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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 18 Dec 2003

Vol. 1 No. 41

Representative of the Dalai Lama: Presentation.

The first item on the agenda is the exchange of views with the Dalai Lama's representative. As can be seen from the agenda, the following item is EU scrutiny, after which we will go into private session for correspondence and the attendance at the parliamentary forum on Africa to be held in Rome.

I welcome to the meeting Mrs. Kesang Takla, the Dalai Lama's London-based representative for the United Kingdom, Ireland and Scandinavia. Mrs. Takla is accompanied by Mr. Neil Steedman and Mr. Anthony O'Brien from Tibet Support Group Ireland. They are all very welcome.

Mrs. Takla has been invited here today to brief the committee on the current situation in Tibet and on the present status of contact between the Tibetan and Chinese Governments, with particular reference to the two visits by envoys of the Dalai Lama to China and Tibet in the last year. Before we commence, I remind the meeting that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I invite Mrs. Takla to address the committee, following which I understand Mr. Steedman will make a short statement.

Mrs. Kesang Takla

It is a great honour and privilege for me to address the Irish Parliament's Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs on the issue of Tibet and the continuing suffering of the Tibetan people. While addressing this august committee, I cannot help but recall the years when Ireland took the initiative in sponsoring United Nations General Assembly resolutions on the issue of Tibet. Ireland's then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Frank Aiken, in appealing to the United Nations General Assembly during its debate on Tibet in 1959, stated:

Looking around this assembly, and looking at my own delegations, I think how many benches would be empty in this hall if it had always been agreed that when a small nation or a small people feels in the grip of a major power, no one could ever raise their voices here; that once there was a subject nation, it must always remain a subject nation. Tibet has fallen into the hands of the Chinese People's Republic for the last few years. For thousands of years, or at any rate for a couple of thousand years, it was as free and as fully in control of its own affairs as any nation in this assembly, and a thousand times more free to look after its own affairs than many of the nations here.

Mr. Aiken further stated: "The sympathy of the Irish people going to the victims of imperialism is nothing new. It goes out to the people of Tibet in their present suffering as it did in the past." Mr. Aiken quoted from Terence MacSwiney, a role model for all those engaged in non-violent struggles. Terence MacSwiney said: "It is not they who inflict most but those who can suffer most who will conquer."

At the same time, I cannot help but recall the moving reception given to his Holiness, the Dalai Lama, when he visited Ireland in 1973. Ireland was one of the first western nations that his Holiness, the Dalai Lama, visited after his exile in India in 1959. His visit then was in part to thank the Government and the people of Ireland for their consistent and strong role in taking the initiative in raising the issue of Tibet in the United Nations General Assembly.

From this platform, I would like to express our deep appreciation to Mrs. Mary Robinson, who, when she was President of Ireland and later the Human Rights Commissioner of the United Nations, expressed by her words and actions deep sympathy for the plight of the Tibetan people, and who took courageous steps to effect a positive change in China's human rights behaviour. On behalf of his Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and the Tibetan Government in exile, I would like to use this important and respected forum to put on record the Tibetan people's heartfelt appreciation for these contributions that Ireland has made in the past to highlight the tragedy of the Tibetan people. At the same time I thank all those concerned in providing me with the honour of saying a few words on the ongoing tragedy of Tibet.

As far back as the 1950s, when the Tibetan tragedy was fresh on the conscience of the international community, his Holiness, the Dalai Lama, appealed to the international bodies, including the United Nations, to persuade the People's Republic of China to initiate a process of negotiations to resolve the issue of Tibet peacefully in the interest of all parties concerned. This has been the consistent approach of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Since then, His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, has articulated his views on the satisfactory settlement of the issue of Tibet in two important documents. One is the five point peace plan, which His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, announced at the Human Rights Caucus of the United States Congress in 1987. The other is the Strasbourg Proposal, which His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, released before the European Parliament in Strasbourg in 1988. These two documents constitute what has come to be known as the "middle way approach" formulated by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama.

The "middle way approach" is based on the premise that Tibet will remain as a part of the overall political framework of the People's Republic of China. It recommends that the People's Republic of China regulate and supervise the defence and foreign affairs of Tibet. In return, China must allow the six million Tibetan people to function as one administrative unit. This administrative unit must be given the freedom to decide and determine all the domestic issues of Tibet.

The "middle way approach" of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, also calls for the restoration of the whole of Tibet as a zone of non-violence and a sanctuary of environmental protection and promotion. The demilitarisation of Tibet in stages will restore to Tibet its former role as an effective buffer between the world's two most important and populous nations - China and India - and will contribute to Asian stability, peace and prosperity.

Although China has rejected these proposals as a disguised form of Tibetan independence, I am happy to report that beginning from September last year, China has accepted two visits of the envoys of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. We have welcomed the Chinese acceptance of these two visits because we feel they are a positive development. His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, is always of the view that regular contacts and face to face meetings will contribute to creating an atmosphere of mutual trust, understanding and respect. To expand on these two visits, the Tibetan side has requested a third visit of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama's envoys and we await a response from the Chinese side.

Regardless of these visits, the situation in Tibet still remains grim. Our concerns on the present situation are focused on two major areas. One is the ongoing Chinese population transfer to the Tibetan plateau and the other is massive development projects initiated in Tibet. We feel that both these policies will further reduce the Tibetan people to a minority in their own land, marginalise the Tibetans and deprive them of all of the benefits of development.

The development projects that are being initiated in Tibet by the Chinese authorities are of enormous and lasting concern to the Tibetan people. We believe these developments projects, including the construction of the railway line connecting Lhasa with China, are geared towards accelerating the exploitation of the natural resources of Tibet and to have these resources transported to China to meet coastal China's increasing demand for energy, water and mineral resources. Apart from fundamentally changing the traditional way of life of the Tibetan people, these projects are attracting large and increasing numbers of Chinese settlers, who come to Tibet to take advantage of the development boom and the administrative bias towards employing Chinese settlers in all state-run enterprises.

