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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 2005

Decentralisation Programme: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Finbarr Flood, chairman of the decentralisation implementation board, Mr. Michael Errity, Ms Áine Stapleton and Ms Irene Kirwan and thank them for attending. We received a copy of Mr. Flood's opening statement, which we appreciate, yesterday but we ask him to record it for the committee.

Before the discussion commences, it should be noted that while comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. I remind members not to make charges against, comment on or criticise an individual outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Finbarr Flood

I am pleased to have the opportunity to meet members of the joint committee today in my capacity as chairman of the decentralisation implementation group.

I am aware the committee met last year with my predecessor Mr. Phil Flynn to discuss the work of the group during 2004. I take this opportunity to thank Mr. Flynn who, with the assistance of the implementation group, oversaw a number of important initiatives to get the process up and running and to build a good foundation for further progress. Members have also had the opportunity to discuss the programme with the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon. I will, therefore, concentrate on informing members of recent developments in the implementation of the programme.

The main role of the implementation group is to oversee the development of an overall, robust and workable planning framework for decentralisation, with each Department and office taking responsibility for its own detailed implementation arrangements. I am happy to report that real progress is being made on all fronts. Significant numbers of civil servants will move next year under the programme with further large movements in 2007 and 2008. Decentralisation for those who have volunteered will soon become a reality.

When taking on this role, I was struck most forcefully by the scale of the implementation task. This ambitious programme involves the ultimate relocation of more than 10,300 public servants to 58 towns outside of Dublin. It touches on many of our most important public services involving the relocation of more than 50 organisations, including the ministerial offices and headquarters of eight Government Departments. It is a challenging objective but one I am increasingly confident the public service can not only deliver, but deliver well.

Many aspects of the programme are worth re-emphasising. This is a popular programme. We have received more than 10,600 applications from civil and public servants wishing to relocate. The most reassuring aspect is that we continue to receive new applications every day, averaging at approximately 100 per month. During the 14 months following the closing date for priority applications, more than 1,400 people have applied for decentralisation on the central applications facility. We anticipate interest will increase further as building and movement timetables firm up.

Movement right across the Civil Service has been a feature of previous successful decentralisation. Recent references to only one in nine staff moving with their posts represents only part of the picture. On this occasion also, when one takes account of the numbers of civil servants willing to change from their current Department or office in order to fill a post in the new location, the level of interest is very strong. This is particularly true in the case of what we refer to as "the early movers". Staff new to a Department or office will require training, a task which is being given high priority in preparation for decentralisation. Such staff will bring with them a range of experiences and skills that will undoubtedly stand them and their new Department in good stead. There also will be new recruits to the Civil Service who will receive the usual range of induction and other appropriate training.

The property elements of the programme are proceeding at a brisk pace. I have circulated a property update from the Office of Public Works for members' information. The report indicates that site or building acquisition negotiations have been completed in 13 locations. I understand contracts have been received for an additional ten locations, that suitable sites have been identified in a further 15 locations and that negotiations to acquire have either commenced or are close to commencement in these locations. By this time next year, builders will be on site in 16 locations. Each location requires that a brief of requirements be agreed with the organisation concerned, site selection be concluded, detailed tender specifications be drawn up and a public procurement process be completed.

Discussions have progressed on a number of human resource and industrial relations issues. Actual movement of staff within and between Departments and offices is now underway with approximately 950 staff already assigned to posts which will decentralise. Discussions are ongoing in other areas and I will touch on some of these in a moment. All Departments and offices have produced implementation plans setting out the detailed arrangements they are putting in place to plan for relocation while also ensuring business continuity and effective delivery of services to customers. The plans are comprehensive and involve detailed reviews of business processes and the logistics of the move. The group is impressed with the prudent approach being taken by each Department and office in relation to assessing the risks involved and the adoption of appropriate measures to manage business risk. The level of planning has, of course, advanced further in the case of the early movers, an issue with wish I will deal later.

In addition to progress in these specific areas, there are two overall factors which I believe will drive forward this programme and make it work. The first of these is the professionalism and dedication of our public servants. The implementation group has held a series of meetings during the past few weeks with the Secretaries General of Departments involved in the programme to discuss the planning framework, to assess progress to date and to hear about the challenges arising and steps proposed to address them. Following this round of discussions, I come to this meeting today confident that senior civil servants are leading the implementation of this programme in a professional and carefully planned manner and are availing of opportunities to improve their business processes and delivery of services in conjunction with decentralisation.

The second is the experience of decentralisation which the Civil Service has built up over the years. At present there are in excess of 13,000 civil servants working in a variety of locations outside Dublin, with significant concentrations in Cork which has almost 2,000, Limerick with more than 1,100 and Sligo with 800 civil servants. Members have heard evidence of the successful decentralisation of our revenue collection, social welfare and agriculture finance services. While not of the same scale, these were significant moves from which we have built up an expertise in inducting large numbers of new staff into an organisation, in effective transfer of knowledge and skills and in ensuring quality customer service in the transition phase. This learning is invaluable in planning and executing the current programme.

I would like also to mention a particular group of public servants who are playing a constructive role in supporting the programme. Staff in decentralising organisations or sections who are remaining in Dublin are key players in making this process work. They have quietly and proficiently played their part in preparing implementation plans, arranging for hand-over of skills and knowledge and are supporting decentralising colleagues in their new roles. This professionalism and commitment to quality public service has long been a tenet of the public service and is daily demonstrated in the implementation of the programme.

It has been said previously that the initial timescale mooted for the decentralisation programme was ambitious. That initial timeframe, however, has been very helpful as a catalyst for progress. The focus on three years initially greatly assisted in getting preparations off the ground quickly and has been instrumental in delivering the progress evident to date.

One of the first tasks of the implementation group was to map out phasing arrangements for the programme. The group identified 21 Civil Service locations across 17 counties for the first phase of moves. These locations were selected on the basis of an assessment of progress on property acquisition, numbers applying and business readiness to move. The selection was also informed by the implementation plans prepared by each organisation and the group's recommendations were accepted by the Government.

We have also put indicative timeframes on a further 24 Civil Service locations which were not announced in the first phase of moves. I do not see the programme as divided into discrete phases, however. While I expect to see the most fervent preparations taking place in organisations with early mover status, the remaining organisations will continue to plan their business, staffing and property solutions in readiness for moving. The moves are phased over the period 2005 to 2009. Present indications are that approximately 1,000 civil servants will relocate by end 2006, 2,500 will have relocated by end 2007 and 4,000 by end 2008. Almost 7,000 civil servants are due to relocate under the programme by end 2009. These numbers and dates are not, and cannot be, fixed in stone. There can be no guarantees with a programme as large as this, involving as it does, a large number of inter-related tasks. That is our best assessment at this stage of what it is reasonable to expect from a practical perspective. There will undoubtedly be variations, of which we are conscious. We will continue to monitor the situation to ensure there are no undue delays and that where there are, they are properly managed. A number of minor advance moves have already been made this year to Sligo, Portlaoise, Thurles, Tipperary town and Na Forbacha in Galway. The group will next turn its attention to the remaining public service bodies included in the programme. Progress is also being made on the relocation of 400 members of the Defence Forces to the Curragh and Garda personnel to Thurles to bring the total number of staff there, including civilians, to 200.

The issue of effective transfer of knowledge and skills is central to business continuity in the transition phase. A central feature of planning to date has been the documentation of business processes in preparation for the transfer of knowledge to and training of new staff. The committee will be aware from the figures provided by the Department of Finance that staff are now being assigned to decentralising posts. The early assignment of staff on a phased basis is a priority for organisations to ensure they balance the pace of integration with their business needs and customer service obligations. The lead-in time recognises that in many cases only a small number of staff are moving with their present jobs and that adequate time must be allowed to build up expertise with new staff. This is what has been done successfully in previous rounds of decentralisation and I am confident it will happen again this time.

Each early mover organisation is also canvassing those who have expressed a second or lower preference for particular locations. This is allowing opportunities for staff to change their first preference to an early mover location which is undersubscribed.

