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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Wednesday, 21 Nov 2012

Democratic Republic of Congo: Presentation

The main item on our agenda is a presentation on the Democratic Republic of the Congo by Mr. Peadar King. I am sure members have heard Mr. King on previous occasions. He is a presenter of the "What in the World" television series and director of KMF Productions. Copies of the sixth series of "What in the World" have been distributed to members to allow them to see its work at first hand. Mr. King's excellent television series continues to contribute to greater public awareness of a range of global issues, including human rights issues. He is joined by Ms Caoimhe de Barra, head of the international division of Trócaire; Mr. Jim Clarkin, CEO of Oxfam Ireland; and Ms Mairéad Ní Nuadháin, head of external relations at RTE. They are here to discuss the Democratic Republic of Congo, which was the subject of the first programme in the sixth series.

"What in the World" is a fine example of public sector broadcasting at its best. It is a tribute to all involved in its production and to RTE. The sixth series raised awareness of stories from across the globe which deserved to be told but were often obscured by other events.

I pay tribute to the team that presented those programmes. For those of us who have an interest in this area, they have heightened the awareness of what is happening in these countries.

And providing us with copies.

Very good. The position in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is one of the most extreme examples of such stories. Its colonial history is appalling and it has had a history of corrupt dictator governments. The instability of the Great Lakes region of Africa of which it is a part and competition for control of its rich natural resources have all combined to put it in the last place on the 2011 human development index. That shows how volatile and serious is the situation there. The figures are shocking. Some 5 million people have died as a direct result of the conflict in the Democratic Republic of the Congo since 1998. Around 500,000 people continue to die there each year mostly from preventable and curable diseases and 50% of recorded deaths are of children who make up 19% of the population. The incidence of rape, especially of women and girls, is not quantified but is enormous and 1.8 million people are displaced within the country, 655,000 in the past seven months alone. The Democratic Republic of the Congo has one of the most serious humanitarian crises in the world and needs a level of public and political awareness and commitment that has been lacking to date in many institutions. I hope that through today's meeting we can contribute to the awareness of the country which, under the right conditions, could be an enormous powerhouse and a regional and global force for peace and stability.

I am pleased to note the European Union Foreign Affairs committee discussed the Democratic Republic of the Congo, among other things, at its meeting two days ago in Brussels, and has invited the High Representative of the Commission to bring forward proposals for a strategic EU approach to the multifaceted security and development challenges facing the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. The committee will have an opportunity at 5 p.m. to discuss the Council's conclusions with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. I am sure the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the Gaza are the two main issues to be discussed. I am pleased we have the opportunity to discuss the Democratic Republic of the Congo following the television production because it has focused in on the matter of human rights and people are interested in this type of documentary.

Before I invite Mr. Peadar King to make his presentation I advise that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Peadar King for a number of reasons. I am parochial in my own way and like myself he is a Clareman and I happen to know his family well. I am sure members will have many interesting questions for him, particularly Senator Norris, who said he happened to be born in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and has a close association with it.

It did not have that laughably ironic title when I was born.

I invite Mr. Peadar King to make his presentation.

Mr. Peadar King

I thank the Chairman for his welcome and his generous comments on the work we do as part of "What in the World" series. As regards whether I am a Clareman, I trade on multiple identities as I live in Cork. When convenient I admit that I trade myself as a Corkman but I am happy to present as a co-Clare person to the committee. Before I begin my presentation perhaps it would be a good idea if each of the panellists were to introduce themselves.

Ms Mairéad Ní Nuadháin

I thank Mr. King. I am Mairéad Ní Nuadháin. I have recently been appointed head of external affairs in RTE. Prior to that I was deputy director of programmes and before that I was commissioning editor and worked with Mr. King on almost all of the previous series. I am proud to be associated with it and all the other co-funders. I pay tribute to all the organisations, some of whom are present, who have contributed to the financing of the series with RTE. It is a product of a great symbiotic relationship between RTE and all the other co-funders. We are proud of it and I am delighted to be here in support of the series.

Mr. Jim Clarken

My name is Jim Clarken and I think I have met most members of the committee previously but it is good to be back again. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the Democratic Republic of the Congo because it is such a critical issue. I am the chief executive of Oxfam Ireland. I congratulate Mr. Peadar King on his work and thank the committee for raising the issue. It could not be more pertinent. We will have an opportunity later to speak about the current position as of this morning, which is very worrying. We have been working in the Democratic Republic of the Congo since 1985.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra

My name is Caoimhe de Barra. I am head of the international division in Trócaire and express my appreciation to the committee for the opportunity to participate in this session. Recently I was in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo and perhaps can give an insight as to the position on the ground.

Mr. Peadar King

I am going to use the word Congo as a shorthand for the presentation because as Senator Norris has pointed out, it is a complete misnomer to represent it as the Democratic Republic of Congo. There is very little democracy and whether it is a republic begs the question. I went to the Congo for the first time in March 2012. I was looking forward to going there because the Congo has a real resonance for Irish people not least because in November 1960 the first Irish peacekeepers lost their lives there. While there I met some of the MONUSCO forces and told them the first casualties that Ireland experienced were in the Congo. I was also speaking with a general within the force who is from India and he said that the first casualties that India encountered were also in the Congo, in the same month and in the same region as the Irish forces lost their lives.