In view of these concerns, we feel that it is absolutely necessary for the European Union to increase its pressure on Beijing. In particular, we feel that the European Union should continue to hold China accountable for its appalling human rights record. It is our belief that a consistent and strong commitment by the European Union to the value of civil liberties and human freedom will send a strong message to the Chinese government that China cannot be an exception from upholding the principles of human dignity and individual choice.

The European Union's position on human rights in Tibet will be made much stronger and its commitment reflected much more clearly when the European Union appoints a special representative for Tibetan affairs. We believe the appointment of such a representative will be interpreted by the leadership in Beijing as an indication of the seriousness of the European Union in facilitating a negotiated settlement of the Tibetan issue. We also believe that an amicable solution to the issue of Tibet will naturally lead to the end of human rights violations in Tibet.

At the same time, the appointment of a European Union special representative for Tibetan affairs will facilitate a dialogue and eventual negotiations between His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and the leadership in Beijing on the vexed and protracted issue of Tibet. The appointment will also be a clear and concrete signal of the EU's support for non-violent freedom struggles. It is our firm belief that one effective way for the international community to combat the scourge of terrorism is to lend effective political support to non-violent freedom struggles. Human logic and the grim political realities of our present world suggest that it is foolish to combat international terrorism while at the same time ignoring peoples who have been consistently struggling non-violently for their lost rights and freedoms. Successful non-violent struggles, supported whole-heartedly by the international community, will become models for other similarly downtrodden people and show to them that there are peaceful ways for conflict resolution. In view of this, we feel that the appointment of a European Union special representative for Tibetan affairs will constitute a major step in facilitating dialogue between Dharamsala and Beijing. It will go a long way in resolving the issue of Tibet peacefully.

As members of the committee are aware and we are happy to note, in the last couple of years China has released three prominent political prisoners. They are Tanak Jigme Sangpo, Ngawang Choephel and Ngawang Sangdrol. Tanak Jigme Sangpo is at present in Switzerland and is undergoing medical treatment. Both Ngawang Choephel and Ngawang Sangdrol are in the United States of America. While we welcome their release, we also request governments around the world to urge China for the speedy release of all the political prisoners in Tibet, including Gedhun Choekyi Nyima who, in 1995, was recognised as the 11th Panchen Lama by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Since his house arrest in 1995 - at the age of six - we have no idea where the young Panchen Lama is, or where are his parents.

Another major concern is the fate of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche who, along with his attendant, Lobsang Dhondup, was arrested and charged with involvement in a series of explosions in Sichuan province. Regardless of numerous and prolonged appeals by the international community, Tenzin Delek Rinpoche was sentenced to death, which was reprieved for two years while Lobsang Dhondup was executed on 26 January 2003. We have every reason to believe that the charges against these two Tibetans were politically motivated. Tenzin Delek Rinpoche is a popular religious leader in eastern Tibet. Both are known for their loyalty to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Tenzin Delek Rinpoche in particular is respected throughout eastern Tibet for his social work, such as building monasteries, schools and health clinics in impoverished Tibetan areas.

Until now the local Chinese authorities have yet to produce any compelling evidence of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche's involvement in explosions, while the prosecutions have not yet met the minimum standards of the due process of law. On 18 January 2003, in a taped message smuggled out of Tibet, Tenzin Delek Rinpoche said: "Whatever the authorities do and say, I am innocent." We appeal to governments around the world, particularly the governments in the west, to use their influence to stay the execution of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche and urge the Chinese authorities to release all prisoners of conscience.

Once again, I wish to express my profound appreciation for being given this opportunity to speak about the issue of Tibet and the plight of the Tibetan people from this very important forum. I respectfully request that the committee does everything in its power to urge the Government to introduce and implement the appointment of an EU special representative for Tibetan affairs during the forthcoming Presidency of the European Union. Thank you.

I apologise for the delay in starting the meeting. Members are used to such delays, which usually, as in this instance, arise because of votes in the Dáil. As it is the last sitting day before Christmas there are many votes to be taken. There is another vote now, which means that the Deputies must leave while the Senators can stay. Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who is on the Opposition benches, and I have agreed to stay here, the Senators will remain and the Deputies will return shortly.

It is a sensible arrangement. We all appreciate the fact that the Chairman and Deputy Michael D. Higgins have stayed.

I hope that we are not shot because of it. I thank the witness for her statement and I ask Mr. Neil Steedman to speak.

Mr. Neil Steedman

I thank the members of this committee for giving me the opportunity to add some words to those just presented. I echo Senator Norris's appreciation of the committee's pairing arrangement.

As a visitor coming to ask something of the Government, as an experienced diplomat and as a typically polite Tibetan, Mrs. Takla has, quite legitimately, pointed out some of the many occasions on which the Government and people have expressed their solid support for the cause of the Tibetan people. I would add to that list the publicly-stated support for the Tibetan people's right to self-determination made by the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, when in China a few years ago. Tibet Support Group Ireland believes that this support continues to be as solid as it ever was among the Irish people. It is my duty to point out, however, that on a number of occasions over the past decade or so, the Government - I struggle to be as diplomatic as Mrs. Takla - has not been as supportive of the Tibetan people as it could or should be.

