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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Tuesday, 1 May 2018

EU Proposals on Taxation of the Digital Economy: Discussion (Resumed)

The purpose of this meeting is to engage on the legislative proposals that need further scrutiny, COM (2018) 147 and COM (2018) 148 for taxation of the digital economy with officials from both the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

I welcome Mr. Brendan Crowley, Mr. John Murphy and Mr. Michail Panteris from the Department of Finance and Ms Kate Levey and Ms Maeve O'Malley from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners to the meeting.

I advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Crowley to make his opening statement.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Chairman, my name is Brendan Crowley and I am the principal officer in the international tax unit of the Department of Finance.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend today. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. John Murphy and Mr. Michail Panteris who work with me in the international tax files unit. Two colleagues from the Revenue Commissioners Ms Kate Levey, principal officer in the EU branch of Revenue’s international division, and Ms Maeve O’Malley, also of Revenue’s international division join us.

Before addressing the European Commission’s proposals, it is worth reflecting on what has happened regarding the taxation of digital companies in recent years. The taxation of the digital economy was considered in the OECD base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, project. The BEPS Project Action 1 report on this issue concluded that there is no separate “digital economy” but rather the entire economy is becoming increasingly digitalised. It also concluded that the tax challenges of the digital economy could be substantially addressed by the implementation of the full suite of BEPS recommendations.

The report did recognise, however, that the question of how taxing rights on income generated from cross-border activities in the digital age should be allocated required further consideration. It was agreed that the work of the OECD task force on the digital economy should continue with a final report being agreed by 2020.

An interim report was published by this task force in March this year. This report includes an important in-depth analysis of value creation across different digitalised business models. The report makes clear that further work and discussion is needed in considering the extent to which data and user participation actually contribute to value creation within business.

Work is still needed on identifying the extent of the problem we are trying to solve, as well as on the potential solutions that could ultimately be agreed. The report does note that there is no consensus on the merits of, or need for, interim measures in this area, and that a number of countries consider that an interim measure will give rise to risks and adverse consequences. Work continues at OECD level with a view to reaching consensus among all countries by 2020.

The Commission had a mandate from the European Council in October 2017 to ensure that any proposals in this area both ensure that all companies pay their fair share of taxes and that there is a global level playing field in line with the work currently under way at the OECD.

The Commission package includes two legislative proposals as well as a Commission recommendation. The first legislative proposal is the digital services tax directive. This proposes that all member states be required to introduce a new indirect tax chargeable on the revenue generated by the supply of digital services within the EU. Digital services are defined to include three different types of services: (1) digital advertising targeted at users of a digital interface; (2) the transmission of data collected about users of a digital interface; and (3) intermediation services, such as providing an online marketplace where buyers and sellers can transact.

The digital services tax would be a tax on revenue, not on profits, therefore it would be payable regardless of whether the activity is profitable or not. The Commission has proposed that all member states must set a tax rate of 3% on this revenue, and there would be no discretion for member states to increase or reduce this rate.

These types of services have been chosen based on the Commission’s view that they are services that are largely reliant on user value creation. The proposal assumes that the user adds value in the case of the digital services covered by the directive and a 3% tax is a one-size-fits-all attempt to capture that assumed value creating activity.

The tax would only be payable where a corporate group has a worldwide turnover of over €750 million and at least €50 million in turnover from taxable digital services provided within the EU. The Commission anticipates that a digital services tax would raise approximately €5 billion euro across all member states. However, the Commission has recommended that the digital services tax should be deductible in member states against profits subject to corporation tax, although this is not legally required by the directive as proposed.

The tax has been proposed as an ‘interim measure’ which would ultimately be replaced by the updated corporate tax rules contained in the accompanying proposed directive on the corporate taxation of a “significant digital presence”, SDP. The text of the digital services tax directive itself does not however contain any sunset clause or provision for its automatic cessation.

The second legislative proposal is the significant digital presence directive. This is proposed as a longer-term solution to the tax challenges of the digital economy. The Commission proposes that member states introduce the concept of a “significant digital presence” into their domestic law. This proposal would, in effect, enable a country to charge corporation tax on a company which has no physical presence in that country – no staff and no assets – once it has a digital presence there.

The directive proposes that a taxable digital presence would be deemed to exist if any of the following thresholds are met: €7 million revenue earned from digital services in a member state; 100,000 users in a member state or 3,000 contracts entered into with residents of a member state. The same threshold would apply for each member state, whether large or small.

The directive then considers how to decide what amount of profit to attribute to a country where the company has a digital taxable presence. The directive notes that the core principles underlying the current OECD transfer pricing rules for profit attribution should be modified. This would allow some profits to be attributed to activities undertaken by digital companies in a member state on the basis of location of users and data in that State, among other factors. The directive recognises that ultimately further detailed guidance would need to be developed internationally on this issue.

I will now set out the Government's view of these proposals. As with any complex proposal, it is appropriate for officials to undertake a detailed analysis to understand the implications for Ireland and to inform our advice on Ireland's approach to these proposals. Work is under way within the Department and the Revenue Commissioners. Like all tax proposals made by the European Commission, these proposals require the unanimous approval of all member states before they are agreed. The proposals are likely to change shape during the months of detailed technical analysis and technical negotiation that are ahead. We will engage constructively with that process, as we always do.

The Minister for Finance has consistently stated that Ireland remains committed to global tax reform and that issues like these are best addressed at a global level. We believe the outcome of the discussions at EU level must not jeopardise the chances of achieving a sustainable and globally agreed solution. The Commission's digital tax proposals are significant and warrant careful consideration and analysis. That work is now under way. We are happy to assist the joint committee in its deliberations and to answer any questions that members may have.

I ask Ms Kate Levey to make her opening remarks.

Ms Kate Levey

I thank the committee for the invitation to assist members in considering these proposals today. In addition to its core role in administering the tax system, Revenue also assists the Department of Finance in the formulation of tax policy. Our experience of administering the tax system enables us to advise on the practicalities of proposed measures, including how avoidance and evasion risks can be mitigated. Each of the directives that has been proposed by the European Commission will be discussed in detail at the relevant Council working group at the EU. Revenue will participate in these discussions with our colleagues from the Department to provide the necessary support on technical, administrative and Exchequer implications. If the directives are agreed, Revenue will have an important role in transposing tax directives into domestic legislation.

