues together with the meetings at official level between the Department of Finance and other Departments, and meetings between the Minister for Finance and each of the staff unions to hear the latter's views and concerns. The Government requested the Strategic Management Implementation Group of Secretaries-General to provide advice on how the implementation of the new programme could enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of the public service. It also asked heads of relevant Departments to give their views on the experience of their respective Departments with the previous programme of decentralisation. The Minister for Finance invited staff unions to provide advice on the development of criteria for the programme.

The SMI Implementation Group has provided the Government with its views on the factors and criteria that the Government might wish to take into account. It sees as the broad objectives of a new programme: one, the economic and social regeneration of underdeveloped areas; two, the reduction of congestion in Dublin; three, the improvement of service delivery; and four, bringing administration closer to the citizen. The group feels that the following criteria are among those against which functions to be decentralised would need to be assessed. If decentralisation is to contribute to improved delivery of public services it should make business sense for the organisation involved. Accordingly, care should be taken to avoid a multiplicity of physically separate offices housing various functions of the one Department or office on the basis that this could lead to poorer communication within that Department or office, less corporate cohesion, and lower resource flexibility. The selection should focus on departmental units whose existence is viable in the long-term, that is, irrespective of any technological change that is foreseen.

The advantages of placing the areas of work, which might be new to the relevant Department in specifically targeted provincial locations, should be considered. Staff in decentralised offices should be provided with a development path covering such issues as training, work progression and promotion in order to create, and more importantly, retain, vibrant work forces in decentralised offices. The area selected should have an adequate infrastructure, such as residential and office accommodation, an energy supply of high quality and at a good level, and services such as banking, retail, health care and education together with high quality transport links to Dublin. Receiving locations must have the capacity to absorb a significant number of new residents and offices not only as a direct result of a decentralisation programme but also - as decentralisation is intended to be a pump priming initiative - as a result of incoming private sector organisations drawn to provincial locations by the Government's example.

The ability of the management of relevant Government agencies to change management structures and cultures to take account of the decentralisation of some of their functions must be considered. There must be available a higher standard of accommodation than under previous decentralisation initiatives due partly to increased expectations on the part of staff but also due to the major societal changes which have taken place in the interim. For example, the provision of creches and the question of child care would assume much greater importance now than it might have done in the late 1980s.

Given the large scale of decentralisation from Dublin the public service generally must be able to handle potentially very serious human resource problems with staff who choose to remain in Dublin and to move to new organisations within the Dublin area which will undoubtedly have different work cultures and ethos. The potential relevance of individual agencies and parts thereof to e-government, which has the potential to fundamentally alter the way in which Government agencies have traditionally delivered their services, must also be taken into account.

The heads of Departments whom the Government consulted indicated that the following factors ought to be taken into account in the assessment of functions for complete or partial decentralisation. Departments suffered a significant loss of corporate experience as a result of the previous programme as the overwhelming majority of decentralised staff had transferred from other Departments. Therefore, the ability of organisations to select appropriate staff and provide them with a thorough induction on arrival would be vital. Relocated units should provide viable career paths for officers with scope for lateral mobility. This might require functions of various Departments to be established in clusters around the country either in one location or on a regional basis.

It would be essential that there be an overlap between staff serving functions in Dublin, and staff replacing them post-transfer and for ease of administration. Extensive preliminary planning and a long lead-in time would be necessary to ensure minimum disruption to the operation of units and service to the public. The human resource and IT capacity of the Departments would have to be sufficient for the onerous demands placed on them during the decentralisation process. Agencies should have the ability to absorb extra costs, which are inevitable in the short-term at least, to cover training, extra travel, and extra staff and accommodation requirements during the transition period both before, and especially after, the actual moves.

The fourth strand of consideration concerned staff unions. Most unions support decentralisation. However, they have raised concerns on several issues and they have made various suggestions. Among those suggestions are notably the following: the programme should be managed in a manner that would ensure that there would be no adverse impact on the promotional opportunities of the staff remaining in Dublin. There should be a regional promotional structure. In choosing locations particular attention should be given to the Dublin fringe. The idea of having clusters of localised offices should be developed. The known preference of staff for provincial locations should be taken into account as far as possible. The efficiency of administration and the quality of service to the public should be maintained.

Finally, the criteria for choosing locations should be based on social and economic considerations. It should be mentioned in this context that the unions welcomed the Government's assurance that the long-standing voluntary nature of decentralisation would continue. There is significant overlap in the factors and criteria that have been mentioned under the three headings I have listed.

