We will now deal with No. 7, which is an overview of the Benefacts project. I welcome Ms Patricia Quinn, managing director, and Tom Boland, chairman, of Benefacts.
Benefacts Project: Discussion
Mr. Tom Boland
We are very pleased to be here to tell you about the work of Benefacts and we very much appreciate the opportunity to do so. Benefacts is a not-for-profit organisation established in 2014. Its objective is to transform the transparency of Ireland’s not-for-profit sector. I am the chairman of the board and have been for approximately one year. The board has five other non-executive directors. All the board members serve in a voluntary capacity. The board comprises people with high levels of expertise in the work of non-profit organisations and in public communications, financial reporting, law and philanthropy. Benefacts has a professional staff of 15 reporting to the managing director, Ms Patricia Quinn, who is here with me and will talk to the committee about our work in much more detail.
Benefacts came into being thanks to the vision of Ms Quinn, as founder, but also thanks to a funding partnership between the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Atlantic Philanthropies and The Ireland Funds. Like the Economic and Social Research Institute, whose foundation 50 years ago was co-funded by the Irish Government and private philanthropy, Benefacts is a unique solution to a previously unmet need; in our case, for a dynamic, independent public database with a listing for every non-profit organisation in Ireland.
I will ask Ms Quinn to tell the committee more about our work. We are both very happy to have a discussion and answer questions.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Benefacts is best known to the general public for its free, searchable website, which has listings for every non-profit organisation that is registered with a national authority, be it the Companies Registration Office, CRO, Revenue, the Department of Education and Skills, the Registrar of Friendly, Industrial and Provident Societies, the Charities Regulatory Authority or others.
We follow international precedents in defining non-profits as those organisations that are not part of Government or the private sector. This includes charities, of course, but also tens of thousands of other non-profits as well. Like any other member of the public, we access the data on these entities from the datasets made available by regulators or registrars. We are able to do this thanks to the open data regulations which the Minister spoke to the committee about a few minutes ago and which have been so energetically promoted in Ireland in recent years. This means that as long as there is no particular reason for data held by public authorities to be kept private, it should be made public and in a highly accessible way.
We clean the data which we source from these different public regulatory bodies and add value in a number of ways. In the first instance we clean the data and match up the different numbers and identities, trading names and regulatory features of all non-profits so that they are merged into a single file. We socialise the data, meaning we make it much more readily accessible than would otherwise be the case. For example, a member of the public has to pay the CRO an administrative fee each time he or she wants to access company records. We digitise it, which involves a large manual effort, because we extract governance and financial data from paper files, including the financial statements of more than 9,000 companies, unions, friendly societies and political parties. This makes the data much more readily accessible than would otherwise be the case. We augment the data with address information where we can find it, including Eircodes, but also the address of an organisation on the Internet or its URL. We classify it using a classification standard with 54 sub-categories, which makes the data more easily understood for people interested in those particular subsectors.
This categorisation is derived from an international standard which is also used by the UN and EUROSTAT.
We assign a unique identifier to every organisation. This is very much in keeping with best current thinking in statistical planning, because it means that organisations can be recognised using this single number even if they have a variety of names or identities, or if they use names in both Irish and English. Having one number keyed against all of its other numbers or identifiers means that stakeholders, whether funders, volunteers, beneficiaries or policymaker, have a clear line of sight and are able to validate an organisation’s identity for the first time.
Finally, the value that we add is to publish the information freely in a variety of formats and platforms. The most basic dataset for 20,000 non-profit organisations appears on the Government’s open data portal, data.gov.ie. We publish it in machine-readable form and it is updated daily. This means that information about the body of non-profit organisations which make up civil society organisations in Ireland is accessible by people all over the world. Indeed, it is used by people from outside Ireland as well as from within. We also publish a free public website, www.benefacts.ie, where thousands of people access the data on these organisations every month, for a variety of purposes. This data includes, for the first time, a source where anybody can go to find information about the sources of grant income or fee income from Government. People can now go to a free site and discover what the balance or mix of funding from various sources is. This is information that is already in the public domain but is not readily accessible.