The role of Revenue in respect of Exchequer implications involves the provision of statistical and economic analysis and costings to the Department, the Government and the Oireachtas. It will not be possible to produce an estimate of the cost of the Commission's longer-term proposal on the corporate taxation of a significant digital presence until the profit allocation rules in the proposal are further elaborated. However, Revenue has been working to produce an estimate of the potential cost of the Commission's interim proposal for the introduction of a digital services tax since it was published on 21 March last. If the proposal as currently drafted is adopted, the digital services tax will apply at a rate of 3% to revenues from a narrow range of digital services, including digital advertising, intermediation services and the transmission of data collected about users of a digital interface. The tax as proposed will apply only to companies with total annual worldwide revenue above €750 million and total annual revenue from the relevant digital activities in the EU above €50 million.

The Commission has estimated that there will be a yield of approximately €5 billion from the digital services tax. This implies that the new tax will apply to approximately €166 billion in digital services supplied in the EU market. Unfortunately, the Commission's impact assessment, which was published with the proposals, does not contain the underlying data on which the figures are based. We will continue to explore the basis for the Commission's estimate. Revenue has considered the data sources available to it internally and has established a preliminary estimate of the potential cost of the digital services tax directive. I refer to the cost arising by virtue of digital services tax paid in respect of transactions and revenues across EU member states being deductible from corporate profits that are charged with tax in Ireland. While the directive does not provide explicitly for the digital services tax to be deductible against corporate profits, as Mr. Crowley has said, our analysis is based on the assumption that it would be fully deductible against taxable income in Ireland.

I would like to refer to an analysis of approximately 20 companies engaged in digital activities, each of which has gross revenues in excess of €750 million and EU revenues of at least €50 million. This analysis was performed using data on supplies of services from Ireland to other EU countries, as reported by taxpayers under the VAT information exchange system. These companies had combined EU revenues of approximately €56 billion in 2017, with the top ten accounting for 95% of the total. It is important to emphasise that it is not possible to determine the proportion of the revenues of each company that would be subject to the digital services tax or, in fact, whether some of the companies would be subject to the tax at all. At this stage, that question can only be answered definitively by the company itself. Given the relatively narrow scope of the digital services tax, it is reasonable to assume that a number of the approximately 20 companies may not be impacted by the tax at all. Therefore, we have focused on the top ten companies, which account for 95% of total revenues, as has already been mentioned. Based on an analysis of the activities of the ten companies, it is estimated that the digital services tax could apply to between 60% and 80% of their revenues. This gives an annual potential cost of between €120 million and €160 million in respect of the deductibility of the digital services tax paid in member states.

Given that the Commission's proposals were released very recently, it is important to emphasise the preliminary nature of this initial analysis. I will highlight a number of caveats in particular. It should be noted that because there is no Irish tax liability associated with reporting under the VAT information exchange system, the accuracy of the data is not verified in all cases. As the analysis may not yet have identified all digital supplies that would be subject to the new tax, it may underestimate the potential cost to some degree. On the other hand, to the extent that the digital services tax may not always result in a matching reduction in Irish taxable income - for example, if the taxpayer concerned is in a loss-making position or does not bear the full burden of the tax - the potential cost may be overestimated some degree. The estimates do not take account of the potential cost of implementing and collecting the new tax.

In the time available, Revenue has not been able to identify the relevant data to estimate the potential yield to the Irish Exchequer from the digital services tax. The VAT information exchange system data that I have mentioned does not extend beyond supplies of services to other EU member states. If we start with the European Commission's estimate of yield, a very simplistic approach would be to assume that Ireland will receive a proportion of the Commission's €5 billion estimate of yield that is commensurate with our population. EUROSTAT estimated last year that the population of the EU is 511.8 million and the population of Ireland is 4.8 million, which means that Ireland accounts for 0.9% of the total population of the EU. If we apply that to the Commission's €5 billion estimate of annual yield, we will get an estimated annual yield of approximately €45 million for Ireland. It is important to reiterate that this estimate is based entirely on the Commission's estimate and is not supported by Revenue data at this stage. I emphasise that the €45 million estimate has not been netted off against the potential costs of between €120 million and €160 million to which I referred earlier.

I thank the members of the committee for their attention. We will be happy to assist the committee by answering any questions they might have about these proposals.

When Ms Levey spoke about "the Commission's €5 billion estimate", is she saying that €45 million of this sum would be attributed to Ireland?

Ms Kate Levey

Yes. If we assume we would get a proportion of the €5 billion that is commensurate with our population, which constitutes approximately 1% of the EU total, we can calculate that we would get approximately €45 million per annum.

How accurate does Ms Levey think that is?

Ms Kate Levey

At this stage, there is very little detail on how the Commission reached its estimate of €5 billion. It published a detailed impact assessment, but it did not produce any of the data underlying that assessment. Therefore, I cannot comment on the accuracy or otherwise of this figure other than to say that it seems a little high based on the data we have looked at internally. We will not know, unfortunately, until we get to the bottom of the Commission's estimates.

It is very difficult for one to make decisions in this regard in the absence of the underpinning information. It is of concern that all one can do is take a stab in the dark. It has been recommended that the digital services tax should be deductible in member states against profits that would be subject to corporation tax. What would the impact of this recommendation be?

Ms Kate Levey

That is where the cost of the proposals comes in. I emphasise that they were published as recently as 21 March last. We have been working over recent weeks to pull together all available data. We will keep working on these numbers. It has been estimated that if the digital services tax is deductible, it will cost between €120 million and €160 million per annum.

Has the Department given any consideration to how it might be stipulated that this revenue should be used?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The proposal is at a very early stage. The discussions have only just started. We had a technical meeting on the proposal in Brussels. It was on the agenda at another couple of meetings. We are at a very early stage of figuring out the impact of these proposals.

Has the Commission proposed any stipulations or conditions that might apply to how the tax is used?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

No. It would just be a general tax measure.

