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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Thursday, 26 Jan 2017

Business and Banking: Discussion.

I welcome Mr. Jerry Beades, chairman, Friends of Banking Ireland; Ms Jackie Lavin and Mr. Bill Cullen, Premier Cars; and Mr. Séamus Ó Muilleaneoir, chairman, Public Banking Forum of Ireland. I remind members, witnesses and people in the Gallery to turn off their mobile phones as they cause interference with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Mr. Jerry Beades

On behalf of Friends of Banking Ireland, I thank the Chairman and the committee members for their kind invitation to update the committee. My name is Jerry Beades, Chairman of Friends of Banking Ireland. I have worked all my life in construction, engineering and property. Currently, I am chief executive officer, CEO, of JMCI QATAR, an engineering and specialist construction firm operating in Doha, Qatar, on rail and stadium projects for the 2022 World Cup.

I am joined by Brian Reilly, an associate of Friends of Banking Ireland and someone who has suffered financially as the owner of a small and medium enterprise, SME, and as a customer of certain financial institutions. Mr. Reilly is an experienced company director with a background in printing and logistics, including the not-for-profit provision of social housing projects in north County Dublin in the 1970s. Mr. Reilly co-founded Right2Homes in 2016 to provide a fundraising and advocacy platform for a constitutional challenge to the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2013, the so-called eviction Bill, which retrospectively gives banks the weaponry they need to seek repossession of family homes via summary proceedings in the courts.

Friends of Banking Ireland was established in July 2006 to highlight the abject failures in the Irish banking system and the corresponding failure of regulatory oversight. This has already been covered in detail by the banking inquiry and we do not propose to examine the same area covered by that inquiry.

This is the third time Friends of Banking Ireland has come before an Oireachtas committee. As a result of the initial campaigning work, Friends of Banking Ireland presented to the Joint Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs on 13 May 2008. We returned on 16 September 2009 at which time we discussed the meltdown in the financial services sector. Issues covered centred on the light touch approach by the Financial Regulator and supervisory agencies here in Ireland. In the past year, I began to see the exact same patterns emerge in the European and international financial system, as existed prior to the global financial and property market collapse to which I will return. In the period since 2006, Friends of Banking Ireland has worked with a huge number of Oireachtas Members on cases that they felt they could not process through the Central Bank or the Financial Regulator.

With regard to the devastating impact of reckless lending and the failure to regulate, in the summer of 2006, I was the first person in Ireland to publicly and explicitly call for the resignation of the former Financial Regulator, Mr. Patrick Neary. I referred to him as "the dog that didn’t bark". There was nothing personal in that comment. I made it on the basis of his abject failure to question or query the criminally reckless activities of some of the financial institutions his office was meant to regulate.

With regard to family home and family farm evictions, over the weekend, the Free Legal Advice Centre, FLAC, warned that 2017 may be the year of housing repossessions unless dramatic action is taken to assist mortgage borrowers who are in distress. When added to the scale of the repossessions planned for family farms and small businesses, we are not in a position to "Keep the Recovery Going"; instead, we are facing a humanitarian crisis. With others, I was active in challenging auctions of family homes and farms where there were disputes ongoing with financial institutions. Today, I am pleased to say that a code of conduct now exists to ensure that no home or farm will go for auction if there is a dispute ongoing.

What has happened since 2006 is like something from a horror movie. In 2008, at the height of the financial crisis, in documents that can now be viewed online, proposals were put by the late Brian Lenihan, then Minister for Finance, to have a 30% to 50% haircut on mortgage debt. This was to be in parallel with the bank bailout. That did not happen, and I have those documents with me today. Officials got in its way, and it was not even countenanced.

Fast forward almost ten years and we now know that the former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, John Moran, was thrilled to welcome in the vulture funds, as outlined in the excellent RTE documentary, "The Great Irish Sell Off". Those vulture funds have picked up over €200 billion worth of loans, secured against underlying assets at 5% to 20% of the market price. Again, the State is losing out. As the assets are not for sale - only the loans - there is no stamp duty and no gain for the Irish State. The whole set-up is a scam.

In terms of what follows next, the vulture funds call in the loans seeking to take charge of the asset which has been used as security. They then send in the security men who smash doors and change locks, usually under the cover of darkness. Meanwhile, SME type builders who want to get back to work are being crippled with funding costs of up to 15% and more. We wonder why very few homes are being built. The banks are laughing at us because politicians are slapping them on the wrist for ripping off people with tracker mortgages when the bigger financial scandals are being glossed over.

With regard to the potential conflict of interest for the Judiciary, any citizen is able to visit the Oireachtas website and read the register of interests of Members of the Oireachtas, as set out in the Ethics in Public Office Acts 1995 and 2001. That also applies to elected councillors and MEPs. The Irish Judiciary make decisions every day about NAMA, banks, receiverships and liquidations, home repossessions and evictions, yet the view from the Four Courts is that citizens have no right to know if a judge has a potential commercial or personal conflict of interest. Questions have arisen with regard to such conflicts. I believe the scale of the repossession orders and judgments that are currently favourable to the larger banks and financial institutions is a matter that will be the subject of a public inquiry in the coming years. It is in the interest of the Judiciary also to ensure that, just like politicians, they have a transparent and ethical public declaration of their interests.

Traditional banking in Ireland is dead. The current model of banking is broken, and not just in Ireland. If it were not for private equity, venture capital, peer-to-peer lending and the credit unions, day-to-day commerce for hundreds of thousands of small businesses would have effectively ceased. We know the committee has had engagement with Mr. Gerry Mallon, the CEO of Ulster Bank Ireland, Mr. Bernard Byrne, the CEO of Allied Irish Banks, Mr. Jeremy Masding, the CEO of permanent tsb, and Mr. Richie Boucher, the CEO of Bank of Ireland. The members have also heard presentations from Professor Philip Lane, Governor of the Central Bank, and Mr. Derek Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Finance. Their respective presentations were really nothing more than a polite box ticking exercise to say that they had engaged with the Oireachtas. It was not a meaningful engagement.

The Governor of the Central Bank was at pains to tell this committee before Christmas that it did not need to be concerned. He stated: "...the banks are more resilient and the supervisory regime much more robust compared with the pre-2008 period. Nonetheless, the Central Bank needs to maintain its vigilance." He went on to state: "Compared with the pre-crisis situation, the domestic banking sector is now slimmed down." If there was ever an award for understatement of the year, he should get it.

With regard to being unaccountable and unelected, in April 2013, President Michael D. Higgins addressed the European Parliament in Strasbourg. He stated: "...European citizens are suffering the consequences of actions and opinions of bodies such as rating agencies, which, unlike parliaments, are unaccountable." If we substitute the words "rating agencies" from that quote and insert "financial institutions and central banks", it would now read: "European citizens are suffering the consequences of actions and opinions of bodies such as financial institutions and central banks, which, unlike Parliaments, are accountable."

Every member of this committee has been elected through elections to Dáil and Seanad Éireann, and I know they are very conscious of how accountable they are to their electorate. It is always a political or publicity stunt to take a cheap shot at our elected parliamentarians, and there are enough people who never miss an opportunity to kick our elected politicians, rather than engage with them to try to influence change. To lay the blame at politicians only lets those unelected and unaccountable organisations off the hook. There is, however, a deep malaise in the way these institutions operate and it appears to us, as an advocacy group, that those whom we pay to regulate them do not aggressively pursue these financial institutions properly.

With regard to the absence of regulation at Central Bank and European Central Bank level, I have circulated a copy of a very detailed letter sent to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, last year, a copy of which was sent to every Member of the Oireachtas.

It related to legal proceedings initiated in the High Court in Dublin to ensure the European Central Bank and national central bank governors actually regulate the risky lending associated with the oil industry. In the letter, I wrote:

Replace the words property market with the word oil and we are watching an exact replica of the global financial crisis that collapsed banks, bankrupted countries, destroyed families and in many cases, ended lives.

What is happening is an exact replica of the Subprime debacle that started in the United States and eventually engulfed the European banking system. In order to keep lending off their balance sheets, US institutions relied extensively on a lending process called the ‘originate-to-distribute model’, which fueled the subprime mortgage crisis.

The interaction by the committee with the Governor of the Central Bank before Christmas was almost like a slapstick comedy. Members, including the Chairman, effectively forced the Governor and his officials to admit to the scale of the scandal of the tracker mortgages issue. It was clear from responses to questions as to whether anything had been learned in the past decade that the regulators and those we pay to supervise financial institutions are still unwilling and perhaps unable to sanction and regulate the banking and financial services sector. We are staring into a humanitarian crisis involving repossessions and homelessness caused by the abuse of policy.

I wanted to address many issues but I had to keep my statement short. Friends of Banking Ireland has had a high profile since it was established 11 years ago. I will be pleased to answer questions on any issue.

We will take the opening statements first, after which I am sure members will ask the witnesses questions.

Ms Jackie Lavin

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to address the joint committee this morning. I am appearing today on a personal basis representing Glencullen Holdings, which was our company, and on a group basis representing the Ulster Bank GRG Irish Business Action Group. The action group was set up because more than 2,140 Irish businesses have experiences of abuse, breach of contract and unfair treatment at the hands of Ulster Bank's Global Restructuring Group or Ulster Bank GRG. This has resulted in a tsunami of receivers being appointed, businesses closing and lives and families being ruined.

We believe Ulster Bank and its Global Restructuring Group deliberately targeted and shut down viable businesses in a property grab strategy. These businesses are representative of a wide range of sectors, including industry, retail, property, farming, automotive, warehousing and distribution. We represent 60 such businesses and the numbers are increasing daily. When their individual stories unfold, it becomes obvious that there is a commonality of experience.

From 2008 onwards, all businesses experienced cashflow problems as business in general took a dive during the financial crash. Royal Bank of Scotland, the parent group of Ulster Bank, reported a loss of £24 billion and its share price fell by 66%. The bank targeted UK and Irish businesses with loans of between €1 million and €25 million. These businesses were removed from Ulster Bank’s normal relationship managers and placed in its Global Restructuring Group, which is headed up by two special agents of the bank. The reasons given by the bank had a common theme. These special agents or managers were to restructure the debt of each company, guide it through the recession with cost saving strategies, and achieve better productivity, reduced interest rates and so forth. The GRG was sold to the business owners under the guise of the bank taking a special interest in their company in a friendly and caring partnership arrangement. Businesses did not suspect that GRG was a purpose vehicle designed to take down the company, as has been borne out in disclosures in the United Kingdom.

RBS, Ulster Bank and the Global Restructuring Group engaged in a grab for cash strategy. I refer to the whistleblower account on Buzzfeed and the "Newsnight" programme on BBC2. They first targeted companies which had a positive loan-to-value ratio. These companies were essentially easy targets. I will give members a brief snapshot of one of the businesses in question, how it was dealt with and how Ulster Bank and the GRG engineered a default. I refer to our company, Glencullen Holdings limited, which had been a customer of Ulster Bank since 1990 and had never defaulted on a loan. The company was experiencing cashflow difficulties in 2009. In 2010, the bank demanded further securities and pulled in all properties in the group. This gave it an overall cover of properties worth €65 million for a debt of €10.5 million and an overdraft of €1.5 million. In October 2011, the company was put into Ulster Bank's Global Restructuring Group, which immediately started to squeeze the cashflow. It restricted trade, put a shadow director in charge and basically monitored every move, every car that was bought and sold, parts, service and so on. Every cheque payment had to be sanctioned by the shadow director. The bank grabbed all cash that was brought in through the company, including the personal pension of the 100% shareholder and chairman, who had already invested €20 million of his own money in the company. Despite this, the GRG wanted more.

Just six months later, in April 2012, Ulster Bank reduced the overdraft facility for the company from €1.5 million to €800,000. This lack of cash put our franchise terms and conditions contract under pressure and resulted in the company having to pay cash at the gate, so to speak, for all vehicles and parts. At that time, we were turning over €200 million and employed 200 people directly. It was not possible to keep the business going without credit. An internal Ulster Bank Global Restructuring Group document revealed by Buzzfeed and "Newsnight" stated the following: "If the company has not defaulted. We can engineer one." That is how Ulster Bank's GRG engineered our default.

