JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 23 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 30

Visit by Ugandan Parliamentary Delegation.

Acting Chairman (Deputy P. Carey)

Colleagues are very welcome. I welcome in particular the delegation from the Parliament of Uganda. The delegation is led by the Speaker of the Parliament - they will forgive me if some of the pronunciations are not completely accurate - the Right Honourable Edward KiwanukaSsekandi MP. He is accompanied by the Honourable Ben Wacha MP, the Honourable Sulaiman Madada MP, the Honourable BeatriceRwakimari MP, the Honourable Martin Wandera MP, the Honourable Sammy Ogwel Loote MP, the Honourable Sarah Nyombi MP and Manuel Pinto, secretary to the delegation.

To meet them we have, from the two Houses of the Irish Parliament, Deputy Gay Mitchell - whom I think the delegation has met already - Senator Frank Feighan, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, whom the delegation has also met, Deputy Tony Dempsey, Senator Kieran Phelan and Senator Mary O'Rourke, Leader of the Seanad. I am Deputy Pat Carey, Vice-Chairman of the committee. I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, Deputy Michael Woods, who is abroad on business.

It is my very great pleasure to welcome fellow parliamentarians from Uganda. It is a country with which Ireland has close and enduring contacts. The first links between our two countries derive from Irish teaching orders, which have been active in Uganda since the early 20th century and have contributed to the development of education in Uganda. Those links were formalised in recent years by Uganda's designation as a programme country for Ireland's official aid programme, Development Co-operation Ireland, and the establishment of an Irish Embassy in Kampala in 1994.

Our two countries have much in common in historical terms, as two relatively young nations with a history of colonisation. Similarities are to be found between our two Parliaments, deriving from the common influence of the Westminster model. The delegates will also find that they are among friends, some of whom have visited Uganda and taken a keen interest in its affairs. We have all been greatly impressed by Uganda's success in recovering from the devastation of the Amin years and the impressive progress its government has achieved in recent years across a range of social and economic sectors. The progress you have made in terms of economic growth and stability, reducing poverty, combating HIV and AIDS and introducing universal primary education has served to make Uganda an ideal development partner and a model for other developing countries in Africa. President Museveni visited the Oireachtas during the course of his official visit in Ireland in 2000. We had the pleasure last month of welcoming the Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister of Uganda, the Honourable James Wapakhabulo to this House and hearing his robust rebuttal of criticisms which have recently been directed against your Government in the Irish media arising from Uganda's involvement in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. This topic is of keen interest to many of our members and we look forward to hearing your views on it.

We are pleased to learn that Ireland's development programme in Uganda is supporting the plan for the modernisation of your Parliament. We would be interested in hearing more of your intentions in this regard and your views on the Irish support which is delivered through AWEPA. Ireland has experienced unprecedented economic growth and progress over the last decade and I know you are all interested in learning how that was achieved and the role our Parliament played in contributing to it. Central to the achievement was a Parliament with a vigorous committee system which is able to carry out its oversight role in a robust and constructive manner. A further critical element of that achievement was consensus among the social partners and among the parties represented in Dáil Éireann on the economic strategy to be pursued.

Parliament, through the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and its Sub-Committee on Development Co-operation plays a significant role in monitoring and overseeing the Government's official development aid programme, Development Co-operation Ireland. This programme has experienced a dramatic increase in funding over recent years as reflected in the growth of our programme in Uganda which went from £900,000 in 1994 to €30 million in 2003. That impressive rate of growth can be expected to continue as the Government has committed itself to reaching the UN target of 0.7% of GNP by 2007.

We would be very interested in hearing your views on development co-operation in general, and in particular on our partnership in this area and how it can best contribute to the further development of Uganda which has also made significant progress in democratisation over the last 16 years. Development Co-operation Ireland has sought to support that process through its activities in the area of good governance, democracy and human rights, decentralisation and civil society. We note the emerging consensus with regard to moving to a multi-party democratic system by the 2006 elections. I am aware that the Constitutional Review Commission is looking at that and other matters and the chairman of that commission visited Ireland as part of his research. We will be glad to learn more of this process and your views on the way forward.

As you are no doubt aware, allegations of corruption featured prominently in the recent media criticisms directed at Development Co-operation Ireland's involvement in Uganda. Corruption is a universal problem which occurs in developed and developing countries alike. It can, however, have a particularly detrimental and lasting impact in developing countries through the diversion and loss of scarce development resources which are needed to address the basic needs of the poorest members of society. Perceptions of corruption can also impact negatively on public opinion in partner countries and can reduce popular support for further development funding. This is an area in which Parliament with its oversight role and responsibility for sanctioning and monitoring public expenditure has a particular part to play. We look forward to hearing your views on this issue and how Parliament can best help to combat this problem.

