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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Wednesday, 16 Apr 2014

Situation in Syria: Dr. Thomas Pierret

On behalf of the joint committee I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Thomas Pierret and thank him for appearing before the committee. For many years the members of the committee have observed the situation in Syria as it has continued to deteriorate. For those watching from a distance it seems the situation there is bad and getting worse than when the conflict began more than three years. Sadly, a settlement does not appear any nearer.

The format of the meeting is an address by Dr. Thomas Pierret followed by a question and answer session from the members. If any clarification is required afterwards we will facilitate that. Without further ado I invite Dr. Thomas Pierret to make his presentation. Usually presentations take 15 minutes or thereabouts.

Dr. Thomas Pierret

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting me to speak about the Syrian conflict. I will briefly address some key aspects of the conflict through an assessment of the possible scenario and policy options western countries are faced with in their dealings with the Syrian war. I think the dominant position among western governments has been that the solution to the conflict should be a diplomatic one, a political one and, in principle, this is an opinion I support. As I will explain, diplomacy is faced with serious limits and I do not think there are many positive prospects in that respect.

What we witnessed earlier this year was the failure of the Geneva II conference which was supposed to discuss power sharing in Syria, political transition, the establishment of the transitional body, including members of the regime and excluding Bashar al-Assad himself, including the positions that members of the transitional body should enjoy full prerogatives. This transition plan was outlined by the Geneva I communique in June 2012.

It is fair to say that the talks in Geneva II failed for a very simply reason, namely, the Syrian regime refused to speak about power sharing and political transition. Basically it wants to keep Assad in power. What the regime is preparing now is another political transition and, as the committee is aware, that is the re-election of Bashar al-Assad in a no-contest election later this year.

The failure of the Geneva talks has taught us many lessons. I will highlight two important lessons from this failure. It has shown that the core problem in Syria is a domestic one. We often hear that Syria is in a proxy war between regional powers with Iran on one side and Saudi Arabia and Qatar on the other side.

This is part of the picture, but I think that the root cause of the problem is domestic. It is a problem of power sharing, or more exactly, a lack of power sharing. We have a ruling clan, the Assad family, their cousins and their cronies, who oppose any kind of deal that would sideline them, even if that deal keeps elements of the regime in power, as was proposed by the Geneva I communiqué. I do not think this is essentially a proxy war. It is a domestic conflict that has attracted the intervention of foreign actors because both contenders have sought the support of foreign powers. This is important because we often hear that the easiest way to solve the conflict will be to start by putting an end to the rivalry between Gulf monarchies and Iran. Although that would certainly be a positive development, I do not think it would be enough to solve the conflict, because as long as we do not address that core problem of power sharing and political transition in Syria, the conflict will remain.

Another lesson of the failure of the Geneva talks is the negative role played by the allies of the regime of Bashar al-Assad, namely, Iran and Russia. The Geneva I principles were supported by western countries, Gulf monarchies, Turkey and even Russia back in 2012. However, over the last month Russia has been de facto backtracking on its initial support for a transition and coming much closer to the position of the Syrian regime, which is to keep things as they are with some cosmetic reforms. Iran is even clearer. It rejected Geneva I from the outset and has clearly aligned itself totally with the position of the Syrian regime, which is political status quo rather than political transition.

