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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform debate -
Wednesday, 19 Sep 2012

Credit Union Bill 2012: Discussion with Irish League of Credit Unions

I welcome to this afternoon's meeting Mr. Jimmy Johnson, president, Mr. Kieron Brennan, chief executive officer, Ms Fiona Cullen, head of legal department, and Mr. John Knox, of the research department, from the Irish League of Credit Unions, ILCU, as well as Mr. Michael Edwards, vice-president of the World Council of Credit Unions, WOCCU. Members have received a PowerPoint presentation and the format of this afternoon's meeting will be that we will take the aforementioned presentation first. Mr. Brennan and his colleagues will take members through it briefly. Thereafter, we will move to a question-and-answer session on the substantive submission made by the league to the public consultation process run by the Department of Finance that concluded last August.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the public gallery that all mobile telephones must be switched off. The meeting is being broadcast by UPC on its 801 channel and if a mobile telephone is switched on, it almost certainly will interfere with the broadcast, even if it is in silent mode, sometimes to the extent that the broadcast is disrupted seriously and those watching cannot follow or hear the questions being asked or the answers given. Consequently, I ask everyone to disable their mobile telephones.

I wish to advise the witnesses in the normal way that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members similarly are advised and reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Brennan to lead off for the delegation.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I thank the Chairman and the ILCU appreciates the invitation to make a presentation to the joint committee today. I note what the Chairman said and we will attempt to be as brief as possible. In reality, we have a narrow range of issues we wish to put to the joint committee, which will reflect our concerns that in some respects the draft legislation under consideration does not fully or in some cases, appropriately, reflect the position as set out in the Commission on Credit Unions. If I may, I will launch straight into it.

The first issue for us pertains to democratic control within credit unions. Credit union thinking, planning and operations worldwide are based on ten fundamental credit union operating principles that provide a common foundation among all credit unions. The second operating principle - namely, democratic control - provides a number of considerations, including members enjoying equal rights, credit unions being autonomous within the framework of law and regulation and recognition that credit unions are co-operative enterprises controlled by the members. Credit union elected officers are voluntary in nature and the incumbents should not receive a salary for fulfilling the duties for which they were elected. However, credit unions may reimburse legitimate expenses incurred by elected officials. In light of this, we ask that in revisiting this draft general scheme, full consideration be given to the significant concern that provisions of the draft general scheme unduly interfere with this operating principle. Our point is that in seeking to impose, for example, term limits - restrictions on the amount of time persons can spend on credit union boards - and in the list of prohibitions which specifies the people who may not serve on boards, the democratic principle is being interfered with. Credit unions will not be allowed to elect whomsoever they wish to serve on their boards. In addition, it would be inequitable, unnecessary and potentially detrimental to some, particularly small, credit unions to impose a legal restriction on the number of years an individual can serve as a director or on the board oversight committee. Were this proposal to be implemented, the Republic of Ireland movement would be the only credit union movement worldwide where such a limitation would exist. What is the justification for this unfavourable treatment of Irish credit unions, as against all other credit union movements worldwide? Our colleague, the vice-president of the World Council of Credit Unions, is present and I will ask him to say a brief word on that point.

Perhaps the witnesses could be introduced?

Although I indicated their names at the outset, Mr. Brennan can introduce them.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I am the chief executive officer of the Irish League of Credit Unions. To my right is Mr. Jimmy Johnson, president of the Irish League of Credit Unions. Further to the right is Mr. Michael Edwards, vice-president of advocacy and governmental affairs at the World Council of Credit Unions, based in the United States. To my left is Fiona Cullen, head of the legal and secretariat department of the Irish League of Credit Unions and further to my left is Mr. John Knox from the research and development department of the Irish League of Credit Unions.

Mr. Michael Edwards

In respect of term limitations, while some credit union systems have a voluntary provision that if a credit union wishes to adopt term limits it may so do, we are not aware of any countries that have specific de jure terms such as those being proposed here. Frankly, this raises some safety and soundness concerns, since the role of the board is to control the credit union and manage risk. If one is just a man off the street, one does not know much about the operations of a financial institution and the way one learns about it is through experience or education. While some credit union directors may not have acquired that sort of background, there are very many who have and without a lot of experience and education one would not be able to understand the true financial position of the credit union or otherwise manage risk. In addition, our model law for credit unions contains an interpretive note I think may have been misconstrued by some people. It states, not in the statutory text but in the commentary, that some credit unions have decided to go with term limits and that if term limits are desired, they should be specified in the by-laws. Some people have read the final sentence of that note out of context, as stating it should be mandatory. This was not the intent when we revised it in 2011 or in 2008. Had it been, it would have been in the statutory text itself and not in the interpretive notes. If one is to have term limits, they must be written down someplace, and that would be in the by-laws, but in our view, it would not be a mandatory thing. In fact, that would be detrimental.

We will come back to this point during the questions. Mr. Brennan may proceed.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Our point simply is that were we to proceed with that proposition, Irish credit unions would be out on a limb and virtually the only movement to which such a restriction would apply. One may observe the fact that no other financial institution in the Republic of Ireland is subject to this type of restriction and we consider this to be highly objectionable, particularly in light of recent events in the wider financial services industry in the country. I again ask: what is the justification for this unfavourable treatment of credit unions relative to other financial service providers in the Republic of Ireland? We ask that in preference to providing such hard restrictions in primary legislation, credit unions be invited to amend their own registered rules to insert a provision regarding term limits for the board of directors, board oversight committee and principal officers, where such a proposal is considered to be workable in the circumstances of the particular credit union and the pool of volunteers available to it and where it is in the best interests of the members of that credit union.

Another issue for us is that of prohibitions, as outlined in head 20, subhead 10, on membership of the board or the board oversight committee of a credit union.

We have serious questions about the legality and constitutionality of these exclusions, which are seen as representing an undue interference with democracy and the constitutional rights of individuals. The extensive list of prohibitions set out on people in that head of the Bill undermines the democratic principle in credit unions and goes on to interfere with the constitutional rights of the individuals prohibited. While understanding the necessity to implement some such prohibitions, these recommendations go so far as to almost ensure a negative impact on credit unions. We ask that further and full consideration be given to matter and if in the event the decision is made to proceed, the attention of the Attorney General's office is drawn to these concerns of unconstitutionality at an early stage.

A third issue we are concerned about is the proposal to regulate credit unions in accordance with tiering by reference to asset size only. The league board position on this is that it does not support the creation or classes, types or tiers of credit unions on the basis of asset size alone and believes a model based on risk and complexity of the business model would be more appropriate. To be clear, we are saying we support the principle that there should be differentiated regulation within credit unions. One size does not fit all. Very large and very small credit unions must be treated differently, but that cannot be done on the basis of asset size alone. The complexity of the business model must be examined and regulation applied according to the risk profile. We ask that the model already successfully operated by the Financial Services Authority, FSA, in Britain and, more recently, in Northern Ireland, including in the league's 104 credit unions based there, whereby credit unions are categorised into different versions on the basis of risk and complexity of business model, be adopted in the Republic of Ireland.

Credit union members tell us they would take issue with the proposal to remove the office of treasurer. While we fully accept the definition in law of treasurer in the 1997 Credit Union Act as managing director is incorrect and inappropriate and that a number of the current statutory functions are purely operational issues that should properly be conducted by the executive, the league board does not believe the office should be abolished in its entirety. The 1997 Act sets out the role of treasurer as a member of the board responsible for governance at a strategic and policy level but also assigns a number of operational functions to that person. The commission put forward the proposition that the governance and strategic spheres should be totally separated from the operational and executive spheres. We agree with that but there is no need to abolish the office completely. It could be restricted to the operational level. Why can credit unions not have a treasurer in the same way as the local football or GAA team? We ask that the office of treasurer be retained in law for the purpose of ensuring the timely preparation of accounts and their onward presentation to the general meeting.

