JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) debate -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 2009

Situation in Colombia: Discussion.

Chairman

I remind members and all those present, including those in the Visitors Gallery, to ensure their mobile telephones and Blackberries are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference, even on silent mode, with the recording equipment in the committee room.

I welcome Ms Yessika Hoyos, Colombian Lawyers Collective, Mr. David Joyce, Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Ms Sophie Haspeslagh, ABColombia, and Mr. Liam Craig Best, interpreter. In the Visitors Gallery I welcome Catriona Rice, Front Line, Hilary Daly, Trócaire, Alexia Haywood and Sorley McCaughey, Christian Aid, Michael Dowling and Stellan Hermansson, ICTU, and Jose Antonio Gutierrez, Latin American Solidarity Centre.

You are all welcome to discuss the issue of European trade negotiations with Colombia from a human rights perspective. As witnesses will be aware this is a sub-committee of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. You will appreciate, following last week's budget, there are many other activities taking place elsewhere in the House, such as Committee Stage of the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill and the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Bill in both Houses. Members who are involved with other business will be observing either through monitors or the proceedings of the Official Report, which will be circulated at a later stage.

In October I met some people at the Irish launch of the international campaign for the right to defend human rights in Colombia. I was pleased to attend that meeting. Today's meeting is a follow-up to that event and provides an opportunity for a wider debate on the issue of what Ireland and the EU can do to protect Colombian human rights defenders. I am pleased that Ms Yessika Hoyos of the Colombian Lawyers Collective, a CAJAR and recipient of the George Meany-Lane Kirkland Human Rights award will address the committee today. I understand that her father, who was a trade unionist, was killed in 2001.

Before commencing, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege in respect of utterances made at the committee, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Accordingly, caution should be exercised particularly when making references of a personal nature. I invite the witnesses to make their presentations, following which I will take questions.

Ms Yessika Hoyos

Good afternoon. I am extremely grateful to be able to speak to the committee. I have come from Colombia in search of human solidarity, with much hope that the committee will comprehend the difficult situation my country is going through.

We are a society submerged in political and social violence, the violence of immense inequality. The worst violence, the most extreme, systematic and most macabre violence, however, is perpetrated by the Colombian state against civil society.

This is what happened in the case of my father, Jorge Dario Hoyos Franco, on 3 March 2001, one of the 2,704 trade unionists assassinated in Colombia, by official state bullets.

Just as in 98% of murders of trade unionists and the majority of human rights violations in Colombia, impunity appeared from the very same night as this horrendous murder. Impunity that persists, although they have tried to show otherwise by pointing out that a member of the national police has been convicted of the crime.

Chairman

I apologise for the interruption. There is a lot of business under way because of the budget. There is a vote now taking place in the Seanad so Senator Daly and I must leave. I ask one of my colleagues to take the Chair so the meeting can continue.

Deputy Frank Fahey

We have the statement. While there is no difficulty with it being read out, it might be more useful to have a discussion based on it. If Ms Hoyos wants to read it, it is no problem.

Chairman

Perhaps Deputy Fahey might take the Chair for a few minutes. That is a good suggestion because it might be more beneficial to get into a question and answer session.

Ms Sophie Haspeslagh

There are two other presentations.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

It is a short statement.

Deputy Frank Fahey

I would take the Chair but I have a meeting at 3.45 p.m.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins took the Chair.

Ms Yessika Hoyos

That perhaps would have been an advance if I had not discovered that the convicted policeman was killed himself a year before, that is to say they convicted a dead man.

It is not only my father who has been a victim of crimes of the state — 98% of crimes against trade unionists remain unpunished. More than 1,700 people have been executed extra-judicially, more than 4 million people have been displaced, and thousands of people have been threatened and persecuted by the state.

This situation has increased substantially in the two periods of government of the current president Alvaro Uribe Velez, who has systematically discredited human rights activists and trade unionists, accusing us of being "terrorists" or "helpers" to the guerrillas. In the Colombian context, this increases the risk that we face and the chance that we will be victims of crimes ourselves.

Recently it has come to light that the Administrative Department for Security, DAS, the state intelligence agency that answers directly to the President of the Republic, carried out, in the full knowledge of its management, an immense intelligence operation against human rights organisations and their members, trade unionists and the political opposition. The Jose Alvear Restrepo Lawyers Collective, of which I am a member, was the human rights NGO most affected by the illegal and illegitimate activity of this state agency.

This agency carried out interceptions of all communications between the human rights defenders, and innumerable activities that reached alarming proportions. For example, it developed detailed reports, including details of people's private lives, identified their homes and offices, phones, relatives, friends, migratory movements and psychological profiles, among other things. They developed permanent surveillance and following this, got hold of the keys to at least one human rights defender's house, took video and photographic evidence of people and places and carried out threatening actions, among other things. So much detail was collected, the agency was able to put together a routine of our lives but it was not done to take care of us.

