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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 9 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 33

Foreign Affairs, Human Rights, Common Security and Defence Policy Committee of the European Parliament: Presentation.

I welcome our guests this afternoon from the Committee on Foreign Affairs, Human Rights and Common Security and Defence Policy of the European Parliament. The delegation is led by the committee's chairman, Mr. Elmar Brok, MEP, who is accompanied by the vice-chairperson, Baroness Emma Nicholson, MEP, and members of the committee, Mr. André Brie, MEP, our former colleague and long-time member of the European Parliament, Mr. Gerard Collins, MEP, Mr. John Cushnahan, MEP, who is also known to us, Mr. Armin Laschet, MEP, Mr. Jacques Poos, MEP and Mr. Johannes Swoboda, MEP. Ms Rosemary Opacic and Ms Margaret Francois, officials of the committee, accompany the delegation. Also present are Mr. Noel White of the Irish permanent representatives in Brussels and Mr. Jim O'Brien head of the European Parliament Information Office in Dublin.

We are delighted and privileged to meet the delegation and we recognise we have a group who are particularly distinguished in European and international affairs. We have a fairly open forum in that we are facing into the Irish Presidency in the new year, which will be a very busy period for us. We anticipate five summit-level meetings during our Presidency between the EU and third countries - the US, Canada, Latin America, the Caribbean and Russia and Japan. At Foreign Minister level, Deputy Cowen will host the GYMNICH in April 2004 and we will have various other important meetings, with all Ministers visiting Ireland at some point during that time. We welcome our involvement and we have been very busy in relation to enlargement, a topic we have worked on for a number of years. Although we had a slight problem in that regard we resolved it in a referendum.

Very important issues will arise during the Irish Presidency and which arise today, including the relationships between the EU and the UN, between the EU and the US, the Middle East peace process and the EU relationship with Africa. The latter is very important and this committee knows that the EU is the biggest contributor to Africa; not many people know of the impact and strength of the EU's work in Africa. We would like to hear from the delegation in that regard, particularly regarding the new partnership for Africa's development, NEPAD; there is great hope in that development but we recognise the extent of the problems.

During our Presidency we will also be concerned with the western Balkans and specifically crisis management and conflict prevention. There are many major issues involved but this is a very interesting, challenging time in which it is stimulating to be part of one's own country and part of the EU.

I will throw the debate open but perhaps the chairman would like make some introductory comments.

Mr. Elmar Brok

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to have this discussion. We had a discussion over lunch with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and later we met the Taoiseach. These discussions are taking place because we wish to prepare ourselves for the Irish Presidency of the EU, which will be a very important one. It will see the signing of a new constitution and, if we are successful, enlargement. It will see the first consideration of a new Commission and Commission President.

At the same time we are in quite a difficult international arena. The Middle East conflict presents more problems than ever. The situations in Afghanistan and Iraq are unsolved. We must discuss these difficulties and how we will fight terrorism together. Tensions in the transatlantic relationship must be overcome in order to solve such problems. We proposed to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that, in the first week of the Irish Presidency the President of the European Union, the foreign ministers of the United States and Russia and Kofi Annan would go together to the Middle East to show what can be done together to find a new approach to solving this problem?

This might lead to a better situation. We have told the Irish Government that we, as the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament, want to play a constructive role in that and support it. This is important because of our common interests and the possibilities of the European Parliament. It also means that we have a good relationship with the committee concerned with foreign affairs in the Presidency country. Therefore, we are happy to meet the joint committee. I hope we will maintain this contact during the term of the Irish Presidency. I hope the joint committee will have an opportunity to visit Brussels during the Irish Presidency for a common debate with our committee and to follow the deliberations of the Irish Presidency. Everyone would be free to say what they wish but I propose that we discuss questions such as foreign affairs and the Irish Sea as well as the Middle East, Iraq and the wider Europe, including Russia.

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to have this discussion.