In July 2012, with the lure of cash and at the insistence of the GRG, taking into account the understanding that the company could acquire other franchises, Glencullen decided to part company with its main franchise for a buy-out price. GRG managers-agents went into a frenzy at the thought of cash. They were on the telephone daily during the negotiations - I personally heard these conversations - insisting that the company take the cash. A portion of the payment, namely, €650,000, had been earmarked by the company financial controller for the Revenue Commissioners. While the bank, which controlled the cheque book, agreed to this payment being made provided it received the balance, it was never made.

In September 2012, we secured a stocking loan of €1.5 million from another bank. Ulster Bank refused to sign the standard letter as our main banker, even though it had insisted that we give up our main franchise to bring in cash. Having done this, the bank refused to support any new franchises for us to continue in business. Suddenly, our two GRG relationship managers were not available to sign the letter. Our shadow director said he could not sign, having previously stated there would be no problem in doing so. It became clear to us that Ulster Bank GRG was reneging on its promise. In denying us the franchises, it prevented us from continuing in business.

In October 2012, we were struggling on as we tried to hold on to the business. The GRG managers were on the telephone daily telling us we were insolvent and that we had to call in the receivers. At this time, our property values outweighed our loans by a ratio of at least three to one, even after they had been reduced from the figure of €65 million. We now know that it was a requirement that we call in the receiver because the bank had a difficulty pulling the plug on a company that had not defaulted. It refused to pay Revenue in an attempt to force Revenue to appoint a receiver instead.

Eleven months after GRG took over Glencullen, the receiver was called in and everything was taken, including all our documentation and the back-up receiver. This left us with nothing with which to fight back. In the intervening four years, it has stonewalled us and refused to give us any documentation on loans, a payment schedule or bank accounts in spite of numerous requests. This systematic abuse of customers is mirrored across all the other businesses we spoke to across the country.

Motor industry sales have increased by 66% since 2012. This proves that a company such as ours, which had secured good franchises, would not only have been well able to survive, but would have thrived in the improving economy of the past four years. Having sold five of the prime properties for €8.1 million, Ulster Bank's GRG had its money back as it had written the debt down to €8 million. We were advised of this by the GRG manager. The remainder of the properties have been left derelict with no maintenance or security. They have been broken into and some have been set fire to, with the remainder sold off to vulture funds.

We also believe there were preferred client deals on our properties. We know Ulster Bank's Global Restructuring Group gave a pre-pack deal and right of first refusal arrangement, along with a €12 million loan, to a preferred client to expand his business. This proved that Ulster Bank had an appetite for the motor business at the time, despite informing us that it had no appetite for the motor business.

That particular prime property lay empty for three years and was denied to us and to other investors who approached about purchasing it. Other prime dealerships, such as at Liffey Valley, were taken over by other preferred clients and our customer database was used to write to customers, telling them that they would be opening and looking after their needs. This was within weeks of receivership.

There is a personal loss to all of this, as there is to all of the stories that the committee will hear today. Mr. Aidan Cullen, the managing director of Airside dealership and the younger brother of our chairman, died from a stress-induced heart attack ten days after the receiver took over.

Collectively and conservatively, these 2,141 businesses put into GRG employed over 20,000 people, which is the equivalent of several large multinationals. Their tax contribution to the Exchequer was in excess of €250 million per annum, not taking into account corporate tax. Taking the average salary of €35,000, this equates to over €1.25 billion over the past five years.

The knock-on effect to the economy was and still is immeasurable. The personal debt remains with these people as Ulster Bank sold the loans on to vulture funds for a pittance. That injustice continues as they have taken the bank’s place in pursuing the owners for 100% of the loan. Ulster Bank lied to the joint Oireachtas committee during its submission in December 2016. I was present at the time in the Gallery when its representatives said they had not received any complaints. They received many complaints from customers, our members included. They also committed to writing to all customers. No letters have been received to date.

There is a UK precedent. I refer to the Berg banking report and Ms Alison Loveday is with me today. She compiled that report and is available to answer questions later if the committee so wishes. On 8 November 2016, RBS announced that despite its previous denials, it now accepted that it had failed some GRG business customers and would, as a result, be implementing a new complaints review process and an automatic refund of complex fees charged to GRG customers between 2008 and 2013. Following investigations into the conduct of RBS, Mr. Andrew Tyrie, MP, chairman of the UK parliamentary treasury select committee labelled findings "shocking", and demanded that the firms affected be paid compensation. He said that many businesses "who deserved better" have been at the wrong end of RBS conduct. Dr. Lawrence Tomlinson has also commented that the perverse incentives described in the Tomlinson report did exist within GRG. He went on to comment that there were many questions for the banks and the regulator to answer. Mr. John Mann, MP, has asked the Serious Fraud Office to open an "urgent investigation" into RBS.

RBS files expose the bank’s secret scheme to boost revenues during the financial crisis by draining businesses of cash and stripping their assets. Key findings show that, under pressure from the Government, the largely taxpayer-owned bank ran down businesses in its restructuring unit as part of a deliberate, pre-meditated strategy to cut lending and bolster profits. RBS GRG managers encouraged employees to hunt for ways to boost their bonuses by forcing customers into loan restructuring in order to extract heavy fees as part of the profit drive nicknamed "Project dash for cash". Firms that had never missed a loan payment were pushed into GRG under the bank’s secret policies for reasons that had nothing to do with financial distress. This helped the restructuring unit to a profit of more than £1 billion in a single year. The property division, which amassed assets worth £3.3 billion during the crisis, was passed confidential information that was not available to other bidders when it wanted to acquire properties from businesses in GRG.

A vast proportion of RBS’s business loans were secured against real estate and most agreements contained a loan-to-value covenant stipulating that the customer's borrowing must not exceed 70% to 80% of the value of the assets. The dire economic outlook made it easy to argue that a fall in the value of properties put customers in breach of their loan-to-value covenants. That meant that the bank was able to break the deal. The problem for the bank’s customers was that property valuations are, as its executives later admitted in their evidence to parliament, "an art as well as a science". RBS often evaluated properties in a way that dispensed with any independent checks and balances. RBS managers needed only to perform an internal "desktop valuation", effectively just estimating how much a property would be worth. RBS auditors raised concerns that the "valuation of properties might be manipulated as valuation is performed internally". Managers also tended to assess the value of customers' property on the basis of how much it would sell in a fire sale rather than in an ordinary sale.

It can thus be seen from the various UK Government and media investigations and a review of the bank’s own internal documents that a deliberate process was adopted by the bank to improve its own position at the cost of the bank's customers. There is a solution. In order to achieve fair play and justice against Ulster Bank GRG, we need to level the playing field in the costs of attaining justice. In accordance with the Irish Constitution and EU law, every citizen is entitled to access to justice. For many SMEs, the timelines and costs associated with court proceedings are impossible. The Judiciary needs to deal with cases justly and at an appropriate cost, which includes ensuring the parties are on an equal footing and properly considering the financial position of each party. Affected SMEs in Ireland that were closed down by the actions of the GRG should receive free legal aid or be funded by Ulster Bank. After all, the bank's costs are being paid from the customer’s estate and are being added up against the customer’s debt.

Disclosure is a clear part of the litigation process whereby clear and concise documents relevant to enabling the court to determine issues within a case are provided to save time and costs. Agreeing from the outset what documents the bank is obliged to provide would avoid a situation whereby claimants would be forced to guess at what documents are available or forced to argue their case without the benefit of the documents. A relaxing of the disclosure rules to allow claimants to share documents would sort this. There could be a standard set of documents relevant to GRG claims or Libor actions. This would avoid the need for each individual claimant to incur costs in seeking disclosure of the same. For example, each bank could decide which cases to settle, subject to confidentiality, what disclosures to provide in each case and prevent employees from speaking out or whistleblowing by again making their severance terms subject to confidentiality and so on.

A standard methodology could be agreed for calculating loss. The refund of complex fees as offered in the UK is totally inadequate and is no match for the losses endured by GRG customers. The Central Bank and the Financial Regulator should take an active role in forcing Ulster Bank to compensate customers who have suffered at the hands of GRG and rescind their banking licence pending an independent inquiry and a proper compensation package being put in place. They should reject out of hand the so-called "complaints" system put in place by Ulster Bank, whereby one has to write into the bank to have one's complaint evaluated by the bank itself. In that system, the abused customer is expected to once again enter the lion’s den to complain about the lion. The statement of claim from the Ulster Bank GRG action group is estimated to be in the region of €500 million to date and will rise accordingly as more companies join the group.

The Central Bank code of conduct rules state that all financial institutions must act in the interest of the customer and in good faith. Clearly, the opposite is the case in this instance.

I thank Ms Lavin. I now call Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom focal buíochais a ghabháil leis an gCathaoirleach as ucht an cuireadh a thabhairt domsa agus don Public Banking Forum of Ireland, PBFI, teacht inniu agus toradh ár gcuid taighde agus eolais a roinnt leis an gcoiste.

The Public Banking Forum of Ireland is a non-profit, non-funded, independent organisation with a growing support across the country. We clearly support and promote the introduction of a comprehensive public banking network in this country based primarily on the credit unions, but most of all, on a system that puts credit back into the hands of the general public. That is almost the sine qua non of the PBFI. For the purposes of clarity, the Public Banking Forum of Ireland wants to put it on the record that the creation or facilitation of credit, of what we all call money and use as money, has effectively been in the controlling hands of private entities since the Central Bank Act 1942.

That process has consolidated down into the hands of three or four chief bank executives in the current system. No matter who they are, that is the system. As the late US President John F. Kennedy supposedly said, "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it". The impact of the above decision has been accounted for here by those on my left and right, but, in fact, the committee has only heard the tip of the iceberg. The golden rule is that he who makes the gold calls the shots. He who creates the credit calls the shots.

A comprehensive public banking system, owned in perpetuity by the Irish people, which can be neither bought nor sold and is backed by the natural assets of the State, can correct that mistake. While it is far from my function or my authority, or that of the PBFI, to dictate policy, we believe that we have provided, in the linkages here and other information that we have available, the material to back up what we have to say. We believe that if it cannot be refuted, then it should be implemented.

Money, which is better referred to as credit, is the life blood of the economy. Banks control its creation, the purpose for which it is loaned and who gets it. Banks create the money supply when they make loans and in this process, they are facilitating credit creation by each man woman or person. It is this credit, released by the banks, which we use as money. Approximately, 3% of the money supply is in cash, as notes or coins.

Banks control where the credit is loaned. For the most part, they decide who is facilitated with credit and for what purpose, and that purpose can be either for the productive economy or for asset speculation. We need seriously to discuss, debate and decide what constitutes the productive economy. Credit facilitation by the commercial banks for asset speculation leads to property price escalation, boom-bust cycles and, eventually, wealth transfer. UK figures for credit creation for the decade up to the crash of 2008 show that only 8% went to businesses outside the financial sector.

The current banking system in Ireland can be referred to as three or four commercial banks, with Bank of Ireland, AIB and Ulster Bank controlling 95% of lending to small businesses. Irish companies pay some of the highest rates of interest in Europe. In effect, credit control is in the hands of three or four individuals. According to the ISME Bank Watch Survey Q3 2016, access to finance is still a problem in the bracket up to €0.5 million. Above that, there is a certain facility available. We would suggest that should be done differently as opposed to funds being administered from the ISIF and the SBCI. Nonetheless, there is a big gap in the market between what the credit unions have been providing and what needs to be provided in that small sector. SMEs require volumes of credit. It needs to be professionally administered, properly focused, and fully supervised in a system which is ethical for all concerned, and not based on collateral collection. As the committee has just heard, this does not exist today.

The banking situation in Ireland has deteriorated since the crash. While the banks at that stage were deemed to be systemically too important and they had to be bailed out, the system now has contracted down to effectively four. We would suggest that the "’too-big-to-fail"’ gun is already to our heads again and I would ask the following questions. Is CBOI regulation fixated on the small people rather than the IFSC? Who actually owns the €150 billion in assets, debts or loans - call them whatever one likes - held in SPVs, and who owns the €430 billion held in FVCs? Who can explain the CIA's figure of approximately €1.7 trillion in total Irish debts? Do savers and depositors understand EU 2012 bail-in legislation? Do they understand the European Banking Authority, EBA, findings that our banks are among the riskiest in the EU? Furthermore, who owns Irish Payment Services Organisation, IPSO, a tool by which complete control is exercised over our cash machines and all the payments within the State? I suggest that until that matter is totally analysed and dealt with, we will make little progress.

