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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 2009

Report of Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes: Discussion.

The purpose of the meeting is to carry out a review of the report of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes. I welcome Mr. Colm McCarthy, chairman of the group, and the other members, Mr. Donal McNally, Mr. Pat McLoughlin, Mr. Maurice O'Connell and Ms Mary Walsh. I understand Mr. William Slattery is unable to attend because he has a prior engagement abroad.

Before commencing I advise everyone that we will receive a presentation, which will be followed by a question and answer session. I draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Before I invite Mr. McCarthy to begin, I advise members that this meeting must conclude by 4 p.m.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

What I would like to do is update for the committee what is in volume one of the report. As well as a summary of the detailed recommendations, it contained an initial explanation of why we are in this situation where the Government has committed itself to a pretty severe tightening in fiscal policy stretching out over the next several years. It is important to understand the macroeconomic context, so to speak. I also wish to take the opportunity to update what we have said in volume one of the report, which was released in the middle of July as lots of things have happened since.

By historical standards we are in what is a sudden fiscal crisis. We had a surplus in our annual budget just a couple of years ago. This year it looks as if the deficit will be 12% of GDP. Only a few months ago we thought it might be a little under 11% but tax revenue has been so weak that the deficit has had to be revised upwards. This is a large and sudden deterioration in the fiscal position. In addition, it coincides with the banking crisis, an international credit crunch and a rising exchange rate. We do more trade with non-euro currencies than any other member of the eurozone. We do a lot of trade in sterling and dollars. The rising euro exchange rate, especially against those two currencies, has exacerbated the competitiveness weakness that existed. For all of those reasons we are in the deepest and most serious economic downturn since the Second World War. However, in terms of just the fiscal position it is important to recall that we have been here before.

Many of those present were Members of the Dáil and Seanad in the 1980s when we were in a serious fiscal situation. That started in the mid-1970s and it built up. It was acknowledged by all of the participants in the political system by 1980, but as is evident from the chart in the PowerPoint display, we did not do much about it until the late 1980s. We borrowed 10% and 12% of GDP year in and year out for a decade. That was a decade most people would not like to repeat.

The first table, which is shown on the third slide, shows some of the fiscal ratios from the 1980s. It is interesting to compare the current situation with that in the 1980s because there are lessons to be drawn from that. The fourth row in the table on the right hand side shows the average annual rate of growth in total Government spending over the 1982 to 1987 period, which was a period in which there was just one Government. There had been three general elections in a row in 1981 and 1982 but then a Fine Gael-Labour Party coalition Government got in and lasted until 1987. Through that period total Government spending averaged an increase of 6.4% but the CPI, which is the bottom row in that table, averaged 6.3%. Over those five years, Government spending was not growing significantly in real terms. Exchequer capital spending fell. Current spending rose a bit in real terms. The Central Fund, which is mostly interest payments, rose much more quickly as it inevitably does when one is borrowing a lot.

The eventual correction of that public finance crisis got going in 1987 but there were lots of factors that were different. For example, there was no banking collapse the last time. The Government might have been in trouble financially at the end of the 1980s but the banking system was not. We also had our own exchange rate at that time which is important. There had been a devaluation in the middle of 1986, which helped to restore competitiveness and that had beneficial effects for several years thereafter. The other point is that the international economy was doing okay at that time. There was a tax amnesty in 1988 whose yield exceeded expectations. It yielded 2% of GNP more than the Government at the time had pencilled in. That was a pure bonus, if one likes. The other difference from the current situation is that as we have noted, spending growth had been slow prior to 1987.

The next table is interesting because it shows what happens when one eventually does get a fiscal correction and when one gets on top of a public finance crisis. The figures here might surprise some people because there is a certain amount of mythology about what happened in 1987 when Ray MacSharry was Minister for Finance and there were all those stories about "Mac the Knife" and all that sort of stuff. In reality, Government current spending was never cut in nominal terms. If one looks at the top row in that table, it grew 4.3% in 1987, 1% in 1988, nearly 1% in 1989 and then quite briskly at 8.5% in 1990. It was not the case that current spending was cut in nominal terms in those years. Exchequer capital spending was cut. In retrospect, perhaps it was cut a bit too much. From the inflation figure, which is CPI, one can see that total Government spending, which in real terms was constant in 1987, did fall in 1988 and again in 1989 but it recovered significantly in 1990. The really significant change in those years was the big improvement in revenue. Government revenue increased a great deal in 1987 and 1988. It did not increase considerably in 1989 but increased very dramatically in 1990. The result was that the Exchequer deficit fell to very manageable figures. It is a myth that the cuts were the principle reason. While they were necessary, the recovery in revenue had much to do with it.

The public finances crisis we face now is more difficult to address in many ways. The banking system has collapsed, as we know, and the banks are functioning because the credit of the Exchequer has been made available to them. We must now restore competitiveness without devaluation. The international economy is very weak and the sovereign credit markets are very difficult. In the 1980s there were not many countries borrowing. Ireland was doing so but sovereign credit was readily available. That is not the case now, as we all know.

On the positive side, the difference between now and the 1980s is that there is now scope for spending cuts. Spending growth through the mid-1980s was very modest but it was very rapid in recent years, as shown in the slide depicting the growth in total Exchequer spending. The figures are quite striking. There has been substantial real growth in spending year in, year out. The figures are for the period 2000 to date. In 2008, total spending rose by 9.8% and the CPI rose by 4%. Therefore, there was a sizeable real increase in spending, even though the crisis was manifest.

We do yet not have outturn figures for 2009 but it looks as if total Exchequer spending, which includes current, capital and debt service expenditure, could rise by approximately 7%. We do not yet know. Inflation is negative so there has been a very sizeable real increase in Government spending this year. This may surprise some people because there have been cuts in particular programmes. The Government has taken four sets of measures since last July. The budget was brought forward to October, there was a package of measures in January and an emergency budget in April. There were cuts in respect of what had been planned in respect of each of these measures. However, spending on social welfare has increased very rapidly because there is an increasing number unemployed and claiming various benefits. Our debt service bill has increased very rapidly. Once one starts borrowing at double-digit levels, the interest bill starts clocking up pretty fast. One must cut elsewhere to prevent even faster increases.

Let us consider what has happened to real GNP, the best overall measure of national income. It gives an idea of what is occurring in respect of the real basis for taxation. Improvements stopped early in 2007. There were fluctuations since then but there was basically a sideways trend until the first quarter of 2008. The first quarter of that year represented the peak. Since then, there has been a fall in the order of 13.5%. The figures to hand pertain to the period to the second quarter of 2009. In just five quarters, real GNP has decreased by 13.5%. That is real national income and what is available for the private sector, the Government and everybody else to share. One sometimes gets the impression that people are talking about whether we should have a reduction in our incomes. It has already happened and we can pretend it has not by borrowing. However, real GNP up to the second quarter of this year is 13.5% below the level that obtained five quarters heretofore.

The next chart shows Exchequer spending excluding debt service, that is, Exchequer spending on the current side. The figure for capital expenditure excludes the National Pension Reserve Fund. What is interesting about the chart is that it shows that the percentage of GNP being absorbed by Exchequer spending, excluding debt service, is back to where it was in the early and mid-1980s. People always object when there is pressure to reduce spending but, because of the steady increase in spending we have already witnessed and the reduction in GNP, the percentage of GNP we are absorbing through the Exchequer is now at the level that obtained in the 1980s.

The next chart shows the gap between Government spending and revenue. One can see spending has trundled along at quite a pace into 2009 and that Government revenue has just collapsed over the past few years. Revenue is weak under all headings. There is falling employment, which naturally affects PAYE and PRSI yields. The savings ratio has risen, which affects adversely all consumption taxes. It affects excise duties and VAT. There has been revenue weakness under all headings because of the faltering economy.

Particularly noticeable is the decline in property-related taxes, particularly VAT on new houses, capital gains tax on non-residential property and stamp duties. The yield from these taxes has dropped by €6 billion. This decrease, which can be connected very closely to the bursting of the credit-fuelled property bubble, occurred in just three years. That explains why Government spending and revenue have diverged so rapidly.

The next chart shows what has been happening to the national debt and debt interest as a percentage of tax revenue. The figures looked really fine until 2007 and even 2008, but in the latter year they turned. The national debt in billions of euro and the proportion of debt service as a percentage of tax revenue suddenly headed northwards. It is the suddenness of this that we must note. Obviously, the figure for 2009 is a forecast, as is that for 2010. It is important to understand that, even with the fiscal adjustment measures that have already been adopted and those the Government has proposed for 2010, both the outstanding debt and the interest bill relative to tax revenue are still increasing at a very rapid pace.

The next table is an update of the Stability and Growth Pact update that the Government released in April as part of the emergency budget. The Government's update has been overtaken by events. My figures are not really official but my best guesses at how the figures now look. There will, I am sure, be official projections on 9 December.

The GDP deficit this year will be 12%, or a little more depending on tax revenue. With the adjustment measures the Government is proposing for the budget, which will result in cuts of approximately €4 billion, the deficit will still be 12% next year. Debt as a percentage of GDP according to the EUROSTAT definition will rise substantially – I refer to a gross debt figure – and will eventually stabilise, perhaps by 2013, if we can reduce the deficit as shown in the slide. This is predicated on there being an end to the downturn next year and some reasonable growth figures in 2011, 2012 and 2013.