I do not think any change can be expected in the short or even mid term from Assad and his allies, because at the moment the military situation is relatively favourable to them, although it is not favourable as common wisdom has it. The regime is confident that it can survive and it does not see why it should abandon through negotiations the power it can keep by using force. It is that simple. Even if the regime suffers significant military setbacks in the future, which I would not exclude, there is a Plan B, which would be to establish a small state on the coast, which is the historical stronghold of the Alawite community to which Bashar al-Assad belongs. Assad would remain the president of something, instead of ending up in a jail in the Netherlands, which would probably happen if he lost power. That would also be a possible solution for Iran and Russia. They have gone so far in their support for Assad, by providing his regime with unlimited diplomatic, financial and military support, that they would certainly be marginalised in the post-Assad order. It is my conviction that an elected regime in Syria would be quite inherently hostile to Iran and Russia for their role in the current conflict. The idea that Iran and Russia could be convinced of changing their minds by being offered some guarantees about the survival of their interests in post-Assad Syria is problematic in two respects. First, guaranteeing the interests of certain countries in another country is something that has its roots in a colonial context. It is normally a part of the way we do international relations today. It is also unrealistic. Who would guarantee these interests in Syria? Western countries are too little involved in the conflict to be able to offer such guarantees if they were willing to provide them. Unfortunately, both Iran and Russia would be happy with the partition of Syria if that is the condition to serve their interests, just as Russia has been encouraging the partition of Ukraine recently for exactly the same reason.

I would like to say a word about a measure that is frequently associated with a political solution, which is the idea of an arms embargo on both sides. On paper, that looks like a good idea, but we should keep two things in mind. First, if the policy adopted by western states was to pressure their regional allies into ceasing to supply rebels with weapons, we would have no guarantee that the other side would do it, and that Iran and Russia would do likewise. Second, Assad is sitting on enormous stockpiles of weapons, which he has accumulated over decades. The Syrian regime runs military factories which are still functioning, so even if an embargo was implemented by both sides, the Assad regime would retain a major advantage. It would be able to keep fighting for a long time, whereas the rebels would probably be short of weapons. That would provide the Syrian regime with the opportunity to achieve a victory over the opposition, or at least to think it could achieve such a victory. Therefore, it is likely that an arms embargo could lead to an escalation rather than de-escalation, even if that sounds counter-intuitive. The rebel groups that would suffer from such an embargo would be the most moderate groups, because the radical groups - especially those linked to al-Qaeda - do not receive state support because they are overtly hostile to regional states, including Saudi Arabia and Qatar. They get their military supplies from shadowy, clandestine private sources which are not affected by any diplomatic measure on the part of western countries. Therefore, an arms embargo would favour radicals over moderate rebels.

To sum up, in my view the prospects of a diplomatic solution are dim for all of these reasons. I would like to address an alternative solution which has been evoked in western circles over the past month, which is simply to repair ties with Assad. It is not really public policy, but we know that some European intelligence services have been resuming visits to Damascus. The idea was that some rapprochement with Assad could help restore stability in the region and fight Islamic radicalism. My opinion is that this policy is immoral, unrealistic and counter-productive. It is immoral because it basically rewards one of the most brutal campaigns of mass murder in the post-Cold War era. Whatever crimes are perpetrated by members of the opposition, and these are crimes are a reality, there is no equivalence with the crimes of the regime in terms of scale and responsibility. I would like to refer the committee to the words of Navi Pillay, who is the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, who said recently that the regime was responsible for most human rights violations in Syria. This involved chemical attacks, summary execution on an industrial scale, deliberate starvation of certain neighbourhoods, and barrel bombs over Aleppo over the last five months, killing several dozen people almost every day. It is unrealistic because it is unrealistic to believe that Assad could win in the sense that he could retake the entire Syrian territory, stabilise and police it. It is based on an inaccurate reading of military developments. At the moment Assad is consolidating his hold over his strongholds in the centre of the country, but at the same time he is suffering setbacks in the north, east and south of Syria. I do not think he will be able to reconquer the whole country for the simple reason that he is lacking loyal manpower.

This has important consequences. It means that when he wants to reconquer a region - this is what he wants to do - it is usually by starving the people and bombing them for a long time. Usually this generates a massive flux of refugees and this is why we have a vast refugee crisis in the region at the moment. He rarely retakes a region without first forcing the inhabitants to go. Given his lack of manpower he is heavily reliant on Shia Islamist foreign fighters. These are pro-Iranian militia men recruited in Lebanon and Iraq. They play a key role. Every strategic victory won by Assad in the past month was won thanks to the support of these people. This is a concerning development for the future because it means that regime victories, far from bringing stability, actually lead to a form of foreign occupation by people who have a different religion from the majority of Syrians. This is a recipe for long-term instability.