Credit unions are being driven out of existence in the interests of the commercial banking industry. We have known this for quite a while because the same pressure is being exercised from the ECB on the German Sparkassen model and on the co-operative models. Our most recent contribution to it is that they will be lucky to end up with 600 independent units whereas up to now they have operated 1,430 publicly-owned banks in Germany. The pressure on the credit unions is not unique.

Failed economic theories will not work. They will not solve Ireland's problems. Proven economic principles must be applied. New thinking is required to arrest the slide into total urbanisation of the Irish people, and total dependence on foreign direct investment, FDI. The concept of growth needs to be at least debated and defined. By and large, growth equals growth in debt - that is how it is defined.

A serious restriction on credit facilitation has to be brought to bear. Credit for speculative purposes must be seriously restricted in support of SMEs, the productive economy and communities. At least ten regional community banks across the country are essential, and utterly affordable over five years at a cost of less than €150 million. That is less than €40 per head of population, which would hardly break the unborn.

We believe that the German Sparkassen model best suits Ireland. That model can be modified to suit Ireland and expertise from the Savings Banks Foundation for International Cooperation, SBFIC, can be sought. It is a model proven over 200 years. The post offices could also pursue the highly successful New Zealand Kiwi post office bank model as established in 2002, now with over 800,000 customers and, I understand, having cleared €80 million in profit last year. If that is the case, it must have cleared the bones of €500 million since it was set up on 2002.

If Ireland were to adopt the German model of community banking, we would need 45 to 50 community or publicly-owned banks of some shape, make or form. Ireland has a perfect framework from which to build, in the public interest, a comprehensive public banking network. We have the credit unions and the An Post network which are a perfect platform. We suggest that the expertise of the SBFIC be employed to design the model for us. Some years ago it made us the offer to do so at cost.

Community banks serve a range of purposes. They put credit into communities and they break up the monopoly. When they are properly focused, such as the German Sparkassen, they fund and support the small SME sector, which provides 70% of jobs. They reduce the control of and dependence on the "too-big-to-fail" banks. Regions are supported as is the indigenous potential of the state.

The safety of deposits becomes a real issue because, whether people know it, banks do not take deposits; they borrow money from people who think they are making deposits. The nature of a private company is to make a profit. Private banks pursue profit and that is all they will do. We have seen plenty of this. Private entities should not be allowed to hold a gun to the heads of the people and the Government over the provision of credit and capital. Private entities cannot be allowed to decide whether to house our homeless, treat the sick or deliver quality of life to Irish citizens tomorrow or ever.

Every project requires three items, which are the will, the skills and the capital. We have the will and we have the skill, but the capital is in the hands of a tiny number of people. Community banks would change this. The question of market share needs to be raised and I will return to this point when answering questions.

A comprehensive public banking system owned in perpetuity by the Irish people is a change that would put a stop to the monopoly. If we were to look at the German model, which I hope we will discuss, we can clearly see it has a very different policy. A total of 89% of businesses in Germany have a turnover of less than €1 million. We have many dairy farmers and shopkeepers turning over this amount. Only 1% of businesses have a turnover of more than €50 million. Co-operative banks, and the Sparkassen banks in particular, are the backbone of the German economy. I have statistics if committee members want me to read them out. A total of 3.7 million small and medium enterprises form the backbone of the German economy. They represent 99.95% of all companies. They employ 29.1 million people, or 68% of the working population in Germany. They provide training for 1.2 million young people, which is 89% of all trainees. Micro-enterprises with fewer than ten employees provide 34% of workplaces in Germany.

Our dedication in this country is to foreign direct investment and bigger is better, and these are absolutely flawed concepts and must be corrected. Community banks are part of the process of re-empowering communities and taking back from the vested interests the control they have over every man, woman and child. A commercial banking industry which is 98% self-serving and bleeds 40% of the economy full time needs to be changed. If the committee wants me to translate this in a simple way, at present our property prices are three times what the average individual can afford. This arises primarily out of a lack of credit control.

I welcome the three delegations and thank them for their opening statements. I will begin with Ms Lavin, who made a very strong opening statement. It was powerful stuff on her experience with Ulster Bank. She made very strong allegations about engineering a default and manipulation. She alleged it lied when it came before the committee in December. In her opinion, where should all of this go now? We are observing what is going on in the UK. Here, the Central Bank does not have any ongoing investigation into Ulster Bank and the treatment of the 2,141 SME customers who ended up in its Global Restructuring Group, GRG, of which fewer than 100 came out intact. Is it the case that all of this will have to be worked through the courts with civil proceedings by all the borrowers? In Ms Lavin's view, should there be a comprehensive Central Bank-led investigation using its statutory powers into this very issue?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It is absolutely essential the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator take the lead on this. They have put up their hands in the UK and admitted wrongdoing. The Central Bank has to lead an independent investigation. The complaints mechanism which Ulster Bank speaks about putting in place is totally inadequate. It has already led two of these, here and in the UK, whereby it paid a so-called independent entity to find it completely not guilty, which was a whitewash as we all know now because of the revelations which have since come to light. It is essential that the Central Bank takes the leading role and establishes a proper independent investigation so proper compensation can be set aside for these companies which have suffered because it is quite clear now it was a deliberate bringing down of perfectly viable companies that would have survived through the recession. We hear this every single day through the organisation we have established.

How widespread does Ms Lavin believe the practice was among SME borrowers who ended up in GRG?

Ms Jackie Lavin

They were only put into GRG so their properties could be taken. It is most unlikely that 2,140 people would be put into GRG and only six would come out. I know because of questioning by Deputy Doherty when Ulster Bank came before the committee that it admitted it could have been up to 100 people. Up to 100 could be one or 99. I believe it is six, and I know one of the people who came through it. The reason he feels he came through it was because his properties were not prime and ready for sale. They were half built, three quarters built or in bits and pieces. They were not prime properties. Those taken first were prime properties ready to go and be sold in a fire sale. It was widespread because it is not possible that out of 2,140 only six would survive. It is not possible.

My next question is for Mr. Beades. We have heard strong testimony on Ulster Bank. The question must be put whether the same practices were prevalent in other banks. They also had sections for problem loans and customers ended up in the sections and many of them did not come out. If there is to be an investigation into Ulster Bank, are the characteristics and traits similar in other banks in the view of Mr. Beades?

Mr. Jerry Beades

It is wholesale throughout all the banks. I attended some of the meetings in the North of Ireland when Mr. Tomlinson came over from the UK, which were also attended by Ms Lavin, when this opened up. As a result of attending the meetings, I discovered I was a victim of GRG. As Deputy McGrath knows, I have been on ACC's case and on the case of a number of other banks and I did not need another front opening up.

However, we in Friends of Banking Ireland had been following Ulster Bank and I have spoken publicly on it. Ulster Bank was also operating 27 legal entities, including Ulster Bank Ltd. and Ulster Bank Ireland Ltd. The 27 legal entities, between business names and companies in Northern Ireland, the UK and Ireland, were operating in the Republic. When they were taking people to court, and this is a similar issue in respect of Bank of Ireland and Bank of Ireland Private Banking, one discovered that the wrong bank was taking the person to court, yet the court ignored it. The attitude was "So what, you owe them money", which has been happening in the courts. That is why I mentioned the Judiciary issue.

We had been lobbying before this current round. The then chief executive of Ulster Bank appeared in the House of Commons four years ago and we contacted Sammy Wilson MP and got him to ask questions of the chief executive on a raft of issues. Ulster Bank is rotten to the core. It was involved in changing the indexes on its Irish subsidiaries from 2006 on, which resulted in changing contract terms, writing to people and giving them options. If one did not take the option, it changed one's contracts. All of these letters have gone missing. They are not on people's files and one cannot get them under data protection. It is a complete and utter mess. While we are discussing Ulster Bank here, this is replicated across almost every bank, unregulated by the Central Bank.

On the role of receivers, does Mr. Beades think receivers are properly regulated in Ireland? This is an issue I have pursued by parliamentary questions. Receivers can be appointed under company law or land and conveyancing law. It appears that the framework around the appointment and conduct of receivers is weak. Instances have been brought to my attention where assets were mismanaged, receiverships were kept going seemingly in perpetuity and presumably with direct benefit by way of fees, ultimate decisions made were not commercially sound and the borrower was completely in the dark and locked out of the entire process. What is Mr. Beades's view on the role of receivers and what can be done to make them more transparent and accountable? What rights should the borrowers whose assets have been put into receivership have as part of that process?

Mr. Jerry Beades

The receivership area is the wild west. It is unregulated, unaccountable theft across the board. If one looks at other jurisdictions, New Zealand and Australia have introduced legislation in this regard. When I was preparing for this meeting yesterday I came across a KPMG report which reiterated almost everything the Deputy said in the parliamentary debates in Australia and New Zealand. Those countries have introduced regulation because they had this carry-on seven to ten years ago.

The receivership area is mostly unknown to people. I happen to be very lucky in so far as I have a personal friend for 30 years who is a receiver, so I was able to gain expert knowledge. He would be a low profile receiver but he has carried out over 700 receiverships in 30 years. What has taken place is astonishing. It is an area even the legal profession does not understand. If it is a company, it is recorded in the Companies Registration Office, but we refer to the private receiverships.

Parliamentary questions have been tabled on this issue. Deputy Pearse Doherty might have asked some in the past, as we communicated with him on these issues. The Central Bank has replied that it does not keep statistics. These are the private receiverships. What happens, effectively, is that they are appointed on the mortgage document. When people sign a mortgage document, they sign away their rights and give the bank the power to appoint a receiver if anything goes wrong. The document varies from bank to bank and from receiver to receiver. It is unregulated.

With regard to public banking, Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir said that credit unions and post offices offer the ideal platform to develop such a model. At present, credit unions are sitting on billions of euro that they cannot lend because of lending restrictions and long-term lending restrictions. Many credit unions have a monthly cap on what they can lend and many have a maximum loan size. Is there a need to re-invent the wheel? Should we not put a public policy focus on developing the potential of credit unions, given that they are in practically every town and village in the country? It is similar with post offices. I am not sure what is Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir's plan. Is it to put capital in and then go to the markets to raise more money to lend ultimately to borrowers? Why not just develop the credit unions and the post offices, which are not-for-profit and have a voluntary ethos in many respects as well?

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

I am delighted to get that question because it is something that must be clarified. Within the next two weeks we will publish a paper on this issue and how we suggest it should be done. The committee will receive a copy of that as part of this debate. It is almost due to be printed but there are a few i's to be dotted and t's to be crossed. It is ready. It is a comprehensive and valuable document.

The Deputy asked fundamental questions and he can respond if I do not answer the exact question he asked. Fundamental to this issue is the matter of credit and the role of credit unions. Credit union, by definition, is something of an oxymoron. Technically, credit unions lend money from their deposits, whereas banks facilitate credit creation which is a very different issue. That critical element must be understood. Take the example of the €7.5 billion or €8 billion in excess deposits that credit unions have. If the credit unions were to deploy that into ten community banks and worked on the principle of the German Sparkassen, they could create a loan book of approximately €40 billion almost overnight. That would fund many things. Likewise, there was money in the pension funds and €7.9 billion of that was handed over to Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF. I believe that was a very wrong use of those funds. They could have been used on the basic principle of the German Sparkassen. Between the credit unions and that fund of €7 billion, a loan book of €90 billion could have been created which could have solved a range of issues in debt write down and could have supported a range of new businesses. That cannot happen overnight, as it must be allowed to develop, but the potential that exists is enormous.

Nobody can say that there is no room in this economy for credit. There is plenty of room, and there is also the clout to create it. That clout must be put back into the communities, because the credit unions are not allowed to use it. What has been done with the ISIF funds is utterly wrong. One of the suggestions made to us by the Germans is that we bracket the lending in the community banks. They suggested that the credit unions would continue to lend in the bracket up to €20,000, give or take a little, that the community banks would lend from that figure to perhaps €500,000 or €600,000 and that a further entity would be created to lend from that bracket to €10 million. Not many of the latter would be required. However, the gap at the upper end is being filled at present by the ISIF funds and the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI. They are just institutions lending out real money, whereas credit could be used to manage all of that if we understood and managed the credit. Does that answer the Deputy's question?

Yes. I thank the witness.

Cuirim fáilte roimh gach éinne. I agree with the Chairman and Deputy Michael McGrath that the three groups put forward very good and strong presentations.