So there has been no discussion on any constraints that might be put on this revenue from within the EU.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Not within the proposal, no.

Is there any precedent for an EU directive that forces a State to impose a tax at a certain rate? It has been proposed that this tax shall apply at a rate of 3%. Has the Department questioned the legal basis of that proposal? Has Ireland done so as a country?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The proposal is for a digital services tax as an indirect tax measure.

The VAT directive is an indirect tax measure, which sets ranges of rates that member states must apply. As far as I am aware, the proposal goes a little further by setting one exact rate, on which member states would not have discretion. We have asked the European Commission why it applied an exact rate in the directive. Digging into the impact assessment, we find that it discusses this rate. Our interpretation is that the impact assessment states that each country could only have one rate but there is European case law which states one cannot apply staggered rates on different thresholds. Each country will have to have one rate and the impact assessment suggests this rate be set at between 1% and 3%. The Commission has gone a step further and proposed a rate of 3% that would apply to all. The question we put to the Commission was whether it believed it had to do so or whether it believed the directive would be acceptable without a set rate. We are awaiting a reply. As I indicated, discussions are at an early stage. My colleague, Mr. Murphy, will travel to Brussels this evening for the next technical discussion. We are hoping to receive more details from the Commission.

Is the Department satisfied that the Commission is acting legally?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

We are looking into that issue. This is a question that we also have but our analysis is at an early stage. We want to get an understanding of the legal basis used by the Commission before we come to a conclusion on that question.

When does the Department hope to have an answer?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I cannot give an exact date. We are putting a range of questions to the Commission, as is every other member state. This is a Commission proposal, which was prepared without significant input from member states. The legal basis is one of a range of issues on which we are seeking clarification.

That the directive was prepared without input from member states may speak to what might happen. Obviously, the legal basis will determine how or whether the Department proceeds with the directive. It will be important to obtain that information at an early stage.

Mr. Crowley indicated the directive would be examined and the Department would make a detailed analysis and so forth. Last weekend, The Sunday Business Post featured an article which stated Ireland was actively courting China in the Minister's fight against the European Union's proposed emergency digital tax. That does not sound like the position being put forward by the Department. Is the article correct in stating the Minister informed other EU Ministers of Asian resistance?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

My understanding is that the article is referring to events at the weekend when the Minister visited Bulgaria for an informal ECOFIN meeting. The meeting was preceded by meeting of ASEM - the Asian countries and European Union member states - at which there was discussion of texts that would be included in the communiqué that is published after each ASEM meeting. The point the Minister made was that during the ASEM meeting a number of Asian countries made clear that they did not support an interim measure and did not want any reference to an interim measure included in the communiqué. I believe the article was referring to the Minister's comment that many countries outside the European Union were not in favour of an interim measure such as the digital services tax.

The Minister is obviously concerned about the tax if the number of countries outside the EU that have expressed-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The Minister's view is that we prefer a global consensus on these types of issues and they should be addressed by the OECD.

According to the Financial Times, Ireland, Denmark and the United Kingdom opposed the proposal. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The informal ECOFIN meeting was private, although a statement was issued afterwards by the Bulgarian Presidency. It is clear from the commentary surrounding the meeting that different views were expressed. As the Minister for Finance indicated to the media, he expressed his view that a global solution was the preferred approach and that we should be cautious about what we do at European level in order that we do not damage the chances of reaching a global solution.

In March, the action group on base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, produced an interim report dealing with the tax challenges arising from digitisation. As the Department stated, the report noted the challenges and a commitment was made to publish a full report by 2020. While we agree that this is the best approach at a global level, does the report not highlight that the OECD process will be slow? Is the Irish position, in supporting the OECD process, more about delaying action and hoping it peters out, rather than taking a more activist EU approach?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Since the BEPS project was launched in 2013, Ireland has been clear that we support a global approach because any regional solution is likely to lead to mismatches and more potential for aggressive tax planning. In terms of the time it takes, I agree that things take time at international level. There is a well established process from the BEPS project that we try to reach agreement internationally, after which EU member states seek to implement those agreements. Time is needed to implement the agreements at domestic level. Usually, the issues are complex and technical. A substantial amount of work is being done in the Department, for example, on implementing matters on which agreement has already been reached. These things take time - there is no two ways about that - but it is more important that we get the rules right because the intentional tax framework we are agreeing through the BEPS process and further work will hopefully be in place for a long time.

It was reported in January that the Revenue Commissioners had completed an analysis of the impact of the proposed digital tax which concluded that corporation tax receipts in Ireland would decline by €8 billion and there could be a substantial impact on receipts from payroll taxes due to job cuts by technical firms. The briefing paper stated that if the tax is implemented, multinational companies would no longer find Ireland to be an attractive location and it would reduce the State's overall ability to attract future investment. Can the Revenue Commissioners confirm the accuracy of these reports? Will they provide copies of the report or briefing to the joint committee?

Ms Kate Levey

I believe the reports arose as a result of a freedom of information request. They refer to an internal briefing done prior to the release of the Commission's proposals and the OECD's digital tax proposals. I believe it was provided at the end of last year when the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners was preparing for a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Rather than warning that digital tax proposals would have a significant negative impact on the economy, we tried to look at companies that sell digital services and figure out how much they currently contribute to the economy. They contribute a significant amount of corporation and payroll taxes and employ a considerable number of employees. At the time, there was no prescription on the digital tax proposals that might emerge. What we were looking at, therefore, was a possible reallocation of tax base away from Ireland, which is substantially different from the proposals that were ultimately published. At the time, we indicted that the companies in question make a significant contribution to the economy and to the extent that taxing rights relating to these companies would be allocated elsewhere, this would be a potentially significant issue for Ireland. However, no costings were done because no proposals had been produced at that stage. What we were saying was that digital companies make a significant contribution to the economy and there is, therefore, a risk from any proposal that may see taxing rights move to other jurisdictions.

Can the Revenue Commissioners provide those briefings to the joint committee?