The last of our major issues relates to the memorandum of understanding between credit unions and the Central Bank of Ireland. At a time when credit unions are moving to a new and markedly different regulatory environment, it is critical that a memorandum of understanding be agreed by the credit unions and the Central Bank. The document should address how each party will interact with the other and how communications will be conducted, specifically when written instructions and confirmations will be required of either party. There are substantial regulatory and other changes proposed for credit unions and it is important the regulated and the regulator agree a way to communicate around those changes. The last thing we need is difficulty arising from any misunderstanding. We ask the committee to support our proposal for the putting in place of a memorandum of understanding.

There were some issues in the Commission on Credit Unions' final report that were discussed and remarked upon but were not made the subject of specific recommendations. We would like to draw the committee's attention to them.

There is an enabling provision in Part 2 in the governance section of the Bill. We have commented on tiering arrangements, whereby credit unions of different sizes and complexity would and should be regulated differently. The power to vary that specifically has not been given in the legislation. The Central Bank has not been given the power to vary its regulatory behaviour for the different types of credit union and we contend that power must be explicitly stated in the legislation.

Alternative and additional means of raising capital should be explored. Provision should be made for alternative additional means by which credit unions could raise capital. This is of importance in an era when credit union income continues to fall. Successful methods being used in other movements include issuing deferred shares, member paid-in capital and non-member paid-in capital. The opportunity should not be lost to provide in law for a credit union liquidity mechanism which would be triggered at a future date in the event such a need were to arise. The commission report correctly states the liquidity position in credit unions as being very strong. If we go back two or three years, however, that would not have been the case and there would have been extensive debate around the need for a mechanism. We are saying that should be looked at and such a mechanism should be put in place for a time when the need might arise.

We are also concerned about the omission of electronically enabled payment accounts when the report's recommendations were being transposed into legislation. Credit unions should be leaders in assisting Government to implement its financial inclusion agenda. The new Bill should encourage credit unions by permitting them to offer electronically enabled payment accounts. We are asking credit unions to step up to the plate and engage in change and improve the member service offering, but we are not enabling them to take on the technological know-how to do that. We are saying to enable that, at least, in the legislation.

Social finance is a very important issue for credit unions. It is an issue the commission report spent considerable time discussing but on which it did not make any recommendation that found its way into the legislation. The suggestion is simple and appropriate for current times: the Bill should amend the 1997 Act in order that credit unions can lend to Government-backed schemes or projects that have a social benefit. We all agree that is a desirable outcome at present.

The Bill does not reflect the position and thrust of the report where it asks credit unions to engage fully in the restructuring agenda. It asks credit unions to come together and provide enhanced services but it does not enable them to do so. The Bill should support the establishment of credit union service organisations and other means of sharing services between credit unions. If we want them to come together and behave in a better aggregated way, they must be enabled to do that in legislation.

Given all of the provisions and new requirements of credit unions and the new compliance requirements that have been put forward, a legislative provision around a regulatory impact analysis should be conducted by the Central Bank of Ireland as part of its system of regulation of credit unions. This is both desirable and necessary. Where such huge change takes place in the future, the Central Bank should be mandated in legislation to undertake a regulatory impact analysis and discover precisely what the impact of the changes will be. That should properly inform the debate around future regulatory changes.

I thank Mr. Brennan. Before calling my colleagues, I want to clarify one or two things briefly. Looking at the draft scheme and following the presentation, from what I can gather from the scheme, the term limit is three years.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

For principal officers it is a maximum of three consecutive one year terms but for ordinary members of a board or board oversight committee, there is a maximum of an aggregate of nine years in any 15 year period.

Nine years seems like a lengthy period. Is the three year limit the main concern for the credit unions?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Both, but probably more the term limit.

The delegation rhetorically asked what is the justification for this unfavourable treatment of credit unions as against other financial service providers. Has a justification been given for the credit unions having to have term limits?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I do not have the answer to that question. We would contend we have seen significant damage wrought on our economy as a result of the misbehaviour of other financial institutions but we have not seen them subject to this type of limitation.

The delegation claims the case for having term limits has not been communicated to it.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

There would have been discussions around it. Our concern is-----

What was the reason given for having these limitations?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

The reason ostensibly would have been around renewal of boards. We argue that credit unions should be allowed to place that requirement in their own by-laws.

That brings me to my next question. Mr. Brennan said the credit unions could have their own restrictions and not contain it in the legislation. This suggests to me that the credit unions have some sympathy with the proposition of term limits.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

We do not want them imposed in primary legislation. We want the credit unions to be asked to implement term limits in their own internal by-laws.

Is it desirable to have term limits?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

No, there are two issues here. One is the democratic imperative. We would contend that credit unions are community-owned, not-for-profit organisations which are volunteer-run and those volunteers and members have a right to run their organisation as they see fit.

Yes, I understand that. However, on the one hand, the delegation asked the committee to say to the Minister that he should leave the issue of term limits to the credit unions but now it is saying there should not be any term limits. Does Mr. Brennan understand my point?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Yes

So, which is it?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

The latter. There is no significant issue that has been drawn to our attention that would merit this change.

On the exclusions and prohibitions covered in head 20, it is stated one could not be an employee or voluntary assistant of any other credit union, a member of an oversight committee of any other credit union, a director of any other credit union and so forth. Which of these criteria are most problematic?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Specifically, the fact that one cannot serve on the board of credit union or be an employee and give voluntary service to another. We find the last criteria, listed as (i), particularly objectionable. It reads:

parent [sibling] or child of a director, board oversight committee member, employee or voluntary assistant of that credit union. a person who is a spouse, civil partner within the meaning of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act.

The families, siblings, parents and children of every actor in the credit union, be they on the board, an employee or a volunteer who cleans the building on a Friday night, are now prohibited from working in other credit unions. Many small credit unions operate with only voluntary members and no staff. They will now have to move to a point where the board of directors will have to undertake everything from governance to manning the counters. Now, they will have to find a new set of volunteers to do these tasks because they are prohibited.

In conjunction with that, there are several other elements that will disproportionately affect small credit unions. There is a requirement to have new committees which cannot overlap with board membership, an internal audit function and a risk management function. If one takes all of these into account, one could be on the board of a small credit union today and wonder where one is going to get the extra 20 or 30 volunteers over and above. How is one to attract these volunteers now they have a higher level of commitment and compliance expected of them? We see this as an undermining of volunteerism. At a time when financial services are letting our population down, we are undermining the one community-owned, volunteer-led organisation that is trying to help people.

Are there other prohibitions in this proposed section with which the credit unions could live?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I have no objection to the clause concerning an employee of a representative body of which the credit union is a member and where that employee's role could expose him or her to a potential conflict of interest. Neither do I have a problem with the restriction on an employee or board member of any public body or State agency involved in the regulation of credit unions. It is also good practice that the auditor would not be involved and that one's professional advisers should put some distance between themselves and serving on the board of a credit union.

How will the delegation's proposed memorandum of understanding that should be agreed between the credit unions and the Financial Regulator work? It claims this document should address how each party would interact with the other. On the face of it, that makes sense. However, playing devil's advocate, if the regulator were required to have a separate memorandum of understanding with every credit union, it would at the very least add to complexity. Regulation is based on standards and requirements. To have a separate memorandum for each would seem excessive.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

It would be a generic document. We would not wish to impose on the Central Bank a requirement to have separate documents for each credit union, as the bank has quite a lot to do.