In 1989-90 the then Government announced its intention to vote against Senator Mary Robinson's motion on human rights in Tibet, resulting in her strategic decision to withdraw the motion from the Seanad. When His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, visited Dublin a few years later, the Cabinet, led by the then Taoiseach, Mr. Charles Haughey, chose not to meet him and President Mary Robinson was, to use the word, "discouraged" from meeting him. To her ever-lasting credit, President Robinson opted to meet the Dalai Lama in her private capacity - a decision that subsequently resulted in two Ministers of the then Government, Deputy Bertie Ahern and Senator O'Rourke - who is present - also choosing to meet him in their private capacities. That was very much appreciated and I thank you. I am certain that Mr. Des O'Malley, a Minister in that Administration, would also have so chosen had he not been in Asia on a trade mission. He assured me that he would have done so. Given the posts currently occupied by Deputy Bertie Ahern and Senator O'Rourke, I retain some hope for the present Government.

Mr. Steedman

However, this time last year, the Department of Foreign Affairs stated that Ireland would not sponsor or promote an EU resolution on human rights in Tibet or China at the 2003 UN Commission for Human Rights in Geneva. To date, it has not been positive about the many requests for the appointment of an EU special representative for Tibetan affairs. Furthermore, on 5 November 2003, in a written answer to a Dáil question put by Deputy ÓSnodaigh, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, told the Dáil: "Ireland established diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China in 1979, and has, from that time, recognised Tibet as an integral part of China."

The second part of that statement is untrue. Some members will recall that I raised this issue during my previous meeting with the committee. My assertion that Ireland did not recognise Tibet as an integral part of China in 1979 was confirmed by a then committee member, MichaelO'Kennedy, who was Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time. He assured the committee - I assume it can be found in the minutes of the meeting - that Tibet was not referred to in the diplomatic documentation and nor was it meant to be referred to in any covert or overt way.

The position outlined in the Dáil by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, was also not Ireland's position up to the middle 1990s. Tibet Support Group Ireland has letters from the Department of Foreign Affairs confirming that. I invite the Minister, Deputy Cowen, and the committee to ask his Department officials to produce documentary evidence to substantiate his Dáil reply. Such a position, if it is now held without Dáil debate or approval, is not only contrary to international law and anti-Tibetan, but it is damaging to the very Sino-Tibetan dialogue that the Government claims to support.

Mrs. Takla has primarily come to Dublin to request the Government, during its forthcoming EU Presidency, to implement the appointment of an EU special representative for Tibetan affairs. If I am not mistaken, the current position of the Government and the Department of Foreign Affairs is similar to that voiced by the European Commission in a written response of 2 September 2003 to a question by the UK MEP, Mr. Bill Newton Dunn, concerning the Commission budget provision - in line B8-012 - for such an appointment. The reply states:

In the light of these developments [that is referring to the recent visits to Tibet and China by envoys of the Dalai Lama] the Commission wonders whether the appointment of an EU special envoy for Tibet would in any way enhance the current dialogue mechanism and whether, moreover, it would not be liable to trigger a reaction from China that would compromise the process of reconciliation initiated between the Tibetan representatives and the Chinese authorities and divest the Union of any mediating capacity.

Mrs. Takla has just given the answer by Tibet to the second part of that position when she stated:

We believe the appointment of such an EU special representative of Tibetan affairs will be interpreted by the leadership in Beijing as an indication of the seriousness of the European Union in facilitating a negotiated settlement of the Tibetan issue.

As for the Commission's and the Government's "wondering" about whether such an appointment will enhance the current dialogue, the answer is that an EU special representative for Tibetan affairs has been requested by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, by his two envoys - who are at the forefront of that dialogue - by the democratically elected Kalon Tripa, or Prime Minister, and Kashag, or Cabinet, of the Tibetan Government in exile, and by the democratically elected Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies, the Tibetan Parliament in exile. It has also been requested by the recently released Tibetan prisoners of conscience and victims of Chinese torture mentioned by Mrs Takla, namely, Tanak Jigme Sangpo, Ngawang Choephel and Ngawang Sangdrol, and also by the European Parliament in two resolutions. My belief is that the Tibetans themselves know far better than Irish or EU politicians or civil servants what will enhance or hinder the current dialogue.

If the Government fails to respond positively to these requests, Tibet Support Group Ireland will conclude that the legacy of Mr. Frank Aiken, who championed the cause of the Tibetan people at the United Nations, has been well and truly driven out of Leinster House. I ask the committee to ensure that, on the contrary, his legacy is brought back to prominence in Irish and EU foreign affairs.

Since my written statement was prepared, a meeting for this afternoon has been confirmed for Mrs. Takla with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with responsibility for human rights, Deputy Kitt, which I welcome. They have met before and the Minister of State has demonstrated a personal interest in, and a welcome level of understanding of, the Tibetan issue for the past decade or more.

I will leave with the Chairman documentation about an EU special representative for Tibetan affairs as well as detailed documentation about the case of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche. I thank the members of the committee for their time and attention.

I welcome Mrs. Takla. It is important that we keep up these contacts. We now have a committee of parliamentarians who support the State of Tibet. It should not be necessary to state, but I think it is, that to be supportive of Tibet does not mean to be antagonistic to the people of China. I and most people on this side would not feel antagonism towards the Chinese Government or its people. I have visited the People's Republic of China on many occasions and always found it most fascinating and enriching.

There is a real problem for Tibet and also for Ireland. A significant change has been attempted by the mandarins - I think that is the appropriate word - in the Department of Foreign Affairs, but in my opinion it has not been legally justified. They set about changing Irish policy without debate and without any kind of accountability. This is clear from Mr. Frank Aiken's statements on Tibet in the late 1950s and from the correspondence that has been generated by the Department of Foreign Affairs confirming the position as we know it. Yet, in this briefing document to the committee, we have this rubbish, which states:

Since 1971 Ireland has recognised the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China. Both Ireland and the EU formally recognise the 'One-China' policy. We do not, therefore, have diplomatic relations with the Tibet Autonomous Region, which we regard as part of China.

