I welcome the delegation from Concern. Irish man, Mr. Tom Arnold, is the chief executive of Concern worldwide. Mr. Dominic Crowley is head of the emergency unit. Ms Bríd Kennedy is the regional director for southern Africa and Ms Ciunas Bunworth is the deputy regional director for the Horn of Africa. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is answering questions today in the House at 3.15 p.m. Deputies Michael Higgins and Gay Mitchell will have to leave to attend priority questions.
Food Crisis in Africa: Presentation.
It is not that we are not interested in this subject.
Concern has been invited here today to give its views on the food situation in Africa which is moving towards a crisis. Members have been circulated with a paper which is an assessment by senior Concern staff of the current food situation in Ethiopia which, in their words, provides a graphic picture of a country slipping towards an abyss. Concern believes that Ireland has an opportunity to show leadership at EU level in support of a major response to the crisis in Ethiopia and other parts of the African continent.
Before we commence with the presentation, I remind the meeting that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I invite Mr. Arnold to begin the presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Mr. Tom Arnold
I am glad to have this opportunity to address the committee. I appreciate that the committee is focusing on this major issue of foreign policy. The extent of the humanitarian crisis in Africa is relevant in terms of Irish and European foreign policy and world policy.
We have circulated a paper which I will not discuss in detail. We have included the facts, figures and analysis. The central message is that Africa is facing an unprecedented food crisis. It is bad at present, but it will get worse in the next number of months. It is unprecedented because of the number of countries about which we are talking. There have been crises in Africa at other times. We all remember the Ethiopian crisis in the mid-1980s. What is different now is that there are a number of countries in southern Africa, in the Horn of Africa and elsewhere of which people may not be aware. The map at the front of the document indicates where the problems are and the first table indicates the extent of the problem. Although the paper mentions the range of countries where the problem exists, we want to focus on two main areas, the Horn of Africa, particularly Ethiopia and Eritrea, and southern Africa where we think the problems are most severe in Zimbabwe. In the Horn of Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, what is most significant is how quickly this problem has become worse. One of the legacies of the 1980s crisis was that early warning systems were put in place in Ethiopia which have been working over the years. They involve regular assessments of the food situation. As late as September, the accepted analysis of the food situation was that it was bad but not desperate. At that stage there were three scenarios. The best case scenario was that about six million people would be at risk, while the worst case scenario involved upwards of 12 to 15 million people being at risk. The key factor in determining which of those scenarios would come about was whether or not the rains would arrive in October. The rains did not come, however, and given the current situation in Ethiopia it looks as if 12 million people will be at risk. They will be dependent on imported food aid because they have neither the ability to produce food, nor the money to purchase it.
The international community is quite well informed and up to date on this situation. The large numbers of people affected are generally accepted as being a realistic assessment. Our reports and experiences have caused us to become more nervous. Concern has been working in Ethiopia since 1973 and we undertake regular tracking surveys of the nutrition situation.
Attached to the back of the document we have circulated to members is a table which shows how the level of malnutrition has developed over the past two years in a particular area in which we have been working. The most recent figures for November 2002 are significant because this is the time when the harvest in Ethiopia has just been completed. Therefore, the malnutrition rates should be falling, but instead they are at a significant level and the hungry months are still ahead. "The hungry months" is a phrase with which we in Ireland are familiar. The paper we have circulated summarises what I have been talking about. There are high levels of malnutrition combined with high morbidity rates which contribute to the development of an overall picture of a population which is sliding steadily towards crisis and increasingly vulnerable from a food, health and economic perspective.
We are also witnessing in Ethiopia a number of what would be considered classic pre-famine indicators, such as large increases in grain prices, livestock being disposed of, reductions in the price of assets and increased levels of destitute people due to unemployment.
The situation in Ethiopia is beginning to receive some attention but neighbouring Eritrea has not been attracting the same amount of attention. It has a much smaller population of approximately four million, but about 70% of them are in need of food aid. Much work has been done and the international community has not been idle in trying to respond to this situation. Both the Americans and the EU have increased their allocations, but the question is whether that food can be transported into the countries quickly enough and then distributed. The situation in Ethiopia and Eritrea is serious and it is literally a race against time.