There are other users of our data and our information and web services. Last year we built the online register of charities for the Charities Regulatory Authority, which can be viewed on its website, and we have facilitated the regulator in making the accounts of incorporated charities available to the public, which was not possible previously. We provide a quarterly data feed to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, which it draws on in making Ireland’s statutory returns to EUROSTAT. We provided a large body of data to support a research project by the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, as well as extensive data files and supports to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Charities Regulatory Authority to assist them in their statutory functions. Already this year we have provided various data files on request to a major charity, an employee giving scheme in a large commercial organisation, a charities representative organisation and to the Housing Agency. We have also commenced work on data research projects with the Departments of Justice and Equality and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. We are in discussions with other Departments as well.
The Minister mentioned that he had launched our first annual sector analysis report last year, and I am very pleased that he has agreed to launch our second report in April. This is a kind of annual rendering of account for the entire sector, and gives the public an idea of the form and structure of civil society organisations in this country, and the scope of their contribution to our society. Our report describes the scale of turnover, which amounts to almost €11 billion, employment in the sector, amounting to 150,000 people, the extent of Government funding, amounting to €5.3 billion or about 8% of current Exchequer spending, the pattern of higher remuneration in the sector, which is very significantly lower than that enjoyed by people working in other sectors, contrary to popular opinion on the subject, and the profile of philanthropic support, which we know very little about in this country.
I want to talk briefly about the power of full population data, because most of the information that has been gathered until now about the work of this sector comes from survey information, in other words partial, occasional surveys which are undertaken from time to time, which are expensive and which tend not to be comparable with each other. By gathering data year on year and promoting better disclosure habits on the part of non-profit organisations and public bodies alike, and continually seeking new sources of public data, we are building an unprecedented knowledge infrastructure to support research and policy making and decision making within this sector.
Last year, with the active co-operation of a range of partners, including more than 70 participants in the HSE alone, we piloted a new service for decision makers called Benefacts Analytics. This prototype service provides detailed governance, compliance and risk analysis information structured in bespoke portfolios and derived from the audited financial statements of almost 10,000 non-profit organisations. It allows registered users to see a body of sensitive information – which of course is already accessible, one by one, in paper format – presented in a digital format that allows non-specialists to interpret comparative and historical trend data, and helps them to identify lead indicators of certain kinds of financial or governance risk. It has many other benefits as well.
In the future we plan to roll out Benefacts Analytics in partnership with public and philanthropic partners. We believe it has the potential not just to reduce uncertainty and risk, but ultimately to help streamline non-profit organisations' engagement with their Government funders. Our contention is that the cost of doing business with Government, in terms of duplication of administrative effort alone, is one of the biggest avoidable overheads for the sector.
We are very excited about the potential for local data derived from the published registers of public participation networks to augment the database of Irish non-profit organisations we have created. Potentially, the input of additional data about local societies, clubs and associations might double the size of the database to 40,000 organisations, or perhaps more. This year we intend to incorporate the financial records of unincorporated charities, including many religious bodies, as soon as legal obstacles have been resolved by the Charities Regulatory Authority. We are planning to add a much smaller group of civil society organisations, namely political parties, to the dataset, with the co-operation of the Clerk of the Dáil and the Standards in Public Office Commission, which last year made this set of financial statements publicly available for the first time. We plan to release a new edition of the website, benefacts.ie, in the summer, responding to user feedback and helping many more people to exploit the benefits of an evidence base to support decisions about, and understanding of, Ireland’s civil society organisations.
I thank the committee, and we welcome any questions members might have.
I know from some of today's media coverage that Benefacts has raised the fact that charities are not publishing their financial information in full. The Companies Act 2014 made it possible for charities to produce abridged accounts, and it is true that most of them do that instead of publish full accounts. This approach may be encouraged by accountants, and if charities legally do not have to publish full accounts is it the case that accountants are advising them to publish abridged accounts? It is difficult to imagine that any organisation would go against the advice of its accountants. Can the witnesses address that issue? The Charities Regulatory Authority is currently developing a financial reporting standard for charities, and we are aware that it will more than likely require all charities which are subject to audit to produce and publish non-abridged accounts. Is it the case that, while these financial reporting standards do not currently apply to the unincorporated charities, there is a provision contained within the Companies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2013 which would close that loophole? I would appreciate the witnesses' viewpoint on that issue.
Ms Patricia Quinn
The Senator is correct to say that the provisions of the Companies Act 2014 changed the terms under which companies limited by guarantee previously were obliged to publish their financial statements in full. This was because they were deemed to be public companies under the old Companies Act. That changed, and as the Senator said, the companies, charities and non-profit organisations were being advised that, for the first time, they were free to avail of the same reporting thresholds as private companies. Many have chosen to do so.
