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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 7 Nov 2006

Iran and Related Matters: Ministerial Presentation.

I welcome the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and thank him for taking time from his full schedule to appear before the committee. The Minister is accompanied by Mr. Adrian McDaid, director of the disarmament section of the Department of Foreign Affairs. At previous meetings of this committee members expressed their wish for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to appear before the committee to discuss Ireland's position on a number of matters relating to Iran. These were the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, the US-India agreement and the Nuclear Suppliers Group. The Minister appeared before the committee during July to discuss exactly these issues but the meeting was somewhat overshadowed by the events in Lebanon and Israel, and the Minister agreed to come back to discuss the issues at a later date.

Since our July meeting there have been many important developments in the nuclear area. North Korea has tested a nuclear weapon and this is a matter of the gravest concern for the international community. The subject of Iran's nuclear programme continues to be a matter of concern to the international community and within the UN Security Council. This week there are reports that nuclear inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency are in Iran and are visiting the Natanz uranium enrichment facility. We look forward to seeing a report of their findings when Mohamed El Baradi, the IAEA's secretary general, presents his report of the visit to the members of the IAEA later this month.

I thank you, Chairman, and the committee for having me back to discuss this issue which, as you say, was deferred from a previous meeting. There have been some important and worrying developments in the meantime. While these disturbing developments have raised difficult challenges for the global nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation regime, the international community is working to address them. I propose to outline my views on the current position with regard to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iran and the United States-India deal on civil nuclear co-operation.

Support for the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, NPT, is the Government's highest priority in the field of disarmament and non-proliferation. Ireland has a proud history and track record in this area since Frank Aiken's initiative at the United Nations in the late 1950s directly led to the creation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty in 1968.

The NPT state parties meet every five years in a review conference to examine the implementation of the provisions of the treaty and consider new measures which might help strengthen these provisions. In each of the three years leading up to such conferences a meeting of a preparatory committee is held to exchange views on all aspects of the treaty's implementation and prepare the ground for decisions at the conference. Regrettably, the seventh review conference of the NPT, held in 2005, ended in failure. This disappointing outcome was compounded by the inability of the UN world summit four months later to agree any substantive reference to nuclear issues. The lack of progress over recent years is a matter of deep concern.

The 2005 review conference was not, however, the first review conference to end without agreement between state parties to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Despite many setbacks, the treaty has for more than 35 years stood as the basis for the promotion of non-proliferation and the pursuit of nuclear disarmament. It is essential, therefore, that our commitment to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty does not waver in the face of mounting challenges. If anything, failures in 2005 and other more recent developments have compelled us to work harder on this issue.

Last May, together with two of our partners in the new agenda coalition, Ireland co-sponsored a seminar in Geneva aimed at addressing the unfinished business from the last nuclear non-proliferation treaty review cycle. Consultations have already begun at the first committee of the UN General Assembly in New York and with like-minded countries on the best approach to the next review conference in 2010, preparations for which begin next year. We retain our firm conviction that in this crucial area, as in other areas, a strong rules-based multilateral system is the best approach in seeking to preserve and promote international peace and security.

Ireland attaches particular importance to the fulfilment of the nuclear disarmament obligations set out in Article VI of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, the only multilateral, legally binding commitment on nuclear disarmament. We regard disarmament and non-proliferation as mutually reinforcing processes requiring irreversible progress on both fronts. We have continued, with like-minded partners, to promote nuclear disarmament at the United Nations, the conference on disarmament in Geneva and other multilateral fora.

Ireland's efforts within the new agenda coalition on this front are well known. Our involvement in this cross-regional group dates back to the coalition's creation in 1998. As in previous years, at the first committee of the UN General Assembly in New York last month Ireland tabled a resolution entitled "Towards a nuclear-weapon-free world: accelerating the implementation of nuclear disarmament commitments". This resolution, emphasising the centrality of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation and calling upon all states to fulfil their disarmament commitments, was adopted by a large majority at the UN in New York on 27 October. Some 148 countries voted in favour, seven voted against and 12 abstained. Within the European Union, 18 states voted in favour of the resolution.

In September, the chair of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Commission, Dr. Hans Blix, was in Dublin to discuss the commission's excellent report, Weapons of Terror: Freeing the World of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Arms. As the joint committee will be aware, the report cited Ireland's constructive efforts to strengthen and improve implementation of the NPT. We are proud of our credentials in the international disarmament and non-proliferation field and remain committed to maintaining them.

As members are aware, on 9 October the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, DPRK, carried out an underground test of a nuclear explosive device. This followed the DPRK's announced withdrawal from the NPT in 2003 and its subsequent declaration of a nuclear weapon capability in 2005, all in spite of the patient efforts of its neighbours to work constructively to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis through the six-party talks process. The announcement was met with swift condemnation by members of the international community, including Ireland. On 9 October I strongly condemned this provocative act by the DPRK, which I characterised as a threat to regional security and as running counter to the objectives of the nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation regime.

On 14 October, in clear recognition of the gravity of the DPRK's decision, the United Nations Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1718 which obliged the international community to enforce specific sanctions, including an arms embargo, as well as a ban on any items which could contribute to the DPRK's nuclear, ballistic missile or weapons of mass destruction programmes. EU member states are considering a draft Common Position concerning restrictive measures in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1718.