The group is paying close attention to developments in the ICT area and will continue to do so in the coming months. In our November 2004 report we specified the need for detailed planning of the decentralisation of ICT jobs by individual bodies. This planning is ongoing. Where possible, the Centre for Management and Organisation Development in the Department of Finance is providing assistance and guidance for ICT managers across the Civil Service. In this regard, a protocol for filling ICT posts across the Civil Service has been developed and presented to the relevant trade unions for consideration and discussion.

Departments and offices are in the process of identifying staff who wish to move to locations with ICT areas. Skills matrices are being developed to facilitate such transfers. Proposals for training and certification of new entrants to ICT areas are being developed, while analysis of the various options for data centre usage is taking place. Protocols for familiarisation and hand-over periods between staff are also being developed, while detailed analysis of staffing and phasing approaches is under way to facilitate eventual development of detailed implementation plans by those Departments and offices with decentralising ICT areas.

While industrial relations matters relating to the programme are dealt with by the Department of Finance, the implementation group is fully aware of developments in this important area. Discussions have allowed progress to be made on a number of human resources and industrial relations issues which has laid the groundwork for the assignment of staff from the CAF to the decentralising organisations.

Discussions are continuing between public service management and staff interests in other areas. The committee will be aware of some of the issues to be addressed regarding professional and technical staff who represent approximately 10% of the total number of posts decentralising. While the professional and technical grades do not represent a large part of the early mover cadre, their position is more complex than that of the general Civil Service grades. The level of applications from these grades has been lower than from the general Civil Service grades. Historically, there has been less flexibility to transfer to posts in other organisations where a particular professional or technical grade is not represented. Discussions will continue on these issues in the next few months.

The other main issue which requires attention at this stage is that of State agencies. In its November 2004 report the group recommended that seven State agencies receive initial priority attention in implementation of the programme, while still ensuring progress for the remaining organisations. These seven State agencies represent approximately 720 posts. Progress is being made in a number of them. Members will be aware, however, that there are a number of outstanding issues concerning the movement of State agencies. This is a voluntary programme and it is essential to address the concerns of all staff, including management of the agencies, in order to bring all concerned along with the programme. In our most recent report to the Minister for Finance in June it was our view that a more tailored approach was required for State agencies. It is primarily the responsibility of the board and senior management of each agency to advance the programme and I look forward to seeing more progress on this front. My assessment of progress in State agencies will also be informed by the next iteration of their implementation plans which I hope to receive by the end of the year.

Staff remaining in Dublin are key to the success of the programme. Moves of Dublin staff to Dublin posts are already taking place on a bilateral basis as posts become vacant through drawdown from the CAF. Arrangements are in place to allow the reassignment of staff, within Dublin, whose posts are being decentralised and who wish to remain in Dublin. A facility has been established through the Public Appointments Service to allow staff remaining in Dublin to express preferences as to the organisation in which they would like to work. This will continue throughout the transition phase of the programme and my group will continue to monitor progress in this priority area in the coming months.

The property costs of the programme are being managed professionally by the OPW. The objective is that the property acquired at regional level is matched over time in cost terms by the disposal of property currently held in Dublin. The OPW reports regularly to the implementation group on all the property aspects, including costs. At the request of the group, the Department of Finance has issued guidelines to Departments and offices on the capture of data on non-property costs, including transition costs such as knowledge transfer and training, as well as any ongoing costs and savings. Costs are being captured as they arise and the overall position will be assessed periodically by the group. Details will also be provided on a regular basis for this committee as part of the regular reporting arrangements entered into by the Department of Finance.

Implementation of the programme is proceeding well. This is a popular programme with over 10,600 applications from civil and public servants wanting to move from Dublin or their existing provincial location. We are continuing to receive on average 100 new applications per month. The property elements of the programme are proceeding very well with negotiations completed or significantly advanced by the OPW in 23 locations. A number of human resources and industrial relations issues have been progressed, allowing the assignment of decentralising staff within and between Departments and offices. Implementation plans have been prepared, setting out the detailed arrangements Departments and offices are putting in place to plan for relocation, while also ensuring business continuity and effective delivery of services to customers.

I hope I have given the committee a flavour of progress to date. It is difficult to cover all of the issues in a brief statement but I am happy to take questions on all aspects of the implementation task.

I thank Mr. Flood for his presentation. The report states industrial relations matters are being dealt with by the Department of Finance and property matters by the Office of Public Works and that implementation plans are being drawn up by individual Departments. It seems Mr. Flood's role is one of facilitating the flow of information, co-ordinating and reporting, rather than taking a hands on approach to managing the decentralisation process. Will he explain the role of the implementation group?

Mr. Flood

I disagree with the Chairman. In the past few months we have met senior officials and the Secretary General of every Department with one exception. They have produced business plans, outlining the problems and risks. We have also asked them to provide answers. We will also query the OPW on all reports it gives us and the Department of Finance on the industrial relations reports it gives us. The point is we do not and will not get directly involved with the trade unions. However, we do not stand back. The Secretaries General had two hour long sessions with us during the past six weeks when they brought us through their plans in detail. We indicated problems of their making, or that were relevant to the Department concerned, that they had to deal with. Where we felt we could help on other issues, we did so. We take a hands-on approach.

I am happy to hear it. Different threads were picked up. Perhaps more work is done by the group than——

Mr. Flood

It is an interesting question. In a programme such as this, if we were to get involved in all of the details, we would never be able to take a macro view of what is an extremely complex plan.

I will make a final observation. Mr. Flood stated his most recent report to the Minister was presented in June. That was six months ago. This committee often requested monthly information. One hopes for quarterly reports on such a major issue as this; six months seems to be a long period between reports. That is merely an observation. If Mr. Flood wishes to respond, he may do so.

Mr. Flood

I note the Chairman's point.

I welcome Mr. Flood and members of his group. I know he took on difficult tasks before. I believe he supports a club which I also support which has been through difficult times and at which he played a great role in past years. I am sure this does not present a special challenge in dealing with difficult issues.

According to Mr. Flood's presentation, his job is to develop a robust and workable planning framework. Perhaps he does not want to comment on this, but it seems his task was made immeasurably more difficult by the fact that no business case was presented for any of the proposed moves before they were chosen. No consultation took place with any of the people involved. No reference was made to the spatial plan that was supposed to be the spine of a successful regional strategy and there was not even a Government memorandum. It is extraordinarily difficult for politicians to keep track of who is accountable for anything against such a background. I am sure Mr. Flood had difficulties. As reflected in the Chairman's question, it is not clear where responsibility ultimately lies. Who is answerable for the success or failure of the programme? The Minister for Finance and Departments routinely deflect questions to Mr. Flood's group. I can give some examples if requested. There is a serious problem regarding accountability. With respect, I welcome the occasional appearance of the group before this committee, but it does not represent real accountability for a programme of such a scale and complexity as this.

While I am a strong supporter of the idea of decentralisation, I worry that in some cases it will be an expensive error. Is there a risk that the easiest way to prove political intent is to build and lease property? Looking at the report the group is committed or about to commit to sites in three quarters, 38 out of 53, of the locations chosen. Is there a framework that requires certain milestones to be reached before the group will irrevocably commit to purchasing sites or buildings? By way of contrast, as Mr. Flood admits, only one in nine people within the organisations concerned wants to move, while one in ten, 950, has been assigned. This means three quarters of the property commitments are close to being met, but only one tenth of staff assignments have been made. We know that eight out of nine people within the organisations in question do not want to move. That is a source of concern and signals a future problem of half-filled buildings with many buildings in Dublin still occupied by staff unwilling to move. That presents a real difficulty regarding cost.

Through parliamentary questions I asked Departments about non-property costs and received a uniformly "no" answer. No Department knows anything about the non-property costs involved. According to what Mr. Flood stated, two years into the three year programme the Minister for Finance issued guidelines asking that these costs be identified. Is it late in the day to begin to identify such costs? This is at the core of any commitment to move. If a stadium was rebuilt, would the costs of moving be identified? One would not only examine the structure being built. One would consider how the entire move would be managed. These costs have not been identified by any Department.