There are several other issues such as conflict resolution, the humanitarian situation in northern Uganda and perhaps others about which you may like to speak to us. However, time may not permit as you have an appointment which requires that you leave here at about 1.15 p.m. While I do not want to limit the discussion we must be aware of that constraint. We look forward to having a fruitful and mutually beneficial exchange of views and experiences with your delegation.

Mr. Edward Kiwanuka Ssekandi

Honourable Chairman and members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, I bring warm salutations from the Honourable Members of the Parliament of Uganda who express profound gratitude for the development partnership Uganda enjoys with the assistance of the Government and people of Ireland. Personal relations between Ireland and Uganda go back a long time since they were created by Irish missionaries who have played a major role in developing Africans, Ugandans in particular. Many of us have been moulded through missionary schools built and supported by Irish people. Many citizens of Uganda, especially the underprivileged, have benefited from health services rendered so selflessly by Irish missionaries. Educational capacity created within Uganda has helped us to sustain our socio-economic development. Uganda has endured prolonged political instability since independence in 1962 under non-democratic leadership culminating in Idi Amin's horrendous regime. Parliament functioned for a few years since 1962 but soon fell prey to dictatorship until the war of liberation in 1986 in which the movement under President Museveni's leadership took charge of Government.

Since 1986 Ugandans have generally experienced sustained political stability and the country has registered positive economic growth in spite of insurgency in the south-west, which was overcome, and northern Uganda, which we are striving to eliminate. Since 1995 when we promulgated the new constitution, the Parliament of Uganda has been effectively exercising its constitutional mandate in overseeing the executive and we continue to register success with a system of checks and balances.

The Administration of Parliament Act 1997 provided the autonomy necessary for the legislature to function independently. The Budget Act 2001 has provided for proactive engagement with the executive to negotiate development priorities to which scarce resources, including Irish aid, are allocated. Legislation such as the Public Finance and Accountability Act 2003, the Public Procurement and Disposal of Public Assets Act 2003 and the Trial on Indictments (Amendment) Act 1998 together with the leadership code of conduct have been implemented, aiming to reduce corruption, abuse of office and misappropriation of public funds. Public officers have been prosecuted as a result of parliamentary committee probes and some ministers have been censured for abuse of office.

The Uganda Human Rights Commission is active and regularly presents its performance reports to Parliament. It has been able to award damages to individuals whose cases have succeeded against the Government's excesses and abuse. The Government returned UPDF troops from the Democratic Republic of Congo after Uganda's security concerns were addressed and now UN peacekeepers use facilities offered by the Ugandan Government to enable them to carry out their mandated missions in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Ireland is one of our leading development partners which provide direct budget support to Uganda. I take this opportunity to thank the Government and people of Ireland for this most valued support and to appeal to them to continue in the knowledge that the Ugandan Parliament will effectively ensure, through monitoring, that the resources are put to proper use. Ireland's intervention in areas such as Karamoja is set to transform the living conditions of our most needy communities. Irish development aid is applied to poverty reduction under the Ugandan Government plan to eradicate poverty. Uganda has been grappling with HIV-AIDS, which has caused a serious impact on our social and economic development. Through collaborative engagement with our development partners, we have scaled down its incidence but the negative consequences have left many orphaned children, aged dependants and sickly patients to care for. Ireland has been effective in assisting us to sustain prevention and care programmes.

Last but not least, I wish to solicit your help in negotiating for access of our agricultural products into the European market now constrained by subsidies offered by developed countries. We need to access markets in order to earn sufficiently so as to sustain development programmes and not simply depend on aid.

Africa is focusing on continental unity under the African Union. We hope to advance in a co-ordinated system to develop democratic governance, enhance political stability across the continent and promote social economic advancement through NEPAD. We shall need your continued co-operation and assistance to achieve our cherished objective of peaceful existence and economic development in Africa. I wish also to thank you particularly through the support of AWEPA that the Parliament of Uganda has received in order to carry out its parliamentary strategy investment and development plan, a copy of which I present to you, Chairman.

Let me close by conveying felicitations on behalf of my fellow Africans to our development partners in Ireland for your co-operation. I thank the Chairman and members for their kind attention.