I ask that this be withdrawn and sent back to the Department of Foreign Affairs for clarification. It is unacceptable as a briefing document because it is not true. If it is true, this committee, which was established so that the Department of Foreign Affairs should be accountable to the Irish people, has much explaining to do. We should ask about the background and also require officials from the Department to come before the committee and answer to the representatives of the people. It is not tolerable that this type of violent policy shift should be made by unelected people in the ivory tower of Iveagh House.

Mrs. Takla's comments accord with my beliefs regarding world peace. How can the notion of a war on terrorism be sustained if we do nothing to encourage one of the principal areas of the world where there has been consistent and heroic application of non-violent methods and where the leadership has always espoused non-violence? If we want to encourage a more peaceful world, this is one thing we should certainly do.

We should consider the appointment of a European rapporteur for Tibet. We should have a discussion with a view to recommending to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that he supports this channel of information and communication. What can possibly be wrong or suspect about it? We have the clear endorsement of the representatives of the Tibetan people. If we are serious about human rights this is something we should do.

I suggest we take the initiative in inviting the Chinese ambassador, a charming and civilised person, to come to discuss these issues with the committee. We should ask specifically about the fate of those named Tibetans who are held in captivity and who are perhaps being subjected to torture as we speak. From my experience - I have attended the Inter-parliamentary Union on a number of occasions - the naming of people has an effect. The committee should question the Chinese ambassador on the position of prisoners X , Y and so on in named prisons. I suggest this because although there is an apparent softening of the Chinese line, and a much more sophisticated diplomatic stance, I understand from contacts with various people and from Amnesty International that the abuse of human rights is increasing behind the facade of a more sophisticated foreign policy initiatives and that is where we should be concerned.

We should ask for clarification and accountability from the Department of Foreign Affairs with regard to this unannounced change by stealth in a matter of foreign policy. We should have a discussion leading to what I hope would be support for the appointment of an EU representative and we should continue with our representations on named personnel. Finally, we should support the Dalai Lama's initiative, which seems incredibly moderate when so many thousands of people have been killed, tortured and brutalised. I have been to Tibet and seen the degree of supervision, military oppression and the huge transfer of the population which is continuing all the time. The proposal is a middle way in that it accepts Tibet being part of China from the point of view of foreign affairs, military defence and so on, while only looking for the preservation of its own distinctive way of life. Nobody who has been to Tibet could have any doubt that it meets the requirements of nationality; the Tibetans have a different racial grouping, series of languages, religious and cultural background and are separated geographically by a plateau of mountains. There is no question or doubt in my opinion.

This is a very moderate proposal. I suggest that we take these initiatives on the situation in Tibet without antagonism to the remarkable people of the State of China in an attempt to resolve a situation between two ancient and historic people, in which one is clearly the underdog as a result of imperialistic expansion.

I welcome Mrs. Takla and wish her success during her visit. By way of background, there have been questions on Tibet at every Question Time in the Dáil dealing with the Department of Foreign Affairs, which comes up every five to six weeks. According to my files, I have raised approximately four questions. I apologise if my office has not circulated those to Mrs Takla, but they are on the website. The parliamentary group that is supportive of the Tibetan issue is being revived and as a member I wish it well. Sometimes we are dragged in several different places, but Senator Norris and others are consistent supporters.

Senator Norris has raised an important point about the nature of the discourse on the issue with Tibet. It is not necessary to be anti-Chinese to be in favour of discussing this issue. But I have perceived a difficulty in raising the issue of Tibet, Tibetan culture and people in that it is communicated that one is speaking of matters about which one should not. When I try to tease this out with some representative of the People's Republic of China whom I visited and for whom I have an enormous respect, I find that the issue of sovereignty is introduced. In the evolution of human rights thinking, it is being seriously questioned as to whether one can advance the sovereignty argument as a barrier to discussing rights issues. The advanced thinking by people such as Professor Sannum and others who worked in Somalia is that we have to move to a point at which we will be concerned about human rights and cultural and economic rights inside borders. I cannot subscribe to the view that the question of sovereignty, which has an historical justification, can be put up as a barrier and that questions on what is happening behind the borders of a country cannot be entertained.

Others, including Senator O'Rourke, have met the Dalai Lama. I was part of the Foreign Affairs delegation that went to China and Tibet in September 2000. Again, taking up a point made by Senator Norris, it was helpful to be able to raise specific cases. We raised them in two places - Beijing and Lhasa - and some answers were provided to us. I am sure we did our best but I am also sure it was not nearly sufficient in terms of what we were asked by the Tibetan Support Group. I returned home with no answers about certain people, which still distresses me. I do not want to go into the detail of cases now but the location of the Pancha Lama and others is not academic. I got the impression in Lhasa and elsewhere that one was asking uncomfortable questions, but that is what friends are for. It is an exercise of friendship that people from other countries ask the uncomfortable questions. I too have an enormous respect, as Senator Norris stated, for the people of China - two of my sons have taught in China in the past two years.

I suggest that Tibet is not the only diverse and distinct culture in the great space that was China historically. Within the People's Republic of China many other diverse regions are respected. Why can progress not be made on this issue? As a former Minister for Arts and Culture, my impressions of the expansion of economic activity and infrastructure was such that it did not constitute normal commercial activity but was making profound and deep transitions in the life of the Tibetan people themselves. I could not but get the impression that a people was being swamped. After returning I read about the temple structure, about those who had been forced to India and others who had been forced over the mountains. These are not academic matters. It is a matter of a people being entitled to their integrity in their sense of belief, culture and way of life.