Ms Kate Levey

The document published was effectively the briefing provided to the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners at the time. It simply stated that the companies in question make a major contribution to the economy and any proposals produced in relation to them could be potentially significant. In my opening statement, I outlined the actual costings the Revenue Commissioners have produced since seeing the detail of the Commission's proposals. These are much more relevant to the extent that the 3% tax proposed by the Commission would be an additional resource for member states but would cost Ireland an average of between €120 million and €160 million per annum because the tax would be deductible against profits that are currently taxable here. This is a much better representation of the risk for Ireland attaching to the directive published by the European Commission in the meantime.

How old is the report that was produced for the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts?

Ms Kate Levey

It was produced before Christmas when the digital tax proposals had been mooted but no detail had been elaborated on them.

On the impact of the common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB, in the medium term, the proposal for the significant digital presence seems to be closely aligned with the proposed CCCTB. Does Ms Levey agree that the directive constitutes a move towards applying tax where business takes place as opposed to where profits are declared? As a general rule, would any move in this direction mean less tax would be collected in this State? What I am trying to get at is whether the directive is compatible with the CCCTB or if it signals the end of the CCCTB proposal? I would welcome Ms Levey's analysis.

Ms Kate Levey

That is a fair assessment in terms of similarities. I should make clear that we are referring here to the second directive, which is different from the first directive.

It sees an allocation of taxing rights away from smaller jurisdictions to larger ones according to where users and data are located. It is similar to the CCCTB which proposes an allocation of profits to jurisdictions where fixed assets, employes and, most importantly, sales are situated. The CCCTB, which allocates profits to where sales take place, and the second significant digital presence directive, which allocates profits to where users are located, are both moving profits towards larger market jurisdictions and away from smaller countries. To that extent, they represent a risk to smaller member states. I was asked about compatibility with the CCCTB. The Commission has said it has published the directive on significant digital presence. Once that is agreed, the Commissioner's longer term objective is to introduce the CCCTB. It will tailor and amend the CCCTB proposal to accommodate the new directive and bring those rules into the CCCTB in the longer term. At the moment, they are separate and not compatible as they stand. The Commission, however, has stated its objective ultimately to carry through the principles in the new directive into the CCCTB should member states ever agree to introduce such a proposal.

Is Revenue concerned about that move? Does it see it as an erosion of our own capacity as a smaller member state?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

There is a broader debate under way. If one looks at what has happened, the BEPS reports were about aggressive tax planning. We are now moving to a slightly different debate as to where in a post-BEPS, highly-digitalised world companies should pay their tax. There are different views around the table. Some countries feel that users and data add value and some corporation tax should be attributed to where those users are and data are contributed. We are very committed to the concept that tax should be paid where value is created and, on foot our commitment to that concept, we believe we need a shared global understanding of what that means. That is really what the OECD is doing. It is looking at the concept of value creation. Only through a shared understanding of that can we ensure the corporation tax framework is sustainable into the long run and meets everyone's views of where value is created.

I welcome the delegation from Revenue. In relation to tax deductibility, will the tax be deducted as an ordinary expense or will the full cost of it be fully deductible when the company owes its tax at the finish?

Ms Kate Levey

We have not concluded whether, under our Taxes Consolidation Act, the tax would be deductible or not. We will not fully conclude that until the directive is agreed, if it ever is agreed. If it was to be deductible, it would be deductible as an expense, rather than forming a credit against tax. As such, the answer is "Yes". If €1 billion is paid in digital services tax by a company in another member state, the company will get a deduction for that €1 billion as an expense, which would reduce its corporation tax liability by 12.5% of that €1 billion.

Going on the figures the witnesses have provided to the committee, we would lose approximately €100 million a year.

Ms Kate Levey

It would be €120 million to €160 million.

However, we would get back €45 million.

Ms Kate Levey

I would be cautious about netting off in that way simply because the €120 million to €160 million comes from our Revenue data which I have seen in detail. The €45 million comes from the EU Commission. If it works out that way and one nets them off, the answer is that it is just over €100 million.

Technically, we could lose up to €160 million in relation to this.

Ms Kate Levey

Yes.

I propose that the €160 million we lose be offset against our payment as a net contributor to the European Union.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I will certainly pass that feedback on. It is a broader discussion which goes beyond the tax policy debate, but I will feed it back.

It would not be very fair if a tax we imposed on a company here meant the taxpayer paid it at the end of the day.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is something of which small member states in particular are aware and concerned about when a proposal like this is made which looks at attributing tax to larger member states with larger populations and user-bases.

What type of companies are involved? Some companies will be borderline, I imagine, and there will be a discussion as to whether they are in or out. What is the position with credit card companies, for example? Are they digital or financial? How will they be fixed in relation to this tax?

Ms Kate Levey

There are three types of digital services which are impacted. The Commission is trying to identify digital services and the value which comes from the contributions of users. In the first instance, it is talking about advertising revenues. Companies which manage to sell advertising based on analysing user preferences across member states create the first kind of revenue which is subject to the tax. The second type of digital revenue which is subject to the tax involves situations where there are digital marketplaces which bring buyers and sellers together. Those buyers and sellers will typically pay a commission to the marketplace for having introduced them to each other and for having allowed them to make sales to each other. That type of revenue is also included. The third type occurs when data is sold by companies which they have harvested from users. It is quite narrow and only captures those three types of revenue. My understanding is that credit card companies, for example, would not be in. For the 3% tax, one is talking about a narrow scope. It is advertising revenue, digital platforms which allow people to buy things from each other and sales of data.

What about the person who gives his or her data to those companies? Surely, there should be a gain for allowing one's data to be used.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The logic is that the person gives the data in exchange for the service. If one is using a search engine, one gives one's data in exchange for its use. If one is using a social network, one provides one's data in exchange for using the product.

The line is drawn at more than €740 million worldwide and then turnover of €50 million. Do they have to have both?

Ms Kate Levey

Yes.

How likely is it that the figures could change?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

This is the Commission's proposal and every bit of it is up for debate among member states. The member states, acting in Council, are the legislators on tax. It is totally up to member states to determine whether they want a lower threshold.