My colleague, Senator Rose Conway-Walsh will focus more on public banking and the submission from the chairman of the Friends of Banking Ireland. I will touch on some of those issues later but first I focus on the issue of Ulster Bank. I know the organisation is newly formed but members of it would have engaged with Mr. Tomlinson when he came to Ireland. Is that correct?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, many of them would have been at the first meeting which was held in Belfast. As Mr. Beades has already said, that was the first time many of us realised and recognised how badly done by we had been. We did not have enough insider knowledge of it before then.

Ulster Bank continued to claim that it was outside the scope of the Tomlinson report. Is that correct?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It did, yes.

From Ms Lavin's engagement with Mr. Tomlinson at that meeting, was she led to believe that she was within the scope of his report?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Absolutely. We did, yes.

I was trying to dig up the quote, but Mr. Tomlinson has said clearly that he believes the tactics employed by RBS were the exact same tactics as employed by Ulster Bank here in Ireland.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, that is his belief. He believes that it was a deliberate and premeditated strategy of dash for cash.

Has Ms Lavin had any engagement with officials of the Central Bank of Ireland?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Apart from writing letters, no. I have had a letter and an acknowledgement of the letter, a fairly bland response basically.

In late 2013, there was also a report in one of the national newspapers in which Greg Harkin interviewed a former executive of Ulster Bank who claimed that the dash for cash, as Ms Lavin mentioned, was happening within Ulster Bank. There were engineered defaults and what he witnessed within the bank was appalling. Has Ms Lavin's organisation been able to reach out to that individual?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, we have. To be honest, I and several other members of the newly formed group have been working on this for over four years, some people for longer. We have not had the possibility of access to justice through the courts, first, because of costs and, second, because we felt that everything was stacked against us. One went in as a lay litigant but, on the other side, senior counsel and everything was stacked against one. It was not an even playing field. In most cases, one was turfed out of the courts.

The means of reporting to the Financial Services Ombudsman are not available or accessible to most people. I tried to engage with the office and they came back to me saying that it was only available to companies that had a turnover of up to €3 million. I asked what people who have a turnover well and truly in excess of that amount do, and they said: "Well, you have the courts, the High Court". In other words, therefore, one has nothing. There are no means of complaint for people with over that amount of money.

We appreciate that and we have had discussions on different legislation about why that figure of €3.5 million exists. It probably shines a spotlight on the difficulty of accessing the courts by commercial individuals or those who have a turnover of more than that amount.

The whistleblower in Ulster Bank was a former executive of the bank operating here in Ireland. He claims that the banks put a business into a special unit. A business would be moved along to another section of the bank and overnight all the credit terms would be changed, which is similar to the story mentioned by Ms Lavin. He says that eventually the business ran out of cash, the assets were seized and sold on, and all the money went to Ulster Bank's bottom line. I have to stress that there was no default even likely in many cases and what went on was simply outrageous.

Ms Lavin talked about the difficulty of accessing the courts. On my proposal, the committee has written to the Central Bank asking it to investigate these areas. It has informed us in correspondence that it is engaged with Ulster Bank, yet it is not willing to have an independent investigation. Has Ms Lavin's organisation been able to reach out to the former executive of Ulster Bank? Obviously, he or she was not named in this newspaper report. The information that he or she may hold could be key to forcing the Central Bank to investigate - with the evidence of the Tomlinson report and the evidence presented by individuals - if it is not willing to carry out an investigation of its own volition. The whistleblower may be the key to tipping it into acting in this regard.

Ms Jackie Lavin

We are not aware of that particular individual. We are aware of several individuals who purport to have insider information. We are not aware of the particular individual that Deputy Doherty referred to, so we are not in possession of that information.

Does Ms Lavin believe that what happened in Britain was a carbon copy of what happened here?

Ms Jackie Lavin

We fully believe that because any of the businesses that one talks to - ours included - is just a mirror image of what happened to everybody else. It was only by finding out what happened to other people over the past four years that we have accumulated and assimilated this information. The same commonality is right throughout everybody's story, even though it concerns different industries from different parts of the country. Over 250 people were engaged on behalf of Ulster Bank in the GRG and they were looking after 2,000 customers. They were vociferous in their engagement with the companies in Ireland, much more so than they were in the UK. They had over 12,000 companies to deal with in the UK and I feel that on a one-to-one basis they were more vociferous in Ireland than they were in the UK.

Ulster Bank made it clear that fewer people would have come out of the GRG than would have done in Britain and they gave reasons for that. I will focus on the number. When Ulster Bank representatives were before the committee, I asked Mr. Andrew Blair if the number was six and he said it was more than that. I asked him if it was seven and he said: "It is more than six or seven." He also gave a commitment to this committee as follows: "Subsequent to the meeting, I could certainly provide the Deputy with a number." I then asked him if it was fewer than 100 and he said that was the case. In fairness to Ulster Bank, subsequent to the meeting, it was supposed to give us the number, but it has told us that approximately 100 of these cases returned to the bank. It has not given us the number, but an approximation so perhaps that is something we should follow up with the bank. Ms Lavin is claiming that the number is as low as six. Can she enlighten the committee on that?

Ms Jackie Lavin

My reasoning for that is because I participated in the so-called inquiry that was initiated by Ulster Bank with Mason, Hayes and Curran. In their report they said they received several hundred complaints, but they only interviewed five complainants. I assume the reason they only interviewed five - we were one of the five - is because they wanted to keep it at that number. There was a report in The Irish Times by a well known journalist who alleged that only six came out.

I have seen that report and we will follow it up with Ulster Bank. Regardless of whether it is six or 96, the fact is that over 2,000 Irish companies, with tens of thousands of employees, had a huge tax bill. Given what people from these businesses have said to me privately, they went bust as a result of being put on death row by Ulster Bank.

With the support of the committee we will, hopefully, continue to pursue this issue. I believe that the Central Bank has to carry out this investigation. It is not appropriate for businesses that have been thrown to the wolves to have to fight this through the courts. Our regulators are there to do the job. This committee was instrumental previously, as was mentioned by Mr. Beades, in dealing with the tracker mortgage scandal. Our letter to the Central Bank, on foot of a request from the Irish Mortgage Holders' Organisation, led to the industry-wide investigation which we now know involved 15,000 victims.

Hopefully, the pressure from the committee results in some sort of clarity. Ms Lavin mentioned that the Ulster Bank lied to us. Can she explain exactly or, after the meeting, submit the transcript of what Ulster Bank stated and exactly why Ms Lavin believes it was not accurate? I am not sure if it was-----

Ms Jackie Lavin

Mr. Blair, who was representing Ulster Bank on that particular day, said he had received no complaints. Maybe that was because there was no complaints mechanism, but the bank certainly received numerous complaints. To say it got no complaints was, to say the least, a mistruth.

Deputy Michael McGrath raised the issue of receivers. It is an issue that I know has been deeply frustrating for Mr. Beades's organisation and those it represents. It is an area we have raised ourselves with Government officials previously. Mr. Beades said it was very difficult to understand and that many members of the Judiciary do not understand it. With the support of the Chair, if the Chair so wishes, I invite Mr. Beades to submit to the committee a short paper as to what he believes should happen in relation to regulation. What are the areas we need to focus on in terms of receivers? Sometimes, when we deal with issues of repossessions, we sometimes, as a people, focus on the top number, which is the number of houses that have been repossessed, and not on the way they are repossessed. Mr. Beades' presentation has shone a light on some of those issues. Given the time constraints, it would be interesting for the committee to look at that area to see if we can move it on. I invite Mr. Beades to speak on that.

I have long been an advocate of public banking. At this committee many years ago, the former Governor of the Central Bank, Mr. Patrick Honohan, acknowledged that there was space for a Sparkassen model and that was something to be welcomed. What engagement has there been with the Central Bank or the Department of Finance to move this forward given that there is somewhat of a commitment in the programme for Government and that the former Governor is on the record as saying a third tier of banking is possible or desirable in the State?

Mr. Jerry Beades

We will submit a paper to the committee on the receivership issue because it is a no-man's land, which is probably the best way to describe it. No one understands it. As an organisation, we have been at the forefront of a lot of receivership disputes. We have been involved in court cases where we have challenged receivers and have been successful in a number. This goes right across the banking sector to include even what Ms Lavin is talking about and the Governor of the Central Bank. When a private individual has to go to court, law is an evolving concept, based on precedent. As such, the case that goes first sets the scene for how one's case will be dealt with. In fact, in banking law it never evolves or develops because the banks have long pockets and fight one the whole way to the steps of the court. When they are going to lose, as we have seen in a number of receivership cases, they settle on the morning of the trial. They buy the case off. As such, the law for the citizen never develops. There is a famous case, namely, McPhillips, who was against a receiver and what went on in it was appalling in the cross-examination done by lay litigants. This was early last year. It got so embarrassing for the receivers involved that, with a couple of million owed, it has been settled for buttons. Of course, there is a confidentiality clause. In fairness, the judge was one of the few judges down in the Four Courts who allowed lay litigants to conduct cross-examination to get to the bottom of it. Most of the Judiciary do not because they are compromised because of their own involvement with banks.

Citizens' law never develops. We have a massive problem down the courts. It is not just the Judiciary. The courts system is not fit for purpose and neither is the Central Bank. The oil case I referred to, which has run for three days in the courts, has not even got media coverage. What has come out of it is that the Central Bank, the Governors and the ECB are totally immune from prosecution. I have prosecuted 23 governors and 23 central banks. It is back in court next week. The outcome is that they are immune even though the Slovenian governor was arrested and the Slovenian bank has been raided for €300 million fraud. They are claiming they are immune and the Slovenian police are saying they are not. It is a complete farce. When one talks about the banking sector and the private banks the guys are talking about, we are all part of groups and we all interact. I attend their meetings and I am familiar with it. With the Central Bank and the ECB, it goes to the heart of Europe. It goes to the heart even at the moment of Brexit. Where is Europe taking us? The whole banking sector is not fit for purpose in Europe, which is another day's battle. I am going into another area which is probably not for this committee. However, there are serious issues to be addressed for ordinary citizens.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

That is the understatement of the century. Serious fundamental issues have to be addressed. I will go back to Deputy Pearse Doherty and try to answer his question about our communications with the Department of Finance and the Central Bank. In the case of the Central Bank, the PBFI has had no direct contact. However, we know that a representative of the German SBFIC in Bonn met them about three years ago when that person came here to meet us. They acknowledged that gap in the market in their discussions and it is part of a paper which is referenced in our submission. I met Deputy Michael McGrath in his Dáil office with two consultants from the German Sparkassen foundation. Out of that came a 42-page paper, which is also available to the committee. It was submitted in due course to all of the political parties, the Department of Finance and nearly everybody got a version of it in some form or other, even though it was a confidential document or had limited confidentiality about it.

That document is important but what is more important is that we engaged a little bit with the Secretary General of the Department of Finance in 2015 and were told the matter was under serious consideration and not to worry. Having pressed the issue in terms of the follow-up from the Department, we got a reply from the Minister and from the Secretary General on 7 and 8 January last year. Personally speaking, those two letters are an embarrassment and I would not even publish them. I will say no more about them. The fact that they could even be written is an extraordinary statement of either utter stupidity or absolute complicity in the structure of the problem. I am not talking about the solution; I am talking about the problem. That is the answer to the question. We have no communications. As a result of those two letters, we set about establishing the public banking alliance for the last general election to try to shove the issue into the public domain. That has been very successful in forcing the issue onto the programme for Government and it has been very helpful in terms of some of the proposals being put forward with respect to post offices. We have been prodding that issue about the Kiwi model. Does that answer the question?

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. From my own experience, I can concur with almost everything that has been said here today. The behaviour of the banks has caused devastation right across the banking system and the country, in particular in rural Ireland.

I am particularly interested in Ms Lavin's evidence put forward on the engineering defaults. It absolutely reflects my experience, which is that the most responsible, viable businesses in rural areas have been shut down because of minor cash flow problems. The system has been engineered such that those businesses have been affected. The tragedy, as referred to, is that there are many people who would be alive today were it not for the way the banking system and individuals within the banks behaved right across the country. They have behaved that way only because they have been allowed to do so. That is the crux of the problem. Jobs have been lost and there has been significant emigration. All these factors combined caused the devastation. I appreciate the attendance of the delegation. We have had the bankers before us also. We, as legislators, are here to determine how we can prevent what happened from happening again and how we can right some of these wrongs.