The Department of Finance noted the views of the interested parties outlined in the context of the Government's overarching objectives for the programme that were the improvement of the efficiency and effectiveness of public service delivery, the encouragement of economic activity in the regions and the reduction of congestion in Dublin. In connection with the last factor, the National Spatial Strategy 2002-2020 has indicated that, given a continuation of the existing policy, at least three-quarters of Ireland's projected population increase over the next 20 years or so is likely to happen in or near the greater Dublin area.

At this stage it seems to the Department that the following considerations might be significant in any choice of units or locations for decentralisation: one, units should in general be large and self-contained, sufficient to avoid disruption of agencies' business, and to provide staff with appropriate career opportunities. The places will have to be as attractive as possible as venues in which to live and work not only for decentralised staff but also their spouses, children and partners. Access to Dublin and its airport should be as good as possible to minimise time spent by public servants away from their decentralised units on official business.

The possibility of choosing a location for a particular function or functions of a particular agency with a view to a later transfer of more of the functions of the agency, or perhaps all functions, should be kept in mind. Chosen locations will have to have the necessary facilities of an environmental, infrastructural, housing, education, social and recreational nature and will have to have third level education within reasonable distance to entice public servants. Locations would need to have sufficient critical mass in terms of such facilities both to attract public servants and to be able to absorb their arrival. Centres need to avoid becoming "one-company towns".

The choice of locations will have to be in line with the national spatial strategy and in this regard the strategy has indicated that in order to foster a wide range of enterprise activity and employment creation nationally there needs to be assembled at strategic locations and in a targeted way, critical masses of population which will benefit from effective education, environment, transport, telecommunications, health care and leisure facilities. Looking forward, and considering how best to advance the policy of progressive decentralisation, the Government is likely to want to take account of recent developments in the area of family-friendly policies and the provision of child care support, the potential attractions to many public servants, their spouses and partners, and their dependants, in terms of general life style and quality of life factors, and specific benefits such as lower transport and housing costs in provincial locations. It will also take account of the efficiency improvements that might accrue from possible pooling of common services between Departments, such as accounts and procurement, and the potential benefits to the taxpayer arising from possible savings in Dublin office accommodation costs.

To conclude, it should be emphasised that having taken the above questions into account in its considerations it will be for the Government to decide not only on the extent of the decentralisation programme in terms of the numbers but also the particular functions and units involved and the timescale associated with the implementation of the programme. It should also be emphasised that it will be for the Government too to decide on the extent and timing of the necessary consultative process with all the many interests concerned.

Mr. Quigley's report would do justice to Sir Humphrey. There are 33 sub-heads remaining to be considered before we reach a decision on this matter. Was there any sound basis for the promise of 10,000 that was made in budget year 2000? The Department had made a serious analysis of the costs and benefits underpinning a decentralisation programme that led it to substantiate this as a credible and serious commitment when it was announced in 2000. All of the 33 items listed here could have been anticipated without any of these lengthy rounds of consultation. Can Mr. Quigley assure the committee that his Department has been working with maximum speed to implement the Government's commitment in this area? Are we instead witnessing a slow bicycle race in which everyone is either being told to keep their bicycles standing upright, or is in practice doing that, and not moving forward, as seems to be the case?

Mr. Quigley's presentation suggests that there is significant internal drag against the proposals. Is it the Department's view that the Government will soon be in a position to honour the commitment it has made of 10,000? From where will these people come? Mr. Quigley's analysis suggests that there are many areas where there is already maximum regional dispersal because of the nature of the jobs. Maybe he could give us some insight into who these 10,000 are? The spatial strategy lists hierarchies of towns. Has the Department decided even in principle what level in the hierarchy is needed to qualify a place as the location for significant services? For example, must two-thirds of those relocations be in towns listed at a given point in the hierarchy or higher? While this is a Government decision can Mr.Quigley give us any indication of the type of decision that is likely to be reached?

Mr. Quigley

The attitude of Departments has been supportive. The implementation group that consists of the heads of Departments and those heads with relevant experience of decentralisation came out in favour of further decentralisation. They had several caveats that I have mentioned but they were supportive and made their views known to the Government. The Minister's announcement in 1999 led to a considerable degree of consultation over quite a long period, at least 18 months to two years. During that time various parties expressed their views, and while it might be argued that the views, which I have paraphrased here, would have been obvious nevertheless the consultation process was required. Had it not taken place and the Government and Department were seen to assume a certain response from the relevant parties there would, for example, have been complaints of high-handedness.

On the number of civil servants, the target is 10,000 and the Government has not yet decided on precisely what that comprises or what agencies it might encompass. The Government has received advice and information as required but it has made clear that it alone will decide on the criteria, and the hierarchy of criteria and locations to be chosen in the context of this programme and of the national spatial strategy. It has also made clear to its advisers that it will choose when to make that decision and when to phase in its implementation.

The Government?

Mr. Quigley

The Government will take the decision.