I thank the delegation. I call on Deputy Michael McGrath.

I welcome Mr. Brennan and his colleagues from the league. We can all agree the credit union Bill provides an opportunity to put the movement on a firm and sustainable footing for the long term. We know it is a challenging time for credit unions and their members. I welcome the fact the delegation's presentation is quite narrow in its focus. I take that to mean there is broad acceptance and agreement with the thrust of the general scheme of the Bill.

Is the delegation satisfied that the content of the Bill is a fair reflection of the Commission on Credit Union's recommendations? Much of the objections to specific issues centre on interference with the autonomy in the operation of credit unions. On the point of the term limit, which the Chairman teased out, was that examined by the commission? Did it make a particular recommendation in this regard? I understand the league's concerns about the loss of experience and the proposed term limits.

If people are performing their duties to the required standard, it seems unfair that one would statutorily require them to vacate their position. There is an issue in that regard that needs to be re-examined.

Mr. Brennan also went through the prohibitions in terms of board membership. Does he have any handle on how many existing board members of credit unions would potentially be affected by the exclusions set out in the draft scheme of the Bill? Does he have any sense of the percentage of existing board members who would be disqualified from serving, for example, if the Bill, as drafted, was enacted?

On the tiering of credit unions by asset size alone, Mr. Brennan makes a fair point about looking at alternative models and taking account of the complexity and diversity of credit unions. He referred to the model used in the United Kingdom. Is that a model that we can examine, replicate and amend to meet the circumstances in Ireland? Is he satisfied that it would constitute a better approach?

Some of the additional suggestions Mr. Brennan made towards the end of his presentation appear eminently sensible on the surface. For example, I wonder why items such as electronically-enabled payments and shared services are not taken into account. At this stage, we are looking at the broad thrust of the Bill. Obviously, on Second Stage, we will look at the principles and on Committee Stage, the detailed amendments. Any amendment Mr. Brennan wishes to have put into the mix at that stage can be considered if Members wish to bring them forward. Are there particular reasons some of the more obvious ones have not been included in the Bill which presents a one-off opportunity to place the movement on a proper footing for the future?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

The Irish League of Credit Unions participated fully in the commission process which, like the current legislative process, was subject to a timetable set elsewhere. There was a time imperative which, to some extent, influenced the outcome in one shape or other.

Deputy Michael McGrath is correct in stating our concerns are limited to what one might call two narrow ranges of issues. One has to do with governance issues and the other with what we would see as omissions of matters which in some cases appear in the report but are not necessarily reflected in the legislation. We are focused, on the one hand, on inappropriate reflection of the commission's report and, on the other, omissions. We have come here today to state that credit unions are stepping up to the plate, that there is a significant change and restructuring agenda and that we need to make it work, but credit unions need to be appropriately equipped and enabled to do this. For example, term limits and prohibitions would run contrary to a number of objectives set out in the commission's report. In a number of instances the commission has made a number of points along the lines, for example, that the volunteer principle should be protected and promoted, but when one looks at a number of the issues in detail, they are undermined to some extent. Most of the individual items could be argued for to make sense on their own, but when one looks at them in the aggregate, particularly for the smaller credit unions, they undermine the voluntary ethos of credit unions. In terms of the omissions, I do not wish in any way to cast aspersions on the good work done by the commission and the contents of its report, but there was considerable pressure to operate within a given timeframe.

On tiering, those of us involved in the league have considerable experience of the arrangements in the United Kingdom. We have responsibility for representing the majority of credit unions in Northern Ireland which earlier this year were made subject to the same regime which has been operated in Britain for quite a few years. There is a two-tier arrangement in Britain where there are version 1 and version 2 credit unions. The way that it operates is that a credit union makes a decision on the type of services and their level of sophistication and the level of risk it wishes to carry. For example, it could state it wants to be a simple credit union providing only for savings and loans and, therefore, in the lower tier of regulation, or it could wish to be a more sophisticated one providing the complete range of personal financial services for its members, in which case it will need to be in the higher level of regulation. We say do it on that basis, but that relationship between risk, sophistication of offering, products and regulation is missed in this proposal which is simply based on asset size alone. One could, for example, have some large credit unions offering limited services and, likewise, some modest ones offering quite complex products. There needs to be a reconfiguration of the tiering arrangements to reflect risk and product offerings in credit unions.

How would the prohibitions on serving at board level affect the movement?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

This is one of the issues we have had all along, throughout the commission process and subsequent to it. We are still aghast at the list of prohibitions outlined. I go back to the example cited of a small credit union, be it in a rural or urban context. One must ask, when looking at subhead (10) of head 20, "Who is allowed to serve on the board of a credit union when one takes everyone else out of the list?"

We were also somewhat surprised to note that the list had been added to between publication of the report and publication of the draft Bill. Siblings had been thrown in; they had been missing from the list. I am really surprised and amazed that a considerable effort went into drafting this extensive list of exclusions when we should have putting an effort into promoting volunteeism and celebrating the fact that there were many who were willing to give of their time to ensure their neighbours and communities could avail of financial services.

I welcome Mr. Brennan. It is good to receive this report. He made a number of points in his presentation about the restriction on the length of time directors could serve and the prohibition of persons serving on boards. Others have the view that the volunteer role in credit unions will be enhanced rather than diminished by the Bill.

On the prohibition of persons, what did Mr. Brennan mean by "smaller credit unions"? I ask him to clarify this. I accept that it can be difficult to get persons to serve on boards, but sometimes it can be good for an organisation to have new members on boards rather than have some members staying on indefinitely.

There were 11 members of the Commission on Credit Unions. I suggest the committee invite them to give us an opinion on some of the views we have heard today. Perhaps we might discuss that issue later. It is important that those who made up the Commission on Credit Union are given the opportunity to speak about some of the decisions they reached and how they came to make them.

We must remember credit unions have a strong social dimension. They provide finance for the community and are very much rooted in the communities they service. We must take cognisance of this and the special ethos of credit unions and the special role they play in the communities they serve.

Would Mr. Brennan like to respond?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

We agree that renewal is important at credit union board level. This is why we suggest that credit unions be asked to make provision specifically for this in their own by-laws. In terms of the prohibitions set out on page 65 of the Bill, I find those in subhead 10 to be objectionable for all credit unions but they will have a disproportionate impact on smaller credit unions. The list of people set out under paragraph (i) will simply mean that smaller credit unions will have a more difficult time finding appropriate volunteers. I am not saying that larger credit unions will not face the same problem. In terms of what we mean by "smaller credit unions" the tiering arrangements outlined in the commission report and the Bill refer to a lower category of €10 million or less, although we argue that smaller credit unions could have €25 million or less. In regard to the other members of the commission, several of them will be attending this committee tomorrow.

Mr. Jimmy Johnson

In terms of prohibitions, smaller credit unions may not have many full-time employees and they rely heavily on volunteers to act as tellers on a Friday evening or a Saturday morning as well as offer other assistance to the credit union. Those individuals would also be on the board. Smaller credit unions which do not have a full complement of employees have to rely on their directors to offer voluntary assistance in operational roles within the credit union. The prohibition on voluntary assistants being members of boards could have a dramatic impact on smaller credit unions.

