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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 24 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 14

Death Penalty: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Billy Colbert, Mr. Alan Smith and Mr. Aiden O'Leary of the Roger Collins support group. As members may be aware from their briefing material, Mr. Roger Collins is a death row prisoner in the United States. Mr. Colbert and his group have been in contact with Mr. Collins and will make a presentation to us this morning, which will last from 15 to 20 minutes. Following the presentation by Mr. Colbert and his colleagues I am sure we will have some questions.

Before we commence I remind the meeting that whilst members of the committee are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I call on Mr. Colbert to commence his presentation.

Mr. Billy Colbert

Good morning, I am from Portlaoise and I am accompanied by AidenO'Leary and Alan Smith. I would like to talk about the death penalty, which is an enormous issue. I wish to provide a horrific example of how it does not work and should not be employed. It should be removed forever.

I thank Deputy Seán Fleming and former Deputy Tom Enright who co-sponsored the twenty-first amendment to the Constitution which abolished the death penalty here.

In simple terms, Roger Collins had a horrific childhood and has continued to suffer the same horrific life for almost the past 26 years on death row in Jackson, Georgia. He is an only son and members of the committee will see more details in the document entitled "A life in the balance", which is a glimpse of how he sees his life. The conditions under which he views his life today are rather peculiar and restricted.

We became involved in his case following the publication of an article in Ireland’s Own in 1997. Someone asked me to write to Roger Collins and, unbeknownst to me, at the same time, Aiden O’Leary was also writing to him. In January 1998 we met in Carlow to discuss how we could proceed. At that time, although not knowing what might be ahead of us, we agreed that the journey, if one could call it that, could lead to the execution of Roger Collins. That is an enormous thing to be aware of and a party to. What Roger Collins and his family have continued to go through for so many years is immeasurable, even for someone who may have suffered personal tragedy, trauma or loss in their own lives.

We proceeded to contact the media and checked with O. J. Simpson's lawyer, Mr. Johnny Cochran. In addition, we spoke to Professor Barry Sheck who was also involved in the O. J. Simpson trial, as well as the English nanny "shaken baby syndrome" case. Professor Sheck is an international expert on DNA. Mr. Cochran thought about the case for a number of days and left us swinging in the air, because it was unusual for him to get a phone call from Ireland about such a matter. I am sure he had political reservations about who we were but we clearly said that we were not connected to any group that would endanger us or that in which we were involved. Mr. Cochran nominated a lawyer who had experience of dealing with capital murder cases.

Members of the committee will see enclosed in the document a letter from a lawyer who took his case to the US Supreme Court which overturned the death sentence. Unfortunately, however, the State of Georgia's Supreme Court did not accept the decision. The letter, which he signed, clearly outlines a couple of reasons why the US Supreme Court overturned the death sentence, including ineffective counsel, corrupt evidence and a corrupt process.

The lawyer had been successful many times when dealing with issues such as those involved in Roger Collins's life in having such cases overturned. That would indicate that the southern states of America seem to have, for want of a better way of putting it, a different take on the death penalty than some other regions of the USA. I do not wish to be seen as either anti or pro-American in any shape or form. The death penalty has no humanity or geographical boundaries. Anyone reading what is being stated here today will clearly appreciate that we are neither pro nor anti-American.

In 1998 our first visit to death row was an enormous event and very alien to us. My background is of a military nature but I had never seen a prison or such an institution here or in the neighbouring island, which was anything like death row in that American prison. That says much about the treatment, or more importantly the maltreatment, of human beings there. We spent some time with Mr. Collins and challenged him all the way. It is easy to say that one is innocent but there is a process of proof, which grows clearer with time. It shows that Roger Collins is but one of many innocent people on death row. The death penalty is an inhuman and depraved system and represents the blackest cloud hanging over the judicial process throughout the world. It merits no other description.

We challenged the system all the way and talked to the lawyers involved but the death penalty occurs so often in America that it is accepted almost nonchalantly and is no longer disturbing to people there. When we understand what that means, it says so much about the death penalty.