Are there nearly 10,000 agreed? Is there a proposal as to the sort of hierarchy or framework that will make sense from the point of view of the national spatial strategy? Are these things ready for decision or is that a long time away?

Mr. Quigley

The proposals for specific locations, Departments, offices and agencies have been put to the Government but it has not completed its examination of those proposals.

Is it possible that there can be decentralisation within Dublin from high-cost accommodation in the commercial centre of the city to the outer suburbs, including my constituency of Tallaght, Clondalkin, or even the western suburbs?

Mr. Quigley

It is possible within the programme, and some of the individual unions have directed the Government's attention to the fact that the Dublin fringe, which includes the western fringe, is an area that should be regarded as a magnet for decentralisation as much as areas further out of the capital.

In that case is there not a ready availability of quite low-priced commercial accommodation there?

Mr. Quigley

Yes, the Government is aware that the accommodation costs on the outer reaches of Dublin are substantially lower than those in the city centre.

Is that not a priority under the programme and have suggestions not been made to that effect?

Mr. Quigley

Yes. Lower cost accommodation in rural areas and away from Dublin city centre is a factor. It should be stressed that in any sort of change or move involving civil service accommodation it is important not to make a direct correlation between the cost of the accommodation vacated and the lower cost of accommodation which is about to be occupied. The Office of Public Works can have difficulty handling it so neatly that it can get rid of offices at a stroke. When parts of office accommodation around the city are vacated there is a transition period when civil servants remaining in Dublin have to be moved around in order to leave complete office accommodation vacant and therefore available for sale.

It is below cost selling in the office accommodation on the western fringes of Dublin at the moment.

The Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, followed his December 1999 budget address with many remarks, each enthusiastically committing to the implementation of a policy of progressive decentralisation yet this has not happened. In February 2002 the Taoiseach, in response to a question that I tabled, said no announcements would be made before the general election but enough work had been done for a new Minister for Finance to advance the programme following the election. We did not get a new Minister and I wonder is that part of the problem. The project has not moved at all. Since this Government was in Opposition it has talked about "zero tolerance" but there is zero delivery on this issue. With respect to the officials here today, the people in the driving seat, the Minister and the Cabinet, are not advancing this project.

Deputy Lenihan has mentioned the potential of the Dublin fringe and other Dublin area members will take solace from the remarks in Mr. Quigley's statement regarding this. However, that has not been mentioned either in the Minister's pronouncements or those of the Taoiseach because they were looking at real decentralisation rather than relocation within the greater Dublin area. People would be alarmed to learn that the criteria in terms of the cost of office accommodation in the greater Dublin area would be a significant consideration. Many other factors need to be considered. In fairness to Mr. Quigley he mentioned those other points in his presentation.

Relocation in Dublin city might not meet staff interests with regard to transport, access and so on. It would be just as much of an upheaval for many people working within Government Departments to relocate to the fringe of the greater Dublin area, as to relocate to rural, provincial Ireland. Despite the argument that there would be cheaper office accommodation opportunities outside Dublin the individual employee and his or her family may not necessarily save anything by that move. Relocation to rural constituencies would be a significant bonus in terms of the cost of housing, and of so much else in their daily lives.

Mr. Quigley's concluding points note the factors of which the Government needs to take account, such as recent developments in family-friendly policies and the provision of child care support. It is the Government that has denied these essential and important services to much of rural Ireland. We have addressed these issues here before. Is it not rather like putting the cart before the horse to say that if a location has these services it will be better placed in the hierarchy of appraisal for suitability for decentralisation? One would have hoped that the advent of decentralisation could have opened up the opportunity to provide real and welcome family-friendly policies and child care provision in these locations.

Mr. Quigley's closing sentence: "It will also be for the Government to decide on the extent and timing of the necessary consultative process with all of the interests concerned", suggests that there is no sense of urgency on this Government's part with regard to a programme of decentralisation. It is clearly not a priority for Deputy McCreevy and his colleagues at Cabinet. I do not suggest that colleagues in the Government benches are not as interested as those of us in Opposition in seeing this project move forward but we must recognise that no one at Cabinet level is taking ownership of this. We have to recognise that nobody is taking ownership of this at Cabinet level and moving it forward. All we are offered in the closing remarks is a possible further consultative process. How much consultation is necessary, having regard to the extent of what has already happened? Surely there is adequate indication of suitability? The assessment is presumed to have been done within the Department. However, while we have a table showing the decentralisation programme from 1987, we have not been given a table identifying the particular sections in each of the Departments which could, as whole sections, be transferred.