The numbers are meant to remind us that it is difficult when debt service starts clicking in at a rapid pace and when there is a high rate of social transfers because so many people are relying on the social welfare system during the downturn. We learnt this in the 1980s. It is difficult in the aforementioned circumstances to simply stop expenditure from rising. If tax revenues are depressed, as they are, it is difficult to stop the deficit from becoming greater. We have witnessed this again in recent years.

We are all aware that one can divide gross Government spending in many different ways, including into departmental Votes. A useful way to think of it is the division between social welfare, Exchequer pay and pensions, most of which is incurred in the health and education sectors, and other programmes. Gross current spending, when broken down, works out at social welfare amounting to 37%, Exchequer pay and pension, 35%, and other programmes, 28%. Many argue social welfare should be spared and pay not cut. If one goes down that route then adjustments must take place in a small portion of the overall programmes. Redefining sizeable expenditure programmes means that the proportion of cuts in the rest of them have to be much larger.

The consumer price index has been chugging along with 2% to 4% increases for many years. It has now turned dramatically negative. The falling price level means the real value of rates of payment in the social welfare system has risen in 2009. There were increases in January of between 3% and 3.3% in the various social welfare rates of payment while the consume price index is down 6.5% in the past 12 months.

A better measure of inflation, which excludes mortgage interest payment, is the harmonised index of consumer prices. It is down just under 3%. It follows that the real value of social welfare rates of payment are 6% higher than they were 12 months ago. Something similar has happened to the value of a given level of gross pay. Of course, there have been tax increases in the form of the income levy and increase in the health levy on earned income. It is also true that the real value of credits and allowances in the tax system has gone up because of the decline in the price level.

The special group was asked to examine gross current Exchequer expenditure. It examined a few minor capital items because they were so intimately connected with some current items. It was not asked to review the capital programme. While it did not examine rates of pay, it examined allowances and other issues to do with public service pensions.

Recommendations were made about those but none about rates of pay. The group did not examine the taxation side. In addition to whatever current spending cuts the Government decides upon, it can restrain Exchequer capital spending. There are many reasons why it might do this. The slowdown in economic activity means that in 2013 the level of real GDP in the country could be as much 24% lower than was assumed to be the case when the national development plan was put together. It assumed growth would be at 4.5% in 2008 when it was negative in 2009. We have lost five years in these terms. This means capacity driven projects are less urgent than they were. Accordingly, it makes sense to restrain Exchequer capital. In addition, there has been a 30% decline in tender prices according to the Society of Chartered Surveyors. That means €1 billion is worth more than it used to be in terms of what it can purchase.

It is open to the Government to make changes on the taxation side in the budget. It has indicated it is not much attracted to that. That is where most of the adjustment has come to date. Clearly, the Government can take measures to expand the tax base or change rates of taxation. Finally the pay bill can be reduced through reductions of rates of pay. None of these was considered in our recommendations.

It is important to understand that this is a little bit different from the last Irish fiscal consolidation in the sense that we are now recovering from a bubble in the economy. The economy got unbalanced and too big by 2007. It follows that a return to the pre-crisis year 2007 is desirable. However, 2007 was not a good place to be. There was an iffy banking system, a construction sector that was too large and the economy was uncompetitive. A return to 2007 is not desirable or possible in the sense that there is nobody to finance another bubble. We have to restore competitiveness through costs cuts because it cannot be restored through devaluation. It is also the case that most of the deficit is structural in the sense that it will not automatically be eliminated when recovery eventually comes.

There is too much debt throughout the economy. It is over-leveraged with excessive borrowing from abroad through the banking system, rather than through the Government, which must be eliminated. That explains the increase that has already occurred in the private sector savings rate.

People naturally are resistant to austerity programmes. There is much resistance to the cuts the Government is seeking and were recommended by the special group. It has been suggested we defer adjustments to 2017 or 2018. The first difficulty with that is that Ireland has been given a derogation from the Stability and Growth Pact by the EU. It is not clear it would agree to spinning out adjustment to then. The pact has been suspended because of the depth of the recession but it has not been abandoned.

We must be realistic of our membership of the eurozone. The international debt markets remain very fragile. It is not clear that any peripheral eurozone country which formally abandons its fiscal consolidation programme would find its ability to borrow unaffected by that. Either the markets may become unwilling to lend or the interest rates paid would shoot back up. We are already paying a penalty interest rate. There is also the question of a policy choice of whether a re-run of the 1980s is desirable.

I thank Mr. McCarthy for his presentation.

What were the interest rates Ireland paid on its national debt in the 1980s which accumulated far more quickly?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

As far as I can recall all income tax revenue was absorbed by debt services towards the end of that time. I can get the exact figures for the Deputy and submit them later.

It is an important point to bear in mind. It makes it even worse now.

The debt ratio is approximately 125%.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

There are several different definitions of the outstanding debt. There are gross and net definitions. A new definition, not around in the 1980s but now used by EUROSTAT, is termed the GGB, general government balance, debt. It can be quite confusing. When I was discussing these issues with the Department of Finance officials during the summer, someone said there are six people who understand the Irish Exchequer accounts, three of whom are dead. There are alternative definitions of all sorts of different things and it is easy to get confused. We ended up, on the old definition of Exchequer debt, with a peak of 118% of GDP.

What would that be under the new definition?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

It would not be that different. It is a gross definition. The big difference between now and the 1980s is that the international credit markets had a nervous breakdown in 2008 and early 2009. Every government in the world is borrowing at a phenomenal rate. The UK Government has a deficit of 12% of GDP while the United States Government is heading there. Many other governments have large borrowing requirements. The last time that was not the case. This time, central banks have been engaged in quantitative easing, which means they have been creating money to lend to banks to buy government bonds. This quantitative easing is likely to be steadily withdrawn from the middle of next year onwards. The notion that international sovereign credit markets have got over the worst and will settle down and that the ATM is in perfect working order again is not reasonable. For peripheral eurozone countries as well as ourselves, there remains the risk that, if fiscal consolidation is not adhered to, there could be real problems in the bond market in six or 12 months' time.

I welcome the group and thank it for the considerable amount of work it has done. As an observer of spending Estimates of many years, it is the singularly most opaque system with which to get to grips as a Member of the Oireachtas. As traditionally presented to us, the Estimates are designed to conceal, not reveal. It is crazy that, even with the discussion on the introduction of performance indicators, those for this year's spending will only be published six months into next year. When we make decisions about spending for next year, we do not have a clue as to what Departments believe can be achieved.

Our guests have done us a real service. For the first time, albeit on a tight mandate of cutting, they have shed some light on the make-up of public spending and the widespread belief that we have allowed agencies to grow like topsy without proper mandates or accountability. The Oireachtas has been complicit in this. In many ways, we are its victims because we cannot ask questions about the performance of many of those agencies. Instead, we are told that something is a matter of day-to-day spending. What the group has done is useful, although incomplete in terms of a reform agenda.

What should the Department of Finance and other Departments do in terms of presenting meaningful choices to the Oireachtas in the run up to every year's Estimates? For example, should Departments' performance commitments be published at the same time as their bids for money? Should the Oireachtas see the bids before they are signed off by Departments, thereby allowing meaningful engagement?

Presumably, Mr. McCarthy has been on a roadshow since the report's publication. What changes should be made to it to make savings more effectively? Correspondingly, what proposals in the report would he reconsider given the analysis of their impact, although their impact was not in his remit? He proposed that 17,500 people be removed from the public service. I wish to ask about this proposal's implementation. He identified the agencies, bodies and Departments from which they will be drawn. How will it be done? Is a process in place for moving people from areas in which they are not required to those in which they are? Does he envisage a redundancy programme to deliver the proposal, given the fact that most vacancies arising in other areas are trapped by the embargo? As I understand it, there is no opportunity to move people freed up in Department X to Department Y because an embargo has been applied to the vacancy in the latter.

This leads me to a wider question, in that no implementation strategy is attached to the proposals. While a strategy is not a part of Mr. McCarthy's remit and the Government must sign off before there can be any, does he agree that, given the crisis, delaying an implementation strategy 12 months after he first started reporting on proposals is a dangerously casual approach? Since the report's publication, do we have the tools of implementation, if not an actual implementation strategy, to deliver the changes he has in mind? Two or three budgets ago, the Government announced the merger and rationalisation of a rake of agencies. I cannot remember how many. Some 18 months on, the Department of Finance has admitted that no savings have been identified and many of them have not been delivered. The pipeline from Government commitment to some of these decisions to the realisation of savings seems long. What is this pipeline's nature?

The concept of shared services and outsourcing offers significant opportunities for savings in the public service. It was one of the themes mentioned by Mr. McCarthy, but his report is remarkably timid in terms of which services can be extracted and consolidated in a particular centre to be delivered more cost effectively. On reflection, is there more information and could he shed more light? It seems that we are replicating HR, finance, recruitment, money collection, grant application processing and payment service functions in many Departments. A new vision of a public service would seek to consolidate them.