Acting Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for a most interesting address. A number of my colleagues want to make a contribution. I will ask Deputy Gay Mitchell to begin.

Deputy G. Mitchell

I join the Acting Chairman in welcoming Mr. Ssekandi and his colleagues to the committee. I already had an opportunity to meet the deputation this morning when we went through some issues of concern with them. I also raised some of the developments taking place in Europe.

There are some issues that I indicated I would raise on the record. I also wish to indicate that progress has been made, particularly with HIV-AIDS. We are advised that under President Museveni much progress has been made in human rights and there is a free press in Uganda. These are some of the positive developments. I do not want all our emphasis on the negative as there have been positive developments.

There are issues, however, I wish to raise with the delegation. While there has been progress towards the ratification of six major international human rights instruments, there remains concern that in northern Uganda the security forces have been, reportedly, responsible for numerous human rights abuses, including extrajudicial killings and torture.

I also want to raise the death of Fr. Declan O'Toole in April 2002, for which two members of the Ugandan Defence Forces were, it appears, hurriedly tried and executed. Fr. O'Toole was an Irish citizen in Uganda doing the work that Irish missionaries and NGOs do with the support of the Irish public. I hope that the murder of Fr. O'Toole is taken seriously by the Ugandan Government and Parliament in order that there will be no repeat of such an incident. I also hope there will be protection for missionaries and NGOs working there.

I also wish to raise the exploitation of the natural resources of neighbouring states and the funding of both sides in conflicts there. One NGO has suggested to this committee that the Irish Government cease all aid to Uganda to deal with this matter. Other NGOs would not agree with ending bilateral aid but, nonetheless, they say there are issues that need to addressed, including corruption. The Porter commission report dealt with some of these issues. There is a suggestion that proper oversights may not be in place to prevent corruption within the army or government.

I do not want to be raising all the negative aspects, as there are positives. However, these are issues that are raised at this committee. Ireland is striving to achieve its 0.7% of GNP in aid which is a considerable amount of money. During the Irish term of the EU Presidency, we have asked the Government to make development, trade with the developing world and HIV-AIDs a priority issue. Taking all this into account, it is important that when we try to push this with the public, we are not getting negative reports from NGOs about good governance and practice in Uganda and the region. I raise these concerns with the delegation as colleagues to colleagues. We did raise these recently with the Ugandan Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister of State for Investment.

Deputy M. Higgins

I join with others in welcoming the delegation to the committee. I wish the Ugandan parliamentarians a very successful visit. I hope it will be the beginning of many involving fruitful exchange and dialogue with Irish parliamentarians.

I had the benefit of meeting them earlier when I mentioned that our parliamentary process is an unfinished project. Our committee system is relatively new, under-resourced, under-staffed, but valuable. However, it is not a case of visiting a finished project of Western democracy within the Westminster model. That model may be under some threat in terms of popular support and in reconciling popular democracy with institutional efficacy and representation. There are many issues at the heart of the West with this declining support for parliament here and right across Europe. Then there is the US where, perhaps, less than 35% of the people bother to vote. While we are useful as a source of example in many things, we are not a perfect one. It is an unfinished democratic project. Furthermore, when new structures emerge in Africa, they will have to take account of an older and rich set of African traditions.

Deputy Gay Mitchell was right to have raised those particular issues of concern. This is the appropriate way to deal with them. There is no need for me to repeat them. These issues are ones that have been raised with the Irish public and media too.

Let me emphasise the issue of the DRC. On the occasion of the visit of the Ugandan Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. James Wapakhabulo, between 25 and 28 August, both he and the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, issued a joint statement. It stated that any members of the Congolese population responsible for human rights abuses or illegal exploitation of resources in the DRC would be brought to trial and made to account. It is important that this commitment be seen to happen.

As we know from our own journey to peace in Northern Ireland, it is frequently suggested that when one puts too many conditions, progress begins to evaporate. For example, regarding the tragic continuing conflict in northern Uganda and particularly the atrocities of the LRA, the issue is that if one suggests a condition of permanent peace and secure borders as a necessary precondition for full and total disengagement from the DRC, that would amount to inserting an impossible condition. Regarding the totally unhelpful position of Israel in relation to the Middle East, Israel calls for a complete and total cessation of what it suggests is terrorism. It then suggests its borders must be secure. An Israeli model draft would be inappropriate for Uganda. At some stage one must deal with the issue of addressing appropriately and transparently any business taking place, including that of illegal resources. One must also respond to the suggestion that one is disengaging only at a point at which one has left surrogates in place to resume a conflict. That is a frequent suggestion.