I will comment briefly on the issue of counter-terrorism because this is what drives intelligence operatives in the West to resume ties and co-operation with the Assad regime. Believing that Assad is an ally in the fight against Islamic extremism is like believing one can fight fire with the help of a pyromaniac. Assad has a terrible record. He has encouraged and co-operated with jihadi networks in Iraq in 2003 and in Lebanon after 2006. After the uprising started in 2011 he deliberately encouraged the emergence of jihadi groups by releasing dozens of radical Islamic activists from jail. This has been widely documented. We have dozens of profiles of radical insurgent leaders who were in jail in Syria until the spring of 2011 and who were then released.

Assad needs these people to survive. He needs them to be seen not for what he is, a mass murderer, but as a potential partner in the fight against terrorism. He knows that the most extreme rebel groups do not receive State support for the reasons I have explained and because, basically, they excommunicate, for instance, Gulf monarchs. These people do not receive the sophisticated weapons that could defeat the regime. We know their mere presence among the ranks of the rebels discourages many western states from supporting the opposition. The most extreme elements among the opposition, like the so-called Islamic State of Iraq and al-Shm, actually devote more energy to fighting other rebels than fighting the regime itself.

It is time for me to stop now but since I am among policymakers I will outline what I believe European Union countries, including Ireland, should do. I believe diplomatic efforts should not cease but we must be aware of their limits and we must be aware of the fact that thus far they have failed to improve the situation, they have failed to protect civilians and this is likely to continue. This is why we should explore other solutions. Humanitarian aid is important but healing the injured and burying the dead while the massacre goes on is slightly hypocritical. At least there should be some way to enforce an end to aerial bombing, especially so-called barrel bombings, which occur on a daily basis and wipe out whole blocks in cities such as Aleppo. These are unacceptable. I realise there is strong reluctance in the west towards ideas like a no-fly zone. I am in favour of it but I recognise this is not a widely accepted idea. At the least Syrian rebels should be allowed to arm themselves to protect the regions they control from such attacks. European countries, even if they have no wish to participate in efforts to arm the rebels, should not oppose such initiatives from countries willing to do so, like France, for instance. Of course it is not at all about arming the most extreme elements in the opposition. On the contrary, I believe that by allowing moderate rebels to arm themselves we will create the bulwark against the most extreme elements in the insurgency. I thank the committee members for their attention.

Thank you very much, Dr. Pierret. I will call on members now in the order in which they have indicated. I should have mentioned earlier that Dr. Pierret is a lecturer in contemporary Islam at the department of Islamic and Middle Eastern studies in the University of Edinburgh. He has lectured widely from Washington to Paris and in the United States on this and similar or related subjects. Thank you for your original presentation.

I welcome Dr. Pierret and thank him for his contribution. He has outlined a picture that is remarkably difficult, complex and horrendous for Syria and the neighbouring regions. I understand there have been more than 140,000 fatalities, over 9 million people within Syria are in need of immediate life-saving support and 2.6 million Syrian refugees require assistance in neighbouring countries. That is a stark picture of suffering for so many individuals.

The second international humanitarian pledging conference for Syria and the broader region took place at the end of January. Initially the international community had been slow and reluctant to act. Unfortunately, they did not react and provide the assistance needed. Is Dr. Pierret aware of whether the humanitarian aid pledges made in recent times have been honoured or improved upon? I realise it is not Dr. Pierret's particular area but he may be familiar with it.

The United Nations Security Council resolution No. 2139 had laudable and necessary objectives. However, at the end of March the United Nations Secretary General reported limited progress in respect of the issues that the UN was mandated to pursue. The humanitarian situation has deteriorated in the meantime. Has a robust assessment been carried out by the United Nations of the implementation of resolution No. 2139? Has any urgency been shown in implementing the action plan to eliminate Syria's chemical weapons? Dr. Pierret has laid particular emphasis on the difficulty with regard to establishing a transitional governing body. If that issue could be progressed or if some progress could be made, does Dr. Pierret envisage any chance of the Geneva II conference being revived?

