JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 21 Apr 2004

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

Chairman

Next on the agenda, under correspondence, is the EU scrutiny. The Sub-committee on European Scrutiny has sent the committee a list of documents and proposals considered and decisions taken at a meeting of 1 April 2004. The committee has referred two proposals to the committee for further scrutiny. The first is No. 1 COM (2004) 103 concerning the investigation conducted by the European anti-fraud office. It is regarded as being of some significance. The negotiation period is expected to be late 2004 and no implementation date is anticipated yet. If the committee agrees, we will scrutinise this proposal as we have been requested to do so. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 2 COM (2004) 104 mirrors COM (2004) 103 which we have just dealt with and concerns the EURATOM Treaty. Does the committee agree to scrutinise this proposal? Agreed.

The sub-committee has drawn our attention to COM (2004) 75, but has not recommended that we scrutinise it. The proposal concerns an agreement between the EU and the Swiss Confederation regarding the taxation of savings income in the form of interest payment. Is it agreed that the proposal does not warrant scrutiny by the committee? Agreed. It is agreed that none of the other proposals considered by the sub-committee on 1 April warrants scrutiny by this committee.

I am conscious of the large amount of reading material provided with each EU proposal that is sent to the committee for scrutiny or information. Each proposal is accompanied by advice from the sub-committee's adviser, an information note prepared by the Department and an explanatory memorandum prepared by the Commission. It has been the practice of the committee to seek a further briefing note from the Department each time it agrees to scrutinise a proposal. To avoid overloading Members with paper, I suggest that in future additional briefing notes should only be obtained when discussions with officials are imminent. In other words, it should be circulated with the agenda for the meeting which officials will attend to explain the proposal in detail. We have been supplied with documents now and traditionally we would ask the Department of Finance also to provide a briefing note. It may not be coming before the committee until two months later and, from a practical point of view, if we got the brief note closer to the meeting at which we will consider and scrutinise a particular proposal, it would be more beneficial. Is it agreed that we will get the briefing note closer to the time we will discuss it? On occasions we have got the briefing note early but by the time we came to scrutinise the matter, developments had occurred and we had to get an updated briefing note. It is more appropriate to get an up-to-date briefing note in advance of scrutinising the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed

The clerk will ask the Department of Finance to alert the committee of any significant changes in the timetable for agreeing proposals. This will ensure that we schedule our work in advance of the work being dealt with by the EU. It happened once last year that it had been dealt with before we scrutinised it and we do not want a repeat of that.

Invitations have been received from the Competition Authority to attend the conference in Dublin Castle on Thursday, 29 April to mark European competition day, and from the Irish Insurance Federation to attend the conference on the theme, Closing the Irish Savings Gap, in the Conrad Hotel, also on 29 April. The conferences are open to all and the question of expenditure and the committee's travel budget does not arise. I suggest that any member who wishes to attend either conference should contact the clerk after the meeting to register.

The third draft of the committee's work programme for 2004 has been circulated. A number of changes have been made to the draft since it was last discussed. The section dealing with the select committee has been re-drafted to reflect the fact that a number of Bills in the finance Estimates have already been dealt with. State bodies which fall within the remit of the committee have also been listed on foot of information received from the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance. Bodies which have not been listed by the Departments but the Estimates of which are dealt with by this committee are the Office of the Attorney General, the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Director of Public Prosecutions. The clerk is examining this matter further to establish whether these offices can be included in our work programme. The list of issues for examination has been updated to take account of decisions of the committee. These issues have not been prioritised by the committee. If members would consider the relevant document, we can discuss the work programme.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I asked that the Irish Payment Services Organisation, IPSO, be included in the work programme and invited to the committee in the context of Britain and Ireland being the two worst countries in regard to electronic banking. Is this on the agenda?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Was a meeting agreed?

Chairman

We do not yet have a timetable.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Will we have a presentation from the organisation?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

The presentation should be circulated so that we have a good attendance.

Chairman

The issue is on our agenda. The first item on the draft work programme was the meeting with the National Pensions Reserve Fund. I suggest that be removed from the programme as it has been dealt with. The next item is the completion of the report on policies of commercial banks concerning customer charges and interest rates. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe mentioned the money transmission system with particular reference to electronic payments. Should we deal with the two items together, as they are directly connected, or keep them separate?

