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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Thursday, 21 Apr 2005

Amnesty International: Presentation.

Members will have received a copy of the minutes of the previous meeting held on 24 March. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed.

We will now have a presentation by Mr. Jim Loghran of Amnesty International, who will discuss the organisation's work on the death penalty and prisoners' rights. Members will be aware that during our recent discussion on our work programme we highlighted both issues as priorities for the sub-committee. Mr. Loghran informs us that the death penalty and abuse of prisoners' rights are widespread. I hope our discussion will help us narrow the debate and allow us to focus our attention on some specific areas.

I draw Mr. Loghran's attention to the fact that while members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. I apologise on behalf of our absent colleagues, some of whom are not in the House today, while others are attending other committees. I invite Mr. Loghran to commence his presentation.

Mr. Jim Loghran

For how long should I speak?

The initial presentation should last approximately ten minutes, after which we will take questions.

Mr. Loghran

I have been invited to discuss the work of the Sub-committee on Human Rights and, specifically, to examine two issues, namely, the death penalty, which has been a long-standing concern of Amnesty International worldwide, and the broader issue of prisoners' rights, with which the organisation has been directly associated for many years.

It may be a useful exercise to place both issues in a broader context. Key current issues for Amnesty International are impunity with regard to the commission of human rights abuses, the lack of effective mechanisms for accountability and the increasing clampdown on human rights in the context of the war on terror. The issues of individual prisoners' rights and the death penalty fit into this broader context.

While Amnesty International acknowledges that we must confront the threat posed by terrorist groups, we must also resist the backlash against human rights created by the pursuit of a global security doctrine which has deeply divided the world. At the same time, we must address the failure of Governments and the international community to deliver on social and economic justice.

More than 1 billion people live in extreme poverty. The principle of the justiciability of economic, social and cultural rights is a central issue of the moment, both in Ireland and internationally, with particular emphasis being placed on the development of an optional protocol to the International Convention on Economic Social and Cultural Rights, the mechanism for individual complaint. In the struggle for economic social and cultural rights the achievement of real gender equality must be one of the main goals. Amnesty International is currently running a worldwide campaign to stop violence against women. One of the challenges we face is a belief that the battle for women's rights has already been won. We argue that millions of women live in poverty, are abused and suffer violence throughout the world and there is no real, effective challenge or remedy.

We need to focus not just on abuses of civil and political rights but also on abuses of economic, social and cultural rights such as poverty, the rights of children to education and the right to a decent standard of living consistent with human dignity. It is no longer possible to define abuses of human rights purely in terms of torture or the death penalty or even prisoners' rights, although these issues continue to be important to us.

Increasingly, the war on terror is used in countries such as China, Iraq, Colombia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the United States as a rationale for rolling back on commitments to standards such as the Geneva Conventions, the convention against torture and the entire principle of human rights protection.

Every year, 500,000 people are killed by conventional weapons which are, in effect, the real weapons of mass destruction. Economic globalisation is a reality. The challenge is to ensure that it is ethical and grounded in the human rights framework. Amnesty International's European Union office is engaged in discussions at EU level on globalisation and migration. Immigration restrictions across Europe have led to an explosion in trafficking of persons for the purposes of either sexual or labour exploitation and Ireland has been identified by the International Organisation for Migration as both a destination and transit country for the trafficking of both women and children. In discussing trafficking, we must be clear that we are not talking about moving people around to avoid immigration controls. I refer specifically to forced trafficking of people for the purposes of labour or sexual exploitation.

As a member of the United Nations human security network, Ireland is in a strong position to maintain and develop the idea that the goals of freedom from fear and want are mutually reinforcing. That is the context in which Amnesty International feels that the rights of the individual, the rights of prisoners, and the issue of the death penalty are situated.