The last time we checked, this month, the number was 1,362 charities. That is in the order of 40% of registered charities. Let us consider the profile of these organisations. Many of them are smaller charities. Nonetheless, they have chosen to withhold information from the public, even though many of them are organisations which receive public funding.
There is an irony for all of these organisations. I will come to the question of the Charities Regulator. The provisions of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's circular that govern the way in which the Government requires grant recipients to account for funds are highly specific on what should be included in the financial statements. The organisations have borne the expense of having an audit prepared. That is unavoidable as it provides all of the information one would expect to see in a full set of audited financial statements. That is what goes to the members of the company and it is for them to decide whether to file an abridged set with the Companies Registration Office. My understanding is that if only one member of the company disagrees, the accounts have to be submitted to the Companies Registration Office in full. However, if there is unanimity on the abridged accounts being filed in public, that is what happens.
Benefacts is like any member of the public. We have no power, other than the power of influence. That is why we seek to encourage charities and non-profit organisations to adopt the highest standards of disclosure in their own self-interests.
Senator Rose Conway-Walsh is correct to say the Charities Act, as it stands, exempts charities that are companies from filing financial statements with the Charities Regulator which has amending regulation in hand to change that situation. It is surely anomalous that charities are allowed to withhold this information without breaking the law. I emphasise that no one is suggesting they are doing anything that is not entirely legal, but the abridgement does not save them any money. A full audit has to be prepared and the abridgement happens post hoc. Our understanding anecdotally is that because of the requirements on public funders to get this information to charities, frequently charities file abridged accounts with the Companies Registration Office, which is where members of the public can read them, but file the full set with their funders, as they are required to under the provisions of the circular.
I will not ask any more questions for now.
I was listening to the commentary. I imagine a member of the public would not be able to distinguish between the role of Benefacts and that of the Charities Regulator. I have had an interest in Benefacts for some time. As the representatives of Benefacts are aware, I raised questions about the organisation in my role as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. Obviously, this is the finance committee and I thank the Chairman for allowing me to ask questions. Was the original Benefacts project tendered for?
Ms Patricia Quinn
By "the original Benefacts project" does the Deputy mean what happened in 2015?
Yes.
Ms Patricia Quinn
No.
Why not?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It was a proposal that had been made with funding from the Government and matching funding from philanthropies. The decision to issue a tender or otherwise was not made by us.
According to the accounts, the figure for incorporation expenses came to €18,595. What were they for?
Ms Patricia Quinn
I do not have the 2015 accounts with me.
Will Ms Quinn write to us with the details?
Ms Patricia Quinn
There were expenses incurred in the setting up of the company, but they were not limited to incorporation. They related to the cost of preparing plans, developing proposals-----
Ms Quinn can provide the information if she does not have it to hand.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I can certainly provide a more detailed answer after the meeting. I do not have the information to hand.
I do not expect Ms Quinn to have absolutely everything to hand, but she might let us know who from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform approved them. I presume there was approval by the Department.
Ms Quinn has been in her current role since the beginning. The job was not publicly advertised. Was it?
Ms Patricia Quinn
No.
Why was that?
Ms Patricia Quinn
There was no job.
There was a job.
Ms Patricia Quinn
The proposal to develop Benefacts was put forward by the trustees and subsequently the directors of the company. It was based on a body of work that had been done by the voluntary directors and me over a period of years before the funding was provided.
Who employs Ms Quinn?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Let me finish. Part of the work also involved securing the co-operative participation of matching funding. Some 50% of the funding for the first phase of Benefacts came not from the Government but from philanthropy.
I will answer the Deputy's next question. I am employed by the company – by the board.
Let me get this straight for the members of the public who are watching. Until 2017 or 2018, the majority of the funding was sourced from taxpayers or other sources, including The Ireland Funds, the Atlantic gang and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Ms Quinn's position was not filled by open competition but simply by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It could have been filled by anyone, not simply by Ms Quinn.
Ms Patricia Quinn
The position was filled by my employer, the board of the company. There was 50:50 matching funding, in other words, 50% was provided by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and 50% by philanthropies.
There was no competition for the position. Is that correct?
Ms Patricia Quinn
There was no competition for the position.
That is strange. How were the directors on the board of Benefacts picked?