I completely agree with the delegates' analysis of the European banking system because it is a case of the emperor having no clothes. At some point, somebody will have to say that all the quantitative easing and everything done in the background are sustaining a system that has not been fixed. What is coming down the road to us is very unpleasant indeed. Ulster Bank delegates who appeared before us referred to the number of repossessions and the loans in arrears for over 90 days. The bank openly admitted the number of repossessions would increase this year. This year will probably be more devastating than any of the previous years.

One of Mr. Beades' main points was that the regulators in this State are simply not doing their job. Is this because of a lack of will or because of the lack of a legal basis?

Mr. Jerry Beades

It is very hard to answer that question. We are dealing with the matter every day of the week and note that there is a complete lack of reality. We met Ms Sharon Donnery, now the Deputy Governor, ten years ago. I am astonished she has reached Deputy Governor level because of where she was positioned in the earlier days at the time of Mr. Patrick Neary. The whole Department she ran was not fit for purpose. We could not engage. One could tell the Department a story but one never got an answer back. We found from the banking inquiry, etc., that it did nothing. The same people are appearing again. I was astonished to see Ms Donnery appear at some of the committee meetings here. Nothing has changed from our perspective.

The Senator referred to the statistics and the numbers. What alarms me more is that the statistics being fed out here are so wrong. In the context of where we have come from and the statistics we put together, we conclude 4,000 self-employed people basically vanished. They were not allowed to sign on for welfare and some emigrated. They are still out there and we still meet them. They still come to our offices and they are down in the courts. They are not entitled to anything but they are there. I reckon, therefore, that the number of people in financial difficulty is closer to 500,000. Some 2 million people pay tax and work in the State. Some 25% of the population, or thereabouts, is affected directly.

Let me give some other statistics. We have an office at the back of the Four Courts. Much of what we do is low profile and we are not telling everybody we have fairly sophisticated organisations in different sections, or otherwise. In a three-month period last year, 1,045 people walked in the door of our office and I got the staff to keep statistics on them. Of those who came in, there was nobody under 29. A 29 year old now was 19 ten years ago and was not borrowing money. There is a whole generation of people up to the age of 30 something who do not have financial debt. Some 200 of the people who came to our office, or 20%, were between 30 and 40. They range from gardaí to civil servants and others right across the spectrum. All are in debt. I called into the office one day and met a young woman with two children and a pram who owed €7 million to a bank. It is just astonishing what we see.

I am conscious of my time.

Mr. Jerry Beades

May I just finish and give the last statistic? Eight hundred people, or 80%, were between 40 and 80. An 80 year old would have been 70 ten years ago when doing his last deal and he is now facing eviction. These numbers are not being discussed by any organisation, yet when one asks the Central Bank for the statistics we ask for through some of the Deputies, it says it does not keep statistics on SME debt or the number of SME loans.

The revelations this morning that the consumer protection and whistleblower lines to the Central Bank are not even in operation were interesting. That speaks volumes about how seriously it takes its consumer protection role.

Does Mr. Beades believe the law needs to be changed? Alternatively, does he believe the existing powers are sufficient to address what we need to address?

Mr. Jerry Beades

The law needs to be changed. In terms of what law needs to be changed, however, does one need to tear up the ECB? This is all a matter of policy. We do not own our Central Bank anymore; it is actually owned by the ECB. This is what came out in the court case with the governors. It is absolutely astonishing what we found out in that case. How does one go about change? The Irish Governor has no powers even to answer some of the questions the Senator is asking. I am 11 years into this trip with Friends of Banking Ireland, as I describe it, but I am getting further away from getting answers to questions. The model is so broken I just do not know where one would start.

Did Mr. Beades say the Central Bank needs more powers or is it not using the powers it has?

Mr. Jerry Beades

I believe it needs more powers but-----

It would say otherwise. We asked its representatives specifically whether it needed more powers but they did not seem to believe so.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

Can I throw my twopence-ha'penny worth into this debate? The last thing we want is Central Bank power. We have seen how it has operated in the past ten years, never mind before that. I would object utterly to more power. I had a disc for everybody in the audience but I left it in the car. Mr. Richard Werner made a presentation here last April. It is absolutely essential viewing for everybody over 15 years of age. Mr. Werner explained the role of central banks. I plead with members who have not watched the presentation to take an hour and 20 minutes to do so and then watch it again. I have watched it several times. Mr. Seamus Maye, my ally here, if given a few minutes, will give the committee a few ideas as to where the competition issues arise. It is crystal clear that the Central Bank has no interest in anything other than squeezing the little people. It has no interest whatsoever in regulating the banking industry.

I need to move on to ask about the vulture funds. What could be done by us to regulate them a little more? I refer in particular to the regulation of the owner rather than the middleman. Would this make a difference?

Mr. Jerry Beades

The owners have to be regulated. These are the people who own the loans and call the shots. What seems to have happened is that the owners have appointed agencies to administer the loans. The agencies are only pawns and have no say. They inspect the properties and report back and then they are told to close them down and send in a security man, for example. When we get into confrontation with them, they tell us they are not the owners of the loans. Sharp regulation is needed.

An organisation that is following all the activities of the vulture funds circulated among the members of the committee various papers, including "Towards Justice Centred Debt Solutions: An overview of the debt crisis in Argentina with recommendations for Ireland". The agency, called Debt and Development Coalition Ireland, is American and we stumbled on it by accident. It has a document entitled "From Puerto Rico to the Dublin Docklands" and another on corporate tax secrecy and Apple, which is very interesting.

The organisation pointed out to us at a meeting how a vulture fund bought the debt of a mine in Africa. The vulture fund just depopulated the whole village beside the mine and got away with doing so because it was in Africa. As someone said to me in Mayo, the vulture funds intend to depopulate every rural village in the west of Ireland. That is how serious the situation is. This is a humanitarian crisis and is not just a housing crisis and evictions. We need legislative reform. The problem is so vast that it is difficult to know where to start.

Does Mr. Beades concur with the narrative that vulture funds, although hard-nosed, are almost better than banks for cutting a deal?

Mr. Jerry Beades

I have listened to some of the people who attended committees or participated in television programmes talk about cutting deals. The banks did not cut deals because somebody had to make a decision. Let us say a bank had a €10 million loan and something worth €100,000 so somebody had to sign off because the loan book had to be reduced by a value of €10 million. Nobody wanted to make such decisions in banks. That is what the bank problem was. What is happening with these guys now is that they are coming in and looking around. Nobody can access credit so people try to cut deals, they cut a deal but owe a couple of million of euro and the vulture fund says, "Right, give us half a million". Where is that person going to get half a million euro? The next thing is a receiver is called in and the person or persons are put out of the house.

We need a model where people can access help. If we had the public banking scenario then we would have had banking to lend to people to buy them out of debt but that was if it was left to an Irish situation. Mr. John Moran was excited about bringing in vulture funds, which was scandalous. When the history books are written on this matter, Oliver Cromwell and John Moran will be on a par because that is how serious the situation is.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Trying to regulate the vulture funds is like trying to close the gate after the horse has bolted. We are where we are and the vulture funds own huge tracts of properties. Why can the Government not conduct a compulsory purchase of these properties? It should be done at the price paid or at a 10% discount. My goodness, it would be easy to give the vulture funds a 10% or 20% discount because they bought the properties for nothing in the first place. Give them a little profit, let them get the hell out of here and then rent the properties back to the people or let the people who lost them in the first place repurchase the properties at the knockdown price, not at the 100% price that the vulture funds want to extract. My solution may be simplistic but it is a solution because trying to rein in the vulture funds at this stage would be a waste of time. Unfortunately, the damage has been done. The Government should bring in legislation now that would impose a compulsory purchase order on all of these properties. The vulture funds want to leave Ireland. They do not want to be here as they have conducted their business. They want a quick profit and out. Let the Government facilitate the vulture funds by letting them leave and give the properties back to the people at the same price that it gave the properties to the vulture funds. It should rent them or introduce a buy-to-let or lease scheme for the people who are homeless. Can the Government note equate the homelessness problem with the vulture funds that have turfed people out of their homes? Is there no joined up thinking to tackle the problem?

Ms Lavin has made a sensible suggestion, which should have been implemented in the first place.

Ms Jackie Lavin

I know but it can still be done.

I do not feel confident that it will be done even though it is the right way forward. One thousand homes were offered for takeover but the uptake by the Government and local authorities was minuscule.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Sure but-----

Joined-up thinking is needed to tackle the homelessness issue.

Does the Senator have more questions?

No. I thank all of the witnesses for their presentations and answers.

I wish to raise a number of points with Mr. Beades. Legislation provides that vulture funds must have an agent operating in Ireland and it is the agent who deals with the holder of the loan. I have spoken to customers of Ulster Bank, who were similarly in the GRG group. Some of them have told me that they were directly dealt with by the vulture fund and not by the agent at all. Has Friends of Banking Ireland experienced or has it knowledge of cases in which vulture funds that have not been regulated in Ireland have gone directly to the customer on issues?

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes.

They would have an agent in place.

Mr. Jerry Beades

In terms of vulture funds in the UK that are supposed to be regulated, I have seen a legal opinion on a court case in recent days where vulture funds operated illegally. UK regulations require vulture funds to have a licence but the vulture funds operate in the UK yet conduct deals here. They operate illegally in the UK and operate in Ireland.

I want to discuss practicalities.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes.

Are vulture funds that have not been regulated in Ireland contacting customers directly and not going through the agent? Does Mr. Beades and his organisation have experience and knowledge of that happening?

Mr. Jerry Beades

The legal document that I saw yesterday sets that out. I can supply it to the Senator.

Does Mr. Beades and his organisation know people to whom this has happened? The agent is supposed to be the person that a holder of the loan or borrower deals with, not the vulture fund. Does Mr. Beades know of instances where borrowers have received phone calls and correspondence directly from the vulture funds?

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes. People receive phone calls but do not know who has made the call a lot of the times.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

The Senator's question is irrelevant.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

It is irrelevant.

My question is relevant from a regulation viewpoint. If the legislation is designed so that the control and operation of the loan with the borrower in Ireland is via an agent, who is regulated for under legislation, but in fact the vulture fund is contacting the person------

Mr. Jerry Beades

Even if the vulture funds are regulated they do what they like.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

They should not be here in the first place.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Beside whether they are here or not, there are persistent phone calls and one does not know who is making the calls. When the person has a Scottish accent one assumes that a person in Scotland has made the call. It is wild west behaviour. The vulture funds do not care about regulation. They have bought a property for 10% of its original price and want a quick return by identifying someone who can find money.

I know an individual who was an Ulster Bank customer and had his fund sold on even though he had a performing loan. He has been lucky enough to refinance out. He told me that he received phone calls from people who threatened to take his family home. Has Friends of Banking Ireland experienced such a situation?

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes. We hear these stories but we do not know whether they are UK-based. The legal document that I saw yesterday was a legal opinion for a court case. The document clearly outlined that the vulture funds are in breach of UK regulation and operate in Ireland. Yesterday was the first time that I saw the case on paper. I can forward the document to the committee.

Does Mr. Beades have categorical evidence that the vulture funds have contacted people directly and have bypassed the agent in Ireland?

Mr. Jerry Beades

We do not know who the agent is. People have said on media, and the Senator will have seen the reports, that they have received letters that have a box number for the address and that the person they must deal with keeps changing on a weekly basis. One is not dealing with a normal financial institution.

I have a question for Ms Lavin. On 1 December the Ulster Bank attended this committee.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

On that occasion Mr. Andrew Blair said that the GRG group was in place well prior to the crash. Is that the case?

Ms Jackie Lavin

That is right. He also said that it was still in existence.

Ms Jackie Lavin

As far as I know, the group has been disbanded. I certainly had no experience of it.

When was the company transferred to the GRG group?

Ms Jackie Lavin

In October 2011 we were transferred into GRG and our receiver was appointed in October 2012. We were less than a year in GRG.

Did the company have a performing loan?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, a performing loan.

Technically, in documentation, was the property worth less than 70% or 80% of the loan value?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Not at all. It was worth three times the amount of the loan.

What specific conditions were used to appoint a receiver?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It was a cashflow problem. 2009 was a particularly bad year for the motor business. From a high turnover of more than €200 million, the value was probably reduced down. Business was contracting at the time.

To clarify, was the company transferred to the GRG group in 2011?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

In your case, Ms Lavin, is it correct that the loans were not sold on to a vulture fund?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No. The loans were not sold on at that time.

A receiver was appointed. Were the loans then sold on to a vulture fund?