In the southern states of America, to be black means more than just being different culturally or socially - it means more in a family sense also. I would like to give the committee the background to what happened in this case. In or around August 1977, Roger Collins had left his home because of massive violence, including violations of his personal integrity in the fullest sense. His mother had married a man who shot her in the neck and subsequently shot her in the hip, paralysing her. That is a sample glimpse of the horrific upbringing of Roger Collins.

I abhor using the phrase "born outside wedlock" or whatever such term is used nowadays. That was his background but it should not lessen his right to dignity. He was treated to gross physical violence, including attempted strangulation and asphyxiation by various methods. This is not the abuse excuse syndrome which is offered by some circles, it is a recognition of what a human being can endure. Roger Collins is only a symptom of a population who are not treated as human beings.

We began to make contact with other groups. We met a man who spent 22 years on death row in Texas - that is not meant to be a reference to the current leader of the country - and subsequently walked free. The proof established his innocence, yet he was held for four years before being granted his freedom.

In 1998, we appeared on television in Ireland with a white lady called Sonya Jacobs whose husband was truly innocent, not just in a technical or legal sense. Her situation was horrendous because her husband had suffered a botched execution, which means that he was executed twice in the one venue on the same day. I am not an expert on the physical damage caused by internal convulsions but what it does to a human being is nauseating. If that is justice, the cloud gets blacker.

Later, we met Professor Barry Sheck. He looked at the case and we subsequently discovered various issues - more than what is contained in the file we have submitted to this meeting - dealing with the wrongs of the case and the corruption involved.

It is difficult to describe in language what death row is like. One becomes bankrupt of any definition when one enters the world of death row. Who you are, what you are, what you have, what you do not have, what you desire or what are your aspirations are of no value. One is totally bankrupted by the experience and one lives at a level one would not ordinarily live, trying to understand, communicate and hear the silence of language in a place like that. That continues to be the case for Roger Collins.

I hope the Chairman will present each one of you with a syringe, which is a slick and sham way of saying that we inject people. We do not. We execute people. Homicide is homicide, whether it be done by stones, swords, shooting, hanging or any other method. We may change the instrument of death, but it is still an instrument of death. I hope you will take a syringe. What you will see in it is not life, justice, humanity or politics. If it evoked the word "deterrence" it would not last too long. The language of deterrence is folly, manipulative and it instils fear in people. It brings about laws that we know not to be necessary and it continues to be used by those who continue to believe that the death penalty is a deterrent. We have sat in the company of people who have walked within hours and it is horrendous. Words and vision are meaningless. One sentence is meaningless.

The submission contains a letter from a young priest. There is no premeditation in this presentation because death row is without premeditation in the ordinary human sense. However, it is a highly orchestrated machinery in other quarters. The priest describes his revulsion, despite many years of training, of having to administer the last rights to a human being and to watch the flesh come away from the forehead of one who has been incinerated and internally combusted. He must then walk out into a vastness of light and what we call beauty and scenery. It becomes a contradiction in terms.

It has been my experience to sit in a car in the company of a mother who journeys down with the grossest definition of pain on her face, who screams day in day out, and to see silence and perspiration on her face knowing that she has seen her son one more time. If the syringe is to teach me anything, it hangs above the head of those like Roger Collins, whether male or female, throughout the world every day. Such is the constant effect of dehumanising and degenerating the human brain.

To execute somebody is an event, but the process of death row is one without measure. Its harvest is the death of many people and the families involved. We have sat with the three mothers involved, including the victim's mother. The word "generous" falls short to describe a woman who has opened her door in such circumstances. The community is predominantly black, but she has taken the risk despite orchestrated attempts on her estate to prevent her from communicating with three neighbours. The mother of the victim who was horrifically killed was also generous enough to open her door. The mother of the leading aggressive party also opened her door. These were moving experiences for Aiden O'Leary and me.

We have travelled for five years. It sounds like a long time, but it is only a moment when you sit on death row. It is a meaningless definition of time when people walk to the final journey. One can stagger and stumble at levels that one does not believe exist inside a human being. If that is justice, we owe a great debt to this nation, whose foundation was formed by the execution of some great people. It is a recognition, long overdue, that the removal of the death penalty in our country was recognised by a death row inmate and many other such inmates, when he wrote to The Irish Times. Timothy McVeigh and the media circus surrounding him misunderstood that people like that are different.