Amnesty International recently produced statistics which show that almost 3,700 executions took place in 2004. However, 97% of those executions were carried out by four countries, namely, the United States, China, Vietnam and Cambodia. If we take China and the United States as two of the largest users of the death penalty, it is worth noting that while the guesstimated figure for China is 3,200, Amnesty International and other observers believe the real figure is probably much closer to 10,000. Very often in China, the death penalty is used after unfair trials where people do not have the right of appeal and where sometimes they are not even clearly informed of the crime with which they have been charged. The death penalty can be used for crimes as minor as fiddling income tax returns or forging VAT receipts.

In the United States last year, the 115th person was released from death row after the evidence was discredited. So, while last year 57 executions took place in the USA, it is important to note that 23 of those occurred in the state of Texas. Sometimes those convictions were based on forensic evidence which even the Texan legal authorities accept is discredited. In one case, investigators in the Houston police department discovered 280 boxes of evidence that had been incorrectly labelled. Even though there was a decision to impose death sentences based on this discredited evidence, the death penalty continues to be implemented.

In terms of where we focus our energy, China and the United States are two countries where Ireland has significant influence. The Taoiseach recently led the largest trade delegation in the history of the State to China. During the visit, he noted that the Chinese were dealing with human rights in their own way but he also referenced the fact that China was making progress on human rights. We urge the Government to use its increasing influence and positive relationship with the Chinese Government to emphasise the urgent call of the international community for human rights reform, in particular, concerning the death penalty.

Ireland has played a positive role in the campaign for global abolition of the death penalty. We congratulate the Government on the result of the referendum which finally removed all reference to the death penalty from the Constitution.

While I have emphasised the negative side in the United States, it is also worth noting two major steps forward. Ten years ago, I was part of a discussion in Ireland which recognised that there was almost nothing we could do about the death penalty because it was so entrenched in American public opinion and had such political support that it was irreversible. However, in the past year we have seen two major landmark decisions to remove the death penalty from the statute book for use on juveniles and people suffering from mental illness. Those were two black marks that had discredited the international reputation of the United States for many years.

While the global trend is towards abolition, now is not the time for complacency. We feel that Ireland, with its commitment to human rights in terms of its foreign policy and the work it has done to date — and particularly given its positive relations with the Chinese and United States governments — is in an ideal position to play the role of honest broker concerning the death penalty.

The issue of prisoners' rights brings us back to the war against terror and the clampdown on individuals' rights internationally. Amnesty International has identified a number of concerns that we would like to draw to the attention of the sub-committee. Under the umbrella of the war on terror, vague and broad definitions of terrorism have arisen, particularly relating to the EU framework decision and Ireland's implementation of it in the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act.

We are concerned about laws which permit incommunicado detention, laws permitting authorities to detain people without charge or trial, and using secret evidence and anonymous witnesses, as we have seen with detainees held at Belmarsh in the United Kingdom.

In China, we have seen where the war on terror has been used to clamp down on the Uighurs — a Moslem community in the south of China. Any moves to secure greater autonomy or to have their culture represented more clearly are treated as anti-state actions and terrorist offences.

In the UK, I have already mentioned the conditions endured by detainees in Belmarsh. In the United States we are familiar with the situation of prisoners in Guantanamo.

Ireland, however, is not clear of any concerns relating to the ill-treatment of prisoners. I would reference the findings of ill-treatment by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture in 2002, the lack of a statutory inspection and complaints system, and the long overdue prisons Bill.

I have already mentioned the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo but I would like to draw the sub-committee's attention to the sub-contracting of torture by the United States. Some cases have been highlighted of prisoners who are picked up in a third country and then taken by privately hired aeroplane to a country such as Syria for torture. Ireland has been put in the frame in that context. There is anecdotal evidence that a particular plane has been documented passing through Shannon. Amnesty International feels that this warrants further investigation. If the accusations are substantiated that this plane is passing through Shannon and taking prisoners for torture in a third country, Amnesty International feels this would put Ireland in breach of its obligations under the UN convention against torture. We feel this sub-committee might look further into that matter by trying to document the facts of the case.