In southern Africa this year's main crop, which would be harvested in April and May, was severely restricted in a number of countries. The reasons are mainly drought-related, although there are political factors in certain countries. In addition, HIV-Aids is beginning to have a major impact in southern Africa. In Zimbabwe the crop was about 30% of the normal level, while in Malawi it was 30% below the normal harvest. In recent months there has been a slow decline. Zimbabwe is most at risk because of the general level of economic deterioration. It is experiencing massive inflation and there has been a complete devaluation of the local currency. There are very serious problems in Zimbabwe. There is a risk that while matters are currently continuing at a certain pace, they could rapidly decline.
We are conscious that Concern has to try to deal with a short-term crisis, but we must also consider the long-term dimension. I will not go into details in this opening presentation, but we must be aware of the situation. There are many facets to the long-term issue of food security in Africa. I have referred in the paper to two of those facets. The first deals with the overall issue of agricultural policy and the second deals with the spread of HIV-Aids. As regards policy, it is clear that if there is to be a solution to food security in Africa, governments there and donor agencies will have to pay more attention to the agricultural sector. There is no question but that it has been a significant failure. I am not saying, by any means, that it is up to donors to solve Africa's food problem. The fundamental responsibility for this lies with African governments and the choices they make, but they have to be helped as well. There has to be more investment in improving agricultural productivity as well as better research. That is something with which, I know, the Chairman would fully agree.
The issue of rural infrastructure also arises with regard to these countries.
May I interrupt Mr. Arnold at this stage to allow Deputy Mitchell to ask a question?
Like me, my colleagues have a strong interest in this matter. We will work together in any way we can to pursue this issue. Perhaps we should think of preparing a report for the House, Chairman. We have spent too much time defending the EU rapid reaction force. Perhaps we should get that force to deliver food to the places Mr. Arnold mentioned. That would be a real humanitarian gesture. We are all interested in this issue and that is why we wanted Mr. Arnold to attend today. The committee will actively pursue the matter and I will be actively involved.
Mr. Arnold
I wish to touch on some of the other issues which relate to the longer term, one of which is rural infrastructure. That area does not receive much attention but it is fundamental in ensuring that agricultural systems work. We also wish to draw the committee's attention to the role of women in food production in Africa. Clearly, there needs to be greater recognition of their importance and their contribution needs to be facilitated. The joint committee also has to take account of the fact that agricultural production in Africa takes place within the wider context of international agricultural policy.
There is no doubt that aspects of international agricultural policy are inimical to long-term food security in Africa. Agricultural subsidisation, particularly at EU and US level, is a critical factor. Looking to the long-term, the question of having a fairer international trading system must be addressed. That raises important issues for Ireland and Europe generally, particularly in the context of the current development round of WTO talks.
Another area of fundamental long-term significance for food security in Africa is the scale of the HIV-Aids crisis. Deputy O'Donnell is familiar with this problem and she supported initiatives on it when she was Minister of State. The scale of the crisis has to be seen to be believed. There are 30 million people on the African continent who are suffering from the virus. Last year three million people died from it and a similar number were infected. It is having the most profound effects on all aspects of life. This includes getting rid of talented and productive human resources. It also directly impacts on food production capacity. A level of experience has been lost among peasant farmers which is related to the question of morbidity and so on. It is a significant issue. Longer term food security is not solely concerned with agricultural technology but with finding ways to help people in rural areas sustain levels of food production. These are the set of longer and shorter term issues with which we are dealing. We appreciate that this committee considered it important enough to consider them.
Thank you for that introduction. This committee regards this as one of its top priorities. We are interested in pursuing the question as far as possible and in giving you as much support as we can. Your documentation is very impressive. The investigations you have undertaken and the trouble you have gone to in indicating the present position is striking. It indicates that at least you know what you are talking about and that you have quantified a great deal of it. It is very helpful to the committee.
Your documentation on the assessment to Ethiopia in November 2002 was exceptionally helpful. I note that between ten and 14 million people face starvation and the structural food deficit, which is ongoing, runs at 700,000 tonnes of grain, but in these exceptional circumstances it now stands at three times that figure, at more than 2 million tonnes. It is important to ensure that people are aware that, bad as the situation has been, this year is exceptional. Market prices have doubled.