Possibly the most attractive way for an outsider to view these matters is to consider them as part of a middle way. The middle way is powerful. In this regard, the answer in response to questions raised on the last time the matter was raised at Question Time in the Dáil amounted to an admission that, unfortunately, the middle way was distorted, which is a classic Irish position. At different stages the Government has given answers to questions in terms of what is called the 'One-China' policy. As a spokesperson on foreign affairs for a very long time I can confirm that the 'One-China' policy never included in its original position the legitimising of the annexation or the occupying of Tibet. The policy has been distorted to suggest that there is an integrated region. This in turn distorts the concept that is at the heart of the middle way - a genuinely autonomous region enjoying autonomy with dignity, respect and integrity. Absorption, including the cultural smothering of a people, abuses of human rights and so forth cannot be regarded as acceptable.

I support the appointment of a European Union representative to deal with the matter of Tibet. It is practical and is becoming urgent. The economic transitions in the People's Republic of China are such that they are tending to black out other aspects of China's relationship with the European Union and the wider world. I hope it does not appear appallingly arrogant to state, as someone who has written about and discussed globalisation, that I see it as representing an enormous challenge to the people of China in all their diversity. I worry about the ease with which a myth of transition through globalisation can be accepted by a country with so many thousand years of history and so many different strands of diversity. If I was to counterpose the acceptability of Rupert Murdock on the one hand and the unacceptability of diversity of culture, such as Tibetan culture on the other, what conclusion would I come to? It is for the people of China to decide these matters, but as an academic, they are not idle questions. They affect what we are discussing today as well. I was horrified to some extent at what I saw along the main street, where the Tibetans were not participating in even the undeveloped forms of commercial activity. There was considerable evidence that the cultural infrastructure was barely hanging on and, of course, the evidence is everywhere that people are being forced to migrate.

I remember having a pleasant conversation with some people in China about Confucianism and neo-Confucianism, reformers and so on. What is at stake - and this is why globalisation worries me - is that a massive transition within the People's Republic of China, that includes Tibet, will effectively wipe out a whole way of life. Whether I or anybody else likes it - I was always in difficulty with certain Marxists because of my rejection of the materialist basis and my advocacy of a cultural interpretation of those basic texts - it can do incredible harm.

The following practical points are important. It is important that we clarify the position from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the confusion that has arisen between the Department following the 'One-China' policy and the suggestion that this can, by lazy work, retrospectively seek to legitimise something that was not accepted as a principle of foreign policy. As the next holders of the Presidency of the EU we should be able to talk to our friends. How could the idea of a European Union representative not be of enormous help?

I disagree profoundly with the Department on one other aspect, that is, the suggestion that no discussions can take place except in the context of a dialogue between the EU and China with China allowing the Tibet issue to go on the agenda. That will not drive on the middle way. The importance of a president being appointed means that, in many cases, the item arrives on the agenda of the discourse and the dialogue on its own merits. It is an issue that is important not only to the European Union but to all of us, and the people of China. I hope people will accept when I say that I believe it is enormously strengthening of the people of China, who have demonstrated in other regions and areas an extraordinary ability to be able to incorporate the needs and aspirations of people from different traditions and history and so forth. However, it does not mean one can use that as a means of turning a blind eye to this issue. It cannot be neglected.

People who criticise what I have just said sometimes suggest, in an incredible way which I find most objectionable, that the kind of economic transition about which I have been speaking is modern and that what has existed for thousands of years and is based on a belief system that is essentially structured in peace and recognition of other cultures or non-violence is somehow backward. I am at the end of my life as an academic, but nothing has been more offensive than the view that countries that are materialist and urban and modern and very like the Western world, and a particular part of it - in the interests of absence of controversy I will not name it - are modern and developed and that people who structure their lives in a totally different way are somehow backward. That view is evident in the context of the statement that we are driving Tibet into the modern world. No one has the right to treat people like that. It is a test of our own maturity when people say that there will be so many people living on the planet and that they are all important.

This matter needs energy now and in the context of the EU Presidency. It needs clarification at the level of the Department of Foreign Affairs. It needs acceptance of the positive proposals on European Union, not to think into bureaucracy but to attach them directly to the talks taking place between China and the representatives of the Dalai Lama and in relation to the middle way. The committee should recommend this approach to the Department and seek support for it. Given the kinds of rapid changes that are now taking place in the People's Republic of China, it should also recommend itself to that country.

I am glad to be here. I commend Mrs. Takla for visiting us and for the work she has put into the cause. What she is doing is not easy. That she is here is proof of her determination and that of her chairman and secretariat who facilitated her meeting with us.

I also thank Mr. Steedman for his kind words. The story behind them is more complicated. I was glad to travel privately to Tibet. The then Taoiseach put no stay on me but agreed that I should go. That is in mitigation of other words about him. I felt very ennobled by that meeting. I can still remember very strongly how I felt both during and after the visit.

I am unclear about some matters on which the Chairman and the Minister might elucidate when we have finished our contributions. I echo what both my colleague in the Seanad, Senator Norris, and my friend and colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, said when I say that I cannot see how one can be construed as being anti-something if one is for something else. Both have indicated how perplexed they are at this and have expressed the hope that their position will not be interpreted in that way. I would join with them in that. It is old-fashioned to say that if one is for something one is against something else. That sort of argument has had its day. All over the world there are conflicts in which resolution is sought via dialogue and the making of alliances. We also see it here in Ireland. People seek to come together through discourse and dialogue. It is proper to emphasise that the fact that we express certain views about Tibet does not mean we have ill feeling towards China. That is far from being the truth. I found this argument interesting in the context of a different issue, namely, how glad we were about the capture of SaddamHussein in Iraq. At the same time, we do not believe President Bush's stance in announcing that people be executed is the right one to take. We take a much more modern approach.

I recommend and am very interested in the middle way that the Dalai Lama has put forward. The British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, espouses a middle way in Labour Party politics in the UK which involves not being so much in one corner or another but carving out a space. That is what the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans are seeking to do, to carve out their space without any feelings of antagonism or mistrust.

