JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 17 Feb 2004

Ambassador of the Democratic Republic of the Congo to the UK: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome to the meeting His Excellency, Mr. Henri N'Swana, Ambassador of the Democratic Republic of the Congo to the UK. The Ambassador is accompanied by Mr. Bampegna Kayeye and Mr. Butu Kiwanda and Mr. Pierrot Ngadi of the Congolese Irish Partnership.

We are all aware of the dreadful problems with which your huge and diverse country is struggling, many of which are a legacy of the past. We are also aware that much effort has been expended recently towards achieving political stability in the DRC. We applaud these efforts and wish to support them in any way we can. After civil war, it cannot be easy to sit around a table with people who, only a couple of years ago, were sworn enemies. This is exactly what is being attempted today in the DRC.

How can Ireland and the EU practically support the transition to democracy in the DRC? We are aware that interference from outside countries has played a leading role in the recent violence in the DRC which may have cost more than three million lives. We welcome the progress achieved last year under the auspices of the UN in establishing good relations with the DRC's eastern neighbours, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi. We would like to ensure that any help offered by Ireland or the EU is helpful in bringing stability and good governance to the DRC rather than becoming another burden on the country.

We are interested in your opinion on what is required to bring a permanent end to the ethnic tensions and local wars which have plagued your country. Before I give the floor to you, I will ask a couple of questions which you might address in your presentation. I would appreciate if you could tell us a little about yourself. I understand that, in the transitional Government, the ministry of foreign affairs is run by the MLC. Is your background also in the movement? Can you tell us a little about the various factions of the Government and how they are co-operating? What are the prospects for and what is required to ensure free and fair elections in 2005? We look forward to your views on these matters.

The DRC is a successor state to the Belgian Congo and Zaire. One was a brutal colony run for the benefit of the colonisers and the other has been described as a "kleptocracy" run for the benefit of an élite. The DRC has never had any experience of representative democracy or stable civil society. It is made up of hundreds of distinct ethnic and tribal groups, speaking dozens of languages. Their cultural richness could be a great resource if the people living there felt that the state protected their rights and identities and provided a guarantee of basic security to ensure that their lives are protected in a peaceful way.

The DRC also has an abundance of natural resources which have been exploited, not for the benefit of the Congolese people but for invading armies, local élites and colonial powers. If these resources were exploited or developed properly in a sustainable way and the proceeds used for the development of the DRC, your country could potentially be richer than California. That seems a distant dream but I see no reason why, given stability, good governance, respect for the rights of all Congolese and a functioning rule of law, it could not become a reality in the future. Establishing these conditions will take time, effort and the political will of the international community and the Congolese administration and people, but what is the alternative to the long haul approach?

All the developed countries of today started from unfavourable initial conditions. All required the conditions I mentioned to climb out of their difficulties. Therefore, we remain hopeful that the DRC can overcome its problems and we, in Ireland, wish to be of assistance in that process.

With particular emphasis on the elections to be held in 2005, we would like to hear some of your views and members will have some questions.

His Excellency Mr. Henri S’Wana, Ambassador of the Democratic Republic of the Congo to the UK

Good afternoon. I understand the Chair would like me to introduce myself to you. As you know, my name is Henri S'Wana. I am 43 years old and I am a diplomat. The Chair asked about the DRC minister of foreign affairs, who is Mr. Antoine Ghonda, coming from MLC, the former rebellion group.

We have a national Government of transition and everybody is involved in the transition. After this transition, we want to go to elections and give to our population the opportunity to say who will be the head of state, members of Parliament and holders of other posts. Approximately six months into 2005, we expect elections to sanction people who were killers or bandits, because we now need conciliation. I have prepared a speech which the Chair might allow me to read. I will then answer questions from members.

Distinguished Members of Parliament, members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, ladies and gentlemen, let me begin by expressing my gratitude for the invitation and the warm welcome and hospitality I have enjoyed since arriving in Ireland. I very much hope that we will have the opportunity to reciprocate in the near future. I am particularly delighted to address this august assembly of a country which has made a significant contribution to the peace process in my country, as I will explain shortly.

I was asked to talk about the very important issue of the forthcoming elections in the Democratic Republic of Congo. As you will agree, this is a very complex topic, especially when one considers the number of actors involved at the national, regional and international levels. However, I will attempt to provide a brief overview of the issue around the following key points: a brief overview of the history of elections in the DRC, the transition and the electoral process and the conditions for successful elections.