Baroness Emma Nicholson

I share our chairman's pleasure at being with the joint committee. We are grateful to you for this opportunity for discussion.

We share a common perspective, as foreign affairs committees, on the need to hold governments to account. For a long time our committee has discussed our view that the development of a common defence and security policy and a common foreign policy lacks the scrutiny and accountability of the involvement of the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament or of any arm of the European Parliament. The argument with the foreign ministers lies in their statement that they report back to their national parliaments. That is true. However, the variation in the ways in which national parliaments are either authorised or equipped to handle those reports and the variations in the substance, quality and volume of the reports from ministers to their national parliaments is vast, as one would expect. On top of that, when these decisions are made in a group in the Council of Ministers it is very hard for a national parliament to grasp all the minutiae of what the ministers have been doing.

We ask for the joint committee's support and help in making this a shared responsibility. We see it as a weak spot in the democratic armoury of accountability that the European Parliament has been so carefully excluded from common foreign policy and common defence and security policy.

Mr. John Cushnahan

Chairman, you mentioned the scale of the EU contribution to development aid. It is useful to mention, in the context of the Irish Presidency and the conclusion of the Intergovernmental Conference, that the EU is the biggest contributor of development aid in the world. We supply more than 55% of all development aid in the world. We also have twice as many embassies as the United States. Nevertheless, we do not exercise the same degree of clout on the geopolitical stage. One hopes the Intergovernmental Conference, which most people expect will be concluded during the Irish Presidency, will take a strong step towards remedying that problem. The reason we have been unable to exercise influence is the fragmented way the EU deals with foreign policy. With the creation of the post of foreign affairs minister we might be able to reopen the question of qualified majority voting on foreign policy in the Council and of more involvement by the European Parliament, as mentioned by Baroness Nicholson. This will go a long way towards ensuring that we speak with as much influence in global politics as we do in economic affairs. I wish the Irish Presidency all success in bringing the Intergovernmental Conference to a successful conclusion, if that falls within the remit of the Presidency.

The European Parliament is very frustrated with the way the Council of Ministers surrenders fundamental principles in the area of conflict prevention. We have programmes in the European Union for the promotion of democracy and human rights. The problems in the developing world are not solved by throwing money at them but by getting rid of dictatorial regimes and by strengthening human rights and democracy. Trade and aid agreements are a mechanism for this. The first article in the third generation trade and aid agreements often commits those who are agreeing with the EU to have an appropriate record in human rights and democracy. Unfortunately, when geopolitical or trading interests are at stake the Council often abandons those principles. During our stewardship I hope the Irish Presidency will ensure that those principles are upheld.

I am very pleased that this meeting is taking place. It is a very good idea. I thank the joint committee and our president, Mr. Elmar Brok, for taking the initiative in getting us all together. We have already had two valuable meetings today, with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and with the Taoiseach. During the meeting with the Minister for Foreign Affairs there was a very full exchange of views by both sides on a series of issues of complexity and political difficulty that will have to be faced and dealt with.

It will be helpful to the Irish Presidency that the Irish Government understands the view of the European Parliament, bearing in mind the role of the Parliament in all these matters and its role in the decision-making process in approximately 50 chapters across the spectrum. This realisation is just beginning to dawn.

During our meeting with the Taoiseach we pursued other matters. We also had an open and frank discussion with the Taoiseach on the five summits mentioned, the difficulties that take place and how he sees, from his experience in recent meetings with other Heads of State and government, he might make progress in this area.

The invitation from our committee president, Mr. Brok, to the chairman and his colleagues to visit the foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament is good. I would encourage colleagues here to avail of that invitation particularly on the occasions as suggested by Mr. Brok and perhaps while Commissioner Chris Patten or Mr. Javier Solana are present. At those meetings we get first hand reports on the complex situation of the Middle East or wherever. These could be very helpful.