Deputy Burton

Since we began that examination, an elaborate and expensive IFSRA has been established, with the Office of Consumer Affairs within that, which I understand now has 90 staff. In the context of streamlining the process, we are anxious that customers of banks and financial institutions do not get ripped off. To further that, IFSRA should have a direct e-mail link with this committee in regard to any of its reports or publications. While IFSRA is well resourced and regularly publishes material, we, as the scrutiny committee, do not know of such publications until we read about them in the newspapers.

We must give thought to how we can be informed as to what IFSRA is doing. There should be a regular line of communication and, for instance, we should be linked to the agency by e-mail in the same way as the directors of the Central Bank perhaps are. There should a way of streamlining the exchange of information, which is necessary because the agency is charging significant fees to every customer of every bank and financial institution. It is an elaborate structure of regulation. While this limits our job, the oversight which this committee could provide is, therefore, all the more important. We listed all of this and started the investigation before IFSRA came in. I am open to any suggestions which might be made in this regard but we ought to have a direct line of communication, especially as IFSRA is so well resourced through levies on the banks and, ultimately, charges on bank customers. While I am open as to how we do this, it is important we act.

Chairman

IFSRA this month issued an elaborate report on credit charges.

Deputy Burton

It was a very good report.

Chairman

It was sent to me. Did every member receive it?

Deputy Burton

We got it after it was issued to the media, not before that or at the same time. At a minimum, we should get reports at the same time they are released to the media. After all, it is politicians who will be contacted about them. If publications are placed on IFSRA's general website, this should be advised to us. It would be easy to include the committee on its text messaging system or alert e-mail system to let us know that particular reports are to be issued. It should let us know shortly before issuing a report so that we may comment if interested.

I emphasise this because of the significant resources being invested in IFSRA, which in many ways replaces the detailed scrutiny this committee might otherwise provide. We need greater oversight of how the regulatory function operates and, to do that, we need to know about the reports and other publications of the agency.

Senator O’Toole

I agree. Like Deputy Burton, I do not have an exclusive means for dealing with this but think it would be best if committee members were alerted by e-mail that particular documents were now available on websites or otherwise. It would not be necessary to send out every document because we would get snowed under. However, to meet our requirements, we would need to know that particular documents were about to be published and where to find them. Publications would not need to be sent to every member's e-mail account but could be sent to the clerk of the committee, who could alert us as required. While I do not mind how this is done, Deputy Burton's point is crucial in that we need early access to publications if we are to comment on them.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I am alarmed by what Deputy Burton said about IFSRA building up a high level of staff and a huge cost structure for which consumers must pay through levies. We should have IFSRA to the committee for a discussion.

Deputy Burton

I have no problem with that. However, this is the elaborate and expensive structure established by the Government supported by Deputy O'Keeffe.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Who was looking for this structure apart from the Opposition?

Deputy Burton

I am not commenting on it, good or bad. I am simply saying it is the structure of regulation now in place.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

The Deputy made a good point about the expense of the structure and I admire her for that as her party was extremely eager for the establishment of such regulatory authorities. However, we should have IFSRA attend the committee for discussion as we have certain functions in regard to the agency.

Chairman

The good point has been made that while the committee commenced the drafting of a report, IFSRA is now in charge of it. Therefore, all that we must do from here on is to scrutinise IFSRA

Deputy Burton

To some extent.

Senator O’Toole

The agency is doing fantastic work. However, one problem is that the issues it is raising are not of major public interest. For instance, the agency had a major statement to make on the danger of geared investment funds which, although it only has a small application, could ruin a household very quickly. I would like the agency to tell us its plan of work as it would be useful for us to know what it will be dealing with over the next year. We could then get briefed on that. I believe the person in charge is Mary O'Dea, who is very good in terms of the comments I have heard her make on it.

Chairman

The next item on our work programme——

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Are we inviting them to come before the committee?

Chairman

We will invite them in. We will not set a date because I met them a while ago. They had produced their first strategy statement and I understand we are meeting the finance——

Deputy Burton

Do you agree with my comment about the alert system? I do not want tonnes of documents. I just want an alert system, the same day as the journalists or even the day before, to say that X report is coming out.

Chairman

And the Deputy can follow it up directly if she chooses.

Deputy Burton

Yes, exactly.