As regards the broad treatment of prisoners, we feel there are a number of key non-negotiable principles, one of which is that of non-discrimination — that all prisoners should be treated equally before the law. In any case, prisoners should be free from torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. Extradition procedures that fail to provide guarantees must respect international fair trial procedures and must not lead to the extradition of suspects to countries where they would be subjected to unfair trials or the death penalty.

In the case of Irish prisoners overseas, it is the Irish State's duty to represent their interests, defend their rights if they cannot do so themselves, and make the necessary representations on their behalf should their rights to a fair trial or in respect of their treatment while imprisoned be infringed. These rights are enshrined in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. There have been numerous instances in the United States involving death penalty cases where the right of access to consular representation has been denied to non-national prisoners and has compromised their right to a fair trial.

Another concern we wish to draw to the attention of the sub-committee is the EU arrest warrant procedure, which has been implemented in Ireland by the European Arrest Warrant Act. At EU level, it has been mired in national difficulties because of the lack of trust in standards of criminal justice in other member states. In addition, the lack of common standards in the application of basic procedural safeguards in criminal proceedings is likely to lead to severe difficulties in the application of this process.

While Amnesty International does not object to the warrant in principle and recognises the need to combat transnational crimes, such as trafficking, Amnesty International emphasises the need to establish and maintain consistently high standards across the EU.

As regards solutions, Amnesty International has put a number of recommendations on the table. The rights-based approach is a new concept in human rights terms where, instead of preaching from the outside, Amnesty International would like key players in society — such as Government Departments, policy makers and members of the business community — to use the human rights framework as a way of creating policy and practice, and making decisions that will really deliver on human rights protection.

A key step in controlling the international arms trade is the international arms trade treaty. We also urge the Government to speedily ratify the domestic legislation for the establishment of the International Criminal Court. While Ireland has signed up to it, and nominated a judge, the Government has not brought forward the necessary domestic legislation, which is a priority.

We invited Mr. Loghran to come before the committee to see if he could help us in establishing some degree of priority in our work on the issues of the death penalty and prisoners' rights. They are broad areas which concern all committee members. In the past year or two we heard from various interested parties and felt we should establish some way of making progress. I note what Mr. Loghran has said with regard to possible ways of moving forward rather than solutions and we will reflect on his comments. Does Deputy Carey wish to pursue any particular issue?

Yes. However, my thoughts are disjointed. I understood that Ireland had fully signed up to the International Criminal Court but clearly it has not.

Mr. Loghran

The matter was on the schedule for the previous Dáil session but fell through when the House went into summer recess. It is currently scheduled for consideration but has not yet been dealt with.

I am sure someone will shortly raise the matter on the Order of Business. That is something we could pursue.

My experience regarding prisoners overseas is limited but I am currently dealing with a couple of cases, one in Ecuador. While our consular service is very good, and I cannot complain about its efforts, I find myself greatly dependent on NGOs — with lesser or greater success, depending on the timeframe — to advance matters such as, for example, the establishment of appeals. What further measures could we reach agreement on? Mr. Loghran referred to matters being agreed in a wider context, rather than being dealt with merely in national legislation. How can we promote measures to ensure prisoners overseas are adequately protected, since in some cases they are detained by regimes with human rights standards somewhat different to ours?

Mr. Loghran may not yet have had time to consider the discussion document on immigration and residency policy published last week by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. If he has read it, perhaps he will indicate if it contains issues which ought to be considered from the point of view of human rights and from the perspective of those to whom, from now on, we may refer as "new Irish people" in order to ensure they have the same rights as those of us born and reared in Ireland.

Regarding Irish prison standards, Justice Kinlen has commented adversely on the attitudes, particularly in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, towards making information available to, for example, the prisons inspectorate. Such attitudes cannot be countenanced. There has been a tradition in that Department and others of giving as much co-operation as necessary, but no more, to inspecting bodies, whether international or domestic. I am more concerned about the lack of co-operation with Irish-based groups. How can we address that in order to improve conditions for prisoners in Ireland? One of the headline stories this morning on that great show, "Morning Ireland", was that Wheatfield Prison won an award in the catering category for best kitchen in the country. Despite what some people may think, being in prison is not a luxury.