In relation to the conflict we discussed in the northern part of Uganda, the fact that there has been regional co-operation between Sudan and Uganda will continue to be very helpful. Equally on the other side, the relation between Rwanda and Uganda is one that could rupture at any stage, and that raises the question whether an insurance policy for that particular relationship is not being carried out at the cost of the DRC. My wish is that the much more difficult journey which perhaps is only now beginning in relation to the DRC is in fact one which should be assisted by all of the neighbours. This is very important.

We have recently had circulated to us from the South African Embassy a summary of NIPAD. We had a discussion before this committee with Dr. Kader Asmal. I would like to circulate in the next few weeks a study of NIPAD carried out by the young African scholars in this area. I am in favour of a new initiative such as NIPAD but there is much more evidence in the design of the programme for a consultation having taken place with the multinational corporations than with Africans. I put it rather politely by saying the programme emerged from four sources which I deeply respect. I wish it well, but I would wonder about its connections with the people's project in the different countries and whether it has not sought to be too compliant to those who might be potential sources of foreign direct investment rather than to those who have represented the most exciting kind of scholarship in Africa - those moving from needs based approaches through village development, micro credit, participation by women and new forms of African development that would, for example, put a limit on the amount of access to a country's GDP that would be required for debt. That proviso is not in NIPAD.

The suggestion is that one could make conditions favourable and that a continent from which foreign direct investment has in effect flowed away will see it automatically flow back. As someone who has been studying these issues for many years I have to say there is not a jot of evidence that that will happen. I wish NIPAD well but it needs to be reformed and critiqued and made transparent, and not be seen as a project of what it was - a document initiated from four countries. It would be helpful if we saw its relationship to previous initiatives. That being said, it is very important that we sustain the Irish-Ugandan partnership and do so with frankness and openness, such as we have had in the questions. Thank you.

Acting Chairman

Thank you. We have a number of other speakers offering, but I will give the opportunity to the Speaker and his colleagues to respond, because a variety of issues has been raised.

Mr. Sulaiman Madada

I would like to respond to issues raised on the anti-corruption crusade in Uganda. I want to introduce myself as chairperson of the Young Parliamentarians Association, the biggest association in the Parliament of Uganda, whose major mission statement is to have an independent parliament capable of responding to national and international concerns, that is, building the capacities of members of parliament to be able to carry out their legislative, oversight and representative roles. I have been dealing both with these matters and with corruption. Before becoming a Member of Parliament I was involved in the anti-corruption crusade for over ten years. First, I was vice-chairperson of Transparence International, an international NGO. I was the first chairperson of the Anti-corruption Coalition of Uganda, the coalition that brings together all the civil society organisations to fight corruption in the country.

How does one gauge the corruption levels of a country? The biggest gauge comes from Transparence CPI figures, CPI meaning corruption perception indices. Transparence annually carries out what we call corruption perception indices. It does a survey on how people perceive corruption. It does so in Uganda using the democratic principles of freedom of the press, and it thus allows civil society to operate freely. Following on the 1995 Constitution, civil society organisations are independent in carrying out the objectives once they are properly declared, and there is a freedom to express oneself. That raises awareness in the country.

In terms of perception, when you come to Uganda and interview the people about corruption perception, then the rate of perception will be high. I shared a similar paper to the first anti-corruption conference related to Africa, held in Dublin in 1999, which focused on raising awareness of corruption in Uganda. There is much raising of awareness. Once one comes to Uganda and asks anyone there about corruption, there is likely to be a positive answer that there is a lot of corruption in the country. When one looks at the 1995 Ugandan Constitution, it can be seen that government has made a lot of efforts to reduce corruption, first, by decentralisation. The principle behind decentralisation is the transfer of power from the centre to where it can possibly be managed, thereby giving people power to plan at the lower level. Corruption is related to levels of transparency and accountability. People must have the management of their own affairs. When one allows certain organisations to question the government, then one is giving power to people so that they can know what goes on.