Thank you very much. Will you bank the questions, Dr. Pierret, if that is possible, and answer them in a group? We may have two banks but we will see how it goes. If the submissions are kept short we may have a chance for two banks.

Dr. Pierret started off by saying that he did not believe there was a military solution. Is he suggesting that he does not believe there is a military solution?

We will bank the answers. Continue.

Dr. Pierret is suggesting that perhaps there is no diplomatic solution at this stage. He referred to attacks on the regime. It appears that Assad is unlikely to resign or give up his grip. Those in the opposition seem more divided now than they have ever been. The only thing those in the opposition seem to be joining together is their opposition to some of the groups within the country. Deputy Brendan Smith noted that 15 March was the third anniversary of the beginning of the Syrian war. Many people believe that it came out of the Arab spring. Many people thought there would great and positive regime changes throughout the region. As we have seen, there have been some changes in some countries but in others, like Bahrain, where the Arab spring started, it was not allowed to develop.

Libya has broken down into tribal areas. The whole region has experienced conflicts. We all hope the magic bullet to resolve this situation will be found. In the view of the witnesses will the opposition ever agree to a peace deal with Assad or his government? This was a possibility considered during the Geneva talks.

I ask the witnesses to comment on a recent development in the reorganisation of Kurdish political forces and the creation of military self-defence groups in that region. People have been coming into that region for security and protection. Kurdish political groups have campaigned for a separate seat at the Geneva talks because they do not wish to be lumped in with the general opposition. Would it be helpful if the Kurds had a separate seat at the table? The Kurdish united and popular political movement could have a positive impact on the situation in the region.

Some attempts have been made to establish a humanitarian corridor, some more successful than others. According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA, 9.3 million people are in desperate need, 6.5 million people are displaced within the country and 2.5 million Syrians have become refugees in neighbouring countries and in north Africa. The figures are staggering and I do not think we have any sense of the impact on the people.

The situation in Syria will not be fixed overnight. How can countries like Ireland best ease the humanitarian crisis and what can Europe do? Should the EU do more such as opening its borders to refugees? What is the impact of the crisis on Jordan and Turkey which are dealing with massive numbers of Syrian refugees? Lebanon has expressed concern about the impact on its infrastructure of the number of refugees. It would seem that humanitarian aid is an attempt to plaster over the cracks which exist in Syrian society. We are told that 65% of Syria's chemical weapons stockpile has been removed from the country. Will it be possible to remove and destroy all the chemical weapons?

I welcome the witnesses. Last week we acknowledged the anniversary of the massacres in Rwanda and we are facing another situation of that magnitude. People say that what happened in Rwanda could never happen again but it is happening in Syria and I have no doubt that in ten or 20 years' time we will be acknowledging the number of casualties, fatalities and massacres in Syria. It seems we never learn to move on and we continue to treat people in that way.

I ask for the witnesses' view on the role of the United Nations. As other members said, strong resolutions have come from the UN General Assembly and the UN Security Council but it would seem that they are not worth the paper they are written on. Does this show how the UN is inept or ineffective in this situation?

There are questions with regard to the Syrian opposition. I read an article which suggests that the headlines given to radical Islam are disproportionate to the actual numbers involved. What is the Free Syrian Army doing about the radical groups which have infiltrated it? Have particular areas been taken over by al-Qaeda? I would value the views of the witnesses about the opposition.

Russian and Iranian interests were mentioned in the submission. The counter-balance is the influence of western and American interests. It might be preferable if they could all back off from their involvement and let the Syrian people decide their own destiny but it seems we are not too fond of doing that.

I was horrified by the reaction of the Russian ambassador who attended a recent committee meeting to speak about Ukraine. I asked him if he would impress on his Government the need for humanitarian corridors in Syria so that medical and food supplies could get to the people. His reaction was horrifying. When the war eventually stops there will be massive problems for people trying to continue with their lives in the aftermath and for the rebuilding of Syria.