Baroness Nicholson mentioned the necessity for more openness and transparency within the European Union. This is an area where considerable progress has been made, certainly in the past five or six years, but we still have a long way to go. We welcome the fact that part of the legislative machinery in Europe, the Council, is now prepared to have its meetings in public and allow members of the press view what is happening. That is a wonderful step forward and was only announced in recent days. We have yet to see the details of it but we welcome that it has been agreed in principle.

On the major point she made concerning developments in the defence policy area, the issue is so complex, political, and so much part of the responsibility of the governments of member states that we must be very open in its respect. We have to explain in great detail what is involved on the work the Intergovernmental Conference has to undertake, particularly in this country. I say this for the benefit of my colleagues because whether we like it or not we have to get the public to decide by way of referendum on these issues. The more debate we have on them and the more opportunities we have of explaining them the better. The committee knows this better than I because Ireland has been doing a lot of this. We think that is very important.

The Chairman mentioned the question of NEPAD and what is happening in that regard. It is a political problem at present. I speak from experience of the issue. Only two days ago I presided over a meeting in the European Parliament of the group that has responsibility for South African affairs. We had the ministers of the SADDC countries, including Zimbabwe, at the meeting. The political problems there will have to be resolved. We discussed NEPAD, its value and how it will bring about peer judgment and play its part in ruling out corruption and anti-democratic procedures and how it will keep everything right and proper. This is the major issue.

We have major difficulties with Zimbabwe. We had a major difficulty in South Africa itself in regard to the issue of HIV-AIDS. We welcome the recent about turn by President Mbeki on how this subject should be approached. The scientific evidence on HIV-AIDS is accepted throughout the world and it is not right for anybody in this day and age, particularly a head of state, to try to get the public at large to accept that there is no scientific evidence to prove that this particular scourge of a disease is anything other than something one might pick up off the road like an apple or a piece of fruit. However, the attitude is changing.

The issues of NEPAD and SADDC are very much part of the European Parliament agenda. They come primarily before the development committee and arise in the context of the ACP-EU trade discussions. There is a focus on these matters. The amount of moneys going to South Africa as a whole is massive. We have visited South Africa on a number of occasions to examine projects financed by the European Union on behalf of its members. We have made considerable progress but we need to do something meaningful about HIV-AIDS. Some 600 people are dying daily in South Africa as it is. The situation is difficult but we have not lost sight of it.

Briefly, it is good to be here. I hope we have more meetings. While we would like to unburden ourselves of the European Parliament's view on different issues we would like to take this committee's views on board also.

Mr. Johannes Swoboda

I wish to mention two issues. First, I wish to take up the issue of European defence and our security and defence policy or identity. I come from Austria, a small country that is formally still neutral, and perhaps its situation is similar to that of Ireland. Of course the concept of neutrality has changed quite a lot. Joining the European Union, sending military to other places and taking part in many difficult security and defence issues changed the situation. The fact is that it is a non-alignment to a military alliance.

The question we must ask is whether a stronger European defence policy and defence identity would, rather than being a substitute for NATO, be a way where many of the neutral or non-aligned countries could join in bringing about a strong European Union and bringing force and backbone to the European foreign policy. Many people ask, for example, why we did not prevent the break up of Yugoslavia. We could not prevent it with just a foreign minister. I have nothing against foreign ministers but we need a stronger position or something in the back to use as a reserve. That is not the important point but I will of course put the question to our colleagues as to what the situation is in their view. As Baroness Nicholson said it is very important.

More and more we see, especially in foreign policy but also in some other fields that decisions are more or less taken out of national parliaments although there is some reporting back. The argument always is that it was agreed already and so it is done. However, it is not. It is taken slowly step-by-step out of the control of national parliaments but it is not given to another parliamentary institution, the European Parliament. It is in a grey zone in between and calls for co-operation between national parliaments and the European Parliament is important. It is important to meet at the grey zones or inside the grey zones in order that vital decisions do not evade parliamentary scrutiny and control.