Chairman

I agree with that.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Is there a report on our correspondence today?

Chairman

That is two weeks' old now.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

What is it?

Chairman

It is about credit card charges.

Senator O’Toole

Chairman, a minor addition to No. 3. When we talk about money transmission, I would want that to include international transmission. I have been looking at that area recently and it is appalling. There are three different levels of charges if one wants to transfer money from one EU state to another. It takes six weeks for an Irish cheque to clear through the European system. That is unnecessary and we need to examine some of those aspects. There are three different stages of payment. Under one level of payment the money will be transmitted within five days, under another it is done within three days and under another it is done on the day. As far as I am concerned it is a matter of simply pressing a button either way.

Chairman

We will include that.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Can we put Nos. 2, 3 and 18 together?

Chairman

No. 18 concerns the Bankers' Federation and IFSRA, which is the one topic. The next item is policy of the Taoiseach's strategic management initiative, Delivering Better Government. That is part of the brief of this committee. It was suggested at an earlier meeting that we should try to have a meeting once every two months on different sections in the Departments of Finance and the Taoiseach. The strategy statement from the Departments of Finance and the Taoiseach can go with that. I understand strategy statements are prepared by the Secretaries General and therefore Nos. 4 and 5 are linked documents. We will include those as a single item.

Item No. 6 concerns benchmarking and public sector pay. Is that history now?

Senator O’Toole

In fairness, it depends on the way one looks at it. I had a lot to say about it on the last day but it might be a good time to tie it in with No. 4. It is supposed to be about delivering better service. Each sector had a quality group - I have forgotten the name - to assess the implementation of the changes agreed under benchmarking.

Chairman

The verification groups.

Senator O’Toole

The verification groups, yes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Why do we not group these items together?

Chairman

We are doing that now. We will have it done in a few minutes. We are moving down the page. There is only one page.

Senator Mansergh

It seems to me that benchmarking is a subject that has fallen off the political agenda. A few months ago it was going to ruin the public finances entirely but we do not hear much about it now. Perhaps we can discuss it in the calmer political atmosphere. It is a concept that has relevance for the future and perhaps we can look at it dispassionately and see what lessons are to be learned from this particular phase.

Chairman

Is it agreed to include benchmarking with those items? Agreed.

I am not sure if the Standards in Public Office Commission has yet appeared before any Oireachtas committee. We invited representatives in last year but because of the High Court cases in regard to Cork South-Central and Wicklow, they said they could not while those cases were ongoing. Politicians have a view on what the commission is doing.

Senator Mansergh

Did they not——

Chairman

They are finished. They did not want to come in while those cases were ongoing.

Senator O’Toole

I have strong views on this, but is it an appropriate issue for this committee?

Chairman

It comes under the remit of the Department of Finance. The Public Offices Commission regulates electioneering.

Deputy Burton

There are issues——

Chairman

To my knowledge its representatives have not come before any Oireachtas committee and it would be a useful exercise both for them and for us.

Senator O’Toole

Am I right in saying that a sub-committee of the CPP is established each year to deal specifically with ethics in public office and the Public Office Commission? It distributes the document——

Chairman

They are standing committees of the House.

Senator O’Toole

Yes, but they are the ones that normally engage with the Public Office Commission. Is that not correct? I am only raising the matter because I do not want to——

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Is there any amending legislation proposed in regard to the Public Offices Commission?

Senator O’Toole

My understanding is that in the Schedule to the legislation it is required to be referred to by the Members' interests committee, which I believe is also a sub-committee of the CPP. It is the committee which makes the recommendation. If it is our business, it is our business.

Chairman

It does have an obligation to consult with that committee but in terms of the Oireachtas committee, it would report publicly through the Department of Finance.

The national development plan is on the agenda but nobody appears interested in it.

Senator O’Toole

I am happy to give that a month.

Chairman

Nobody ever appears interested in that. I thought it was a very important item.

Senator Mansergh

I would be interested in it. It is a vast capital programme and we should be interested in the way it is proceeding.

Chairman

We are well past the half way stage now.

Senator Mansergh

Nonetheless——

Senator O’Toole

We still have not turned the sod on the railway line to Navan.

Chairman

No.

Deputy Burton

The ESRI report is now six or seven months' old.

Chairman

We will leave it on the list but as a low priority.