How were those figures arrived at?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The figure of €750 million has become a de facto standard where we think of the biggest multinationals. It seems to stem from country-by-country reporting, which was agreed at the OECD in action 13 of BEPS and provided that above that threshold, reports must be filed. It has probably filtered down from there. The €50 million figure was picked to ensure there is a certain level of scale in companies. The Commission's ambition is to target companies which have a significant presence within the EU. That is where the Commission has pulled that figure from.

I go back again to the type of companies. There are very large supermarket chains which are also in the banking business. They get people's data and offer services, including credit limits. Would those companies come under the scope of this?

Ms Kate Levey

It is very hard to say when one is not looking at an individual company. Unless the companies are selling advertising services, taking a commission from allowing buyers and sellers to use a platform or selling the data, they will not be caught. If they sell the data, they will be.

A large chain of supermarkets might have turnover above the threshold level but hold a small subsidiary company to sell the other services, which would not come within the limits. Would the companies be combined or seen as separate?

Ms Kate Levey

They would be combined. The €750 million is a group-wide threshold. If a company is part of a group with worldwide turnover of €750 million, it is in there. It must also, however, be selling a service which is subject to the tax. If it is selling data, the revenue received would be subject to the 3% tax.

Most of the questions I intended asking have been answered. To return briefly to the potential costs, we have data that enable us to arrive at a figure for potential losses of between €120 million and €160 million. In terms of potential revenue, the €45 million figure is not based on accurate data because none is available to us at the moment.

Ms Kate Levey

I would not be so unkind to the European Commission. It has estimated a yield of €5 billion. I was not able to dig into how the Commission arrived at that estimate as there is not much detail in its impact assessment. We calculated that if Ireland accounts for 1% of the population of the European Union, we should receive approximately 1% of the €5 billion yield. I am sure the Commission has a basis for its estimate of €5 billion, but I have not been able to interrogate it. As such, I cannot speak to how the €45 million figure compares with the estimate of cost that we have produced using a bottom-up approach on data that I can see.

Ms Levey has exercised caution and believes the €45 million figure could be on the high side.

Ms Kate Levey

I will outline the specific reason I take that view. The costings we have produced of between €120 million and €160 million assume that sales from Ireland make up between 20% and 25% of the total revenues in the European Union which the Commission believes would be subject to the levy. Given that Ireland has a proportion of the information and communications technology, ICT, sector in the European Union in excess of 30%, I am not sure about the Commission's estimate and judged it be a little on the high side. I should be careful about saying that, however, as I have not seen the underlying data.

Why has Ms Levey not seen the underlying data? Has the Commission not published them or is it not providing them?

Ms Kate Levey

While the impact assessment referred to how the Commission did its analysis, it did not give the actual data and numbers. There has only been one meeting in Brussels since the proposals were published on 21 March. It took place on 11 April and it was dominated by presentations from the Commission. Although questions were asked, many of these have been held over until tomorrow's meeting, which will be the first opportunity to interrogate the proposals in detail. It is not the case that information is being withheld. It was simply not published in the impact assessment produced.

The potential costs will be between €120 million and €160 million and potential revenue will be €45 million. The latter figure does not take into account the cost of administering the proposed tax. Has an analysis been done on the potential cost of administering the tax?

Ms Kate Levey

The Commission has a figure in its impact assessment which estimates it will cost member states approximately €2.5 million to introduce the system for administering the tax. Revenue has, through the VAT mini one-stop-shop, MOSS, system, acquired some experience of introducing a system for collecting tax on behalf of other member states to be shared out among them subsequently. The VAT MOSS system cost Revenue approximately €2.1 million to introduce and it has an annual running cost of approximately €150,000. As such, the Commission's estimate of the cost of introducing the system, at approximately €2.5 million, is probably about right.

Will Ms Levey provide more information on the significant digital presence that would give rise to a company having a taxable presence in a member state? The new directive introduces a new, lower threshold. What was the previous threshold?

Ms Kate Levey

Under the existing international tax rules, to be taxable in a jurisdiction, a company must be either resident in that jurisdiction or, if selling into the jurisdiction, it has to have a physical presence in it. The Commission regards that notion as somewhat outdated. A physical presence in a jurisdiction is not required if a company is selling digital services as companies can sell a significant amount into a country without being physically present in it. The proposal would, for the first time, make a company taxable in a jurisdiction even where it has no physical presence in that jurisdiction. The thresholds the Commission has introduced are that the company must sell either €7 million in digital services into a country or have 100,000 users or 3,000 business contracts in the country. This is a fundamental change in rules under which, until now, companies without a physical presence in a country were not taxable. Now, however, a company that sells into a jurisdiction and meets any of the three taxable thresholds could have a taxable presence somewhere.

The directive proposes making tax deductible in member states. Is it only a suggestion or do the witnesses expect that the measure will be introduced?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

At European level, there will be a debate on whether tax deductibility for digital services should be made mandatory. If the directive stays as it is and is agreed, there will be a policy question. First, there is a technical question, which will be guided by Revenue, as to whether tax would be deductible under our current law. A second question will be whether we would like to change our current law, whether it is deductible or not. If it is not covered off in the directive, there will be discretion for a member state. Our working assumption is that it would be deductible.

Does Ireland have a veto in this area?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes, unanimity is required among member states.

Has the discussion concerning the digital transactions tax been driven by a perception, not so much that Ireland is securing much of the global digital tax revenues and taking 12.5% of them, but that these companies are not paying tax anywhere? Is that a widespread perception? I attended an OECD meeting at which the imposition of another tax was discussed. The perception, which I am not sure anyone mentioned, was that this tax was similar to VAT in that 3% would be added to the cost of the good or service being sold, whether it was advertising or data. This would be done through whatever billing mechanism was in place, with the consumer paying an additional 3% which the national authorities would receive. Could this tax be offset against any tax such companies may be paying in this country?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The origins of the debate stem from the base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, project and a view that aggressive tax planning was taking place and companies were not paying their fair share. As Senator Paddy Burke stated, it will take time to reach agreement internationally on implementing these changes and see their impact in terms of higher tax receipts. We have moved slightly into a different space in which, assuming there is no aggressive tax planning in the future and BEPS has achieved its objective, companies should pay their tax. If one thinks back to older business models, in the past it was very hard to have a significant number of customers or users in a country without having a presence in that country. It is now much more feasible for a company, through legitimate commercial arrangements and without any aggressive tax planning, to have all of its operations in one country while being a significant operator around the world through supplying digital services to users or customers. There is also a change in terms of business models in that historically those who received a service or good paid for it, whereas many people are now using products and services online for which they do not make any financial contribution. Their contribution is effectively watching advertisements or providing data.