My second question to our colleagues, which was already mentioned by our chairman and president, is on the wider question of Europe and EU membership, especially that of Turkey. This will perhaps not affect the Irish Presidency too much but nevertheless it will be an issue. Before the European elections especially it may be raised in some of the countries. It may be important, together with the Cyprus issue, if it seems that, for example, there is an offer to help to solve the Cyprus question if there is a clear signal from the European Union concerning a date for the beginning of negotiations with Turkey. I invite our colleagues to say how they feel about this issue. Is it an important issue for them? That would help our consideration.

Mr. Armin Laschet

The Chairman mentioned in his opening remarks the relations between the European Union and the United Nations. This is an issue on which our committee and a national parliament can exchange views. The European Parliament decided in March to prepare a report on this issue after the Iraq crisis because we saw in that crisis the need to strengthen multilateralism and the system of the United Nations. We were also at the end of the debate in the convention that resulted in the decision that the European Union has a legal personality. Both of those issues changed the situation. This is a new situation where we have to give answers.

We started with this report in March. The commission reacted and presented its report on 10 September and our committee discussed on Tuesday this week for the very first time a report that we will discuss in the next month. This report has ideas on crisis prevention, on reforms of the United Nations, on better representation of the European Union in New York from the different institutions, the Council, Commission and Presidency, and in the Security Council.

It will be decided at the end of the year and will end with the visit of Kofi Annan to the European Parliament. It would be a good idea to present this report to the committee and to hear its recommendations so that some of the committee's ideas can be included and the debate broadened.

I ask the delegation to bear in mind that Ireland is the next parish to America. There are 44 million people of Irish origin in America and just four million here in the Republic.

Mr. Jacques Poos

I join my colleagues in thanking the committee for the warm reception we received on our first visit to Irish soil and the good discussions, which have been organised with the members of the foreign affairs human rights and defence committee of the European Parliament.

I was the rapporteur for Cyprus, one of the accession states that will join the Union on 1 May 2004. Cyprus still remains a question pending, not that its membership is in question because that will happen, but it could become a member as a divided country. The committee will be aware that in the treaty the acquis communitaire has been suspended in the occupied territory of the north of Cyprus but the Council is obliged to amend the treaty in the sense that the acquis communitaire can be applied to the whole island if a political agreement is reached before 1 May 2004. It remains our hope that this will happen and if it does so, the Irish Presidency will have the last chance to achieve an agreement on the basis of the Annan plan. We do not have to invent the whole problem right from the beginning, just as we do not have to invent the Middle East problem where the peace plans are on the table and they just need to be implemented.

Elections are being held in the north of Cyprus on 14 December. We hope that the Opposition parties who are in favour of the Annan plan and the entry of the entire island into the European Union will be the winners. This would be a signal to Turkey to press for a solution before 1 May. The sequence is that the Cyprus problem must be solved before the European Commission makes its final assessment on the Turkish candidacy. If the Cyprus problem is not solved by the end of 2004, Turkey may not be given a date for the commencement of negotiations for accession if it does not recognise the accession of the Republic of Cyprus as representing the whole island according to the United Nations Security Council resolution.

With the committee's permission I wish to speak about the situation in Iraq and the Middle East. These are issues that are on our agenda. The committee will be aware that the last plenary session of the European Parliament held in Strasbourg passed a resolution on Iraq. It was quite astonishing that it passed with a trans-party majority. This resolution requests some kind of political agenda, some kind of road map. The word "road map" was not used so that confusion could be avoided. The phrase "political agenda" was used to mean a clear UN mandate for a political transition and the transfer of sovereignty from the occupying powers to the United Nations and then to Iraq after a given period.

We are about to finalise a resolution on the Quartet road map for the Middle East. We have realised a number of compromises in the foreign affairs committee in order to secure a large majority in the plenary session. The report was drafted by one of our Spanish colleagues and was passed by a majority of 40 to four with four abstentions in the foreign affairs committee. We expect it to be passed with a good majority in the plenary session.