Senator Mansergh

I am not sure I agree with its being a low priority. I think it is quite a high priority.

Chairman

On the review of freedom of information legislation, do members want to deal with that issue in the near future?

Deputy Burton

Yes. In regard to this item and the previous item, the problem is partly about process. In other words, the national development plan review could be a major discussion, and obviously FOI is much easier to deal with, but we should invite in the freedom of information commissioner for a discussion on the way the Act is now operating. I propose that and I would like that to happen sooner rather than later.

Chairman

I understand a report is due to be issued by the office in May. We should have the commissioner in immediately following publication of that report.

Deputy Burton

Could we write to the office saying that as soon as that report is issued, we would like the commissioner to come in?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It is only a few weeks since we dealt with the amending legislation.

Chairman

Last February. Time flies.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

We nearly bored the whole country with it.

Chairman

The next item is Ireland's role in terms of the international monetary fund and the World Bank. There are two items of legislation before the committee.

Deputy Burton

If I recall correctly that item also arose as a consequence of the committee being written to by Dóchas and a number of development organisations and bodies. I understand they want to make a presentation to this committee at some stage. It is the type of issue that probably would not take more than a few hours.

Chairman

Every year the Minister for Finance makes a statement to the World Bank, which likes to have its input in advance of that presentation by the Minister. They wrote to us last year but that item comes up every year.

Deputy Burton

That is normally in September.

Chairman

Before the summer.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

As members we do not travel often——

Deputy Burton

We will go to the World Bank.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I was going to suggest we should go to see the workings of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, which are very relevant. We cannot have those experts here so can we travel to see them. Surely there are a few euro left.

Chairman

There are. We have not spent much of it.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I know an election year is very expensive but——

Chairman

We will go after 11 June.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Are you agreeing to that?

Chairman

This committee, traditionally, has not gone on any——

Deputy Burton

I went to the Shelbourne for a conference on behalf of this committee.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

And you came to the Four Seasons for another conference.

Deputy Burton

I think that one was free to the committee.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

That is an important issue.

Chairman

Either the European Central Bank or the World Bank.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

The World Bank is the more important one because we spend a lot of money on the Third World as well.

Chairman

I am conscious that traditionally the committee has not engaged in much travel and we will try to put together some such programme at the time of the annual meeting in September or some other date.

We could link examination of the growth and stability pact with a review of the national development plan. They are connected in terms of expenditure under the growth and stability pact. We will list items 8 and 11 together. We will deal with tax relief on investment in certain types of properties and other tax reliefs and item 22 together.

Deputy Burton

I ask that we set up a procedure to deal with these three items. I have raised this here and in the Dáil on a number of occasions. The Estimates process and discussions in the run-up to budget 2005 will begin anytime after June. We need to have a fairly detailed discussion on that. Members will recall that we had a good discussion on the pros and cons of section 481. It is appropriate that we should have a discussion on the Estimates process well in advance of the budget in December. We should invite in the Chairm an of the Revenue Commissioners and the appropriate officials. We should also get details from the Revenue Powers Group on the people and companies it indicated it is profiling. It is also undertaking work on which would be interesting for the committee to get details.

For some reason I do not understand, but which I would like to ask members of that group about, they have not repeated the survey of the 400 top paid individuals, perhaps because they are all now non-resident, since 1999-2000. They are important policy questions in this regard. I would like that to happen as soon as the local elections are over in June because that would give us a basis for our continuing discussions with the Minister for Finance on this issue in the run up to the budget.

Chairman

We will take Nos. 12, 21 and 22 together as they are all directly related. It would be useful for the committee to invite the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. I am told that in respect of the tax forms for this year, the Revenue is seeking to collect some information that heretofore was not collected and, therefore, the information was not in the system. Revenue is putting forward proposals in respect of tax forms to commence collecting that type of information, but that is only step one.

The next item is the report of the Commission on Public Service Pensions with particular reference to the position of teachers, which we have yet to receive. It is in relation to legislation on that issue which has been enacted.

Senator O’Toole

I wish to raise one issue on which I will take the Chairman's advice. The two groups who were disadvantaged by that legislation were teachers and politicians. I cannot find anybody in either of those two groups——

Chairman

There is a good deal of a cross-over between the two groups.