The debate is concerned with whether the international tax framework is fit for these new business models. A number of countries, particularly larger states in which these companies do not have a physical presence, are asking whether they should receive some tax revenue. The issue is that there may be a large number of people using a product in a country yet no VAT is being paid because no payment is made from the user to the company. This is really from where the proposal stems. It is partly about aggressive tax planning because of the time delay in the changes kicking in and partly about looking at the international tax framework into the future.

Corporation tax revenue currently stands at approximately €8 billion per annum. Apple employs 9,000 people in Cork and many pharmaceutical, medical devices and other large multinational companies are engaged in genuine production activities. Other companies based here, such as Google, Facebook, PayPal and perhaps Uber, are selling services globally. Does Revenue have a breakdown for the €8 billion in corporation tax receipts to show how much of this figure is generated from purely digital activity vis-à-vis other activities?

Ms Kate Levey

The key issue is that we do not have such a breakdown. Last week, with our annual report, a paper was produced which breaks down corporation tax receipts in a number of ways. We know that 80% of corporation tax receipts come from foreign-owned multinational companies and that 40% of this comes from the top ten multinational companies.

Is that 40% of the 80%?

Ms Kate Levey

No, the top ten multinational companies generate 40% of total receipts. There is, therefore, significant concentration of receipts. We have receipts broken down by NACE sector according to the Central Statistics Office classification. These tell us about the information, communications and technology and retail sectors.

Digital is across all of those sectors. That is the difficulty we had in producing the costings so quickly. Digital companies operate in each of those sectors. Manufacturing companies are increasingly digital. We do not have a breakdown of the digital companies and the corporation tax receipts that they pay. We know that Ireland is a very popular destination for investment by high-tech companies and we get a lot of receipts from the information communication and technology, ICT, sector. We have received up to €1.2 billion from that sector alone. Digital spans all of the sectors and we do not have a breakdown of how much is contributed by that sector.

Is it also fair to say that a good proportion of the ICT sector, companies like Apple which are genuinely manufacturing products and Intel which is genuinely manufacturing wafers or chips in Kildare, are not really digital? Everybody is digital in that we all have mobile phones. Is Ryanair digital because all of its sales revenue is gathered online? It is not; it is selling airline services between countries. Do we have an indication from the EU that it is the Googles, the Facebooks and the PayPals that it is really targeting in terms of the digital economy? Is it that stuff that can be based in the cloud rather than a physical presence as in Kildare or Cork or the chemical, pharmaceutical or medical devices industries? Is that what it is trying to get at? Is Revenue saying it does not have the statistics to breakdown what it is looking at vis-à-vis the total revenue we are collecting?

Ms Kate Levey

There are two different things. Obviously, coming from the Revenue Commissioners, I am very nervous when company names are mentioned. One has the digital services tax directive. The 3% levy on revenues is targeted at a very narrow type of company - companies that make their revenue from advertising revenues or selling data, or those marketplaces that were mentioned as well. The second directive on the significant digital presence is going to capture a much wider cohort of companies.

What one has then is traditional companies. We have a lot of substance, investment and employment here from multinationals. A relatively small cohort of that would be captured by the first directive, but the second directive has a much wider scope and may capture elements of those with more traditional businesses as well and where they sell online.

Does Ms Levey mean the common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB?

Ms Kate Levey

No, I mean the significant digital presence directive. In terms of the digital services tax directive, the 3% on revenue is on a very narrow type of digital services. The second directive is on a much broader scope of digital services that will cut across a broader range of sectors.

In regard to companies that are here for lots of reasons, including a good workforce, an English-speaking workforce, being part of the eurozone and so on, is there a fear the competitive advantage we have in the 12.5% could be undermined by being able to offset these new digital taxes against the corporation these companies are paying here? Is there a risk that some of those companies may not see a relative advantage of being here as opposed to in another country in the EU?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is a question about the international tax framework. We are very committed to the international tax framework which looks to tax being paid where one's production activities happen. The work of the OECD is really about making sure we can look at new business models in the context of the current international tax framework and at where value is added. Our view is that no matter what changes happen, in the long run there will be significant benefits to locating in Ireland. Companies will be able to attribute significant amounts of their value to those traditional production activities, even if we end up in a situation where some value is added to the more modern digital activities.

I refer to a digital services-type tax. I appreciate, and I think it has been acknowledged, that member states will have a veto on these proposals so it is possible that they may not see the light of day anyway but it is important that we look at them in the context that they may happen. If one has EU revenues and a company in Ireland, is it possible that a company may end up having losses in this country which are enhanced because there are profits being charged on a revenue turnover-type basis in other countries and that we might end up taking some kind of a hit for that?

Ms Kate Levey

Even without the company here being loss-making, we will bear the cost of digital services tax that is paid to other jurisdictions because, as mentioned, it is likely to be deductible against Irish taxable income. In respect of companies selling from here, €53 billion or so into the European market, we estimate that 60% to 80% of those revenues will be hit by the digital services tax. If that is deductible against Irish tax, it will cost us between €120 million and €160 million per year. If the companies are loss-making, it would simply enhance their losses forward. That would reduce the amount of corporation tax they would pay in future years. There is a cost to this proposal to the Exchequer.

This may be a question for Mr. Crowley. Has there been a European Commission reaction to the G20 and OECD interim report in terms of the engagement on the digital taxation of the digital economy?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The European Commission is at the OECD table, as are we. The European Commission is clear that it also believes a long-term global solution is the best approach. What may be is different is the level of optimism. The European Commission is suggesting that we may not get there quickly enough for its liking. The European Commission is engaged in this debate at the OECD and everyone around the table believes that a global solution is the best approach.