We are also running behind in redeployment. We know that eight out of nine people requested to move want to stay in Dublin. Mr. Flood has stated the group has some arrangements in place to redeploy the people concerned. The answers to my questions to Departments suggest virtually none of them has been redeployed. The number redeployed to new tasks in each Department is extremely low and amounts to single figures. I understand there is no central applications process. Staff are not told to where they will be moved. Mr. Flood has indicated it is now possible to allow them to express preferences on where they would like to move. How we redeploy is a key issue. It is all very well discussing how we employ at the new location, but how do we redeploy the eight out of nine who will not move? We do not want to end up with staff in Dublin shadowing jobs done around the country and sitting at desks without proper assignments. We should be much further down the road on this issue.

The issue of highly skilled staff within organisations also concerns me and was skated over in all of the presentations I have seen. Mr. Flood has indicated that fewer people with high technical knowledge have offered to move. No suggestion for a solution to this problem has been made. Mr. Flood has stated discussions are ongoing. With only one year to go, in theory, before the programme is completed, we need to know the extremely important organisations which will move which will be able to retain their technical capacity. I saw some of the risk assessments mentioned and they are not as positive as the spin put on them. Many of the assessments envisage serious problems in the organisations maintaining their capacity to do their job following the loss of key strategic staff. I do not see how this problem will be solved. It concerns me that a serious risk assessment is not being made.

I will give examples of the take-up in some of the key organisations we propose to move. We do not have all of the information because we have not seen the details. However, only one person out of 90 in the National Roads Authority wants to move, and two out of 100 in both the Irish Aviation Authority and the Public Appointments Service. No one wants to move in Bus Éireann, the Irish Sports Council, the Arts Council and Fáilte Ireland. In the Valuation Office five out of 100 want to do so. This means that less than 1% of staff in the eight organisations mentioned want to move. These are strategic organisations which are important to the way we run State business.

We are ploughing ahead on the property side but way behind in making it work. No one is willing to state moving some of the organisations in question is impractical. Mr. Flood used the phrase "a more tailored approach" regarding some State agencies. It is the first time I have heard this phrase used. Does Mr. Flood consider the risk regarding any State agency is so great that it is not viable? Bus Éireann was presented as an organisation which was proposing to move more staff than we knew existed. According to the presentation, 200 staff are to be moved to Mitchelstown. I understand Bus Éireann signalled at a very early stage that it did not have 200 staff to move to Mitchelstown, but this figure has remained in the schedules. However, we have been told that it will happen. We need to cut out the spin and get down to practical and hard-headed delivery of decentralisation where it will work. People must be willing to put up their hands if it is too complex for an organisation and approach it in a different way, for example, to start afresh and identify a more tailored approach. There is a need for honest dialogue on how to make it work, rather than a determined approach to finding property solutions, leaving the more difficult problems in a state of limbo.

Mr. Flood

Many questions have been raised and I will try to answer some of them on a general basis.

In regard to property, the position outlined in the documentation provided for members is that no building will be purchased and no commitment will be made when there is a clear question mark about the bodies being available. We are very alert to this possibility. The authority to purchase a building or incur costs is subject to sanction from the Department of Finance. We are quite satisfied the problem identified by the Deputy will not materialise.

What critical milestones must be passed?

Mr. Flood

As set out in the documentation, provision is made for valuation reports on each option by professionally qualified valuers to establish the prevailing market value; the technical valuation of all potential suitable options, including architectural, structural engineering, mechanical, electrical and fire and security; planning permission, advice and reports which will be sought where appropriate. On the basis of the relevant technical valuation and other reports, a preferred option will be identified and sanctioned. Sanction will then be sought from the Department of Finance to negotiate the acquisition.

With respect, this has nothing to do with whether an organisation is in a fit state to move; these are just prudent ways of acquiring property which could remain vacant or half empty, while staff remained in Dublin occupying space. The idea of freeing space to pay for new accommodation would fall asunder. What I mean by milestones is that we must know a Department is job fit to move before we make significant commitments.

Mr. Flood

That is happening. The Deputy referred to a number of Departments and organisations where the take-up was low. However, in a number of Departments the number to be decentralised is over-subscribed, the business plan is in position and it is logical to go ahead and purchase properly. Equally, problems have arisen in ICT and professional areas which must be tackled.

I became involved in the programme in April and it is not dissimilar to programmes pursued in my previous job in Guinness, a worldwide organisation. Programmes are put in position, problems arise and one cannot cater for everyone. It was never envisaged that 10,300 individuals would be decentralised, but that posts would be decentralised. Problems will arise in a voluntary scheme if people decide, for whatever reason, that they do not want to move. One must tailor the programme to accommodate this; otherwise, it will be a compulsory scheme. That is not the case with the Government decentralisation programme.

A number of functions and activities will be decentralised outside Dublin. The problems that are coming up are no different from what one would encounter in a large organisation. Any global company would encounter similar problems. What we are trying to do is to find ways through them. Obviously, one gets on with what one can do and tackles problems as they arise. We are well aware of the concerns expressed by the Deputy. Nothing has been said that we had not been made aware of.

There are no magical solutions. Some of the problems will improve as we go along. Since the close of the CAF, another 1,200 have applied for decentralised posts. We are monitoring the situation and are confident we will not entail costs that are not prudent.

Technical knowledge issues must be addressed. A risk analysis has been carried out on the loss of knowledge across Departments, which gives rise to concern. From my understanding of previous decentralisation programmes in Revenue and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, only 12% of staff travelled with their jobs. Moreover, they are seen by everybody as being extremely successful. On previous occasions the problems were managed. This is a major project, but many of the problems are similar. It does not come as a surprise that there are problems, as I would have expected them in a programme of this type. What is important is that we are alert to them and that we try to facilitate staff who do not want to move. In doing so, we will encounter difficulty. That is what it is all about.

I am concerned that we are moving rapidly on the issue of property, but I do not see how one can move an organisation to a new location if one has a real problem with the key skills for it. While we will have property throughout the country, will we be pondering on how we can move crucial staff voluntarily to places where they do not want to move? Should this arise, will Mr. Flood stand over his statement that the taxpayer will not see money badly spent? Surely it is a bad omen when Departments cannot give an indication of the costs they will incur for such activities as training, promotion, redeployment and shadowing costs. The Revenue Commissioners told the committee that they were allowed to carry approximately a 20% staff reserve to allow decentralisation proceed successfully. This was done over a long period and without the demand for focus skills.

I agree Mr. Flood is doing the best he can in the circumstances. If he was the financial controller in Guinness looking at decentralisation, for which no business case was made originally, in other words, moving without pre-planning, would he not be asserting the need to have certain critical benchmarks and milestones reached in each Department before he would commit shareholders' money to finance the acquisition of sites? It has not got home to me that such a critical path analysis is being carried out.

Mr. Flood

Some 900 staff have been assigned to be redeployed outside Dublin. They are in the Departments where they will be reassigned. It is a phased programme and in the next three years the number moving will match the commitments made on building. It will not arise that we will purchase or commit to a building where a Department has obvious problems until the difficulties have been overcome.

That may be clear to Mr. Flood, but it is not clear to me.

Mr. Flood

I do not know what else I can say to the Deputy to reassure him.

I would like to know there is a critical path analysis and that a Department has to reach a certain milestone before something else happens in order that a commitment to spend money will only be made when a number of milestones have been reached. Responses to my parliamentary questions from Ministers give me no sense that anything like that is happening. Perhaps they are bashful and do not want to admit to all the work they do.

Mr. Flood

I would have thought the protocols that are in position would act as a barrier to us purchasing buildings to which people did not in the end transfer. Some Departments, from a business as well as a numbers and people perspective, are clearly ready to go.

Deputy Rabbitte pointed out that there is a site in Navan for the probation and welfare service, whose officials have indicated that they do not want to move. We have committed money to that site but do not appear to have brought the service to the first milestone yet.

Mr. Michael Errity

Mr. Flynn, the previous chairman, said when he attended the committee that the board has approached decentralisation on the basis of three pillars right from its March 2004 report. Those pillars are people, property and business. The group meets on average once or twice a month and its members access reports and get to see the build up of the critical mass of staff. We see the implementation plans, which ask organisations to post for the benefit of their staff, Members of the Oireachtas and the public. We receive ongoing property reports. The critical analysis to which Deputy Bruton referred is built into that. In our 2004 reports, we identified the first group of organisations we thought should go and gave indicative property dates. We based our recommendations on an analysis of the number of applicants, implementation plans, risks and risk mitigation, interviews with some Secretaries General and ongoing reports on property. As the Chairman said, interviews with Secretaries General are now being repeated.