When Uganda was being ruled before this time, it was traditionally the best country where the traditional leaders had a lot of unquestionable powers. It is an issue of changing the former notion of unquestionable powers to the situation today, where a person can question a leader on how he is using office. When one looks at the definition of corruption, in the Ugandan concept of misuse of public office for self-gain, then one knows that traditionally one did not question a leader. It was part of the national character. Today we are saying that people should have the power to question their leaders. That is something new. When one looks at the Ugandan leadership code 2003, it goes in that direction, allowing people to question their leaders on this anti-corruption crusade. We currently have anti-corruption week in Uganda. That is a phenomenon which has now occurred annually for five years. Civil society organisations organise an anti-corruption week and government has come out to support these efforts. Every October, the final week of the month is anti-corruption week across the country. We have shared this with Zimbabwe. It is taking on a similar culture through the African anti-corruption week, which originated in Uganda. It is a week designed for anti-corruption activities. I have just been discussing with the Speaker, Mr. Ssekandi, how this year people are examining access to public information as a key to the fight against corruption. The Young Parliamentarians Association and the African Parliamentarians' Network Against Corruption are working out with civil society organisations how to lobby for a policy of giving information to the people freely. That is the line we are taking. The YPA and informal organisations in parliament are able to deal with civil society organisations regarding their concerns. It was not easy before this Government for civil society organisations to question any leader of the country. However, now they come to Parliament and we discuss matters and take lines on how we can really handle issues concerning corruption.

Acting Chairman

Other issues were raised by those two speakers. Perhaps someone else might wish to address them.

Mr. Ben Wacha

The Deputy dealt at length with Uganda's intervention in the Congo. He rightly argued that it was not right for one to protect one's borders by crossing those of another. That is fundamentally and internationally correct. However, we had to deal with a situation at that time where the Government had all but collapsed in the eastern part of the Congo. The Government tried to have dealings with the late Mobutu Sese Seko to establish governance in that part of the country, but that failed. Unfortunately, the process continued during the time of the late Laurent Kabila. We had a situation whereby a rebel group called the ADF was openly operating in that part of the Congo. It was making interventions into western Uganda to commit atrocities, and our appeals to the Government of the Congo to do something about it failed. There were incidents where schoolchildren were abducted and 100 pupils were burnt alive in a dormitory by the ADF. It was certainly a situation where no Government would stand aside and look on.

It was under those unfortunate conditions that the Government decided to do something about removing the ADF from eastern Zaire-Congo. Perhaps the method chosen to deal with it was wrong, but even under international law there is a principle of hot pursuit. Whether that was done correctly or not I do not know, but immediately we had safeguarded our borders, we found it correct for our forces to return from the Congo. As we speak now, the situation is as the Speaker, Mr. Ssekandi, rightly stated. We have not a single member of the forces in the DRC.

There have been allegations that some of our security personnel have been arming different groups in the DRC. We heard about them and asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs to inform Parliament of what is happening. He said that nothing of the sort is happening and that, if there are individual soldiers doing it, they will be found out. We in Parliament are still awaiting a report to that effect. However, the current situation is that we have not a single soldier in the DRC. We are abiding by the Lusaka code on what should happen there.

There is an issue in the north with the LRA and the Sudan. I represent a northern constituency which is very close to where the leader of the LRA was born - just six miles away. The atrocities committed by the LRA as reported in the press are not exaggerated. Children have been abducted, people's limbs have been cut off and their houses and homes burnt. Close to one million people are now living in camps because of the LRA's operations in those districts, and unfortunately they are spreading, and not only to the north, for they have now captured some districts in the east. Why does the LRA continue to commit such atrocities? There have been times when the operations of the LRA have tapered off almost to the stage where they were non-existent. Then all of a sudden they erupt again. They come back with new arms and uniforms and with trained child soldiers. They operate from across the border in Sudan.

The Government has held talks with the Sudan. At times when Sudanese soldiers take action, the activities of the LRA go down. However, it is only when the Sudanese Government arms the LRA that its atrocities reach new heights. Some of us northern Members of Parliament have asked the Government to hold talks with the LRA. The Government has attempted to hold talks with Joseph Kony, the LRA leader. Members of Parliament and Ministers were appointed to presidential peace teams, but the LRA has refused to hold talks with the Government. Our suggestion is that our donor friends should assist us in Uganda in putting pressure on the Sudan so that LRA activities are removed from the south of the country. Without that happening, there is very little that can be done.

Mr. Ssekandi

I think it was the Honourable Mr. Ben Wacha who raised the issue of Father O'Toole who was killed in Kotido. That tragic incident was totally condemned by the entire country. Because it was shocking, the response was to use the system for soldiers courts martial so that it might serve as an example that life should not be played with. I want to take the opportunity to state that we are committed to protecting not only foreigners but the entire population. Where extrajudicial killings take place, they must be followed up. Many reports of abuse have been made by the Human Rights Commission and the Government acts promptly on such recommendations. I wish to assure you that foreigners, be they Irish or of any other nationality, will be protected in Uganda. Playing with the life of any person must be dealt with assiduously.