I am concerned about the anecdotal evidence, noted by Mr. Loghran, that Ireland may be being used as a transit point for prisoners being taken to places of torture. How reliable is that evidence and how can it be shown to stand up? Every right-thinking person would object to the situation suggested. What laws can we invoke at European or national level to prise open a file containing the relevant information?

Mr. Loghran

Regarding prisoners overseas, Deputy Carey mentioned Ecuador. One of our difficulties lies in whether a case falls into a political or a criminal category. Sometimes we are asked to intervene on behalf of people who might have been involved in drug smuggling. That creates an immediate difficulty for us because our mandate is to look at treatment of prisoners who are in prison for political reasons in a political context.

In some countries there can be a fine line between the political and the criminal.

Mr. Loghran

Yes. The key concern we would have in any case is access to a fair trial and to personal security. For example, we seek to ensure that prisoners are protected from cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment inside the prison system. A concern for us is the lack of real accountability in international human rights standards. If, for example, a country is found in breach of the convention against torture, there is no mechanism for sanction or for holding that country — be it China or Ireland — to account. A country can be criticised but how can a sanction be imposed? That is why Amnesty International has identified accountability and impunity as key issues.

We must find some mechanism, in terms of a human rights context and the framework agreement, for enforcing those standards and ensuring they are not mere rhetoric. That is why we are concerned in the context of the war on terror. In the United States, for example, there has been a debate about whether torture is acceptable and the view has been expressed that exceptional circumstances call for exceptional measures. We are seeing a rolling back in this area, so that rights we took for granted, such as fair trial and freedom from torture, are no longer given but are actively questioned.

In terms of existing human rights standards, it is important that we maintain the line and challenge governments if and when they abuse those rights. Some governments have attempted to undermine and weaken the provisions of the International Criminal Court because it provides one of the key mechanisms for enforcing accountability and challenging impunity. We cannot risk a gradual chipping away at the standards for human rights in the name of a temporary political agenda. That is part of the context of the cases to which Deputy Carey referred. We must keep the spotlight on them and pursue them through the international fora.

Deputy Carey also referred to the flights through Shannon. This issue has been aired in the media on a number of occasions. Amnesty has documented cases where a particular jet, which was named as being hired to the US Government, was used in transferring prisoners to countries such as Syria, where they have been tortured. The same jet has been tracked passing through Shannon. Did a crime happen? Was a prisoner en route to be tortured shipped through Shannon? There is an absence of a paper trail, so to speak, and a question mark over the matter. However, there is enough evidence to warrant serious concern and, at the very least, questions being asked.

Amnesty has expressed concerns about the international arms trade. One of the key mechanisms for controlling that trade, not just in guns and weapons but in personnel and other security-related equipment, is the European code of conduct. The question was whether this applies to the US Army passing through Shannon, whether it has been given an exemption by the Irish Government or whether there is any scrutiny of what passes through Shannon under the auspices of the US Government. The quantity involved is not known. We have never had a clear answer to that question and that would be a good point from which to start.

I apologise, I have forgotten the two other questions.

Has the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform co-operated with the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention?

Mr. Loghran

We would like the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention to be placed on a statutory footing and to be given full legal authority. We have raised with the Garda Síochána and the Prison Service the need for an independent, external auditing system. I mentioned earlier the issue of a rights-based approach. It is important that any area, particularly one as sensitive as justice, is human rights proofed in terms of its impact on particularly vulnerable communities, such as migrant workers, those at risk of being trafficked and so on, to ensure that their rights are not abused and that the law is not applied in a discriminatory manner.

Has Amnesty International had an opportunity to comment on the discussion document on residency and migration published last week by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform?

Mr. Loghran

That matter is currently under discussion. We have not yet finalised our comments on the document.