Deputy Bruton was correct to say that sites had been bought but we must start somewhere. There is a long lead-in for the OPW in acquiring a property, negotiating its price to protect the Exchequer and obtaining analysis from organisations to inform the building of the necessary structure. It can be seen how the process is being progressed. Deputy Bruton mentioned Navan, in respect of which we are satisfied that as things progress we will build up a critical mass of staff. We are in negotiations with representatives of the professional and technical staff. Approximately one third of the required 350 applicants among professional and technical staff have applied and we are drilling down again having obtained that information to determine how their skills match up following the analysis we carried out in respect of the general service staff. We are also in discussions with the unions to ascertain how the balance of staff can be obtained through discussions on promotions and other transfers. A clear, critical path analysis exists.

The Chairman referred earlier to the group's role, which is very powerful in the Department's view. The OPW deals with property and the Department of Finance with industrial relations because the group does not need to reinvent the wheel. The OPW is the specialist in the management of the State's property portfolio and from the outset the public service unions indicated that they wished to continue along the well-trodden path of dealing centrally with the Department of Finance on industrial relations. We have honoured that request. All of the agencies involved report regularly to the implementation group. On that basis and on the basis of the interviews with Secretaries General and implementation plans, the implementation group provides progress reports to the Minister for Finance. The chairman also reports to the Cabinet sub-committee on decentralisation, which is relevant to Deputy Bruton's point about Government responsibility. There is a clear linkage right back to Government on this process.

It is very important to deal with the one in nine issue. Among the members of the implementation group is the former chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Dermot Quigley. In evidence to this committee last year, it was made clear that the Revenue Commissioners managed to make a very successful transfer to Limerick having a very small number of applicants moving with their own jobs. Even if decentralisation did not exist, it is important to note that——

Quite substantial costs were signalled to us. Mr. Quigley had a float of staff which allowed him to manage training and the transition, which was known about and planned. In the current programme, not one Department will put its hand up and point to solid figures on promotions, shadow staff and training costs despite the fact that we are two thirds of the way through the planning process. Mr. Errity might be seeing these reports but they are certainly not filtering out to us.

The impression given to the committee on the move of Revenue to Limerick was that it was not a model for efficient decentralisation.

There were very significant costs.

It emerged that an additional 300 staff were required because of promotions and the failure of people to move. Such requirements are very extravagant for taxpayers. If the move to Limerick is to be held up as a model for how things will work, red lights must flash to indicate the process will be too costly for the taxpayer.

I want to call Deputy Burton.

I welcome DIG to talk about CAF, which words indicate that this is a specialised world with little to do with taxpayers. I support decentralisation and was a Minister of State when the last decentralisation programme was undertaken when Albert Reynolds was Taoiseach. Decentralisation to a number of locations in the north west, Limerick and Wexford, where a new agency, the EPA, was established in Johnstown Castle, took place. One would expect the decentralisation implementation group to commission historical research among the Revenue Commissioners, Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Ordnance Survey. Initially, 20% of staff were enthusiastic about decentralising to their home areas, while staff near to retirement were quite open to decentralising to attractive locations. Over a long period, a further 20% of staff were persuaded on foot of promotions to transfer to the decentralised locations. Critically, funding was provided to hire staff locally while the non-decentralised staff stayed in Dublin. The programme was carried out at a time of very high unemployment, particularly in the decentralised locations of Donegal and Killarney.

The current decentralisation project is taking place in the context of full employment and no positive evidence for it has been adduced by the implementation group. The lack of evidence is confirmed by the use of the decentralisation of the Revenue Commissioners to Limerick as the model of success. That transfer was successful only over a very lengthy seven-year period and it involved the necessity to retrain or hire up to 80% of the staff who ultimately were located in Limerick. When the current programme was announced uncosted, it was to take place over three years and involve 55 separate locations throughout the country. I do not blame the implementation group, which is trying to pick up the pieces and put Humpty Dumpty together again. The programme must be reviewed and reconsidered by Government to concentrate on those elements that can be delivered successfully and at a reasonable cost to the taxpayer.

Development Co-operation Ireland is a highly specialised agency within the Department of Foreign Affairs. I have read the risk assessment documentation from the agency. At a meeting between the Secretary General at the Department of Foreign Affairs and a former and well-regarded Member of the Dáil, Mr. Chris Flood, who chairs a development aid advisory committee for the Department on behalf of Government, Mr. Flood asked if assurances could be given that the project would be delivered on time and with little or no adverse affect on the aid programme. The reply was that the Department was satisfied it could relocate to Limerick in the first quarter of 2007. However, the result will be a loss of corporate memory arising from the high level of staff turnover — 80% plus — which bears up the Revenue Commissioners figures, all of which are consistent over a period, particularly at senior management level, where the figure stands at 100%, with no senior aid specialist or foreign affairs diplomat official, who between them represent approximately 10,000 years of experience in overseas development aid, having agreed to relocate.

I am sure Mr. Errity is aware that the overseas development aid budget of €670 million is the largest discretionary budget managed by any Department. That budget, which is allocated on a tri-annual basis among a variety of programmes, is highly discretionary and must be properly managed. Much of the Civil Service budget is taken up in the employment of people. The number of decisions that Ministers and Departments make about disbursing money is quite limited. The position differs in respect of overseas development aid, however, with some €700 million due to be disbursed prior to the move to Limerick by a Department that is to lose 80% of its staff.

Part of the information I received is blacked out under the terms of the freedom of information regulations. For example, the uncertainty regarding the development specialist grades is blacked out, a matter which I intend to appeal to the Information Commissioner. I support Deputy Bruton's point that the level of information relating to the real costs of this project being released into the public domain by the Government is disgraceful. Elements of the project would be perfectly deliverable if it were smaller in scale and carried out on a phased basis, while other elements, such as DFI, will damage a significant and important programme. The move can be achieved. People with no experience of development aid can be recruited and diplomats can remain in Dublin. There is no doubt that it can be done.

Mention was made of commercial companies undertaking transfers. However, when commercial companies undertake transfers, they do so to improve the company, not to destroy it, although that may be the outcome. In this instance, our foreign aid programme is to be put at huge risk. One might say that the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs has a vested interest in being reluctant to relocate, although he has publicly stated that he strongly supports decentralisation. I understand his position. The implementation group should surely be seeking risk assessments or independent evaluations or should be undertaking them itself, rather than watching services being destroyed.

With regard to FÁS, of the 400 people due to relocate to Birr in the already acquired premises, six are on file as being willing to move. It is my understanding, from information obtained from the Department, that these individuals are in the higher age profile of employees at FÁS. Perhaps the delegation might confirm if that is the position. I understand that the six people concerned are only a few years away from retirement. In terms of risk assessment, FÁS has stated that there is a risk of it losing significant numbers of people with specific and relevant skills and that this, in turn, will affect its ability to maintain a satisfactory level of service. FÁS is also anticipating an 80% turnover of specialist staff.

The Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, stated on Midland Radio that more than six people have agreed to relocate to Birr and that the implementation group had concluded a deal with the unions to have 51 staff promoted in order to encourage them to move. Can the delegation state if such a proposal has been agreed? If so, does it represent a significant change in Government policy? Everybody here is in favour of properly managed decentralisation, with some notion of cost.

I presume Mr. Errity is familiar with CMOD, the centre for management and organisation development, in the Department of Finance. The group's report identifies ICT as being critical in this area. CMOD is the organisation that oversees Government use of computers, computer programmes and ICT. We are aware it is a strong value for money orientated function within Government. We are also aware of the valiant efforts in respect of PPARS to ensure the taxpayer received value for money. We are aware of the hard work of the CMOD outfit, which is soon to be divided in three between Tullamore, Kildare and Dublin.