Last week the worrying information emerged that the operatives were not just following us to terrorise us but there were written orders on how to threaten human rights defenders and journalists and, in one particular case, orders were issued to threaten a journalist that her daughter would be raped and chopped up for her denunciation of human rights abuses.

The state security apparatus has been converted into a criminal enterprise that breeds terror and has committed awful crimes. The former director of DAS, Jorge Noguera Cotes, is on trial in the Colombian justice system. One of the reasons he has gone on trial is because he drew up lists of trade unionists to hand over to paramilitaries for them to be killed, and some of them were killed.

Currently, 133 members of congress are being investigated for their links to paramilitaries. As a result of those investigations, the supreme court has also been targeted and threatened. Despite all the evidence, the Colombian state has refused to admit its responsibility for the human rights violations and the impunity and instead has rewarded the perpetrators and attacked those of us human rights defenders who have tried to highlight what is going on.

Colombia is one of the countries that has signed more International Labor Organization conventions and UN treaties than any other but, sadly, it does not respect those conventions and treaties. For that reason I ask Ireland, a community that historically stood up and spoke out for human rights, to oppose the signing of a free trade agreement with Colombia. Europe, which is known for its stance to defend human rights, should not sign an agreement with a government that is abusing human rights. The United States Congress and the Parliaments of Canada and Norway have delayed their own free trade agreements with Colombia citing human rights concerns.

We need Europe and we need the world, but we need solidarity. We do not need resources for war. We need assistance with finding peace in Colombia.

I take this opportunity to thank the 12 Irish members of the European Parliament for supporting the campaign not to sign this free trade agreement with Colombia. I hope the committee also will support our struggle to ensure that Europe does not put commerce above human lives and human rights, and does not help create a position where other young people like me have to suffer in the way I had to suffer. I thank the committee.

Mr. David Joyce

I will be brief as the most important input to the meeting was Yessika's. The members have heard the story directly from Yessika, and that is one of the main reasons the Irish Congress of Trade Unions has given such priority to Colombia in our international solidarity work. To assist us in this task, congress has formed an Irish branch of the trade union network, Justice for Colombia, which is chaired by Mick Dowling from SIPTU, who is observing this meeting. We have been engaged in important advocacy work with the MEPs, the members and Senators to try to use the admittedly limited power we have internationally to apply some pressure to the Colombian authorities to live up to their international obligations.

As we are aware, and Yessika has already stated, Colombia has signed up to all the relevant International Labor Organization conventions but we also know that the ILO, which is an important body for trade unions internationally, has very little teeth with which to enforce those conventions. It is for that reason we believe the use of trade agreements hold the potential to apply some leverage to the Colombian authorities to change the way they treat trade unions and human rights defenders in the country.

The free trade agreement with the European Union referred to earlier would give special trade benefits to a government that has repeatedly failed to implement its international obligations, including basic human and trade union rights. We are very pleased that the 12 Irish MEPs have signed up to the cause and look forward to their contribution to the debate that will take place in the European Parliament, as this is under co-decision in Europe. We are happy also that several other trade union confederations across Europe are following our lead and trying to get their MEPs to sign up also.

Disappointingly, we have yet to convince our own Minister for Foreign Affairs of the need to adopt such a position. In a reply to a parliamentary question last week, he stated that during a recent visit by the Irish ambassador to Colombia he emphasised the importance Ireland attaches to the protection of human rights defenders and trade union leaders and explained the considerable attention this issue has attracted in Ireland. The Foreign Minister in Colombia confirmed that the issue is an important one for Colombia and that every effort was being made to address it in the context of a difficult security situation. The members have heard from Yessika and we would have strong questions about the veracity of that statement.

The Minister ended his reply to the parliamentary question by stating that they would be in contact with the EU Trade Commissioner to, as it was put, "underline our interest in an effective human rights clause being included in any agreement". We welcome that commitment. Jack O'Connor, the president of congress, and David Begg, the general secretary, will be meeting with the Minister in January and will make the case for a much stronger response from the Irish Government.

Ms Sophie Haspeslagh

It is an honour to have the opportunity to address the sub-committee today on behalf of the Colombian and international campaign for the right to defend human rights in Colombia. The campaign has mobilised a broad range of Colombian and international organisations. More than 200 international organisations have signed up to it as well as approximately 75 organisations in Colombia.

In Ireland, ABColombia, which I represent, Trócaire, Christian Aid, Front Line, the Latin American Solidarity Committee and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have joined forces to support this campaign. When we first presented this campaign in October of this year, the Chairman, Senator Ivor Callely, invited us to make a similar presentation to the sub-committee. We thank him for that initiative.