The DPRK's action is an extremely worrying development, not only for the security and stability of the region but also for the NPT regime as a whole, given the previous violation of its commitments under the treaty. The international community has consistently urged the DPRK to abandon its confrontational policy, completely dismantle its nuclear weapons programme and comply fully with its obligations under the NPT.

The recent NAC resolution to which I have referred also contained a specific paragraph condemning the DPRK's recent test. This development has once more underlined the urgency of the entry into force of the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty. We continue to work for this objective.

In the light of recent and past failures to persuade the DPRK to change its intended course through diplomacy and negotiation, Security Council Resolution 1718 is a necessary measure. However, it is still possible to achieve a diplomatic solution to the current crisis through the six-party talks process. Recent reports that the DPRK has pledged to return to the talks shortly without preconditions are a welcome development. I particularly congratulate China for its efforts in this regard. I urge the DPRK to commit to a diplomatic solution and work sincerely towards the implementation of the joint statement of September 2005 and the peaceful and acceptable denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula it envisages.

The current lack of confidence in Iran's nuclear programme has been apparent since its previously undeclared programme came to the attention of the International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, in 2002. Since that time the international community has been engaged in diplomatic efforts to resolve those issues still considered to be outstanding. Enrichment and reprocessing activities are regarded as the most proliferation-sensitive elements of the nuclear fuel cycle.

Given the clandestine nature of its programme and remaining doubts over its past disclosures to the IAEA, Iran's pursuit of such a capability, in circumstances where it has no operating nuclear reactor, gives rise to concerns that it may be seeking to achieve a nuclear weapons capability. While the activities in this area are so far relatively modest, Iran, through research, development and testing, is acquiring the technical knowledge needed to develop a nuclear weapon. It is imperative, therefore, that it should commit to a suspension of these sensitive activities until such time as confidence in its intentions has been restored.

Last June Foreign Ministers of the EU Three and their counterparts in the United States, Russia and China, agreed to a package of incentives for Iran containing a framework for a wider agreement through which a peaceful and acceptable resolution to the issue of its nuclear programme could be found. For substantive negotiations to commence on the package, however, Iran would have to suspend its enrichment-related and reprocessing activities. In return, further action in the Security Council would also be suspended.

Following the presentation of the package to Iran, two unsuccessful meetings were held in early July between High Representative Javier Solana, on behalf of the EU Three, and lead Iranian negotiator Ali Larijani which were aimed at clarifying the contents of the package. In the light of this development and mindful of the confirmation in June from the IAEA that Iran was accelerating its enrichment programme, the United Nations Security Council adopted Resolution 1696 on 31 July. This resolution made suspension of Iran's enrichment activities mandatory and set a deadline of 31 August.

The Security Council also stated its intention to adopt a further resolution imposing additional measures, including sanctions, should Iran not be in compliance by this date. Iran delivered its response to the June package on 22 August but did not respect the Security Council's 31 August deadline on suspension. Determined, however, to exhaust all avenues before returning to the Security Council, High Representative Solana met Mr. Larijani several times in September to discuss Iran's response. Regrettably, an acceptable formula for commencing negotiations could not be agreed. The EU side has been obliged, reluctantly, to conclude that Iran is not at this stage seriously interested in responding to the generous offer made in June.

The Security Council is currently discussing a second resolution that would impose additional measures in the form of sanctions on Iran. It is uncertain what exact form these may take but it is understood that the measures are likely to be designed to constrain Iran's ability to develop its ballistic missile programme and to increase pressure to comply with the Security Council's suspension demand.

Meanwhile, media reports in Iran indicate that a second uranium enrichment cascade has been installed and has begun operating in the controversial pilot fuel enrichment plant in Natanz. While this does not significantly increase Iran's enrichment capabilities, it represents a further act of defiance by Iran.

We have always stressed our strong support for a peaceful resolution of this issue and for the efforts of the EU Three and Javier Solana. It is particularly disappointing that Iran has not taken advantage of the recent opportunities afforded it to enable negotiations to get under way. It is also highly regrettable that Iran continues to defy Security Council Resolution 1696. However, I underline the fact that current discussions of Security Council action should not be interpreted as abandonment of the diplomatic track or of the possibility of agreement on the June package of incentives. We remain hopeful for such a solution.

Moving to the US-India agreement, last year President Bush of the United States and Prime Minister Singh of India agreed to establish a new strategic partnership between their two countries. A key and controversial element of that partnership was a proposed agreement on civil nuclear co-operation. During a visit to India by President Bush on 2 March 2006, the two leaders announced that agreement had been reached.

Before the US can implement the agreement, however, it will have to amend its Atomic Energy Act of 1954 to exempt India from the requirements of the Act, which, as it currently stands, prohibits the transfer of nuclear material or technology to non-nuclear weapon states that do not have full scope safeguards in place. The US is also bound by the Nuclear Suppliers Group, NSG, guidelines for the transfer of nuclear goods or technology to other states. Ireland is one of 45 members of the NSG, which Brazil currently chairs.