The Members of the Oireachtas are the guardians of our Constitution and human rights. We sometimes glibly refer to them, but when they are removed savagely they become distant to these people. This is the year of the Special Olympics and because of his disability and mental retardation, Roger Collins would qualify as a Special Olympics athlete. In view of this and the European Year of the Disabled, I call on the members of the committee to consider designating a day of recognition of the Roger Collins's of this world, be they male or female, coloured, white or whatever.

Ireland has had the death penalty. Most of the time it was white on white. The pain and the savagery involved does not lessen on account of skin colour. The committee should ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach, in their forthcoming preparations for Ireland's assumption of the Presidency of the European Union, to ask the EU to designate a day to be dedicated to a consideration of the death penalty as a recognition of our own past. If we cannot look back on our past we have not become self aware. Given that the European Union is an execution free zone, it would be a wonderful opportunity to initiate action to create awareness of the past and to examine it. Covenants and agreements are all very well, but more must be done. We must learn that justice cannot be measured by instruments of death. While some of these people may never return to normal society, there are many varied alternatives to the death penalty, which entail strapping them down and filling them with all kinds of chemicals before their lives expire in the most graphic and destructive manner.

I call on the committee to remove the word "closure" from the vocabulary. It is another of the many words used by the deterrence brigade to fool us that people seek closure. I have yet to meet a human being who wishes to be an executioner and pull the switches. Language needs to be looked at.

I also ask the committee to reconsider the role of the World Congress for the Abolition of the Death Penalty, which was held in 2001 in Strasbourg and which I attended. Many eminent politicians, law makers and fine people from the world of true justice also attended. I ask the committee to invite the congress to meet in this country. It would be a demonstration that we have moved beyond language into the field of action and are sincerely committed to ridding ourselves of the most horrific instrument of justice.

The mental retardation of Roger Collins is an issue that will soon be before the courts. He has been equated as measuring between a 65 and 75 quotient and has achieved a maximum rating of 81. In the currency of time those figures are far more beneficial to him now, although given technological and psychological advances, there are no guarantees. The last 15 cases involving people of his magnitude of retardation have been executed in the State of Georgia. That should spur us to take further action.

I extend my personal thanks to Deputy Fleming, who has been a conduit of support and understanding. He has familiarised himself with this case, as have other members of the committee. We have also been in contact with some notable people involved in human rights. We have visited the French Parliament and have been privileged to meet the Secretary to the Parliament. We have also met a former French Minister for Justice, who is a great academic and one of the most passionate intellectuals one could meet. He took a great political risk in standing with former President Mitterand in seeking the abolition of the death penalty in the 1980s when there was widespread public support for its retention.

We are seeking support from a number of people who we cannot name for legal reasons. We will also seek the support of the committee and the Government to address the question of mental rehabilitation. The mother and family of Roger Collins have visited this country. Without being glib, I can confirm that the hospitality they received is alien to black people in Georgia. The harvest of the family is also dead. They die every day when their son and people like him are on death row. They do not speak as neighbours anymore.

I call for continued action to give information. I recognise the role of the media to state clearly what is the death penalty - an instrument of horror to everybody. The media have a role to give clarity to people who may or may not understand how manipulation and deception takes place in presentations, not in this Chamber but in other circles that continue to advocate it.

Those in the position of Roger Collins need people like the members of this committee, people with authority, who have a very important role to play as guardians of our Constitution and our rights. We demand active attention to establish further liaisons with Roger Collins.

I thank you, Chairman. It is a first to appear before this committee after the passing of the twenty-first amendment to the Constitution. I ask members of the committee to consider the contents of the file presented to them. The first part is a simple presentation by an illiterate human being, Roger Collins. There are many illiterate people and many forms of illiteracy. The second part is a presentation by Marshall W. Krause. He has shown tremendous battling courage and a sense of justice to say what he has against the judicial process of possibly the most powerful nation in the world.

Also included are the indescribable pictures of the residency of a human being in receipt of so-called justice and punishment. We must continue to speak and take action. I thank the Irish media both local and national for all their support over the years. It has been a tremendous support to his family to know they are not as isolated by the iceberg of the system that has shattered their lives.