Ms Patricia Quinn
There was an advertisement. Benefacts advertised on its website for the members of the board and the members of a stakeholders forum. After the founding directors, that is how additional members of the board were appointed.
The additional directors are chosen by-----
Ms Patricia Quinn
Public competition.
A total of three directors have resigned in recent years. Is that the case?
Ms Patricia Quinn
There is rotation. Yes, absolutely.
Did they resign or did they simply come to the end of their lives.
Ms Patricia Quinn
They resigned.
Obviously, under the law they are required to give written statements explaining why they resigned. Why did they resign?
Ms Patricia Quinn
They had come to the point where other pressures meant that they were unable to give the time and energy needed for the role of director. That was something they put to the board which accepted the resignation in every case. It is not unusual, especially in voluntary organisations in which the directors give a great deal of their time
I am only asking the question.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Absolutely and I am happy to answer it.
I am sure there is a record of why they resigned because by law they had to explain it. Is it true that the chairperson of the board is also the chairperson of the audit committee?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is not.
Who is the chairperson of the audit committee?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Bernie Cullinan.
Has the chairperson of the board ever been the chairperson of the audit committee?
Ms Patricia Quinn
On a temporary basis, following the resignation of the previous chairman and before the appointment of the current chairman, there was a short-term overlap when the person who chaired the audit committee also served as chairman of the board.
Mr. Tom Boland
I might add that at that point, as I understand it, Bernie Cullinan was an interim chairperson. It was not intended that she would be the permanent chairperson of the board.
That is because it would not be normal, as the Benefacts representatives can appreciate.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Absolutely.
In that sense it would not have been appropriate. It is not the norm in any way, shape or form. Benefacts operates under a voluntary code of governance. Is that correct?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We comply on a voluntary basis with the code of practice for the governance of-----
Given what the Minister said earlier, Benefacts will operate under a different code of governance because the majority of the company's funding will probably come from the taxpayer. It will have to fall into the norm in that regard. The old way of funding was 50:50. In my scenario we are looking back at different accounts. How does Ms Quinn perceive the funding streams? What were they in 2017 and what will they be in 2018?
Ms Patricia Quinn
In 2017 the funding streams were 50:50. In 2018 they will be different. Atlantic Philanthropies is no longer making grants. The Ireland Funds is making an ongoing commitment, as are other smaller philanthropies in Ireland. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has made a commitment. I am sorry to say, Chairman, that I did not hear what the Minister had to say on this point, but the funding commitment-----
He said the funding from the Department was going to be increased.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I can confirm that it stayed static from 2017 to 2018 at €950,000. We understand the same level of funding will be provided in 2018, 2019 and 2020.
How often do Benefacts staff meet officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform? Who are the officials they deal with?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Our meetings with senior officials are a matter of public record because we have signed up to the lobbying register. The official we deal with currently is Mr. Ian Devlin and we also meet Dr. Lucy Fallon-Byrne who is the assistant secretary responsible.
Is Benefacts auditing done in-house or is a company hired to do it?
Ms Patricia Quinn
The company's accounts are audited by KPMG. We also have on our staff a number of chartered accountants, including our head of finance.
With regard to income, does the company generate external sales? It amasses a huge volume of data. Does the website mention 20,000 records?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Non-profits.
I used to be an IT manager and I specialised in databases. Is the figure of 20,000 accurate?
Ms Patricia Quinn
There are 20,000 entities but I am rounding. The number fluctuates. We do not have the same data for each entity. We have a large body of data from those organisations that file accounts with public regulators and we have substantially less data regarding the rest.
Is 20,000 accurate? The website states------
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is 19,000 organisations.
That Benefacts is reporting on.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
We will not fall out over a few hundred organisations. Has Benefacts data on all of them?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We have at least ten fields of data on all of them. In the case of half, we have up to 200 fields of data because we extract that information from their financial statements.
Does Benefacts sell any of that data? If so, to whom?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We give away nearly all of if most of the time. Under the terms of our original funding agreement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and our philanthropic funders, we provided free access to the data for every public body that asked for it in the first three years. That was to test the market and the potential for people to see value in the data. The terms of our second round of funding have changed and, therefore, for the next three years - beginning on 1 January this year - our funding is subject to different terms. We are contractually committed to providing a body of resources and services to the public to make information about the entire non-profit sector transparent. In addition, we provide a quarterly data feed to the CSO and others-----
So Benefacts does not sell data.