Against the background of our suggestion that the report should not have gone to this committee exclusively but to each committee that could shed more light on what the report states about its respective Department, I wish to clarify some points about our narrow remit on the Department of Finance, the OPW and Department of the Taoiseach group of services. More than 700 job savings were targeted, half of which were already in Revenue's 2009 spending plan. Quite a number were in the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, where intended recruitment was cancelled. The only significant saving is in the Commission for Public Service Appointments, which will drop to nil. How did Mr. McCarthy not identify property activities like Ordnance Survey Ireland, Valuation Office Ireland and the Property Registration Authority at a time when such activities have reduced dramatically?

I examined the large agencies in our remit that had substantial increases in staff since 2002, including the DPP's office, the Attorney General's office, the Chief State Solicitor's office, the State Laboratory and the Office of the Ombudsman. None of them has been targeted for any staff savings. On the face of it, one wonders how these sub-agencies escaped.

Within our budget, there is great scope in respect of the management of property. The OPW is a large property agency, but it never supplies us with the performance information that one would expect from a property agency. Mr. McCarthy touched on this matter, but it appears that his arms were tied behind his back because he did not have access to enough information. Since he made his recommendations, can he shed more light on the scope for better management of our property regime, particularly at a time when we do not apply even a nominal charge to those agencies occupying the properties? Surely this is an area in which significant savings could be achieved.

I have referred to areas that are in the finance brief, as we are used to seeing them. The work done by Mr. McCarthy is very useful. There is a need for ongoing professional input into Oireachtas consideration of spending that Mr. McCarthy has brought to bear, albeit accidentally, this year. We need this sort of input even if one does not like what Mr. McCarthy says a lot of the time. We need that harrowing and furrowing of the ground so that we can make informed decisions.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I thank Deputy Bruton. He asked first about the manner in which expenditure proposals are brought to the Oireachtas and whether Departments could do more. They could and I recall initiatives dating back to the 1980s when a special public expenditure committee was established in the Dáil and White Papers and Green Papers were published on Estimates and the budgetary process. This year the Government published its pre-budget expenditure advice in full in mid-summer and a couple of thousand pages of background information on a website. This is the greatest reform in the way we do these things that has occurred in 20 years. It interesting that it occurred in the heat of battle, in the middle of a crisis. If someone had proposed that we do things this way ten years ago, when we were not in crisis, there would be an interdepartmental committee still sitting to figure out whether we should do it or not. What has happened this year in a crisis situation is a substantial change in the way we undertake consideration of public spending proposals.

I agree that the process of parliamentary scrutiny of spending needs a better set of metrics from Departments about output. Deputy Bruton referred to indicators. Deputy Bruton also asked whether we would make changes to the report. We had a deadline, starting in January with a large team of officials in the Department of Finance to assist us, and we stopped when we stopped. Had the time and resources been available, we could have addressed other matters. I will ask one of my colleagues to comment on one of these shortly.

Deputy Bruton asked about the reduction of 17,500 staff. We only drew attention to identifying reductions in numbers. We thought it pointless to produce a global but baseless figure such as 30,000 without a notion of where they might be. We tried to identify specifically areas of the public service where we thought we could get by with lower numbers. This is what the figure of 17,500 represents. It is not a statement that there are not other economies in numbers elsewhere in the system. We could not identify them in the time available to us so we restricted ourselves to what we could identify. Flexibility with regard to redeployment is essential if those numbers are to be achieved. Any programme that is to proceed on the basis of using natural wastage, early retirement and voluntary redundancy to achieve these numbers will be less likely to succeed unless there is a high level of flexibility about redeployment. That is not currently the case in parts of the public service because of trade union agreements. I will ask Mr. Pat McLoughlin to comment on this when I have finished.

Deputy Bruton referred to the implementation strategy. Ultimately, the Government is the implementation strategy. This is the report of the advisory committee and all these matters will be considered by the Cabinet which will decide what it will run with. Implementation is a matter for the Government system. I do not see how there could be a parallel implementation system attached to a committee, whose role is——

We saw the announcement of rationalisation some 18 months ago and no savings have been made. Some 43 rationalisations are proposed by Mr. McCarthy across different sectors. Does Mr. McCarthy believe this can be done, delivering cost savings? I am sure the Department of Finance wants savings but they do not appear to be materialising. Part of the process is to show the obstacles certain decisions come up against so that they do not deliver savings.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

The implementation machinery is the system of Departments and agencies under them. It is a matter for the Government of the day to chase things and make sure they are happening. I will skip Deputy Bruton's point on shared services. He also raised questions about the group of Votes attached to the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance. I will pass some of these questions to my colleagues.

One area we did not examine intensively was local government. Local government in Ireland is financed through an Exchequer subvention but local authorities have substantial own resources. In the time available, we did not have an opportunity to examine the gross expenditure of the local authority sector. We would like to have done this. Deputy Bruton also referred to redeployment and mobility bars, shared services and outsourcing. I invite Mr. Pat McLoughlin to comment on this after Mr. Donal McNally.

Mr. Donal McNally

I refer to the performance targets for better transparency information that can be published. We covered this in pages 22 to 24 and remarked that the management focus across Departments still seems to be on securing and retaining the maximum volume of expenditure and accounting in this way for activities. Details on outputs and performance seem to be secondary. We agree that the more transparency and the more information, the better the policy making and decisions. We have set out a list of suggestions with regard to evaluation before and after decisions are made.

Regarding redeployment, we have had some success but we could do with more in the social welfare area. We successfully redeployed people, even though it took a little longer than we hoped. The so-called embargo is really a moratorium because there can be replacements, transfers and moves. We have negotiated employment control frameworks in the health and education sectors. The Department of Finance does not want to receive applications for the replacement of every person in the system. Control should rest with those who are managing. The implementation strategy is a matter for Government, as Mr. McCarthy said. We must develop the tools for implementation if they are not there. Discussions are taking place in other fora about this.

We would like to see greater progress on the rationalisation of agencies. I am told that 30 proposals were made and 16 have been implemented, with savings of €5 million in 2010 and longer-term savings of €8 million. These are small by any standard but part of the reason for integrating agencies was to achieve greater efficiency and better delivery of service. It was not simply driven by savings. It takes time to achieve this.

There was a proposal to merge the Property Registration Authority, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Valuation Office because they deal with similar functions. Further measures proposed in the report will be examined by Government shortly to see what can be done. Reference was made to areas such as routine payments. Four different areas of the State are paying different types of civil servants, teachers, gardaí and Defence Forces personnel and doing the same job. There can be difficulty in trying to get people to change but we tried to focus on suggesting that new functions would be outsourced and that Departments should show why they should not be outsourced. The onus should be on proving this point. Very often, the only implementation tool available to the Department of Finance is to cut the amount of money being given. It is rather crude but it can be effective at times. Others might speak on the management of property. The more metrics there are the better. It was stated by a member of the group who is not present that in the private sector metrics such as how much a property costs and whether one can get it cheaper are examined very closely. There are lessons to be learned.

Mr. Pat McLoughlin

It was clear from the data we analysed that as agencies were established they developed corporate functions such as finance, human resources and IT. No real assessment was done on whether this could have been done in any other way. A good example of this is that the Ombudsman for Children developed from a different Department to the Ombudsman and also established core functions. A decision must be taken on either the extent to which they should be consolidated in the public system or the extent to which they can be outsourced. In considering this, one examines the pension costs involved in keeping it in the public system and that one is leveraging investment already made by the private sector.

We identified much potential in procurement. There are 34 agencies involved in procurement for local authorities and naturally one will not get efficiencies of scale and volume. Child care committees and city and county enterprise boards are established by all local authorities. It was clear that many core functions could be done better and that is not only in the public system. In the disability sector, the Comptroller and Auditor General identified approximately 800 organisations which all have a support structure paid for by the State through grants from the HSE or other agencies or by fundraising which takes from the potential for providing core services by investing in management, administration and support costs. There is much fertile ground where non-core services could be provided in a co-ordinated way through shared services. They do not need to be provided in-house and there is potential to outsource them.

I thank Mr. McCarthy and his colleagues for the work that they have done in the compilation of the report and for their presentation today. The Government's objective of achieving €4 billion in cuts next year will be announced in the budget on 9 December. The report sets out proposals that would amount to €5.3 billion in cuts overall. Does Mr. McCarthy have a view on the split between the social welfare code, public sector pay, other programmes services and capital spending in the €4 billion cuts in expenditure which the Government should seek to achieve next year? Given the immediate issue of achieving this level of cuts how would Mr. McCarthy structure the split of the €4 billion?

Deputy Richard Bruton made a point on the impact of the cuts. Was any consideration given to the financial cost of the cuts that would be imposed? The report identifies a potential reduction in numbers of more than 17,000 in the public sector. The reduction in Government spending would result in less disposable income. Some of the report's critics have argued that it would result in a deflationary spiral. How would Mr. McCarthy address this point? Does the urgent necessity of securing a correction to the public finances take priority over the negative effects of a reduction in spending?