Ms Jackie Lavin

The remainder of our loans were sold on.

Ms Jackie Lavin

The loans were sold on in early 2015.

Is Ms Lavin at liberty to disclose the name of the vulture fund?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Again, we did not know. A special purpose vehicle was set up for the purchase of the loans called "seekandview". When we investigated further, we found that they were part of Cerberus. We did not know that.

Effectively, the loans were owned by Cerberus.

Ms Jackie Lavin

We were not told.

Who were Ms Lavin and Mr. Cullen dealing with in Ireland as the agent for Cerberus?

Ms Jackie Lavin

We have had letters from Capita, but I have refused to engage with them.

Okay, in terms of their dealings with Cerberus, what contact have Mr. Cullen and Ms Lavin had from them?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Just letters.

Were there no phone calls?

Ms Jackie Lavin

There were no phone calls.

How severe has that correspondence been?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It has been constant. Let me explain about our properties. The properties that were ready to be sold off, the easy sells which were wrapped in a big red bow and ready to go were sold immediately. Of the debt of €10.5 million, €8.1 million was got back fairly quickly because of-----

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes. Deals were done. We tried to buy some of the properties back, but we were denied that opportunity. We were completely stonewalled. We were told they were sold, but some of them were still empty three years later. We subsequently found that a person was given a deal of right of first refusal, so that property was able to be held by that individual for a small amount of money.

Am I correct that within a year of going into the GRG group-----

Ms Jackie Lavin

GRG started immediately to put in a shadow director and to monitor the cash and take charge of the cheque book. We were only allowed to buy cars that GRG decided we could buy.

Were they entitled under the terms of the loan to appoint a shadow director?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No.

How did GRG legally enforce it?

Ms Jackie Lavin

He was not appointed legally. He just played the part.

Did he attend board meetings?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No.

Did he take control of the cheque book?

Ms Jackie Lavin

He did not take control of the actual cheque book but each cheque that had to be written had to be run by him first, which is basically the same thing.

Okay. Within a year, had some €8 million debt been recovered by the bank?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, absolutely.

In the region of €2 million debt was transferred to Cerberus.

Ms Jackie Lavin

It is roughly about that figure but Cerberus is now saying we owe them €5 million.

Ms Jackie Lavin

The company does not give out a statement. We have no access to any of our company documentation. They even took our backup server. We have no access to anything in respect of the company, such as statements. They have not given us any statements whatsoever. We did a search through an accountancy firm, who seemed to know somebody who knew somebody, who went in and tried to get our accounts.

Does Ms Lavin expect that Cerberus will appoint a receiver or a liquidator at this point? Are the properties functioning businesses or are they stand-alone empty vacant properties at this point?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Some of them are derelict because they were allowed to go derelict. The receiver did not insure them, they were not maintained. Some are now derelict and are practically worth nothing.

What about the impact on your life and that of Mr. Cullen? I note that Mr. Cullen lost his brother. I presume that the business ran into hard weather from 2008-2009 onwards? Will Ms Lavin describe the effect this experience has had on them in terms of their personal life and that of their employees?

Ms Jackie Lavin

We had a very successful, viable company. We had prime sites all over the country, nothing was half built or half finished. Our loan-to-value ratio had been reduced from seven times the value of the loan because the value of the properties had been written down to about three times the value of the loan. We had a pragmatic view also in that the properties that were not producing the level of return we required were for sale at the time. We were doing the right thing in terms of getting as much cash in as we possibly could to pay off the loans. We were doing all of that. There was no need whatsoever to transfer our loans. It was not as if we were not engaging with the bank. We were engaging with the bank on a daily basis and they knew everything that was going on. The bank encouraged us to take the buyout from our main franchise in order to get the cash. The bank was in to grab the cash at all times, without any thought of the cost to the company. As soon as the company divested itself of its main franchise and had others to come in instead, and that was the whole purpose of giving up the main franchise, the bank then shut down shop and did not allow the company to carry on business any more.

To answer the Senator's question on the impact of this on us as people, from 2012 it was shock tactics. One minute one was in business and the next minute, one literally had nothing. They took absolutely everything - mobile phones, computers and the pens from the desk. They shut everything down.

We never had an experience of a receivership and we were in shock. We were naive and stupid. If we knew then what we know now, it would never have happened. That is another story.

With due respect, I do not think that Jackie Lavin and Bill Cullen would be regarded as naive.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Believe me, Senator, in terms of receivership and having the rug pulled out from under your business, we were extremely naive. If one takes us as being at a certain level of naivety, it can only be that people with less experience in business would be more naive.

How long had the business been customers of Ulster Bank?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Since 1990.

That is the bones of nearly 20 years.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes. We had never defaulted.

The law firm Mason Hayes Curran were appointed by Ulster Bank. Did they interview Ms Lavin?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes. First, I thought it was a good opportunity to participate properly in the inquiry to get some of our documents from the bank. We requested the documents from the bank so that we could say exactly where the loans were and show how the loans were being paid off. That request was totally refused. We went in anyway, because I wanted to see the situation. We told our story to Mason Hayes Curran and from all the complaints they received, they only interviewed five people. They made their findings from the facts they found from five people.

Were Ms Lavin and Mr. Cullen among the five?

Ms Jackie Lavin

We were one.

How does Ms Lavin regard that report?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It is a complete whitewash.

Has the Central Bank been in contact with Ms Lavin and Mr. Cullen regarding the Global Restructuring Group Ireland, GRG?

Ms Jackie Lavin

I received a reply to a letter of complaint that I sent to them.

What was the reply?

Ms Jackie Lavin

The reply was fairly bland, stating that they were engaging with Ulster Bank but that they were not going to make any comments.

Do Ms Lavin and Mr. Cullen welcome the Central Bank getting involved in carrying out an investigation?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It is their job and I think they should do that.

Let me address a question to Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir. I am a great advocate of the credit unions. The credit union is in every town and village. Prior to the crisis, I was in practice, as I am a chartered accountant by training and if the credit union movement had not looked after the SME sector in the previous ten to 12 years, many small businesses would not have survived, particularly in small towns and villages in rural areas. That must be acknowledged. The small businesses would go to their credit union on a Monday morning and get a bank draft for €4,000 or €5,000 and lodge it to their current account because the bank would not provide the money. How many of those are thriving businesses today?

What is the reason the credit union movement could not fill the void for the small SME sector?

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

It would not have a ghost of a chance.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

For the simple reason that at present, the credit unions have 3% of the household market of €150 billion debt. They have €8 billion or thereabouts in excess deposits that they cannot lend for a range of reasons.

In a property market, for example, one of the ways the credit unions want to develop is to get into the mortgage market. I think they would be stone mad, given that houses and property prices are three times what the average salary can justify. It is a black hole for the credit unions.

One of the things the German consultants hammered home to us was the need to bracket the banking business, and they suggested the credit unions stick with what they do, lend in their bracket of €20,000 to €25,000 or thereabouts without being too definitive about it. They could create a new entity that could lend up to approximately €500,000 or €600,000 and another one above that again. There is no comparison between the individual in the bank or credit union who is a risk adviser and has to determine whether somebody should get €10,000 or €5,000 and somebody who wants €480,000. In the next bracket there is a level of expertise, procedures and a range of issues at stake.

We absolutely believe in the credit union movement. The paper we are about to publish will make it abundantly clear. With the stroke of a pen the credit unions could structure the public banks in their own areas. If six or ten credit unions in south Dublin got together, they could establish a new public bank overnight almost. They have everything they require, such as the outlets, offices and funds.

Would ten credit unions coming together have the financial wherewithal to establish a bank?

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

Absolutely. They have the expertise, and if they want more expertise, it is available to us from the SBFIC in Bonn. They offered it to us at cost.

So Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir believes the credit union movement would, dare I say it, set up a-----

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

I am not saying they would-----

I am asking if there is a model that would allow a number of credit unions to go in and if they would have the financial wherewithal to establish such a public entity with the specific purpose of SME lending.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

It does not have to be limited to SME lending, however we would suggest that is the gap in the market that needs to be filled. The potential the credit unions have with their excess deposits is enormous. However, for the credit unions to get into this bigger lending is fraught with danger. While it is not my business to tell them what to do, our research suggests they could double their business. We are talking about setting up the ten banks. The credit unions could double their business, and they would still have only approximately 5% or 6% of the household market. If the ten community banks we are talking about ended up with approximately 3% of the market each, they would reach only 36% of the market. In the German system, 70% of the system is owned by the public. There is a need for another layer of two or three national public banks to deliver in this bracket.

I welcome the three groups. What advantage does Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir see in setting up this type of bank? A number of years ago, when some new banks were coming into the country, I spoke in the Seanad and said in Castlebar alone there were 14 or 15 outlets where one could get money. Although people said it was good for competition, I did not take that view. I could not see how a small town such as Castlebar could support 14 or 15 places where people could get money. This is replicated throughout the country. What is the advantage in this type of bank that is not already catered for by the three pillar banks and the credit unions?

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

Apart from anything else, the ISME figures make it very clear that anybody who wants an amount of money smaller than €500,000 is having serious difficulty getting it. Startups and small businesses want supervised credit. A small businessperson does not want it lorried out to him or her because his or her father has a house or a farm. They want credit supervised by people who know what they are talking about and who can give proper guidance and supervision. This does not exist in any make, shape or form. If people have the collateral, the banks will give them whatever they want, and it does not matter how good their business plans are. That is the only interest they have in it.

Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir said there would be four regional organisations for the bigger loans. How could they give this expert advice to the whole region from one office?

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

For the number of people seeking loans between €500,000 to €10 million, they would need only two offices in the country. How do SPFIC, Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, and the others organise? The big sector is from approximately €20,000 to €500,000. Make no mistake, the credit unions have saved Ireland. They have saved the communities across the country.

I support Deputies Michael McGrath and Pearse Doherty in asking Mr. Beades to send in a submission on receiverships and how they operate. Does he find the same with examinerships?

Mr. Jerry Beades

My general view is that examinerships seem to be more organised. The examinership process can be done in the Circuit Court, which is a cheaper forum. Generally it is a company that goes for examinership. It might be forced by a bank or by circumstances. The company must prepare a business plan and get outside auditors to do a report. The examinership area does not seem to be giving trouble.

In some examinerships, the business can be sold on.

Mr. Jerry Beades

The business can be sold on. We have a case of a bakery in Cork in which the bread runs were sold on and a big row is going on. I agree, when the businesses are sold on there can be problems. In general, it is not coming on the radar regularly.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Examinership is a very costly process for a company, particularly a small company, to go through. One of the reasons for which Glencullen could not go to examinership was that we were told it would cost €100,000. On another property we went through examinership and I know exactly what the Senator is talking about. One has to get a forensic accountant to do the business plan, one has to have an investor and one has to pay approximately €12,000 for a junior and senior counsel to present it in the High Court. When one's business has been taken, one does not have access to that kind of money. Most companies do not, particularly if one has propped up one's company during the bad times, which we had done to the tune of €20 million of our own money. One has no money left to do examinership. This has to do with access to justice. There is no access to justice for people whose companies have been pulled. They do not have the money to access justice.

So there should be a cheaper form of examinership.

Mr. Jerry Beades

One does not have to go to the High Court. The big problem with the High Court is that the fees are off the wall. The legislation for the Circuit Court examinership is through and, as far as I know, they are up and running. The examinerships we have seen have been pre-packaged examinerships in which some of the English chains have wanted to get out of leases in shopping centres. Under legislation, companies that go through examinership can dump their landlords. There have been a number of large examinerships with some of the large retail chains going through the process. If it were available to the ordinary householders to dump their mortgages, as has been allowed for the examinerships, it would be great. I have been in the High Court when one of these was going on. I listened to a High Court judge ranting on and writing down leases of €250,000 per year to €50,000, and authorising them. Two hours beforehand, the same judge was evicting companies and giving judgments. It is two different worlds.

One can consider what is going on in Clerys and all the issues surrounding it. Again, it is a world on its own outside the comprehension of the ordinary individual. I had my first receivers appointed in 2010 by ACC Bank and I understand exactly what Ms Lavin is saying. I was naive and I am wiser now. It turns out the receiver of my property was wrongly appointed in the first place and he sold a property worth €11 million for €400,000. I am now thinking of taking proceedings against him because I have discovered it was fraud. One is wiser after the event than one would be the day those people walk into the office.

The witness indicates Ulster Bank has many different entities. Is a licence required for each entity or does one banking licence cover it?