On the criterion that "units should, in general, be sufficiently large and self-contained", where is the relevant list? Has the assessment not been carried out yet? That information should be before the committee today. Deputies in Opposition parties have to make assessments on the various Departments to identify what meets the criterion that "units should, in general, be sufficiently large and self-contained to avoid disruption of the agency's business" etc. Is that listing not already in the hands of the Department? Why was that information not provided to this committee? Is information which is critical to this project moving forward being withheld from the committee? I would like to know the answer. Has that assessment taken place and, if not, why not? If it has already occurred, why are we not getting that information today? That is the business of this committee and our roles should be properly respected.

We should have the opportunity not only to question but to act as an agency to press for the long-standing promises going back to December 1999 to be implemented once and for all to the betterment of the presentation of government throughout the length and breadth of this jurisdiction. People outside of Dublin should have a sense of participation and ownership over the governance of this area. We should not have the type of reference which appears in the opening remarks, with all due respect to the person who drafted it - the notion that we should not forget that we have health workers, teachers, local authority employees, defence and Garda personnel already located outside Dublin. God forbid that that would be the case. Go raibh maith agat.

Mr. Quigley

I note Deputy Ó Caoláin's views. I wish to emphasise that the listing of individual units, functions and Departments which might be subject to decentralisation is all part of the policy mix which the Government has before it. All of those matters are still under consideration by the Government and that consideration has not been completed. In fact, it would be difficult to take one without the other, because decisions as to which Departments might be affected are very much allied to what units they have and how that might be squared with the locations to which they might be stationed. In broad terms, consideration of those matters by the Government is still in hands and not completed.

If I may intervene again, I thank Mr. Quigley and his colleagues, who should not feel that my angst is directed at them - that is not the case. It is very much directed at those whom Mr. Quigley identified in his closing remarks, the people who will determine how this will move on or, indeed, whether it will move at all. If particular units of the various Departments have been identified, why can we not have that critically important information at this meeting? I would like to know what sections of Departments are being considered for re-location and what sections are appropriate for decentralisation. That information has not been spelled out.

We do not expect that entire Departments will move. Decentralisation has taken place previously and people are quite familiar with the process. However, I wish to be informed of the current assessment in relation to each of the Departments and the qualifying elements for consideration for decentralisation at this time. This committee is quite entitled to have that information provided to it. As Mr. Quigley has confirmed, that information has been ascertained and I welcome that. If it is being considered by others, this committee should be apprised of the listing and should have the opportunity of knowing exactly what is currently being considered. Perhaps Mr. Quigley will agree to furnish that information to the committee.

Mr. Quigley

I am not in a position to furnish the information and neither is the Department or any other Department, because material currently before the Government and individual Ministers is very much in the nature of draft proposals which, as I said, have not received any form of imprimatur at Government level. Accordingly, it would be inappropriate for the administration to release the information, in any way, in advance of the Government finalising its conclusions on the matter.

On Deputy Ó Caoláin's point, I fully understand that the committee cannot have information which is still subject to policy decisions by the Cabinet and Ministers. However, I would have thought there is a great deal of factual statistical information in the Department which could be made available to the committee. For example, the list of areas from which submissions were made should be available. I see no reason for secrecy on that aspect.

Consultation with staff unions was also referred to. Perhaps they may have given indications as to the size of town and the type of facilities to which their members would wish to transfer. That would simply indicate the unions' perspective and it might not be a matter on which the Government would be required to make a decision. No doubt, they have made presentations to the Government in that regard, perhaps indicating their thinking and preferences in the matter.

On the last page of the document before us, there is mention of the criteria which the Government is likely to take into account, such as family-friendly policy, potential attraction for public servants, efficiency improvements and cost savings. I am disappointed to note the absence of reference to improved quality of customer service. The whole approach appears to be on the basis of suitability to public servants, rather than focusing on customers, as one would expect.

Is there information of a factual nature which can be made available? For instance, if a member of the committee had submitted a request under the Freedom of Information Acts, seeking all files currently available, would we have received more information than is now before us? Would an individual Joe Citizen have achieved more than we have, in terms of available information, notwithstanding the fact that there are issues before the Government for decision? I would have thought that more information could be provided to the committee.

Mr. Quigley

I will pick up on a number of points. On the Chairman's last point as to the emphasis in the documentation on the convenience, so to speak, of public servants as opposed to the provision of service to the public, I wish to stress that I pointed out in the documentation that the Government has an over-arching objective of relieving congestion in Dublin as well as improving service delivery. I should add that the SMI implementation group was very conscious of the fact that one of the advantages of decentralisation would be to bring administration closer to individual citizens.