Will Mr. McCarthy outline what he sees as the consequences for the Government and country if the public finance crisis is not tackled? He referred to this towards the end of his presentation when discussing the international debt markets. If the Government does not achieve the €4 billion in cuts next year and we allow the deficit to climb to 14% and beyond over the coming years what will be the implications for our economic sovereignty? Mr. McCarthy mentioned the bond markets where developments may occur as they are becoming increasingly nervous. What is likely to happen over the next six to 12 months? To some degree, there is a false sense of security because of the success of the NTMA in selling bonds in recent months. People may take the view that we can continue down this road and ICTU has advocated a variation of it.

The issue of public sector pay was not in Mr. McCarthy's terms of reference. Does he wish to take this opportunity to comment on it, particularly pay at senior levels throughout the public sector, in universities, the HSE, civil servants and politicians? Chief executives of semi-State organisations have remuneration packages of €500,000 or more.

The report recommends a flat rate cut in child benefit of 20%. Will Mr. McCarthy outline the rationale for recommending this rather than means testing or taxing? The Commission on Taxation has a different proposal. If money must be saved out of the €2.5 billion of child benefit why did the report recommend a simple cut?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I thank the Deputy. He raised the question of the €4 billion which the Government is considering in budget adjustments versus the €5.3 billion in cuts that we identified in the report. These are not directly comparable. The €5.3 billion we identified in the report was almost all from gross current spending and it was not all attainable in 2010. We stressed that some of it would be attained in 2011 and later. The Government is seeking an overall package of €4 billion in adjustments in the coming year. That could include Exchequer capital and one can be sure that it will. It will include at least some taxation measures; the Government seems to be committed to introducing a carbon tax and other adjustments may be made on the taxation side.

We have nothing to state on rates of pay and the budget may include measures on these. In all likelihood, the amount of current spending cuts as a part of the overall package will be less than €4 billion. It is also the case that our recommendations were not exhaustive. The Government might come across current spending cuts that it considers to make more sense than some of those we suggested. That happened on the previous occasion we had a bord snip process in the late 1980s, when the Government made some cuts that went outside what even the Department of Finance could conceive. One can imagine how ingenious that Government must have been.

Deputy McGrath asked how I would divide up the €4 billion in cuts. These are political questions as well as economic ones. The highest spending Departments, namely, Social and Family Affairs, Education and Science, and Health and Children, absorb approximately two thirds of all Government current spending. We must embark on making a large fiscal adjustment, as is the case in Britain, and in Britain there is a debate on whether health should be exempt. If the large Votes, which absorb two thirds of Government spending in all western European countries, are exempted entirely, one could have an impossible task in trying to run the Defence Forces, the Garda and local authorities and make all the cuts in whatever is left. If one decides to make no cuts in education it assumes that everything is fine and that not a penny is being wasted. A priori that is unlikely in such a huge sector, the budget of which has expanded dramatically over the past eight or ten years.

In Ireland, there is a tendency to assume that capital spending is sacred and that every penny of capital spending is on very valuable and productive infrastructure. That is not true. Many inadvisable and foolish things creep into the capital programme from time to time. Some of them then creep back out again. The economy is on a much lower growth trajectory than was thought at the time the PCP was developed. A good example of this is the new terminal at Dublin Airport, which has been completed and will open shortly. Traffic has decreased significantly and it is questionable whether certain airlines even want to move into it. I do not blame the Dublin Airport Authority because the project was commenced several years before the downturn. However, we now know that economic activity and the demand on infrastructure in 2013 and 2014 will be far below the projections of the national development plan. It would be prudent, therefore, to defer various capital programmes even if we had all the money in the world because the expected demand will not materialise.

Deputy Michael McGrath's second question concerned the financial cost of cuts and the deflationary impact of reductions in staff and disposable income. The obverse of that is stimulating the economy and creating sufficient tax revenue to pay for the stimulus. I do not believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or self-financing expenditure increases, nor do I believe that cutting expenditure does not improve the budget. That is the way it is.

The Deputy asked the important question of what would happen if the Government did not make the €4 billion adjustment in the coming budget. The dangers are real and we have already slipped. We were meant to reach a deficit target of 10.75% this year but it has risen to 12%. It appears that expenditure will be on target but tax revenue has weakened. It is always difficult to predict revenue. It would be very dangerous if the Government formally stated that it is going to borrow 14% or 15% of GDP next year in the hope that sovereign debt will be grand not only because of the fragility in sovereign credit markets but also because we have been there before. That is what happened the last time and we ended up with a lost decade. It will take up to five years to get on top of this in any case but there is every reason for addressing the deficit as quickly as is practicable. I do not know what will be gained by spinning it out for ten years, even if it was possible to do so.

In regard to the pay of senior public service executives, I understand the Minister for Finance has received a report from the group he appointed to look into top level remuneration. Perhaps Mr. McNally can expand on that issue.

Mr. Donal McNally

I understand that is the position.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

The report has not been released yet.

I was only asking Mr. McCarthy's personal view.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

There is an interesting system in the Netherlands. The most highly paid public official in that country is its Prime Minister and everybody else gets a few quid less. That is worth considering.

In regard to our recommendation on child benefit, bear in mind that our report was released in advance of the report of the Commission on Taxation. We accepted that economies had to be made given that child benefit costs €2.5 billion annually. The amount spent has rocketed over the past seven years to the point that it has become a sizeable component of the social welfare budget. It is a universal benefit which is paid to everybody, regardless of income. One of the options we recommended for consideration was a flat rate cut across the board but we drew attention to the fact that the Commission on Taxation would be considering two alternatives, namely, means testing or taxing it. In the latter case, those in the lower income groups would continue to receive the full benefit whereas it would be shaved for higher groups according to their tax rates. These are the three options which the Minister for Social and Family Affairs has been discussing. The across the board cut could be considered as a fall back position if the other alternatives are not practical. Means testing always creates administrative burdens, and difficulties also arise in taxing a household benefit in an individualised taxation system. All we recommended was child benefit be cut to the rate paid a few years ago but clearly the Government is considering all the alternatives.

Due to other business, I must vacate the Chair. With members' agreement, I propose that the Vice Chairman shall replace me for the duration of my absence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Michael McGrath took the Chair.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the witnesses. What stands out from the graph describing the fall in GNP is how it has been decreasing since 2000. A small recovery was followed by continuous falls. That is the point at which we moved from a relatively conservative garnering of the gains made since 1993 towards spending a lot. What is Mr. McCarthy's impression of the top leadership in public service organisations? Would he agree that leadership is vital when one is fostering change? When one compares the graph against budget expenditure during that period, one wonders about the quality of the advice available within Departments and public bodies. Did the role of critical State institutions, such as the Department of Finance, the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank, in the collapse of the banks impact on his opinion about the calibre of their leadership? Did the decentralisation debacle substantially undermine morale in the public service, as has been suggested by a number of public servants, not because of the principle of the issue but due to confusion and immensity of ambition? It was originally intended that decentralisation would be implemented over a three-year period. In my view, significant costs were incurred because of the confusion sown by that aspect. I would be interested in hearing Mr. McCarthy's view of the issue.

He has been very critical of elements of third level education policy, including the aggrandisement of the salaries and awards of those at the top of Irish universities and third level institutions. I have heard him comment on this issue at several conferences. The report is also critical of investments in science and technology at third level. Does his criticism concern the principle of the investments themselves or the amount of money involved and the structures developed to deal with it? Being married to a mathematician, I hold the view that investment in science, technology and mathematics at second level is critical to our future. Some of Mr. McCarthy's harshest comments appear to be reserved for the science programmes and for the aggrandisation of senior office holders in our universities in particular. As I recall, one senior university professor has a salary of well over €400,000, and I saw his boss defend that on the principle that he had brought in many research contracts for the college.

Mr. McCarthy also has smaller recommendations in the area of education. For example, he points out that the HEA employs 59 people to carry out a particular function and the Department of Education and Science employs 44 people to carry out the same function. There is a reasonable recommendation that these should be merged. What has been the response to this? I recall similar times in the 1970s and 1980s, and when I served in government. The legacy of reports from those eras was that because Civil Service Departments were so conservative and hostile to change, the best way to achieve change was to separate the functions by establishing bodies outside the main Department. Many of Mr. McCarthy's recommendations suggest that these subsidiary bodies be brought back home. I asked him at the beginning about leadership at senior Civil Service level. If all these bodies were brought home, does Mr. McCarthy have confidence that the existing tranche of senior management in the various Department can accept and lead change?

With regard to the chapter on what is popularly called "Craggy", after the island in "Father Ted" — that is, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, led by the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív — Mr. McCarthy suggested it be abolished. Was he astonished, therefore, to see large advertisements in last weekend's national newspapers — for which I am sure the newspapers were grateful — suggesting that a new Secretary General was to be appointed to that Department? I know the Government has not yet made a decision in this regard. However, with all the surplus people Mr. McCarthy identified, was he surprised to see it was intended to recruit another senior person? I say this with some personal knowledge of the matter; in the Fianna Fáil-Labour Party Government of 1992 to 1994, I was a Minister of State under the then Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Woods, and I was responsible for a particular programme, which was administered by no more than 30 civil servants, myself and the senior Minister. Many of those civil servants went on to be outstanding and leading civil servants, so perhaps they were of a particularly exceptional calibre, because it became a rapid promotion point within the general Civil Service.