This resolution supports the road map despite the fact that it is running into terrible trouble. It supports the theory of the two states with clear borders between the two states based on the two for two resolution. It also includes details of our suggested solution of the problem of Jerusalem and the problem of the return of the Palestinian refugees.

This committee supports the road map but it realises the difficulties and the problems that will emerge as the road map proceeds. It seems to be the best option available at present.

I welcome the members of the delegation. I am pleased to hear their views and have an exchange of views with them. It seems there is very little dividing us. The Joint Committee on European Affairs is chaired by Deputy Gay Mitchell. It met the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, yesterday, in advance of the General Affairs and External Relations Council meeting next week. We discussed in some detail the agenda for that meeting. Baroness Nicholson spoke about the need for greater transparency and accountability of the business of the EU with national parliaments. Recent legislation enacted in Ireland could serve as a model. Apart from having quite a hard-working European Union scrutiny sub-committee that meets fortnightly and examines issues referred to it on a mandatory basis within four weeks of receipt, it is the practice for the Minister to brief the committee in advance of those meetings. There have been very frank exchanges of views and even though the law does not mandate the Minister or tie his hands, the Minister then has a clear understanding of the view of the committee. For example, the Minister of State with responsibility for development aid, Deputy Kitt and his officials have appeared before the Joint Committee on European Affairs on a number of occasions.

Mr. Collins adverted to the issue of Zambia and elsewhere. The debate on Irish development aid to Uganda became a major national issue as a result of the debate initiated in the Irish Parliament. Having served for more than a year on the Convention on the Future of Europe, I believe that the European Parliament must be prepared to become more engaged with the public and more transparent in its actions. Mr. Elmar Brok and I were involved in some discussions on the proposals that the Legislative Council would meet in public session. That will be a step forward to inform the public, with all due respects to eminent members present who were formerly foreign ministers and whose appointments were decided behind closed doors. As Mr. Gerard Collins mentioned we in Ireland, and other countries, will have to take these issues to the public and persuade them of the value of what we are proposing.

Having come back from both COSAC and Croatia and Slovenia with Deputy Gay Mitchell, I hold the view that as Mr. Poos has said, much of the attention of the EU will soon need to be devoted to the western Balkans and Cyprus, and to how the Union engages with our new neighbours. In many cases they will be very new neighbours. If the Community does not have a policy that is fully thought through, we cannot take stability for granted. Having listened to the Minister, Deputy Cowen, in recent days it is clear that will be high on the agenda for the Irish Presidency.

I now introduce Deputy Gay Mitchell who is chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs.

I welcome the delegation, with many of whom I have worked closely. Mr. Elmar Brok and I were on the reflection group together. I am glad to see Mr. Jacques Poos present. We had considerable contact on the Council of Ministers. I say a word of appreciation to Mr. Gerard Collins and Mr. John Cushnahan for their support during our Presidency when I was Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs. While I did not have an opportunity to say it in the Dáil in their presence, I did say so at the end of the last Presidency.

As Deputy Carey said, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs now deals with European Union issues more proactively. The Minister appears before us each month before the General Affairs Council and all proposals for draft regulations and directives must come to our sub-committee within four weeks of being received by the Commission. We then decide whether they need further scrutiny. This is part of closing what is perceived here as the democratic deficit, particularly following the first referendum on the Nice treaty. Following a Supreme Court ruling on the Single European Act, we are obliged to hold a referendum on any significant changes to the treaty. So we are facing a referendum not as a result of a decision of our Parliament but as a result of a Supreme Court decision. Therefore, we must try to bring the people with us.

We asked the Secretary General of the Irish Congress of Trades Unions, Mr. David Begg; former Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald; former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. David Andrews; the former Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Noel Dorr, and the former adviser to the President, Ms Bride Rosney, to form a committee and advise the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs as to how we might influence the agenda of the Irish Presidency specifically in the area of the third world, focusing on development aid, trade and HIV/AIDS. We asked how we could drive that agenda forward. Famine is very recent in Ireland's history and the Irish diaspora came about because of that famine. We can try to pursue this issue with some credibility. I call on the delegation to ask our Minister about this at European level because he wants to advance this issue.