In terms of enhanced co-operation, is it a runner to have enhanced co-operation in terms of things such as the financial transactions tax? Looking at the US, talk of protectionism, Donald Trump and various other types of approaches, can this really work on a global scale if the EU decides to implement it? Is there not a fear that there could be a tit-for-tat reaction from other parts of the world? There were references to China earlier but I mention other parts of the world.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

There are probably two separate questions there. One concerns enhanced co-operation at EU level, which is when groups of nine or more member states come together and go ahead of the rest of the member states. That is a very specific legal mechanism that is being looked at for financial transaction tax, FTT. There are a number of conditions that would have to be met for that to be used. It would have to be agreed by all member states that unanimous agreement cannot be achieved. There would have to be at least nine member states in favour of this. The Commission would look at whether a number of conditions have been met around whether the enhanced co-operation furthers EU objectives and whether it would not impact other member states. Then there would have to be a vote at European Council level of a qualified majority of member states and one would also have to refer to the European Parliament. There is, therefore, a significant rigmarole to go through for enhanced co-operation. The first condition is that one would have to prove that one cannot get agreement and we are a long way from that. We have had one meeting and are at a very early stage. We are optimistic as we travel down that road that the OECD will have secured agreement at that point.

In terms of the broader question concerning global co-operation, we would be optimistic about that. When the bioenergy and food security, BEFS, project was launched in 2013, the very same questions were asked. There was the view that one will never get the agreement or co-operation of all of those countries. What we are seeing is that the OECD deserves a huge amount of credit for the ability to pull everybody together. We are optimistic that the OECD will meet the deadline and find some consensus here.

Is the European Commission cognisant of the possibility of global trade tension from implementing these types of arrangements and the perception that the EU is going after companies with a significant US component to them as in quite a number of cases these companies - I will try not to name them - are American-based or originate in America?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is probably not my place to comment on transatlantic relationships but the point that there is the potential that this may disproportionately hit US companies is something that has been raised. It is an issue that is on the agenda and is raised at the working party meetings.

Perhaps Ms Levey - I am conscious of confidentiality - might be able to say what percentage of that 80% is US foreign direct investment, FDI?

Ms Kate Levey

I am afraid I do not have those figures at the tips of my fingers, but among the foreign direct investment in Ireland, there is a substantial concentration of investment from US multinationals. I mention IDA figures, which I think go back to 2014. There are 150,000 people employed in US multinationals out of a total of 200,000 people in IDA-assisted firms. That is 75% of the employment being in US firms. A lot of our foreign direct investment is from the US.

What we can take from today's meeting is that Revenue does not really have a breakdown of the €8 billion paid in corporation tax, of which 80% comes from major foreign-owned multinationals, and half of that again, that is 40%, from the top ten payers. Are the top ten payers of corporation tax companies from the United States?

Ms Kate Levey

No, the companies are not all from the United States.

Would seven, eight or nine of the top ten companies be from the United States?

Ms Kate Levey

Vice Chairman, we cannot give that information.

That is fair enough.

Ms Kate Levey

A significant concentration of receipts come from US multinationals.

Is it fair to say that many of them may not be overly impacted by this particular tax because they are generating products, pharmaceuticals, computer chips, laptops and are engaged in manufacturing activity? We have touched on CCCTB, which is not a topic for discussion today and that would probably have a far greater impact on those companies than this interim proposal of a digital services tax. Would those companies have less to fear from a digital transactions tax than some of the companies that can operate effectively in the cloud?

Ms Kate Levey

That is correct. The 3% levy has a very narrow focus, it applies to companies making their revenue from advertising, or being in the marketplace. So yes.

That is why we are saying they account for 1% or 2% of our corporation tax, which is €160 million.

Ms Kate Levey

The Vice Chairman's maths may be better, but it is a small proportion.

I wish to follow up on some of the Vice Chairman's questions. Is it possible that the Department would share the legal concerns it has with the committee members, given that we have a role in the further scrutiny and it would be important that we would get the documents on the Department's legal concerns?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is not as much legal concerns as legal questions around the legal base for the proposal and whether the Commission believes it is mandatory to have a rate or not. It is up to member states to take out the rate, so that questions such as that can be solved during the debates. It is more a case of legal questions than a very particular concern that we have set out in writing.

Will Mr. Crowley share those legal questions with the committee?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I will see what I can do.

My second question is addressed to Ms Levey. In respect of the analysis to which my colleague, Senator Conway-Walsh, referred and which was subject to the FOI, let me clarify for the people listening in that it was done on the basis of not having the facts but we now know what is being proposed. I presume there will be a knock-on effect to some extent on the companies that will be affected. I presume an updated analysis will be done.

Ms Kate Levey

The estimate of €120 million to €160 million in annual costs is from the first directive and that tells members that the Exchequer would suffer a loss of between €120 million to €160 million before we take the yield into account. That is the estimate we have done since the proposals were published on 21 March 2018. We will continue to refine the figures once we learn how the Commission did its numbers. The second directive on significant digital presence would operate if it came in to reallocate taxing rights away from Ireland potentially to bigger market jurisdictions. We are not able to cost that at present, because the commission itself has said in the proposal that it has not given enough detail on how those taxing rights would be reallocated to other jurisdictions. We have not been able to do the numbers on that yet. The figure of €120 million to €160 million is our estimate of the cost of the first directive.

Was the analysis which was the subject of the FOI request on the first or second directive?

Ms Kate Levey

That analysis was done before either directive was published by the Commission. The analysis was on the basis that we knew there was a focus on the digital economy and that tax proposals may be forthcoming in the next number of months. We simply tried to look at what these companies make as a contribution to the Irish Exchequer.

An element of the analysis in that exercise was that it could impact on job numbers. I wonder where that sits now. Did that form part of the new analysis which looks at the cost of €120 to €160 or was it based solely on the digital services tax, dst?