My final question relates to the agreements in existence between, for example, Ireland and the United Kingdom in terms of repatriation of prisoners. It has been my experience — perhaps I have not yet found a way of fast-tracking matters — that it is extremely difficult and traumatic for prisoners to progress a request for repatriation through the justice system, be it in Ireland or in the United Kingdom. Cases almost appear to be deliberately delayed through the seeking of more evidence and so on. I know of two offenders, both of whom agree they were correctly convicted of serious crimes but that should not preclude a decision on their entitlement to serve the remainder of their sentence in an Irish prison. It is difficult to obtain an adjudication from Government in such cases.

Mr. Loghran

Amnesty International has focused primarily on the issue of extradition in respect of the rights of prisoners not to be shipped to locations in which they might face unfair trials or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. It has not taken a position on the right of prisoners to be repatriated to serve their sentence in their own country. That is not an issue on which Amnesty has worked.

Given that this matter cannot be addressed by Amnesty International, perhaps the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas could offer some guidance to the committee on it.

I thank Mr. Loghran for his responses and for highlighting prisoners' issues. I also thank him for advising us on how the sub-committee could progress issues which are of concern to Amnesty International and others.

I have read the documentation on the death penalty. There has been much improvement internationally, with many countries either adopting the moratorium or agreeing a full ban on executions. However, the practice continues in other countries. It is an issue which has been discussed in every committee and appropriate forum in the European Union during the past ten or 20 years. I am sure it is also an issue of concern for Amnesty International.

We do not appear to be making the progress we had hoped in convincing countries which approve of execution to move towards a new policy of dispensation. Is there anything more the sub-committee can do through the Oireachtas or the European Union? It is disappointing that we have not been effective in getting across the message — with which almost everybody in this country, the European Union and a growing number of people in countries where execution is still practised agree — that execution does not work. How should the sub-committee go about putting that message across?

Mr. Loghran

It could be approached from the positive or negative side. The negative side is keeping the issue on the agenda at a minimal level, something which needs to happen given, as we have seen, that it can produce results over a long period. During the past ten years, the position in the United States has moved from total support for the death penalty to the annulment of its use in respect of people with mental illness or juveniles. This has resulted in hundreds of people being moved from death row.

If one asks a person in the United States whether he or she supports the death penalty for violent or brutal crime, it is interesting that he or she will inevitably reply in the affirmative. If, however, one asks whether he or she supports the death penalty if the alternative is life in prison with no possibility of release, support for the death penalty drops to approximately 50%. What matters is how one asks the questions.

Apart from banging the drum in a negative way, we must show positive alternatives such as that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime. We must also encourage people to look at the underlying causes of crime and violence. For example, 50% of homicides in the United States relate to women murdered in the home by violent spouses or partners using small arms that are freely available on the market. In considering ways to eliminate crime, we must ensure that we do not appear — as is often the case — soft on crime. We must reinforce the message that we abhor the use of the death penalty and maintain that position, while also supporting positive and alternative measures.

China recently made a commitment that all death sentences would be reviewed by its Supreme Court. In practice, however, responsibility in that regard has been delegated to lower courts. Holding the Chinese Government to its commitment should be on the agenda at all bilateral meetings between China and Ireland. It could also be raised by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste during their trade missions as an issue with which the Irish people have difficulty. We must maintain that position. It is a matter of narrowing the focus progressively.

Some 97% of accurately recorded worldwide executions are carried out by four Governments. That narrows the focus and illustrates where we can and should use our influence. The EU, in particular, has a strong role to play in that regard. In the context of the European constitution, for example, it should ensure that mechanisms to protect and to hold people to account in terms of their commitments are built in from the start. In addition, that approach should be echoed in external relations. It is important to ensure that this happens.

Does Mr. Loghran believe our EU partners are making the same effort? Are some of them more successful in their representations? Are they pursuing a different policy line and putting on more effective pressure, notwithstanding the fact that some of them have stronger economic and political ties with some of the countries where the death penalty remains in place? Is the level of campaign across the EU sufficiently strong?

