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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 24 Aug 2010

Crisis in Pakistan: Discussion

Before we start, I thank Trócaire, Concern, the Irish Red Cross and Médicins san Frontières for the briefing they supplied to members before the meeting.

I welcome Her Excellency Mrs. Naghmana A. Hashmi, ambassador to Ireland of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The ambassador is accompanied by Mr. Arshed Saud Khosa, from the Pakistani embassy. I also welcome Deputy Peter Power, Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with responsibility for overseas development. The Minister is accompanied by Mr. Brendan Rogers, director general of Irish Aid, and Mr. Felim McLoughlin, also from Irish Aid.

I also welcome the representatives in the Visitors Gallery. They include Mr. Niels Rasmussen, representing the Danish embassy, Ms Nina MacKenzie, representing the British embassy, Ms Despoina Valamvou, representing the Greek embassy, Kim Wallis who is representing Trócaire, Mr. Peter Glennon, representing the US embassy, Ambassador Devriese from Belgium, Mr. Shaheen Ahmed, representing the Islamic Culture Centre, Ms Antoinette Rademan, representing the South African embassy, Ms Ingrid Szabo, representing the Croatian embassy, and the representatives of Concern, Mr. Derek McDowell, Mr. Paul O'Brien and Ms Lucia Ennis.

The current situation in Pakistan following the continuous flooding of recent weeks and days remains dire. At this stage it could not be described as a disaster but as a catastrophe of major proportions. More than 1,500 people have been killed and more than 6 million people have already been made homeless. The flood waters are continuing to rise, particularly in the southern Sindh province. Millions more people are estimated to be going hungry and official estimates put the total number of people affected by the flooding at more than 15 million. Some 900,000 houses have been destroyed as well as the lives of many people. There are also fears about the spread of disease such as cholera, with outbreaks more likely among the 6 million left homeless and living in unhygienic conditions in the intense heat. Up to 500,000 people are living in about 5,000 schools in flood-hit areas, where poor hygiene and sanitation along with cramped quarters and stifling heat provide fertile ground for potentially fatal diseases.

The worst floods in decades have destroyed villages, bridges and roads, and raise concerns that militants will exploit the misery and chaos. Yesterday, Pakistan's Foreign Minister confirmed the country had so far been pledged €520 million by the international community. Figures of up to €700 million were mentioned beyond that. However, that figure is tiny in comparison with the amount the country needs to fund recovery from the flood and the €35 billion debt it already has. As well as asking for aid, Pakistani officials are seeking debt relief from the International Monetary Fund while they deal with the crisis, which is expected to cost €10 billion. The Government has pledged a total of €2 million in humanitarian assistance to the Pakistani people. Funding is being provided to UN agencies and NGOs responding to the floods, including Concern, Trócaire and the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA.

On 16 August the shipment of large tents from Ireland stockpiled in Brindisi was sent to Pakistan. They will be used to provide emergency shelter to hundreds of affected families. Ireland's rapid response corps of humanitarian experts is on standby to deploy upon request by partner UN agencies and a number of NGOs. Finally, we will hear from the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, about Ireland's contribution to this catastrophe.

I congratulate the Minister of State on his immediate reaction when the floods began in allocating €200,000, if I remember correctly, and increasing it to €2 million shortly afterwards. The Minister of State can also brief the committee on last week's emergency meeting of the United Nations in New York, which he attended. I will then ask Ambassador Hashmi to update the joint committee on the current situation in her country and on what Ireland and the wider international community can do to intensify the aid effort. Following both presentations there will be questions from members.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice or rulings of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. That is a new development as far as witnesses are concerned. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, to address the meeting following which we will hear a presentation from Ambassador Hashmi.

I wish on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government to be associated with the comments made in respect of the late Professor Jim Dooge who served in a distinguished way in the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Department in which I now serve as Minister of State. Professor Dooge was a distinguished Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas and served in Government from Seanad Éireann. I am aware that Senator O'Toole has followed in his footsteps. Whether or not he will do so in that capacity remains to be determined in the future.

There are other expressions of interest.

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for their initiative in convening this special meeting and express my appreciation for their providing me with the opportunity to brief the committee on the catastrophe and Ireland's response to it. I pay tribute to the work of Ambassador Hashmi who has worked tirelessly to mobilise aid and to facilitate access for humanitarian aid and aid workers into Pakistan. I met with the ambassador in the early stages of this disaster to discuss the response of her Government and the international community and the contribution that Ireland can best make.

I would like to introduce my team which includes Mr. Brendan Rogers, Director-General and Mr. Felim McLaughlin, head of the humanitarian and emergency response department, both of whom have extensive experience in this area and have, in co-operation with me, worked hard during the past number of weeks in formulating our response. I am profoundly concerned by the current humanitarian crisis in Pakistan. It behoves us to use all opportunities at our disposal to continue to raise awareness in all quarters of the scale of this disaster and the need for a global response. We simply must give this catastrophe the urgency it demands.

I returned Friday last from New York where I addressed the UN General Assembly on behalf of the Government at an emergency meeting on the situation in Pakistan. I appealed to the international community to wake up to the seriousness of the humanitarian crisis facing us. More than 1,400 people have lost their lives and at least 15 million people have been affected by the flooding. This figure may rise even further. This is an extraordinary scale by anyone's reckoning. It is stretching the capacity of our global humanitarian mechanisms to respond adequately. The damage to infrastructure has seen us rely on mules and donkeys to deliver life-saving aid. While the Pakistani Government and the international community have made dozens of helicopters available, this simply is not a sustainable way to deliver assistance to millions of people.