As members have heard from Yessika, being a human rights defender in Colombia is often a dangerous and deadly job. Colombian civil society is vibrant and active but many of its members carry out their work in a climate of fear. They continue to be at very serious risk of killings, disappearances, violent attacks, arbitrary detentions, fabricated prosecutions, harassment, death threats, defamation and intrusive surveillance. Discussions with those courageous human rights defenders underline the five main recommendations of the campaign which I will give some background on to the committee, although I will focus more on the recommendations to the members.

Our first recommendation is to end the misuse of state intelligence. As members have heard from Yessika, the Jose Alvear Restrepo Lawyer's Collective, CAJAR, is a case in point. Many other human rights defenders in Colombia have obtained copies of documents detailing the surveillance undertaken by the Colombian intelligence agency, DAS, which has been mentioned already. It is clear from this information that not only were human rights defenders systematically targeted and threatened but there was an intent to seek to silence them. Many international human rights organisations have also been mentioned in these files. Front Line, which was a co-organiser of this event but, unfortunately, a representative of it could not be here today, was mentioned in these files in 2004 when it was giving support to human rights defenders who were targeted specifically by the DAS.

Ms Hoyos's organisation, on which I will not go into too much detail as she has already spoken about it, has been particularly targeted. A colleague, Soraya Guttierrez, received a doll daubed in blood through the post with the message: "You have a pretty daughter. Don't sacrifice her." CAJAR has discovered through these files that the doll carrying that message was sent by the DAS.

Our second key recommendation is to end systematic stigmatisation of human rights defenders in Colombia. Government representatives from the President down equate human rights defenders with terrorists and guerillas.

Deputy Frank Fahey

Why?

Ms Sophie Haspeslagh

The question of why they equate them with terrorists and guerillas is a difficult one. Our key concern about this is that it is seen as an encouragement to attack human rights defenders. One often sees a chain of events where people are stigmatised, they then receive threats and they then are killed. This is a way of delegitimising their work. It is as simple as that.

One hears the same stories about human rights defenders throughout Colombia, whether they are in Putamayo or Narino. The military at a local level refers to them as terrorists, communists or traitors. Those messages will then be echoed in the death threats and often these people are killed.

Our third key recommendation is to end unfounded criminal proceedings. The recipient of this year's human rights award in the United States, Principe Gabriel Gonzalez, who works for the Committee for Solidarity with Political Prisoners, spent 15 months in prison recently on trumped up charges. This is not an isolated case but part of a pattern of fabricated prosecutions against human rights defenders based on evidence from supposedly demobilised guerillas and paramilitaries. Even when these testimonies lack credibility and are unsubstantiated, they often still lead to arbitrary detention for a long period before these charges are examined more seriously. Human Rights First, an organisation based in the United States, recently documented 32 such cases.

Our fourth main recommendation is to structurally improve the protection programme for people at risk in Colombia. In theory it is great that the Colombian Government has a protection programme and we welcome that but, unfortunately, it has not always been effective in protecting human rights defenders. As we mentioned, often bodyguards involved in this protection programme have been involved in implicating and collecting information on the human rights defenders whom they were meant to protect. The process is incredibly slow and under-rescourced. Human rights defenders in the protection programme still get killed. Ever Gonzalez, one of our partners at ABColombia, was killed in September 2008 even though he was in the protection programme.

Our fifth recommendation is to end impunity for violations against human rights defenders. Crucially linked to all the demands is the campaign's call for an end to impunity for those who attack human rights defenders. This is at the core of the campaign. Official investigations of threats against human rights defenders are almost non-existent. Mauricio Meza Blanco, a Trócaire partner, was the victim of two attempted kidnappings in 2009 but there was no investigation of those incidents.

We encourage the members to visit Colombia and learn about the situation there, but in the meantime, as a consortium representing a number of groups which support this event, we present a number of key recommendations to the committee, which have been circulated. They are set out in two main sections. The first section lists ideas as to what Deputies and Senators can do about the current trade negotiations between the EU and Colombia, about which Mr. Joyce spoke in some detail. One of our key recommendations is to support the Irish Congress of Trade Unions' and the Irish MEPs' call for a suspension of the trade agreement until human rights and trade union rights can be dealt with effectively. We also call for a suspension of the trade negotiations until a number of issues of human rights are clarified. The recommendations are set out in the document circulated, therefore, I will not go into them in detail. The second section sets out concrete ideas as to how Deputies and Senators can support the international campaign on human rights defenders, details of which I presented. The first recommendation is that individual Deputies can support the campaign. The second is that we urge members of this sub-committee to call on the Department of Foreign Affairs to prioritise monitoring of the situation faced by human rights defenders in Colombia and the implementation of the EU guidelines on human rights defenders and for the Department to report back to the sub-committee periodically. The third recommendation is that members would visit Colombia.