It would be good if this committee was able to aid the discourse and debate on this important issue. China is important, but Tibet is also important. Size does not always indicate the importance of a project. We see that ourselves. Our country is small vis-à-vis Europe and the rest of the world, yet we can influence several matters. Size is not relevant in such circumstances.

Picking up on what Deputy Michael D. Higgins said, we need clarification on the viewpoint of the Department of Foreign Affairs on this issue. The Minister has quoted the reply to a parliamentary question in the Dáil. By their nature written answers suffer from a paucity of words that do not lead to genuine debate. A written answer gives the facts but there is no chance to develop points. We therefore seek from the Department further clarification on where Ireland stands concerning Tibet and the Tibetans in exile, and the very moderate way in which they are seeking to put across their point of view. If there is moderation, and there appears to be, and a genuine wish to make progress, then that moderation should be met by moderation from another quarter. In the week before Christmas and in the spirit of seeking a resolution to what has been a very long debate, the committee seeks clarification on that issue.

The European Union should give serious consideration to the issue of the ambassador or plenipotentiary to the Tibetan nation. That would be a further step. The first step is to seek clarification from the Department of Foreign Affairs as to Ireland's position. I retain a strong interest in this cause.

I also welcome Mrs. Takla and Mr. Steedman. Mr. Steedman mentioned the legacy of the late Frank Aiken. I agree totally with what he said on Mr. Aiken's support for Tibet and his support for China. I also agree with those who say if one is in favour of Tibet one is not necessarily against the People's Republic of China.

I support the idea of a European Union special representative for Tibetan affairs and I hope there will be a favourable response from the EU. I gather from Mr. Steedman's statement that this is not forthcoming. I also agree that we should invite representatives from the Department to discuss the reply given in the Dáil by the Minister. What has been said about Tibet being a buffer zone between two large countries is very important.

I understand the middle way approach involves demilitarisation or non-violent sanctuary. The proposal being put is very effective. It is important to raise, as a matter of urgency, the issue of political prisoners or people awaiting execution because the People's Republic of China has, unfortunately, a dreadful human rights record which we should highlight. It is important, as Deputy Higgins said, to name the people we are talking about when we talk of political prisoners and those who have been sentenced to execution. I support what has been said and again welcome the group.

I apologise for not being here earlier. I was called away as result of votes in the Seanad. I endorse the welcome given by my colleagues. As Mr. Anthony O'Brien will know, with my colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, I was a member of the delegation that visited China and Tibet in 2000, as referred to in the briefing notes. From your perspective, has anything changed or improved in the context of the continuing suppression of those who wish to enhance the Tibetan culture and who are seen by the Chinese authorities as promoting separateness? Has there been any positive effect on the ongoing dialogue between the European Union and China?

I acknowledge that Tibet has not been a separate issue on the agenda. However, it has been discussed under the human rights agenda between the EU and China. Has there been continuing colonisation of Lhasa, of which we saw evidence by the Han Chinese when we were there and who, in the main, seemed to be taking over or initiating new businesses in the regeneration of the commercial district of Lhasa? How involved are the Tibetan people in the economic regeneration that is going on? Is there any encouragement for them?

I accept, and Anthony O'Brien, who has lived with this for such a long time will also accept that the Beijing Government will put a very positive spin on what is happening in Tibet. If we were to agree with or believe everything that we are told we would think everything was fine and that the Tibetan people were very happy with the situation. However, there is no doubt in my mind of the consequences if a people is colonised and suppressed politically and culturally in the way in which the Tibetan people have been since the mid-1950s. We in Ireland have an echo of that type of colonial policy and can empathise with them.

I am not attempting to add anything new or to offer solutions. I support what has been proposed. I am anxious to get an update, without going into a lot of detail, about the particular issues that have been raised. The Beijing authorities have carried out the death penalty against a Tibetan religious leader and they are attempting to execute another, Mr. Rinpoche, in April. This is a somewhat new and sinister departure. While I understand - correct me if I am wrong - that the repression of Tibetan religious leaders and activists, and indeed nuns and monks, resulted in harsh treatment and imprisonment, it seems to be a new departure that they are now executing religious leaders, although I am sure our Chinese friends say it is because they have broken the law rather than because of any particular religious dimension.

I am very pleased the group is here. I compliment Mr. Anthony O'Brien yet again for his Trojan work in ensuring that this issue is kept on the agenda of this committee. He and Mr. NeilSteedman are the public face in this country of the plight of the Tibetan people. I hope that their efforts will bear fruit.

Mrs. Takla, would you like to respond?

Without any discourtesy to Mrs. Takla, I am sure you will agree, Chairman, that there has been a remarkable degree ofunanimity among speakers. Perhaps asummary——

I will come back to that.

Perhaps it could be done before some of our members have to leave. It sounds as if we have the basis of four points of action.

I have them listed. I want to allow Mrs. Takla to respond first.

Mrs. Takla

Regarding the human rights situation in Tibet, one has to look at the degree to which the Tibetan people are able to exercise their own basic rights. In the context of the western China development programme there is much talk about economic development also in Tibet. When visitors go to Tibet they will see new roads, many cars and things like computers and mobile telephones. However, if they really want to see how much the development benefits the Tibetan people they need to look further to see how much of that is really helping them to survive as Tibetan people, to keep their own language, culture and religion as we want to do.

Regarding the violation of human rights, I would like to say as an update that there is no improvement. Even as we sit here there are death sentences pending and prison sentences of a number of years. I have before me a human rights report which comes from the Tibetan Human Rights Centre in India entitled "Anti-Dalai Lama Campaign intensifies in Kardze and Lithang County". I cannot go into detail because there is not much time. For the people in Tibet even the freedom to keep a picture of the Dalai Lama on their altar is against the regulations of the Chinese authorities. That in itself tells the members of the committee how much control the Tibetan people are put under. If they cannot keep a picture of a respected spiritual leader in their own homes how much more freedom can you imagine the people in Tibet will have.