Mr. Jerry Beades

These are the questions we never got answered. Every entity should have a banking licence and be registered. One should be able to go to the Central Bank website and see that. I could give an example involving AIB. We found 27 entities and the joke among some of the groups was that when somebody came, they would ask from which bank they came. Although they would say it was a branch, we could ask which legal entity of Ulster Bank was involved, as there were so many of them. Somebody involved with AIB had receivers appointed and I asked which AIB entity was involved. He asked me what I meant. He came back to me two days later and I ended up going to the companies office and discovering AIB Finance and Leasing and I think AIB Leasing and Finance. There were five or six leasing divisions in AIB that the ordinary person could see from the headed notepaper. The man discovered he had vehicles repossessed by the wrong division of AIB. That issue is now in court. All these banks were playing ducks and drakes with tax evasion and everything else. They were lending money out with one company but if they had more profits in another company, they could write it off and bring money back. The Central Bank is not regulating any of it.

The Central Bank is falling down with this.

Mr. Jerry Beades

It is falling down completely in this area. When we go down to the courts, the judge's attitude is "so what", if it is the Bank of Ireland private bank or the Bank of Ireland board and governors, as people owe the money. The Judiciary has made a right farce of the legal entities going before the judges. There are judgments that put a coach and four through company law.

Is the legislation strong enough?

Mr. Jerry Beades

No. It should be a criminal offence for a bank to misrepresent itself as another entity. It should be the same as if I misrepresented myself with a different company with no limited company liability. The companies office is chasing all the small business people but not the banks.

Ms Lavin said that when the bank came in to her company, its people took everything, including the pension of the 100% shareholder.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

They took his pension in the dash for cash.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

Was that the lump sum?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

It was the value of the pension.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Correct. They took the value of the pension. In another grab quite recently they tried to take his personal account in the bank at Naas. There was something like €5,000 in it. We got a letter to say the bank was closing the account but when he went to get the balance, he was told he could not have it.

Are there not stronger laws around the value of the pension and who owns it, as it is private property? How did the bank get its hands on the lump sum?

Ms Jackie Lavin

The bank argued it was paid by the company and therefore had to go into the company account.

Was that determined in the courts?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No, there has not been a court case relating to that.

He had to sign it over in the dash for cash.

Ms Jackie Lavin

I am not going to give details, if the Senator does not mind, as there could possibly be litigation relating to it. Sorry.

That is fine. With regard to default, valuations are carried out.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

Who carries that out? The bank carried out its own valuations.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

Does the customer have any say at all in the appointment of the person carrying out the valuation?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No.

Could the customer get an alternative valuation? That happened in some NAMA cases when the clients got agreement on who carried out the valuations.

Ms Jackie Lavin

In our case we would have had professionals carry out the evaluations. That is how they would have stood in our books. They would have been written down by professionals on an annual basis depending on how the economy and property market was performing. When a receiver is appointed, it is then too late to re-evaluate the properties. They are in books at a certain price but they do not ask about it beforehand. They do not say "by the way, we are valuing you at X and you have them valued at XX" so we could get an independent valuation. That does not happen. They just come in and smash and grab. That is it.

Ms Lavin stated there were 200 staff affected by the receivership.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

Who paid the redundancies? Did the Exchequer or the business pay that?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It came out of the business. It came from property sales, etc., that happened afterwards. There was sufficient money from the property sales. Even in the week in which we were put into receivership, we completed two sales. One was a property in Wicklow and we had another property in Ennis. Sales had been completed and there was cash coming into the company all the time.

Ms Lavin wrote to the Central Bank and the Financial Services Ombudsman.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

She was not happy with the responses she got from either.

Ms Jackie Lavin

I got no reply from the Financial Services Ombudsman.

There was no reply.

Ms Jackie Lavin

There was none. I got a reply from the Central Bank but it was non-committal and totally bland. It indicated it had nothing to do with the issue.

I thank the delegations for their comprehensive presentations and particularly Ms Lavin for her personal story of how such a successful business was treated by Ulster Bank during the downturn and subsequently. If the story was on television or a movie, one would wonder how it could happen. It would be a film many people would like to watch. Unfortunately, it was very harrowing for Ms Lavin. I accept that Ms Lavin and her partner were both very accomplished business people and very involved over many years but I presume this was something they never expected to happen. They were flying high, had plenty of business and were on television. Did the shadow director indicate the company was in receivership immediately or did he arrive way before the receivership was even contemplated, walking into the building and saying he was in charge?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No, he was appointed at the time we were dealing with Ulster Bank Global Restructuring Group, GRG. He was not officially appointed and the banks never put anything in writing.

He was not an official shadow director.

Ms Jackie Lavin

No.

He came in and all of a sudden he had his feet under a desk and was involved.

Ms Jackie Lavin

He was in charge, basically. Our financial controller just worked with him and through him at all times.

Initially he was coming in to get the company through the 2008 and 2009 period. There had been a massive downturn in car sales and I presume the company had large enough overheads, with many obligations and staff. The cash was not coming in. Was the company in a position at that point where repayments that would have been falling due could not be met? Was that the way the bank manoeuvred him?

Ms Jackie Lavin

No. We were put into GRG at the end of 2012, which was basically the end of the recession.

So the company had gone through 2008 to 2011 without GRG or any help. It met all the payments through that time on time and never defaulted or had a missed or late payment.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Correct. We had worked our way through the recession and it was almost over. We were kind of at the end of it. We were put into GRG in October 2011 and we were taken by the receiver in October 2012. We had survived the majority of the recession, again, by prudent business.

In 2010, GRG dragged in a whole lot of other properties as cover for itself but those properties did not form part of the original loans.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes. In terms of the facility letter negotiated for 2012, to ensure that it was covered, it pulled every property owned by the company and all the cash it had.

Did it try to drag in family homes, cars and so on?

Ms Jackie Lavin

It pulled in all the cars but not the family home because I would have an entitlement to the family home. I had not signed any of its documents and I do not owe it anything. We had survived the recession and had put a lot of our money into the business.

The sum of €20 million is referenced in the report.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, €20 million had been put in and so we were the biggest creditor in the company. We had kept the company afloat throughout all of that period. The last thing we expected was that a receiver would be appointed.

Was the €20 million a relatively recent injection or was it a €20 million injection historically over many years in terms of retained reserves and so on?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Some of it was from 2007 when we sold the distributorship. The cash lump sum we achieved at that stage was put back into the company.

A lot of personal money was put in to shore up the company.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Everything was put in.

GRG continued to ask for more money. That money was sitting in group bank accounts of the entity that the GRG group was controlling-----

Ms Jackie Lavin

Correct.

-----through a particular individual. Was that individual there on a full-time basis?

Ms Jackie Lavin

He was never physically there but he was on the phone to us throughout the day every day. It was his main job. He was on to us constantly such that our financial controller only dealt directly with him and had no time to do any work related to the company.

He did not sign the cheques physically, but a transfer would not have been processed by the bank without his say so.

Ms Jackie Lavin

They would not have passed it unless he had sanctioned it.

I apologise for having to go over some of this stuff but it is important we go through it. The company's overdraft was then reduced and its operational capacity was massively reduced. Ms Lavin referenced the phrase "if the company has not de-funded we can engineer one", which is quite frightening. Looking back on it - I am sure this was not Ms Lavin's perception at the time - they never wanted the business to succeed. They wanted to get in, get the assets, strip them and sell them. In terms of what Ms Lavin had to say, and the way she said it, it would suggest there were friends of friends who were lined up to strip the assets and pick off what they wanted and so on. Reference is made in the report to the property division which amassed assets worth €3.3 billion during the crisis. Is Ms Lavin saying that one part of Ulster Bank stripped its customers of their assets and another part of it absorbed them?

Ms Jackie Lavin

That is what happened in RBS in the UK. Ms Loveday can attest to that.

I know that Ms Lavin's company did not have assets worth €3.3 billion.

Ms Jackie Lavin

No.

On a global basis, RBS, and Ulster Bank being a part of it, engineered situations where it defrauded, although I accept that "defrauded" might not be the right word, or rather made it so difficult for its customers to survive that it was able to take their assets from them and transfer them to a different division of its own bank-----

Ms Jackie Lavin

Which also profited.

-----to do with what it liked, at a profit.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes. There was a double profit.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

It was standard practice.

Was it standard practice historically?

Ms Alison Loveday

It is well-established practice.

In RBS at this point. It was not well-established banking practice, that we are aware of, historically.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Perhaps I could respond to that question. We attended the meeting in Belfast. That was the day when I became alarmed. It was the first occasion I had heard of GRG. At that meeting many people asked why a part of RBS had purchased their assets. Mr. Tomlinson's explanation was astonishing. When the question was asked as to where all this had happened, we were told it happened in a building in London. People were told their assets had been sold to another side of the house. It was explained that there was a glass partition down the middle of an office and that there was a set of staff in the inside section to whom people on the other side of the wall would offer assets for sale. In other words, they were trading the assets with staff on the other side of the glass partition. They would offer the assets for, say, €2 million or €5 million, a price would be agreed and the assets purchased. There are allegations that some of these assets ended up in Ulster Bank executives' pension funds. It is astonishing stuff.

This is a bank that was substantially under the control of the UK taxpayer at the time.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes. It has been fined massively in the UK. There was a repeat here of what happened in the UK. As explained by Ms Lavin, I have stayed in the background on this issue because I have so much more going on. I know exactly what is going on. I inquired about how I had ended up in GRG. The bank employee whom I dealt with did nothing wrong. I want to make that clear. He had been transferred from the office in George's Quay to GRG in College Green and his customers went with him to GRG. He did not know anything about what was going on. I filled him in on what we had learned in Belfast. When I asked him how I had ended up in GRG in College Green, his response was that when he was transferred, so too were all of his customers, but none of those customers was ever written to and told this was happening.

GRG was portrayed to us as the leftovers of the bad loans that were not performing. It was the stuff Ulster Bank wanted to rid itself of. The committee has had other evidence given to it privately of hotels and other businesses that were performing well in terms of their existing loans and agreements with the banks but ended up in GRG which was then sold on to a vulture fund, following which their relationship was very different from their historic relationship and they could not build or even seek planning permission for extensions and so on, all of this being engineered to get them out and to sell off the property at a quick profit. That has been the experience not only of the witnesses here today but of other people.

Am I correct that Ms Lavin's company had never missed a loan repayment or defaulted on any loan and that GRG just stepped in and did everything it could to make their lives difficult in the hope that eventually the company would crash and burn?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Correct. Senator Horkan is right in that they only took on the people who had value in their properties. They were not interested in people who had no chance of survival because they could not get any money out of them.

We have heard that approximately 5% of the 2,100 survived within Ulster Bank. In other words, only 5% reverted back to Ulster Bank.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes.

Of the 95% that did not revert back, did any survive with a vulture fund or did they all end up losing everything?

Ms Jackie Lavin

They are in the same space that I and many of my colleagues are in, namely, they are trying to muddle through the situation. They are still trying to find out what as a company they owe, what has been sold and so on. I only knew from the newspapers what they had sold.

Are all the businesses that they took from Ms Lavin no longer operational? Are the garages, hotels and so on closed or have they been sold on and are they operational?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Most of the prime properties have been sold on to private individuals and are probably still operational in some capacity.

The physical properties might exist but the business is gone.

Ms Jackie Lavin

In terms of the dealerships, some were taken by competitors and they continue to trade in another entity.

Under a different brand.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, which had been our business model going forward.

The plan was to get a different franchise and continue on.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Correct, which we had acquired.

It is stated in the report that Ms Lavin sold a main franchise for €1.6 million, in respect of which the Revenue was due €650,000 but GRG did not pay that money to Revenue.

Ms Jackie Lavin

That is correct.

In that regard it is further stated in the report that this was used as a tool to make the Revenue appoint a receiver. In other words, GRG could not do it but it made the business's relationship with Revenue so difficult that Revenue appointed a receiver and that suited GRG.

Ms Jackie Lavin

It now appears that was its plan.

Does Ms Lavin know if the €650,000 was ever paid to Revenue?

Ms Jackie Lavin

I doubt it was ever paid.

Ms Lavin is saying that Ulster Bank, through its GRG manager, agreed to pay €650,000 to Revenue.

It more or less told her that she had to take the buyout in respect of the €1.6 million. She knew that out of that, she had an obligation to pay it to Revenue and that payment was never made.