Another reason the Congo has a resonance for me is that I used to teach English. One of the novels on the course was Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad, which has become a metaphor for the whole of the country. Students found it trying. It is a compelling novel, dense and difficult, but the core the seemingly intractable problem at the heart of Africa was accessible to students. A whole range of other books have come on stream recently which give good insights into Africa. The reality from my experience in March is that nothing prepares one for what one encounters in the Congo. As the Chairman has said, we have filmed in more than 30 countries in the six series of "What in the World". It is not that there is some kind of macabre competition between countries for the worst atrocities that is not what it is but equally it is the case that what we experienced and encountered in the Congo was dispiriting and it gripped us in terms of what appeared to be the hopelessness of the situation. When I returned I was determined not just to make the film and to get it on air, in collaboration with RTE, but to try to engage with the public in raising issues.

A couple of weeks ago, I spoke to a number of Senators and Deputies at an informal gathering in Leinster House. Some of the members present at this meeting attended our launch in the Irish Aid centre.

I am not trying to set up one country against another. In other countries we have visited, we have heard terrible stories. Two in particular stand out. I interviewed a woman in Burma. We had entered the country illegally. She described with extraordinary grief the death of her children during her flight from the Burmese military. She was forced to bury them in the forest of the Burmese highlands, then abandon them. One could not but be moved by that. In the recent documentary on Timor-Leste, Mr. Nelson Belo discussed the torture that he experienced at the hands of the Indonesians during the almost 25-year occupation of that country.

Throughout our time making this, we have heard horrific and gripping testimonies of the kinds of inhumanity to which people are subjected. However, the Congo touched me and others working with me in a way that made us determined to try to raise it as an issue. We are grateful, therefore, to have this opportunity to discuss the experience of the Congolese with the committee. It has been some experience.

Some of the critical issues have been highlighted. In one decade, 5.4 million people - this extraordinary figure bears repeating - have been killed in a country that has not seemed to feature in broader international discourse, at least until recently. In July 2011, I watched the news and read the newspapers. At the meeting at which I spoke a number of weeks ago, I referred to an air crash in the Congo in which 45 people were killed in July 2011. The story was covered by all Western media. I do not want to understate the sadness and trauma suffered by the families of those 45 people, but neither should we underestimate the sadness and trauma suffered by the families of the 5.4 million people whose lives have been lost. I was trying to make sense out of why 45 people's lives were spoken about and recorded across the Western media while 5.4 million other people's lives were not. I reached a speculative conclusion - namely, that people who travel in aeroplanes are people like us. We can identify with them. It is difficult for us to identify with people who are killed in the bush and rural areas - the poor, the dispossessed and the disfavoured - and, therefore, we do not respond to their deaths. I do not want to get involved in self-congratulations, but RTE is prepared to find a space within its broadcasting schedule to make available programmes such as ours.

In addition to highlighting the scale of the killings in the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, and the humanitarian crisis, I want to put the situation in context. The Congo is unique in Africa in that it was once the personal fiefdom of King Leopold II. Oireachtas Members are used to travelling back and forth to Brussels for their work. The reality is that the splendour of the administrative capital of the EU is built on the exploitation of the Congo. There is another reality, in that one of the justifications for the First World War was the defence of small nations, yet that small nation was plundering and pillaging a large nation in central Africa. This reality seemingly never registered at the time.

We are discussing a legacy issue from the colonial period and it is important to see the conflict in this light. The conflict in the Congo has been ongoing since the 1870s. It is not a conflict that arose following independence or the recent upsurge in violence.

The crisis has deepened in recent weeks. When we made the film, we based ourselves in Goma. On Tuesday, the M23 militia, which is really an offshoot of the National Congress for the Defence of the People, CNDP, walked into Goma - abandoned by the army and overseen by the UN forces there - and took it over. It is extraordinary that, in the 21st century, a militia can simply walk into a city of 1 million people in the presence of UN peacekeepers with little international outcry against it. There has been some outcry, and I do not want to underestimate what occurred at the European Council of Ministers on Monday. The Tánaiste will attend this committee to discuss that meeting. However, the Chairman alluded to the reality, namely, 50,000 people have fled Goma in recent days in search of personal security.

Sometimes, the numbers can be so great that they lose their impact in terms of what a situation means for individual families, neighbourhoods and so on. Since I circulated the paper to members, the number of people displaced in the Congo has been increasing daily from 2.2 million. This has triggered a blame game about who is responsible. The geopolitical issues are complicated, but there is no doubt about the pivotal role played by Rwanda in the upending and disruption of the Congo. This can go without challenge. Actually, that is probably not true, as every statement is subject to challenge, but Rwanda's role is beyond contestation, in my opinion at least. We must understand this involvement in the context of the Rwandan genocide of 1994. The conflict in the eastern part of the Congo is a direct result of that.

It is a question of legacy issues. There is a reluctance to consider them. There is also a sense that, once a political agreement has been made, the problems are sorted as if the people involved in a conflict situation can automatically transform themselves and rebuild their lives without attending to the terrible traumas that they suffered. Rwanda and, in particular, its President, Paul Kagame, and Government need to be held accountable by the international community for their involvement in the disruption and fragmentation of society in the eastern Congo. Nor is Uganda blameless. It must also be held accountable.

I will move away from the questions of who is responsible and who are the main players and revert briefly to two issues. I hope I am not going over my time.