I am aware of Mr. Flood's experience at Guinnesses and in other areas. The files I have obtained indicate an appalling situation in respect of the loss of experienced ICT personnel. The information states that CMOD will have to fill 27 of the 33 posts relocated. Again, this relates to 80% of total staff. The staff concerned are people with third level qualifications in ICT or individuals who have been trained by the Department of Finance in ICT. Given that staff are only being asked to move to Kildare, I do not understand the problem. As pointed out, they will have access to a motorway by the time the relocation takes place. The documentation I received states that these staff, who are located in the Department of Finance, have listed family and other commitments as reasons for their refusal to move. The Department of Social and Family Affairs move to Drogheda is over-subscribed by a factor of approximately 200% because people living on the northside of Dublin have easy access to Drogheda. Why not relocate FÁS on a phased basis, rather than stating that what the group is embarking on has no cost considerations?

Another issue that has not been addressed is what is to happen to those who have decided, as they are entitled to do, to remain in Dublin? I refer, in particular, to the 300 or 400 employees of FÁS, which is heavily regionalised throughout the country. Staff at FÁS are well used to moving around.

There are two headquarters for the Legal Aid Board, one in Caherciveen and one in Dublin. It is interesting that the schedules indicate that all the staff in Caherciveen have opted to move to Killarney. We would like to know how this will be organised. Ireland is a full employment economy and the decentralisation programme of ten years ago, to places such as Limerick, Donegal and the north west, occurred when those areas had unemployment rates of up to 25%. What are the cost parameters of what is proposed? Have risk assessments been carried out in respect of each organisation? I have just highlighted the risks involved for three of them. The risk assessments are terrifying in respect of the destruction of important functions by Government. FÁS is responsible for labour market policy and analysis. This is an important function but perhaps the Government wishes to abolish FÁS. Our overseas development programme has an important function and computers and ICT are critical to the future management of the Civil Service, yet each of these crucial areas is a mess.

Mr. Flood

I will respond to some of those points and Mr. Michael Errity will deal with industrial relations matters. My understanding is that there is no deal with FÁS but Mr. Errity can address that point.

Midland Radio should take note in order that the Minister of State can reverse——

The Deputy should allow Mr. Flood to finish. The Minister of State is well able to defend himself.

The Chairman always defends his constituency colleague, Deputy Parlon, and he must do so. Employees of the Minister of State contacted constituents about a Midland Radio poll on re-evaluating the project. Responses to the poll ran at 1:1 until the Minister of State's employees sent out 297 texts and e-mails to get people to rig the poll.

The Chairman should not be smiling because this is coming into the public domain.

The Labour Party never did anything of that nature.

Mr. Flood should continue as best he can and we will try to refrain from discussing constituency politics.

Mr. Flood

I will not become involved in politics but I will state that people use information to their advantage. For example, managing directors give different messages to shareholders, employees and the boss. I believe there is no deal on FÁS and the point on transfers is not accurate either. Mr. Errity can address these points.

Regarding Deputy Burton's question on where employees will be found in a full employment economy, figures from a recent Civil Service competition show 11,000 applicants across a range of towns and cities. The Civil Service is still attractive and people are still available. I was surprised to note that approximately 11,000 people applied for an open competition.

We take our job — successfully implementing this programme — very seriously. The Deputy asked whether I would start at the same point if I were in charge. The plan is a Government policy and our role is to implement it, while minimising risks. We are dependent on the skills of the OPW to monitor the programme and ensure that value for money is achieved. We are also dependent on Secretaries General and Ministers to deliver. We examined the reports and business plans in detail.

Is Mr. Flood stating that there are costed business plans?

Mr. Flood

They are not costed. Business plans outlining business risk analysis exist and Deputy Burton has quoted from these. People have suggested that the risk analysis is terrifying but the Secretaries General gave us what we wanted, namely, the worst possible scenario. This is the only way we could address concerns. The risk analysis was included in the document but a second section describes how the risks will be addressed and managed.

My assessment of the meeting was that the Secretary General referred, in a forceful manner, to the problems that could arise, the risks involved, the possible loss of experience, etc. This applies to all Departments because every Secretary General feels that his or her Department is losing experienced people. The Secretary General was confident that he could overcome it and was in the process of addressing the problems. The solution will not be perfect because, ideally, he would like to retain his current staff and have them all move together. At no stage did a Secretary General express concerns about ability to deliver the plan. The idea that the plan would destroy the service provided was not expressed in any presentations made to us.

I was impressed by the confidence and professionalism of all Secretaries General. Some had difficulties with particular proposals but they were prepared to work towards solutions. At the conclusion of these meetings, we did not feel that they could not deliver the plan.

When did the meetings take place?

Mr. Flood

Approximately four weeks ago.

The meeting with Mr. Chris Flood took place in late October. Most members have great respect for Mr. Chris Flood and his statement is clear.

Mr. Flood

I am not saying that Mr. Chris Flood is inaccurate in what he stated.

It was a question and answer session and it exists on the record.

Mr. Flood

On 19 October we had a meeting with that Department. The Department was not suggesting it would be easy but I was reassured that all Secretaries General were quite confident that they could overcome the difficulties. Some had more serious problems than others. It was stated on several occasions that the Civil Service had a track record of decentralisation and that this plan could be managed. It is not new for people to move, individually, throughout the Civil Service.

We know that and, as I stated, the previous example——

Mr. Flood

I quoted that in the context of one for nine. I did not quote it as an example we would use. I imagine that the Revenue Commissioners experienced a considerable loss of technical people. I understand that only 12% of people relocated but it managed the project. I did not suggest that these were perfect examples because I do not have sufficient knowledge of them. All discussion has focussed on people not travelling and these must be addressed in a particular way.

Regarding the plan, a number of posts, rather than named individuals, were to be decentralised. Otherwise, there would be an insistence that the person employed in a particular post should be automatically transferred. I referred to the example of the Revenue Commissioners, as a body of skilled people with much experience, that survived even though only 12% moved to the new location.

They survived. That is the key word.

Mr. Flood

Well, that is——

It took them a long period to go from surviving to moving into a better phase.

Mr. Flood

There is no doubt——

Ultimately, they trained and attracted new people at great cost.

Elements of the programme are easy to implement, such as moving the Department of Social and Family Affairs to Drogheda. I would have thought moving ICT to Kildare was also easy to implement. I do not understand the difficulties and I would like the group to comment on ICT specifically.

Regarding the overseas aid office, which has the highest discretionary spending budget within Government, moving to Limerick, the indications are that a loss of 80% of staff will occur generally with a loss of 100% of the most experienced staff. I read in the newspapers that five people offered to transfer from other Departments. I have no doubt that in time they would be a valuable addition to the Department of Foreign Affairs. However, does the group accept the point that development aid is a highly specialised, high-spending discretionary area? The committee is entitled to ask about value for taxpayers' money and about the catastrophic loss of management experience and skill in an extremely specialised area.

What will happen to people left in Dublin who will be surplus to requirements? Will we open extra embassies to give them jobs? Will they sit in offices in Dublin staring at the four walls? What is the situation regarding the 400 people in FÁS who will not move? Taxpayers will pay on the double for this.

Mr. Errity

I will clarify the issue regarding FÁS. It is important to reiterate what my predecessor stated when he appeared before the committee. The set of figures from the central applications facility can be interpreted in a number of ways. Due to the concern about FÁS and the publicity it attracted, we specifically asked for up-to-date information. We understand that 52 people have signed up to decentralise to Birr. Of those, 22 are new entrants and 29 are secured promotions. It is also fair to state that the unions are concerned about this and I will go no further than to state it is the subject of ongoing discussions between——

Will Mr. Errity break down those figures. He stated that 52 people have signed up. How many are relocating from FÁS headquarters in Dublin? How many are relocating or likely to relocate on promotion?

Mr. Errity

I understand that 22 of the 52 are new entrants. I presume they are recruits——

Are they from all around Ireland? Are they people from the Civil Service who opted to transfer or were they recruited externally?

Mr. Errity

It is not possible that they are from the Civil Service. I must stress that there is no protocol or agreement in place for the movement of people from the Civil Service to State bodies. I can only presume that they are new direct recruits into FÁS and that is the only avenue available to FÁS to secure staff.

New people who apply for jobs in FÁS must, as a condition of the application, agree to be decentralised. It is in the advertisement and in the terms and conditions that apply. Does Mr. Errity agree?

Mr. Errity

That is correct.

There are 22 new entrants.