Ms Jackie Lavin

Correct.

So Revenue is down €650,000 and, ultimately, the Irish State is down €650,000. It might be small money in the context of all the figures we are talking about it is lot of money to most people.

Ms Jackie Lavin

It is very relevant.

Most people would not be in a position where they owe that kind of money and do not want to pay it. On a personal level, the loss of Bill Cullen's brother is hugely traumatic and a situation like this contributed massively to the whole thing. It has been very public. Bill Cullen has gone from very little to so much and back again. It is horrific. I thank Ms Lavin for what she has done.

I have a few questions for Mr. Beades. I thank him for his testimony. He referred to the former Secretary General of the Department of Finance and made a fairly stark comparison between him and Cromwell, a figure for whom most people in Ireland would not have great regard.

Not in Kilkenny.

Not in most places. Even if the English might think he was great, most of us have a jaundiced view of his existence. Mr. Beades compared John Moran to Cromwell and said that Mr. Moran was thrilled to welcome the vulture funds, as outlined in the documentary. Can Mr. Beades elaborate on that?

Mr. Jerry Beades

Mr. Moran's comments were documented in the RTE programme and well reported. I used the piece in my introduction. Somebody made a decision in the summer of 2014 when the vulture funds were brought in. That was the summer that Allsops and the auctioneers, who were selling disputed properties, had ground to a halt. There were meetings in the Department of Finance. Deputy Pearse Doherty referred to 65 meetings involving the Minister and all these vulture funds yet the Minister met none of the people dealing with housing or evictions. Apparently, this plan was hatched under John Moran. He had previous experience in banking in New York and knew this business model that had travelled from the US to South America and around the world so he was the architect of this plan. The rest is history. The question is whether there were other alternatives. We have heard from Jim Miller's group and how alternative public banking could have got money to allow people to buy back their properties from the mainstream banks so there was a model that was the opposite of it.

Mr. Beades spoke about tracker mortgages. The situation around tracker mortgages is a scandal but Mr. Beades is basically saying that this is the big scandal. In other words, that the situation around tracker mortgages is not of the same order as this scandal and that this scandal is far worse and that there are far bigger issues involved than is even the case with tracker mortgages.

Mr. Jerry Beades

The hedge funds are going to wipe out this country. People in middle-class Ireland are being evicted from their homes in large numbers. In respect of the figure of 500,000, the mortgage figures-----

Mr. Beades talks about large numbers. Could he elaborate?

Mr. Jerry Beades

In respect of the 100,000 mortgages they talk about that are in arrears - sometimes it goes to 150,000 - when the stuff is sold to the hedge funds, it vanishes off the system so that turns up as mortgages that are resolved.

What does Mr. Beades expect to see in 2017 and 2018 In terms of evictions and repossessions?

Mr. Jerry Beades

In respect of the numbers in the court system, something of the order of 14,000 Circuit Court eviction notices are affected by this new courts Bill. It is all over the place. Legislation is being put in place. There are still cases before the Supreme Court but 14,000 repossession orders alone are sitting in the system never mind the other ones that are ongoing. The numbers could run into hundreds of thousands if the hedge funds decide that they will be given a clear run.

I apologise as I was short of time. I thank Mr. Beades.

The Senator was not short of time. He had plenty of time, as does everybody else.

I could use another 20 minutes.

Senator Horkan referred to Ms Lavin's submission as a personal story. Senator Kieran O'Donnell questioned whether she was naïve. We must understand that anyone in business who has come across this issue since 2008 could tell a similar story. People are not in business to go broke; they are in business to be successful. It was a new experience for businesses, big and small, when they were hassled and muscled by the banks from 2008 onwards. That is what is missing in this piece. If one is a developer, it is a bad word. If one is in business, one is are supposed to be able to look after oneself but the banks did not look after businesses. In respect of the strong arm felt by Ms Lavin, I have heard that story on numerous occasions. I have heard on it in respect of what happened to families. I sympathise with Ms Lavin regarding the death of Aidan Cullen. There are similar stories everywhere and that is what this committee must grapple with and understand. Much of the devastation in family homes and businesses was caused by the banks. While they covered their own backsides as quickly as they could, they inflicted terrible pain and suffering on those with whom they were dealing. It was brave of Ms Lavin to come forward - I know she has been on other public forums - to explain this matter and put it in context so that other families and SMEs will see that although their figures might be different, their stories and their treatment are the same. It is not just about GRG. It is right across the banking sector. Mr. Beades said that when the history of this is written, it will put us all to shame, particularly in this House, where we had the opportunity to introduce legislation and did not do so and where we had the opportunity to insist that the existing legislation under the remit of the Central Bank was not forced into act and did not do so. That is where we have fallen down.

The question arising from Ms Lavin's contribution concerns where we were go from here. We have agreed as a committee that on a quarterly basis, we would meet with the Central Bank and put all these issues and other issues of concern to us on the agenda. I assure the witnesses that, as Chairman of this committee and with the support of members, I will fulfil that agenda and keep this on the agenda along with the other matters for as long as possible until we see action. In her presentation, Ms Lavin said that Ulster Bank lied, which is pretty strong language, but we should do what they are now doing in the US and call it like it is. If that is the case, Ms Lavin has been asked to point it out to us. We would like to see it and will take it with the Central Bank. Ulster Bank has not written to Ms Lavin, as it committed to do, which I find astonishing, particularly in light of the hearings we have had and the request that it would engage directly with her in this manner. We will have to remind it of the transcript that exists of the commitment that was made. The committee will support me in asking the clerk to write again to Ulster Bank to determine what it will do about the matter.

I am clear in my mind that the Central Bank said that it would meet Ms Lavin's group and was interested in hearing from it. I hope she will take up that invitation. It will help us in our deliberations and actions at future meetings in respect of commentary and so on. In her submission, Ms Lavin said that the John Mann, MP, has asked the Serious Fraud Office in Britain to open an urgent investigation into RBS.

Does she think something similar should be done in Ireland?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Yes, absolutely.

Has the Central Bank committed to anything in the course of its interaction with her group?

Ms Jackie Lavin

Not that I am aware of.

We will take up the contents of her submission with Ulster Bank and the Central Bank.

Mr. Beades said proposals were put by the then Minister for Finance to have a 30% to 50% haircut on mortgage debt and that this was to be in parallel with the bank bailout. Mr. Beades also said there were documents relating to this and that they could be viewed online. Can he copy them to the committee? I would like to see their content.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes, I will. There is a full set of 37 documents. I attended the banking inquiry on a number of occasions and some of them appeared on the screens on either side, although one could not take photographs of them. The substantial document concerned the haircut of between 30% and 50% on residential and commercial mortgage loans.

Can Mr. Beades tell the clerk how we can download these documents so that the committee can have this information?

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes. We have a set already printed off and I can leave it with the Chairman if he would like.

I thank Mr. Beades. I am also interested in the magazine that covers the issue of debt and vulture funds so it would be good to have that too.

Mr. Jerry Beades

That is fine.

Some of the vulture funds have written to say it is not convenient to come in but the majority have not replied to us. I find it unacceptable that a group of vulture funds handling considerable property portfolios in this State do not feel obliged to come before the committee. We agreed, in private session, to pursue this matter as robustly as possible in order to ensure that they come before us or engage with us in an open and transparent way, as they do privately with Ministers and the Department of Finance. The citizens of this State deserve at least that much from them. Does Mr. Beades have any idea of the type of deals that are done with these vulture funds? How much of the overall debt that they buy is generally knocked off?

Mr. Jerry Beades

It varies. I know of one case where €1 million or €2 million was owed and €6,000 was the figure. The man in question has nothing but €6,000 was offered to enable them to walk away and it was accepted. I talked to private people who have bought this debt, including some from NAMA. They got portfolios for nothing because they were seen as having no value. In one instance involving NAMA, land sold for €1 million has now been rezoned by a county council and is worth €1 million per acre, resulting in a loss to the State of some €100 million. The committee should be tracking this land going forward. NAMA was set up to sweat these assets for 20 years but, in the rush by the Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, to be the good boy and close down NAMA before the most recent election, massive decisions were made to dispose of assets at absolutely ridiculous values, meaning that land is being rezoned at enormous sums.

How does this relate to the vulture funds?

Mr. Jerry Beades

The vulture funds are the same. They take €5 for something which they got for nothing because the banks had written it off and people are settling for 10% or 20% but there is no standard amount.

There are, however, massive write-downs.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Yes, there are massive write-downs.

Mr. Séamas Ó Muilleaneoir

My understanding is that the average write-down across the board is 17%. In the individual settlements we have seen, the values were very low.

Ms Lavin said the vulture funds do not write to or engage with people and send no statements.

Ms Jackie Lavin

We do not have one single piece of paper to do with any of our accounts, or any bank statements.

They took over your affairs and tore your lives apart.

Ms Jackie Lavin

We had to find out where the loans were. We had to carry out a serious investigation to find out where the loans were. We went to Capita, which said it did not have them, and then we went to Fitzwilliam Finance and it said it did not have them. It does not know what it has. Eventually they were located but we had been getting letters on a constant basis from Capita. I refused to engage with Capita as I do not have any contract with it.

Mr. Jerry Beades

Somebody wanted to buy a property in Kildare that had been lying idle for five years and they bid €800,000 to the auctioneer but, four months later, the property appeared at Allsops and was sold for €400,000. The person to whom the €800,000 was offered did not seem to know of the sale so I told him.

In the context of repossessions, what chance does the individual have against the State in the context of appearing before the Circuit Court?

Mr. Jerry Beades

Very little. There is a big debate among people on this side of the issue over what has happened. The Government rushed through a Bill before Christmas, the Courts Act, to plug a gap that we created by defending ourselves and taking cases all the way to the High Court as lay litigants. We raised €10,000 on one occasion to hire barristers at the last minute and the Court of Appeal ruled that the Circuit Court was acting unconstitutionally. The case to which I refer is still travelling through the courts and has gone to the Supreme Court. However, the Government has passed legislation to circumvent this so regardless of whether the case is won in the Supreme Court, people can still be evicted from their homes.

That legislation deals with a change in jurisdiction.

Mr. Jerry Beades

That was a cover for creating the situation whereby evictions can be proceeded with in the Circuit Court. The action had the effect of stopping the evictions.

It had this effect when jurisdiction was found to be flawed but this has not yet been corrected by legislation.

Mr. Jerry Beades

I understand it was corrected in the Courts Bill but there is a lot of confusion. There was a statement that the Circuit Court was going to proceed because it now had jurisdiction on cases involving up to €3 million. I have not been able to establish that but the Supreme Court sat on Tuesday and there is a statement on the Internet that the court will now fasttrack a hearing of the original case that caused the problem. It is most unusual for the Executive to intervene when a case is still in the courts.

That is why that part of the legislation was not dealt with. It was in the Bill but was not passed. Mr. Beades is saying that the scales are tilted in favour of the banks and the institutions chasing those in debt and that there is no way out for these people.

Mr. Jerry Beades

This is true in the case of summary judgments. We have a process that allows fast-track proceedings in which the banks do not have to produce documentation, evidence of the debt or bank statements. Some of the civil servants have a dreadful attitude when one goes before them. They say, "But you owe the money". Civil servants employed by the State should be more caring.

Some of these registrars are worse than judges. What people want is a full hearing on issues such as overcharging and so on. In many cases, the bank does not even have title, yet judges are rubber-stamping summary judgments and not allowing cases to go to a full hearing. The Master of the High Court has spoken out on the paperwork issue; therefore, I am not the only one who is saying it.

The committee will have to adjourn shortly as members need to attend the Dáil Chamber for a vote. I was anxious to have all of the delegates before the committee this morning. We have met Mr. Ó Muilleaneoir before to discuss the concept of the Public Banking Forum of Ireland, one that I support. I hope something will come out of the paper presented. There is a need for another model of credit for the State and another way to do business. It is now up to us as a committee to consider the exchanges we have had today and present a report on the issues involved to the Minister and to take up the matter on a quarterly basis with the Central Bank. I thank all of the delegates for telling us their stories. I can assure them that they will not become just part of the minutes of a meeting. I hope we will be able to continue to pursue the issue. They are welcome to come back to us at any time with further information or tell us about developments. It is generally considered this issue will form part of the committee's agenda from now on. I understand its next meeting with the Central Bank will take place in April. During that meeting we will take up with it some of the issues raised today.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until 12.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 31 January 2017.
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