I ask the witnesses to elaborate on the reference in the submission to a separate Alawite state.

I am almost intimidated by Dr. Pierret's CV which is probably one of the most extensive I have ever read. It indicates that he is a very keen specialist and he has in-depth knowledge of the subject and who am I to challenge some of his proposals? However, I am a politician and we work in different worlds. Dr. Pierret works in the academic world and mine is in the pragmatic, grassroots engagement with the people.

The situation in Syria is horrendous. My sympathy, for what it is worth, goes out to the Syrian civilians who are caught up in this international madness, this holocaust, essentially. The degree of displacement and the number of refugees is unbelievable. The solid middle class and working class communities find themselves in camps and in desperation. We hear terrible reports about wealthy Saudi Arabians buying young girls from the camps. I do not know if these reports are true but it was mentioned at a recent public meeting in Athens.

We all ask the same question as to where we go from here. At the outset of this crisis the committee heard representatives who made the case for our support. Ireland decided to lend its support to the UN for aid assistance. Some of the representatives wanted aid to go directly to them in the field. These were opposition supporters at the time.

I have some suggestions to put to the witnesses and I ask for their comments. Should we be surprised at the role of the West? It seems to me that once al-Qaeda or Islamist fanatics and suicide bombers are equated with the opposition, it is inevitable that the West stood back and did not show the support to which the opposition was entitled. One cannot be blind to atrocities and the witnesses referred to the atrocities of the Assad regime. We live in the age of the Internet and we have been able to see the atrocities carried out by elements of the opposition. We are faced with a moral dilemma. Dr. Pierret referred to morality and the moral case. What Assad's people are doing is immoral. The Russians support Assad.

At around the time we had witnesses from Syria before the committee telling us about their experience, the United States Administration was referring to its red line policy, the red line being the use of chemical weapons, after which, we were told, the game would change. Of course, that did not happen. In fairness to the Russians, they did broker a deal with Assad to take chemical weapons out of the war zone. To what extent that actually happened is probably still open to question, but at least it was something. Having said that, it does not matter all that much whether a person dies from inhalation of some chemical or has a barrel bomb dropped on him or her. How does Dr. Pierret view the Russian involvement in basically bailing out the West, and the United States in particular? After talking about a red line and promising action would be taken if chemical weapons were used, the Americans did nothing. We might say that the Russians did at least do something.

There are elements of the conflict that have not been mentioned today, some of which are referred to in an excellent and saddening report in The Irish Times today. What is Dr. Pierret's interpretation of the role of Palestinians, Coptic Christians and other minorities who are caught up in the conflict? The article to which I referred describes the support for the regime among the people living in the historic valley where the language of Jesus Christ is spoken. It really is an incredible article which everybody should read. Are such people wrong to support Assad for coming in and providing the security they seem to need? In some cases, the loyalties of some of those who started out supporting the Arab spring seemed to have been usurped by other interests. On the question of Western attitudes, was there not a fear that if support was given to the Syrian opposition, all the young men from Britain who went to fight against Assad - indeed, there were even a few Irish lads who went out - would bring their fanaticism back to the West? This might have been another factor in the less than wholehearted support for the opposition. As I said, there are many forces at play in the region.

I did not know about the gains being made by the opposition, as referred to by Dr. Pierret, in the north, east and south of the country. Not being very familiar with the region, can I assume that one of those regions is where the Kurdish population is very highly concentrated? If there were ultimately to be a division of the country, is it right to presume that Assad would tolerate - one can hardly say he would be happy about it - those people being given their own homeland?

The morality of the issue is very hard to get one's head around because we do not know who is moral in the field. Dr. Pierret is suggesting that we should demand a stop to the barrel bombing, support the implementation of a no-fly zone and then arm the rebels. Several questions come immediately to mind. Who would be considered acceptable in the region to impose a no-fly zone? What agency might be capable of applying the moral prerogative to stop the barrel bombings? Finally, would arming the rebels really be a solution to the problems and conflicts in Syria?