On the type of documentation one might receive on the basis of a freedom of information request, most of the information which would be of interest would, in the opinion of my Department, not be allowable for release under freedom of information as it is heavily bound up with ongoing consideration by the Government on policy matters. I should add that FOI requests have been made to my Department in relation to, for example, lists of representations made in relation to specific locations. We have not had any difficulty in releasing that type of factual information. For example, there was a recent request in relation to representations made concerning Westmeath. There was no difficulty in giving that information under FOI and we would provide such information. However, on papers being used by the Government in its consideration of locations and units on which decisions are to be made, that would be regarded by the Department as not appropriate for release under FOI. Reference was also made to the views of staff unions on criteria and specific locations. In that regard, it is fair to say that the unions did not come forward with specific recommendations with regard to units or locations. Broadly, they were asked for their views as to what criteria should be used by the Government and the individual unions provided their opinions on those criteria. However, they did not submit to the Department any definitive ideas on numbers or specific units or specific locations to which staff in such units might transfer.

I welcome Mr. Quigley and his colleagues to this meeting. I assume the only bicycles now remaining in the Department of Finance are those used for health purposes. The Government decision in 2000 with regard to decentralisation of 10,000 civil servants has been widely welcomed. It was, perhaps, the most discussed Government policy decision of recent times and there has been favourable comment throughout the country. The Government is to be complimented on its decision, following which the next step is towards its implementation.

I note that the criteria being used include economic and social regeneration of underdeveloped areas, reduction of congestion in Dublin, improvement of service delivery and bringing administration closer to the people. From my perspective in a constituency located in the Border, Midland and Western region, the primary consideration is economic and social regeneration of underdeveloped areas. This is particularly applicable to my home county, Roscommon.

However, I have one concern with regard to the national spatial strategy which, perhaps, I can tease out somewhat in the context of this meeting. If developments are confined to the areas identified as gateways or hubs, large sections of the country might not be seen as appropriate locations for civil servants. It would be a very serious matter if that was the criteria to be used. It would have the effect of excluding all of County Roscommon and, obviously, that would have very serious implications. While I have not examined the wider effects, I have no doubt that other counties would be similarly affected. I use County Roscommon as an example simply because I can speak of it on a more informed basis than any other area. That county was classified as an economic corridor linking centres of population such as Athlone, Sligo and the Tuam hub. If the criteria were to be used - I would welcome comments on it - is it possible that towns such as the county town of Roscommon can be considered in the same light as those locations identified in the spatial strategy? I am sure others would also welcome information on this.

I appreciate the attraction of existing office space and a friendly town environment. On the child care aspect, I do not believe that any recent Government, other than the present one and the last one, has made significant investment in that area. Some €250 million has been allocated towards child care and we are very proud of the excellent facilities being provided in towns, villages and even into rural areas where people have shown initiative through community projects. That is a most welcome development. I also understand the importance of third level educational facilities, infrastructure and ease of access to the city.

However, those criteria alone should not be the only ones, although we could identify with most of them. The county town of Roscommon is only 15 minutes from a third level facility and from the N6 dual carriageway. It has an excellent rail service, an acute hospital, excellent leisure facilities, including an 18 hole golf course, conference and hotel services and swimming facilities. It will have vacant Government office space by March of next year. It would be unfortunate that a town of that description would not be considered because of criteria being confined to gateways and hubs. That would be a very serious situation for a county town such as Roscommon.

I wish to put a final question to Mr. Quigley and his colleagues: If the Government were to ask them how soon a decentralisation package involving 10,000 civil servants could be available for public announcement, what would be their reply?

Mr. Quigley

On the first question on towns such as Roscommon, the document before the committee makes reference to the national spatial strategy and the promotion of strategic locations such as hubs and gateways. There is a considerable range of criteria which the Government has to use and I draw attention to one in particular: As a result of work undertaken by the SMI implementation group and the heads of relevant Departments, one of the considerations which the Government is to have before it is that "the possibility of choosing a location for a particular function or functions of an agency with a view to a later transfer of additional functions should be kept in mind". There is, of course, already a core of decentralised Government offices in provincial locations. One can see advantages in building up, as it were, a campus system whereby departmental units at provincial locations would be added to over a period of years. For example, the fact that the Department of Education and Science had a substantial presence in Athlone was a major factor in the decision to locate a further part of that Department relatively nearby in Tullamore. Accordingly, the situation of towns such as Roscommon on corridors between gateways would not necessarily exclude them from consideration by the Government for decentralisation.

On the question as to how soon a package could be available, the Government has asked for advice and information from various Departments in that regard and that has already been provided. It is for the Government to decide on that package, in the light of the information it has received. Obviously, if it needs more information, it will obtain it. Hypothetically, if the Government were to decide tomorrow or next week to introduce a certain package of decentralisation, there would be considerable post hoc consultation to ensure that the staff members concerned are willing to relocate to where they are posted or, alternatively, that they can be replaced. Inevitably, therefore, a fairly thorough implementation process will be required after a package is decided by the Government.