Senator Ivor Callely resumed the Chair.

Deputy Frank Fahey

I apologise for interrupting Ms Haspeslagh but, unfortunately, I will have to leave soon as I have to chair a meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport at 3.45 p.m. Has Ms Hoyos or any of her senior officials met the Minister for Foreign Affairs on this trip?

Mr. David Joyce

No. We had tried to organise the meeting, to which I referred, for today but it was not possible to do so because of the Minister's schedule. They have committed to having a meeting on a date in January.

Deputy Frank Fahey

Is Ms Hoyos here for a period of time?

Mr. David Joyce

No, unfortunately, she is only here today.

Deputy Frank Fahey

We will see if the Minister might meet her informally. I will be tied up at another meeting, but if it is possible to do that, it would be useful.

Mr. Liam Craig Best

Ms Hoyos would like to respond to the Deputy's question about why they are accused of——

Deputy Frank Fahey

Unfortunately, I have to leave now.

Chairman

Is the Minister, Deputy Martin, here today?

Deputy Frank Fahey

He was. I will try to talk to Ms Hoyos later. If she gives a list of her proposals to the clerk, I, as the leader of the Irish group on the Council of Europe, will raise those issues at the Council of Europe. We support this campaign 100% and we appreciate the efforts of congress and SIPTU. I may get to talk to Ms Hoyos later but I have to leave now as I am due to chair another meeting. I will see if the Minister for Foreign Affairs can meet Ms Hoyos for a few minutes.

Chairman

Ms Haspeslagh might continue.

Ms Haspeslagh

I will finish outlining the recommendations.

Deputy Frank Fahey

I apologise for having to leave early.

Ms Haspeslagh

I thank the Deputy for his comments. We call on Members to visit Colombia and present to the Department of Foreign Affairs their findings specifically related to the situation of human rights defenders. There is also an opportunity to nominate human rights defenders, particularly from Colombia, for the Front Line award for human rights defenders. I am aware a number of Deputies sit on the panel that makes this award. We also encourage the committee to invite other Colombian human rights defenders to address Deputies and Senators.

Chairman

I thank Ms Haspeslagh for her presentation. I apologise for missing some of the presentations but I understand all the presentations were very informative and fruitful. We all know our position on this issue, with the Seanad having passed a motion yesterday and our MEPs also having passed a motion yesterday. The Government has indicated, by way of a reply to a parliamentary question, its position and that of the Minister, namely, that Ireland fully supports a strategy whereby the negotiation of a free trade agreement with Colombia is part of an EU strategy to support and encourage the Colombian Government as it tries to restore the authority of the state after decades of violent civil conflict and to this end Ireland, along with other EU partners, will continue to input to the European Commission negotiators to ensure a balanced outcome to the negotiations on the free trade agreement with Colombia. In addition, the Minister gave an undertaking that he will write to the EU Trade Commissioner to underline our interest in an effective human rights clause being included in any such agreement. That gives the delegates an overall picture of our position on this issue. Deputy Michael Higgins has indicated he has some questions.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I am happy to clarify a number of points as to where matters stand at present. I tabled the parliamentary question, to which the Chairman referred, which was answered yesterday. It is Question No. 276, reference 47183/09. I will turn to that question in a moment because it indicates the Government's position. It appears to be an excessively optimistic reply in so far as the Government believes the meeting between the ambassador and the foreign ministry might be able to achieve human rights advances in the context of the discussions. This is not my view. However, I will return to that.

The Chairman is correct. All 12 Irish Members of the European Parliament have opted for a stronger position. They want to see observance of human rights before the talks proceed. A similar position was adopted yesterday by a cross-party group of Senators in the Seanad. There is, therefore, a cross-party political position that is more advanced than the Government's position. I have been deeply involved with these issues over a very long period. My reason for opting for the political position rather than the Government's position is Plan Colombia, which is now in the past. The European Union was effectively sucked into an adjustment on Plan Colombia. In other words, it would handle the social, economic and environmental consequences of displacement but, in doing so, it was subsidising the aftermath of a military endeavour. That must not happen again.

The committee has been given at least five presentations on Colombia so far. We were given a presentation on impunity. Several groups have appeared before this committee and the full Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and have told us that we should not barter impunity for peace. We were also given a presentation on displacement and the populations that were moved by both anti-government forces as well as government forces. There was also a presentation on the position of women and children. At one stage we were given a presentation on the four United Nations human rights observers and the importance of them staying in Colombia. Both the general committee and the sub-committee, therefore, have been well informed on the issues in Colombia. I propose that the sub-committee support the cross-party political position that has been taken in the European Parliament.