The UN World Food Programme, to which Ireland contributes significantly, needs to feed 6 million people, its largest caseload this decade. It has already reached 2 million people, providing them with food for a month. However this leaves many people, in particular children, at risk of starvation. The UN Secretary General, Mr. Ban Ki-moon, stated at last week's General Assembly meeting that we have an enormous responsibility to ensure that a natural disaster does not become a man made catastrophe. I fear this may happen. The international community has learned many lessons from its response to the Asian tsunami and considerable improvements have been since then made to emergency response mechanisms. The United Nations instituted a cluster system to provide greater clarity of the needs in an emergency and to assist our collective co-ordination to meet them. I am proud that Ireland played a role in introducing these improvements. This system is now being used in Pakistan and while not everything is working perfectly, the benefits of the cluster system are clearly visible. When I visited Haiti last month I saw this system in operation and working effectively. However, new humanitarian emergencies such as the scale of destruction and loss of life we experienced in the Haiti earthquake and the current situation in Pakistan continue to challenge our ability to deliver the required response.

The needs of the people of Pakistan are not complex; they include clean water, food, shelter and medicines. Delivering this aid to where it is needed is where the complexity arises. The nature of much of the terrain, the persistent flood waters, the scale of the devastation and affected population, the damage to essential transport infrastructure and the effects of conflict and insecurity are all combining to complicate the delivery of essential aid. The rains and flooding continue and will persist into September, further complicating the relief effort.

In terms of the co-ordination of the humanitarian response, the Government of Pakistan is rightly taking the lead. However, I emphasise to this committee the vital role which the United Nations needs to play in working closely with the Government of Pakistan in co-ordinating the global response. It is vital also to ensure that appropriate assistance is provided to all those in need, as soon as possible, as well as ensuring there is no duplication of aid or gaps in the response. Co-ordination and co-operation provide us with the best strategy for an effective humanitarian response and anything less will result in further loss of life. I saw at first hand in Haiti the vital importance of delivering aid in a co-ordinated manner. The work done by the United Nations in this regard is invaluable. Ireland contributes very significant funding to the UN agencies involved in this effort, including the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs or OCHA, the World Food Programme and UNICEF. On Thursday I had a detailed meeting with Mr. John Holmes, head of OCHA, the person co-ordinating the global response. We must remain aware of the enormous challenges faced by individuals caught up in this crisis. People are understandably desperate to provide for their families, to help feed their children and to rescue those still trapped by the rising flood waters. It is our responsibility to help them.

I appeal to all those responding to continue to observe international humanitarian principles and best practice and to ensure that those in need receive the most timely and appropriate assistance. Adherence to these principles is the best way to ensure aid reaches those most in need. The Government and public have already contributed generously to the humanitarian response and the funds continue to arrive in support of our non-governmental organisations. As of late last week, the Irish public had donated €2.5 million, which is an extraordinary response given the challenges we currently face. I can confirm to the committee that I intend inviting major NGOs and aid agencies to a meeting next week to discuss how Government and aid agencies can work together in providing a co-ordinated and holistic response to this crisis.

The Government has in recent years prioritised the pre-positioning of emergency assistance to enable the fastest possible release of humanitarian assistance by our partners in the field in the event of a sudden onset emergency such as the floods in Pakistan. This strategy has been implemented by pre-positioning funding with a number of key Irish NGOs and aid agencies and through annual contributions to the UN's Central Emergency Response Fund, the CERF. The CERF, which Ireland was instrumental in establishing following the Asian tsunami earlier this decade, enables the UN to access resources immediately to assist in sudden onset emergencies such as this. Since 2006, Ireland has provided €73 million in funds to the CERF, including €20 million in 2009. Our pre-positioning of this money has provided the United Nations partner agencies with the necessary flexibility and early resource mobilisation which is vital for their initial response. In addition, we have since 2007 pre-positioned emergency non-food items through a partnership with the WFP. These supplies have proven invaluable in providing early and speedy humanitarian assistance. Last week, I authorised the release of a consignment of tents from our stores. Those arrived in Islamabad for distribution through the International Organisation for Migration. I will be adding to these supplies this week. Ireland is also working with our stand-by partner agencies, such as the UN Refugee Agency and the UN World Food Programme, to support their operations through the provision of personnel from our rapid response corps. I am pleased to inform the committee that a member of the Dublin Fire Service, who is a trained member of the rapid response corps, is being deployed this week as part of the UN Disaster Assessment and Coordination team, UNDAC, carrying out needs assessments in Pakistan.

Ireland has provided further resources to a number of key responding partners in this emergency. We have provided funding support to some of our partner NGOs such as Concern and Trócaire, which are doing excellent work in Pakistan. Ireland also prioritises the co-ordination role of the United Nations and we have provided targeted funds to UNOCHA for its response. I was able to announce a more than doubling of Ireland's humanitarian assistance to €2 million in total at the UN late last week. My officials are currently examining the allocation of these funds with implementing partners on the basis of needs assessments on the ground in Pakistan. I emphasise to the committee that this is our initial humanitarian response for the relief phase of this emergency and compares favourably with other countries. It should be considered in the context of the very significant funding we provide on a multiannual basis to UN aid agencies. Further funding will be provided once a comprehensive post-disaster needs assessment has been carried out.

This year started with the devastating earthquake in Haiti. We continue to work closely with our partners in that country to ensure the recovery is as effective and comprehensive as possible. Humanitarian disasters do not respect annual calendars and we are now faced with a further enormous challenge in the flooding situation in Pakistan. I am grateful, once again, to have the opportunity to continue to draw attention to the scale and nature of this appalling crisis. We still have the opportunity to save lives in Pakistan. I assure the committee that assisting and facilitating the humanitarian response in Pakistan is a key priority for me as Minister of State. The global community will be measured by how we respond to the enormous humanitarian needs of the Pakistani people in this time of unprecedented crisis.