In July, two Bills amending the 1954 Atomic Energy Act, which prohibits nuclear commerce with India, passed through the Committee Stages of the US House of Representatives and Senate. On 27 July the full US House of Representatives adopted the United States and India Nuclear Co-operation Promotion Act of 2006. A vote has still to be taken on the Senate Bill, although it is not clear at this stage whether this will be possible before the end of the current Congress, which is now in recess pending today's elections. In the event that the Senate Bill is not considered during what is termed the "lame duck" post-election session, both House and Senate Bills will have to be re-introduced in 2007. If both texts are then approved, they must then be consolidated into a single text representing Congress's final position on the matter.

If the 1954 Atomic Energy Act is successfully amended, the US will then have to obtain a consensus decision in the Nuclear Suppliers Group, NSG, to exempt India from its export guidelines. The NSG is a group of 45 participating countries, with agreed guidelines governing the export of items that are specially designed or prepared for nuclear use and for nuclear related dual-use goods.

Since the announcement of 2 March, the NSG has had three discussions on the proposed agreement. In the margins of the most recent NSG meeting in October, representatives of the Indian Government were in attendance to brief NSG participants. This was a welcome engagement by India and we took the opportunity to raise a number of our concerns directly with them.

The committee will be aware of those elements of the proposed agreement that give rise to concern. There is the fundamental issue of the NPT and whether nuclear co-operation with India could undermine its core principles and obligations. This is our most important consideration and we are carefully analysing the potential impact of the agreement on the NPT.

However, this is not a simple process and it is made more difficult by the fact that all the elements of the proposal are not yet in place. For instance, the extent of full civil nuclear co-operation under the US-India bilateral agreement remains uncertain, as does the nature of the safeguard agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency which is still to be negotiated. Currently, of the 45 members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, some very significant players, including France, Russia and the UK, have already voiced their support for this agreement. No country has yet come out in clear opposition.

The debate so far has been complex and wide-ranging with many difficult technical and legal issues, but there are also many political factors. From the point of view of non-proliferation, the case against the deal is obvious. Facilitating nuclear co-operation with a non-signatory of the non-proliferation treaty is, in principle, deeply disturbing. Moreover, even on its own terms, the deal has obvious deficiencies. The failure of the US to persuade India to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, or declare a moratorium on the production of fissile material for military purposes, is disappointing. Ireland, with a number of other countries, has stressed these points.

However, at the same time, there are many NSG members, including some who traditionally take a strong line on nuclear non-proliferation, including some of our partners in the New Agenda Coalition who appear, fully or in part, to be persuaded by wider political, economic and strategic considerations, including the importance they attach to bilateral relations with India and the US. This trend is quite strong and there is no doubt that India increasingly sees attitudes to the agreement as a litmus test of countries' relations with it.

Others point to India's enormous future energy needs, arguing that a stronger nuclear programme is vital, not least in the context of climate change. We do not agree with this from a national viewpoint but it is a legitimate perspective. Others make the point that India, while a non-signatory of the NPT, has never been accused or suspected of nuclear proliferation outside its borders. They say that as there is little or no practical prospect that it will ever join the NPT the damage to the treaty is more notional than real.

It is worth noting that the director general of the IAEA, Mohamed El Baradei, has already declared his support for the agreement and I am aware that committee members have received a copy of Dr. El Baradei's views. As an authoritative figure on the workings of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, Dr. El Baradei makes some valid points with regard to the safety implications for the Indian civil nuclear programme as well as India's strong credentials on international peace and security.

Another prominent figure to comment on the agreement, without declaring a position, is Hans Blix. In his report Dr. Blix finds that the agreement's compatibility with the NPT is a matter of judgment and expresses the opinion that concerns raised about the agreement would disappear if both parties demonstrated support for non-proliferation and disarmament. While there are many experts on disarmament and non-proliferation who would take a decisively negative view, the fact that Dr. El Baradei and Dr. Blix have a different approach underscores the complexity of the question and the room for alternative points of view.

We continue to ask questions and seek clarifications to improve our understanding. Last month I received the Prime Minister of India's special envoy on civil nuclear co-operation, Mr. Shyam Saran and I know he also met the committee. He clearly set out the Indian Government's argument that the deal would, in practice, strengthen the non-proliferation regime. He also emphasised India's significant energy needs and the benefits the deal could bring to its economy and people.

While the disarmament and non-proliferation aspect of the agreement is our primary focus, this is an important consideration which Ireland recognises, as I conveyed to Mr Saran. However, I also conveyed to him Ireland's deep-rooted commitment to the NPT and reiterated our disappointment that India remained outside it, as well as our concerns for the potential impact on the NPT regime. More detailed technical discussions were held at official level, which were very useful for our continuing analysis.

At this stage, it seems that the earliest point at which the NSG might be called upon to make a decision is its meeting next April, but it could be even later. Ultimately, our final view will depend on our assessment of the potential impact of the deal on the global non-proliferation regime, and also on the approach taken by normally like-minded countries and the overall balance of views within the NSG. I now look forward to the committee's questions and comments.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister for his attendance and for his detailed contribution to the committee, much of which I fully support. I have made a point a number of times at Question Time and within this committee that the failure to reach agreement on the review of the NPT in New York last year has created a situation where, effectively, the influence of the non-proliferation treaty is being eroded on a daily basis. Until such time as there is an agreement on a review of the NPT, we are on a slippery slope with regard to the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

It will inevitably arise that with the proliferation of nuclear weapons, there will come a time when nuclear weapons or the ability to create a nuclear weapon will fall into the hands of terrorists or rogue states. I have stated this before. We have five particular nuclear powers. They are India and Pakistan — whether it is accepted — Israel, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and Iran, which is the focus of this meeting.