Mr. McCarthy has radical proposals for shaking up the public service, many of which make a great deal of sense. What is the structure for delivering this? Many people in the Civil Service are trapped in hierarchies that are boring and do not allow them to fulfil their potential. As well as saving money, there is a point about releasing energy and dynamism that allows people to work well. I welcome those elements of the report. Was Mr. McCarthy able to come to terms with any of this?

I have been a member of two local authorities at different times. The managing director of Microsoft, talking about local authorities, spoke about South Dublin County Council in glowing terms. As a foreign direct investor, Microsoft's experience of the county council was fantastic. I have had similar experience from councils myself. They will bend over backwards to provide a particular menu that an incoming investor requires. How does Irish public service infrastructure compare to that of other EU states in terms of value for money for the taxpayer? No doubt there are elements that are absolutely excellent, but there are also elements that people — particularly those who work within those elements — would wish to see changed. How do we get this dynamic movement, never mind the essential savings?

I have some questions regarding FÁS and the HSE. After the McCarthy report was published, we all learned much more about FÁS than we knew previously. We now have a terrible unemployment crisis, so FÁS — or a FÁS-type institution — is even more important than it was when Mr. McCarthy drafted his report. How does he see dynamic change being provided for? To return to the point about the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, I accept the argument being made by many family resource organisations and community development programmes around the country that now, in view of the level of unemployment, those resources are needed more than ever. However, is it a case of maintaining the core activities and delivery of services to people on the ground, as opposed to holding on to large amounts of administration? Does Mr. McCarthy think many of our programmes are heavily over-administered, with excessive duplication? Is there any mechanism in the Civil Service and public bodies, following the McCarthy report, to have a sort of meter running on duplication? Have we tried to deal with this?

My question about the HSE is related to that asked by Deputy McGrath. The Minister seems to seek cuts to the HSE of around €1.3 billion, perhaps half from programme cuts and half from wage cuts and so on. I am aware that Mr. McLoughlin has experience in this area. I find it difficult to understand how this can happen. In addition, in the section of the report dealing with the Department of Finance, it never touched on the subject of tax expenditure. In the HSE there has been massive creation of private hospitals — rather like the private hotels that were the subject of Peter Bacon's report published last week — on the back of tax expenditure. Clearly, we now have far too many of them, and they are not making a bob. One would need another report on this area. In the meantime, however, they are a vast drag on the traditional private hospital sector and the public sector. When talking about cuts, does Mr. McCarthy have any sense of how to retain the core of an organisation, or is it ultimately a version of slash and burn? This would presumably be even more deflationary than a more thought-out procedure with negotiation on how to approach the issue.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

The Deputy asked about public expenditure control from 2000 onwards. I thought it was poor and said so at the time. I do not recall the Opposition parties in the Dáil being particularly vociferous in objecting to the increases as they were occurring. On the question of the advice that was or was not given to the Minister for Finance along the way, we do not know. There is a 30-year rule, and we will know in 20 or 25 years' time. For the record, however, many economists felt that control on public spending from 2000 onwards was poor and that this would eventually catch up with us, which it did.

The Deputy also mentioned decentralisation. It seems to me that programme has been more or less scaled down now, but costs have been incurred.

On third level education policy, it is the case that academic salaries in Ireland are generally higher than in the UK or in continental European countries. That is not unique to the third level education sector but seems to be true in respect of quite a number of public service areas in Ireland, and also in professions. It is an element in our cost base with which we must deal.

Regarding fourth level education and the big push on expanding PhD output, more spending on science and technology and fundamental research programmes and so on, in the Irish university system, the pace of expansion of funding in these areas over the past decade has been phenomenal. We now spend very large budgets in this area. The special group took the view that, given the current financial crisis, the onus of proof must shift. Given the current position of the public finances, it cannot be the case that the onus of proof be permanently on the Department of Finance and its advisory committees to show that some spending is debatable. The onus of proof must be shifted on to those who wish to maintain the very high budgets they are delivering. In that area, it seems to be an article of faith with many people that science and technology are good things, as is spending more money on them. One either believes or one does not. In current financial circumstances we cannot proceed like that.

A point was made about mathematics in secondary schools. As someone who has to teach economics to undergraduates, I would welcome an improvement in mathematical performance in secondary schools. The question of literacy was raised also. We ask essay type questions the odd time. There was a question about the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and the number of officials in the parent Department who seem to be doing the same work. We have suggested that this unit be brought back into the Department.

More generally, with regard to the rationalisation of quangos and the abolition of layers of administration, we made many recommendations in that area throughout the report. A number of Deputies on the Opposition side produced documents along these lines in recent years. The reason for such action is two-fold: first, to cut cost, second, to make the system a bit more transparent. It becomes very difficult to know what is going on with multistream funding and different units around the country, many of which are non-statutory, pulling in funds from several different Departments. One cannot really see what is going on and it is very difficult to see how any kind of meaningful value for money audit can be done in some of these areas. We made many proposals along those lines, including the one the Deputy mentioned in respect of the HEA.

Regarding the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, to which I believe the Deputy referred, we asked whether that Department ought to be one of the 15 laid down by the Constitution. Many of its functions used to be undertaken by different Departments and it was not clear to us that there was enough there to justify having a distinct Department. There was a similar case with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, all of whose functions, at one stage or another, were fulfilled by other Departments. However, with regard to how the 15 full Cabinet Ministers permitted under the Constitution should be divided between the different activities of Government, changes are made all the time. Every time a new Government is formed there tend to be changes. We made that suggestion in the context of the next time the architecture of Departments comes to be reviewed.

The Deputy made some other points about local authorities. I shall ask Mr. McLoughlin to speak about the HSE. The point the Deputy made about South Dublin County Council and Microsoft rang a bell with me. I have always found that executives, particularly those from US multinational companies, are always stunned at the level of day-to-day assistance they get, not only from local authorities but from Ministers. I met such a man some eight or ten years ago. A Minister had given him his mobile telephone number although he had the telephone for only a short while at that stage. He said that if the man had any problems he should phone the Minister. People are unused to that. It does not happen in the United States or continental European countries but it happens here. That executives are made to feel they have instant access to decision making at both local and central government levels has been one of the strengths of our inward investment programme down the years. It is very positive and we should try to retain it.

On the other hand, the Deputy mentioned South Dublin County Council which is one of the biggest councils in the country. We drew attention to the existence of very large numbers of small councils and the overhead costs involved and suggested rationalisation of local government and a reduction in the number of local authorities. Perhaps Mr. McLaughlin might expand on some of those points.

Would Mr. McCarthy care to comment on the leadership he found in the senior echelons of the public service? In any change process leadership is surely vital.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

It is, of course, and in current circumstances, after eight or ten years in which budgets were pretty generous, it is challenging for officials who lead various Departments and State agencies. It is somewhat early to judge whether they have responded to that.

Mr. Pat McLoughlin

I shall follow up the point about local authorities. There are 29 county councils, five city councils, eight borough councils, 75 town councils, eight regional authorities and two regional assemblies. It is very difficult to get a matrix as to the appropriate structure. Different countries go for different structures. They may have a small number of regional authorities with no local authorities and town councils.

When one looks at the situation in Ireland, the population spread between local authorities from lowest to highest is in the order of 29,000 to more than 500,000. One can see how the spread is a difficulty. The smallest local authority will still have quite a high management structure and a cost structure associated with that, and will have strategic policy committees, and so on. That was one of the reasons we felt there was potential for change in the 17 local authorities with a population less than 100,000, which would be considered a fairly small unit size in terms of management.

Regarding the HSE, we had a combination of what we felt are restrictive practices, such as agreements with unions that need to be changed. On the establishment of the HSE, agreements were made with IMPACT and the Psychiatric Nurses Association in respect of change. If we are to get efficiencies from our existing stock, particularly in the acute hospital system, laboratories, theatres and radiology, we have to sweat those assets and must have an efficient system for payment of those. We feel it is very appropriate to have the working day as a norm of 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. and this should not attract any additional premia. In terms of flexibility we identified many areas with regard to pay that we felt had potential.

There has been some criticism of the co-payment we recommended in respect of prescriptions but one must look at co-payment in the context of other recommendations we made on prescriptions and the drugs budget. The drugs budget has been expanding rapidly. We also made recommendations with regard to drug formulae at hospital level that would impact also on prescribing in the community. We made recommendations with regard to competitive pricing at retail pharmacy level. Regarding the type of contracts which general practitioners and pharmacists have with the State, no other section would have contracts like that, with prices guaranteed and access and restricted entry in respect of others who might wish to go into that space.

We identified a range of measures. We also identified the passport nature of the medical card with regard to the additional benefits that accrue to people by virtue of having a medical card. These were of significant cost to the State.

I would not like to comment on the issue of private beds. We did not discuss it. Overall, however, we felt the programme was right to maintain an efficient number of hospital beds. We have that number. If we get access points for those hospital beds on the one hand, and egress by means of good primary care services in the community and services for older people, we can make maximum use of those beds.