Mr. Loghran

We believe it is patchy. There is a need for consistency and coherence at EU level. The Common Foreign and Security Policy should not be defined purely in terms of security issues but should also have regard to human security in the context of respect for and protection of human rights. Some countries have debated the reintroduction of the death penalty. We need to resist that desire very strongly and to maintain the line that Europe is abolitionist. We should also try to encourage those countries, some of which are members of the Council of Europe, that have imposed a moratorium on the use of the death penalty to move towards its abolition. That would be another positive area on which to focus.

Am I correct in stating, therefore, that Ireland, as a member state, should be in a position to argue for a stronger European Union campaign on the issue worldwide?

Mr. Loghran

Yes.

The current campaign is not as strong or as effective as Amnesty International would like. Would Ireland be at the top of the league in terms of effectiveness in the present campaign?

Mr. Loghran

It is hard to say. Obviously we do not do league tables, but we appreciate the role the Irish Government has played and it has been very outspoken in its support. There has not been an execution in Ireland since the late 1950s. We have been de facto abolitionists since then. We have played a very constructive role in the debate about the death penalty at the Human Rights Commission, for example, and in bilateral relations. It is important that when we see significant developments, as recently in the United States, we do not feel the battle is won. We need to keep up the pressure.

If you were to give one piece of advice to the Government and the Oireachtas through this committee, would it be to champion the issue through the European Union?

Mr. Loghran

Yes. It could also be useful to raise it in the context of Ireland's relations with the United States. President Bush, for example, is a former governor of Texas. Of 57 executions, 23 were in Texas. If we could get Texas off the list of states using the death penalty, that would be a huge step forward. It would also be useful to find ways of supporting the campaign within the United States for the abolition of the death penalty. They are a fragmented and vulnerable group. Resources have been denied to lawyers. The right to a fair trial is very often compromised in the United States. In many cases where the death penalty is overturned it is because evidence was withheld or the defendant did not have the resources to review evidence, to pay private investigators or to have forensic evidence properly analysed. There are statistics on the number of people who have been released from death row, but there are no statistics on the number of innocent people who have been executed.

It is very important that we keep pushing on those soft points. The signal for the past two years was that there was a victory coming in relation to juveniles. Now we need to look forward and look to the right to a fair trial. One of the frustrations for us is that there are so many people on death row in the United States that we can intervene only at a very late stage. In some states, for example, they have rule 21, which states that unless new evidence is submitted within 21 days it cannot be considered by the appeal committee. That committee can only look at the evidence originally presented. There are legal and technical issues which could be addressed to challenge the use of the death penalty and to support the work of anti-death penalty campaigners in the United States.

Mr. Loghran mentioned the European constitution and suggested significant added protections for human rights and related issues in the constitution.

Mr. Loghran

It is an opportunity. I am not sufficiently up to speed on the detail of the constitution, but one of the things we have been pushing for is a more holistic definition of human security and that the concepts of freedom from want and freedom from fear should be built into the thinking and the framework. The notion of human security should not be seen in terms of a militaristic and intelligence definition. It should be broadened to include other human rights standards, such as freedom from poverty, right to a decent standard of living, right to be protected from other needs.

I would have thought that those were enshrined in the early part of the constitution, which refers to the values and objectives of the Union, and also in the Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms.

Mr. Loghran

We would see it as a question of building in mechanisms for implementation and enforcing, since it should not be there just as a principle. The key issue we are looking at is the justiciability of economic, social and cultural rights, which should not be seen solely as a financial issue but also as a human rights issue. It is worth noting that this issue has been looked at by the new foundation set up by the former President, Mary Robinson, in terms of an ethical globalisation and the role of companies in protecting and promoting human rights, a new but increasingly important area.

The presentation and the responses to our queries will help us in our work. In so far as we can, we will try to progress these issues. We hugely admire the work being done on a daily basis throughout the world by Amnesty International. We in this committee would certainly consider ourselves friends of that organisation and we look forward to working with them again on those issues of concern to us.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.16 p.m. and adjourned at 3.20 p.m. until 12 noon on Thursday, 19 May 2005.

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