I have put the following point to the Minister before. Has it crossed the Minister's mind that the people negotiating on behalf of the European Union, including the UK, Germany and France, are the wrong people to be negotiating with Iran? Two of those countries are nuclear powers. What we have are double standards and hypocrisy.

The Minister quite rightly paid tribute to Frank Aiken and the contribution he made to the formulation of the original NPT. Surely Ireland must take this issue by the scruff of the neck, and as an architect of the NPT, play a lead role in Europe's approach to Iran, as well as the question of sickening double standards evident in the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

For example, we can contrast the attitude towards Iran and the attitude to the proposed agreement between the US and India. India is not a signatory to the NPT, yet it is entering into a nuclear deal with the United States, subject to Congress approval. It is almost blackmail that a country's attitude to this deal is a litmus test of relations with that country. It is an appalling statement to have in this contribution. Effectively it is saying our attitude should be coloured by the attitude India will eventually take.

If a number of countries have come out in support of the deal between the United States and India, should somebody indicate that is wrong? I would suggest Ireland should play this role. This deal is a further erosion of the powers binding the signatories to the NPT, and those who are not signatories to it. This matter should be subject to an early decision.

As members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group we should be taking a lead role in stating that any attempts at proliferation are wrong and must be stopped.

I agree with most of what the Minister said. However, would it be possible for the Government to take a lead role in regard to the ongoing erosion of the NPT and, within the Nuclear Suppliers Group, at further attempts at proliferation? I would like the Minister's reaction to some of the points I raised. I recognise the risk in regard to the development of the Iranian nuclear programme but it is sickening to see the double standards and the blind eye being turned to Israel and to the ongoing development of a deal between the US and India.

I sincerely thank the Minister for his presentation which was comprehensive, detailed and set out all the issues and the complications which arise from the evolving situation on the international stage vis-à-vis nuclear weapons.

I differ from the last speaker in that Ireland has been taking a lead role, and not only in the original design of the NPT. Ireland's membership of the new agenda coalition and the Geneva conference are badges of its firm commitment to the NPT. I would go further and say that nuclear non-proliferation is at the core of Irish foreign policy and, as a result, this issue deserves the most serious consideration. In fairness to the Minister, he outlined all these complex issues in an honest and comprehensive way.

I wish to deal with the issue of the proposed US-India deal. As the Minister stated, we had the opportunity to have a comprehensive meeting with the special envoy on civil nuclear co-operation from India, Mr. Saran, which lasted a considerable length of time. Mr. Saran set out comprehensively the arguments why the proposed deal is not against the NPT both from his perspective and that of India. He pointed out the benefits of that agreement.

Except for what has happened in India on the nuclear side, it is a great country and a great democracy. It felt genuinely aggrieved at the time of the original NPT that it was kept outside it. In hindsight, it might have been better for the world if India had somehow been included in that club. However, that was not to be and is not how the history of it has been written.

As Deputy Allen said, India now finds itself in a group of countries, including Israel and Pakistan, which are outside the NPT and which are seeking to legitimise their nuclear positions. The great moment of truth for the NPT is whether this deal goes ahead. If it goes ahead and if it is sanctioned by the nuclear suppliers group, then the finger has come out of the dyke and it will be open season for other countries to legitimately claim they too should have the right to develop nuclear weapons, especially those countries which are not yet members of the NPT. There might be nothing to stop current members of the NPT from leaving it and from stating that Iran is a member of the NPT and yet we have come down on it like a tonne of bricks while countries outside the NPT, which have developed nuclear weapons, somehow seem to get away with it. It seems the international community has become powerless to police one of the most important regimes in the world. I accept this puts it in a difficult position. I have great respect for Dr. El Baradei and Dr. Blix and agree with the Minister that their point of view must be listened to.

I also agree with Deputy Allen that India considers this issue to be a litmus test of friendship. Ireland's friendship with India goes back a long way and when Mr. Saran met the joint committee, the Chair outlined this point very carefully. I refer to De Valera's visit, the similarities in the two countries' constitutions, adherence to democracy and so on. India should be informed that Ireland may have a legitimate and genuine disagreement with it in this regard and that the issue should not be permitted to be a litmus test. While Ireland is and wishes to be a friend of India, it has a genuine fear in this regard.

Unless I am mistaken, only a few days ago Dr. El Baradei stated that several other countries are now contemplating the development of nuclear weapons, some of which are democracies and some of which are in the Middle East. Moreover, as one major nation has got away with this, some of the larger South American countries may also ask themselves why they should not do so. The Minister's comments regarding the fundamental issue of the NPT and whether nuclear co-operation with India could undermine its core principles and obligations were absolutely correct. An important part of his speech noted that this goes to the core of the entire NPT treaty.