I thank the Minister of State

H. E. Mrs. Naghmana A. Hashmi

I wish to express my deep appreciation to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs for providing me this opportunity to brief it on the greatest humanitarian crisis in recent history unfolding in Pakistan. Pakistan has been severely affected by unprecedented floods caused by unusually heavy rains. According to UN officials, the disaster caused by the floods has eclipsed the scale of devastation caused by the Indian Ocean tsunami, the earthquakes in Pakistan and Haiti, and cyclone Nargis put together. The UN Secretary General called it a global disaster, a slow motion tsunami and one of the greatest tests of global solidarity in our times.

To grasp fully the impact of the floods, I would like briefly to explain the geographical relief of Pakistan. Pakistan is a physically dramatic country and it is this drama that shapes and influences the lives of the people. Mighty Himalayas, Karakurams, Hindukush and the Sulaiman ranges form the northern and western borders of Pakistan. This is where the northern regions, the Pakhtoon Khwa and Balochistan provinces are located, bordering Afghanistan. The middle grounds comprise the Punjab and Sind plains with the Arabian Sea forming its southern border.

The River Indus rises in Tibet and flows west before turning south through Pakistan to drain in the Arabian Sea. The mighty Indus after entering Pakistan travels 2,880 km before reaching the sea. Four large rivers enter Pakistan from India in the east and traversing through Punjab meet the Indus just before it enters Sind. The most fertile land lies on both sides of the Indus.

The floods in Pakistan were caused by unusually heavy rainfall from this year's monsoons. According to UN experts heavy monsoons were driven by a super-charged jet stream that has also caused heavy floods in China and a prolonged heat wave in Russia, presumably the result of global warming and climate change. The floods have ravaged the country from the north to the south all along the Indus and its tributaries, leading to tragic loss of human lives and crops. It has also led to widespread loss of livestock and physical and communication infrastructure collapse in all the provinces, particularly in the north and north west and in wide areas of Punjab and Sind.

According to estimates floods in Pakistan have affected more than 20 million people so far, which is five times the population if Ireland. One fifth of the country is inundated. According to the UN the size of the area affected by disaster is equivalent to the area of Austria, Switzerland and Belgium combined -approximately four times the size of Ireland. The affected area is more than the size of 50% of the countries in the world. More than 1,600 people have so far lost their lives. Many more are missing. Dead bodies are discovered each day as the waters recede and more areas become accessible. More than 1.2 million houses have been destroyed. Hundreds of villages along the Indus river remain submerged. More than 70% of the roads and bridges in the flood-stricken areas have been destroyed with none remaining intact in the Swat valley. According to the UN, 8 million flood victims are in need of urgent humanitarian relief. More than 4 million people have been rendered completely destitute and homeless. Some 6 million people are at risk of deadly water-borne diseases, including 3.5 million children.

Ours is primarily an agrarian economy. Some 70% of our population is employed in the agriculture sector. Agriculture accounts for 20% of the country's GDP and this is where we have been hit the most. More than 1.7 million acres of agricultural land has been submerged. Standing crops worth billions of dollars have been destroyed. Approximately 20% of the cotton crop or 3 million tonnes of cotton has been lost. More than 1 million tonnes of wheat stored in warehouses has been swept away. In the province of the Punjab, almost 1 million acres of cotton growing area is affected and crops worth $1 billion destroyed. In the south, standing crops worth $1.2 billion over an area of 100,000 acres face complete destruction. In the north, more than 325,000 acres of land stand submerged and crops worth $500 million destroyed. In Balochistan, villages and towns are still being inundated.

The critical sector of livestock has been equally devastated. Hundreds of thousands of cattle have been lost. Thousands of acres of agricultural land have been left uncultivable for the next several years. However, the full impact on soil erosion and agriculture can only be assessed when the water recedes around mid-September.

Textile and agriculture account for approximately three quarters of Pakistan's $21 billion exports, which will now be adversely affected. Before the floods the GDP was expected to grow by 4.5% in the fiscal year ending in June 2011. Now that target would be impossible to achieve. Economic costs of the floods are expected to run into billions of dollars. According to the government's initial estimates, $15 billion over five years will be required to recover from this disaster. Unfortunately, these are only initial estimates and the situation is still evolving.

As of now, serious problems are being encountered with food supplies, lack of clean water, shelter and outbreaks of disease. Any government, however competent, would be shocked by what has happened along the Indus in Pakistan. The situation is critical and alarming. The aftermath of the floods in the medium to long term would pose more daunting challenges. However, our immediate challenge is to meet the food, health and clean drinking water needs of the millions displaced and to rebuild the infrastructure destroyed by the floods.

The story does not end here. Our urban infrastructure is coming under severe stress as millions of people migrate to bigger cities in search of shelter and jobs. Another serious problem, with long-term socioeconomic implications, is the loss of land and potential decline in the arability of flood affected lands. The food security of the sixth most populous country in the world is at risk. The possible threats of food riots and related violence cannot be ruled out.

The Government of Pakistan has mobilised all its national resources to provide rescue and relief to the affected people. Hundreds of thousands have been rescued and evacuated from flood affected areas. Schools in Pakistan will not re-open after summer vacations as they are being used to provide shelter to flood victims. In this hour of unparalleled devastation the entire nation stands united and determined to overcome this challenge. The people of Pakistan are doing everything within their means to help their displaced countrymen.

To muster more funds from within the country the government has decided to set up an independent national entity to mobilise maximum domestic resources and ensure their effective and transparent use. This entity will comprise of men of integrity who will supervise the collection, management and distribution of relief funds among the flood affected areas.

Pakistan's commitment and resolve notwithstanding, the scale of the challenge is colossal, much too large for any developing country to handle alone. This is a disaster of enormous proportions and the devastation caused is colossal. It is beyond the capacity of any single nation to tackle it without help from the larger international community. A massive global response is necessary to avert the second wave of disaster in the form of starvation and disease which are threatening millions of survivors, particularly the most vulnerable, namely, women and children. We need international assistance now. The Government of Pakistan has, therefore, appealed to the international community to come forward in all earnestness to provide the much needed support to augment our national relief and rescue efforts. The people of Pakistan are depending on the people of the world.