On the question of donors, the European Union says it will not provide any funding in respect of Ethiopia until March 2003 and it may only provide 60,000 to 70,000 tonnes this year. According to your documentation, the Union is preparing a new emergency fund aid programme worth €70 million, equivalent to 260,000 tonnes and one tenth of the possible food aid needs for the coming year. Will this aid be provided sooner, given that your documentation indicates that nothing will be provided in the early months of next year?
Mr. Arnold
The European Union is making significant efforts. It has provided extra money and it is now a question of mobilising the food and getting it in as quickly as possible. The speed of its delivery is probably the crucial issue.
It is interesting that the United States is fully involved and it is seen by the people in Ethiopia as the most important of the donors. However, there are fears that a war in Iraq may alter this. It is also noted that Ireland Aid made €1 million available. An extra €1 million has been provided in the meantime. You want the European Union to dramatically increase its aid and you have made progress in that regard. I will now take questions from committee members.
I welcome Mr. Arnold and his colleagues. The last time I visited Ethiopia there was a food security crisis and I saw the great work done by Concern on the ground and on supplementary feeding programmes. It has saved people from malnutrition, particularly lactating mothers and babies. It is horrifying that hunger on this scale could be again visited on Ethiopia. Given that the country has been one of our long-term developing partners, Ireland has a singular responsibility to galvanise world support from other donors.
When I visited the country, it was striking to travel from an area where the situation was very bad to one nearby where people were all right. In this context, transport difficulties will arise again. Has there been an improvement in the transportation capacity to ensure that once food arrives in the country it will reach far flung regions, especially rural areas?
The Ethiopians and the Ethiopian Government have probably gained much experience in dealing with crises of this kind. Do you consider that at this stage they have better administrative coping mechanisms? Given that the country has a food security problem at the best of times, I agree with the view that the major donors should concentrate in a longer term way on agricultural policy. I hope the Government will support that approach.
With regard to the issue of gender and the role of women, all of the Government's programmes in Africa are tested for their impact on women. We try to engage women in the democratic institutions at local level. That is a key factor.
Does the presence of a United Nations peace keeping force make matters easier? It must in so far as people are no longer living with conflict as well as hunger. You say up to 20 million people are in danger of starvation. Is that the worst possible scenario or is it a matter of prediction, given the vulnerability of certain sectors in the population?
Mr. Dominic Crowley
Before turning to the question of transportation, I refer you to the period of April to May 2000. Basically what we were talking about then was the period before the belg harvest and to get a particular group of extremely vulnerable people through to the belg harvest. The belg harvest accounts for only 20% of the annual food needs. Therefore the uneven pattern of food insecurity would have been reflected by the relevant dependence that the different areas have on the belg and the mer harvests.
What we are talking about now is a situation where we have comparable levels of food insecurity within a few weeks of the main harvest, the mer harvest, having been gathered. This should be providing 80% of the country's food need. Across the country, going from the highly productive areas right through the very vulnerable areas in the north and south, there has been a failure of around 50% in some areas. Within weeks of the main harvest there are malnutrition rates in our programme areas of around 20%, which would be the trigger for a looming famine.
It is a very different situation to what you would have seen in 2000. The problem is far more serious and widespread. On the hunger gap, it is not a question of keeping people alive for a couple of months, rather it is an issue of keeping them alive for at least the next year, with the consequent impact that people have not got seeds to plant for their next harvest. Potentially we are looking at a very serious situation for two years.
On transportation, it is not just an issue of movement; there is an absolute deficit. Unless the deficit of food can be addressed, then the issue of transportation is not relevant. There are several issues arising on the issue of transportation and the availability of vehicles and they are issues which we discussed with the DPPC commissioner when we were in Ethiopia the other week. The joint transport operation - JTO - which was in place was broken up. The vehicles which were part of the JTO have been privatised and have been given out to private hauliers. In talking to the deputy commissioner and the commissioner, they are convinced there is capacity. We have serious concerns about the physical capacity of the number of trucks, we have concerns about the quality of the physical infrastructure in terms of the roads and we have concerns about the reliance on Djibouti as the only port of serious entry for food coming into the country. If one were to attempt to bring in about two million tonnes of food through a second country through a port which has limited capacity where the grain needs to be unloaded and bagged and put onto trucks and moved out, we would have reservations that the capacity exists to allow that to happen as quickly as it needs to happen.