This leads me to the subject of Iran. As the Minister is aware, several months ago the joint committee met the Iranian chargé d'affaires. Members made it clear to him that the joint committee objected to Iran's development of nuclear weapons. This is beyond question and the joint committee has decided to visit Iran simply to underline the point to the Iranians, face to face. However, neither members nor the wider Muslim, Arab or Middle Eastern world understand why a country that has allowed inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency, which states that it is developing civil nuclear power, is to be trodden upon when other countries outside the regime appear to be able to get away with it.

This leads to my final subject, namely, the Minister's point that technical discussions are under way, some of which, if successful, could alter the equation. I suggest that one of the preconditions for Ireland's possible support in this regard at the Nuclear Suppliers Group should be the issue of inspection.

Supporting the United States.

Yes. At the joint committee's meeting with Mr. Saran, I asked him whether India would be prepared to allow for inspections, under the EU-India deal, by the IAEA. I was disappointed to hear that the clear answer was "No". This is a step too far. Indian willingness to agree to allowing inspection of all its military nuclear facilities by the IAEA, while remaining outside the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, would put a different complexion on the matter. However, the Minister will ask himself what India has to fear. If India is a legitimate nuclear power that wants nuclear power largely for civilian purposes, as well as for ancillary military purposes, why is it afraid to allow in the IAEA inspectors?

I underline an important point raised by the Minister, namely, why does India refuse to ratify the comprehensive test ban treaty? Mr. Saran told the joint committee that a moratorium is in place and there has not been a policy decision to change this position. However, this is not the same as signing and ratifying the test ban treaty and India should do so. Moreover, it should also declare a moratorium on the production of fissile material for military purposes.

This has been a good discussion and the Minister has been extremely frank. While he faces a difficult position, he will make the best decision for the sake of Ireland and the international community. I wish to convey the message that Ireland intends to have excellent, friendly and deep relations with India over time but, despite our status as a very small country, we must be allowed to have a significant and principled policy difference about an issue of great concern to the world.

I thank Deputy Mulcahy. In respect of the numbers of inspections allowed, 14 non-military inspections were permitted, while eight military inspections were not permitted.

It is always very welcome when either the Minister or Minister of State appears before this committee because it lends prestige to the work of the committee and is always a very useful exchange of views. I note that the items on the agenda are Iran and related matters. The Minister concentrated almost exclusively on nuclear matters. This is a very significant point. Deputy Mulcahy, with whom I have not always agreed, has focused on this area. The fact that the Minister is present today is partly a response to Deputy Mulcahy's work.

However, I was slightly surprised that there was no mention of Pakistan because I would have thought this a far more problematic area. Pakistan is ruled by a military dictatorship which is a fully nuclear regime with military potential. This regime has been notoriously leaky and wrought considerable damage in terms of the unauthorised dispersal of nuclear materials around the world, about which I am very concerned.

In respect of India, I note the coy phrase that as there is little or no practical prospect that India will ever join the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, the damage to the treaty is more notional than real. However, the fact that India is not party to the treaty, as Deputy Mulcahy noted, is not very helpful either. India's position is not of any great assistance in this area.

I hope that there is a future in the prospect of nuclear fusion technology. A massive investment of €24 billion in an accelerator is on the horizon with the intention of seeing whether nuclear fusion can be realised as a practical objective. This would make the nuclear industry much safer and would also create a clear divide between the development of nuclear technology for peaceful purposes and its development for military purposes. I hope that nuclear fusion, which has been perceived as a scientific fantasy for a long time, may now, as a result of this massive investment, come about.

I have two questions for the Minister. The first question is very much in concert with comments made by the two previous speakers. The Iranian Government has produced some obnoxious statements and its attitude towards the Holocaust is ghastly. It has made itself a pariah. However, a substantial number of comments made by the Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, are perfectly sensible. As I understand it, the Iranian position is that it has infringed no legally binding commitments under international treaties. Is this the case? Have the Iranians done anything wrong so far?

We are very suspicious and cautious but we must tread carefully because it might well be that what is involved is simply an attempt to provide electricity-generating capacity for the Iranian people. This is the clear and unambiguous statement and commitment of the Iranian Government. It may not be telling the truth but this is what it has said.

The situation in Iraq, in which we were walked into an appalling and catastrophic war by the ignorance, stupidity, immorality and criminality of the Anglo-American alliance, should make us very cautious before we assert that there are weapons of mass destruction all over the shop. These weapons might be there but we certainly need to know for sure.

I am not concerned exclusively with the hypothetical nuclear future. I am also concerned about the human rights of people. I draw the Minister's attention to two cases I raised in Nairobi with the Iranian delegation at the assembly of the IPU. One is the case of a 16 year old mentally handicapped girl who was raped and subsequently hanged for crimes against chastity. That concerns me even more because that indicates an attitude such as the hypocrisy in America where the Reverend Haggard prates against gay marriage while entertaining himself with amphetamines and a male tart. There is a similar situation in Iran where people are using sexual prejudice to terrorise communities.

A second case I would like the Minister to raise directly with the Iranian ambassador, as I have done in a meeting with this committee, is that of two youths, aged 16 and 17, who were accused of having a sexual relationship by the morality police and who were beaten to a pulp in a police station. They were held for 14 months and then taken out and hanged in a public square from a crane mounted on a lorry. A decent, married couple from Cork sent me the photographs available on the Internet. If the Minister looked at them, it would add colour to his meetings with the Iranian ambassador. I am sure he, as a decent and sensitive man, would find it utterly morally repulsive.