The Foreign Minister of Pakistan stated at the United Nations General Assembly that this disaster has hit us hard at a time - and in areas where - we are in the midst of fighting a war against extremists and terrorists. The people of Pakistan have stood by their brave security forces in the fight against terrorism. While our successes have been lauded by the international community, they have come at a heavy price. More than 10,000 innocent civilians have fallen victim to terrorism and more than 2,500 Pakistani soldiers have given their lives. Our material losses exceed US$43 billion. The gains we have made against the terrorists are substantial, yet we remain exposed.

As our Foreign Minister stated at the UN General Assembly's special meeting:

Pakistanis are a resilient people. We are no strangers to challenges and difficulties. This is a nation that suffered the ravages of the 2005 earthquake, and bravely bore the loss of 80,000 people. We are the people who have borne the brunt of the international fight against terrorism and extremism, with relentless courage and determination.

This is the nation that braced, with fortitude, the loss of thousands of its men, women and children to suicide attacks. We are the people that the international community looks towards as a bulwark against terrorism and extremism. This is the nation which now looks towards the international community to show a similar determination and solidarity.

In response to the United Nations appeal for $460 million for urgent relief, the international community, as of yesterday according to the information available to my embassy, has so far pledged $815 million. Many of these pledges need to be realised. However, billions of dollars will be required in the medium and long term for a full recovery. While Pakistan will continue to generate funds from its domestic sources, it will also require sustained long-term commitment of the international community.

The Government and people of Pakistan deeply appreciate the assistance given by the Irish Government in this hour of tragedy to Pakistan. We are also extremely appreciative of the fantastic humanitarian assistance and work being done by the various Irish charities in Pakistan. Through you, Mr. Chairman, I thank members of the Irish public for their concern and generosity towards the people of Pakistan in these difficult times and the Irish media for their excellent coverage which has helped to keep this unfolding tragedy in focus.

I am pleased to note that the public contribution of Irish people has exceeded €2.5 million. This marks a continuation of the long, great and generous tradition among Irish people. It should be noted by all observers that, notwithstanding all the circumstances, people want to help by providing humanitarian aid.

I appreciate the opportunity of welcoming the ambassador in what are admittedly very tragic circumstances for her country. I wrote to Her Excellency Mrs. Naghmana A. Hashmi some time ago on behalf of the Labour Party expressing our solidarity with the people of Pakistan in the circumstances that were unfolding. I pay tribute to the presentation made by the Minister of State since the disaster has unfolded on television and elsewhere in keeping the attention of the Irish public on the issue.

The point made by the Chairman may be a good place to begin. The contribution of Irish civil society has been generous and I hope it continues, grows, is immediate and will have consequences that are without delay. It should also become the test of the adequacy of the governmental response. Perhaps the most important phrase in the Minister of State's interesting speech is that the Government's response thus far is an initial one which will increase.

The questions that arise are very serious and I will be as frank as possible. We need international acceptance of the global scale of the humanitarian disaster that is unfolding. It is not strictly comparable to anything that has taken place recently. This presents us both with opportunities and problems. One of the problems is that our response will test the concept of universality in relation to universal human rights. One of the most distressing aspects in the media, which have been excellent, has been the tendency of a small number of people on so-called "phone in" programmes to fall into the trap of using the conflict that is taking place in the region as an excuse to suggest that this issue does not engage us universally. I have no doubt it does engage us universally.

There are opportunities in the long-term on which we should be working now. If one looks at the demography of the region that includes Pakistan and India, one finds not only an enormous population at risk but a population that is clearly divided in terms of prospects. By this I mean, it is divided in terms of poverty, participation in society and labour rights. Many years ago I worked on a campaign that sought to address the issue of bonded labour. I would not have any credibility if I did not say this.

The West has played a part in the conflict between neighbours in the region that has been taking place for a long time. International armaments companies have sold into both countries armaments that are not of a simple kind but at the high end of technology. These armaments cost billions of euro. I say this to indicate that there is a prospect of a new beginning diplomatically in the region which will offer a better long-term future for the population. While we are responding to the immediate aid requirements arising from a disaster, the diplomatic context should be borne in mind and not lost. One cannot address natural disasters as if they were occurring in a neutral context when one is employing continuously the language of "the war on terror". The "war on terror" has clear implications in regard to language. Terror is different, for example, in regard to the classical near-historical relations between India and Pakistan. It is a relationship sometimes between states. The discussions that took place from 2004 onwards were between states. The problem about having language such as a "war on terrorism" is that one is not talking about something one is able to define. I do not say this in order to become abstract about what we are saying.

I wish to turn to the immediate issues. The Government response must be compared to the Irish people's response. The people's response to voluntary agencies exceeds what the Government is doing. The Minister of State will have my support if he wants to increase what the Government is pledging. To be fair to him, he has said that what we have done so far is an opening response. He referred in his speech to the €70 million that is being committed to the central emergency relief fund. He is correct to say that the €20 million last year was well spent. In the same paragraph he referred to the importance of being prepared in advance in order to be ready. In that case it is difficult to understand the €4 million that we have pledged in 2010. If we were congratulating ourselves on having been prepared last year, it is surely as important to be prepared next year.

I referred previously to the matter and I do not wish to go down that road again. The contribution this country made at that time through the late Professor Nash and others in providing technical and intellectual assistance to people who had worked in flood forecasting was a glorious achievement of the Department of Foreign Affairs. It was the most miserable kind of bureaucratic nonsense when the HEA said it should be doing something such as that. It closed down the foreign affairs programme on hydrology and then it offered nothing in place of it. Students came from China, Vietnam, Colombia and other places who are now in the highest positions. That is something we should consider.