Ms Patricia Quinn
The value of data sales is so marginal as to be small relative to the cost of producing it. We sell data to anybody who is interested in what we have to offer but the value of data sales to date has been minuscule.
So Benefacts sells data.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I am not avoiding the question. We absolutely sell data.
That is all I wanted to know.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I stress that relative to the scale of the cost of producing it, we sell very little.
I presume Benefacts has a data protection officer.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes, we do-----
Is that person employed on a full-time basis?
Ms Patricia Quinn
-----and we have made a detailed submission to the Data Protection Commissioner. We have a small staff and, therefore, it is part of the responsibilities of somebody who has been given other responsibilities. The person who held the position of data protection officer resigned at the end of last year and we are currently in the process of filling that vacancy.
I am glad to be given the opportunity to talk about data protection. We are acutely conscious of the provisions of the GDPR and we consider ourselves to be a marginal source of risk in respect of personal information. We hold almost no personal information. We give back some information that comes bundled with data that we buy from the CRO and we hash personal data wherever we find it in files. For example, when a director of a company signs the memorandum forming the company and gives his or her profession and home address, we strike out that information when the files are made public.
That is fair enough. To save time, will Ms Quinn supply a copy of the company's data protection policy to the committee?
Ms Patricia Quinn
I would be happy to.
The data protection officer position is vacant but somebody is doing the job.
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is vacant.
Given its role, surely the company cannot operate without a data protection officer.
Ms Patricia Quinn
It falls to me to take responsibility for data protection.
Ms Quinn is busy. She said the company has a small number of staff to run a sizeable database with a significant volume of data. I presume much of the work has to be outsourced and, therefore, there are many contracts with external agencies and I presume all these are tendered for.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Absolutely.
Are they tendered under public procurement guidelines?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
Can Ms Quinn supply a list of every contract valued in excess of €10,000 that has been entered into since the company's incorporation with the tender details?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
That would be helpful. I presume there are no conflicts of interest relating to anybody working for the organisation or a board member or to those who supply services to the organisations.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I mentioned that we are compliant on a voluntary basis with the code of practice for governance of non-profit organisations, which gives clear guidelines on that subject. The board and its audit, governance and risk committee reviews our compliance half yearly as required by the code. I do not meant to avoid the question. There are no conflicts and that is very much provided for in the governance code.
My questions are not designed to catch Ms Quinn out. I respect that this organisation has an unusual set up, which is not a negative. It is also a relatively young organisation and, sometimes, there is a fear that such an organisation will fall between two stools. I used to be the chairman of a committee and the reason I ask these specific questions is to make sure there is public confidence that the organisation is not falling between stools and that everything is tendered for and complies with public procurement guidelines, especially as the organisation moves into a space where the majority of its funding will come from the taxpayer. Data protection is a serious issue as well when it comes to Benefacts.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I would be glad of an opportunity to understand what might be the serious issue relating to data protection. It is important to us. We made a detailed submission on data protection when we started out, which I am happy to provide to the committee. The submission is a case statement for our approach to data protection and that led us to adopt a privacy impact statement and to change our policies vis-à-vis the holding of personal data. We hold almost no personal data and, indeed, the data available about company directors from other sources are greater than what is available from us.
The organisation has a small staff. Does it contract people to do the data analysis?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We have a small staff and they do most of the work. The Deputy has made assumptions regarding a large volume of external contracting-----
Does the organisation hire in staff to work on IT, financial analysis and so on?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
I presume that is done on site, that everything is encrypted and that all the data they work with is protected. I presume they are covered by the data protection policy and that the organisation owns the IT equipment with which they work. I presume all of this in view of the volume of data the organisation has access to, even though I acknowledge the way in which Ms Quinn says it is cleaned. I presume this policy applies to the external staff who are hired.
Ms Patricia Quinn
It does, although I stress it is perhaps inappropriate to suggest - and I do not want to let it pass - that a large volume of the data we hold is personal. Almost none of the data processed by us is personal data.
I did not say that it is.
Ms Patricia Quinn
The impact of data protection regulations on our work, therefore, is marginal but the committee will be the judge of that when it sees the case statement we will supply.
Mr. Tom Boland
I appreciate the motivation behind the Deputy's questions from a board point of view. We are conscious that we need to be above reproach in all these areas in light of the work we do. The expression refers to Caesar's wife being above suspicion. As a board, we are conscious of ensuring public confidence in everything Benefacts does and in our dealings with the Executive.