I welcome Mr. Brennan's presentation and the contributions from the other witnesses. Sinn Féin supports the strengthening of credit union regulation but we need to see strong regulation that suits both members and the credit unions themselves. An understanding of the distinctive character of credit unions and the unique role that its members have played needs to be at the core of our deliberations. This Bill misses that understanding. If we ignored the democratic nature of the credit union movement across the island of Ireland, that directors are elected at AGMs and that small credit unions completely rely on volunteers, we would agree with the provisions of the Bill. We might support term limits if we were dealing with the directors of the big banks which take large sums of money from our pockets because we own them, but these are volunteers. That is what is missing from the Bill.

I ask the witnesses to elaborate on term limits and the impact they would have on credit unions, particularly in respect of their democratic nature. There is an impression that directors could sit in a small credit union for the rest of their lives because it is a nice number but is that the real experience for directors and what do AGMs mean? Section 10 is insulting to people who have offered up their time and efforts and who in many instances have established the credit union movement in their communities. It may have been a couple of families who believed in social solidarity and a not-for-profit movement rather than allow bankers and major financial institutions to reap the benefit of people's hard earned cash. However, it is next to impossible to sustain the level of competence required under the Bill. Sections 12 and 13 set out the competences that a director is required to have. The Bill states that one must have competences across the board, including personal qualities, skills, experience, expertise, competence, capabilities, professionalism and probity, along with meeting certain qualifications, backgrounds and legal requirements. However, God forbid, if a director's son painted the local credit union because he or she would have to resign. If a director's wife worked voluntarily as a teller, he would have to resign. If his mother or father was involved on a voluntary basis he would also have to resign. This does not make sense. I ask the witnesses to elaborate on the real impact that will have on the movement.

The memorandum of understanding was mentioned earlier. What do the witnesses envisage the memorandum containing and how could it ensure a good relationship between credit unions and the regulator in the Central Bank?

I have spoken to representatives of local credit unions and I am sure other Members are also being lobbied by credit unions across the State. Many of them are concerned about the new regulations and the associated costs and levies. The witnesses indicated that they would like the Central Bank to carry out a regulatory impact assessment, which is sensible. What would that look like and why is it important, particularly for smaller rural credit unions?

One the key aspects the Commission on Credit Unions addressed was the future development of the sector. This is missing from the Bill, however. While it is important to develop strong regulation that protects members, credit unions and the public, it is also important that we consider the vision for the credit union movement into the future. The witnesses referred to proposals such as electronic transfers and shared services but where do they think credit unions should go and what should we have in this legislation to allow the movement to flourish and mature in a responsible way?

In regard to the risk assessment, it was suggested that we consider the model used in the North, where there are 104 credit union branches. I agree with that idea. Anybody who investigated the banking collapse in Ireland and the risky lending that went on in Anglo Irish Bank will accept the need to consider risks instead of assets. It does not make sense to allow a risky credit union to lend risky products to consumers when a non-risky credit union with the same asset base is regulated in the same way. Why was the work of the FSA in the North and Britain not investigated? Why has the Bill gone down the road of looking at assets?

My final question is not related to the Bill but I am hearing complaints about the lending restrictions that the regulator has placed on a number of credit unions. I have been contacted by individuals who are frustrated because they cannot get money from credit unions solely because of these restrictions. I understand these restrictions could also jeopardise a number of credit unions in the medium term if they remain in place. I ask the witnesses to elaborate on what they think should be done in this regard.

The credit union movement is testimony to what is good in this country and it is a pity that the remainder of our financial institutions did not behave as responsibly. Even the suggestion of amending the previous Act to allow investments in social solidarity projects is commendable and worthy of our consideration.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I will ask my colleague, Ms Fiona Cullen, to address most of Deputy Doherty's questions.

Ms Fiona Cullen

I thank Deputy Doherty for his questions. There is an argument for the term limits. There are dangers relating to entrenched leadership, but there needs to be a level of respect for the fact that some people have given decades of service to the credit union movement. It would be very naïve of any of us to think that will go away all of a sudden because we write something into statute or that that will be accepted by people who might have given 30 years of service to their credit union.

We do not accept the premise that there is no renewal in the boards of credit unions. At the moment credit union directors are elected at the AGM by their fellow members to carry out specific tasks under the Credit Union Act. That said, their term of office cannot exceed three years and just like the members present, they need to produce the goods to get back into a position to get elected again. There are people who have been returned again and again. We must ask ourselves why that is. Let us presume that in the majority of cases it is because people do a very good job. It is very difficult to quantify the impact. We have engaged in extensive consultation with the members of the league since the publication of the commission report. At the various engagements we have had, including at our AGM and at roadshows around the country, we canvassed their views a number of times and we continually hear that this is entirely the wrong thing to do.

The CEO and Mr. Edwards have spoken about the world experience. Every credit union has a set of rules registered under the Credit Union Act. We have a process whereby amendments to those rules come through the league AGM. There is nothing wrong with a credit union in its own circumstances with a sufficient pool of volunteers open to it, deciding that it is the right thing for that credit union and we would support that all the way. There is a difficulty with a statutory obligation to walk away after nine years. There are questions as to whether somebody would serve for nine years, go away for six and come back. That would be a loss to the credit union and the community. We feel it would be a much better to allow them to write it into the registered rules if it is beneficial for that particular credit union and if a board of directors, who are best placed to make such a decision, so decide.

Mr. Brennan and I participated in the commission and are very respectful work that was done. We know better than anyone how hard everybody worked. However, sitting in an office in the Department of Finance and coming up with wonderful plans may cause long-term damage to the credit union movement because at a particular time with particular external pressures there was a school of thought that it was the right thing to do.

Our thinking on the memorandum of understanding is as follows. There will always be tension between the regulator and the regulated - that is the way of the world. We are trying to do whatever we can to mitigate that. As far as we can see one of the things that would assist in that regard is if there was an agreement - obviously it does not create any legal obligation. However, it would provide clarity on the roles of each. There is an issue with the registry or the Central Bank needing written confirmations from the credit union as whether it has done something and vice versa. If a credit union is being directed to do something by the Central Bank we would want to see clarity around the particular issues that should be dealt with by written direction. For example, if a credit union is instructed not to hold its AGM for a period, there should be a formal written instruction from the regulator to the chairman of the board of the credit union. That would help with the difficulties that will always be there.

I ask Ms Cullen to confirm that she is not seeking to have the memorandum to be spelled out in the legislation. It is just that there is a requirement to have a memorandum of understanding between all parties.

Ms Fiona Cullen

Exactly. It was the same with the RIAs. Having discussed it at length the commission came to the view that to write a statutory obligation into the legislation for the Central Bank to have to conduct an RIA in every circumstance would not be correct for issues that took up a lot of time at the commission table. So it was felt that legislation was not appropriate for that. We are not suggesting that an MOU would feature in the legislation. As a matter of good practice and as a sensible way forward when moving to something entirely different, we feel it is appropriate to set out clearly what is expected of each party. We feel it would be of benefit in the long term.

On the risk assessment issue, I will give some more information about the system in the UK. It has operated a system of version 1 and version 2 credit unions for ten years. Credit unions are taken to be version 1 credit unions, which is the smaller of the scale. A credit union can apply to become a version 2 credit union and if successful it can enter into more activities and services than a version 1 institution can. For example, in the area of investments version 1 credit unions may only invest for a term of 12 months, whereas version 2 credit unions can invest for five years. In the area of lending, version 1 credit unions may only lend £15,000 more than shareholding where version 2 institutions can lend the greater of £15,000 or 1.5% of the total shares of the credit union which could be a significant figure depending on the level of shareholding. On duration of loans, version 1 credit unions may lend for five years secured and ten years unsecured, whereas version 2 credit unions may lend for ten years secured and 25 years unsecured. On credit unions borrowing for their own purposes, a version 1 credit union may borrow 20% of its overall shares whereas a version 2 credit union may borrow up to 50% of its shares.