The next issue is where we go from here in advancing this. There is a new human rights committee in the European Parliament. We will explain the parliamentary position in Ireland to that committee. Then there is the new Trade Commissioner and the human rights Commissioner at European Commission level. I propose that we communicate the position taken by the Irish Parliament to the Commission. Our colleague, Deputy Fahey, is correct that the Council of Europe is also an appropriate place to advance this issue.

The Government's reply to my parliamentary question yesterday was in the context of the EU-Andean Community Association Agreement. The bilateral negotiations with Colombia and Peru occur within that. It would also be valuable if the Irish Congress of Trade Unions used the ILO resolutions and sought to have them attached as conditions to the general EU-Andean Community Association Agreement. It would have the advantage of knocking any gains that would be made in the Colombia case into the other South American negotiations, should they happen. I appreciate the reply from the Minister and that he gave details of the meeting held by the new Irish ambassador to Mexico with the Colombian authorities. However, I have no faith in the capacity of that to deliver a satisfactory outcome. There is the issue of the text. One needs the text of the agreement. Then there is the issue of compliance, followed by the issue of observation. All the other issues are non-governmental relating to the protection of front-line human rights defenders. Ms Hoyos should be aware that the general committee was given a presentation by Front Line on this issue.

I deeply sympathise with Ms Hoyos on the loss of her father and, indeed, on the loss of the 1,700 trade unionists. Some of them have been killed at their place of work but many more have been killed in their communities or their homes. The good thing is that there is an emerging consensus on this issue which we should drive forward.

Senator Mark Daly

I welcome Ms Hoyos, Ms Haspeslagh and Mr. Joyce and apologise for leaving the meeting briefly for the vote. I agree with Deputy Higgins about supporting the motion passed in the Seanad yesterday by all parties — Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party, Sinn Féin and the Independents — to concur with the view of our 12 MEPs in seeking that the EU suspend the free trade agreement with Colombia until its government respects human and trade union rights. While I realise a reply was given by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, I fear the EU is not great when a balance between trade and human rights is involved. It always appears to err on the side of trade to the exclusion of human rights. We should support the motion passed by the Seanad and agreed by the Irish MEPs.

I also support the suggestion by Ms Haspeslagh. As Deputy Higgins said, we have invited a number of groups to give presentations on Colombia. Does she have suggestions on nominees for the Front Line? Perhaps she would forward them to the Chairman and we could support them. In addition, we should support in any way we can the pressure that can be put on Colombia through trade. It worked in the case of South Africa, but it took a long time and the same idea would apply here. As regards Ireland's record on human rights and trade, we have been a thorn in the side of a number of countries because we insisted that the EU should implement its own trade agreements. Gaza is a case in point. Even though it specifically states in our trade agreement with Israel that it must observe human rights, the EU has failed to investigate whether or not there have been human rights abuses, in such a way that they do not really want to find out the answer. In a blatant situation where there is an obligation in our own trade agreement that we want them to observe human rights, when push comes to shove, the EU fails to act. Ireland will always be a supporter of any organisation seeking to defend human rights, whereas our EU colleagues seem to be somewhat lacking. The witnesses have our support; it is the other 26 member states they must look after.

Senator David Norris

I am glad to have our visitors' submission. I apologise for not being here earlier as I was involved in the Seanad debate on the Social Welfare Bill. I managed to persuade the Minister to take on some suggestions concerning appropriate payments, and to mitigate cuts against vulnerable people, so it was worthwhile. I very much wanted to be here, however, particularly because within the last couple of years I have heard one or two active trade unionists from Colombia speaking about this very problem. Meetings were called by student groups and these distinguished and courageous people came to speak at them.

I strongly support the motion that was tabled in the Seanad, although it has not yet been passed. It was tabled yesterday evening by my colleague, Senator Joe O'Toole, and I signed it immediately this morning. It was signed by all the party leaders and I signed it as the foreign affairs representative on the Independent group. I strongly support it.

This must be seen in the context as outlined by Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who is a distinguished defender of human rights, and by Senator Mark Daly. There is a conflict between the official Government diplomatic position on the one hand and the feeling of parliamentarians on the other. I hope this committee will act as a collective group of parliamentarians rather than in any sectarian party way. There is no need in these committees to automatically support the Government position. For various reasons, Governments have to, or feel they are obliged to, take particular positions, which very often place considerations of economic advantage over human rights, even though they may have a strong verbal and official commitment to human rights. Ireland is not unique in this and it is better than most states. It is an observable phenomenon throughout the world, regarding many Governments.