I have a last question and I thank the Chairman for his indulgence. I will short circuit some of these. Will the witnesses supply to the committee the Benefacts disclosure policy, its data protection policy - which I have already asked for - and its fraud policies, as currently constituted that is before today? Does Benefacts have a human resources manager, and if so who is this?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We have a HR function, which is part of the work of the person who has the responsibility for finance and operational management.
I will ask the question again. Does Benefacts have a HR manager?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We do not have a person whose title is HR manager. The total number of staff is-----
Who manages it? Ms Quinn is the chief executive so who manages HR?
Ms Patricia Quinn
The person who is the financial and operations manager manages HR.
Is that person qualified to manage HR?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
What is the name of the system that Benefacts uses to manage its information?
Ms Patricia Quinn
SQL Server.
Sorry?
Ms Patricia Quinn
SQL Server. It is a Microsoft-----
I know what SQL Server is. With regard to the IT system for managing information, has Benefacts customised the system? I worked in database development for three years and I have used SQL Server. Has Benefacts customised its development of that or added any off-the-shelf packages to develop it?
Ms Patricia Quinn
I do not pretend to be a technical specialist but it is fair to say that we have used standard products and services from major providers to the fullest extent, principally Microsoft. There is a detailed note about our database in my submission to the committee - but probably not detailed enough for the Deputy - and there are other specific questions that we could answer. We are currently transitioning from one form of database structure to another in line with the growing needs on the data warehouse, as it will become. By and large we work within existing software packages.
I just want to make sure it is fit for purpose.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Absolutely.
Given the data that Benefacts deals with I would be concerned if the system was not fit. On the internal audit, is there anybody external to the organisation on the audit board?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
Who?
Ms Patricia Quinn
A gentleman called John McNamara who is a former audit director in KPMG. He did some volunteering work with our company.
How long has he been on the audit board?
Ms Patricia Quinn
He was appointed last year.
Was it the end of last year or the beginning of last year?
Ms Patricia Quinn
I cannot remember the date.
Will Ms Quinn supply this to the committee?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes, I will supply it to the committee.
Will Ms Quinn also supply to the Chairman of the committee a copy of the Benefacts risk register, as it is prior to this date and in order of priority of risks?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Sure.
I thank Ms Quinn for her answers.
Maybe it is best if Ms Quinn looked over the transcript of the meeting, when it is available, to cover all the different areas as questioned by Deputy Kelly and to allow us the full comprehensive response to each of the issues raised. I allowed the line of questioning because when an entity is collecting data and putting it out there for use it is important that the entity itself is above reproach. I had not realised until today, having read through the submission, that there is an expectation Benefacts would receive 50% of its funding from the Department over the years 2018, 2019 and 2020. I believe the exchange is worthwhile in order to explain things further. The information Benefacts will supply to the committee will give us a greater understanding of the organisation.
Deputy Kelly is a member of the Committee of Public Accounts and I am sure the data that is made available by Benefacts is of assistance to committees that want to explore how entities are financed, how Government money is spent and so on. Is that the main purpose of it?
Ms Patricia Quinn
That is a large question and I will try to answer it this way; private companies and Government organisations have enjoyed the luxury of business intelligence - if that is the right term - for decades. they have invested in the capacity to gather information from financial statements, for example. Services such as Bloomberg, LexisNexis or specialist firms have support business decision makers in the private sector for so long that people take it for granted. No such infrastructure, however, exists in this sector. The want of it costs dearly. It costs in poor decision making, it costs in duplication of effort and as I said earlier it costs in the energy and effort of non-profit organisations in providing the State over and over again with the same information.
Who is taking up this information?
Ms Patricia Quinn
The people who take up this-----
Is it random or are there Departments?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is Departments of the State and agencies of Government. I can provide the Chairman with a list. We have met with a dozen agencies and Departments who have contacted us, or we have discussed with them the kinds of data needs we can serve.
What is Benefacts' destination? It has set up, it has gathered this information of some 20,000 organisations onto its database and so on. What is the plan for the future? Is it to remain in the one space or where does expansion come about in such an organisation?