Neither Mrs. Lester nor Mrs. Durham has sought the euphemism of closure towards Roger Collins. I would not have heard that if I had not been present. They do not seek revenge. As neighbours living within 200 metres of each other, they understand this tragedy happened. The crime of Roger Collins is universally recognised as one of fear and stupidity. No human being has failed to be touched by fear and occasionally to a greater or lesser extent by stupidity. His crime took place when he was aged 17 and a half. He was overwhelmed by his mother's cohabiting partner. He is the only one of the three thus treated. This is a reflection of corruption, manipulation, trickery and deception in the process of the investigation and the prosecution.

I could spend the rest of the year speaking about cases like that of Roger Collins. I hope the eminent members of the committee have heard enough about the death penalty to motivate them to persuade the Taoiseach and other Ministers to invite the World Congress for the Abolition of the Death Penalty to meet here. I thank the members, especially those from the west, for their awareness and participation.

Thank you. That was a very powerful presentation. You have painted a very black picture of the long nightmare that is death row. This morning we should try to concentrate on the Roger Collins case in whatever way we can. I am sure my colleagues will have questions to ask and points to raise.

I read the letter from Mr. Collins, which showed his legal representation at the time of the trial was not as strong as the representation available to the others involved in the trial. What is your thinking on this?

Mr. Colbert

It was wholly ineffective and wholly incompetent, Sir. This was obvious to those more learned than I am who have looked at the transcripts. When one is not so qualified it is sometimes easier to see through the wood. The fact that his jury was made up of 11 white people and one black person indicates something. He was denied the right of expression by his ineffective counsel. He was denied the right to have his mother speak on his behalf. He was denied the right to challenge the medical evidence. He was denied the right to bring forward validated medical evidence. It is not possible to become mentally retarded after an event. His mental retardation is documented in school documents. We have seen some documents but not others. Other lawyers are looking at that.

The jury found him guilty on Thursday and was brought back before the same jury on Friday for sentencing. Given that he said nothing it is possible to imagine the contempt that jury had for him. The members of the jury are human. They had to pronounce. We are aware of certain amendments by the Supreme Court last year where judges now have the sole right. We are aware of the decision in recent weeks that a person with mental retardation will not be executed. The years of debate to follow will not do much good for Roger Collins. The word incompetence is deficient to describe his legal representation. When his counsel was challenged about this based on the transcripts we have he glibly and falsely said he could have done better. Posthumous release is of no benefit. We are here to prevent that.

This is a horrific story. This unfortunate man has been on death row since 1977, the year I was first elected to this House. I think of the time he has spent by comparison to the years I have spent since then. I compliment those who prepared this legal brief which is one of the most horrific I have ever seen. I also compliment Mr. Colbert's presentation of it.

My main reaction to such a powerful presentation is a feeling of helplessness. Mr. Colbert and his colleagues must have suffered this feeling many times over the years. One has to work on the basis that where there is life there is hope. There will be a further legal appeal on the grounds of mental retardation at the time of the murder. It is clear that on the face of it there was a major miscarriage of justice. This committee should support Mr. Colbert and his colleagues in any way in voicing outrage at what has happened here and in voicing our support as strongly as possible for Roger Collins. That can be done by way of a motion from this committee calling on the Government to also voice its outrage at what is happening and ultimately it may be by way of a request to the Governor of the State of Georgia to ensure that under no circumstances should any such death penalty be carried out.

I am sure I am speaking for all members of the committee in saying Mr. Colbert has our strongest support and we will say or do anything we can to try to ensure that Roger Collins is not executed.

I also pay tribute to those who have taken up this case. All these cases have an exemplary function in drawing attention to the retention of capital punishment in different parts of the world. That is important beyond the particular case itself.

I very much agree with what is proposed. The involvement and assistance of Professor William Schabas at the international human rights centre at NUIG, who has written the definitive work on abolition, would be of assistance in organising a day to address the issue of capital punishment, the destruction of life that it involves and its indefensible character. It is true, and one of the attachments to the presentation shows the point, that the move towards abolition is growing, even in the United States. The difficulty is the state of Georgia itself. On an issue like this there is no point seeking a middle ground. Most of the people who make the case for capital punishment do so on the basis of retribution which, frankly, masks revenge. It is a major violation of human rights.