Acting Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Several members are offering questions, but Deputy Gay Mitchell raised the concern expressed in the media here and by the Irish public about the desirability or otherwise of continuing with bilateral development aid to Uganda. Perhaps the Speaker or one of his colleagues might avail of the opportunity to reassure the Irish public that money is being properly and wisely spent. Perhaps you might deal with that issue at the conclusion. Deputy Tony Dempsey, Senator Frank Feighan and Senator Mary O'Rourke are offering questions. Perhaps we might take those three together.

Deputy T. Dempsey

I had intended asking the deputation to outline the situation in the north. The Honourable Mr. Ben Wacha has just done that, so I need not ask that question.

Senator Feighan

I welcome Speaker Ssekandi to Ireland and thank him for the informative address. I hope the delegation has a pleasant stay in Ireland.

I want to make a comment and ask two questions. I make this comment in conjunction with Deputy Gay Mitchell. We were very concerned at the shooting dead of Fr. Declan O'Toole and we would hope that we would not see an occurrence of this nature again.

On my questions, I am delighted Uganda has significantly lowered the HIV factor to one in ten in the population. Will the delegation outline the measures Uganda took to ensure this result? Second, are there members elected to the Ugandan Parliament supportive of the LRA in their areas?

Senator O’Rourke

I welcome the delegation, the Speaker and all his colleagues. My questions are practical and I know I will get practical answers. Mr. Madada spoke of an anti-corruption week currently in progress. Perhaps he could tell us what goes on during anti-corruption week and the measures they take. It would be interesting to hear about them.

The murder of Fr. O'Toole was shocking but I found equally shocking what happened afterwards. On the public execution of the soldiers, if I may say so, we are all for justice but I do not know. I would like to hear more about how that decision was reached, how the soldiers were murdered, in turn, and why they carried out such public executions. It seems to me that it was a leg for a leg, so to speak, but I would not approve of that kind of treatment or carry on.

I know they are hoping to bring primary education, both for girls and boys, to all parts of Uganda by 2015. I would encourage all the delegations in that regard because education will be the key to the development of the country. There is no doubt about it. For many years I was Minister for Education. In any country, young people are the future; therefore education will be extremely important. I know they know that because they have set themselves some aims to so do.

I would like to hear one of the women delegates talking about Uganda's aims on improving the mortality rate for women giving birth. Uganda is aiming to cut that mortality rate back, as Uganda has very satisfactorily done with AIDS. The programme against AIDS calls for huge resources and they, as a government, seem prepared to put money, along with help from other countries, into it. Of course we all are glad to hear that.

Our briefing note tells us there are no political parties in Uganda. Is that correct? If so, is there an Opposition? What happens? I would like to know how they manage. I do not know why what I say is met with such amusement. We all would like to live in democracies with no Opposition, but I just wonder how they manage for fruitful, good, democratic opposition in debates and how such debates are conducted if there is no Opposition.

Those are just practical questions but I would be keen to hear the answers from the delegation. I am particularly keen to know what happens during anti-corruption week/month. What is done? Are they hanged or what?

Senator Kitt

I want to welcome the delegation and to say that I very much support the Irish-Ugandan partnership. I welcome what the delegation said about tackling HIV-AIDS and the priority being given to education.

Returning to the killing of Fr. O'Toole, I know his family. One aspect which disturbed me was the fact that Fr. O'Toole spoke very strongly against corruption and the idea that he was murdered because he spoke and stood against corruption is very worrying. Another was the judicial process that followed his murder.

Deputy Gay Mitchell also raised the question of the debate about funding for NGOs as against government. That has been put strongly, particularly by John O'Shea. I am not aware that this has been answered, that is, the question of the work NGOs do vis-à-vis what governments do.

Deputy G. Mitchell

On a point of clarification on the essence of the question on which the delegation elaborated, is the bilateral aid which Ireland gives to Uganda displacing money which they themselves would spend on aid and which they are then using for defence purposes?

ActingChairman

Mr. Speaker, I will give you and the delegation the floor to respond.

Mr. Ssekandi

Thank you, Chairman. The answer to the question whether bilateral aid should continue is yes, it should continue. What has been given to us in the past has produced positive results in reducing poverty by way of enhancing education and health, and providing water to the poor. This should continue because we have the mechanism of monitoring its use. The question of using it for corrupt activities does not arise because the Parliament has got a mechanism for following it up and the other institutions of government that can monitor it. It should, therefore, continue. If it does not continue, many poor people will suffer. I want again to use this opportunity to thank you for the support you have given in that line.