The biggest change between the two and probably the biggest regulatory consideration in deciding whether to admit a credit union to version 2 is the reserve requirement. The capital to asset ratio requirement for a version 1 credit union is 3% - the reserve requirement for credit unions in the Republic of Ireland at the moment is 10%, but that is a different conversation. A UK credit union moving from version 1 to version 2 moves from a 3% requirement to an 8% requirement. Fundamental to the FSA's decision whether to allow a credit union into version 2 thereby allowing it to offer enhanced services is the requirement to see a detailed plan as to how the credit union will hit the 8% minimum requirement and how it will maintain it. As part of the application process the FSA needs to see evidence of documented systems of control, organisational charts, details of experience, qualifications of key people within the credit union, a detailed business plan, full and up-to-date policies and procedures, and copies of liquidity management policy, lending policy and financial risk management policy.

So there is a process of assessment and this may be where we differ. If there is to be a tiered system of credit union regulation set by hard and fast asset-size boundaries, a credit union would be allotted into one of those tiers. For example an excellent €6 million credit union that is really restricted in what it can do would not get to be a tier 2 - the term used in the commission report - credit union without either substantially increasing its asset size of amalgamating with the credit union down the road. That is the problem we are experiencing. We are talking about a voluntary process of restructuring whereas in reality if a credit union wants to do anything other than the absolute basics, it is not voluntary at all.

The key thing is that the credit union should think long and hard about whether it wants to enhance the service it provides to members and it has the choice to make the application to the FSA and illustrate to it that it will be able to cope with being a version 2 credit union.

At the outset I wish to declare that I have been a member of the credit union movement since my first communion - that was where I was told to invest my money. It is high time the Central Bank and the regulator were reminded that no credit union-----

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy's flow. However, we have a restricted area around the table. It is not a rule I made, but it should be observed.

It is high time the Central Bank and the regulator were reminded that no credit union anywhere in the country provided money for the building of an apartment block in Ballsbridge or the purchase of contracts for any of the financial institutions which brought the country to the state it is in or bought hotel or holiday resorts in Bulgaria. A credit union is a community-based institution and the foundation block is volunteerism. I listened to Ms Cullen and Mr. Brennan talk about the British model. I am member of the economic forum of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which examined the credit union movement in the UK and Ireland. They seek to emulate what we have here. They see it as the best example of what the credit union movement should be. To that end, one must put people in the frame of mind that credit unions fill a gap in society that traditional financial institutions have not wanted to fill because it was not profit-making and was based on volunteerism. Something should resonate with people. Moneylenders are the last resort for most people and credit unions often fill the gap in a prudential, meaningful and community-based manner by lending people money when they need it. They have an established relationship with those people. Despite the fact that one is dealing with people whose financial circumstances are not phenomenal, the credit union movement in Ireland is in very good shape in comparison with other financial institutions. Let us give that message loud and clear to the Central Bank and tell it that what it is looking for is over-the-top. When one is looking at liquidity and risk management, one is getting it wrong. The weighting attached to car loans and sending people to universities is not the same as the contracts for financing blocks of apartments and hotel resorts in Bulgaria. The regulator needs to look at the socioeconomic and community side of this. The legacy of the boyos in AIB and the rest is not what the credit union movement is involved in.

Coincidentally, the issue of AIB branch closures throughout the country was raised in Topical Issues in Dáil Éireann. There have been over 50 closures. I come from a rural constituency and there will be an enormous area over north Kerry and west Limerick that will be without banking services. There are credit unions in there and if the circumstances are such that if one restricts who can be involved in the running of credit unions, one will give away the lifeblood of that which has kept it there and brought it forward. I get this in droves and I would like to help the credit union movement as much as possible. Does the delegation have a model in respect of lending, the risk element and the weighting of money we can give to the Central Bank in order to make that stack up because I think this has become over-the-top? As parliamentarians, we need to get behind and recognise the credit union movement because of all that is good in it and what it has achieved to date.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Deputy Spring raised a number of issues, some of them connected to what Deputy Pearse Doherty said about the vision for the future and I will put them to our president. I will address the last point made by Deputy Spring, which concerned risk associated with credit union funds. A considerable time ago prior to the introduction of the recent capital requirements, which are very blunt instruments as everyone must have 9% at a certain point and 10% at a certain time, the Irish League of Credit Unions developed through great effort, time and expense a risk-based capital policy based upon the Basel rules which would allow for credit unions and their operations and capital content to be assessed on a risk-based basis. We supplied that to the Central Bank and have not yet had a positive response although we remain hopeful. I will pass the delegation over to our president who will deal with the larger issue raised by Deputies Spring and Pearse Doherty.

Is Deputy Spring happy with that?

I would like to see the Basel recommendations recognise that there is a community dimension as well the balance sheet focus that the AIBs of the world have had up to now. It is not solely about the bottom line.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

We appreciate that concern.

Mr. Jimmy Johnson

Deputy Spring's points are very well made and I concur with them. They really reinforce the need for a memorandum of understanding between the representative organisations - credit unions and the Central Bank. We believe that is critical going forward. Deputy Spring made a point about volunteerism, which is the distinction between credit unions and other financial institutions or people providing financial services. Volunteerism is the edge we have. Credit unions started off with just volunteers and no resources and, as Deputy Spring noted, have become very successful and admired throughout the world and Ireland for what they have done and what they continue to do. Volunteerism is still the edge. It comes back to the point made by Deputy Pearse Doherty. Our concern about the prohibitions in the legislation is that anything that works against volunteerism will work against the credit union movement developing in the future. At a time when the country needs to promote active citizenship and volunteerism, legislation should actively promote volunteerism. It is not to take from the points Deputy Humphreys made about the need to regenerate boards to bring on new people and get new ideas. That is a separate principle but allied to the principle of volunteerism and we believe the legislation should promote volunteerism and best practice in terms of governance. It is critical for the credit union movement that we have volunteerism going forward.

In terms of the vision, Mr. Brennan laid out in the last few points what we see as missing from the draft legislation. It relates to key issues and the vision we have for the credit union movement, a vision members of the Irish League of Credit Unions have bought into. We need the huge change menu within the draft legislation and we buy into it but we must do so in a way that gets us to some place where we can provide better services to our members.

Our mission is to ensure the change process in which we are actively engaged and working on will facilitate the delivery of a full range of personal financial services to our members in the near future. We hope to see the creation of the required flexibility for various forms of co-operation among credit unions; that we will have the enablement and encouragement of various forms of co-operation; the preservation of the movement's social, volunteer and community ethos; the preservation of local identity and autonomy while enabling credit unions to be a part of greater movement co-operative alliances; and the facilitation of the creation of movement-owned infrastructure in information technology in payments and other appropriate areas which are required to achieve the above. That is what we want the legislation to enable for the credit union movement, not just the legislative and regulatory requirements that are seen as necessary and the improvements in governance, which we accept, as well as those in training and education.

In respect of volunteerism, there will be a big step up in terms of the skills required to be on boards of credit unions in the future. We want to be able to attract ordinary, normal people who are members of credit unions to be volunteers in and directors of their credit unions. We want to be able to give them the training, education and skills. They will bring their own life skills, which is critical going forward. If there are prohibitions on volunteers and time limits, there will be massive investments in people that will not come to the desired fruition. We need to see volunteerism promoted and people encouraged to participate and be involved in their own community so that we have a credit union movement that is of and for the people.