It is important to note from the outset that the DRC does not have any experience or history of organising democratic elections. Apart from some local elections held in some areas in 1958, the only real experience of elections in the DRC was in 1960 at independence. These elections took place within the context of a parliamentary regime with proportional representation but resulted in a coalition Government since no party was able to attain a majority.

However, this marriage of convenience did not last because of irreconcilable differences between the leaders of various political parties. This lack of understanding between political leaders resulted in a political chaos, which culminated in a series of mutual dismissals between President Kasavubu and Prime Minister Lumumba. Amid this political chaos, amplified by the secession of the mineral-rich Katanga province, a second round of elections was attempted in 1965 but never succeeded. Taking advantage of this chaotic situation and helped by certain foreign powers, Lieutenant - later Lieutenant Colonel, General and then Marshal - Mobutu took power in November 1965.

In 1967, a second constitution was adopted limiting the number of political parties to two in order to address some of the problems experienced during the first elections after independence, which resulted in an unworkable coalition. However, this was never implemented as Mobutu went on to form his Mouvement Populaire de la Revolution, MPR, followed by successive amendments of the constitution, which resulted in the concentration of powers in the presidency of the Republic and the proclamation of a one party system in 1971.

It is within the context of a single party that a number of what could be called mock elections were held throughout Mobutu's regime. After the fall of the Mobutu regime in 1997, the country was engulfed in a conflict involving a number of our neighbouring countries until December 2002, when a peace agreement was agreed in Pretoria following a round of inter-Congolese dialogues.

What about the transition and electoral process? The transitional constitution adopted following the signing of the Pretoria peace agreement makes provisions for the organisation of free, fair and transparent elections at all levels within 24 months of the signing of the agreement. There are also provisions for extending the transitional period by a further six months, renewable only once. Since the signing of the agreement, President Kabila has been working relentlessly to make sure that elections are held within the agreed deadline. It is in this context that last month President Kabila urged members of our Parliament urgently to adopt legislation regarding the functioning of political parties and the institutions established to support the transition process. On the other hand, during his recent visit across Europe about a week ago in Paris, London, Berlin and Brussels and the European Commission, he reaffirmed his determination and that of the transitional national Government to hold elections in accordance with provisions included in the global and inclusive agreement. I ask members to accept his warmest greetings and his high expectations of seeing their Parliament develop a beneficial rapport with the Parliament of the Democratic Republic of Congo in order to exchange experiences.

There are two sets of conditions for the successful organisation of elections in the Congo: improvements in the general political situation and some technical and logistical considerations. The transition Government has set out a number of key objectives without which it will not be possible to organise free and fair elections in the DRC. They are the consolidation of peace; the reunification of the country's territory; the re-establishment of the Government's authority throughout the country; and national reconciliation. Members will agree that the organisation of elections can only take place if the above conditions have been met. In other words, the war must end effectively throughout the country, the Government's administrative machinery must reach all corners of the country and free movement of people and goods must be fully re-established.

Although we are still dealing with the legacies of this atrocious war and despite the massive destruction of the country's social and economic infrastructure, I can confidently say that we are in the process of meeting all these objectives. The transitional Parliament has been busy working on legislation which should allow the establishment of a new political order in the country in the near future. However, this positive trend has been hampered by some warlords who continue to challenge the Government's authority in some areas, a situation we expect to resolve with the support of the UN through its mission in our country.

The technical and logistical considerations are related to the electoral process proper and include the completion by Parliament of the electoral regulations, of the law regulating the functioning of political parties and of the constitution of the third republic. Besides these considerations, there are logistical issues such as the reorganisation of constituencies, a population census, voters' registration, training of electoral monitors and so on. Another key challenge will be the adoption of measures to guarantee the independence and authority of the electoral commission, which has been a problem in many African countries. This is particularly important in post-conflict situations where lack of trust in the electoral commission may result in resumption of conflict after contested elections.

While my Government is determined to deliver free and fair elections in 2005, it is also conscious of the existing challenges and limitations, which it is seeking to address by seeking support from the international community. In particular, support is sought in the following areas: population survey - the last one was held in 1984; logistical, infrastructural and technical support; election monitoring; and support for non-governmental organisations.

Members will agree that these elections represent a real challenge for my Government, particularly because of the specific nature of the recent history of my country. Unlike other countries where elections are held as part of a democratic routine, elections in the DRC carry a number of expectations, including healing the wounds of one of the most atrocious conflicts ever and the establishment of a new political order, which has been long overdue. Faced with this challenge, my Government is seeking support from all our friends and partners around the world and in particular from the Republic of Ireland, which currently holds the Presidency of the EU, at a critical moment in our history.