The war has had a huge impact on the economy of the country and its ability to recover and respond to this emergency. The war may have finished, but it was a pointless war. It has achieved nothing other than the deaths of tens of thousands of people and it has long-term structural implications for the country.
We believe the figure of 20 million people is the top figure. At present the prime minister is talking in terms of 15 million people. The post-mer assessments state there are four million people in immediate need and another three million people at risk. However, they contain the proviso that if the harvest is not all they believe it will be, then more people could be at risk. We believe the figure of 20 million people, about one third of the population. This is the figure for one country only.
There is a suggestion that Port Sudan and Berbera would be possible alternative points. Apparently the EU has been using Berbera throughout the past year or so and intends to do so in 2003.
Mr. Crowley
Berbera is in north Somalia. If one brings in small amounts of food or supplies infrequently, one will probably get them through. However, if one starts bringing in large amounts of food on a frequent basis, then all the problems of north Somalia come into play. If one tries to bring in supplies through Port Sudan, the distance and the time that will take and the additional infrastructural requirements are overwhelming. Although the DPPC talk optimistically about the potential of other ports, the reality is that we will be 80% - 90% dependent on Djibouti.
Incidentally, the DPPC is the Disaster Prevention and Preparedness Commission.
Mr. Crowley
It is the part of the Government which is responsible for co-ordinating all the emergency responses and detailing with disasters. It was set up, as Mr. Arnold mentioned, after the last major famine in 1984.
The belg is the rainy season in the early part of the year, from February to April.
What is in front of us is a horror story. The only bright side to it is that at least we know the predictions in advance. To some degree, I speak from experience about such horror stories in Africa because I well remember going to Ethiopia at the height of the famine in the 1980s and going into what I can only describe as death camps and being met with bodies coming out on tarpaulins and poles. From there on, it was an unfolding picture of horror which was utterly traumatic. Anybody who would experience that would certainly be 110% on board any effort to try to improve and alleviate the situation.
That brings me to my main question. I know Concern is doing everything possible to try to cope with the situation. Can we do anything further to help in any way? I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, will visit Africa next month and no doubt will come back to us with a report. The question is: what can be done by us, as Members of Parliament and as members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs? Can we help by highlighting the issue in any way? Can we help by seeking regular reports? Can we help by asking Concern to come back to us on a regular basis every two or three months until this crisis is over so that we can keep on top of the issue by helping Concern to continue to highlight the huge catastrophe unfolding and the need for everybody to fully support the rescue effort? We must bear in mind that Concern mentions that a Band Aid solution is not wanted. I remember the Band Aid and Live Aid solutions. I remember that my party was in Government at the time contributing to Live Aid. Essentially, Concern wants immediate rescue efforts but it also wants something that will provide medium-term steps to ensure it does not recur. It is a simple question. There is a great deal of goodwill amongst the Irish people and it should be reflected among the Members of the Parliament and of this committee. Essentially what can we do to help?
We should take some of the other questions first.
If ever one can be ready for a catastrophe, we are as ready as we are likely to be for this one. May I broaden the debate to include an issue that was touched on by Mr. Arnold and Deputy O'Donnell? About two and a half or three weeks ago, Deputy Quinn and myself, on behalf of the committee, met with the vice-president of the World Bank for Europe and Africa who was here on a visit. He indicated that while Ireland Aid and the NGOs, and indeed other countries' programmes, were doing good work of the Band Aid-type and development work, he seemed to suggest that Government policy, including Ireland's, would need to aim at a more long-term strategic view of supporting development questions. He raised issues like the role of women and better education and Ireland, as a highly skilled country, not being very helpful to the middle ranking country - not the First World or Third World countries but those in between. Do Mr. Arnold and his colleagues have a view on what longer term and strategic adjustments ought to be made to Ireland's development aid policy? I do not suppose one is ever going to stop these type of crises occurring, but we must try to minimise their scale.
I welcome the presentation from our visitors. Mr. Arnold mentioned the greater recognition of the role women play in food production. He talked about discrimination in terms of property and land tenure rights. Is this the case in many African countries? I have limited experience of such countries, but consuls in a number of them pointed out that if a small, extra parcel of land was given to women involved in food production it would make a significant difference.