It is not true that the aid you give is used for the military because the last time we had a very serious problem caused by LRA where some reallocation was done, Parliament had to approve the expenditure, even for the military. Members, therefore, should not be worried that we use it for defence purposes.

As to the question of how we have been able to achieve the reduction in HIV, before it was detected in 1982 people thought it was a result of witchcraft, but we became open the moment we realised that it was not witchcraft and there was a scientific explanation for this problem. We became open without fearing that tourism would be affected.

There are many countries where this has spread simply because they could not talk about it. They protected it by not talking about these dangers, but we did talk about it. When we did, even the local leaders - up to the top - were involved in this particular fight.

Also the people were sensitive about the way HIV-AIDS affects somebody and they took measures, and this was the result. We have had success in that we have reduced it. As to whether there are some Members of Parliament who support it, I do not know. We talk about this problem every day and appeal to the masses to support the Government in fighting the LRA, but whether there are individuals who support the LRA, I cannot tell. As the Speaker, I do not know of any Member of Parliament who supports the LRA

Regarding the non-existence of political parties——

Senator O’Rourke

I was referring to the opposition.

Mr. Ssekandi

Uganda began with a multi-party system in 1962. We had a government and an opposition, but despite this and without any other influence, the system collapsed until Idi Amin took over and we had a military regime for eight years. Then the liberation took place, which began in Tanzania, and continued until 1986 when President Museveni took over the powers of government.

The concern was how to unite people in Uganda so that there could be development. It was thought that we should move together, irrespective of political thinking. Members of Parliament are from different parties but agree to work together for the purposes of development. We decide the issues in Parliament on merit, and there are times when the Government brings in proposals that are rejected. We do not have a whip in our Parliament that makes a person vote a certain way. One votes according to one's conviction.

Uganda has freedom of the press. There are 40 privately owned FM radio stations on which people debate all types of issues, even up to abusing the Head of State. No one will harass a person for doing that. There are newspapers and different societies that write about and discuss issues. However, as the Chairman said, we are undergoing a constitutional review to see whether to continue with the system of a Government of national unity or change to a multi-party system. This will happen soon and I know that the elections 2006 will take place under a multi-party system.

Senator O’Rourke

What is being done during anti-corruption month?

Acting Chairman

Other members of the delegation wish to speak and Senator Mooney wants to ask a brief question.

Mr. Wacha

I thought I would add a small supplementary to the issue raised by——

Acting Chairman

I wish to advise the witnesses that time is running out and, while I do not wish to limit the discussion, they should be aware that their next appointment is approaching quickly.

Mr. Wacha

On the issue of Members of Parliament supporting the LRA, I come from a neighbouring district to the one where the leader of the LRA was born and am very close to the Members of Parliament from that district. As a matter of fact, we have formed a joint parliamentary group to try to fight the LRA problem. I do not know of any Member of Parliament from that area who supports the LRA. It would be tragic for any political leader to support the activities of the LRA. It is difficult to describe to committee members and for them to perceive what actually happens. Words cannot describe it. This is a group of people without any political platform. It would be very difficult for a political leader to support a group of people without a political platform whose only activities are geared towards destruction and making people suffer. I do not think any political leader would do that.

Acting Chairman

Both women members wish to contribute.

Ms Sarah Nyombi

I am Sarah Nyombi, Member of Parliament for the constituency of Ntenjeru North. I wish to contribute on the issue of the maternal mortality rate. We as the Government of Uganda have built health centres at parish level because the distances to medical facilities are just too great for mothers and have caused many deaths. We now we have a policy of building health centres at the parish and sub-county level with hospitals for the districts.

To reduce the infant mortality rate, we have a mass immunisation campaign - for measles this time - which will take place between 15 and 19 October and is chaired by the Minister for Health. Most of our children die due to six curable diseases, the main one being measles. Along with that campaign, at lower local government levels we have social workers who preach about family planning. Most mothers die if they have more than 12 children. We offer free condoms to help with family planning.

Ms Beatrice Rwakimari

To supplement what my colleague said, I want to highlight the major causes of persistent maternal mortality rates. The first major factor is illiteracy. About 60% of women do not know how to read and writeand this has been a major contributor to theincreased death of mothers and children in our country.