Mr. Errity

Yes, along with 29 people who were promoted, presumably within FÁS——

Again, decentralisation is a condition of applying for promotion within FÁS. The organisation is seriously concerned that people who wish to remain in Dublin can no longer apply for promotional jobs within FÁS because the conditions include that a person must agree to decentralise. Does Mr. Errity agree?

Mr. Errity

In the absence of any other agreement between the management and the unions on decentralisation globally, that is the position.

While I wish to give Deputy Catherine Murphy an opportunity to speak, I wish to make one observation. Decentralisation of the Revenue Commissioners and shadow staff have been mentioned on a number of occasions. The cost of decentralising the Revenue Commissioners is 0.8% of the revenue they collect. This is one of the best cost bases by any international standard and that has not been stated at this committee previously. Costs may be incurred in a particular period but the long-term outcome is that they are extremely efficient. I do not hear any complaints about the efficiency of the Revenue Commissioners. People might complain they are too efficient.

I have some major criticisms of the decentralisation project. It is concerned with decentralisation of staff rather than decentralisation of decision-making. If it were to be done, it should be carried out in the context of the national spatial strategy. I asked seven Departments the same question on risk analysis and I got varying responses. The greater the identification of risk, the greater the prospect of managing and overcoming that risk. It makes me more suspicious if I do not receive information. I am extremely critical of the Departments for directing me towards their websites when I ask parliamentary questions on risk analysis. It is no way to deal with the issue and does nothing to alleviate concerns.

Regarding ICT, I read a newspaper article at the weekend on the employment of additional consultants because of particular difficulties in filling the requirements of the various Departments. The article criticised as bad practice hiring consultants when employees were already in place. One of the difficulties with ICT is that people expect it to do too much. It is part of the reason we ran into difficulties. Unless one has a full understanding of what an organisation does and its culture, it is extremely difficult to fit ICT to that organisation. Hiring consultants to do that when they do not understand the organisation is a serious risk in its own right. We should pay particular attention to that, given that we have seen monumental mistakes such as PPARS. Mistake is probably too tame a word for PPARS, where there was no evidence of any management.

The people at the top end of the pyramid calling the shots are the least likely to move with the organisation. It is difficult to see how ICT projects can be managed with varying management roles. People will be working themselves into an organisation while managing an ICT project at the same time. The area of ICT could jump up and bite us in respect of decentralisation.

The downtime that many Departments must deal with is also a concern. Often it is not possible to complete repair work from remote locations. Additional ICT people may be required as a consequence. Staff will be located in various locations throughout the country instead of being able to function as they do at present.

The small number of 2,000 people moving with their jobs is significantly different from 10,000 people moving. I do not regard the number seeking decentralisation as meaning that the project is popular, although it matches the number of people required. Multiples of what is required are necessary to fulfil the types of job on offer. If we are to adhere to the terms of the public service embargo, we will see significant property costs in front line services, rather than administration. The administrative structure will be heavier with posts not filled in other areas. I do not see how this mismatch will be overcome.

Will Mr. Flood outline how overlaps will be dealt with because there will be an overlap in occupying and vacating offices? We are presuming property in Dublin will maintain its value. In fact, if one looks at the number of vacant offices around the city, it indicates that it is currently not easy to let or sell property. This programme will bring an additional portfolio of office buildings to the market. I am not convinced, therefore, that we will not see a return of empty offices, of which we were so critical in the past.

The documentation states a further 24 Civil Service locations will be announced in the first phase. Does Mr. Flood have an idea of the numbers who will be involved at these locations? What jumps out at me from the statement is the indication of the numbers who will move in a given year but it is stated further on that there can be no guarantees. A risk analysis is supposed to produce guarantees. It is very difficult, therefore, to accept the terminology used because in the first two years of the programme at least we should have guaranteed numbers if it is as advanced as we have been led to believe it is. It represents a very big gamble when I see the words "no guarantees" used at this stage. That gives me particular cause for concern.

Mr. Flood

I do not think the Deputy can read it that it will not happen. In fairness, in the few months I have been in the job experience makes me wary of what one can state because one will be crucified if one does not deliver. I do not see the statement as meaning there is a high risk that we will not achieve the numbers mentioned. With the best will in the world, we could assume a building would be purchased and it would not happen. While I do not see that happening, the statement was meant to signal that certain things could happen along the way. The numbers might go up or go down slightly. However, I do not believe they will. I believe we will deliver on the figures mentioned. If it causes concern, it is more a reflection on my over-anxiety to be honest and state what could go wrong, but I confidently believe we can deliver on the figures.

The Deputy has raised the issue of the price of property going down. It is interesting that the OPW secured €171 million for two acres of land in Ballsbridge. It would argue that without decentralisation, it would not have been selling the property as some other part of the organisation would have wanted it. There will be spin-offs, but it is difficult to identify them at this stage. My predecessor made it clear last year that, overall, we believed the cost of the building programme would be covered by the sale of property in Dublin, as well as the discontinuation of leasing and renting property.

The Deputy made an initial point that it was not a decentralisation of decision-making. Some eight Departments, with the Minister and Secretary General, will move out of the city. As I see it, decision-making will be relocated with the Minister. Government decisions will still be taken at Government level, but because the Minister, Secretary General and the entire staff of some Departments are moving, one assumes all decisions will be made on location, as they would have been heretofore in Dublin.

I meant decentralisation of decision-making in its broadest context, where people believe they can make decisions at their own location. One is now talking about decisions being made in an office in a different place without it having an impact necessarily on the local area, which is my understanding of genuine decision-making.

I am keen to ensure Mr. Flood addresses the issue of ICT because it is the most serious question I raised.

Mr. Flood

It is a big issue. I defer to Mr. Errity.

Mr. Errity

The decentralisation programme was announced in the 2003 Budget Statement of the then Minister for Finance. I do not have it in front of me, but I remember he referred to the critical nature of ICT in the context of service delivery. I suppose the two Departments to which one would look are the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Revenue Commissions. The implementation group engaged on the issue almost immediately and in several reports, including the most recent, we have identified its importance. Deputy Burton referred to CMOD, the Centre for Management Organisation and Development, and its overarching responsibility for ICT across the Civil Service. I have lost count of the number of times the head of that organisation has come to talk to us. Following the announcement, the organisation engaged with the main players in ICT across the Civil Service to come up with protocols, an analysis of risk and separate ICT implementation plans. I know the Deputy referred to being sent to websites, but the reason for that is that we encourage organisations, as the chairman said, warts and all, to make their implementation plans available to everybody, including staff.

Over a number of months CMOD has come up with a protocol which we are now discussing with the trade unions and which we believe can start us on the road — it will not be without difficulty — of trying to build up the necessary cadre of ICT staff. We are starting to analyse the applications made to the central applications facility. Many ICT staff are willing to go and we are discussing with the trade unions the manner in which we can certify that staff have the necessary skills to move between organisations. We are discussing with the trade unions how we can hold competitions to train staff in the Civil Service. The many young people entering it are very anxious to get involved in the area of ICT as they are very skilled in it. We are also discussing the question of running confined competitions and, as a residual point, bringing people in on short-term contracts to fill gaps. There is a robust process in place. It is one of the issues the implementation group has highlighted in almost every report. In our last report it was specified that we would be devoting a great deal of attention in the coming months to the issue.

On the information Mr. Errity has just given, on 7 November the number of posts allocated to Tullamore was 131 in CMOD, but the overall number of Department of Finance staff opting to move to Tullamore was 18. However, staff in other Departments were interested. Some 33 posts have been allocated to Kildare, but only nine Department of Finance staff have opted to move. How can one call that a great result?

Mr. Errity

Deputy Burton made a point about CMOD and three locations. CMOD does not simply provide an ICT facility for the Civil Service, it provides a centralised training facility to leverage efficiencies. The trainers are part of the CMOD element going to Tullamore while the main ICT unit will decentralise to Kildare. A significant proportion of the Department will remain in Dublin as some of the staff must remain here to service the ICT needs of the Department.

It is six out of 33.

Mr. Errity

My understanding is, according to the report to end of November the Deputy received, that 67 of 133 staff are assigned to go to Tullamore. Nine out of 33 are to go to Kildare. We will work through the protocols of the central applications facility to bring in more people. As Kildare is not listed among the early movers, there is plenty of time to build up the necessary critical mass.