Dr. Pierret has heard the views of committee members, which broadly reflect the views of most people in this and other parliaments in the West. Regarding the pressure for the implementation of a no-fly zone, can Dr. Pierret say why it has not happened? Will he elaborate on the barrel bombing and the effect it is having on civilians? It sounds like carpet bombing and must be taking a terrible toll on the civilian population. It is often said that truth is the first casualty of war. The civilian population is surely the second, particularly in this case.

One of the saddest aspects of this conflict is the almost total helplessness of the global community in dealing with it. Of course, it is always very difficult to deal with a situation where a person has been elected within a so-called democracy. It is very difficult for the international community to get involved in regime change. The morality of that issue has been discussed at this committee many times. Allied to that is the reality that not everybody who has been elected democratically down through the centuries has proven subsequently to be a democrat. Those issues must all be borne in mind.

The extent to which the international community, including the European Union, Russia and Iran, seems invariably to be helpless in bringing any influence to bear on any perpetrator or series of perpetrators in defence of civilian populations is an issue of grave concern to this committee. There seems to be no deterrent or warning sufficient to convince certain regimes in conflict situations that what is happening is not acceptable internationally. One possible exception might be the former Liberian President, Charles Taylor, who did receive his comeuppance, albeit after a great deal of strife. To what extent does the United Nations need to revise its thinking, attitude and policies in order to ensure that where atrocities of the nature we are seeing in Syria occur, there will be intervention to protect the civilian population and retribution for such atrocities? It is very sad that this particular conflict is being overshadowed by other conflicts, which are serving to deflect public attention away from what is happening there.

Dr. Thomas Pierret

I thank members for their questions and will try to address as many as I can. I apologise if my expertise is such that I am better at answering certain of them than I am at addressing others. In giving my response, I will try to link certain issues together.

Several speakers referred to the role of the West, and there was reference to al-Qaeda, Islamists, suicide bombers and so on. In my view, Western policy on Syria was defined once and for all in the autumn of 2011, when we did not have a single visible Islamist fighter on the ground in Syria. In August of that year Assad was starting to use his military and it was obvious he was building towards the use of artillery in due course. The military opposition at that time consisted of small groups of military defectors; one did not see any Islamists around. At the same time, the NATO Secretary General and Ms Hillary Clinton were insisting there would not be any military intervention in Syria. That is a statement we heard every single week in the autumn of 2011 and it was a disastrous message to send to Assad at that time. He was being told, in effect, that he was free to do whatever he wanted, which is precisely what he had begun to do by late January 2012. The Islamist threat simply did not arise at that time and cannot now be used as an excuse by the West for its inaction. The policy was being defined very early on and was very clear by virtue of its contrast with what happened in Libya. There the message was that it was not acceptable for Gadaffi to use his military against rebel strongholds, whereas, in Syria, Assad was allowed to do exactly the same without suffering any type of retaliation.

Then we come to the famous red line.

The Vice Chairman spoke of the helplessness of the global community in dealing with this situation but we see that the only moment Assad agreed to change his policy was when faced with a credible military threat. It is the only thing that has worked so far. The only dramatic move he made since 2011 was under a very serious and credible military threat. Therefore, I do not think it is true to say we cannot do anything. If the same kind of threat was formulated with regard to barrel bombings, forced starvation and all of that, we could secure some resources.

That leads me to the dreaded issue of the Russian role and whether it is positive. I personally think, and this is strong wording, that the deal for chemical weapons was shameful. It removed the most dangerous weapon from the scene as far as we know but we have now heard of new chemical attacks and they seem real because they have been mentioned by both the opposition and regime media. Each side is blaming the other for the attacks. I have good reason to think that the regime is best placed to carry out chemical attacks. Apart from the fact that the implementation of the deal is perhaps not complete, it opened a period of several months during which Assad was given free rein to do absolutely anything he wanted and, I would even say, he was encouraged to do it for the simple reason that the military factories that produce chemical agents in Syria are located in the hinterland, mostly around Damascus and Aleppo. In order to transfer these weapons to the port of Latakia and have them destroyed, the regime had to secure the strategic roads linking the hinterland to the coast. That led to bloody battles that entailed forcing thousands out of their homes and barrel bombings of towns, which wiped certain towns off the map, all with some kind of beneficial blessing of the international community because that was necessary to implement the deal. It was very problematic. After that deal, we saw the implementation of the policy of starvation. The message sent out was very negative. The message was that as long as Assad got rid of Syria's chemical weapons he could do anything else, including starving the people. I am not that grateful to Russia for its role in that respect.