We need not just concentrate on the nuclear issue; if we do, I would be interested in the views on Pakistan. We are also entitled, because the agenda for today states we are dealing with Iran and related matters, to be concerned about the use of such blackguardly moral terrorism and repression against defenceless young people in Iran simply for the purposes of terrorising the local population who are forced to witness this. On both occasions many were in tears at what was being done. We must side with those victims and the general population of Iran in whose name these things are being done but who are as horrified as we are as decent human beings.

I thank the Minister for attending today. I have a particular interest in the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. I was fortunate enough to speak in the UN about it and I made a proposal that day. Before I get on to that, I reiterate Deputy Allen's reference to Israel as a nuclear power in the most militarily and politically sensitive area of the world that is unequivocally, unquestioningly and uncritically backed by the US. For the US to say Iran should not do this awful thing because we do not trust the Iranians with nuclear missiles is to act with an uneven hand. The only chance we have for world peace and the survival of the human race is the non-proliferation treaty.

I have a proposal for the Minister that I made before the UN and in this committee, namely, to set aside at least two hours annually in the Oireachtas for Members to debate the importance of the NPT and associate it with a day when second level schools could be made aware of its importance. Issues such as Israel versus Iran can then be discussed. The only way to achieve peace is not through meetings here but at parliamentary level, thereby raising people's consciousness. This is far too important to be left to the whims of one or two major world leaders. As a newly-elected politician of short duration, it seems to me to be what happens. The Minister or the Government should hold an EU parliamentary debate on this issue. I would like to see a day, or a half day, on which the parliaments of the world discussed the success or failure of the NPT and made it relevant to Joe Soap in Wexford.

Democracies, which George Bush and Tony Blair and the rest of us praise so often, only work if the people are conscious of what governments do in their name and on their behalf. Approximately 600,000 people have been killed in Iraq but not in my name, although I am an elected politician.

There is hypocrisy attached to the NPT. Ireland has played a unique role, through Frank Aiken and politicians of other parties, in trying to promote the concepts of non-proliferation of nuclear weapons and world peace. The only way to do this is to set aside a day within the EU, if it is not possible to achieve it in every parliament in the world, and at the UN during which the NPT is made relevant to the ordinary voter in our lauded democracies.

I apologise on behalf of my colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who could not be here and who has read further into this brief than I have done. I thank the Minister for the useful and instructive paper he delivered today.

I was on a TV programme last night during which nuclear energy was raised as a side issue. The experts there advised us that we are facing into a new nuclear age for energy to cope with greenhouse gases. That will pose its own dangers for proliferation of which we need to be mindful.

The fear of nuclear weapons felt by people, if not by governments, is very real. The people most likely to use them are those who have them. The fewer people who have them the less chance there is of their being used. I support the Minister and this and previous Governments in promoting the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The chances of some terrorists getting their hands on a nuclear bomb are small and the risk of it happening might be overstated. No terrorist has succeeded in such an attempt. Rogue countries are more likely to present a danger than terrorists.

I am impressed by the level of debate and knowledge among the committee members in dealing with this issue. I thought they would all use diplomatic language, as they did until my good friend, Senator Norris spoke.

The US-India agreement is a classic example of the United States paying off somebody who did it a favour, in this instance, helping in the invasion of Afghanistan. I hope that after today there will be a new regime in the United States that might reject the texts before its Government. There is nothing new in the hypocrisy of treating one country differently from another. Countries do not deal with those they perceive as potential enemies in the same way as they deal with their allies. Hence the differing attitudes of the United States to Iran and Israel and its hypocrisy in making a big issue when one acquires nuclear weapons while trying to ensure the other does not acquire them. I hope no more countries will attempt to acquire them.

We are used to double standards. In the Middle East, for years the US built up and sustained a tyrant with the help of many European states. Now there is dancing in the streets because a kangaroo court set up by the same people is about to hang this tyrant. While I am against capital punishment, Saddam Hussein should be punished for what he did. He was a monster but was created by the people who are now pursuing him for political objectives. We are used to double standards coming from that area.

The committee should express its support for the Minister and the Government's constant support for the non-proliferation treaty. Such an expression would be positive and helpful to the Minister in what is a difficult situation regarding India and America.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and his official Mr. Adrian McDaid. It is worthwhile to recognise the contribution of Frank Aiken to the drafting of the first non-proliferation treaty. However, if the current Minister went for the full duration of the UN session, the people of Louth would not give him much of an allowance. Times have changed but the Minister has spent his time well in the UN and has made a great contribution to this issue. I agree with Deputy Allen that Ireland should be allowed to play a larger role in this treaty because of our role in its creation and because this is a non-nuclear state. It is the Government's policy that we are non-nuclear in power generation and weapons

I visited the Islamic Republic of Iran when I was a Minister of State. We built up a good relationship with its Administration. I concur with Senator Norris who brought this issue up at the Interparliamentary Union in Nairobi. One can be on good terms with a government but one can condemn its actions and persuade it to change its obnoxious policies.