Senator Daly is right in saying that it affects our relationship with the Israelis. Mine is one of friendly criticism. Like many people in Israel with whom I am in contact, I am appalled by the human rights violations and the war crimes that appear to have been committed. I am absolutely delighted that a warrant has been issued for the arrest of Tzipi Livni the leader of the Israeli opposition. I remember welcoming the arrest warrant for General Pinochet, which was issued by a Spanish court. On that occasion, I said on the record of the Seanad that I hoped another one would be speedily issued for Margaret Thatcher for her activities in the Falkland Islands-Malvinas, which were outrageous. Here again, however, there is the same kind of distinction between states and the activities of courts, which are increasingly taking on this issue both domestically and internationally through the International Criminal Court. I very much welcome that. If that clips the wings of some of our international gangsters because they are afraid they will be confined, then so much the better. It is not always successful, as we have seen in the case of Mr. Mugabe.

I strongly support what is being said here about the misuse of human rights and civil rights workers by state intelligence agencies, and the stigmatisation of human rights workers as terrorists. The whole language system internationally was debased under the presidency of the unlamented George W. Bush. In addition, the impunity of those who sometimes have a dual identity as thugs and criminals on the one hand, and officers of the state on the other, should be ended at once. I am very aware of it and am moved to see that among the indigenous people who were mentioned, are the Putamayo indians.

I remember seeing a programme about Roger Casement who is a heroic and iconic figure in this country. His personal life allowed him to be destroyed by the British Government. He first of all got involved in human rights in central Africa, in what was then the Belgian Congo — a private fiefdom of King Léopold where people were being mutilated and exploited. Casement then went to South America and engaged in the same struggle for the human rights of the Putamayo people. A couple of years ago, RTÉ television broadcast a programme in which an elderly chieftain of one of these indigenous peoples said "We need another Casamente". He was speaking for the Putamayo people. Some 90 years after Casement, the same malign forces are still exploiting the people.

The whole of human rights must be looked at. Some years ago, I was on an international committee that examined attacks on the human and civil rights of people who campaigned for gay rights. It has now been expanded to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and all the rest of it. Curiously, in the macho cultures of South America, the mirror image of that is the large proportion of transvestite prostitutes and transsexuals. It is a rather curious situation. They are among the most despised people on the planet, particularly in South America. They are routinely picked off and murdered. I remember having to deal with this subject and it was horrifying. Within the last couple of days I have received information from Honduras about the systematic assassination — the extermination without compunction — of people whose sexual orientation I do not know, I do not think it matters. Merely because they fought for the rights of these marginalised people, they are being wiped out.

The witnesses come to this committee, therefore, to put their material in a context which a number of us do understand, even though their country is so far away. We honour them and we honour Ms Hoyos's father for his great struggle. We will do everything we can, but we must not delude the witnesses into thinking that the influence of this small island is greater than it is. We have some moral authority because of our colonial history and our relatively good behaviour within the European Union. I am sure that whatever influence we can use, we will use. However, we will find that there will be resistance from among the people who see themselves as part of a professional, diplomatic elite on the one hand, and Government on the other, virtually all of whom throughout the world place economic considerations above human rights. Have a look at Tibet and the way this country shamefully changed its position in tune with the growing economic power of the People's Republic of China, without reference to an Irish Parliament or consultation with the Irish people, even though we simultaneously facilitated red China taking a seat on the UN Security Council, and also put a strong case for the independence of Tibet. I think my colleagues and I will certainly do everything we can, but we must be realistic about the impact of what we are doing. We hope the delegates will continue to advise and brief us by electronic mail.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for attending today and making the presentation. I also thank my sub-committee colleagues for their input.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Will the Chairman communicate the feeling of the sub-committee to the overall committee that we are in agreement with the position taken by the Irish MEPs and Seanad?

Chairman

I was going to touch on that. For the benefit of the witnesses, I understand that the motion tabled was a Private Members' motion by the Seanad all-party group and may not be reached for some time. It simply concurs with the view of the 12 Irish MEPs in seeking that the EU would suspend the negotiations for a free-trade agreement with Colombia until its Government respects human and trade union rights. There is a need to tease out this matter somewhat further between ourselves before we agree it as the sub-committee's position. I say that in the context of the reply to Question No. 276, which was very helpful.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Question No. 276 was my question that was answered yesterday. I said — I believe when I was in the Chair when the Chairman was absent — that I find the details in its reply far too weak.

Chairman

I was here when the Deputy Higgins said that.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

If the Chairman wishes to advance the position by the MEPs, I would have no difficulty if he wanted to change the wording. We have agreement that we want a position that is stronger than that. Ambassadors will do what Governments request them to do and will do so very well. The point is that we are parliamentarians and, as far as we are concerned, we need more. An assurance from the Colombian Government is not good enough. The talks need to be suspended, halted, made conditional or whatever. We need something that goes beyond the answer to yesterday's Question No. 276.