It would be ungrateful of me not to acknowledge the continuing support the Republic of Ireland has provided for the peace process and transition in my country through multilateral mechanisms at EU level. I express my wish to see this support further extended at bilateral level through direct collaboration between this Parliament and ours. My country will be grateful for any support the Irish Government can provide through the transition process, either through the UN mission to the Congo or directly to my Government. The people of the Congo need the support of the Irish Government at this difficult time.

Senator Norris

I welcome His Excellency, Henri N'Swana, the Ambassador of the Democratic Republic of the Congo to the Court of St. James, his staff, and his friend Mr. Piro N'Gado, whom a number of us know. As I had the opportunity to exchange a few words with the Ambassador outside, he already knows that I was born in the Congo and for that reason I have a special feeling for that beautiful, tragic country. I must say I feel the country protests too much by including the word "democratic" in its title. The Ambassador has indicated that the country is now attempting to earn that title. As somebody who loves that area, I must say that it is not entitled to it yet. It will be a struggle, but I wish the country well in it. I hope, for the sake of the people of that troubled area, that democracy can be achieved. However, the Congo is not democratic at the moment and it is not in a position, apparently, to protect its citizens.

Many of us are concerned about the involvement of foreign militias from surrounding countries; the Ambassador referred briefly to this. What is happening is astonishing when one thinks of the country's resources - the timber, the wonderful animal life, and minerals such as coltan and diamonds. For places such as Uganda, which do not have diamonds, Congolese diamonds are a principal export. What is the Government's view on this? There have been suggestions that Government troops may be involved in this and in corruption generally. Then there are the terrible problems of sexual violence, such as the use of rape as a military and political weapon. What are the Ambassador's views on these matters?

We are concerned about the issue of child soldiers in many countries, not just in the Congo, but I feel strongly about what is happening there. For example, one of our principal aid agencies has encountered soldiers as young as eight in Lulingu. Real concern exists and we will help in any way we can but we need to be assured of the capacity of the Government to protect the personnel and assets of the aid agencies involved. Can the delegation reassure the committee and the Irish agencies working there that they can be effectively protected?

My questions were sharp but they were not intended to be hostile. Unlike Mr. N'Swana, I am not a diplomat and I always speak my mind and those are the areas about which I am worried. I hope the Ambassador will be able to assuage those worries.

Deputy G. Mitchell

I join the Chairm an in welcoming the Ambassador and his colleagues. The figures in the briefing note on the humanitarian situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo are extraordinary. As a consequence of the conflict, 3.3 million people have died and a third of the population, 17 million people, do not have enough to eat. That is of concern to everyone. The humanitarian situation is urgent and we will do anything we can through this committee and our Presidency of the European Union to bring about the stability needed to correct those problems.

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights referred to the culture of impunity. He reported that all parties, including Government forces, have been implicated in gross violations of human rights. He suggested that violent crimes against women and girls, particularly in the east and north east of the DRC, have contributed to the spread of AIDS. The UN High Commission proposed the establishment of an international commission to look into serious human rights violations committed by all sides in the DRC. Would the Ambassador tell the committee the view of the Government of the DRC on that proposal?

The Ambassador mentioned that his Government is determined to deliver free and fair elections next year and that it is seeking support for a population survey - the last one was held in 1984 - logistical, infrastructural and technical supports and election monitoring and support for NGOs. How has the European Union responded to those requests?

Deputy M. Higgins

I join others in welcoming the Ambassador and the other representatives of the Congolese people. I agree that the history of the Congo in recent times has been tragic. I disagree slightly with the Ambassador's version of history from 1958-65; it was somewhat bland. It is necessary for people to come to terms with their history if civil society is to be restored. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, what happened in that period was not a clash between leaders. There was heavy involvement of colonial powers and a political leader was murdered and I see no advantage in dancing around that. This is a matter, as in the case of the murders that have taken place here, where one must have an authenticity of memory if one is to be able to manage the healing and reconciliation that will make the civil society possible.

We all wish the Congo well but there is a contradiction in the suggestion that one must wait until the government has achieved full control. How is that to be defined? Civil society must be strengthened and that, in turn, needs some daring steps, such as an unequivocal and general acceptance on all sides of an end to impunity, if one is to move forward. Often in elections, the assistance is not required at the point of polling but at the point of registration. Studies have shown that if there is to be manipulation of political outcomes, it takes place through a manipulation of registration rather than at the count itself.