Ms Patricia Quinn
One of the very important aspects is to disclose to the public and to the people of Ireland what form volunteerism and civil society organising actually takes in this State. It is remarkable that sometimes people would say there are too many charities in Ireland. By international comparative standards, when one looks at international statistical comparisons, the number of volunteer organisations that we account for is very low. This is because other European countries typically account for the small associations and clubs and the organisations that provide all kinds of immeasurable benefits to people in local communities; what used to be called social capital. These are not actually counted statistically when we think about the way we organise our life in Ireland. This is one of the things Benefacts hopes to contribute; to provide a single extensive database that provides a better understanding for people making decisions about where to live, about how to educate their children, about recreational matters and about where they want to put their voluntary effort and their money. There are many ways in which life is organised, which are encaptured and engrossed in the work of volunteer organisations that are not well understood. At the minimum this is what we would set out to do. Obviously there are transactional services we can provide and we have spoken about some of these today but I would not want to let the opportunity pass without saying that it is not all about the cost of these organisations or the funding that is provided to them. It is about the changes they make to the quality of our lives and the quality of our society. Benefacts is setting out to document and map this and to make information about it transparently available to everybody.
Is it part then of the future plan to be in a position to sell data at a greater level than it does now?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes it is. We follow a model that was established some 15 years ago in the United States of America with a company called GuideStar. This is a very well-known organisation in the US, which was established to do very similar things to what Benefacts is doing. It was built on the idea that there is a lot of wasted data, which in the US situation was filed with the Internal Revenue Service. People make their tax returns and gain the benefit of tax relief for giving to charities, or they operate within a tax benevolent environment-----
Is that a private company or is it funded like Benefacts?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is not. GuideStar is a company very like ours. It is a public charity.
Is it government funded?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It started out without government funding but with funding from major philanthropies. Tens of millions of dollars were invested in GuideStar by a consortium of major philanthropies in the US. I understand from the former chief executive of GuideStar, who is now a member of our board, that it took eight years of trading before GuideStar started to break even. The level of investment by philanthropies was such as to establish the technologies and the foundations for the organisation. Gradually GuideStar started to sell data to the public, to smaller foundations, to government agencies and to philanthropists. This is how it functions now.
When Benefacts started out first was it Ms Quinn's own idea?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes.
When Benefacts was established, did the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform support it?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is fair to say that the Department looked at the model and at its own plans for public administrative reform and found that many of the things-----
Benefacts sat in to that space.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Yes. The Department saw what we were doing as fitting within that context.
As such, is it right to say that there is no competition?
Ms Patricia Quinn
I do not believe there is direct competition for everything we do, but there are many people who are interested in the things in which we are interested. I hope there will be more of them as we make more data freely available.
I want to ask a question about non-profit organisations that have their registered offices outside the State, for example, in Britain. How does that fit in with what Benefacts is doing? Will they be included?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We can include them if somebody is interested in us doing so. Due to the fact that we control the database, there is no reason we cannot include any organisations we choose to include. Currently, however, we do not include organisations based outside the State.
However, they will not be compelled to be included in Benefacts' database. It is an opt-in system. Is that correct?
Ms Patricia Quinn
We have no powers of compulsion . This is a way in which we differ from the regulator. We have no regulatory standing of any kind whatsoever.
When an organisation is the source of a huge amount of information, it becomes very powerful.
Ms Patricia Quinn
I could envisage a scenario where that could happen.
We return, therefore, to Deputy Kelly's question about protecting that information and ensuring its proper use, which is hugely important. In the answer the witnesses will provide to the committee, can they indicate how, according to their projections, Benefacts will ensure the protection and proper use of that information? That will be hugely important to the witnesses' work and the issues raised in their presentation. I have two further questions on that topic. Is Benefacts on the database?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Of course.
I will come back to the other question later. It is not relevant now. I would like to know more about the sale of the information. Do the witnesses see their organisation continuing to rely on being a partner of the Department in the future? Alternatively, between now and 2020, do the witnesses expect or hope for Benefacts to be a completely independent organisation generating its own funds?
Mr. Tom Boland
The board is very much seized of this issue and will be holding an official meeting on future strategy in the next couple of weeks. That is very much an issue we need to address. The idea of selling information in order to support what Benefacts does is very much in the air. Exactly how it is to be done, to whom it is to be sold and the absolute safeguards that are to be put in place are issues to be teased out at board level. I would like to point out, in response to the point about protecting information, that all of this data is already publically available. What Benefacts does is draw it together into a much more accessible, readable form, from which conclusions can be drawn.