Senator O’Toole

Senators will be aware that I tabled an amendment in the Seanad covering both those groups. I cannot find a Member in either House of the Oireachtas, except one Member who is strong and in Government, who supports the provisions of that legislation. Even that one Member confided to me in a weak moment that he recognises it will have to be changed at some stage in the future, but it will not be changed by a Kildare man, as he put it. If people examine this closely before the next election, I believe it will deter them from entering politics. It does not affect any of us here, therefore we have no interest in it. We are all covered under the old provisions.

The legislation implies that every 64 year old teacher, irrespective of the state of his or her health - it is not a matter of choice - should be able to take a class of 30 or 35 senior infants or a post-primary sixth year PE class, which is not physically possible. That provision should be examined. If we are trying to encourage people to enter political life at a young age, as in the case of the Tánaiste who entered politics around the age of 20, and if such a person remains in politics and were to lose his or her seat in his or her mid-50s, he or she would have no source of income and might well be unemployable for the remaining ten or more years of his or her working life. That position is wrong. I have no personal interest in this matter, nor has any Member in the room anything to gain from this, but somebody needs to talk to somebody about it. If this is not the appropriate committee for address this matter, I will accept the Chairman's ruling on it, but it is crucial that it should be addressed.

Senator Mansergh

I do not want to repeat the debate I had with Senator O'Toole and I will keep away from the subject of teachers. I am just deeply sceptical of the notion that anyone is deterred from entering politics because he or she has examined the pension arrangements and found them unsatisfactory. A separate point is how we should look after people who find themselves in the situation described by Senator O'Toole.

The economic situation here has been transformed and compared to the difficulties people encountered ten or 20 years ago, I do not believe people in similar circumstances would face problems as acute provided the current broad situation continues.

Chairman

I understand all the points but I do not think that between now and the next general election this issue will be revisited. From a pragmatic point of view, I suggest we note the point but we all must accept the reality that there will be no change in the next 12 months. We will take that matter off the programme for the moment.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I do not believe that legislation will deter anybody from entering politics.

Chairman

No.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

However, it has implications for a person who is in politics for only a short term. Such a person would have lost entitlements in a previous employment, whether in teaching or banking, on leaving it to enter politics. On losing his or her seat, he or she would have nothing to fall back on unless he or she was to get another job.

Senator O’Toole

I accept Senator Mansergh's point. I acknowledge that such provisions would not deter a person from entering politics, but such a choice is not only made by the person concerned. It has implications for one's family. This is an issue that must be explained to the family of a person with a pretty good career who is considering making a decision to serve in public life. I accept the Chairman's ruling.

Senator White

Another important issue is that of teachers on taking leave continuing to get paid some money from the position they held in a school.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

That is no longer the position.

Senator White

It is.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

That provision is no longer in place.

Senator White

Is the Senator sure about that?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It is no longer the position. That is why I made the point in support of Senator O'Toole's point. A person on taking leave from a public job cannot be replaced by another person temporarily, as was the case heretofore. Is that not the position?

Senator White

As far as I know, teachers still——

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

No.

Senator White

Is the Deputy sure about that?

Senator O’Toole

The replacement teacher's salary and the pension contributions of the employer - a notional figure of 19% applies - must be paid for out of the amount of the money that was previously used to pay the teacher's salary.

Senator White

Do primary teachers on such leave not still get paid money in respect of the position they held in a school?

Senator O’Toole

I do not think so. The reality is——

Senator White

I will check that and I will know tomorrow the answer to it. If the position is as I believe, it is not right.

Senator O’Toole

No, I do not think they do.

Chairman

The next item is income equality within the State, the genesis of which I am not aware. I think Deputy Burton raised it. We have had representatives of MABS, the money advice bureau, before the committee. Therefore, we will say that has been dealt with.

The next item is civil and public service decentralisation. A number of members raised this matter. We will keep it on our work schedule.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I do not know how relevant it is at this time as it is nearly done and dusted.

Chairman

It is well under way.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It is.

Senator O’Toole

Deputy Burton has a strong view that people should be invited in to offer their views on it. I see no reason for not doing that.

Chairman

I will leave them on the list. We have covered a number of items. That issue comes up in the House every other day.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I do not believe it is a priority.

Chairman

We will put it down as a low priority.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

It should be going faster to get them into different towns in rural areas.