There were two issues in particular that really struck a chord with us. One of these is the use of rape as a weapon of war. It is quite extraordinary. Ms Margot Elisabeth Wallström, the former United Nations special representative on sexual violence, has called eastern Congo the rape capital of the world. Before we came before the committee, Mr. Clarken and I were discussing a centre in Bukavo which Ms Hillary Clinton visited in 2009 and to which the US gave $17 million. It has treated 30,000 women. We had planned to go there but for security reasons we could not travel. We were really hemmed in at Goma, although those who saw the film know we got to Katanga and Sake. Interestingly, Sake fell to the militia last evening.

The director of the rape centre in Bukavo, who has been nominated for a Nobel peace prize, was subject to an assassination attempt in the past three weeks. The possibilities of who was responsible for the assassination attempt are endless; it could have been the Congolese Government, which does not want the issue highlighted, or the Rwandan militia, etc. It is difficult for a man to discuss rape and its impact, although all rape is brutal. What the women and girls - and to a lesser extent, men and boys - are subjected to was described in the film as being treated "like wood". It was an extraordinary analogy from a worker at Heal Africa.

There is the scale and intensity of rape, as well as its appalling brutality and the normalisation of the act. A study by the Harvard Humanitarian Initiative has described a 17-fold increase in rape in the past five years. It is argued that because it has become so normalised, it has spilled into the civilian population, and the dramatic increase in the incidence of rape is a by-product of the kind of lawlessness and chaos that characterises life in eastern Congo.

I will touch on a second area that we will return to, the use of child soldiers. Child soldiers are recruited across the board by the Congolese army and the various militia, and it is impossible to put numbers on them. There are approximately 30,000 children who are caught up in the conflict in eastern Congo, some as young as seven or eight. They are recruited and fed alcohol and drugs. We interviewed two such child soldiers, and it is interesting that they were brought back to the communities from where they came, and this is where they killed and committed all kinds of atrocities. This was not just in other communities but their own communities. It is known who is responsible for these actions, and they should be brought before the International Criminal Court. There is a big onus on the court to act on the matter.

I am sorry if I have exceeded my time. In making this presentation, there are three real outcomes that I personally would like to see resulting from the meeting. As the Chairman indicated, there is a meeting in March of the chairmen of all the foreign affairs committees which Baroness Catherine Ashton, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, will attend. It is critical that at the meeting, the conflict and humanitarian crisis in the Democratic Republic of the Congo be on the agenda. That platform or vehicle should be used to highlight the appalling atrocities happening in Congo.

My colleagues also have preferred outcomes, including humanitarian relief, and we can come to those later. A second outcome should arise from Ireland's election to the UN Human Rights Council. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade describes the country's objectives in this regard, with three countries mentioned specifically. I would like to see Congo included. I know the position of women is mentioned specifically as an Irish objective, and under that heading the position of women in the Democratic Republic of the Congo can be addressed. As this is such a serious issue, there is a case for the Democratic Republic of the Congo to be included.

Once every ten years there is an opportunity in chairing the European Union - as will happen in the first six months of 2013 - and I would like to see the Congo on the agenda of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and discussed by Heads of State when they meet in Dublin Castle next year. I urge the committee, through its offices and debates in both Houses, as well as representations to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, to see that the issue be attended to as a matter of priority.

A small delegation of this committee will travel to Geneva next month to the UN Human Rights Council and I am sure the issue will be raised. Mr. King's comments are interesting. The rebels marched into Goma last Tuesday and took over the city of 1 million people while 1,500 peacekeepers watched idly. If they had interfered, it would probably have caused more bloodshed in the region and they want to avoid that. In answering the members' questions, will the witness comment on the role of the UN in areas like this, particularly as the UN Security Council has today announced further sanctions on the rebels? How can those sanctions have an effect? The matter seems to be out of control. We are focused on Gaza and the Middle East and this has led to the world's media ignoring Congo. Will the witnesses comment on the role of the UN in this case? Will they comment on the role of President Kabila in the aftermath of last November's elections? What has he done to give rise to the present conditions?

We have a good attendance and many people would like to ask questions. Will members keep their contributions brief and ask questions in their interaction with witnesses?

I thank the witnesses for the really comprehensive report. I have seen the film. We must go further than showing what is going on, although I know some steps have already been outlined. I have some comments relating not just to Congo but other countries in Africa as well, and this comes from me chairing the Irish section of the Association of European Parliamentarians for Africa, AWEPA.

There is a real irony that resource-rich countries perform more poorly than resource-poor countries; this is the "paradox of plenty". I read recently that a company in Congo, Sodimico, sold 30% of its mining stakes via direct negotiation at €30 million. London securities firms valued this at €1.6 billion. There is no doubt that Congo is resource-rich but, as with other African countries, those resources are not being returned to the people. The EU accounting and transparency directives for extractive industries are key and I hope the Irish Government will strongly support them. There should be a strong binding of the directives.

We know that Africa could solve all our problems if its mineral resources were handled in an ethical and efficient way. Allied with that there must be country-by-country and project-by-project reporting and if that does not happen we can whistle "Dixie" and there will be no change in Africa.

We met a delegation of ministers from the Congo recently and I came out of that meeting feeling positive. I heard from them what was happening in the country. They acknowledged the difficulties but there was a belief that things were moving yet now we come here and there is again this disconnect that bears no reality to what is happening on the ground. There is no question, as I said that day, that the Congo shows one of the worst excesses of imperialism. It is just the carving up of Africa for the benefit of Europeans. My point is about the resources.