Baroness Nicholson touched on an interesting point. I can understand the difficulties she mentioned. I am very concerned about the blurring of differences between institutions, which is very dangerous. Arising out of the Convention report, I have a question about the role of the President of the European Council. Could that person also be President of the Commission? Could that person overshadow the President of the Commission? It would be a major mistake to fudge the differences between the institutions.

In our country the difference between the institutions is sacrosanct. While in Britain it is possible to be in the Cabinet, head of the judiciary and chairman of the House of Lords at the same time, it is not possible here. The separation of powers is absolutely sacrosanct. We should follow that principle in the European union and not just as between the institutions of the European Union but also as between those institutions and the member states. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Certain matters are excluded from co-decision by the Parliament and the Counciland are reserved for decision by nationalparliaments.

It is my view and that of my party that it is time to end Irish so-called neutrality. Irish neutrality cannot be regarded as being defined by principles that people would understand. While its genesis is in the partition of the island, I accept that in people's minds this has moved on. Fine Gael has published a document on this matter called, Beyond Neutrality. We believe the way to do this is to leave the door open for the neutral or non-aligned states.

When the Union comprises 25 states, if there are four, which are outside, it will be very difficult to make any impact. States will be able to point to the fact that four are outside and thereby justify staying outside also. Central to this is the proposed protocol on defence, which we have yet to see and which still needs to be negotiated. It is not a question of re-opening the Convention, this protocol has yet to be defined and debated. I would like to see the mutual defence clause of the Western European Union, article 5, or something like it not as a full treaty provision, but as a protocol to it. It would be quite acceptable for 21 of the member states to sign up to this from the beginning and other member states could join and have it as a protocol rather than a full treaty amendment. That would leave the door open and in time when states see how it operates, they might conclude the protocol was not needed.

As things stand if a member state of the European Union were attacked, there is no question but that Ireland would come to the assistance of that member state. It is not a question of whether we would assist, but a question of compunction or automaticity. That is a difficulty for us. This is an issue that needs to be addressed and we have an opportunity to do so. While there are people who take a different view on this, if we were to join NATO tomorrow, particularly following the Good Friday Agreement, I believe we could do anything in the context of Northern Ireland which has been a member of NATO since 1949 and we probably would not need a referendum. If we were to join a European defence entity we would need one, particularly since the second referendum on the Nice treaty when we gave constitutional status to what was de facto the case.

This will be in the constitutional treaty, which we will have to put to the people. It is time for Ireland to bite the bullet, but we cannot do so without a protocol that gives us the sort of options I am suggesting.

Deputy Mitchell was expressing his party's position and not the position of the committee.

The Chairman might want a third party.

Everybody knows that my party is the only one that got off the fence on this issue.

The question of development aid is very important. We have made considerable progress on this in recent years. Our contribution has increased to 0.41% of GDP as opposed to 0.7% and it puts us sixth or seventh in the world in terms of contribution. We have purposely moved up the ladder in recent years and are very anxious to highlight that issue especially at this time as we prepare for the budget. This needs to happen in all countries in so far as it is possible.

I join other members in welcoming our visitors from the European parliament. Tá an-fáilte rompu agus tá súil agam go mbainfidh siad tairbh as an chuairt atá siad ag tabhairt ar an tír seo. I hope their visit will be profitable. We have only a brief opportunity for an exchange of views. To enable the delegation to relate the views of a foreign affairs committee from a member country to those of a committee of the European Parliament, I will refer to some of the issues we have been discussing this year. As a strong supporter of enhanced powers for the European Parliament, I believe we should speak very frankly to each other. As we face into European Parliament elections next year, there is an immense problem among European citizens, in terms of loss of political trust. Among other things, the loss of political trust is related to issues which have occupied a great deal of time at meetings of this committee during the past year.