Commentators and others interested in this subject should allow for the fact that, once the Government has decided on a package, implementation may be on a phased basis and, as in the case of the last programme, considerable work will be involved in agreeing arrangements with heads of Departments and staff associations and organising accommodation, including the rental or purchase of buildings. All of that will take some considerable time.

Following an hour's discussion on this matter, I do not consider myself any better informed than when we started. I accept that, on policy decisions, Mr. Quigley cannot say very much, as he cannot pre-empt the actions which a Minister may or may not take. Much of the criteria refers to promotional prospects, human resource issues and the very important quality of life issues. Various terms have cropped up during the discussion. I assume the reference to "critical mass" relates to the number of people needed in regional or cluster centres to facilitate human resource and promotional issues, without undue disruption to people's lives.

If Mr. Quigley and his colleagues are not in a position to make available to the committee what they have gathered from union consultations and their own deductions, perhaps they can assist the committee to reach some conclusions by providing information such as the size of the existing units listed in the document, the nature of the work involved and the number of people working there. Perhaps they can also provide information on the issues which have been listed as the relevant criteria, such as complaints and problems which have been encountered with existing units. I assume there is considerable variation in size of units, from small, isolated units to large, isolated units and various combinations. Is there a range of issues which have cropped up since 1987 on which information can be provided to the committee? Such information might assist the committee in reaching its own conclusions. Otherwise, for the purposes of media comment as to how we see decentralisation moving forward following this discussion, the most we can say is that we have not been given any information with regard to departmental policy discussions. I hope the Department officials can enable the members of the committee to be somewhat better informed on this matter.

Mr. Quigley

In response to Deputy Twomey's questions, "critical mass" refers to the fact that a sufficient number of civil servants would be required to move. It also relates to the requirement that the locations to which decentralisation is taking place must be sufficiently large to have a wide range of facilities already in situ, such as recreational, educational, infrastructural and telecommunications, so that they can absorb the numbers involved and are attractive to the employees concerned and their families. Spatial strategy is relevant in the sense that one cannot have every type of facility in every town in Ireland - certain selectivity and prioritisation has to take place. Obviously, there will be greater emphasis on the hubs and gateways than on the places in between.

On complaints or comments on existing arrangements, I believe the Department of Finance would be in a position to provide certain information it has on the merits and demerits, as seen by the various interests concerned, of the Government's existing decentralisation programme. For example, unions have made complaints and comments to the Department over the years. Similarly, heads of Departments with experience of decentralisation gave their views. I see no objection in principle to providing the committee with factual information in that regard. I propose to set about getting that information and will forward it to the committee secretariat as soon as possible.

That would be of great assistance. At least, it would give us some basis for making our own deductions. No doubt, in our respective regions, each of us could identify larger towns which would have most of the facilities required. Some information on past problems might be helpful in looking to the future.

Mr. Quigley

I will arrange for that.

To get down to the bones of this issue, the fact is that some 130 urban centres which have made submissions to Government to attract some form of decentralisation are keenly interested in the outcome and are anxious to be informed as to when decisions will be made. I believe those 130 urban centres are probably distributed over all electoral constituencies and, therefore, every member has an interest. Irrespective of the argument put forward, whether by Deputy Finneran from an area outside a hub or by myself in relation to a constituency with a hub or gateway, certain general criteria have been established. In some shape or form, the Government will consider the policy issue on the basis of those criteria and, no doubt, its own political input also. What interests me is the information currently before the Government - that is still not clear to me, despite the various ways in which the questions have been put and answered at this meeting. I take it that all of the information required for the Government to make a decision on Departments and units willing to move is now available to the Government. Is that correct?

Has the Department of Finance a list of the 10,000 people? Has it consulted with them and what number does it require for the Government to make a decision on that? Has any official within any Department made a recommendation on which of the 130 urban centres might be suitable or those that are definitely not suitable? Has that list been narrowed down?

Plans cannot proceed without accommodation. In the past when a decision was made to decentralise local authorities were asked to provide the site and the Office of Public Works decided on its suitability and erected the building. Is that policy being pursued in this instance and, if so, how much work has the Office of Public Works carried out on the availability of sites and property? Will the Government be able to draw conclusions from what is available to it? Will the Government find itself in a position when it makes a decision on decentralisation of having to negotiate with staff on the transfer and then find accommodation?

Substantial sums of money have been ploughed into every Department to promote the process of e-government. Surely part of that process should be encouraging staff to work from home or away from one's base? How much has the Department achieved in pursuit of that goal? Is it not an indication of some form of unwillingness that we cannot achieve the full package of e-government or decentralisation as quickly as the private sector can? Since the announcement was made most companies located in high cost centres, whether in terms of property or labour, moved to rural locations where they can find cheaper accommodation and labour and where their employees can have a better quality of life. That has happened almost overnight since 2000.