I invite Mr. King or any of the other witnesses to answer that question. If we have brief answers we can move on to the other members.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra

What we see with respect to the role of the UN peacekeeping forces on the ground is something which is quite common. The UN peacekeeping forces are largely made up of members of armies from countries such as India and Bangladesh and other countries which do not have the resources to create these elite armed forces that are often what is needed to be able to pursue the kind of rebel armies we see here. Part of the problem is that it is very difficult to tackle rebel armies when they are dispersed and they use guerilla tactics. One of the aspects affecting Munesco in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, DRC, is that its mandate directs it to accompany the Congolese army and the Congolese army by its nature is extremely weak and fragmented. The Congolese army received, through a demobilisation and reintegration programme, 220,000 former ex-combatants from different rebel groups and that creates a command and control problem within the army itself. It is important to bear in mind also that the average soldier in the DRC army is paid $30 a month, when actually paid. There are major issues, therefore, around discipline and professionalism within the army and Munesco's role is to accompany that army and not go beyond it.

We believe that Munesco must clearly focus on its role of protecting civilians and that must be constantly emphasised. In the current context in Goma, with 1 million inhabitants, although 50,000 have left, how will those civilians be protected because they do not have any protection? We believe that a reinforcement of Munesco's mandate focusing on civilian protection but also on reinforcing and rebuilding the reform of the security sector is something that is key and the international community, including the European Union, must re-emphasise that work through technical assistance, funding and political support.

I welcome the witnesses. The biggest problem in discussing a major issue such as this one is that people despair about it. The point was made that we had a situation where there was political agreement or that peace had broken out but we know from other areas throughout the world that peace is a process and is not something that happens overnight. That reinforces the view that it must be supported and worked upon. The last time I spoke to the witnesses many positive things were happening in the country. The takeover lately by the M23 rebel group is a major negative but positive things were happening within the country. Large areas of the country had some stability but it has moved on from that.

This issue must come down to the UN. There is a huge UN force in the country but its mandate does not cover this issue. I asked about the rapes on the previous occasion. Rape was taking place approximately 20 km from the UN force but the victims must go through the police first and the police have to ask them questions. By the time they get to the UN force, even if they go in, the awful atrocities have already happened in that area. I agree we must change the mandate but the worst thing that can happen is that we despair. Many positive things can be done.

In terms of all the players, the Chinese and the Americans are in the country. All the imperialists are there and they all have their fingers in different pies. They are all looking after their own resources in regard to this and the only stake we appear to have is that we want to help the people and ensure they are not exploited. That is the positive role we can play. There must be a role we can play whether it is in Europe, the UN or wherever but the mandate must change. We have seen the atrocities that happened in other regions in the past but I cannot get my head around the numbers involved here, namely, 5.4 million killed, 2.2 million displaced and the number of rapes. The numbers are too great. All the different aid organisations are working in that atmosphere and there is a responsibility on all of us not to despair and to realise there are solutions. The racists would say there is a role for the white man to move into the country and sort it out but we know from its history about the role of the white man, including King Leopold and the Belgians, in creating much of this conflict.

Oxfam is working in the DRC and therefore Mr. Clarken might want to comment on that aspect.

Mr. Jim Clarken

We cannot afford to despair. It is up to us not to despair. What has been and is happening in the DRC is horrific and there is a huge onus on us to re-energise ourselves to ensure there is a focus on that. The Deputy is right when he says the figures are staggering. A total of 5.4 million people are involved. It is the biggest conflict in the world since the Second World War and it is not reported in any newspaper or any news programme with the exception of great pieces of work being done on it elsewhere. It should be an issue we are dealing with and speaking about all the time.

To update the committee on the current position, as of this morning the town of Sake has also fallen. This particular militant group is now moving further and it is a real concern. Approximately 120,000 additional people are displaced. To be technical about it, they are being pushed out of internally displaced camps; they are internally displaced within the Congo. They now have nowhere to go. They are moving across the border into Rwanda and other places. This is a crisis that is getting worse but it has been at that shocking level for many years. Occasionally, it raises its head and then dips again and collectively internationally we forget about it. That is not acceptable.

We must put pressure on here at home for it to be raised. To be fair, the Government, Irish Aid and others have been very supportive, and members of this committee are very interested in the issue. Holding the EU Presidency and within the Council we will have an amazing opportunity to do more and to raise it in a number of other fora but we must put extreme pressure now on the parties to the conflict to ensure there is humanitarian access. We must be able to save lives today and tomorrow. We were speaking with staff on the ground this morning who are in a precarious position. They are anxious to stay and to continue to work but unless external pressure is put on all the parties to the conflict they will not have that access and those people will be in a very difficult position.

Mr. Clarken referred to people fleeing to Rwanda. What about the role of Rwanda in aiding the M23 rebels?

Mr. Jim Clarken

What is important now is that we ensure that anybody who flees is protected, and there is an international responsibility on the Government of Rwanda and on the Government of the Congo. We talk about other actors such as the UN and so on but there is a democratically elected Government in the Congo which has responsibilities also. Its military has responsibilities. We must put pressure on them and we can do that from outside and from international fora to ensure that people are protected and that we move beyond this constant cycle of crisis upon crisis which sees people attempting to rebuild some semblance of a life while in a camp only to have to move from there to the next place.

It is going to require a concerted effort. In other parts of the world when one ignores a crisis in a country, as happened in Somalia, things just get worse until one gets to a shocking situation where we had a famine there last year. As an international community we cannot do that. We must continue to focus, to put pressure where it is needed and keep this effort going. Right now, we have a big job to do to keep people alive. I urge members to make sure that we put pressure in the right places to support that kind of work.