Chairman

Ireland supports the negotiations of a free trade agreement with Colombia as the Minister clearly stated. He clearly expressed the concern over the decades of terrorism. His officials, including the ambassador, are doing their diplomatic job and he stated: "I am of the view that continuing the FTA [free trade agreement] negotiations with Colombia at this time offers the best opportunity". I know I am not qualified and I am not sure how qualified the MEPs or ordinary parliamentarians are with respect——

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I feel qualified.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Chairman

——when considered in the context of the information and intelligence available to the Department of Foreign Affairs. There was a time on this island when we also would not negotiate and felt it was best to have entrenched positions, and we saw where that brought us. It was only in the era of change and by mechanisms of negotiation, bringing people on board and recognising that there were faults and warts on all sides of the equation, that we made real progress.

I wonder whether the Minister for Foreign Affairs is taking his position given that he would have somewhat more intelligence and diplomatic information available to him than is available to others. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Micheál Martin, he shares many of the concerns. He is stating the position at this time and is referring to the best opportunity. He clearly recognises there is an issue on human rights. I know that Deputy Frank Fahey has already indicated he will do this and personally I will, as I am sure will the others around this table. The best approach may be to make an approach to the Minister, Deputy Martin. Not alone should we make our approach, but I would also suggest that we keep Colombia on the agenda and table it for discussion at our next meeting in the new year. We might seek clarification of this statement from the Minister, Deputy Martin, and at that stage we could have interaction with him at a meeting of this sub-committee along with any other representative who might like to attend. I would like to make this more meaningful to try to reach the conclusion we all desire.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I appreciate the Chairman's concern. Along with Senator Norris, I am probably the longest-serving member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs.

Senator David Norris

No. I am longer serving.

Chairman

Both of you are looking very well on it with your long service.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Colombia has featured at many meetings. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs in the previous Dáil took a position on Plan Colombia that was different from that of the Government because it realised that the committee was being conned into a position of allocating funding for the replacement of families but not addressing the issue as to why the families were being pushed. It was not an Opposition stance; the committee took an all-party position.

Regarding my Question No. 276, I have no difficulty with this issue coming back on the agenda at a future meeting. However, the difficulty with the reply to Question No. 276 is that it is unhelpful in a number of paragraphs. For examples, it states: "The negotiation of a Free Trade Agreement with Colombia is part of an EU strategy to support and encourage the Colombian Government as it tries to restore the authority of the State after decades of violent civil conflict." The problem is that does not contain the admission that there have been state assassinations. The state, itself, has been a serious party.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

There have been private armies. The peasants, who presented several submissions to us, mentioned about being moved by drug cartels and then in turn being accused of sheltering different people. Agents of the state moved into different areas. There was the defoliation, etc. It is not the case of the Colombian Government restoring authority as it was attacked by terrorists, as stated in another paragraph of the reply. While there was terrorism, it involved state terrorism, private armies and different drug cartels, etc. I am familiar with all of that because over the years I have met representatives of all the different organisations as have other members of the committee. That is why I hope I am not being impertinent or arrogant in saying that I feel totally qualified to speak about Colombia.

I wish to suggest another reason the position as outlined in the reply to Question No. 276 needs to be advanced. The bilateral talks taking place with Colombia and Peru are taking place in the context of the EU-Andean Community agreement. Taking a strong line with Colombia helps all the parties in the Andean community agreement. By applying pressure, the Andean community then knows that Colombia represents the sticking point unless it gives serious commitments on human rights. Therefore, there is a net advantage, with gains not only for Colombia — Peru is not exactly wholesome either — but also for the other signatories. I am being honest about it. Question No. 276 is too weak. The position taken in the Seanad yesterday was perhaps too direct but I am in favour of the strong parliamentary position rather than the other position.

Chairman

I fully appreciate the Deputy's comments. I also attended the meeting in Buswells Hotel.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

There are so many of them.

Chairman

I took the opportunity having had prior discussion with the clerk to the committee to invite the group before the sub-committee today. The Deputy tabled a parliamentary question.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

We did not get to it during Question Time.

Chairman

It states, "For written answer". However, if the Deputy had the opportunity, he would have asked a supplementary question because he has a wealth of knowledge and the Minister's response would have been interesting. In negotiations, there is time for a good cop and a bad cop and sometimes one can be both or have a bad cop as the outrider in order that one can come in as the good cop. I am not sure why the Minister did not address the issue of state terrorism and violence and whether there was a reason for that. We do not know because we have not had an exchange with him on this issue. I would like to draft the best and most meaningful motion to achieve a result and it might be beneficial to have a discussion with the Minister in order that we would know what is best. We may not agree with him but, as the Deputy said, on occasion in the past the Government had one view and the sub-committee had another and that did not resolve the issue. I am trying to achieve something meaningful, which may reach a resolution. If we have gone different ways in the past, perhaps we should not do the same again.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

The Minister has moved to our position on Gaza and we are all happy about that. We are ad idem on Gaza——-

Chairman

We might move the Minister to our position on Colombia if we get to talk to him.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Perhaps he should be invited to appear at the next meeting.