In response to Mr. Johnson, we have a very comprehensive Oireachtas Library & Research Service document on this issue. One of the useful pieces of information is that 3.2 million people are members of credit unions. I take it that figure is for the island as a whole but, obviously, the large majority would be in this State. When Mr. Johnson heard that the President was elected with 1 million votes last year, was he tempted to throw his name in the ring? I would say he would be a certainty. Has the league made any effort to inform and advise the wider membership about these crucial issues under discussion today? What role is there for the involvement of those members in respect of volunteerism, the encouragement of ordinary people to become involved, their ability to become involved and the pressure they can bring to bear on this issue, assuming pressure is needed?

I hope, following Deputy Spring's intervention, that he will deliver the majority and there will be no problem in the Chamber.

Mr. Brennan directed much of his attention, quite rightly, to the issues which are problematic and which would be to the detriment of the credit union movement. Some of us have taken these very seriously. Will Mr. Brennan outline three or four changes, if there are any, in the huge document we have which he thinks would be positive or would assist and improve the operations of the credit union? This might be useful.

By their nature credit unions are for the ordinary people - low and middle income workers and pensioners. One will not have tax exiles queueing outside the door and people do not borrow for extravagant purchases. I know this is slightly off the legislation, but in view of the report made some time ago on the fact that a huge cohort of people have less than €100 a month in disposable income, what problems are being experienced at present in the running of credit unions with regard to repayments? Will Mr. Brennan give a general answer? How does this reflect measures that could be put in the legislation?

I take it Mr. Edwards is based in the United States even though he is a world advocacy representative. Coming from the home of possibly one of the most aggressive forms of capitalism to which the credit union movement tries to be an antidote, apart from the intervention he made earlier on the legislation and the fact we are legislating anew, are there any points he could usefully contribute to our debate?

Mr. Jimmy Johnson

We have more than 3 million members but we are not politically involved in any sense. With regard to consultation with our members, the commission's report was published in the middle of April after which 750 delegates represented 376 credit unions at our AGM and we consulted them. After this we had roadshows and consulted with another 761 delegates from 283 credit unions so we have received feedback. The points we are raising today come directly from the discussions with our member credit unions throughout the country. We also get feedback at chapter meetings and I get feedback as a director of the Irish League of Credit Unions. These are points which are raised again and again.

We participated fully, openly and very effectively with the commission and we made our points. We have a duty to consult with and represent the views of our member credit unions, which is what we have done.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

We undertook extensive consultation, and continue to do so, with our membership and the members of credit unions have been informed through their credit unions. Last night I attended a meeting in Wicklow at which 30 or 40 credit unions and their members were present and these very issues were raised. Many were small credit unions and they told me in no uncertain terms what they thought about a narrow range of issues they feel need to be examined. I re-emphasise this involves a narrow range of issues.

With regard to how we can improve, we must make the point again that given the economic condition of the country it was to be expected the commission would focus more on prudential soundness, safety and regulatory concerns, and one could say it did so in spades. However, Deputies Higgins and Doherty raised the point that we not only need to do this and ensure regulatory soundness and good governance, but we must also ensure the credit union movement is equipped properly for the role it will play in future. The commission report made the point that the credit union movement is basically sound and can play an enhanced role. It goes so far as to state that if it does it properly the credit union movement could be a third pillar of the financial system.

How do we reshape the movement and what important things can we do or add to the equation? We mentioned a number of items already, including enabling electronic funds transfers. The legislation needs to enable this because it is strategically important. Shared services are also important. Credit unions need to be empowered to come together and share services for their members so that one can walk into a credit union in Cork and withdraw funds from a credit union in Dublin, and so that the movement behaves like the aggregate of what it is, namely, a large social movement. These are important aspects missing from the legislation which need to be brought in.

With regard to difficulties, I will return to the point that credit unions have 3.2 million members and our membership reflects the national demographic. Our social breakdown is exactly as it is in the national demographic and we have the same proportion of A1s. If something happens to the population at large economically it automatically reflects onto credit unions. I am happy and proud to state credit unions have raised their game and done everything in their power to respond to the needs of their members while at the same time protecting the financial base of their organisation, which is owned by their members. They have increased provisions and reserves so they are in a position to deal with members who have issues.

For the 50 years of their existence credit unions have ensured they have been in a position to deal with people who through no fault of their own are in economic difficulties, and they have given priority to this. They were born at a time when ordinary people did not have access to financial institutions or financial services, and when, if they needed funds, they were preyed upon by moneylenders. Unfortunately we are returning to this, so we must ensure the movement is strengthened and is in a position to continue its work.

Mr. Michael Edwards

With regard to Deputy Higgins's question on the United States, I am based in Washington DC and prior to joining the World Council of Credit Unions I worked for the Credit Union National Association in the United States, so I am well familiar with the US system. Two of the features of the US system which have led it to have 94 million members and 7,200 institutions are shared branching and credit union service organisations. Almost all credit unions in the United States belong to a shared branching network whereby one can go into any credit union and make a transaction for up to $800. Credit unions throughout the country share ATMs. Credit unions can co-operate with each other and achieve economies of scale which otherwise would not be possible without major amalgamations of the institutions. These can help maintain the local character of credit unions and local autonomy while also allowing a wider range of services than would otherwise be available.

With regards to term limits in the United States, for federally chartered credit unions, which make up 60% of the industry, term limits are not allowed. They are considered to be anti-democratic. For the other 40%, which are state chartered, it varies according to state law. It can be voluntary. However, usually this occurs only if there is a geriatric board which needs to engage in succession planning and needs new blood because everyone is above retirement age.

I welcome the delegates. The credit unions' work has never been as vital as it is today. In my part of the world on the north side of Cork city the majority of people would not have a functional banking system were it not for the credit unions. The Bill is intended to protect credit unions and their members via a proper regulatory framework. The intention is to protect their voluntary status and local knowledge. The banking sector remains in such a poor state because it does not allow local bank managers to work with people on the ground. We must take the opportunity to remind people that removing power from local bank managers and forcing unnecessary lending were the reasons for the banking crisis. Local bank managers are not being allowed to unpick some of the problems.

I have two questions on the commission which met for nine months. According to its final report, the commission's findings, on which this legislation is based, were unanimous. Many of the points made by the delegates were reasonable, even though they lacked specific details. They are opposed to some prohibitions and in favour of others, yet they did not go through the prohibitions in the PowerPoint presentation. Will they provide further details?

The reports of the other two bodies that were part of the nine month review - the Credit Union Managers Association, CUMA, and the Credit Union Development Association, CUDA, which will present tomorrow - requested urgent legislation along the lines of that being proposed. Why is there a variance between the three bodies? Have the delegates changed their position on the issues in question from the unanimous position outlined in the report which was published on 18 April? Why does the CUMA and the CUDA not share these concerns? The delegates cannot speak for them, but there seems to have been a change in recent months.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

There has been no change. As the Deputy rightly stated, I cannot speak for the other organisations, but I am not sure that they will say they are 100% happy with the legislation. They are happy with the report because that is what they signed off on. I am at pains to point out that we do not object to the report per se; rather, we object to how its intention in respect of a narrow range of issues is not reflected properly and is not reflected at all in terms of another range. The final two pages of our presentation-----

In what way is it not reflected?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

The term limits, prohibitions and so on. The legislation's provisions undermine the stated intention of the report. The second category of issues comprises our final seven points. These items were elaborated on in detail in the report, yet they have not been reflected in the legislation. That is a fact. We support the report and want to ensure its full implementation, minus omissions, in the legislation.

Was the term limits issue canvassed on in the course of the commission's deliberations?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

There was an extensive and robust debate on it.

What was the recommendation?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

A person could serve on the board for an aggregate period of nine years in any 15 year period.