Chairman

The next item, No. 16, is the economic aspects of having two currencies in use in the island of Ireland. That was proposed by Deputy Ó Caoláin. Can we link that with the banking issue and IFSRA?

Senator Mansergh

Frankly, it is a separate issue. We could invite the Northern Ireland chamber of commerce to come before the committee and give evidence. We should have a public discussion about it. I believe the business community in Northern Ireland would love to be in the eurozone and there would be no harm in highlighting that.

Senator O’Toole

Senator Mansergh has made a good suggestion. We should also invite the Northern Ireland section of the CBI, which would probably have a clear view on it.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

No. 16 would link in with Senator O'Toole's suggestion about international money transmission. There is an international aspect to it.

Senator O’Toole

I will think about it but I do not believe it does.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Members of the committee are not accurate about this. The British people firmly support their currency and the only people in favour of changing to the euro are those in the London business community. They are not the majority of people in the UK.

Chairman

We will keep that item as suggested. Number 17, e-government, should be linked with No. 4, the strategic management initiative. In fact, Nos. 4, 5 and 6 can be linked.

Senator O’Toole

What exactly was being considered under e-government?

Chairman

Somebody suggested that we should examine e-government but that should come under the strategic management initiative, the strategy statements for each of the Departments and the information society. We discussed No. 18 in connection with the banking situation. With regard to financial and economic management, there are umpteen debates in the House on economic management. It is not a specific topic for this committee. If somebody has a specific proposal, we will come back to it. No. 20 is the role of the Irish and European central banks. That can be linked to our IFSRA discussion.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Does not the IFSRA now regulate the Central Bank?

Chairman

It deals with financial services. The Central Bank is the over-arching body.

Senator O’Toole

They have different roles.

Chairman

The IFSRA is a subsidiary of the Central Bank, as it were. That is how I describe it. We should link that with our discussion of the IFSRA. We also wish to include a discussion on the Estimates process because it is unsatisfactory every year. That is an item for discussion. Finally, a number of bodies are under the remit of the Department and I have never seen them report to an Oireachtas committee, for example, the Office of the Attorney General. I do not mean to discuss legal issues with the Attorney General but the management of the office. I also have in mind the management of the Office of the Chief State Solicitor. I am talking about how the directors general of those offices manage their offices, decide briefs and so forth. In the case of the Director of Public Prosecutions, for example, we could discuss who the office engages and what procedures it has. The director of the office would be my first port of call.

We should put those offices down together. They are important State offices that have never been before any Oireachtas committee. This committee approves their Estimates so we should discuss their procedures with them at some stage.

With regard to the Estimates process, the joint committee could usefully suggest a better way for the Houses and the select committees to deal with it. We are not discussing the Estimates of a Department but the process. We might recommend some changes. With regard to the Revenue Commissioners powers group, we are taking Nos. 21 and 22 with No. 12, tax relief on investments in certain types of property.

They are the main issues. Our work programme will probably condense to eight or nine key items. We will try to put a shape on them and at our next meeting decide which ones to proceed with first. That completes the consideration of our work programme.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Is this the work agenda for the next 12 months or less?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I find it hard to attend the committee meetings on sitting days in the Dáil. When one is from a rural constituency, there are many other issues on one's desk. The Chairman had to come to my office this morning to remind me about this meeting. He saw the amount of work I had on my desk. We have to allocate properly. It is hard labour doing everything and we are not supposed to be doing hard labour, as the committee knows, given that we are Dáil Deputies. We should allocate the business in the committee to Mondays or Fridays. It would be more businesslike and free up time.

Senator White

I believe it should be on Monday.

Senator O’Toole

It makes little difference to me because I am here on Mondays anyway. However, I strongly believe that elected representatives should be in their constituencies for at least half of the week. The media have run away with this issue. I do not have an interest because it does not matter to me whether the meetings are on Monday, Friday or any other day. I am here anyway.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I do not mean every Monday or Friday, just one or two Mondays in the month.

Senator O’Toole

Yes, but Members have organised their week in such a way that Mondays are allocated for dealing with constituency issues.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

The dual mandate is gone.

Senator O’Toole

I saw nothing wrong with the dual mandate. However, that is not the issue. Under that legislation, certain new structures and protocols were established for engagement between Members of these Houses and the local authorities. That is often done on a Monday. Furthermore, many Members have clinics on a Monday.