We have a shortage of health workers, especially midwives. The ratio of patients to midwives is 18,000:1. One midwife attends to about 18,000 mothers. This is such a serious issue that most mothers deliver at home assisted by elderly women who have never been to school. Another reason mothers prefer to deliver at home is that, due to illiteracy, they are not aware of the practice of delivering at health centres.

The major factor in maternal mortality is illiteracy and the Government has gone a long way to overcoming this problem by encouraging UPE, universal primary education, and in the long run we think this will counter the problem.

Senator O’Rourke

I thank the Chairman and the contributors for this opportunity.

Senator Mooney

On a point of information, in 1996 an international report indicated that Uganda had more than 26% illiteracy. It should be emphasised, however, that Uganda is a shining example to the other countries of Africa by what it is doing, despite its problems, in the areas of primary education where there is 95% involvement, which is a significantly increased figure, primary health care, infrastructural development and good governance.

This is not just an issue of development aid. As the witnesses will be aware, AWEPA, the parliamentary grouping of western European parliamentary members, has been and continues to be involved in the area of good governance. In discussions on constitutional change and the possible introduction of a multi-party system, I hope Uganda will not lose sight of what seems to be an admirable representational parliament that includes 56 district women - I am sorry we have not the time to find out more about how they are elected - and five youth, five disabled and five worker representatives. In a multi-party situation, and if the method of election is changed, it is going to be difficult to ensure that type of representation. We, obviously, will have that difficulty here but it is part of what they call good democracy. At the same time there is merit in what Uganda is doing here. I hope it will continue, especially the participation of more women in parliamentary activity, which is a low percentage. The high percentage of women participating in Uganda is an example to us in western Europe.

Is there any state involvement in broadcasting in Uganda? I am talking about the electronic and not the printed media. Is it entirely and exclusively in private hands or does the State have any involvement? It is an important factor in the plurality and diversity of Uganda's culture and society.

I am sure I speak for all of my colleagues who met with Ugandan ministers at the end of August when I say there is enormous goodwill for what is being done in Uganda, despite the difficulties and the harsh questioning here. We, in Ireland, have lived with the ethos of aid to Africa since we were children, especially through the missionaries. Most people in Ireland are aware of what is going on. That might explain the concern about the allegations regarding the aid budget, as used by the Ugandan Government. I am delighted the delegation is here and I wish them well.

Acting Chairman

In football parlance, we are in extra time. However, Senator Leyden wishes to make a very short intervention.

Senator Leyden

The delegation is very welcome here to explain the situation in Uganda. Because of our close links to Uganda for a very long time, it is important that the Irish people understand this matter. We want to continue these links and to see Uganda progressing.

I commend what the Ugandan Government is trying to achieve with regard to AIDS-HIV which is causing enormous difficulty in Africa. With the advent of generic drugs, is Uganda getting a fair share from multinational drug companies in assisting people with AIDS in the provision of cheaper drugs? Drugs can prolong the lives of HIV-AIDS sufferers.

Acting Chairman

A number of interesting questions have been raised. If a short reply is not possible we must draw our discussion to a close. This has been a very useful and constructive meeting. Irish parliamentarians like to talk and exchange views and we could go on for quite some time. I thank the delegation for coming here. I welcome you and I wish you well for the rest of your visit. We have particularly good weather which I think you will enjoy, although our temperatures are not as high as you would like them to be.

Mr. Ssekandi

Chairman and honourable members, I thank you for the opportunity to meet you and to interact with you. We have learned a lot. Where we have failings we are going to correct them. I thank you for your support. The issue of HIV-AIDS is still a problem. We hope the international community will come to our aid so that we can get cheaper drugs and our people who are suffering can live longer.

We shall ensure that human rights and good governance are on course and there is no backtracking on this. It is our resolution to improve good governance and democracy.

Uganda is an agricultural country. Permit me to present to you these products of our agriculture. Since women are more involved in agriculture, I request the Honourable Beatrice Rwakimari to present these gifts to the committee.

Acting Chairman

Thank you, Speaker. We appreciate this gesture.

Mr. Ssekandi

I request the member for the workers, the Honourable Martin Wandera, to present a painting of the Ugandan Parliament.

Gifts presented to the joint committee.

Acting Chairman

I am delighted to accept these two gifts on behalf of our parliamentary colleagues. Having had a preliminary look at the parliamentary commission of Uganda document I am impressed to see that it contains all the principles of a thriving democracy. I look forward to those principles being implemented.

On behalf of myself and my colleagues, I present you, Mr. Ssekandi, with a small gift in remembrance of your visit.

Gift presented to Mr. Ssekandi.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 October 2003.