Some of the State agencies have been directing businesses to expand outside Dublin city, even into another county. Information and communication technology has assisted in making that happen, yet one of the biggest employers in the State, the Government, is not able to cope with that sort of movement and decision vis-à-vis decentralisation. I do not have a full understanding of where we stand on this or what else is required to bring about a final decision in this instance.

Mr. Quigley

At this stage the Government has all the information that it has asked for and it would regard itself as having sufficient information to come to a decision. The timing and nature of that decision is entirely up to the Government. Proposals have been put forward which would enable the Government to decide on a decentralisation programme of the 10,000 that has been mentioned. As a corollary to that a decision on the size of the decentralisation package would have implications for the locations chosen and for those of that 130 which would not be successful. As the Government has not yet finalised the decisions the question of the procedures through which the accommodation will be provided for the public servants being decentralised have not been arrived at. In many cases those decisions are crucially dependent both on the size of individual units and on the functions being transferred to the country and the Departments involved.

A considerable amount of money has been spent on e-government and it is bound up with the issue of decentralisation in the sense that one takes account of certain aspects of e-government for example, the common pooling of databases, the ability of Departments to function over dispersed locations as the Department of Education and Science does over three locations. The Government recognises that e-government has a vital role to play in this process. In the submission to which we referred we talked about common pooling of resources in the procurement and accounting fields. The common uses of databases by Departments in various locations around the country, for example health and social welfare, will be a product of the e-government process. The implications of the e-government process on decentralisation and vice versa are bound up with the decisions that the Government will take in its own time on the exact components of the decentralisation programme.

The Government has the wherewithal to make decisions on the components of full decentralisation and the programme when it so wishes. Once it takes decisions in principle on the matter there will be significant implementation factors to take account of both with the various interests involved and the provision of facilities in the receiving locations will have to be worked out. It is not possible for me or my colleagues to give any timescale on that at present.

Has the Office of Public Works carried out any analysis of what is available? Has that information been made available to the Government? Is Mr. Quigley saying that there are 10,000 people willing to be transferred?

Mr. Quigley

The Government has been provided with a package which would involve the relocation of that number of civil servants. I am not saying that 10,000 individual civil servants have made themselves available. I understand that the number who have expressed interest exceeds 10,000. The unions have expressed general interest. Admittedly, many people have expressed interest in moving to a variety of locations, they wish simply to leave Dublin. So there is a great deal of double count in the calculation. I am not aware that the Office of Public Works has done any specific planning. To an extent it would not be possible for it to do so in the absence of firm Government decisions on exact sizes of units and the functions to be decentralised.

May I ask one or two questions? Mr. Quigley mentioned in passing the number of existing civil servants in Dublin who would like to be transferred to a different location. Has this important aspect of the matter been taken into consideration? Are the locations to which such people might like to transfer seen as relevant? It seems to me that such information would be very beneficial. Hundreds of people from Portlaoise, who commute to Dublin each day by train, car or bus, or who stay in Dublin during the week and return at the weekends, would like their jobs to be transferred to Portlaoise. I am sure the same is true of Cavan and other towns near Dublin. I would have thought that this aspect would have been mentioned as a relevant factor in this debate.

I get the impression that the number of civil servants in Dublin who are seeking a transfer is not clearly known. If a person states that they are interested in a transfer to either Portlaoise, Athlone or Kilkenny, three separate requests for transfers are counted. I am sure the Department's databases are capable of identifying that one person is seeking a transfer in such a scenario.

Mr. Quigley mentioned that double-counting is a factor in this regard. Could the committee receive from the Department statistics outlining the number of individuals who are seeking a transfer out of Dublin? Such information could help us to determine whether the figures match up.

I would like the delegation to clarify another statistic at this point, or else by way of correspondence after this meeting. I am somewhat confused by the numbers of civil servants mentioned in the first paragraph of Mr. Quigley's presentation. He said that "by the end of that programme almost half of the numbers, that is, some 14,000 persons then serving in the Civil Service were located outside Dublin". I take that statement to mean that about 7,000 civil servants were located outside Dublin.

Mr. Quigley

I meant that by the end of the programme, almost 14,000 civil servants - almost half of the then total of 28,000 - were located outside Dublin.

Some 14,000 of the present total of 35,000 civil servants are already located down the country?

Mr. Quigley

Yes, that was the case until the 1990s.

I am asking about the number of civil servants outside Dublin at present, as a proportion of the total of 35,000.

Mr. Paddy Howard

The figure in question is approximately 14,000.

That means that there are about 20,000 or 21,000 civil servants in Dublin at present.