Iran has stated its nuclear programme is for energy production. There is an irony, however, in that Israel, a neighbour of Iran, has nuclear bombs. In October in Geneva I asked the former leader of the Mossad how many bombs Israel has. He could neither confirm nor deny it. I also made the case for Mr. Mordechai Vanunu who is under house arrest in Jerusalem. If Israel has nuclear weapons why will it not release this whistleblower? It destabilises a region when one country has very effective nuclear weapons, supplied by the US. The dogs on the streets of Teheran know the number of nuclear weapons Israel has. Little effort is made by the US to curb Israel's position in this regard.

Ireland is opposed to capital punishment. We do not vary our position on this because we believe it is wrong for any state to execute people. We condemn Saddam Hussein's activities against the Kurds and during the war with Iran. However, if we start hanging people, we will hang many more than just Saddam Hussein.

Mr. Rumsfeld comes to mind.

I will not go into the details. I do not know if the Minister is prepared to make any comment in this regard. The British Prime Minister is against capital punishment but apparently he is making an exception in the case of Saddam Hussein. I am not giving a view one way or the other on this issue other than to say that the timing of this verdict was coincidental. Some three days before Senate and Congress elections in the United States this verdict was reached without the process of a proper trial. This was the work of a kangaroo court with little defence offered. Most of the activities in which Saddam Hussein engaged were indefensible. However, it is strange that all the weapons he had at his disposal were supplied by the United States of America and other allies. They were delighted to have him in office when he was fighting the Iranians and they supplied him with weapons but turned a blind eye when he was responsible for the use of mustard gas on the Kurds——

Hear, hear.

——and now he is no longer a friend but an enemy. I hope he gets an opportunity to write his book before he goes because he could expose the hypocrisy that occurred during that period.

I commend the detail of the Minister's document. We have to agree with the United Nations and the Minister's work in regard to the Koreans who have nuclear weapons and are prepared to explode them.

The situation in Pakistan is unstable and I understand there was an attempted coup to oust the Prime Minister. Given Pakistan's close geographical position to the Indian nation, it is not surprising that both countries are trying to retain nuclear weapons for their own so-called defence.

I commend the Minister on his work. He has been courageous in the stand he has taken on many issues. In regard to this issue, he should continue to speak out loudly on behalf of the Republic of Ireland

The Minister has received considerable encouragement to continue the work he is doing and to proceed as vigorously as he can in regard to the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons.

Deputy Allen mentioned he was concerned about the EU representation in the negotiations and about it not being broad. Germany, France and Britain are negotiating on behalf of the EU and France and Britain are both nuclear powers. Is there a possibility that such representation can be broadened?

The New Agenda Coalition, in which Ireland is very much involved, was launched by the Foreign Ministers of Ireland, Brazil, Egypt, Mexico, New Zealand, South Africa and Sweden. It is an influential and independently minded group. I am aware the Minister has been working through that coalition and I encourage him to bring it to the fore as much as possible. I acknowledge he has been making efforts in that respect. He might answer in general terms the questions that were raised.

I thank the members for their comments and complimentary remarks. I very much welcome Deputy Stagg's suggestion that this Oireachtas joint committee should signal support for Ireland's stance and continued stance on the non-proliferation treaty. There is no doubt that the treaty is under strain. However, we must also accept that approximately 188 countries have signed up to the NPT. All the dark suggestions in the 1960s that we would end up with 20 nuclear states from a military point of view have not come to fruition yet. Deputy Stagg said he does not believe that nuclear weapons will not get into the hands of individual terrorists, but I am not altogether sure about that, having regard to what happened recently in the case of the leaking of information and nuclear know-how in the case of Dr. Kahn in Pakistan. In regard to the NPT, it is necessary for us not only to deal in a universal way with those countries who are trying to have it every which way because of heightened security issues but to have an agreement among nations on the supply of information across frontiers to make sure that it does not fall into the wrong hands. However, we face a continuing challenge in that respect, namely, the fact that only three member states, India, Pakistan and Israel, have not signed the treaty, which is a source of regret. That is something I emphasised to both my Israeli and Indian counterparts recently. The engagement with Pakistan has not taken place in recent times although we would raise it at international fora. It is important to emphasise that the NPT is not a failure. I accept that the most recent review was disappointing in that the nation states could not agree on a move forward in that respect but one must put it in the political context prevailing at that time, of which the Iranian situation was part.

I agree with Deputy Allen's reference to double standards. I have said publicly in the review conference in the General Assembly of the UN that countries are lecturing other countries about non-proliferation when they are not moving down the road of disarmament. I am being asked to make a relatively quick decision in regard to the US-India deal. We will not shirk from making a decision against it if we feel it is in contravention of the NPT and would damage it. Neither, however, will we make a decision until such time as we have the full facts. My officials meet their peers on a constant basis at the New Agenda Coalition at all the various preparation meetings for a review conference and make all their points.

A number of countries such as Brazil and South America have made positive soundings on the US-India deal and they are members of the New Agenda Coalition of which we are part. When one hears Dr. Hans Blix and Dr. El Baradei coming out in favour of it, it raises the question as to whether we are being too principled in our stance if we are against it.

Did Dr. Hans Blix speak in favour of it?

No he did not, but he gave a view on it. Dr. El Baradei did speak in favour of it. There are nuances in this regard of which we must be conscious. Political considerations enter into it. One can see that in some of the countries that have come out in favour of the US-India deal. We must grapple with all these issues.