I was at a meeting on AIDS and HIV in Africa this morning. In the Congo, as in other countries, there must be an integrated approach towards not just food sufficiency but the interactive effect between food insufficiency and HIV-AIDS. Senator Norris and Deputy Gay Mitchell have referred to this tragedy.

The country desperately needs to be given a space to reconstruct itself in difficult circumstances but has been and is being looted. It is extraordinary how it is impossible to expose those in the western world who are involved in purchasing material that is being looted from the Congo. It is one of the moral blind spots of the western world that it can never do this, no more than it can find those who are selling new generation light metal weapons to children.

We would be dishonest as parliamentarians if we said we are right behind the Democratic Republic of Congo and we all welcome the elections if we underestimate the seriousness of the situation. It flows from the history that has not been addressed. The nature of the Congo - the forces that are illegally there in breach of sovereignty - must be recognised.

The Ambassador requested assistance in civil society. In another life as a political scientist, I looked at election day behaviour and saw that the count does not cover 20% of fraud - 80% of fraud throughout the world is accounted for by abuse of the registration process. Therefore, any request for involvement in strengthening the civil society would require much earlier and longer-term observation than observation at election time.

The whole issue of the continuing failure to arrive at any conclusion on the United Nations investigations of looting in the Congo is unacceptable. What kind of sanction is it simply to suspend someone complicit in fraud and looting for international markets? It is the kind of mild approach we had here - maybe still have - but what does it do for the people of the Congo?

I refute the suggestion that the Congo has no experience of democratic consultation and elections. I wish the elections well. Even from this great distance I believe there was a very old Congolese history whose forms of democratic consultation might not be the same as the tokenism left behind by the colonial powers who sowed the seeds of the terrible devastation that is Africa today.

Senator M. Kitt

I join in the welcome to our visitors. What assistance has the European Union given to providing a police force and army and how successful have these systems been? What efforts has the Government made to accelerate the provision of the army and police force?

Deputy Wallace

I too join the welcome to the Ambassador and his delegation. The Democratic Republic of the Congo is better known here than most other African countries, dating back to the peacekeeping role of our Defence Forces, many of whom lost their lives, an event we commemorate every year.

The Ambassador said:

They are the consolidation of peace; the reunification of the country's territory; the re-establishment of the Government's authority throughout the country; and national reconciliation.

He also mentioned four key objectives as prerequisites for the elections:

the consolidation of peace; the reunification of the country's territory; the re-establishment of the government's authority throughout the country; the national reconciliation.

Reconciliation takes a long time in any society. How confident is the Government that these objectives can be achieved? I doubt they can be achieved, in light of the events of the recent past. Is there a real danger that no elections will take place? Perhaps the Ambassador could elaborate somewhat on the conference in his country on these issues.

Deputy Carey

My observations echo those of Deputy Wallace. The four preconditions for free and fair elections cause me to wonder will elections ever take place. We have seen here how difficult is the consolidation of peace. While the reunification of the country's territory is a laudable ambition it is hardly a short-term one. The same applies to re-establishing the Government's authority and national reconciliation. There is very little evidence that mechanisms for voter registration and citizenship laws are being set up with any degree of purpose, which makes one wonder how serious is the comment that the Government intends pursuing free and fair elections in 2005 or whenever after that it might choose. Given the questionable human rights record in the Democratic Republic of the Congo we would need reassurance of the determination of the transitional Government to pursue free and fair elections. How vigorous a monitoring of those elections would the Government welcome? That support would be available from experienced monitors from different parts of the world. How welcome would they be and how much freedom would they be given for the conduct of that election?

Chairman

It is over to the Ambassador now. There are serious questions there, particularly about the elections next year and the requirements for them. Deputy Michael Higgins made a very important point about registration being the key in the first instance. We are all familiar with the importance of that. In the Congo of course it applies to a vast area.

Mr. N’Swana

I thank everbody for these questions. I understand that there is a Congolese man here and in the near future he deserves a Congolese passport at least. There is now only one nationality for the Congolese so I hope we can change the law to overcome this confusion and process this passport.

I will respond to all the questions at once. These cover foreign militias, elections, the humanitarian situation, social violence and so on. Senator Norris said we have too many resources. A British politician said that the former president of Burundi told him the Democratic Republic of the Congo's problem is that it is very rich, whereas Burundi's problem is that it is very poor. We have many resources but people outside our borders see these and cause trouble in our territory by looting. That is why in the past Uganda pushed the Hemas and the Lendu to fight because some Ugandans were involved in looting resources. Uganda does not have diamonds and gold, and so on. We have everything but we need the support of the international community to protect us from the looters coming from Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi. The Congolese need to share their resources among themselves.