Mr. Howard

Yes.

The transfer of practically half of the civil servants in Dublin to other locations will involve a massive programme. Is that the reason for the delay? It would be easier to transfer 20% of the total, for example. The target of transferring 10,000 civil servants means that half of the civil servants in Dublin at present will be transferred. It is great and I hope it happens, but it is highly ambitious.

Mr. Quigley

I would like to make two points. The Government has recognised that the target of transferring 10,000 workers is a daunting one. It should be pointed out that 14,000 civil servants are based outside Dublin, which means that there are 21,000 civil servants in Dublin. The Government's target, however, is to transfer 10,000 public servants to other locations. This means that people working for non-commercial State bodies, for example, may be transferred. The numbers initially involved are quite small - we are talking about 9,000 at the moment. It is fair to say that the vast majority of the 10,000 public servants being decentralised will be civil servants. I accept that a sizeable chunk of the total number of civil servants in Dublin will be involved. The Minister for Finance and the Government have always recognised that the target of 10,000 is an extremely ambitious one. This is particularly evident when one considers the number of civil servants involved in the first major programme of decentralisation, which involved the transfer of about 4,000 civil servants over a nine or ten-year period.

May I ask about that matter? One of the problems encountered by members of the committee, in our constituencies, is that a higher proportion of people in lower grades seem to be located in regional offices. We hear regularly of people who are given a stark choice when promotions are being awarded. They are told that if they do not take a train to Dublin each morning at 6.30 a.m., they will have to stay in the lower grades. It is important that entire units are transferred, so that there will be sufficient scope for promotion within the region, if not within the existing office. People are being given stark choices. It seems that the key people in the higher grades, who make decisions and are offered promotions, continue to be located in Dublin. I can safely say that a very high proportion of the 14,000 civil servants located outside Dublin are employed in the lower grades of the Civil Service. This is not good for the economic development of the regions, as they are not benefiting from the spending of higher-paid civil servants, who are more likely to have third level education. There is an imbalance in this regard.

Mr. Quigley

The imbalance is recognised. The unions, the heads of Departments who have experience of decentralisation and the SMI implementation group argued that a career structure had to be developed in decentralised offices. One of the criteria laid down in respect of a unit which is to be decentralised is that it cannot almost exclusively comprise clerical workers. There has to be career progression - the phrase "career pyramid" was used in my document - so that a decentralised office cannot be made up of low-skilled workers, as they are referred to in industrial terms. A mix of clerical workers and officials from the higher echelons is needed, not only to ensure that there is a path of career progression for the civil servants involved, but also in the interests of the economic development of the region in question.

I would like to make a final comment. When the Government's decision is announced, does Mr. Quigley think the programme will be planned over a number of years, or does he feel there will be a "big bang" and it will all happen together? It is obvious that there are cost implications. It is fine if Mr. Quigley cannot answer.

Mr. Quigley

I am not at liberty to give exact details in the absence of a Government decision on the matter. It is probably fair to say that the implementation of the "big bang" approach to decentralisation would have to be achieved on a phased basis, in administrative and industrial relations terms.

Does Mr. Quigley believe it is feasible to move several core Government Departments entirely from the city of Dublin? Could the Department of Finance, for example, be moved totally to another location? Is it feasible to do that in respect of several Departments?

Mr. Quigley

I think it is probably fair to say that the Government is considering the feasibility of moving entire Departments, including small Departments, to a location outside Dublin. It is also fair to say that a number of arguments against such a move were put forward during the representations that were made to the Government. It was argued that senior civil servants and Ministers need to be close to the Government, which I presume will remain in Dublin. The Civil Service needs to have pretty close communication with the Oireachtas committees and the Attorney General.

A strong metaphysical argument is that the presence of higher civil servants is perhaps needed in Dublin, so that they can be involved in influencing official opinion and contacting the movers and shakers in other parts of the economy, such as the business and education spheres. This may not be true in respect of the third level institutions, as they are somewhat regionalised. There is a general feeling among heads of Departments that certain difficulties would be associated with moving entire Departments to other locations. Although there have been great advances in telecommunications and other forms of electronic contact, it is possible that the level of contact between Departments will decrease if there is widespread decentralisation. Engaging in networking is part and parcel of the work of a senior civil servant.

I thank Mr. Quigley and his colleagues, Mr. Howard and Mr. Hartmann, for their time and their attendance. I appreciate their presentation and their responses to our questions. I acknowledge that they are constrained in the level of information they can impart, but it is in the nature of a committee of Parliament to seek as much information as possible. I am sure the delegation understands that we have to do our job by seeking more information than they were allowed to give today. It is a big issue and there is a commitment from the Government. Every Deputy has an interest in it, so we will be referring back to it.

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