Thinking back on some of these issues, as one of the longest serving members of the committee, I find that some issues have not changed and some have worsened. The most incredible event of the past year was, undoubtedly, the strike against Iraq. No foreign affairs committee at national or European level can retain any credibility if it fails to take an unequivocal position on the principle of pre-emptive strike. I cannot accept the sincerity of anybody who speaks of multilateralism and an increased role for the United Nations while equivocating on the principle of pre-emption. Pre-emption is a dangerous principle. We have seen it extended, not only by the United States Administration but also in the context of Israel's attitude towards Syria. The language of those who seek to justify the principle of pre-emption is extraordinarily similar and is a major contribution to the justifiable loss of trust on the part of citizens right across Europe.

Developments in this regard have been facilitated by a damaging confusion in certain quarters.

I compliment the delegation on the clarity of the position adopted by their committee in not running the issue of the strike against the twin towers into the anti-terrorism debate. However, those who seek to use pre-emption have done so in a cavalier fashion, abusing language, distorting facts, fabricating reports and alienating the public. That is clearly evident and the public will speak on it. Frankly, I do not believe the European Parliament has been served well by the Commission's representation of it in the Middle East on the quartet and the road map. In fact, the representative of the European Union has been humiliated more than once in the course of his visits to the Middle East. The vacuum created by an ambivalent US attitude towards the road map was not adequately filled by the European Union at a crucial time, in my view. That task remains unfinished.

On development aid, many delegations have appeared before this committee over recent years and that will continue. It is right to draw attention to the volume of aid from the European Union to the Middle East and all over the world, by comparison with that of the United States, where, I believe, aid represents about 0.1% of GDP and is heavily tied and conditioned. Perhaps that is a matter for another day. During my initial involvement as a parliamentarian, development was spoken of with optimism. As an academic for 25 years, I wrote in this area. However, development aid today is 30% less than in 1980. On debt, the traffic from south to north is €128 billion per day. We are also aware of the situation to trade, following the collapse of the Cancún conference.

I wish to refer to our Chairman's comment about our pride in meeting our UN target. The reality is that whatever aid is transferred globally is less than 48% of what is exploited in trade terms. Cancun has ended with a disastrous result, in terms of the abandonment of the Doha commitment to a development round. All of us, in our respective foreign affairs committees, will be challenged as to how we respond to that situation. There are basic issues on which, I regret to say, I do not see an enthusiastic convergence in the Union at times. I refer, for example, to the calculation of our relationship with Africa. For every 1% of GDP additionally spent on health and education in any one African country, child mortality falls by 24%. Why are we not campaigning, with one voice, for a sustainable debt that takes account of such matters as child mortality? Regrettably, we have not yet reached that point on aid, trade, debt and other issues.

In terms of rebuilding trust and taking a positive view, a number of things are possible. One such possibility is to realise that the discourse is totally inadequate. The position of those who speak of security in an entirely military sense is quite extraordinary. They are in a minority in terms of political and philosophical writing on this subject. Security, in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, included such issues as eliminating poverty and removing the sources of insecurity. How does it contribute to security to demonise all of Islam? What debate is there on political Islam, moderate Islam and so forth? How widely held is the suggestion across Europe that the Islamic state is inherently undemocratic? I would welcome a debate on that. While my colleague, Deputy Mitchell, seeks a debate on neutrality, I seek a debate on Islam during the Irish Presidency.

Of course, I would also welcome a debate on neutrality, having written in the 1970s and 1980s about positive neutrality. Positive neutrality involves a discourse that does not need war. In fact, in the Irish case, it precedes the existence of the State. It involved the question as to why working people should die fighting other people's wars. It rolled on from there and was concluded, though not initiated, by Mr. de Valera. Today, it is about building an adequate definition of security that includes the elimination of poverty and the understanding of other cultures, ethnicities and religions. It also relates to the question of eliminating wasteful expenditure on the arms trade, on which many of our colleagues in Europe have a disgraceful record of exporting large volumes of arms to the poorest countries in the world. It also involves addressing issues of aid, trade and debt, so as to create a sustainable capacity for living together.