Mr. Errity spoke about introducing consultants to fill the gap which confirms reports in the Sunday newspapers. Is this a way to overcome the embargo? How long will this state of affairs continue and what will be the cost of this approach? It is not decentralisation in the sense we understand it.

Mr. Errity

The Deputy has raised three issues, not all of which are strictly within the remit of the discussion we are having here this morning. When I referred to consultants, I had in mind temporary employees on contract. There are also facilities to bring in employees on contract rather than consultants to perform once-off tasks in the Civil Service which are being used in all ICT units across the public service. The contracts may be for six or 12 months.

Was that the basis of PPARS?

Mr. Errity

It is my understanding of PPARS that consultant companies were engaged to provide staff and temporary employees were not used. The Minister has introduced certain value-for-money initiatives to address the issues arising from PPARS, which is not the subject of our discussion this morning. While it is also not strictly part of our discussion, members will know the Minister referred in his Budget Statement to the cap on public service numbers and stressed that essential services would be maintained. Caps will be maintained in the less sensitive front-line areas.

I warmly welcome Mr. Finbarr Flood, chairman of the decentralisation implementation board, and officials from the Department of Finance and thank them for the very positive report they have given us. It is not obvious from what has been said in the past hour that the delegates have made a positive report on the progress which has been made. Instead of considering the bottle to be three quarters full, the concentration has been on the quarter which is empty. We have focused on non-problems like the building of headquarters for Bus Éireann in Mitchelstown when the report before us relates to those things which have been reasonably successful and progressed. While lip service is paid by parties opposite to decentralisation, with which I suspect they agree, the message they convey is one of unremitting negativity. It is perhaps no accident that the spokesmen we have heard all come from what one might call the greater Dublin area, including Kildare. The national media which produce editorials on the subject are all based in Dublin too. A good news story which has not been mentioned in any of the documentation before us is the successful completion of the decentralisation to Carlow of Teagasc, which is a specialised agency.

As a former member of the Department of Foreign Affairs, I am a little puzzled by officials who are happy to be sent regularly to Lagos, Lisbon and Lusaka but feel Limerick is somehow a hardship post which is beyond comparison. Instead of moaning, it is the duty of public representatives to encourage civil servants to spend some of their careers in and to get to know other parts of the country they are administering. There has been a great deal of talk about costs with no reference whatever to the costs of centralising everything in Dublin. Has anyone worked out, for example, what percentage of the investment in Transport 21 is being made in the greater Dublin area? It is very high. Many of us speak about commitment to equality, which is why we should have some equality about the regions. Comments on full employment mask the fact that over the Celtic tiger era and since parts of the country have developed at different paces. Some provincial towns have not developed at anything like the rapidity of Dublin or Cork. One should not, therefore, make global generalisations in that regard.

If the delegation opposite will excuse me, I wish to give what I hope is friendly political advice to my colleagues. The negativity of some of the principal spokesmen on decentralisation is causing real difficulties for their party members down the country. Last week, there was a fierce attack on the new Labour Party candidate, Ms Phil Prendergast, in The Nationalist and Munster Advertiser in Clonmel. Deputy Burton was quoted to illustrate the negativity to decentralisation. It did not come from me, but from Deputy Healy. To take the example of Tipperary town——

Tipperary town has not developed under the Government. It is one of the backwaters the Government left out along with Clonmel.

Let the Senator speak, without interruption.

Clonmel is a thriving and prosperous town. Since decentralisation was proposed, a very significant level of investment has been announced in Tipperary town. Apartments are going up, houses are being built and Dunnes and Tesco stores have been announced. I am glad to say the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, announced only last week the provision of an extra €1.56 million for the Excel Heritage Centre which is a very important element of the development of the town. If one wants an ex post facto demonstration of the effect of decentralisation even before many of the jobs have arrived——

What is ex post facto? Will the Senator explain the jargon to us?

Let the Senator speak.

The effect of the decision on the economy of the town even before the offices have moved there has been significant.

I am glad to see Tipperary has moved up the list in that a site acquisition has been completed. The Private Security Authority, which was not part of the original announcement but whose 20 jobs were announced subsequently, is set to take over an existing building, the former Garda barracks which is being refurbished. Can the group provide me with detail on the timescale of the refurbishment? When will the refurbished building be occupied? Does the figure of 186 jobs include the extra 22 jobs referred to earlier? Will the new authority be located on a separate site? Perhaps the delegation will clarify, in terms of its report, the position of the Private Security Authority vis-à-vis the main offices of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and how the numbers will add up?

Mr. Flood

The figure relating to the Private Security Authority are separate. There are currently 13 people in place in Tipperary.

Is Mr. Flood saying that he is not treating this as part of the programme?

Mr. Flood

No, I am merely stating that the 13 people were not included in the original figure.

I accept that. What number of employees is it envisaged will be employed by that body?

Mr. Flood

It is envisaged that there will be 13 people in the Private Security Authority.

Mr. Errity

To date, 34 members of the Garda vetting unit have been assigned to Thurles as an advance party because of the Department's urgent need to develop its operations in that area. I can obtain a detailed note on the up-to-date position from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and forward it to Senator Mansergh.

I thank Mr. Errity.

What a pity Senator Mansergh is not a member of the Lower House. No doubt, following his robust intervention, he will shortly be called upon to fill a vacancy there.

I am working on that project.

Is the Senator not working on decentralisation?

The electorate will decide that.

I wonder if that relates to the fact that Deputy Davern has announced his intention to run for election again.

I think the Senator's problem is that Deputy Davern is running again.

We will not embroil Mr. Flood in such internal House matters. I welcome him to the committee. He has taken on a difficult job which must be completed in a short period. It must be difficult for him to attend meetings of this nature and defend what is being done. He is doing a good job.

Mr. Flood

I spent 15 years defending in goal for Shelbourne.

Anyone who can defend for Shelbourne can defend anything.

Mr. Flood

I have been behind some bad defences, although I do not suggest that is the case now. I am well protected here.

I am sure Shamrock Rovers would love the benefit of Mr. Flood's expertise.

I have a couple of questions for Mr. Flood. The document contains three references to the 10,600 applications received from public and civil servants to decentralise. Can Mr. Flood provide us with a breakdown of those wishing to move from Dublin, as distinct from others, to use the phrase used earlier, who are churning to move from places such as Portlaoise to Mullingar, Tullamore or Athlone?

The Department of Education and Science will soon relocate to Mullingar. One of the criticisms I have of the documentation presented to us today is that it does not contain up-to-date information in respect of the number of people willing to move from, for example, the Department of Education and Science to Mullingar. They are the crucial figures. If a high percentage of senior staff in that Department, who know their business and who are doing a good job, are not interested in transferring, a difficulty will arise in terms of retaining people with the required skills to do the job. I accept that people from other Departments may wish to transfer to the new location. However, the pattern so far has been that Departments have been unable to recruit at senior level, resulting in promotions and so on. This will lead to decentralisation taking place over a longer period. What will be done during decentralisation of the Department of Education and Science to Mullingar to retain that Department's skill base in order to ensure that it will be managed properly? Mr. Flood stated that some 4,000 people have agreed to relocate outside Dublin. What will be done with the 6,000 civil servants who refuse to transfer? It was stated two years ago in the Minister for Finance's Budget Statement that some 10,000 civil servants would be transferred out of Dublin. How will those who refuse to move be gainfully employed? I accept that it will be possible to obtain transfers in some instances particularly at the lower levels.

Mr. Flood stated earlier that a property has been purchased from a private developer in Dungarvan for Ordnance Survey Ireland. He also stated that contracts for sale for a further ten properties have been received and are in the process of being approved by the Chief State Solicitor. At present, the OPW is on the point of signing for the purchase of a property in Dungarvan from a private landlord. Ordnance Survey Ireland provides a specialised service. Neither Mr. Flood nor I would be able take up a senior position in that office. Of the 110 employees in that office only 15 have indicated a desire to relocate to Dungarvan. Is it wise to proceed with purchasing the property in Dungarvan when the skill base is unlikely to meet the agency's needs?

Earlier, Mr. Flood stated:

Following this round of discussions, I have come to you today confident that the senior Civil Service are leading the implementation of this programme in a professional and carefully planned manner and that they are availing of opportunities to improve their process and their delivery of service in conjunction with decentralisation.