As a committee and as individuals, what can we do?
Concern asked us to follow up on the question of the EU's involvement in an earlier document. That position has changed with the provision of €70 million by the Union. That presumably will be provided for immediate food aid. What is the position in terms of the Union providing staff? Concern has increased its number of mentors and community workers in Africa. Does the EU provide much assistance in this regard?
APSO received a significant increase in the Estimates. The committee did not have an opportunity to discuss them with the Minister, but a substantial increase was provided under the subhead dealing with personnel overseas. Staff are important in terms of development aid. What is the EU's long-term plan in this area?
I refer to irrigation. Parts of the world have been transformed by the provision of water through the creation of great lakes, etc. Major projects could be provided in this area. What is Concern's opinion?
A committee delegation visited the UN recently and a report will be produced shortly on that. We met various people and we pressed many of the points in which Concern is interested. We make representations at all relevant fora because we very much support his organisation's efforts in this regard. The report provided by Concern to the committee refers to the long-term development of education, health and agriculture. If significant development takes places in these sectors, it will have a major impact.
The people of the EU have advanced significantly in terms of their level of knowledge and wealth. Much of the technology and resources available could be applied to prevent food crises in the future. Concern has mapped out the road well for anyone who wants to make a contribution in these African countries. I agree with Deputy O'Keeffe and others that an action plan is needed to map out how we can support Concern in its work and what are the principal needs.
Mr. Arnold
A number of members asked about what the committee could do. The primary thing it can do is keep attention focused on this issue. I know the committee will meet the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt, and we acknowledge the work he has done since succeeding Deputy O'Donnell at the Department. The quality of the Irish aid programme is good and its basic emphasis is correct. It focuses on poverty in a number of countries and it has had a long-term relationship with Ethiopia. All these things are headed in the right direction and this committee, by monitoring what is happening, can support those well-directed efforts.
There is an issue about the leadership role the Government can play in highlighting these issues, to which the Chairman referred in his opening contribution, particularly in encouraging the EU to do the right things. The EU, broadly speaking, is trying to do the right things. Sometimes they do not happen quickly enough, but Ireland should play a key role in such issues by going to the EU and using the Union's influence in these matters. I would be delighted to come back to discuss these issues with committee as matters unfold and we hope to continue to bring back relevant, up to the minute information.
Deputy O'Keeffe referred to this horror story, but at least it is known about in advance. It is important to acknowledge that, by comparison with the mid-1980s, both Ethiopia and the international community are much better equipped to deal with a problem. However, the problem is that the scale of what we are facing will challenge that greater capacity to cope. The basic difficulty faced by a country such as Ethiopia is its sheer poverty, which means that when a setback such as a poor harvest or a lack of rain occurs it slides down rapidly and its capacity to cope is challenged.
The only way to deal with that is to address poverty in the long-term through investing in education and the various areas we have discussed. Education will ultimately be the key for these countries as well as addressing productivity in their agricultural sectors and examining their natural resource bases. In this regard, the water issue is of definite important. Ethiopian agriculture is 97% rain-fed. When the rains do not come, it has a major impact. We are talking about sensible, small-scale irrigation schemes people can manage and cope with, not the huge schemes which, for the most part, have proven to be failures.
We discussed the comments of the World Bank representative a few weeks ago. He was talking about investing in long-term, strategic operations for development, which ultimately must tackle poverty. Development issues in African countries and elsewhere come back to the role of women, as this is of primary importance if these societies are to get out of poverty. The status of women in these societies, as well as their lack of economic power, must be addressed in these societies. This relates to education to ensure that girls have the same opportunity as boys in terms of attending school and that there is fairness in land tenure systems. This is a general problem and is not confined to Ethiopia.
The EU has its own long-term relationship with Ethiopia and other countries. Food security is part of its significant plan for Ethiopia, but the wider question of the importance of agriculture in donor aid policy must be given more direct recognition. Interestingly enough, the Americans have focused on this. I do not think the European Union has focused on it as clearly as it should. This is where Ireland can play a role. The Government is beginning to examine the importance of agriculture in rural development, a matter on which a special committee is working and to which the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, may well wish to refer tomorrow.