I thank our guests for addressing this and I congratulate them on their frankness. It is important such matters are spoken about bluntly in order to get to the nub of the problem. We all have constituents from the Congolese community and they tell us about these matters. Sometimes we do not believe them and we think they are exaggerating but they are not. The film "Black Hawk Down" gives an indication of what happens when law and order break down completely, as has happened. Deputy Sean Crowe referred to the mining companies and the American and Chinese interests in the country. They have been there for many years and the existence of resources is a problem. The international community must find means to put responsibility on outside interests, which are profiting by their presence there, to ensure some semblance of law and order is restored for the benefit of people living there.

I am loth to criticise the UN but it has failed to deal with this kind of situation. Some years ago in Srebrenica, when safe havens were being defended, the UN stood down. It was suggested the UN did not have the heavy armaments required so NATO came in to do the job. This situation is slightly different. The international community is loth to get involved militarily in the same way because of the experience in Rwanda. The UN has the same problem. Some means must be found to put as much pressure as possible on international companies working and making profits there. They are from all over the world, not just China, the United States and Belgium. That should be a priority.

There is no doubt the existing governmental structures have broken down and people are not carrying out their responsibilities. How can anyone expect the police force to carry out its functions if it is not being paid? Members of the police force have no loyalty to anyone, nor can they if they cannot afford to live. We should use whatever influence we can. The Tánaiste will speak to the commitee later. The mining companies are very wealthy. In an adjoining country, we saw resources are readily available to the international community in the mining business but resources are not available to the same extent to facilitate people in towns where there are no roads, no footpaths, no public lighting and no sanitation services. In that climate, it is not possible to have a semblance of order. It does not work. The point raised by Deputy Crowe is valid.

Mr. Jim Clarken

Briefly, to answer Deputy O'Sullivan and Deputy Durkan, we must ensure that companies are signed up to the protocols that exist, namely, the OECD protocols and the EU protocols. We must put pressure on those companies. Some international companies are also engaged in this country. The protocols exist; we just need to exert sustained pressure to ensure that a fair and transparent system is in place for the extractives industry in particular dealing with countries such as the Congo.

I congratulate the collaboration between Mr. King and RTE on the series and, in particular, the recent programme. RTE often gets abused unfairly. In this instance we have a strong representation of public service broadcasting at its best. The programme raised awareness for me as a member of this committee of the complexity and extent of the problem in the Congo and the region in general. If I was not aware of the complexity of the issue as a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs where does it leave the ordinary citizen in terms of their understanding?

The Congo is considered by some to be a democratic country but it takes more than parliamentary and presidential elections to make a democracy. Is there any one individual or a number of people from all sides of the conflict in whom the witnesses would have confidence, who would see the bigger picture, and who would drive peace and reform from within? It has been stated time and again when we are discussing international conflicts that we as westerners and Europeans cannot impose a solution on a situation such as this. Deputy Crowe referred to the fact previously. We can use our influence and we have a considerable moral responsibility in the European Union in particular given the colonial past. Who is shouting "Stop"? We have a country that is mineral-rich that has an enormous amount of resources at its disposal. The country could be extremely rich and could have a diverse, strong and sustainable economy which could provide resources and opportunities for all of its citizens. Do the witnesses have hope that an individual or group of people in Congolese society could turn the situation around?

Where does the International Criminal Court stand on what is happening in the Congo? There has been a resounding silence from the international community and transnational bodies on the issue, which is disgraceful. It is scandalous. I noted in the written presentation the situation with regard to child soldiers. We have come across it all too frequently in our examination of conflicts across the world. It struck me that it is believed that 30,000 child soldiers are involved in the conflict, 30% to 40% of whom are young girls. That concerns me, not just for the present but for the future as well. We have talked about the dehumanisation of women by rape and now we are talking about young girls being dehumanised and exposed to all of the excesses of conflict. If we are to have any confidence in the future of the Congo, while it might sound like a cliché, it will involve the young people and empowering women. I am seriously concerned about the future if 10,000 to 15,000 young girls have been co-opted into various armed forces.

We will hear next from Senator Norris because I know he is under time pressure.

I greatly appreciate that. We have our own domestic problems here and we are dealing with the Personal Insolvency Bill in the Seanad.

I congratulate Mr. Peadar Kirby, his team and RTE on their courage. We saw them negotiating with the local commander and travelling on roads where they could quite easily have been killed. There as an element of extraordinary personal valour and courage evident. I was interested in the reference to Heart of Darkness. The most extraordinary moment in the novel is when Kurtz comes out of the very centre of the heart of darkness and utters that extraordinary phrase “The horror!”. It is strange that such a beautiful, rich, magnificent country should evoke a response of horror but it is not surprising when one considers that the numbers of those murdered in the genocide are roughly equivalent to what happened to the unfortunate Jews of Europe. There is no doubt that it is another Holocaust. There is a European dimension through King Leopold and the appalling things that happened in that regard.

It is because it is so rich that this has happened to it.

I accept what José Ramos-Horta said. This does not happen just because of the existence of this wealth. One must also consider the evil of people. One has to deal with the people. The mineral wealth is not responsible; the greed of people is. One has to change and challenge that psychology.

In King Leopold's day it was rubber. Now it is coltan and molybdenum. It was copper in Katanga. Can we have a list of the companies involved so that we can help to persuade some groups, and even states, to disinvest? It is helpful to have those facts. We will all do as much as we can in fighting the evil in the Congo.