I am probably the wrong person to say this because I am not involved in this and will not be a Member of the Dáil. However, I do not like what has happened in some democracies in Europe where politicians are out of their constituencies. An impassioned debate is taking place in Westminster at present about whether what was described as family friendly hours are, in fact, family friendly. The members are considering changing the sittings back from a five day week to working early and late in the middle of the week to give people more control over their time. I accept the media will say it is great to work on a Monday.

Senator Mansergh

I have considerable sympathy with that point of view. If a little space is needed, 11 a.m. or 12 p.m. on Tuesday would be better. Members are usually making their way to Leinster House on that day and I do not envisage a problem with them having to arrive one or two hours earlier.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I have always given my constituency work priority but I do not have clinics on Mondays. I hold them at the weekend and, perhaps, once a month on Sunday morning. When I come to Dublin I have to meet Ministers and do other work. I like being on this committee but I find it hard to attend its meetings because they are always held on sitting days.

Senator White

Generally speaking, they do.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

In addition, the plenary sessions are being neglected because there are other activities in the House in which one may wish to participate, while there is something on at the same time on this committee. I am sitting on other committees also.

The committee system is in a crisis. It is not working and neither are the plenary sessions. The matter must be examined. We should have plenary sessions twice a month and committees twice a month. The whole structure should be changed, otherwise the system will collapse. Environmental legislation is going through the House and other Bills are being passed on Committee Stage. Constituents, including very influential people, tell me that I have let some legislative provisions go through and I reply, "Did we?" I knew all that before when I was in my office. I could see what was happening to a Bill on Committee Stage in the days when we had only black and white monitors. I could then go down and say what I thought or ring the spokesperson to say that such a matter was not relevant to what we were doing.

These matters will have to be dealt with in a more pragmatic way. I sympathise with Senator O'Toole regarding constituency work.

Senator O’Toole

I am totally disinterested in it. I will be here anyway.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I thought the Senator had an interest in constituency matters and how relevant they are.

Senator O’Toole

I do appreciate the work of my colleagues in political parties. I think they do a lot of work.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

From the ordinary person's viewpoint, the committee system is collapsing. I am talking about all the committees, not just this one. I am trying to put this one right.

Senator White

This one is not collapsing.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

This committee is the most important and influential one in the Oireachtas. It is the most businesslike committee that deals with everything of relevance to the punter in the street.

Senator Mansergh

What is wrong with meeting on Tuesday morning?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

There is nothing wrong with Tuesday morning but when I come to Dublin I have to prepare programmes and I have to meet the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, but it is a job to find him. I may also have to meet the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, and it is twice as big a job to find him. When I ring his secretary, I am told he is——

Senator Mansergh

They are attending the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday morning.

Chairman

Yes. The only point I want to make on this issue——

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I do not think this committee would have enough work for every Monday or Friday morning, but why can we not allocate a Monday and a Friday once or twice a month? That is the way to do it.

Chairman

We will come back to that issue because I would like to have a fuller attendance if we are to make a decision on it. It is difficult to get a quorum here on non-sitting days.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

Today there was a crisis.

Chairman

Yes, and the Dáil is sitting but it is not a full session. It is a special session, so many people are not here. The point is well made and we will return to the matter when we discuss the completion of our work programme.

The last item on the agenda is the consideration of draft report on EU proposals COM (2003) 613. The last meeting heard a presentation by officials on EU proposals COM (2003) 613 and agreed that a draft report should be prepared. The draft report has been circulated. Is it agreed that the draft report be the report of the committee on this proposal? Agreed. In accordance with Standing Orders, the report must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. I propose that copies of the report be forwarded to the sub-committee on European scrutiny and the Minister for Finance. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Is there any other business? No. The next meeting of this committee is scheduled to take place at 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 April 2004. That is our normal Wednesday afternoon slot. As there are now five EU proposals awaiting scrutiny, I suggest that we should hear from officials on document No. 822 which concerns the place of supply services. This proposal is regarded as being of major significance and is a priority of the Irish Presidency, so I am asking that we should complete it next week.

We have already received a briefing on document No. 789 which concerns the keeping of quarterly non-financial accounts by the institutional sector. I understand that discussions are well advanced on this matter and I suggest that we should also consider that document next week.

The select committee will consider Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach the following Thursday, 6 May 2004.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.24 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 April 2004.