In 1973-74, I taught at Southern Illinois University. The statement of Governor Ryan of Illinois is quoted here. The point is well made in the presentation that when he was moved, at the end of his period of office, to end the death penalty for those who were then on death row he drew our attention to a number of things. For example, 33 of the inmates on death row were represented at their trials by an attorney who had been disbarred or suspended from practising law at some point and of the 160 death row inmates, 35 were Afro-American defendants who had been convicted or condemned to die by all white juries. Two thirds of the inmates were Afro-American and 46 inmates were convicted on the basis of testimony from jail house informants. We have been asked to organise a general recognition of the inhuman nature of the death penalty. I have suggested that Professor Schabas might be of assistance in that regard.

In relation to the particular case, I support those who intend to write to the Governor of Georgia. I will not waste time on what I think of the United States Supreme Court making a resolution and the state of Georgia insisting on retaining someone on death row. However, we should write to those authorities.

It strikes me as extraordinary that different Irish governments have found themselves so reluctant to state a case at the United Nations Commission on Human Rights in Geneva on the many Roger Collins type cases in the United States and draw attention to the socio-economic facts to which I have just made reference and also to the very serious flaws in the process. The case has been well made that every principle of international law is breached by putting those without mental capacity at the time of the alleged commission of a crime through a process in which they are not given fairness and are then subjected to a cruel and inhuman punishment, which is the death penalty. That is my response and I suggest we react positively to what the delegation mentioned.

Mr. Colbert

It is worthy of note that Deputy Higgins has been to Southern Illinois University. Anthony Porter told a journalist who is attached to Professor Protess and who happens to come from the west of Ireland that they are staggered to hear that we are on board and are meeting on this issue. Anthony Porter is just another name and another horrific example of the gross wrongness of the death penalty.

I asked Deputy Fleming how it was that the European Union, which has a vast population and extends rights to its visitors and does not present them with the possibility of the death penalty, cannot ask other governments to extend that right to us. This is not a black or an Irish question. Millions of Irish and European citizens live in various regions of the world. If we extend the exemption from execution to visitors to Ireland and Europe, why can we not ask for the same? Whatever legal or political instrument it takes, we should weight the case against those countries. Ambassadors of countries which continue to practise the death penalty and diplomats from countries who have ceased to use it should be called in so that we are not seen to be waving the flag on one side or another.

I compliment Billy Colbert, Aidan O'Leary and Alan Smith on taking up this case and on their opposition to the death penalty in the United States of America and throughout the world. I share their view that the death penalty is state murder. Let us not call it anything else. Irrespective of the crime, to be in prison for that period alone is a punishment. Having visited prisons here and in Northern Ireland, I know that prison life is sometimes unpleasant. Deprivation of freedom is a key point.

I would like more emphasis placed on the case of Delores Lester, who was raped by William Durham, Roger Collins and J.C. Styles. That is not disputed. She was the girlfriend of Roger Collins prior to this assault and he participated in the murder. Let us not gloss over the facts of the situation. There is very little concern for the victim in most cases. In fact, there is no reference in the presentation to Delores Lester's life before this horrible rape and murder. She was deprived of her life by William Durham, assisted by Roger Collins. J.C. Styles was present in the car and did nothing to prevent her being hit four times and murdered. I would like to know more about Delores Lester's family and their views on this matter. I do not see any testament from them to try to reduce the death sentence to one of life imprisonment, with possible parole at this point.

It is obvious that Roger Collins has apologised and regrets what occurred. Nevertheless, he knew the young lady involved. He was the person who identified her and she probably went into the car because of his presence. Let us not gloss over the reality of the situation. We tend to forget the victims of crime. Delores Lester's name should be mentioned at today's hearing and her family situation explained as well as the effect her murder had on them. Her family have had a life sentence since her murder in 1977.

I concur with any proposal that would remove the death penalty throughout the world and particularly in the United States of America. In County Roscommon we have links with Georgia through the Elan corporation so we have influence. A previous governor of Georgia has been in the county and I have visited Georgia. We should use those influences to ask the governor to remove the death sentence in this case. To remove the death penalty in general will be another day's work. We should use the influence of this committee to ensure this sentence is removed.