To return to the question of double standards, we have always made clear that it is a two-legged process. There are two elements to this, not just non-proliferation but also disarmament. A question was asked about the position of the EU Three which operates on behalf of the EU. At every meeting of the EU, the issue of the EU Three's discussions with Iran is debated publicly with other countries, including Ireland, which support the EU Three's move. It is debated at official level and there is full transparency in regard to it. The fact that some of those countries have nuclear capability themselves does not invalidate the message being given on Iran.

The question was asked if Iran has broken agreements. It has had 20 years of non-compliance with the safeguards of the International Atomic Energy Agency. In the context of what has been happening in recent times, when the IAEA inspectors went to Iran a lack of transparency was evident and there was an effort to cover up activities which were not allowed under the NPT.

This is very much a parallel with the situation in Iraq where the same claims were made.

It will always be suggested major powers, including the United States, will move to heighten matters. It goes back to the position a country such as Ireland can adopt as a neutral non-nuclear state which does not have a hidden agenda. If, after discussing the issue with our peers and assessing the full implications, we believe the US-India agreement is the wrong one, we will not be slow in stating this. The fact that we are friends with these two nations gives us even more authority. They can see that this is an independent, non-nuclear, neutral state with no axe to grind. Iran has a history of non-compliance on this matter.

It was mentioned that India was kept out of the NPT club. However, it was its own decision to stay out. We fundamentally disagree with this, as I stated to Mr. Saran when he was here, but he justified it on the basis that, with Ireland, India was one of the NPT's prime promoters at the start. However, he maintained that the conditions under which India would have entered were not to its liking and that it was decided to move out unilaterally. Another member raised the issue of a moratorium but we would much rather see India sign the treaty, as a moratorium can be done away with by a press release. Signing the treaty would make it far more difficult to leave, as it would mean breaking an international agreement.

I was asked specifically about a number of issues but not Pakistan. I raised this matter with the Indian representative on his recent visit here. An attempt was made by the United States and Pakistan to create a similar agreement a number of years ago. However, the United States was suspicious of the possibility of a leak from Pakistan.

I note that committee members propose to visit Iran. That is a matter for the committee but I strongly suggest they meet a broad range of opinion. I also suggest the committee raise the issues it has forcefully raised, including the increased use of the death penalty, particularly in the case of minors, freedom of speech, the persecution of human rights defenders and the treatment of ethnic and religious communities.

The European Union has endeavoured to deal with this matter in an holistic manner, not one centred on whether Iran can seek to have nuclear military capability. I bumped into Deputy Allen at the United Nations two years ago after I had come from a meeting with the Iranian representative at which I had told him forcefully that while Ireland was a non-nuclear state, it acknowledged that under the NPT his country was entitled to have civilian capability. A Member of the Iranian Parliament also attended the meeting to strengthen their argument. Iran wanted to install 20 nuclear facilities to beef up its electricity capability for a growing nation. On the face of it, it is entitled to do so. However, following an international inspection, the IAEA told us Iran was on a different line. To be fair, it is not a US agenda or an agenda connected to Iraq. When one finds countries such as Russia and China are also somewhat uneasy in this regard, one can take it this is a strong message from the world.

There is no doubt we are disappointed with regard to the Israeli issue. We stated time and again that Israel must participate in the NPT. Obviously Israel will adopt a very tough and clear attitude as regards what it sees as its entitlement to protect its citizens but we disagree with the way in which Israel protects its citizens.

Deputy Tony Dempsey referred to the possibility of having Dáil time put aside to debate the matter. I have no problem with such a proposal, subject to the agreement of the Whips. I agree with the Deputy in regard to having debate in schools in this respect. I am questioned regularly in the Dáil on the nuclear issue. I agree with Deputy Stagg's suggestion that the committee would pass a motion. It would give an added boost and would also indicate before the committee visits Iran that it is making its message clear.

We co-ordinate the New Agenda Coalition and we will co-ordinate the drive by that coalition with regard to the first preparatory meeting of the NPT review next year.

I thank the Minister for attending and thank Mr. McDaid for accompanying the Minister.

I indicated that I would like to ask some questions. There is normally a session with the Minister or one of his Ministers of State before the General Affairs and External Relations Council meeting, the next of which will take place on 13 and 14 November. One of the omissions that jumps out when one reads the agenda for that meeting is that there is no reference to Sudan or Darfur.

I am not sure I will attend that meeting. I will be flying back from New York on the Sunday. If I was at the meeting, I would raise the issue of Darfur.

I presume the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, will attend.

A Minister of State will attend if I do not. It would be my intention to raise the issue of Darfur.

We should adopt a strong position with regard to the expulsion of the UN envoy, namely, that he be readmitted or an early replacement be made.

Is it in order to endorse the Minister's stand with regard to the non-proliferation treaty and the way he is negotiating on it on behalf of the Government?

There is unanimous agreement among the committee in that regard.

While I do not wish to make a party political point, we should take a more proactive role with regard to the NPT both at European level and at——

We are taking as active a role as is possible in the circumstances, given that we are dealing with 192 or 193 countries, all of which have completely different——

I know the practical difficulties but——

Ireland, with Sweden, will be one of the most vocal countries.

We will continue to be so. I thank the Minister and Mr. McDaid for attending.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 21 November 2006.
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