Where was that recommendation included?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

In the document.

Was the issue of prohibitions canvassed on?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

It also was the subject of an extensive and robust debate. An additional prohibition was inserted prior to the final report being presented and appears in the legislation.

That is the last prohibition.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Yes, the sibling issue.

Were the other prohibitions the subject of recommendations in the commission's report?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Yes. They were the subject of an extensive debate. I have outlined a number with which we have no difficulty and others with which we do. Other issues were detailed extensively in the report but have not been reflected in the legislation.

I understand that.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Let us have what the report actually states reflected in the legislation.

It is fair to say the matter flips both ways. Some elements of the legislation were not contained in the report. However, significant recommendations made in the report which it is purported was unanimous have been included.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

We are focusing on a narrow range of subjects. The commission's report and the legislation are introducing a significant number of changes to the credit union movement. This is a seismic shift. We are merely pointing to two narrow ranges of recommendations, the first of which is not properly reflected in the legislation, while the second has been omitted.

For the purposes of clarity, we will try to produce a list of issues. The delegates will understand that there is a time limit and that the Bill must be published soon. We will do our best and communicate to the Minister the published submissions, as well as a copy of the transcript of these hearings. We only have a few days in which to do this work. There is no problem - I merely want us to be clear, not to argue. The delegates have raised queries and objections about the time limits and extensive prohibitions in the draft scheme. Equally, they have a problem with the commission report's recommendations in that regard. Deputy Dara Murphy is pressing Mr. Brennan on this point. I do not mind what answer is given just as long as I know. I am not saying this to raise all of the issues again. Will we tell the Minister that the delegates have a difficulty with these issues in the legislation? My problem is that-----

Mr. Kieron Brennan

The question is-----

The delegates claim the legislation does not reflect the report when the contrary seems to be the truth. This is what the commission recommended. That is my point.

Ms Fiona Cullen

I might respond on the issue of serving for nine years out of 15. As Mr. Brennan stated, there was extensive and sometimes heated debate at the commission table on this subject. The World Council of Credit Unions, WOCCU, for which Mr. Edwards works, is the global authority on credit unions. I do not want to go too far into the discussion, as there are confidentiality obligations concerning what occurred within the commission. However, when the issue was brought to the table, we indicated from the start that we had serious concerns and our belief our member credit unions would also have serious concerns. Some of the debate then focused on the model laws and regulations proposed by the WOCCU. The world authority recommended term limits as a good measure. Mr. Edwards flew from Washington to join us today to set the record straight, as he has done. The WOCCU's position is not as it was understood to be during the commission process. On this basis, we want to revisit the matter.

Is Deputy Dara Murphy okay with these answers?

Yes. The issue is a narrow one, but the point of committees is to get into the nitty-gritty. We are focusing on the belief the legislation has been formulated on the basis of the commission's work and that one runs into the other.

That is disputed by the witnesses in respect of the area about which we are speaking now. That point was made earlier. It will be interesting to hear what the other bodies who were part of this process, in which we were not involved, have to say.

Mr. Jimmy Johnson

Our committee delegates worked along with the other individuals on the process, which culminated in the commission's report. Today, we are putting forward the views of our member credit unions on the report as published. These views do not take from the recommendations of the commission but are the concerns as expressed by our member credit unions on these particular issues.

That is understood and appreciated.

I thank the witnesses for attending. Are the witnesses seeking the deletion of paragraph 10(i) on page 65? Is it as simple as that?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Yes.

That is what we have been discussing in general terms. Had the witnesses stated that it would have cleared things up. Are the witnesses also proposing that the reference to the three years and aggregative nine years be amended?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Yes.

Why then did the witnesses not say so? Had they done so that would have cleared up all sorts of issues such as why it was or was not discussed and whether there was consensus. What the witnesses are seeking is the deletion of paragraph 10(i) on page 65 and the amendment of the reference to nine years cumulative experience. That clears up that issue.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. Am I correct that the Irish League of Credit Unions represents 3 million members? Does that mean 3 million people of our 4.5 million population are members of the credit union movement?

The figure relates to the whole island.

That is extraordinary.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

It is the highest penetration of credit unions worldwide.

So 3 million of the 6 million people living on this island are members of the credit union?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

They have credit union accounts.

So, one person could, say, have four accounts?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

There could be double accounts in some cases. For example, a person could be a member of an industrial credit union and local credit union.

As such, the 3 million figure may not relate to 3 million people.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Yes. A person could be a member of the Garda credit union and live in north Kerry and be a member of Tralee credit union.

Congratulations to everybody involved in building up such a base for a democratic and voluntary movement. Credit unions meet many of the financial needs of individuals and households at a micro and medium micro level.

The legislation arises out of the commission's work on the difficulties that have emerged as a result of a general financial meltdown, mainly bank driven. The reality is that there are financial strains on some credit unions around the country. Am I correct, that many credit unions require financial support as a result of the overspill of general financial difficulties and meltdown? We are trying to create a framework that is well balanced in terms of addressing the type of risks and responsibilities of a voluntary and democratic-based movement in order to allow it continue into the future. The regulation, in the form and framework presented, seeks to address those real needs going forward.

The tiering system for categorising the type of operations in the credit union movement is a good idea. There can be large volumes of simple transactions which result in big balance sheet amounts or complicated financial transactions in smaller numbers in total aggregate smaller amounts. The risks for the second type in terms of dealings in financial products are more difficult to manage and usually have magnified consequences if they go wrong. As such, they require tighter controls and disciplines. I agree that if one can come up with a framework to match the realities of the two groupings of services provided that should be adopted.

I would like now to put to the witnesses some nuts and bolts-type questions which I was asked by constituents to raise with them. Given some credit unions are under greater strain than others does the Irish League of Credit Unions expect many mergers to take place? In regard to losses incurred prior to rescue of a credit union, who pays for those losses? Will it be the rescuer's members, rescued members or taxpayers? The constituent who asked that question anticipates that rescuer's members will pay for them. What will happen to the savings protection scheme fund under this legislation? What exposure does the savings protection scheme have given the number of letters of comfort that have issued? Given regulatory control and ability to rescue credit unions in difficulty no longer rests with the league what future role is envisaged for the ILCU? Will the savings protection schemes veto not inadvertently select against credit unions in favour of the larger creditor banks where such a situation obtains?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I am not sure I understood the final question.

It is a question which I was asked to raise with Mr. Brennan. I have asked it specifically as it was put to me.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Does it relate to creditor banks?

Yes, banks funding the unions to some degree on the inter-bank markets.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

We need to be clear, credit unions do not-----

Mr. Brennan can leave that question aside.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I should perhaps clarify it. Credit unions do not borrow on the inter-bank markets. They were not exposed to that type of risk taking. The only source of capital for credit unions derives from member savings. Currently, less than half those savings are out on loan, which the Deputy will agree is a safe position for credit unions to be in. I refer the Deputy to the point made earlier in regard to additional capital.

The Deputy will forgive me if I respond to the questions raised in the wrong order. The issues of stabilisation and the league's savings protection scheme were raised. There is a proposal in the Bill regarding the establishment of a State-run stabilisation scheme. This means that league members will, when this is implemented, need to reflect on the future of their savings protection schemes. Up to this point, stabilisation has been provided by the credit unions. Members of the league took the initiative and put in place this safety blanket for credit unions, which has worked well over the years. It now appears, if the legislation as published is enacted, that a State stabilisation scheme will be put in place. The league and its members will need to reflect on this. Members of the league will make the decision in regard to what will happen to the savings protection schemes.