I have noticed that certain waves, as it were, go through Europe. There was a certain moment when most speakers on internationalism in the United Nations agreed with the UN resolution that regarded the blockade of Cuba as illegal under international law. Now, many countries have suddenly been able to leave aside the illegality of that resolution and have put pressure on Cuba in an extraordinary way, seeking a common European position that will address the human rights side of the equation, but not the illegality of the blockade.

All of those issues are a matter of fundamental trust. Those of my constituents who regularly discuss foreign affairs issues with me expect those issues to be addressed during the Irish Presidency, as do I. In case there may be any impression that we believe all we are told on Africa, NEPAD suits the donors very well. As we know, foreign direct investment is less than 0.4% of world FDI - in fact, it is nearer to 0.1%. International money ran away, as it were, from Africa, but attempts are being made to get it back. The NEPAD initiative is centred around four countries that have given much more to transnational corporations than they have to elaborate discussions with their own people. Consideration needs to be given to pursuing a needs-based approach to the economy, for example, as well as restructuring sustainable debt above the line I mentioned. I am sorry for speaking at such length. I wish I had more time to speak, however, because the presence of my valuable and estimable colleagues is so provocative to me.

We are all under time pressure at this stage.

Mr. Brok

I thank the members of the committee for participating in this interesting debate. Foreign and security policy is clear-cut at this point. It is a question of prevention at European level. The European Parliament is responsible in budget terms. National Parliaments are responsible for defence and armaments. Although there is a clear-cut division of responsibilities, things can overlap in many cases. It is important that we keep in contact with each other and speak to each other. The Irish Government and the European institutions need to share the information that will allow us to keep control when decisions are taken. We have started a tradition of inviting the chairpersons of national Parliaments' foreign affairs and defence committees to discuss these matters with us every four months, approximately. Mr. Solana, Mr. Patten and others are involved in the process in order to develop something from it. This is necessary so that national Parliaments can fulfil their roles in respect of the executive branches. We have to do it under those conditions after the constitution has been decided, so that we can see what is needed.

It is important that we bear in mind a point relating to Ireland that was discussed when the Treaty of Amsterdam was being negotiated. We must have an agreement that a neutral or non-aligned country can live with. I said to the Minister for Foreign Affairs today that there is not so much of a difference for NATO countries. Majority voting cannot be used in respect of military matters. If it is decided that there will be European action, only those troops from countries that have approved the action in their Parliaments will be allowed to participate. Nobody doubts that national responsibility and sovereignty must be retained. The structured co-operation instrument has been helpful. This coalition of the willing leaves no doubt that there can be action under certain conditions - for example, the Council and the countries taking part should have overall control of the involvement. It is important that every country that wishes to join or not to join will be able to make its own decision. This openness must be clarified under this protocol.

The solidarity clause in Article 5 of the Western European Union treaty relates only to the countries that have signed the treaty. Many member states that have not signed up to it are not covered by the legal obligation of the solidarity clause. Regardless of whether this is done within the constitution or via a protocol, our old idea that has been mentioned again today, it must be clear that legal obligations exist only in respect of those countries that have signed up to it and have decided to do it. If one does it in an open manner, it should be possible to move forward. It will be open to Ireland to join when it wants, but every country can decide whether or not to join in such matters.

I thank the chairman and the vice-chairman of the EU committee, as well as the other distinguished members of the delegation, for attending this meeting today. We would like to organise a reciprocal visit on another occasion, perhaps during the Irish Presidency of the EU. I wish our guests bon voyage and success in the rest of their meetings and discussions. I am sorry that we did not have more time, as we could have continued for some time. I realise that the members of the delegation would like to have about ten minutes to tour the House before they leave.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 October 2003.
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