There is continuing violation of all rights. We have no idea what is happening to Panchen Lama. Tenzin Delek Rinpoche, who was mentioned by the committee, has a pending death sentence without much justification or reason. It is very difficult to understand the situation in Tibet when you look superficially. Some of our Chinese friends say their government is improving and that it does not want the Tibetans to continue to live with a 19th century level of survival. However, in order for Tibetan people to have their rights, no matter whether they have 19th or 21st century standards of living, if we are happy, that is what we want. That is very important for the Tibetan people. When there is development in Tibet the question is who are the beneficiaries. In my presentation today I have expressed our concern that the actual benefit for Tibetans is very hard to see at the moment. It is marginalising the Tibetan people in terms of their basic rights to employment, survival and the preservation of their culture and language. It means the assimilation of the Tibetan people among the huge numbers of the Chinese population coming into Tibet. In time it will reach a stage where the survival of Tibetan people in their own country will be difficult.

We are a non-violent nation. That is not only a verbal statement but a fact. We have implemented this now for almost 50 years and we continue to do so. As I said in my statement, if violence and terrorism are so terrible, why is it not possible to support this non-violent approach which we are not only talking about but implementing? From this point of view I urge the committee to remember the human aspect of the whole issue and to support Tibet in getting into negotiation with the Chinese authorities. Looking at different issues in the global community, even when there are wars, eventually a conclusion is arrived at by negotiation. We are trying to avoid violence and we want to go the right way, through negotiation and non-violent means. If that is the right way, which I believe the rest of the community believes is a universal responsibility, why can it not be supported? That is my question.

As Mrs. Takla correctly identified, the economic development in Lhasa is bringing great economic benefits to the region. Coupled with that, however, is the fact that the Dalai Lama is absent from modern Tibetan society. As Mrs. Takla said, his photograph is not allowed to be displayed and we have been made aware of that. Taking all those factors into consideration, and being practical and realistic, what level of support is there among the normal Tibetan population for a restoration of the Dalai Lama in a separate Tibet?

Mrs. Takla

It is difficult to put it in percentage terms but it is obvious that the Tibetan people, both in Tibet and in exile, look to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, as their spiritual and political leader. Even after nearly 46 years, the Tibetan people in Tibet still look to the Tibetan leadership, in the form of the Dalai Lama, to help them to obtain their rights. According to some of the propaganda that comes from our Chinese friends, the Tibetan people are no longer interested in the Dalai Lama's leadership, but that is not true. Some of the colleagues here who have been to Tibet will have had some feeling of how much the people of Tibet look to the leadership of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. It is most interesting that, if and when His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, resumes the leadership of Tibet, he will not seek independence; he is asking for a genuine form of autonomy. In fact, he is the one who is also saying that China should not be isolated and that development is good for China. It is a big nation that should be included in the global community. What more can we say than that? The Tibetan people are simply asking for their own basic human rights.

Mr. Steedman might like tomake a brief comment as we are running out of time.

Mr. Steedman

I thank the committee members for all their comments. I agree with the point everyone made, that to be pro-Tibetan does not mean one is anti-Chinese. I consider myself both pro-Tibetan and pro-Chinese. We welcome the presence in the public gallery of representatives from the Chinese Embassy, with whom we had a quick word earlier. I suggested the Tibet Support Group Ireland should invite the Chinese ambassador to lunch early next year and I hope he accepts our invitation.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins used two key phrases concerning what the Dalai Lama is proposing. He said the middle way is a powerful concept, and I certainly agree with that. He then used the expression "genuine autonomy", which is the phrase used by the Dalai Lama. In name, although not in fact, Tibet or part of Tibet is an autonomous region. Under the Chinese Constitution there is a facility for autonomous regions. The Dalai Lama's middle way is simply asking for genuine autonomy for the Tibetan people in Tibet, but within the structures, so that foreign affairs would be under the control of the Chinese Government.

I hope the Chinese Government will approve a third visit of the envoys, as requested. They are waiting for a decision on that. Last month, I spoke with both envoys in Prague. They said that on two earlier visits they had noticed a significant change in the attitude of the Chinese leaders with whom they had spoken, compared to previous visits in the 1980s. They said they were much more self confident, which was a good thing because it also meant they were much more interested in talking, debating and listening. They had an exchange of views and opinions. They did not agree - one would not expect them to - but at least they are talking and there is dialogue. In some areas, for example, environmental issues, including pollution, there was a high degree of common understanding. I thank the committee members for their comments.

We have been discussing the Tibetan situation for nearly two hours and some people may now have to leave, which would be unfortunate. Everyone has agreed on the four points so perhaps it would be possible to crystallise those and put them in the form of a letter to the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

If we allow Mr. O'Brien to make a brief comment we can come back to that point.

I would very much like to do that——

We will do so.

——otherwise all our energy from the time we have spent here could fizzle out to nothing. I would like to remind the committee that every person who has spoken was in accord with these four points, so even if they have to leave we can take it that there is support from all parties, which is very significant.

I endorse the Senator's view of getting a practical result from the meeting before it concludes. Since the change of leadership in China, the public face of the country has changed significantly. It is significant, however, that Amnesty International has reported an increase, in the last couple of years, in the use of torture, labour camps and the death sentence. For example, as recently as 8 September 2003, a Tibetan by the name of Tenzin Phuntsog died under torture in Shigatse.

The general EU view of China, and the response we always get, is that it is part of the dialogue. However, our experience has been that over the last ten years, during which the EU dialogue has been touted as the way forward, conditions are getting steadily worse, even as we speak.

Now we come to the Senator's point.

I am sorry for intervening so regularly. I hope I have not been a nuisance.