It is an open question.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

It is an open question and it would not be for ourselves - the league board, the chief executive or anybody else - to make that decision. That is something to be reserved for the members whose funds comprise the stabilisation regime. I missed one of the Deputy's questions.

Who will pay for the losses?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

I am not sure what is meant by losses. Perhaps it is a question of capital equalisation in a merger, which could arise. As far as we are aware, in both the report and the legislation, decisions in that respect are currently reserved for the Minister for Finance. The operation of the restructuring fund, which is what we are discussing, is itself the subject of a state aid application to Brussels. We and the Department of Finance eagerly await a response on that. The types of operation that a restructuring fund can engage in will to some extent be determined by what our European colleagues tell us we can do.

The number of mergers, etc., is unknown and it must remain so as the restructuring process is voluntary. The Deputy spoke about credit unions that are in difficulty, and some may merge because they are under financial or other stress, as we have mentioned today. There is a bigger class of credit unions which will come to this positively and look to an opportunity to come together because they can provide all of the additional services we spoke about before. It is impossible to predict, given that the process is voluntary, how many will be involved in the end.

There are significant changes afoot in this legislation, with the core alteration being the restructuring process. We are backing that and we expect our member credit unions to step up to the plate in that regard. These are the big-ticket items and what we are talking about in terms of governance is really a narrow range of small items.

I thank the delegation for the extremely illuminating explanation of what is going on in the credit unions and how the legislation will have an effect. I have learned much from it, which I appreciate. I would also like to echo the general commendation that people have given the credit union movement for what it does as a model of providing financial services to the community and ordinary people who would sometimes find it difficult to access such services otherwise. Perhaps the positive example is highlighted even more by the current mess we are in. I do not know if it is going too far to say that if the banking system as a whole operated on the basis on which the credit union movement operates, with its ethos and focus, we would not be in this mess in the first place. Perhaps our policy makers should consider that fact.

The concerns have been explained very well, and all the points made are utterly reasonable. The delegation will find widespread support here, as has been indicated, for efforts to defend the core ethos of credit unions, as well as their volunteer and democratic basis. The witnesses seem to see this as being threatened by the current draft legislation. The key concerns seem to be the effects of term limits, prohibitions on board members and omissions in a number of key areas. The elements include not facilitating electronic fund transfers and shared services and the need for legislation to be amended in order for credit unions to be able to lend to Government-backed projects and schemes.

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Social schemes.

In that regard, if the concerns are not taken on board, is there a real threat to the credit union movement? Given how reasonable the concerns are and how they revolve around the core ethos of the credit union movement, which has been an example of how to run financial services, why on earth would anybody propose legislation that could possibly damage it or have an adverse effect? That is what I cannot understand.

It would be hard for the witnesses to answer that.

They may know more than we do because they have been through the process. Perhaps they are being a bit coy in telling us what the difficulty is. They are the people running the credit union movement and having expressed these concerns, they have said the concerns were not adequately taken on board in the draft legislation. I am wondering what the problem is, or is it anticipated there will be a problem? Is there confidence that having had Government and Opposition representatives in here nodding and being positive towards the issues raised, it will be a straightforward process? Is it the case that people were just not listening properly? Will we have a battle on our hands or is this just a straightforward case of making the points to the Government and putting in amendments to the legislation?

As well as deleting parts of the legislation we could insert others.

To clarify, the committee will not be coming to a collective conclusion by way of recommendation on what should be done on the issue.

I understand that. I am getting the vibe in the committee-----

Vibes are fine.

I am wondering if the vibes match the reality that we are confronting. If the concerns were not taken on board in the drafting of the legislation, what possible objections could anybody have to the delegation's requests? I do not understand why it cannot be a straightforward matter.

A simple amendment.

Between the vibes and the reality falls the shadow of the Government party Whips.

This is a pre-legislative exercise. If we were in the business of dealing with legislation, the Minister would be present. That would happen on Committee Stage, for example, in order to tease out issues. In fairness to Mr. Johnson, he made it clear that the witnesses came to set out their views and position. We do not have a Minister present and we have not called on anybody to give the official view. The committee will not be making a determination between different views. We are affording an opportunity to the various bodies to say what they wish and answer questions, and we will communicate this to the Minister. It is an important distinction.

I understand that perfectly, and I do not wish to pre-judge this process. If everything turns out as positively as it sounds in the committee, we will be fine. In some legislation we can experience sharp differences of opinion about what is good for certain areas. I am convinced by what the Irish League of Credit Unions has said about what is needed in this legislation to protect the ethos of the credit unions. The ILCU has much credibility because it has run such an exemplary organisation in the midst of this disastrous financial crisis when other financial institutions failed so miserably.

We must take what they are saying extremely seriously. Do the delegates anticipate difficulties in having their concerns reflected? If so, why will there be such a difficulty?

Mr. Kieron Brennan

Not all of our concerns were reflected in the commission's report, but we support the report. We are onside in terms of its general thrust and the major changes proposed for credit unions which we expect to rise to the challenges. We are focused on a narrow range of concerns, some of which relate to governance, while others are strategically important. We can only hope the Deputy is correct and that the concerns will be taken on board.

The delegates pointed to some omissions. Have they drafted amendments to the Bill to give to members of the committee who could table them on Committee and Report Stages if they are convinced by them?

Ms Fiona Cullen

We would be more than happy to do so.

We would need such amendments very quickly because of the timescale involved and the requirement for the Bill to be published. It would be very helpful if the delegates could get them to us within the next day or so because we could take them on board in respect of communications.

The Irish League of Credit Unions did not respond to one aspect of my question. Perhaps they are being cautious in providing answers. How serious will the problem be for credit unions if their concerns are not reflected in the final legislation and it is not amended to meet them?

Mr. Jimmy Johnson

If there is no provision for electronically enabled accounts or shared services, it will make it more difficult for the credit union movement to develop the services. If they are enabled in legislation, we will need only go through the details with the Central Bank, but the provisions are in place in principle to allow the credit union movement to develop. These matters should have been addressed by the commission, but it was under time pressures. The main focus was on the legislative and regulatory environment. Deputy Peter Mathews mentioned that this was its main focus. The commission discussed these points, but it did not make concrete recommendations in terms of shared services and co-operation between credit unions and credit union service organisations which are prevalent in other credit union jurisdictions. There is a facility to enable their development in order that credit unions can provide particular services for members.

Deputy Peter Mathews raised a point about the future of the league which is the trade and representative organisation for 398 credit unions in the Republic and approximately 100 in Northern Ireland. That is our role. In respect of governance changes and the changes to training and education requirements, the league provides a range of services for member credit unions. Our role as a training and representative organisation will be critical. We had a major impact on the recommendations of the commission. We are fully supportive of the process of change and must support credit unions which look to us for support and will do so again in the very near future. It is a big ask for our staff and volunteer board to step up to meet the task and ensure we support the credit union movement in these difficult times. We must carry forward our ethos and co-operative principles in order that we leave behind a credit union movement that will continue after I finish with the league. We must all add to it and develop and strengthen it to provide better services for members. The role of the league remains critical and will continue to be so.

I think I can speak on behalf of the committee in saying I hope it continues to be the case in order that the role of the league is enhanced. I thank the delegates for attending.

If the league is making a submission with amendments in the next few days, it should ask the committee to analyse the regional closure of banks and what the credit union movement can offer as opposed to what post offices can offer.

We will publish the submissions and send the transcript to the Minister. We will also attempt to identify the main issues. These are not specific recommendations because we do not have time to go through the process of hearing from the official side. This has been an extremely useful exercise and I thank the delegates for taking the time to inform us.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 20 September 2012.

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