At any one time, approximately 1,000 beds are blocked. It is very difficult to consider the acute bed system and argue it is efficient if it is being blocked at exit level. The policies of the Department of Health and Children and the HSE were correct in respect of developing primary care structures. However, there were several restrictive practices in respect of use of facilities, pay rates and the way in which pay is attracted in the health services that need to be changed because they were negotiated in a different era. In addition, the agreement with the IMPACT union did not allow the necessary flexibility to rationalise the corporate structures we identified. The HSE has identified these and it is in negotiations with the unions in respect of them. We protected front line services in so far as we could and we addressed such issues as efficiency rather than any direct cuts in front line services.

I have several questions.

Seven people have indicated they wish to speak and we must conclude by 4 p.m. We will group the questions. We will take the questions of Deputies Fahey, O'Donnell and Andrews together and then allow the deputation to respond.

Deputy Michael Ahern resumed the Chair.

I thank Mr. McCarthy and his committee. They have done the State much service in challenging and changing our mind set on the need for public expenditure cuts, which is significant and something with which I agree. My first question does not particularly relate to the brief of the special group but it relates to fairness, equality and equity. Does Mr. McCarthy agree that in terms of cuts in public sector pay the percentage cut must be tied to the pay level and that it must start at, say, 20% for pay in excess of €200,000, 15% in excess of €150,000, 10% in excess of €100,000 down to whatever level it takes, perhaps as far as €35,000 or €40,000 with smaller pay cuts at those levels to achieve the €1.3 billion saving? Will Mr. McCarthy provide a personal comment on the proposal to have a third rate of tax, probably of the order of 65% for higher earners?

I refer to the question put by Deputy Bruton. Mr. McCarthy was asked to comment on public service numbers which, I believe, was a mistake. I agree fully with the proposals which relate to quangos and so on. However, the issue is the nature of the architecture of Departments. When it comes to the review, is it not the case that what is really necessary is for an existing Department to be replaced by a new Department of public service innovation, headed by a private sector change management guru who would become the Secretary General? It should be populated by the best people in the Civil Service from the bottom up and the top down and it should carry out the tasks to which Mr. McLoughlin referred. Some 200 to 300 human resources and change management people should be brought in from the private sector. The same number of middle management people should be brought out to learn the industrial psychology of the private sector. I agree with the sentiments of Deputy Bruton. The issue is about how we bring about these changes. With all due respect to the existing public service and the political system, I do not have confidence in the ability to bring about the radical and fundamental change necessary. I see a comment on this matter.

I put a question about the following matter outside the committee room. Let us assume we were able to attract foreign investment at a rate cheaper than Government borrowing at the moment. Is there any way in which a stimulus package could be put in place in the budget whereby €3 billion could be put into the development of critical infrastructure? I agree with the point made to the effect that there may be infrastructure in place at the moment that is not needed. However, there is critical infrastructure in the third and fourth level education sectors, in some acute health care areas such as cancer treatment, in the provision of school buildings such as the payment of millions of euros at present to rent prefabs and in the provision of primary health care centres in which we want to replace beds that are being wasted. These are all areas of critical infrastructure. I agree that a 30% reduction in tendering costs is necessary. In fact, it should be up to 50% in places.

Only a half an hour remains and other people have questions. Will the Deputy be precise and exact with his questions, please?

Some years ago, I heard Mr. McCarthy make a comparative analysis between the British and Irish economies in premises further up the road, not the Department of Finance. Will he comment on where we are at present in this regard? Are we better or worse than them?

We will stick with the report. Otherwise, we are entering another world.

We could go back to the same lecture hall.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I will try to answer very quickly. Deputy Fahey asked whether any adjustment in public service pay should be stepped with higher cuts for higher earners and so on. That sounds fair, however the research carried out by the Economic and Social Research Institute and the CSO indicates the premium in public service pay is not greater at higher salary levels. It indicates there is a premium being paid to public servants at all levels. It may sound fairer but if one believes in the notion that people in the public service should be paid more or less what they would have been paid in the private sector then it does not come out that way. That is what the ESRI and the CSO appear to be saying.

Never mind the ESRI. What does Mr. McCarthy believe?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I have not done any research on this subject and they have. They are competent people. I assume what they have done stacks up.

We must be very careful regarding the third rate of tax for higher earners. There are now four different ways of taxing earned income in Ireland: income tax, the health levy, which has been bifurcated and doubled, PRSI, of which the ceiling may or may not be removed in the upcoming budget and the gross income levy which has become more complex during the year. The marginal tax rate on high earners could end up at well in excess of 60% if the ceiling on PRSI is scrapped in the budget. We may end up with a third rate of tax de facto, depending on what the Minister decides.

The question of a new Minister for public service reform was raised. That is a decision for Government. I am not an expert in this area but it seems one could establish a separate outfit to carry out reform and everyone else will say that is fine and that Department is responsible for reform. There would be a new Department with "Reform" written on the front door but reform is everyone's business.

No one is driving it.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

Yes, but perhaps everyone should drive it.

Mr. Maurice O’Connell

We had a Department of Public Service in the 1970s and it did not succeed. There was also a Department of Economic Development.

That was because Mr. O'Connell did not let it succeed.

We cannot have everyone speaking together.

The only man that made a serious attempt was the former Minister, Mr. John Boland. The problem was public servants would not let him do the reforms——

There are other members of the committee and they must be allowed to put their questions.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I will answer the other questions put by Deputy Fahey. He suggested some €3 billion might be available and that some people would accept a yield cheaper than Government bond yields. If the Deputy informs me who they are I will contact the NTMA and they will send a wheelbarrow full of Government bonds to them straight away.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I refer to the general question on the public capital programme. Notwithstanding the downturn in activity there may remain priority components within the programme. I do not argue we should stop having a public capital programme. However, it does not make sense to push ahead with capacity driven investments as if the downturn in activity and the fall off in tender prices never occurred. Both of these have taken place.

I refer to the comparison between the Irish and UK economies. Interestingly, the deficit in the UK this year will be 12% of GDP. There will be an election, probably next April or May. The following day they will begin what we began in July 2008. There is not much difference, except in the electoral cycle.

Are we worse than them?

I call Deputy O'Donnell and then we will hear from Deputy Andrews. Please put the questions and then the delegation will answer them together.

I hope they will be answered separately rather than together. I thank Mr. McCarthy and his colleagues for appearing before the committee. In its methodology the group decided to work on a Vote group basis in line with ministerial responsibility. Was that dictated by the Department of Finance? If one looks at it in terms of the private sector, many large multinational companies decide at the start of the year that they want to cut overheads by 5% or 10%, but they have to continue to deliver their product. The actual service is unaffected but savings of 10% are made in overhead and administration costs.

The worry I have is that the methodology used has resulted in the cutting of certain front-line services in order to achieve savings. Would it have been more appropriate to look at the process in terms of Departments bidding for expenditure and finding the savings themselves without affecting the delivery of services? It is a subtle but very important point and it is how it works in the private sector. We need to bring some of those ideas into the public sector.

There are two issues. We are here to represent the people. I come from the constituency of Limerick East, which includes Limerick city. Programme B, under the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, comprises €73.6 million for a programme for communities. In the deliberations in volume 2 of the report it is stated there is little evidence available on the positive outcomes of such initiatives. There is a regeneration programme in Limerick and I would like to hear the views of the delegation on that — it is not referred to in the report. It is part of the infrastructure of regeneration.

Did the delegation have an opportunity to visit some of the community schemes? The amount of money which could be saved is relatively small but would have enormous consequences for communities. People have spent ten years to bring such schemes, which started as voluntary groups, into existence. Has the delegation quantified the cost of the voluntary input? What one loses by cutting back on what are front-line services could, in effect, be enormous. I want the delegation to consider that point.

The methodology involved examining costs on a line by line basis. My worry is that if costs had been examined from a bottom up perspective, the views of the group might have been different, in terms of taking a holistic approach.

Shannon Development is a regional development organisation in my locality which pioneered regional development and is a blueprint of its type. It currently incurs no real cost to the Exchequer. It is ironic that the report recommends transferring its activities to IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland and selling its assets for benefit of the Exchequer. It is a body which is badly needed for regional development, particularly on the western seaboard. It has a role and I do not see an enormous opportunity cost in terms of keeping it in place, but I see many benefits.

Soon after the McCarthy report was launched the Tánaiste, speaking in the Dáil, stated a lot of it did not make sense. To what particular elements does Mr. McCarthy think she was referring?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

The Deputy's point on the methodology we embarked on is very good. He should bear in mind that this year there was no separate Estimates process. An annual Estimates campaign is done Vote by Vote, as it has to be, because that is how the information is presented to Dáil and is the system for publishing accounts and so on. It would have been ridiculous to have had two parallel processes taking place, with a committee like ours looking at public spending and other officials——

Mr. Colm McCarthy

——doing the same thing and coming up with a different proposal. How would one resolve such an issue? If the methods are not the same what is the point?