It is valuable that the ambassador has stressed what must happen now in terms of immediate needs such as food, shelter, medicines, clean water and particularly the vulnerability of children. Then there are short-term needs which will arise in regard to shelter. In addition, there are needs in regard to the return to productive agriculture and other long-term needs relating to infrastructure. We should assist them all. There is no doubt whatsoever that we need not pretend to be naive. It was always the case that the price that would be paid for climate change would be paid by the poorest of the poor. I am conscious as I look along the Indus river and the population near it that it is the poorest of the poor who are being affected. That raises other issues. The independent agency to which the ambassador referred is interesting. It would be very easy in these circumstances that are so dire to allow a kind of militarisation of aid but that would be disastrous. If there is a lesson from international disasters it is that the use of the civil society organisations with a local component is probably the best, most acceptable and transparent way of spending our resources. We should do that.

The European Union astonishes me to some extent occasionally. It has been Pakistan's greatest customer. I wish it realised how inappropriate it is to refer to creating conditions which will enable Pakistan to return to growth in the supporting documentation it circulated. That kind of economic paradigm is ridiculous at the present time when we are talking about the survival of the population there and the survival of the population in a neighbouring country. My hope is that out of this, the worst of tragedies for Pakistan, a relationship will emerge between Pakistan and India that will free both from the lean that is on them from international powers and multinational corporations that are driving them in directions that are far away from the needs of their own people. In the short term I urge the Irish people to continue with their generosity. The Government must seek to catch up with and pass out that generosity.

I welcome the ambassador and thank her for her presentation. I also thank the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, for his presentation. There is a sizeable Pakistani community in my constituency in north Dublin. One can see how the effects of the disaster are brought home. I commend the media for keeping the floods to the forefront of the news. That is important as it feeds into the response of the public to the humanitarian crisis.

I heard the ambassador on RTE radio on Sunday morning where she was put in the position of having to defend her government's stance. It was unfortunate that militarisation and government expenditure on it in terms of the borders with Afghanistan and India were introduced into the debate. I would like her to expand on the matter a little more. Deputy Higgins referred to the Pakistani Government's response in terms of humanitarian aid versus the budget for military spending. That argument should not even be brought to the table in the context of the humanitarian crisis but the issue has been raised, for example on the radio on Sunday, so I invite the ambassador to expand a little more on it.

I welcome the fact that an independent agency is being set up by the Pakistani Government. Will the ambassador address that issue also? It goes without saying that our sympathies and support are with the ambassador and the people of Pakistan. We will do what we can to assist.

I note that the previous visit to Pakistan was by the Minister of State's predecessor in 2007. Does the Minister of State have any intention of visiting the region himself to see the response on the ground? There has been some criticism of the initial allocation of funds, which it is important to state is in addition to our multiannual funding. Mr. Rogers and the Minister of State have attended committee meetings on many occasions when members have inquired whether aid is reaching the right people. Does the Minister of State intend to bring a delegation to Pakistan to see how our money is being spent on the ground?

Concern has been critical of the Government's initial response of €2 million. The Minister of State indicated in his opening statement that the amount compares favourably at this stage to donations by comparable nations. Will he expand on that point and explain what will be the next stage in terms of funding?

Deputy Higgins referred to the use of military helicopters by the relief effort in order to get aid to the affected communities. The point has been made about the equipment on the ground currently. The view is that the military aspect should be taken out of the relief effort as much as possible. We need to use whatever is available to get initial relief to people. The NGOs and the UN have referred also to NATO military assets not being used. Perhaps the ambassador could indicate whether other military assets in the region are being used to assist in the relief effort and what is the Pakistani Government's view. When one hears that approximately 6 million people are at risk of water-borne diseases, including 3.5 million children, as a short-term measure we should use whatever is available in the region to assist in providing aid.

I thank the Minister of State and the ambassador. Coming from a small country it is very difficult to envisage the scale of the tragedy that has occurred in Pakistan. We have had floods in this country but they have been minuscule compared to what is happening in her country. The sympathy of everyone is with the ambassador but sympathy alone will not bring about much change.

The media were mentioned and I have no doubt they focused attention on this issue. I have been getting a sense in the past few days that the story is slipping. A very strong, concerted effort must be made to ensure people continue to be aware of the urgency of the situation. The Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, knows overseas aid is an issue to which I am very committed. I hope Ireland will continue to live up to its obligations and responsibilities. It would be appalling if the Irish people donated more than the Irish Government. I welcome the meeting with the NGOs next week but I wonder whether we should not be meeting them sooner.

I too have concerns over militarisation and the amount spent on it. Pakistan is the ambassador's country and I do not interfere with its internal affairs. I accept what the ambassador is saying about the vulnerability of the country but the plight of the people must be the first priority. There is considerable expenditure on militarisation. I read that the Pakistani Government is to divert money from health and education budgets to deal with the catastrophe. I am not sure whether this is correct. Is there no money being diverted from the military budget towards meeting the needs of the people?

I talked to people working on the ground and they referred to the caste system, which is part of Pakistani society. Vulnerable people become even more vulnerable when a catastrophe happens. Having listened to those working with the vulnerable, I note the latter group's needs are supreme. There was a tragedy in 2005. Are there changes in civil society that will eliminate the system whereby the vulnerable will be hit whenever there is a tragedy? One of the positive aspects is the independent international entity that is emerging.

Let us consider the use of helicopters to drop food parcels. Scrambling for food parcels to get something for one's family, as opposed to another's, adds to the indignity of one's circumstances. Let us leave people with their dignity.

My last point is on women. Having listened to people working in Pakistan, I noted how exposed women are in these circumstances.