I have no objection to that but when an organisation is gathering information, it can gather all types. As such, the individuals handling the information had better know the difference between what can be made publicly available and what is sensitive.
Mr. Tom Boland
I agree.
Both can be sold, as our guests know, and there is a bigger market for one kind than there is for the other.
Ms Patricia Quinn
This is a good opportunity for me to mention our project advisory group, PAG, that was convened by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I can provide the committee with its terms of reference and membership. Naturally, there is an account of this in our annual report. There is a project advisory group drawn from a range of Government agencies, Departments and regulators and it has overseen every step of the project since the outset. It is that group which has advised us and overseen choices that we have made about the deployment of data.
I would like our guests to provide that information. Perhaps Mr. Boland can give us the information when he has arrived at the point where he can share it with us. I refer to the directors.
I do not want to take up all the available time. Does Benefacts come within the ambit of the Freedom of Information, FOI, Act?
Ms Patricia Quinn
No.
Presumably, if it is fully funded or majority-funded by the State, it will come under FOI. That is not really a question for the witnesses to answer, but I presume that is the case. I understand that Benefacts gathers all the data and repackages it in a format that is readable and sellable, or readable and useable. That is fine. Who actually owns that? Data needs format. Who owns the data with the new format? Does the State own it or does Benefacts own it?
Ms Patricia Quinn
The open data, which is the raw material, is a public good.
Ms Patricia Quinn
If I may finish the answer, the open data is a public good and the work that Benefacts puts into it belongs to Benefacts. Benefacts is not a private company. It is not a company in which anybody has any ownership or equity. Rather, it is a company limited by guarantee without share capital. As such, Benefacts owns the data but deploys it for its public benefit purposes, which are set out very clearly in our documents.
I will ask the question again. I understand raw data. As I say, I worked in this area for years. Who owns the data that is reformatted? Is Benefacts the owner? Very well. That is obvious. If the two Senators, the Chairman and I were to attempt to set up a company, trading under a company name, which we felt could do this job as well, we would be precluded from doing so because there is no tender to produce this. Why is this not being retendered?
Ms Patricia Quinn
Respectfully, that is not a question-----
It is a question we might put to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.
It is a question for the Minister.
I think so. It is a question I will leave out there because there is taxpayers' money involved. With respect to our guests, we do not know if we are getting value for that money. That is why the witnesses are before this committee and not the Committee of Public Accounts. When will the 2017 accounts be published?
Ms Patricia Quinn
In about three weeks.
Is it true that when Benefacts was founded, it was claimed that after a few years it would be self-financing?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It is not.
Was that ever the intention?
Ms Patricia Quinn
It was not.
Was it the intention that Benefacts would provide the majority of its own funding?
Ms Patricia Quinn
As I have already said, GuideStar, which was our model, started to break even after eight years. Self-financing is not a commercial proposition. The committee must ask others whether they agree but I believe that far from representing a net cost to the State, our proposition was viewed as representing a net benefit. In fact, it offered a reduction in costs because of the duplication of administrative overheads incurred across many Departments and Government agencies by essentially processing the same data from many non-profit bodies. I mean that genuinely. I think that we have made that case, although I cannot say with what level of success. That is for others to determine. We have made the contention-----
I tend to agree with the witness.
Ms Patricia Quinn
-----that this saves money.
I agree with Ms Quinn that there is a need for this service. The issue is that, as guardians of the taxpayer, the members of this committee cannot determine this because there is nothing to measure against.
Ms Patricia Quinn
Indeed.
I refer to the processes by which Benefacts and its board were set up and by which individuals were picked for jobs. From a transparency point of view, if, in three years, another company attempts to compete, we will not have oversight of the processes.
Ms Quinn referred to the project advisory group, PAG. Who is the chair of that group?
Ms Patricia Quinn
The current chair is an assistant secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The first chairman was a principal officer in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.
Just for transparency, who are those two people?
Ms Patricia Quinn
The first individual to serve in that role was Mr. Kevin Daly. He is no longer an official with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The current incumbent is Mr. John Conlon.
When did Mr. Conlon take over?
Ms Patricia Quinn
I would have to provide the Chairman with the date.
On 22 February, the select committee will be discussing the Estimates for the Department. These are questions that can be put to the Minister as well. As there are no other questions, I thank Ms Quinn and Mr. Boland.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Tuesday, 6 March 2018.