That is all right. I think everybody is in agreement that the "middle way" approach is an important advance, and that there is a need for a genuine form of autonomy in Tibet. The best way to proceed is, of course, through dialogue between the Chinese authorities and the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama himself has set that out as the way in which he wants to proceed.

On that point, Chairman, you could add the fact that the committee would welcome the facilitation of the return of the Dalai Lama's representative.

Yes. The meeting of the sub-committee on human rights will take place this afternoon and we will inquire from the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, about developments in that regard. One of the requests arising from the discussions was that we would ask the Department of Foreign Affairs to attend the committee to clarify the position in a number of areas. We will do so but we will first seek the clarification from the Minister of State.

Another matter raised was the question of inviting the Chinese ambassador to attend the committee to discuss the current situation in Tibet. We will also do that. Our objective is to support, encourage and facilitate the process of dialogue and the via media or middle way approach, which is now being followed by the Dalai Lama in conjunction with the Chinese authorities. We support that approach absolutely. We also want to encourage the EU to promote that dialogue.

As regards the question of the special representative, other persons or other means, we can and will discuss with the Department of Foreign Affairs the best and most appropriate method of doing that. There is agreement on that point.

Will you clarify that, Chairman?

You said there were two alternative suggestions but I only heard one about the EU rapporteur. You say there are two different, competing ideas?

There are no competing ideas, it is a question of defining what is meant, that is, whether in respect of one person, the term envoy, special representative or other titles infer a semi-ambassadorial role. Basically, it is a special representative. Essentially, we want to ensure that meetings take place and that the dialogue is developed. We want the European Union to encourage and promote that dialogue by the best means.

Every person who spoke supported the idea of an EU representative. This should be recognised and transmitted to the Minister for Foreign Affairs for his consideration. It is a fact that every single person from Fianna Fáil, Labour, Independents and so on has spoken in favour of it.

It should be recorded that there is no division and no alternative proposal. I may have confused things by using the word "rapporteur" instead of "representative" but it does not matter. We know what is involved and nobody is under any illusion.

The terms envoy and ambassador were mentioned also. We are talking essentially about a——

A special representative.

——special representative of some kind. We can decide on that. They can call it whatever name is appropriate but we can discuss that when we have our meeting with the representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

There is great merit in keeping the matter simple. In page three, paragraph four of her submission, Mrs. Takla states: "At the same time, the appointment of a European Union special representative for Tibetan affairs will facilitate a dialogue and eventual negotiations between His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and the leadership in Beijing." I accept that formulation and we should agree to it.

Everybody has spoken in favour of it, so I cannot see a problem.

Except that people said first that they wanted clarification from the Department of Foreign Affairs on a number of matters.

I have no objection to that.

Well then, let us proceed.

But it is in already. Everything the Senator is saying is on the record. He asked that it be recorded.

Yes, but that is not the same thing.

The Senator's comments are being recorded in their entirety. We have decided to take action on foot of our meeting here. I also wish to emphasise that everybody concerned wanted to make it clear, unanimously, that they support China's development. The fact that these problems need to be overcome is something in which we take a special interest. There is general support from the committee for the concept of a special representative and for putting that view to the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

We support the appointment of a special representative.

Yes, except that we do not appoint anybody. All we can do is to refer to——

We can support something without making an appointment.

That is right.

Can we include that clearly,as Deputy Michael D. Higgins has enunciatedit?

Yes, and that is clearly the unanimous view of the committee.

And that will be put in as he has suggested?

Yes, I have no problem with that at all.

Thank you very much, Chairman.

Our next step is to meet with the representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs, as we proposed, to discuss with them the issues which have been raised.

There is one other matter of a human context, if I might suggest it.

There are people at risk.

Yes, that is very urgent.

We should write to the Chinese in a polite way, inserting a preamble about our respect for China, but naming all the people who have been named in this report, and seeking further information. That could very well have the effect of postponing the date of execution and perhaps saving their lives. It can be done with no discourtesy; we are seeking information, we are aware of the situation, we have the names of these people and want clarification. That would be a great thing to do in the Christmas period, as my distinguished colleague, the Leader of the Seanad has said.

We arrived in Beijing, in 2000, with a list of 13 people. In the context of Senator Norris's comments, it would be useful to obtain an update from the Chinese authorities concerning the current status of those 13 people, about whom we requested some action.

That is an excellent idea.

My recollection is that there was some positive resolution in the case of one or two of them.

We got some information in Beijing and we got more information in Lhasa. However, we came home with no information on part of the list.

They seem to be rather sad cases and some were of a petty nature by western or Irish standards. That is the environment in Lhasa but we are anxious to know what happened to them. We should also follow up on a comment that was referred to by Mrs. Takla but which we did not pick up on, that is, the whereabouts of the Panchen Lama. At the time, we were given to understand the Panchen Lama was in good hands, that he was in the country somewhere and was very happy. The official view was that because the Chinese authorities were concerned about any invasion of his privacy, they were not in a position to give us any more specific information. I realise, however, how significant and important it is for the Tibetan community, both in Tibet and abroad, to know where their appointed religious successor to the Dalai Lama is currently located, as distinct from the individual who was appointed by the Chinese authorities.

The fourth point is that we should raise immediately the issue of imminent executions.

And detentions.

And other prisoners.

We have added to that since.

That is fine.

I was just outlining the four points. I thank the delegation for attending the committee today. As you can see there is great interest in the work you are doing. There is also great support for the middle way approach of the Dalai Lama and an anxiety to see it progressing urgently.

Mrs. Takla

In accordance with Tibetan tradition, Chairman, I will present you with a scarf.

It is very becoming.

Mrs. Takla

Thank you so much. I also have some books for you, Chairman.

Thank you very much. We have some items to deal with urgently in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.10 p.m. and adjourned at 1.20 p.m. sine die.

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