I welcome the ambassador and the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power. Listening to the ambassador brings home what we have seen in the media, namely, the absolute devastation caused to Pakistan. The list of impacts on pages 3 and 4 of her submission brings home to one the destruction caused, not least to Pakistan's ability to produce food. Agriculture and textiles account for two thirds of Pakistan's €21 billion export industry.

I appreciate the spirit shown by the ambassador in putting forward her case in the past ten days and today. We should note her comment that the Pakistanis are a resilient people who are no strangers to challenges and difficulties. When one puts this disaster in the context of the 2005 earthquake and when one considers Pakistan has borne the brunt of the international fight against terrorism and extremism, one realises there is no doubt that Pakistan has taken a huge hit over recent years. Consequently, it is vital that every country in the world responds appropriately and that Ireland leads the way. It is good to have the ambassador present to give her the opportunity to put forward her case.

There has been a huge response from the Irish and there has already been a payment of €2.5 million. I appreciate all the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, has done to date. Even in these difficult times, if we could increase the sum of €2 million that has already been allocated, it would be regarded as desirable by everybody. This catastrophe is even bigger than the past three or four catastrophes that have occurred globally. Therefore, we should do anything we can to assist.

I thank the Chairman for allowing me attend this meeting because I am not a member of the committee. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, and the ambassador and thank them for their presentations.

We all accept we have an international duty to assist the people of Pakistan. The assistance process has begun and I commend those responsible. The €2 million from the Government and the €2.5 million donated by the public amounts to €4.5 million. This represents a start. I urge the Minister of State to ensure there is more money allocated and that we support the people of Pakistan in their hour of need.

I have concerns about mixing aid and politics. The priority over the coming weeks must be saving lives. There is a political problem in that the West's track record is not particularly good in Pakistan and that general area. We, including the Minister of State, have a trump card because Ireland, with its history, neutrality, impartiality and independence, can take the lead on building trust with the Pakistani people and Government, and also with the people on the ground based on the respect our NGOs have on the ground. I would like to see the Minister of State assert our neutral, independent status because it could be of assistance to people on the ground. Doing so would command immediate respect from those concerned, which is important.

The ambassador thanked the Irish for their assistance. Is she satisfied with the aid responses of Britain and the Untied States? She stated €15 billion will be required over five years. Therefore, €3 billion per year is required over five years. Our own and international media suggest the money that has come in so for is between €500 million and €600 million. There is a great gap. Is this the accurate figure?

Deputy O'Brien referred to the number of Pakistani nationals living in Ireland. They number approximately 5,000. I ask the ambassador to pass on our support to those families in Ireland, who were very supportive of the cause.

Have they been directly involved in aid plans or fund-raising for their own people? Are they linking with their own NGOs or charity groups in Pakistan?

I agree with the Minister of State's view that the global community will be measured by how we respond to the enormous humanitarian needs of the Pakistani people in this time of unprecedented crisis. We must respond on a cross-party basis and we must respond internationally. We have seen the crisis in Haiti. Countries such as Cuba have made a massive contribution in Haiti by way of making doctors available on the ground. This was not recognised by the Irish media for a while. Countries such as Cuba should be respected because it is often amazing what small countries can do in times of crisis. They usually box way above their weight and I commend them on doing so.

I thank the Minister of State and the ambassador for their contributions. I followed most of them on the monitor. I sympathise with the ambassador on the plight of her country. A large number of Pakistanis residing in Ireland want to go home. Employers or those who may have a role in facilitating their temporary return to assist in dealing with the crisis should be encouraged to facilitate them if they wish to take leave of absence. Pakistan would be seen as a strong advocate of western policies and the fight against extremism and terrorism. However, there seems to be an impression that the international community has not responded to the Pakistani crisis like it has responded to other crises in recent years. This may be due to the fact the number of fatalities - at around 2,000 - is lower than those other disasters, notwithstanding the ambassador's claim that the devastation caused is as big as the tsunami and other disasters combined.

We have had so many disasters in recent years. Is there a public weariness with humanitarian disasters? I know Irish people have been very generous and have responded greatly, but there has been one disaster after another. We had the tsunami, the Pakistan earthquake, the disaster in Haiti, earthquakes in China and so on. Has there been an increase in the number of these disasters in the last few years? How does the international community counteract that weariness so that they can get aid into the affected areas?

I join my colleagues in welcoming the ambassador and the Minister of State to our meeting today. I commend the ambassador on the manner in which she has portrayed the difficulties that her fellow citizens are encountering as a result of the flooding. Millions of people in Pakistan have been affected by the flooding. I know the immediate challenge is to get aid, food and shelter to them, but as the ambassador correctly pointed out, the medium term challenge is what to do with the large river basins that have flooded the most fertile area of Pakistan. The extent of the difficulties and soil erosion will not be known until the monsoons are over in three or four weeks.

Ireland has great expertise in agriculture. Apart from the substantial monetary contribution we have made to date, at over €4.5 million, we can provide agricultural expertise to Pakistan. The ambassador pointed out that 70% of the population there is employed in agriculture, so we could provide a much longer term benefit in that area. The Minister of State and the Minister should tap the skills of those at organisations like Teagasc to figure out how we can give long lasting and tangible aid to a country like Pakistan.

Members have given their wide ranging views, so I call on the ambassador to respond.

H.E. Mrs Naghmana A. Hashmi

A couple of themes have emerged from the questions. I will tackle the most difficult question at the outset, which is about why we have a big military budget and a large army. Irrespective of whether a country is big or small, developed or developing, the capacity of a nation to deal with a catastrophe of this nature cannot be judged by the yardstick of its defence and strategic requirements. The defence and strategic requirements of any country depend on its geostrategic location, of the politics of the region, and of the involvement of other nations in that region.