As happened in the late 1980s, the two processes were merged from the outset, which was the correct way to do the report. The methodology required that we respect the Vote divisions and examine the figures in terms of ministerial Votes. However, the Deputy will note that we included a number of papers which were prepared by officials from the Department of Finance on what were called "cross-cutting" issues — we tried and failed to think of a better phrase. We are very alert to the point the Deputy raised. Many reports raised issues which arise across Votes. We only scratched the surface on some of them and they are there to be pursued further.

In summary, the point I am making is that Departments are there to deliver services.

Deputy O'Donnell should allow Mr. McCarthy to answer.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

They are interesting issues and I will ask Mr. McNally to add to them in a moment. We did not visit community schemes in Limerick or anywhere else. We met a couple of days a week for six months. If the Deputy wants to say we did not have time to do both reports——

Mr. Colm McCarthy

——of course we did not. I understand where the Deputy is coming from regarding Shannon Development. There is no regional development body in Waterford, Sligo, Cork or Galway. Shannon Development is in place for historical reasons, such as the airport and so on.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

We made a recommendation to rationalise and simplify the structure of our promotional agencies, of which that was just one element. There were many other elements in what we proposed. We do not like to have a situation whereby people can get grants from all sorts of alternative bodies and go grant shopping. There is a lack of clarity and we proposed a streamlined system with far fewer enterprise promotion bodies, which was just one element of the report.

On the final point raised by the Deputy, I do not know to what the Tánaiste was referring but I am sure if the Deputy asks her she will fill him in.

Mr. Donal McNally

The Vote system has some strengths but also has a weakness, namely, that it is input-focused and at times it is difficult to work out what is being delivered. This was a difficulty for one member, Willie Slattery, who complained one does not see the granularity. There was a lot of information but not very much insight into what is happening.

Mr. Donal McNally

We have to change and move towards the system to which Deputy Bruton referred. We have to start somewhere and I see this as a very important first step in moving in that direction.

Does Mr. McNally see the delegation going down that route in terms of the budget next year?

Mr. Donal McNally

That is the intention and is what makes sense. One still has to marry the accountability functions and account for the money that is spent, but one should be able to develop the system so one knows what one is getting for the money spent.

I agree with Deputy Fahey when he said the group stimulated a lot of very interesting dialogue. In many ways it has opened the curtains and allowed light into certain sections of Irish society which had hoped for a long time would remain dark. Everyone is in agreement that certain measures will not be implemented. What measures would Mr. McCarthy see as a priority?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I mentioned in the context of the forthcoming budget, the Government can and will do things outside the set of recommendations we provided. Within the measures we recommended, there are quite a few which may not save a lot of money, such as the rationalisation of quangos and the elimination of multi-stream funding for certain kinds of organisations, but were designed to de-clutter the system of public administration, which in itself has a high value.

This may sound odd but I hope the Government considers carefully some of our suggestions which do not save significant amounts of money. We recommended them because we considered they were worth proposing for their own sake. We have been through a long period in which public spending has been growing rapidly and resources have not been a problem. In a period like that one tends to get some sloppiness, bodies may be set up and people forget to close them down and a multiplicity of agencies can chase after the same functions. In the spirit of never wasting a good crisis, this is an opportunity not just to economise on public spending but also to reform and restructure.

Can Mr. McCarthy be more specific? For example, is there any measure close to his heart?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

Yes, streamlining local delivery. One of the cross-cutting papers is entitled Local Delivery Mechanisms or something like that. In reading through it anybody would conclude that we were undisciplined in the way we allowed all these things to grow. Streamlining is good, regardless of how much money is saved.

I thank all the delegates for their presentations. Some of the details they have given have opened my eyes. I think it was Dr. McCarthy who said we were not short of compassion but of cash. It sounds great but every proposal he has made will draw howls of protest from those affected. If we cut costs, we will affect everybody in some way or other. To be compassionate, the State should try to avoid hurting those most in need.

While Dr. McCarthy has shown us many figures, I have not seen this one: if we are told we must reduce our standards, whether in pay, family income, unemployment or jobseeker's allowance or the old age pension, we will say it is outrageous and that we are going back to a terrible situation but it seems unlikely that we will be set back more than ten years. I assume we will go back to our standard of living in 1999. Can Dr. McCarthy give us some comparison between our standard of living then and now? If we take these cuts of €4 billion, will it bring us back to our standard of living in 1999? When I look at the number of cars on the road, our standard of living seems far beyond that of ten years ago. Many more are working now than ten years ago. Is it possible to put a figure on this, to tell people that if they are taking a cut in pay as an employee of the State, or in their social welfare allowance, they are going back only a certain number of years in terms of their standard of living? If people can live with this, it would help us to avoid those who are howling that it is outrageous to expect them to take a cut. They say they did not cause the problem and ask why should they take a cut.

I am elected by the NUI and Dr. McCarthy has proposed abolishing it. The NUI tells me his figures are wrong. He claims it would save €3 million but the NUI states it received only €12,000 last year. Dr. McCarthy may have answered that question when he said some of his recommendations would not save a lot of money. The NUI is 100 years old and it would be a shame to lose that institution, apart from the fact that it elects me to the Seanad.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

We also suggested the Government might consider abolishing the Seanad. My understanding is that the direct State subvention to the NUI is not the full cost but that each college pays money to it also. We checked the figure and think it stacks up.

Senator Quinn's first question is very important. The Governor of the Central Bank, Mr. Patrick Honohan, addressed it in a speech he gave at a conference organised by the ESRI and the Foundation for Fiscal Studies a couple of months ago. Many economists have been hammering at the point that we do not want to go back to 2007 levels because the construction sector was too big, the banks were over-extended and we had too much debt. The economy was probably too big because we had imported labour and borrowed external capital. We want to rebalance the economy and return to a sustainable level. That would bring us back to the levels of the early years of this decade but not 1999.

I said real GNP was off by 13.5%. It might be 15% by the time this finishes. I do not know when it will bottom out but it will not collapse from here. That means real living standards must be knocked back by that amount. We have not done that yet because the State is borrowing on our behalf and we must get on top of it. Real living standards have fallen this year. Real consumption is well down. Senator Quinn knows that the cash registers in his former business are not clicking as they used to. We are probably talking about returning to the living standards of 2004-5.

The answer probably varies according to what we are talking about. It is not a decade. Public resistance to the downward adjustment is extraordinary and not helped by the perception that the banks had a part in bringing this about and that there is a lack of repentance or contrition in that quarter. There is probably also a reluctance to accept that this has happened. If it has happened and is limited to a 13.5% fall in GNP, that knocks us back a few years to a place we thought at the time was pretty good.

I too thank the delegates for their attendance. I was delighted to hear Mr. McCarthy say we should not defer adjustments to 2017 and 2018 because we need a quick fix. Much of what is happening is due to a lack of confidence. There is money around but people are not spending it. The sooner we solve the problem, the better for everybody.

There are two ways of looking at a problem. If one is running a business, one either reduces expenditure to match income or one increases one's income to match expenditure. We forget how to create more income to maintain a standard. It is a little late to say this exercise cannot ignore the capital programme, as we need to build infrastructure to create jobs and wealth. An underground service from St. Stephens Green under the River Liffey to the top of O'Connell Street is not urgently needed at a time when we should be investing in the development of a grid to create a supply of wind and wave energy for export. We should be building interconnectors. We are wasting an opportunity by not examining how we use our capital expenditure programme to create jobs for the long term, not just the immediate future. That matter should be brought into the equation.

I often hear the argument that we should tax people in the higher income brackets, particularly those in the public sector, through a higher tax rate or cuts. We went through this but lost workers to the private sector when the economy went well. That is when the adjustment was made. We need to re-examine how we reward workers at the top level of the public sector, those who are good managers and can create a level of efficiency and achieve value for money in public expenditure. Should pension contributions be adjusted? For example, if someone aged 45 years who earns €150,000 or €200,000 in the public sector is offered €300,000 or €400,000 by a private company, he or she will go to that company without thinking about the value of his or her pension at the age of 65. We need to consider retaining people in the public sector by asking them to make a higher contribution to their pension which is taxed at 50% at the higher rate. There is a need for a new way of thinking. We saw this in local authorities where, when the building industry was booming, all the planners and senior engineers went to work in the private sector.

Should we not be looking at what we expect from local authorities instead of looking simply at their number? What do we want them to do? There was a time when they collected the bins. Now people are happy to pay private companies to do it. We should look at what we want them to do for us as distinct from their number. In that way we could decide if they should be organised on a regional, county or urban basis.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

The first point Deputy Barrett raised resonates with those who remember what happened in the 1980s. There is a potential stimulatory effect to be gained in the Government getting on top of this problem quickly and there is a potential discouragement of both consumers and businesses if there is a perception that the Government has bottled it and will dither for years.

The issue of pensions in the public and private sectors and the way they are taxed was raised. We had a few things to say about possible longer-term economies in public service pensions. Ms Mary Walsh was a member of the Commission on Taxation which looked at the taxation of pensions in more detail.

Ms Mary Walsh

The commission did not explicitly consider the public sector pension question but recommended a redirection of the resources of the tax expenditure Deputy Burton mentioned in another context from high earners to medium to low earners. We were thinking of a refocusing of private sector pension tax expenditure in a way we considered would be more equitable in society at large.