Mr. King mentioned Joseph Conrad, but he had a colleague, Roger Casement. As Irish people, we can urge our Government to follow the individual lead of Casement. It was he who highlighted the horror on the international stage and, despite the objections and reservations of the European establishment, forced it into the public consciousness. Once it was forced there it was eventually addressed.

My first question is about the UN mandate. Does it need to be rectified? I think that, obviously, it does. Will that make any great difference? With regard to rape, I was glad Mr. King mentioned men and boys as well. I heard on a radio broadcast a young man speaking about the experience of being raped. The experience is significantly psychologically different, although parallel, from that of women because of the status of men in society. There is unbearable shame and agony even in trying to talk about it because it is seen as such a disgrace and horror. Of course it is so for women as well, but there is a difference.

I have a motion in the Seanad about sexual violence in conflict. I would be grateful for any facts Mr. King can give Senators, through me. I will give them to my colleagues. Mr. King mentioned the 30,000 women who have been treated in the centre in Bukavo. Again, it is interesting that there was no mention of men. He also referred to a Harvard study. If we could have some reference for that it would be helpful.

Mr. King mentioned Mr. Paul Kagame and the involvement of Rwanda. How can we get him to the International Criminal Court? I do not think the court itself has a mechanism to arraign people and summon them to appear. I think cases have to be reported. How can we, as a small country - perhaps using our EU Presidency - have an impact in bringing him before the court, or at least in indicting him and showing some degree of condemnation? It is astonishing that the people of what is probably the richest country in the world, in natural resources, are the poorest in the world.

The dynamics are similar to what is happening in the Middle East, where there is also European involvement. We solved our problem at the expense of the Palestinians. There is similar dehumanising and neglect unless there is a flare-up of violence. I stand with Trócaire on the question of goods from the illegal settlements being imported into this country. I am in possession of opinion from senior counsel in Ireland and counsel in Britain to indicate there is no impediment in this country to declaring an embargo on those goods. It is not illegal. I hope to be back at this meeting in time to ask the Tánaiste about this and present that legal opinion to him.

That is a separate issue, Senator Norris, but I will let you away with it.

Thank you, Chairman. We must show solidarity when Members of the Dáil are attacking Trócaire.

I welcome Mr. Peadar King and I wish to take him up on some of his points. As a journalist, he poses the question whether the Democratic Republic of the Congo is democratic or a republic. As parliamentarians we must recognise that this is an emerging democracy. Joseph Kabila has been elected in two consecutive elections and the people, therefore, have spoken.

I start on that point because we must treat the Government in Kinshasa seriously as a player in the ultimate solution to the problem. As a media person, Mr. King will know the world does not focus on the Congo to the extent it should. If a settler's child is killed in Israel and a thousand Palestinian children are killed in the occupied territories, how will the western media balance those two events? Hurricanes may be killing thousands of people in places like Cuba, Haiti and Jamaica but the media will run with news of the few boats that have been wrecked on the coast of the United States. Journalists might ask themselves why this is so.

I have a vested interest in the Congo. I lived there on two occasions, in 1970 and 1974, and I travelled extensively throughout the Congo. The film brought back the beauty of the Congo for me. There are key players in this. The Congo is a vast country of about 71 million people. The region where the conflict exists is a tiny proportion of a very underdeveloped country. Infrastructure in the Congo is practically non-existent outside certain areas. The concentration is in the Guma and Kiva areas because of the mineral resources. It is not only because of the mineral resources, but also because of the adjoining neighbours. The key players on this occasion are Rwanda and Uganda.

Rwanda has had a man from its government elected to the UN Security Council for 12 months. Mr. King mentioned that the Security Council has taken a position. Rwanda is playing a very important, dangerous and destructive role there. To state the problem simplistically, concluding the geopolitical issues requires the governments of the Congo, Rwanda and Uganda. The Ugandans are still chasing Joseph Kony in the Gulu district of northern Uganda and Zaire. We can reassure ourselves with the fact that Charles Taylor has been found guilty in Liberia and sentenced to 50 years' imprisonment. He was also found guilty of offences related to two issues that have been raised today, which are the kidnapping of soldier brides and the recruitment of child soldiers. There is already international recognition that it is a crime to kidnap women to turn them into brides of soldiers. I thank Mr. King for bringing these issues to our attention again. We had known about them but it is helpful to be focused on these issues occasionally.

At its November meeting, the Foreign Affairs Council seems to have adopted progressive positions and to understand the role Europe must play in providing assistance.. Whom did the Council assist? We sit here and talk about the white man and the United Nations and so on. Of course they have roles to play. As the world's political dynamic unravels it is important to recognise the responsibility of Arab countries for policing, monitoring and engaging in human rights in the Arab countries, and they are doing so very successfully. We must also recognise the role of the African Union. All of Africa is not in turmoil as this region is. The African Union has a key and, I hope, a leadership role to play in bringing the key players of the Congo and Rwanda, Uganda and the international agencies of the United Nations together.

I thank Mr. Peadar King and Ms Mairéad Ní Nuadháin for their thought-provoking film.

Mr. King and Ms Ní Nuadháin, what co-operation did you get in making the programmes from government, local government and non-governmental agencies working in the Congo? What was the public reaction to the programmes? If there are to be further programmes, public reaction is very important and it is important to gauge that reaction.

What future plans are there for continuing the series, given financial constraints and so forth?