We cannot forget that we still have the unresolved issue of Kashmir on the agenda. We have had three conflicts in this area on our eastern border. We have an ongoing war in Afghanistan over the past 30 years. Many people do not know where history began. Many people think that the world started with the attacks on 11 September 2001, but it did not. Many people do not know that 30 years ago, Pakistan did not invite the Soviets to walk into Afghanistan. Many people do not know that once the Soviets withdrew, it was Pakistan that went on record to tell the world not to abandon Afghanistan. People do not remember that the jihad was not fought by the Afghans alone. The entire world was financing and arming the Mujahideen to defeat the Soviets. Once the Soviets left, Pakistan's representatives tried hard to tell the international community to put together a reconstruction package so that it would not fall into disarray. However, Afghanistan was left completely destroyed, with no economy, no infrastructure and no young men who were not handicapped. That gave rise to the Taliban. Pakistan did not create the Taliban. The rest of the world is not next to this very difficult situation on our western border. We share an 1,800 km border and our economy, our people, our country, our tourism and our image has suffered over the past 30 years due to a problem which has not gone away and which involves everyone, including us.

This is not the time to go into the politics of why we have a large military budget. I ask members to understand the critical importance of the stability and territorial integrity of Pakistan. This is not only vital for the survival of the people of Pakistan, but also for the security of the region and the world at large. There is not the time to go into this today, but I hope I have answered the question.

A point was made about the dignity of the people. I can fully empathise with that. Like many of my countrymen, I have not slept for the last three weeks because it is appalling to see people crawling for food and aid. We only have one way to reach these people. We have a very dramatic geographical relief. It is much easier in the plains. All the bridges and roads have gone in the mountains, and in the plains there are a few islands of trees standing while the villages have been submerged. The only way to reach them is by helicopter or by boat. Unfortunately, we do not have so many boats. All the resources of our navy, air force and army that could be withdrawn have been put into this rescue effort. Afghanistan, China, the US and some Muslim countries have provided us with some boats and helicopters, but it has not been sufficient. Unfortunately, the only way we can reach some of the remote areas is by using helicopters, and if we withdraw them, then even that small bit of hope would be gone.

The response of the international community was very slow at the beginning and that was disappointing. Let us be fair to everybody; nobody could imagine that the floods would transform into this huge humanitarian catastrophe that we have seen today. Unlike an earthquake, where tens of thousands of people perish in a few seconds, this is like a tsunami in slow motion, as the UN Secretary General said. This is a tragedy unfolding in slow motion. It is only now, after two weeks, that the size of the tragedy and the size of the response that is needed is sinking into global consciousness. The initial appeal of the UN Secretary General was for $460 million. The Secretary General came to Pakistan for a week-long visit but left after a few days because what he saw was appalling and he thought it was extremely urgent to tell the international community to revisit its pledges. Pledges of $815 million have been made and, according to my information, approximately 47% of these have been realised. Many of these pledges still need to be realised.

It is only now that the international community is waking up to this, which is why a couple of proposals are now making the rounds. An international donor conference in Pakistan has been proposed, which will probably be held in September; we do not have the dates yet. Another proposal is for an international donor conference under the auspices of the United Nations. Many ideas are being proposed because the international community is realising that this will not involve a once-off donation; it will require a long-term commitment from the international community.

According to my estimate, the Pakistani community here amounts to between approximately 5,000 and 7,000. We have a well-established community here; most of its members are business people, doctors or students. At the time of every disaster they have come forward and donated very generously. They have learned from the experience of the 2005 earthquake. Many NGOs have been formed by local Pakistanis, which are doing very good work in various regions of the country. I cannot reach all members of the community personally but we have had several meetings with community group leaders and briefed them, and approached the community through our website by putting across the message on what is required. According to my information, many Pakistani NGOs do very good work and are fully involved in the embassy's efforts.

I hope I have covered all of the areas.

I thank the ambassador.

I am conscious that time is moving on for members of the committee so I will try to address the issues as briefly as possible. A central question raised by all members who spoke was on the issue of funding. Deputy O'Higgins first raised the matter of €2 million versus €2.5 million. It is very important not to categorise our response in these terms because it is very inaccurate and does not reflect the way our humanitarian response works. I appeal to people not to articulate our response in these terms because our humanitarian response has changed radically over recent years, particularly since the Asian tsunami. If we had not changed our humanitarian architecture to the way it is now, I could be coming in here making an announcement of €10 million or €15 million in funding but I am not doing so because we have done it in a different way.

A number of lessons were learned at the time of the tsunami but the key lesson was the absolute necessity of multilateral agencies, primarily the UN but also UNICEF, the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs and the World Health Organisation, to be able to draw on money immediately. Those agencies drew on the central emergency response fund within hours of this disaster in the same way that the multilateral organisations responding to the Haiti earthquake drew down Irish taxpayers' money within hours of that disaster. We have to look at our national response, and to say €2 million versus €2.5 million is inaccurate.

We also pre-position funding in many other ways. The NGOs and aid agencies in this country received more than €100 million from the Government last year. That was taxpayers' money contributing to the aid agencies. We have also pre-positioned emergency funding with the aid agencies for precisely these circumstances and this money has been drawn down. This is also taxpayers' money. Trócaire drew down that money immediately.

Another lesson learned from the tsunami was on the need to have emergency aid pre-positioned in forward-positioned depots around the globe. In recent years much of our money has gone into these depots and continues to do so, specifically in Brendisi and Accra. Shortly, I will announce our contribution to depots in Panama and Malaysia. We also contribute very significantly to the depot in Dubai. In recent weeks, our humanitarian aid tents came from Dubai; they did not come from Ireland or by cheque but from a very strategic response to disasters arising from the lessons learned. I appeal to people to accept the new infrastructure and architecture of how humanitarian aid is delivered arising from the lessons we have learned.