Chairman

Yes.

Senator David Norris

It would be a good idea to invite the Minister to appear. I would be happy to continue this discussion. We have been advised by our friends from Colombia. I have no difficulty with that continuing. It would be useful, particularly if the Minister appears, to explain our strong interest in this matter.

With regard to who is the longest serving member, I acknowledge Deputy Higgins is the senior member because of his knowledge, experience and wisdom.

Senator Mark Daly

It has nothing to do with age.

Senator David Norris

Age is wonderful, and I glory in it.

We should continue the discussion. A general motion is on the Order Paper and a Member might take it in Private Members' time. This is his or her privilege but he or she may not. It is possible the Leader might be persuaded to schedule a brief debate for half an hour or so to get it passed.

With regard to the rewording of this, as long as it is strong I do not mind. One of the problems is that in the past human rights protocols have been attached to international agreements that dealt with trade such as the Euro-Med agreement and they have not been monitored. There have been massive violations, including war crimes, and human rights protocols that are supposed to call into question the existing agreement are not even being taken out, dusted down and looked at. They are being deliberately ignored. That degrades the notion of human rights and weakens human rights internationally. I seek a strong wording, which makes sure an effective human rights protocol is added to this trade agreement. It should be triggered automatically by violations of human rights. We should not have to wait for an agreement.

Chairman

I am inclined to concur with what has been expressed. It is only fair that we would allow not only the Minister but the Department of Foreign Affairs and those associated directly or indirectly with the trade negotiations or with Colombia to have the opportunity to read the Blacks of the meeting. I will also ask the clerk to the sub-committee and the adviser to draft an appropriate memorandum or letter to the Minister that would reflect the issues raised, seek clarification from him on the position and invite him to a meeting in the new year.

I am not sure if anyone favours us taking an entrenched position or removing ourselves from any opportunity to negotiate and to include in negotiations, as Senator Norris said, particular issues to the level we want them tied down and then to ensure they are implemented. The Minister states in his letter, "I am of the view that continuing the FTA negotiations with Colombia at this time offers the best opportunity to address the concerns we are talking about". If that is his view, let us hear him on why he is saying that and how he intends to achieve what we all want. We know where we are, what we want to achieve, the obstacles and the rewards if we remove them and how best we can get there. That is our game plan. Let us find out from the Minister whose agenda is no different from ours. If that is his agenda, let us see how we can do that united and together.

Mr. David Joyce

I thank all the members for the general support for the issues we have laid before them. With regard to communication with the Minister, I refer to two issues. Ms Hoyos referred to the position we are asking him to adopt. It is not out of step with other major blocs, which are seeking to sign similar agreements with Colombia, including the US, Canada and Norway. Norway has delayed the EFTA agreement also.

These negotiations are moving towards a swift conclusion in 2010 and, therefore, if there is to be movement, it will have to happen quickly.

Ms Sophie Haspeslagh

On the issue of including a human rights clause within the trade negotiation, that is often the response we get from Governments. Our main concern is the fact of signing a negotiation with a Government that is already violating and not implementing the conventions to which they signed up.

Senator David Norris

Could the delegation give us evidence in this regard and not only of the past? The critical thing for such negotiations is evidence of continuing and consistent human rights violations during the negotiations. That would indicate bad faith on the part of the Colombian Government and would strengthen the hand of those of us who want to support human rights.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

An example is the harassment of the Supreme Court.

Ms Yessika Hoyos

We can provide evidence of ongoing violations of human rights. For example, 49 trade unionists were assassinated last year and many have been assassinated this year. Indigenous people have been assassinated this year. The stigmatisation against human rights defenders continues. There is a systematic and ongoing abuse of human rights in Colombia.

Senator David Norris

These are very important. One element was omitted. We need the names, the dates and the places, because everything has to be concrete and such information would be extremely helpful.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for a most informative presentation. I am grateful to all for the comprehensive coverage of this issue and for the clear and concise recommendations made to the committee. I think the delegation has been given a feeling of where the committee stands on this issue and how it will proceed. My colleagues and I will raise these issues with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Department. The clerk to the committee will forward the letter as suggested and we will look forward to a response. It would be useful to have a further discussion on Colombia in the new year with this delegation and this can be arranged with the secretariat of the committee. This issue will be a priority for the committee in 2010 and we will follow the process as I have outlined.

Senator David Norris

I ask the Chairman to include in the work programme for 2010 the matters I raised about the murder of civil rights workers who seek to protect the gay community in Honduras and other countries.

Chairman

I will do that. I will arrange for a letter to be sent to members with regard to an agenda. This concludes the public session and we will now continue in private session.

The sub-committee went into private session at 4.30 p.m. and adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 11:30 a.m. on Thursday, 11 February 2010.