Ms Mairéad Ní Nuadháin

I can answer that by repeating what I said earlier. RTE is very proud of this series and of all the series we have done to date with Peadar King. Not to take the limelight off Peader, but we have done other series. We collaborated with Irish Aid on a number of series a couple of years ago called "Far Away Up Close". There were different presenters for the series. To echo what Deputy Eric Byrne said, some of those series focused on some very positive stories out of Africa. It is not all war and turmoil. There are some very good business stories, for example, emanating from certain parts of Africa. We also did "What in the World?". We have done several programmes under the multicultural banner, such as "Welcome to my World". There was also the radio series that preceded this one by many years which was presented by Rodney Rice. It was transmitted by RTE but I think it was completely funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. There have been some great collaborations over the years. I pay tribute to the other agencies, charities and NGOs that co-fund this series with RTE and Irish Aid. It is a good collaboration.

Peadar has gone on record as saying that he has started the seventh series, so it appears we have commissioned it. In advance, I thank everybody who has promised money. Perhaps I should put the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on the spot and also thank it. We would be happy to do another series. When we get figures for a television audience we can say that those people watched that programme. If one can reach 70,000 to 90,000 people with a programme such as this, it is a tremendous number of people to engage in that story and one can be sure they are watching it with interest. That is a great testament to the series.

The public reaction has been good.

Ms Mairéad Ní Nuadháin

That is one metric. One can see the next morning how many people watched a programme, the age groups and the different socioeconomic groups. One can tell with definition who watched it. The RTE player is a great mechanism in this regard. The programme stays up on the player for 21 days. When people ring to ask for a DVD of the programme one can advise them to watch it on the RTE player on their computer. It is a perfect picture. The Congo episode was on it until yesterday. We can measure the number of people who watch it on the player. We can also measure the number of people who record and watch a programme later. We can tell with absolute accuracy who watches every programme.

Mr. Peadar King

I am delighted to work with RTE on this. The first programme we made was in 1999, so I have been doing this for over a decade. Like Mairéad, I acknowledge the contribution Irish Aid makes to funding this series. It has made that contribution from the beginning in 1999. I had a meeting with officials of the Irish Aid section in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade this morning to discuss funding for the next series. I hope we get it, but that remains to be seen. I also acknowledge the contribution the non-governmental organisations make to the funding of this series. Finally, we also get cross-denominational support from religious congregations, mainly Catholic but also Methodist, Church of Ireland, the Baha'i and the Presbyterian churches, to whom I spoke a few days ago. They are considering getting involved as a funder. What is really interesting is that the trade unions are now coming on board as funders. The Public Service Executive Union, PSEU, contributes to it and the Services Industrial Professional and Technical Union, SIPTU, has committed to making a financial contribution to the next series. There were 58 funders of the last series. That is a strong collaboration across a range of groups who are coming together with a concern for and an interest in what is happening in the global south. I am very pleased to be part of that process, and long may it continue.

Are there any further questions? Does anybody wish to comment on Deputy Nash's questions?

Mr. Peadar King

If you have time, Chairman, the three of us might make final comments on a few issues that were raised. Deputy Eric Byrne spoke about the elections. Of course, elections have taken place, most recently last November. There are questions about the veracity of the elections. Various international bodies question the legitimacy of the elections and the process under which they take place. The difficulty is that if one challenges the legitimacy of the elections, whoever is elected does not have the legitimacy of the people's vote. There is that mismatch between the governing parties, the elected President and the people. It is a form of democracy. It is a limited and, in my view, flawed form that is operating. It was in that context I made the comments about the democratic republic.

To refer to Deputy Crowe's opening comments about positive things, I take the point he made. Clearly, in every situation there are developments that must be acknowledged. Equally, however, unless we recognise the misery and harshness of life for the civilian population as our starting point and unless we confront that in all its awfulness, we will not work towards building the type of positive outcomes to which the Deputy aspires. The statement that I made today, and perhaps even the statement I was making in the film, reflects that desire to draw public attention to the bleakness of the current situation with a view to garnering public attention and some type of determination to try to build and move away from that bleak situation.

Senator Norris has left but his comments about Roger Casement were well made. There is a reference to Roger Casement in the film. Casement's report from the Congo prior to 1902 is regarded as the first human rights report ever written. Irish people should be proud that one of the great iconic figures from Irish history was the author of one of the first human rights reports. His report is available online if anybody wishes to see it.

Members made a number of other comments, but I do not have the time to address them. I hope that is sufficient.

I invite Mr. Clarken and Ms de Barra to respond.

Mr. Jim Clarken

We might have started something today, as well as continuing things we have been talking about for some time. It is really important that Peadar and RTE are raising awareness of this outside of our sector, as it were, in addition to ourselves as agencies involved on the ground. Now, there is an opportunity for the committee, as public representatives, to raise the ante both at home and at European level. To respond to Deputy Eric Byrne's comments, there are processes in place. There is an international conference on the Great Lakes region. It needs greater focus and far greater African Union engagement is required. It is not just about the UN or the EU but also about the African Union, supported by external support where possible. Perhaps it could be a special envoy or other such focuses. If we raise this to a level on the international agenda that is sufficient to garner that type of interest and commitment, we can make a great deal of progress. However, there must be a concerted effort to do that.

Ms Caoimhe de Barra

I will try not to repeat what my colleagues said. In response to Deputy Nash's point, there is a bigger picture and we have heard a little about the regional dynamics today. It is important to recognise that this is a complex and protracted conflict and that the issues in the conflict are at local, national and international levels.