However, what he did not say was that senior civil servants do not wish to move from Dublin. Is that not true? Had we received up-to-date information, we would have been able to determine if there had been a change in the number of senior people opting to relocate.

My final point relates to OPW, which is professionally managed. Mr. Errity referred on a couple of occasions to the professional manner in which the OPW is managing its business, something which can be open to question in places. We are all watchful of what is happening in our home towns. Following an announcement in 2000 that the NEPS programme would relocate to Mullingar OPW set about finding a suitable property for it. Hidden in the small print of that announcement was that the decision had been reversed, with only a small portion of the service being relocated to Mullingar. The property purchased for the service is now three or four times the size required. Some tens of thousands of euro are being spent on leasing a property that is not being properly utilised. Mr. Flood quoted from the budget speech two years ago which stated that any new property purchased must be purchased in place of a property to be leased or sold in Dublin. He then went on to speak about the sites in Ballsbridge. It is a little disingenuous to suggest that even though these sites were not linked to decentralisation, they have resulted in a great deal of money for the Exchequer. It does not follow that the sale of these sites was linked to decentralisation. As Deputy Bruton reminds me, the group has not identified any.

The Department of Education and Science headquarters on Marlborough Street consists of two listed buildings and an active school. A lease from a British landlord, which dates back a long way, is held on part of the property. How in the name of God can the property be sold to realise a sum sufficient to proceed with the purchase in Mullingar? Despite what Senator Mansergh said, my party is very much in favour of decentralisation. What concerns us, however, is the manner in which it is being carried out and the possible cost to the taxpayer — the poor guy who will pick up the tab. The attitude seems to be similar to that of Deputy Noel Dempsey to PPARS when he said that only a small amount of money was involved. The chairman of the decentralisation implementation group similarly seemed to suggest that the Revenue Commissioners had done a great job and that the cost had been small. Every bit extra is additional tax that taxpayers are obliged to pay and it is our job, as Members of the Oireachtas, to ensure they get the best value for money.

Mr. Flood

Approximately, 5,600 people will transfer from Dublin. The programme is voluntary in nature and those who do not move will be redeployed to other Departments in the city, although there is a problem with professional, IT and technical staff. People are already moving from Departments that are decentralising. A central applications facility was recently established to allow such staff identify where they would like to work in Dublin. While not everyone can be accommodated, it is a start in trying to address the problem. In the coming years, the pressure will ease and people will redeploy to jobs that will be found for them within the Civil Service.

What does Mr. Flood mean exactly?

Mr. Flood

It is not possible to set out a timeframe. The objective is to achieve the goal of decentralising 10,300 jobs. With the 3% each year, promotions and people leaving, it should be possible to accommodate staff over time. There will still be a problem with the professionals but that matter is being dealt with in ongoing discussions. One can look at the programme and say that many things are not happening but none of the problems would surprise a person who was initiating the exercise. Nothing in the programme surprises me. The issues that have arisen are routine in normal programmes and they must be managed. Visionary leadership is required to overcome some of them. While it would be nice to be able to guarantee that all the bricks will be put in position, all we can do is indicate that it is our objective to accomplish that goal and to control all of the costs as outlined in the programme. We will only be able to prove that we did so at the conclusion of the exercise.

We hope we can overcome the problems we face. My experience with Guinnesses and in the Labour Court, where I have listened to multinationals that have reorganised perhaps 40,000 people across continents, is that commercial organisations encounter many of the problems we face with decentralisation. Our programme is smaller and more difficult to process but the size gives us other opportunities. Accommodations must be made in a voluntary scheme. If one has a voluntary scheme, one faces many problems. According to the Financial Times recently, one country decentralised its civil service over a weekend by sending everyone into the jungle in lorries.

Is Mr. Flood suggesting that we do so?

The Khmer Rouge did that in Cambodia.

Mr. Flood

I am not suggesting that and I hope it does not——

Closer to home, Gordon Brown has been doing something similar. British decentralisation has been a compulsory programme.

Mr. Flood

The one thing I do not want is a headline saying "Chairman of DIG says everybody should be put in a lorry and transferred around the country". My point is that in a voluntary scheme, one must allow for flexibility and timing. Some of the issues we face will be resolved through the extension of the time period, overlapping and putting people in jobs earlier to give them the opportunity to pick up the knowledge of those who are leaving. While not every problem we face has an answer, I have great confidence that the programme will work. The people charged with making sure it happens have indicated to us that they can deliver in spite of the current difficulties.

I welcome Mr. Flood and his associates and thank them for a comprehensive update on decentralisation. Will the revenues generated from the sale of properties, particularly those in Dublin, cover the capital costs of providing new buildings in decentralised locations? In the report to the Minister for Finance in June, there was a slight criticism of the manner in which State agencies are progressing their decentralisation proposals. There seemed to be similar comments in this morning's presentation. How can more progress be made by the agencies?

Unfortunately, Deputy Paul McGrath has departed. He was concerned about the impact an excessive number of staff would have on the Exchequer. As a rural Deputy, I welcome all the staff who will come to Carlow and acknowledge that they will contribute handsomely to the Exchequer and local economy. It is a point which should also be borne in mind.

Is decentralisation covered by the expenditure review initiative in the public service? If, as the Government has reaffirmed on a number of occasions, there is a cap on public service numbers, what will happen in towns such as Clonmel, which need more primary school teachers, frontline nurses and doctors, if significant numbers of civil servants refuse to decentralise and must be duplicated in the decentralised locations? Unlike Senator Mansergh, I do not have the luxury——

There is no connection between the health service and decentralisation.

I am entitled to ask this question. There is an expenditure review initiative across the public sector. Senator Mansergh has an uncanny resemblance to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell.

I thank the Deputy for the promotion.

I apologise. If one crosses the Senator or the Deputy, there is a riposte.

I sat entirely silent during the Deputy's very long indictment of decentralisation.

I know Tipperary pretty well.

Not as well as I do. The Deputy turned up on my doorstep to canvass me one evening and did not seem to know quite where she was.

I think I did know. I was surprised that the Senator was in Tipperary and not in Dublin or abroad as is usually the case.

That was below the belt.

I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the Senator had been in Tipperary. I was also delighted——

I was an adviser at the time the Deputy called to canvass me. I was in a different role then from that which I now occupy.

I was delighted with the welcome——

That sort of remark is not worthy of Deputy Burton.

What are the implications in respect of Civil Service numbers? I refer, in particular, to the employment of additional primary teachers, nurses and doctors, whom we need so badly.

Such issues are related to expenditure reviews.

The expenditure review initiative implies coherence in public service expenditure.

The Deputy must conclude. I call on Mr. Flood to reply.

Mr. Flood

I will deal with the second part of the question. I cannot comment on the effect of other operations on decentralisation. That does not come within our brief. I cannot answer the Deputy's question.

Does anybody in the Department of Finance have an oversight of coherence in respect of Civil Service numbers, frontline staff, doctors, teachers and the ERI?

The Deputy will have an opportunity to raise that issue at another forum. It is not a matter that comes within Mr. Flood's remit. The committee is discussing the issue of decentralisation.

It is appropriate to the Department of Finance official.

Mr. Flood

In fairness, the official from the Department of Finance is here in the context of his being a member of the DIG. The Deputy's question should be directed to the Department of Finance.

I agree.

Mr. Flood

Mr. Errity will respond to the question on expenditure.

Mr. Errity

Expenditure reviews do not come within my area of responsibility. My understanding is that any area of Government expenditure can be the subject of an expenditure review. Certain percentages or elements of each Department's expenditure are subjected, on a rolling basis, to examination. The central expenditure review group is comprised of representatives from within and outside the Civil Service. As I understand it, that group makes recommendations to Government, which then makes the final decision on the issues that are to be reviewed. I am not aware that decentralisation is listed. The group or appropriate unit in the Department of Finance has not been informed in that regard.

As there is a vote in the Dáil, we will conclude our discussions. I thank Mr. Flood and his delegation for their helpful, informative and thorough presentation. We have covered many issues and that is helpful to the process. I do not doubt that we will meet the delegation again to hear about the further progress that has been made.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.55 a.m. until Wednesday, 11 January 2006.

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