Those are the general issues. I hope I have covered most of them. I cannot say in detail what is the issue with the European Union or APSO about staffing in relation to Ethiopia, but there is no doubt that, if one wants to solve anything, trained human resources are going to be crucial.
The documentation the delegation has given us is impressive, up to date and helpful. We would like to know the best way to help. I understand what was said about maintaining an emphasis. The joint committee has been doing this, even in the short period since its establishment. It was not established earlier because of the formation of the new Dáil and committees and a technical committee had to be established. We have been up and running for the past month or so. We hope to maintain the emphasis, meet the delegation and be in constant touch with it on its activities which are hugely important.
While I am delighted to see the European Union responding to the extent outlined, I agree that one must get involved with agriculture at grass roots level. I say this in the knowledge that the delegation has been involved at that level all along. We used to say a long time ago - I do not want to say how long - that if a person could make two blades of grass grow where one had grown before, that person had made a real contribution. That happened in Ireland and became much more sophisticated as time passed. It must be possible to do the same in the case outlined, notwithstanding the difficulties.
I formally thank the delegation for attending and for its presentation which was informative, helpful and technically well-based. It was also, as some members said, disturbing. All we have to do is look at the pictures of young children and others suffering from starvation. We will have an opportunity to discuss the issues raised with the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, at our meeting tomorrow. The delegation can be assured that we will continue to highlight this area. We have decided that the main committee will maintain an interest in it, even though a sub-committee will be dedicated to the area of overseas development aid.
May I ask a question about the response of the United Nations to date? Does Mr. Arnold think that the United Nations and the World Food Programme are sufficiently mobilised and cognisant of the scale of the looming disaster? Is this something we could raise at the Security Council as we vacate our seat on it? In our two years as a member the Security Council we have always kept humanitarian issues to the fore, even after 11 September when other matters took over. We always made it one of our policies to keep humanitarian issues, especially African issues, centre-stage. Does Mr. Arnold think it would be useful for us at this stage to use the Security Council before we leave it to raise awareness internationally of the gravity of the situation?
Mr. Arnold
It may well be as a parting thought on behalf of Ireland to highlight this. The UN system is not unaware of the gravity of the situation. I think the World Food Programme is going to make a further appeal this week to highlight the scale of the problem. I do not think the problem is one of awareness; it is a question of resources to deal with it. We are talking about very big food gaps which cost an awful lot of money to fill. I was in the United States last week where I met the head of US Aid, Mr. Natsios. He was going to see if he could wring more money out of Congress.
At EU level, there is something going through the European Parliament this week which will formally ratify the figure of €70 million. The question is whether this will be enough ultimately to deal with the problem. This is where a continual close watch on what is happening on the ground is of crucial importance.
While we were in Ethiopia we found the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA, the body dealing with the issue, to be excellent and impressive, even in comparison with other groups we met. It was very much in touch with matters. Its appeal this time is for $3 billion, although $2 billion is as much as it had previously. It is conscious of this. It is also trying to find methods to obtain other donors. When we were there, I raised the issue of large companies working there and the possibility of the United Nations putting pressure on them. The week before the group had actually prepared a document to do this and is now making a renewed approach to try to obtain substantial support, especially where such companies operate in specific areas. It is true that it is keenly involved.
The point should be made at this forum that overall overseas development aid levels are declining rather than increasing. While Ireland is bucking this trend, it needs to be said at every political forum that the world is not responding adequately to poverty in Africa. It is when we have a potential famine on this scale that it comes home to roost. It is evidence of a failure by global politics to support poor countries at a time of plenty elsewhere in the world.
I reassure Concern regarding the Government programme which the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, will outline that we have flexibility. We have a major budget for Ethiopia for long-term development and it will be possible for us to move money around and raid some of the long-term resources to respond immediately to the disaster.
Mr. Arnold
The Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, has already indicated that is what he intends to do in the revised Estimates, which will be coming up in February. This is perhaps where the committee can contribute. There is, clearly, a compelling case at this stage in the light of how matters have evolved since the Estimates were framed in October. By the time February comes along more emergency humanitarian money will be needed.
We will have an opportunity to discuss the matter tomorrow. I thank the delegation for attending.
The joint committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m.