The causes of the complex emergencies and conflict must be understood in their totality because they have to do with the distribution of power and resources within the country and beyond its boundaries. Therefore, any international approach must be comprehensive. In the past billions of dollars have been spent on the Democratic Republic of Congo trying to achieve a technical solution to what is a complex political problem. I agree with my colleagues that it is important the UN's mandate is revised and strengthened but that will be extremely difficult because of the political issues at the heart of the UN system. As we are aware, the UN Security Council finds it difficult to take hard decisions and there is also the allocation of resources from the most wealthy countries. It is difficult for those countries to send military resources into places where they will be in danger and which might not be popular among their own populations. The UN mandate, if strengthened, will make a difference but not the total difference. It needs to be supported. The role of the African Union is incredibly important because it can have credibility where external forces lack such credibility.

We have talked about the Government and the Government as a player. It is true that the Government is Kinshasa-centred and does not have credibility. It barely has control or reach beyond Kinshasa but, nonetheless, the Government was elected. The elections did not have great credibility but this is the Government that is in place. We have to look at some of the positive elements of what is happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo and put some credence and energy into trying to help those move forward. There will be elections at Senate level and, I hope, at provincial and district levels in the next two years. Some of the key issues that need to happen to help the elections would be a review of the national electoral commission to ensure the fundamental structures are in place to enable future elections to be held on a fair basis.

There are issues around the immediate humanitarian needs. Before the crisis erupted in the past week it was estimated that $721 million was needed in response to existing humanitarian needs. That amount will have multiplied within the past five to seven days. What is harder to generate is funding for recovery after the first phase of response. In terms of messages, it is important to bear in mind that while there is a need to step up political engagement through the avenues open to Ireland, we can step up the resources that Ireland can leverage from other multilateral sources where it has a stake, not only for the immediate response but the long-term recovery.

My final comment is on the role of women. I agree with all the statements on the importance of women's voices and women's power; and empowering women is fundamental to recovery in the Democratic Republic of Congo. When I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo a week and a half ago I engaged with women and men who were encouraging women to see themselves as other than second class citizens, as people who have a right to make a decision within the home and within the community and who also have a right to contribute to decision-making at a local and national level. It is interesting to note that the Democratic Republic of Congo has just passed a gender parity law which is now on its Statute Book and which technically places the Democratic Republic of Congo ahead of many countries in the more developed world. However, its implementation is critical. This is an issue I wish to put on the table for future consideration. How can Ireland support women and gender equality in the Democratic Republic of Congo in a way which will transform politics in that country?

I thank Ms de Barra. She is correct in saying the Government has a huge responsibility in this area. An EU election observation mission at the elections in November 2011 stopped short of saying the elections were not credible. At the same time it hopes the new Government will put in place measures for the forthcoming elections.

I refer to a meeting which Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan and I attended with the Minister for the Environment and Wildlife of the Congo when he visited Ireland two weeks ago. He referred to his country's role and trying to attract international trade. His country has huge resources, whether hydroelectric dams, agriculture tourism, wildlife game parks and so on but are all arms of government working well in all departments or has the Government almost stopped working, given that the rebels are working against the Government and calling for the President's resignation?

Ms Caoimhe de Barra

We have to recognise that it is a very fractured political context and a fragmented society. There are dozens of Government ministries. It is difficult to co-ordinate in a context where the ministries can barely function and support their own needs. For example, when Trócaire and local NGO partners went to discuss the gender parity law, the ministry for gender was so short of resources that it was barely able to do work it is mandated to do. That is common across many of the ministries. However, it is important to recognise that no government is homogenous, there is a will to reform and make progress among elements of government. Much of the political analysis is about identifying the arms of government with which we can work.

Deputy O'Sullivan opened up the discussion by talking about mining companies and mineral resources. She mentioned initiatives such as the European initiative, which it is important for Ireland to support. There are other initiatives such as the listing of companies on the New York stock exchange. To be listed one needs to be transparent in respect of the payments one makes. Sometimes it is difficult to identify the companies that work in context such as the Democratic Republic of Congo. For example, a contract was recently taken over by a company which appears to be based out of South Africa for all exploration in Lake Albert and nobody can get access to the MOU between the Government and that company. We work with local communities who are monitoring the impact on their environment of that company's work but it is incredibly difficult to have accountability without access to information. Working on access to information at a macro level would be supportive to people at community level in countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo.

We have had a very interesting debate with most members contributing to it. On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Peadar King and his guests for their contributions. The meeting was worthwhile. Given what is happening in Goma the meeting was timely. It is important that such difficult humanitarian situations are not forgotten. The committee will not forget them and will continue to monitor the situation in respect of developments. He mentioned how we could highlight the issue and continue to do so. I reassure him we will continue to monitor the situation, particularly later this afternoon when the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade appears before the committee to report on the EU Foreign Affairs Council meeting. We are preparing the agenda for Chairs meeting which will be held in Dublin next year. Obviously we have to consult with the troika and the EU on that matter. It is something I would support. A small number of members are travelling to Geneva next month to attend the UN Human Rights Council when we will certainly raise the issue. I thank the delegates for appearing before the committee. I ask them to keep up the good work of highlighting issues in this area. It is people such as the delegates and the committee who can continue to highlight the inequalities and human rights abuses in these areas. The Oireachtas is a powerful area in this regard. It is good we can work together.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.30 p.m. and resumed in public session at 4.55 p.m.
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