I would be more concerned about the ongoing point made that workers in the public sector have very big pensions. If a person is 45 years of age and talented and someone snaps him or her up for the private sector, the long-term benefits of staying in the public sector are rarely a consideration. I want to see how we can retain expertise in the public sector without having to say a person will be confined to a certain level of salary. It will not be possible to retain such people. There is a need for new thinking. We must say we will pay the equivalent but that the person concerned must contribute to his or her pension in order it matches that paid in the private sector.

I thank Mr. McCarthy and the group for coming before us and the good work they have done. It has highlighted many areas and provided us with information we would not have otherwise.

On where the money goes, it is stated 35% of Exchequer money goes to meet pay and pensions. What amount is specifically allocated for pensions? Are public servants funding their pensions adequately or will there still be a shortfall? Will Mr. McCarthy comment on the introduction of performance-related pay for civil servants? What calibre of people did the group meet when interviewing for the report?

Is there a concern about the Garda, in which many senior officers are retiring at once and there may not be sufficient succession plans? Has any Department been in touch on changing the content of the cuts where it has alternative methods to save money? Halving the number of Garda stations should not happen owing to the social benefits stations provide and the level of fear of crime. Other areas will probably be reconsidered by Ministers.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

Annual expenditure on pensions is €2.3 billion, or slightly more than 10%. That figure may well rise because a demographic bulge will appear in due course. We made some suggestions about how the State could find economies in the long term in public sector pension costs, including moving away from pay linking to CPI linkage. Perhaps we should move away from final salary calculation to an average of the last ten years and perhaps hybrid contributory part-funded systems. Internationally there are a lot of systems. The Government will publish a White Paper on pensions soon. There is no question that there has been a major build up of long-term liabilities for public service pensions that are completely unfunded.

I was asked if civil servants were funding their pensions. There have been estimates that the true funding cost of many public service pensions is 25% and upwards. Some of the pension deals could not be bought in the private sector. Judges and others can accumulate pension entitlements very quickly.

Rural Garda stations were mentioned. We made the recommendation that unmanned rural Garda stations should be withdrawn from service. Some of us travel beyond the M50 from time to time and have met gardaí who have told us that they must waste their time driving from their own station with the keys to open a place six or seven miles away, hang around for a couple of hours and then get back to the other station, achieving nothing in the process. The logic behind the notion that seems to have gained traction, according to the news media, that the public derive a feeling of security from the presence in their midst of an empty Garda station escapes me. The critical proposal made in the report was that the decision to open or close Garda stations should be taken from the Minister and given to the Commissioner. Something similar was done with the District Courts about ten years ago under the Courts Act. Previous to that only the Minister could decide to scrap a District Court, even if it was only meeting once a month. That function was transferred to the chief executive of the Courts Service, whereupon the number of empty and under-used District Courts fell dramatically without a peep from anyone.

The issue is the closure of half of the stations.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

We suggest the next time there is a criminal justice or courts Bill, the decision making power on the number of Garda stations should be vested in the Commissioner.

Questions were asked about succession planning in the Garda. Of course, that is important but the retirement age is also an issue that must be considered. People are living longer and are fitter at an older age than they used to be. We have inherited sets of rules about the Army and the Garda, with an entitlement to retire at certain ages, that have been overtaken by events and should be reviewed.

It is now 4 p.m. Does Mr. McCarthy have five minutes to spare?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

Just about.

When the report was published it was sent to this committee by the Minister for Finance. We decided to write to the different pillars of society. In return we received submissions from ICTU, IBEC, the community and voluntary, and environmental pillars. Arising from those submissions there are a few questions I wish to put to Mr. McCarthy. ICTU said it gives three pieces of advice to the Government on expenditure cutbacks: do not cut social welfare, do not cut education and be judicious in cutting capital expenditure. How does that square with the report?

The ICTU submission notes that the CPI fall has been mainly due to falling interest and mortgage rates. Have the witnesses any view on what is implied in that comment? The IBEC submission referred to social welfare and suggested that falling prices and an increase in social welfare rates in 2009 have meant an increase in living standards which is unaffordable and unsustainable. It goes on to say that when compared to those at work, who have had tax increases and substantial wage reductions, the reduced incentive to work could restrict the economy's ability to generate new jobs when the economic growth returns. Are there any views on that issue? Also IBEC disagrees with the special group report proposal that certain national training fund schemes have their funding ceased. I presume that has something to do with FÁS.

There is one item from the environmental pillar submission I will mention. It proposes to dezone land as a means of removing the duty for local authorities to service the land. Are there any views on that comment? The community and voluntary pillar submission has two major criticisms of the special group's methodology. It states that there was no integrated analysis and that this is a cross-cutting issue. Analysis was done on a departmental basis as opposed to a focus on the person and thus a particular individual could lose out on many fronts in terms of the cuts proposed. It goes on to say that no social impact assessment was carried out. Perhaps the witnesses would comment?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I stressed at the outset that anybody who suggests we should cut spending but not the really big Votes is implicitly saying that we should have enormous cuts in a small number of Votes. There is no getting away from that. I also mentioned that not just in Ireland but in most western European social democratic countries with a proper welfare state, at least two thirds of Government spending is on health, education and welfare. Is it being suggested that any one of those is to be sanitised and kept out of the picture, given the size of the adjustments being talked about?

We are not panicking because the Government has borrowed 2% of GDP but because it has borrowed 12% of GDP. We are talking about serious changes in the fiscal stance. It is not realistic for ICTU or anybody else to say we should leave out huge slices of what the Government spends. The arithmetic just does not work. It is right to say that the fall in the CPI exceeds the fall in the HICP because of the fall in mortgage rates. For that precise reason, we highlighted in our report that we would prefer the HICP even though it has fallen by less. Many of the economists also favoured it a few years ago when it had risen by less, at which time ICTU announced that it thought the CPI was the best price index but now it wants to have it the other way. Our recommendations were based on the harmonised index of consumer prices which does not take any credit for what may be a transitory fall in interest rates, so it is right about that this time around.

In regard to IBEC's proposal, we did make some suggestions of cutbacks in FÁS programmes. I am not sure if this is what IBEC referred to. We felt that those FÁS programmes which involved spending money on the training of those in employment should now be de-emphasised to release resources for the training of those who are out of work. That is what motivated that recommendation.

This had to do with life-long learning.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

Yes. In regard to the community and voluntary pillar and the reference to the dezoning of land and the fact that local authorities could save on servicing costs——

That was the submission from the environmental pillar.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

I do not understand that. I understand the criticism on the question of social impact analysis and that we went through things on the level of Votes and so on. However, one will find in the chapter on social welfare, where we draw attention to the reality of the possible cumulation of measures, the following: "Care will need to be taken to avoid the inadvertent accumulation of measures in individual cases". Bear in mind that what we have been doing is making proposals to the Cabinet and the various Departments that deal with these issues. It is possible that because one is taking all sorts of different measures on the expenditure side there are other measures that will be taken on the tax side that inadvertently could mean some individual person, who happened to have entitlements under a range of headings or a particular tax status, getting hit with an accumulation of measures that was not intended. It is very difficult to anticipate all of those issues in the kind of exercise we were doing. That is what has to be done when a budget is being framed and that is what budget making is about. It has to be done not just looking at the expenditure side but looking at the taxation measures as well.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. Does Senator Hanafin have a question?

I thank the Chairman. I apologise for being late but I realise this is one of the most important debates taking place in the Oireachtas today. I commend Mr. McCarthy on his comment, which will help people to realise the difficulty we are in, when he said that the Government does not lack compassion, it lacks money. It is a one-liner that will help people to understand how difficult our situation is. Before we accept that things are as bad as a few months ago, is it not too much to suggest that the banking system has collapsed, that we have been to the brink but we have pulled back? In 1986 we could devalue but the interest rates were enormous. As a nation we were paying rates of interest at 12% to 14% and as individuals up to 20%; now we pay at a much lower rate. Is it Mr. McCarthy's opinion that the world economy is improving? Are those three points correct?

Mr. Colm McCarthy

It is a little early to say that the world economy is improving. There are grounds for hoping it will bottom over the next quarter. Some parts have already begun to show a recovery. Parts of the European economy look as if they are recovering. There is a downside to that from our point of view. As soon as that begins to happen many of the central banks may start withdrawing the quantitative easing and some people think that the European Central Bank will let interest rates drift up again in the middle of next year. There is a swings and roundabouts aspect to that. The Deputy mentioned interest rates——

In the early 1980s Government borrowing was at a very high rate and as a percentage of our total tax take it was significantly higher than the 14%——

Mr. Colm McCarthy

It was but the figures the Department of Finance has produced — we used one of the charts for the present tax rates — show that we are already in a position where the percentage of our tax take that has been absorbed by debt service is rocketing upwards. That always happens. Once one starts to borrow in double digits at 10% or 12% of GDP things start to get bad very quickly.

I thank Mr. McCarthy who, I am aware, is rushing for a lecture. I thank him for attending and giving another view of his thinking in terms of the report. The document he produced concentrated the minds of many people throughout the country but as he said, it is up to the Government to make the final decision.

Mr. Colm McCarthy

Thank you very much.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 November 2009.
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