We are concerned about the situation in the Ituri region. If the Hemas people win the elections, then the Lendu people must accept the elections results. The main problem is how to educate the people in the region without Rwandan or Ugandan interference. They are still there with the help of some Congolese people and they continue to loot our resources.

My Government signed an agreement to demobilise child soldiers. We have begun sending them to schools as we need these children to rebuild our country. We are getting international support in this demobilisation process. The Democratic Republic of Congo's Minister of Defence, with patrons such as the Belgian and UK governments, is working to put an end to this matter. In the near future, we hope to report that we have closed this matter and there are no more children soldiers in the DRC. However, we are concerned about the eastern region because children continue to be recruited and sent to fight.

With regard to the humanitarian situation and HIV, as members will be aware, people came from abroad which increased the spread of the virus. We can deplore the fact that 3 million people died, however in the future more Congolese people will be lost again. When soldiers from Uganda came into Congolese territory, they spread the HIV virus. It is a dangerous situation in the eastern part of the Congo. What is needed is support from the international community to deal with the HIV problem. I agree regarding sexual violence. We are still burying women because they are dying from the virus.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins inquired about the colonial legacy. After independence was granted, there were many problems because only six of the leaders had gone to school. When Mobotu took power, unfortunately the real legacy that could be given to future generations was lost.

The DRC Government is not in full control and there is impunity for those involved in humanitarian crimes in the east. We are expecting the International Court of Justice to punish those people. If today we decide to leave, on behalf of reconciliation, the problem as it is, we cannot rebuild the country socially. Those people need to be punished by the International Court of Justice, with Ireland's help. Even without these conditions, we need to inform the DRC population who will be the head of state. The Congolese people deserve democracy.

We are working with the UN for the consolidation of peace and UN force numbers were increased last year. We need more police in Kinshasa and particularly in the east. There is peace in the west of the DRC but some troubles in the east. Last week, one member of the UN peacekeeping force was killed in the Ituri region. That is why my Government has asked the Belgian Government for help in establishing a police force in the Kisangani region to keep the peace before the elections. On the other hand, government is working in the western part of the DRC. People from the Movement for the Liberation of Congo, the Rally for Congolese Democracy and other opposition groups are working together in pushing people into recognising that we need peace to rebuild the country and have elections in 2005. In any case, there is no reason to extend the deadline of July 2005 for the elections. If they do not happen then, they will take place six months later in January 2006.

Deputy G. Mitchell

Does the Ambassador support the UNHCR call for a commission to examine the question of the culture of impunity? What about the EU's support for the logistical, infrastructural and technical needs for the 2005 election?

Mr. N’Swana

This is the period of reconciliation but there is a time to punish people. I understand the Deputy's question but as I mentioned in my speech to the committee, there is a commission working with people for peace and reconciliation. However, at the elections the people will decide and punish those people guilty of war crimes, as well as the punishments meted from the International Court of Justice. We have the commission working for peace and reconciliation. However, after that we need people to be punished for their crimes against humanity. All I can say is that we have to be patient.

Chairman

I thank the Ambassador for attending the committee to give us his views and answering the questions that were raised. We wish him and his colleagues every success. Ireland will give any assistance it can in the tremendous work the Congolese people have ahead of them.

Senator Norris

There was a clear indication that some European and multinational companies are involved in the illegal exploitation of the resources of the Congo. Is it possible to make the names of those companies available to a committee such as this?

Mr. N’Swana

Thank you very much. I know that the UN panel named some British companies and some others. We received a report from the British Government last month saying that there is no evidence that British companies are involved in illegal looting of resources. That is the answer I can give the committee now. We hope that the UN can send representatives again. The UN panel was requested by my Government and now there are some Belgian companies, some British and some others involved. We are still waiting for the British Government - if it can help us perhaps - to stop those companies arriving, but at least to help Congolese people to manage the resources themselves. That is what we need.

Deputy J. O’Keeffe

I take it that in Africa the issue of electronic voting does not arise in running a successful election.

Chairman

The register is probably the biggest initial problem. We are currently debating the issue of electronic voting. That will continue this evening. I thank the witnesses for attending. The meeting is now suspended for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 3.12 p.m. and resumed at 3.19 p.m