Mr. Colbert, would you liketo address the issue from the victim's perspective?

Mr. Colbert

When I say the harvest of justice is death, I include the families. Walking into Mrs. Lester's home is a moment one never forgets. I said earlier that the word "generosity" falls short by several definitions of generosity in terms of her opening her home. That is critically important for her. These three mothers live in the same estate and had not, because of the orchestration of their penalty, spoken for 22 years. We brought together two mothers whose lives have been shattered and continue to be fragmented without definition by a moment none of them has forgotten. They now wave to each other on thestreet.

We also have Diane Styles on digifilm. She became the wife of J.C. Styles who received the immunity package or, as we refer to it, became a supergrass. He threatened to harm her if she signed her unsworn statement. This is the culture with which we deal, if the term "culture" can be applied to it. When we met Mrs. Lester for the second time we also met her sons. We were aware they had done something against the state and against her nature which caused her enormous pain. What I saw was a mother disfigured by several medical strokes. She offered me a seat in her home. The film was recorded from a distance to preserve her safety. That moment has been unequalled in my life.

I agree it was a horrendous and gruesome murder. One can also read from the transcripts Mr. Durham's claim that he put the four imprints in the ground, yet that has never been forensically examined. There is much wrong with that investigation. When one offers someone a package deal to go state's witness, one risks further corruption of the system.

I thank Mr. Colbert, Mr. Aidan O'Leary and Mr. Alan Smith for coming here today and giving us an outstanding presentation. I am impressed with the attention given to this presentation by committee members. There is no argument on this issue. I hope the committee will take whatever action it can to support the case and the wider issue of the death penalty. We should call on the Government to raise the issue directly.

The issue of Roger Collins's mental retardation was mentioned. He should not be on death row. Perhaps the committee could examine the death penalty issue further. A world congress on the abolition of the death penalty was held a number of years ago and perhaps we could stage a similar congress in Ireland. We recently made an amendment to our Constitution ensuring the death penalty would no longer be used here. I understand applicants to the EU must abolish the death penalty from their Statute Books before entry. We should expect the same from every other continent. I would like to see the same pattern we have established - we could hold a world congress day on the abolition of the death penalty - being established across the world. We could bring pressure to bear on other continents to follow the EU example. I am not a member of this committee but I support the delegation.

I thank the group for attending. One of our colleagues, Senator Paschal Mooney, who is unavoidably absent, is a member of the Council of Europe Sub-Committee on Human Rights. That sub-committee recently returned from a visit to Springfield in the United States where he attended discussions on the death penalty issue. Senator Mooney has asked us to note a shift in public opinion. In 1995, according to various surveys, approximately 80% of US citizens favoured the death penalty, but that figure is now reportedly down to 60%. That is a move in the right direction. What is also notable is that US politicians who previously had a strong fear of being seen to oppose the death penalty due to electoral ramifications are now achieving greater electoral success as a result of speaking out against it. It is a pity such matters are judged on electoral success or otherwise. Hopefully there is a political move away from the use of the death penalty and that will free up people to take a more courageous stance on it.

I thank the delegation for their presentation. We will move into private session at the conclusion of our second item. There are a number of proposals before us from Deputy O'Keeffe and Deputy Higgins. We will try to ensure we obtain an appropriate response to the presentation regarding Roger Collins's position and the wider issue of the death penalty. We know we have a mountain to climb but we will take whatever small steps we can to assist Mr. Collins.

Mr. Colbert

May I extend the privilege, which is the right of any citizen, to the power your office carries. We have achieved great things as a nation; we are small but that does not mean the mountain is bigger. We have been faced with mountains and have climbed them successfully as have many nations.

Major organisations, such as the National Union of Journalists and the World Health Organisation, whose people are employed in medically administering these instruments, contribute to this also. This is a day of relief for the Lester and Durham families and above all, for Roger Collins. It may be a further glimmer on a very dark road in death row.

The sub-committee went into private session at 10.58 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11 a.m.

I wish to clarify a point before we begin. Will the Chairman confirm that a background briefing note we have received is from the Department of Foreign Affairs and that we have not received a background note from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Department of Finance?

That is correct.

I would like that point noted because it will be germane to our discussion later.

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