In three or four weeks, the cameras will be gone from Pakistan and this is when Government aid agencies and programmes, such as Irish Aid, come into their own. The ambassador referred to a donor conference; we will hold a donor conference, which I will probably attend, and we will contribute significantly to it. One cannot categorise our response in a matter of days after a particular tragedy or catastrophe; as the ambassador pointed out, this will take many years to repair, with recovery and then reconstruction efforts. Thousands of bridges, roads and villages were washed away and this will require a global response; only global agencies such as the UN, funded by national governments, will be able to respond to it. When we speak about funding it is important to make these key points.

The initial funding we announced is, on a per capita basis, significantly higher than many other major countries in the world, which I will not name. In my discussions with John Holmes, the head of global relief co-ordination with regard to this catastrophe, he made it clear that this appeal is for only 90 days. It is to feed and provide water and shelter for 90 days. Another appeal for humanitarian assistance will be made after 90 days, separate and completely aside from the donor conference, where funding pledges will be made by Ireland and other countries for the reconstruction and recovery phase, including the replenishing of agricultural areas to which Deputy M.J. Nolan referred, and we do have a role to play in this. There was an immediate response but there will also be short-term, medium-term and long-term responses.

Deputy Finian McGrath raised the use of our brand as a neutral non-aligned country which has an excellent record in responding to disasters and our aid programme generally. At a meeting of the United Nations last Thursday I stood at the podium and stated in the name of Ireland that the global community needs to wake up to this disaster. Since then - not arising from my call but because of many calls - there has been an improved response. The point made by Deputy Finian McGrath is important.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien made an important point on whether the aid is getting through. The answer to the question is that it is not getting through nearly as effectively as it needs to get through. In an emergency or catastrophe of this size, the only real organisation that can provide a scaled-up response to assist millions of people with food, water, medicines and nutrition is the UN, through multilateral agencies such as UNICEF and the World Food Programme. In regard to Deputy O'Brien's question on whether I will be travelling there, yes I will. However, Ministers have been asked to avoid arriving in the first couple of weeks and months in case we end up tripping over ourselves in front of the cameras. That would not feed anybody or provide shelter and water for children, which is very important. That said, in the same way I travelled to Haiti, I intend to visit Pakistan to see how Irish taxpayers' money will be spent.

Deputy Timmins, who has left the meeting, raised a question about the perceived slow response to this disaster as distinct from other disasters. This is a valid issue for which there may be many reasons. One of the main reasons is that the international humanitarian mechanisms are under enormous strain at present. Earlier this year, we contributed significantly in the aftermath of the Haitian earthquake, which was one of the biggest humanitarian crises ever experienced. We also continue to fund many other forgotten emergencies, including in Chad, Niger, the Central African Republic and Sudan. These require monitoring and work from our humanitarian department on an ongoing basis. The public has been exceptionally generous on this occasion. We are in the depths of a deep recession and our combined national response, as I hope I have outlined in my response to Deputy Michael Higgins's question and in the aid agencies' briefing for Deputy O'Brien, has to be holistic and long term. It is my responsibility to chart that in a strategic and comprehensive way over time.

I would like to make a point to the Minister of State. I agree with him because I was in Somalia during the Somalian famine. When the cameras went away, the world shifted its gaze and reduced Somalia to being a lawless space. I entirely agree that it is necessary to stay engaged and I welcome his continued engagement.

He was a tad hypersensitive about the architecture, however. I am well aware of the architecture, and I support it, but I wish to put a point to him which he can take away rather than argue about today. In his reply, he spoke about Haiti, Chad and other countries. Effectively, governments internationally will have to face the fact that the short-term humanitarian consequences of climate change are being carried by aid budgets rather than governments in general. It would be a very different issue if the considerable expertise and intellectual history that exists in, for example, Irish Aid, was able to concentrate on aid issues. The fact of the matter is that climate change is raining down consequences in terms of floods and desertification that are much more serious for governments at a global level. That is the test of global sovereignty and it is why Copenhagen was relevant, as was the refusal of some of the richest countries either to establish limits to their own economies or transfer technologies which would have made a difference. We have our own miserable bureaucratic legacy of closing down good and innovative approaches which would have enabled people to forecast floods, for example.

I cannot but agree with Deputy Michael Higgins. I cited the UN Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, who said that our primary aim now is to prevent a natural disaster from becoming a man-made catastrophe. It is arguable, however, whether this catastrophe is man-made because of climate change.

I thank the Minister and the ambassador for their lengthy briefings on the current situation, which continues to develop. As we know, the floods continue to progress into Sindh province and we will hear more about that. I was worried to hear that the Minister of State was accompanied by his director general, Brendan Rogers. As he left a bit of a gap between "director" and "general", I became concerned that Mr. Rogers, who is so friendly to all of us, has been promoted to general.

I assure the witnesses that we will continue to monitor the situation and work with them. As Deputy O'Brien and others have noted, we do not mix politics and humanitarian aid.

The five year programme for economic and social reconstruction will have to be revisited. I was struck by the fact that 70% of the people of Pakistan are engaged in agriculture, which has been devastated. Even when, please God, we get over the immediate and short-term problems, the issue of agriculture will remain hugely important because it is the bread and butter for the majority of the population. This is why it would be important to set it in motion in parallel. There are a lot of people in Ireland who can help in that regard. That programme should be underway now because, once people have been rescued and the diseases controlled, where do they go? While they will get the initial food and assistance, they will not have any income. That has to be rebuilt and it is important that, as part of the programme, rebuilding should start now. It will take a good deal of planning and development but there will be dangers if it is left until other issues are resolved. It is critical because so many people are engaged in the kind of peasant farming we have experienced in our past. The economic programmes are designed to change that gradually over the longer term but this disaster has brought it to the front of the agenda.

I speak on behalf of all members of the committee when I offer our full support for any actions taken.

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