Ms Kate Levey

That is a fair question. In regard to the first directive, because the tax will be levied according to the place that the supplies are made, it does not impact on the decision by companies of where they should invest and from where they should sell because they will face the same amount of digital services tax whether they are selling from Ireland or another jurisdiction. However, the second directive, in common with the CCCTB that we have discussed previously, would result in a different allocation of a company's tax base, across other jurisdictions, possibly more towards larger market countries. When we talk about potential impact on payroll receipts, what we are referring to is the extent that the second directive might impact on a company's decision on where it will set up its base and where will it sell from. If the company decides that its profits will be allocated towards larger member states and less of its profits will be in Ireland, which has a 12.5% rate, that may impact on where it will decide to invest. As I have said, that is a speculative question on how attractive Ireland will be as a destination for foreign direct investment if the international tax rules change and allow profits to be allocated to larger market countries.

Ms Levey states that the questions can be answered definitively by the companies themselves. There is a certain amount of ambiguity in relation to that. The company has to decide whether it is caught in this net. At the beginning of the year, the company will probably decide to charge 3% extra for advertising or information and the company will charge their customers 3% to make up for the 3% digital services tax that the company will pay. At the end of the year they may find that their turnover did not reach the turnover criteria of €750 million world wide or they may have less than €50 million of a turnover in Europe, so that they will not have to pay the 3% digital services tax then. Is the Commission leaving this up to the company themselves?

Ms Kate Levey

The digital services tax is a self-assessment tax, that is where the idea comes from that the company must determine whether it has a liability, but of course it will be determining that in accordance with the rules in the directive. It is simply that we do not know in advance whether it will be liable. Perhaps companies should know themselves.

Companies may not know at the beginning of the year that they will have a liability to pay this 3% digital services charges. They may not fall within the category by the end of the year.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

As the directive is worded at present, it is based on prior year thresholds, so the idea is that if one meets the threshold in year one, the tax has to be paid on the supplies in year two. That question is addressed in the proposal. The assumption being is that if one is above the threshold this year, one likely will be around the threshold the following year. They will know at the start.

They will have to have a basis and some reason as to why there are collecting 3% extra tax.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The company will have to make a commercial decision. The company will work out in year one whether they fall within the threshold.

They could be collecting this tax and they may not reach the thresholds at all.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

If they reach it the following year, they must apply it

If they did not reach it the following year-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

My understanding is that they would not have to apply it that year.

The company could pocket it.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is a commercial choice for companies what they charge.

This is an open book for companies that are in the €500 million turnover bracket, hoping to reach €750 million. They want to collect this 3% and when they do not reach the €750 million, so the company will have an extra 3% turnover.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

There is a competitive aspect of any tax like this that comes in at a threshold. There is a difference in treatment between a company just above the threshold and just below. That is a fact of any tax that has a threshold.

An aggressive company could reach the €750 million but for whatever reason another company may not reach it. If they did not collect the money, the company would be in bother. They could experience serious financial difficulties if they were not able to pay.

Ms Kate Levey

To be clear, the tax is payable by the company in respect to the Revenue. Unlike VAT, which is payable by the customer, the tax is payable by the company, but calculated on the revenues.

It is based on turnover.

Ms Kate Levey

Yes, absolutely, it is based on turnover and the Senator is correct that the company may pass on the costs.

The company may be working on a tight margin and they must make provision.

Ms Kate Levey

Yes. They may pass on the costs.

The ambiguity of Ms Levey's comments is unbelievable.

I made a similar point. A company will look at what it is charging and add 3% and generate extra revenue for the country involved.

Ultimately, however, there is a possibility that the company will then charge extra but offset that extra charge against the Irish corporation tax it had been paying previously. The company would not be affected while the consumer would pay more and the State would lose. Is that a fair assessment of what could happen?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The company would pay a little more because it would be deducting the digital service tax against corporate income. The company is not getting credit against the tax. Therefore, the company would have a higher tax bill overall. The company would reduce the income it is paying on corporate tax.

The company would pass it on to the consumer. Is that not correct? Company shareholders will not lose, but the consumer and the State will lose. The country in which the users are based will gain at our expense. The shareholders of the digital companies in question will potentially not lose in any way.

Technically, if a company did not reach the targets set down it could have an extra 3%.

That would arise because the company would not have to pay it over.

Ms Kate Levey

It is difficult to say with certainty. The impact assessment refers to whether a company can afford to pass on the cost, but certainly the scenario you are outlining, Vice Chairman, is probably possible.

No one has referred to tax sovereignty. Are we sure or have we any doubt that the suggestion of a 3% rate is taking away from the sovereignty of Ireland in terms of deciding on tax policy? I do not think there is any other EU rule like it at the moment. There is provision for a range of corporation tax rates or VAT rates. As far as I am aware there has never been a 3% rate or any percent that every country must charge. Would this have any impact on our sovereignty? Would it impact on subsidiarity in the sense that the Commission or the EU would be deciding to make rules more strictly than previously? Does anyone have a view on that?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The question with member states is that whenever they agree a directive there is an exchange of sovereignty. Member states agree common rules on doing something or not doing something.

You asked about subsidiarity, Vice Chairman. The test for subsidiarity looks at whether common action is the most effective way to solve a problem and whether the proposed action is proportionate to solve that problem. The big question that we have is the nature of the problem we are trying to solve and whether the problem is sufficiently defined. That is what the OECD is working on. The OECD is attempting to see whether the current rules and the rules post the base erosion and profit shifting work are in line with ensuring tax is paid where the value is created. That work is ongoing.

The witnesses have already alluded to the fact that the Minister for Finance takes the view that the common consolidated corporate tax base proposal is better looked at through a global approach. Is that correct? The committee has expressed a similar view.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

From the beginning of the base erosion and profit shifting project we have been in favour of global tax reform. Business is global and the rules need to be global too.

Is it fair to say that these proposals are probably premature in terms of all the other work done by the OECD on a global basis?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

There is a legitimate viewpoint to the effect that the proposals could be considered premature given the ongoing work at the OECD.

Has the Minister had discussions with any of the companies that are likely to be affected by this?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I am not aware of any particular discussions the Minister has had. I could not say that he has not had such discussions, but I am not aware of any particular discussions with any particular companies.

There are no further contributions from members. Thank you all for being here today. Thank you for your opening statements and the enlightening conversation with members.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.35 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 May 2018.
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