That leads me on to humanitarian measures, the issue of UN resolutions and the partial end to the siege of Homs. As was said by one of the members of the committee, the implementation of these measures is very limited for the simple reason that the implementation of these humanitarian measures for besieged areas remains much too heavily dependent on the regime's goodwill, which, in many places, is still preventing food from coming in. That is why I am personally in favour of a much more forceful approach such as humanitarian corridors that would be protected by UN military forces. With regard to some of the people who left the besieged areas in Homs a few weeks ago, males aged between 18 and 50 were arrested and some of them have disappeared. It is shameful that happened literally under the eyes of UN personnel.

I mentioned the issue of radical Islamists who were not there at the start of the conflict but who grew in strength throughout 2012 to a large extent by exploiting the helplessness of the international community. I remember when the organisation al-Nusra - the front of support - issued its first statement in January 2012. At the time it was a tiny network comprising a few dozen or a hundred people. It was a very minor complement of the armed opposition. Its first statement was very critical of the United states and Turkey and the reason for its criticism is complicated. I remember it was perceived extremely badly among the opposition at large, and not only by the moderate opposition. Most rebels found it ridiculous at the time to focus attacks on western countries when the real enemy was Assad and his allies and many rebels were still hoping they could get support from the West. These radical movements and their entire western discourse gradually took root because of that context and because of that feeling of abandonment by the international community.

What did the rebels do about it? The members will have heard about internal fighting among the rebels which are internal divisions among them and I think that is very good. The organisation being followed by the mainstream rebels, the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, is essentially a destructive one which has its own agenda which has very little to do with the Syrian revolution. Its agenda is one of a murderous utopian dream of having an Islamic state across the border between Iraq and Syria with complete disregard for the basic aspirations of Syrians to have freedom and dignity. The regime it is trying to establish is certainly very harsh and repressive. One of the most dangerous things it was doing was that it was sealing off the country from the outside world. In 2012 a large number of Western reporters were coming into Syria and reporting from rebel controlled areas. That completely stopped in 2013 because any foreigner getting into Syria was abducted by this organisation which was consistently working against the interests of the opposition in that respect. At least this organisation has now been expelled from certain regions between north and western Syria and this has re-opened contact with Turkey. I think this is good.

Reference was made to a possible line of balance between Russia, Iran and western countries. I do not see that kind of balance there at the moment in the sense that the support provided by Russia and Iran is much more significant and dedicated than western support. With regard to the countries that support the opposition overall, we frequently hear about the rivalry between Qatar and Saudi Arabia - which are supporting the same people - and there are rivalries undermining the unity of the national coalition. That is well known. Western countries are not exactly on the same line as the Gulf countries. There are not the same divisions among the allies of the Assad regime. They have a very clear and well-defined objective. They want Assad to remain where he is and they are doing everything they can to achieve that. There is a major imbalance in the kind of support each side receives. To connect the issue of the transitional body, I do not think the transitional body is a way to achieve a solution. That is the final product but the question is how we get there. How do we get the parties to accept the establishment of a transitional body? I do not think it is a problem for the opposition, the political opposition, or even for significant elements of the military opposition. It is interesting that before the Geneva talks earlier this year, military groups were saying, "Do not go to Geneva; if you go there you will be traitors", but during the talks we had several rather encouraging statements by military organisations, including Islamist ones, but not radical jihadist ones, I suspect, encouraged in that respect by Qatar, which is not always playing a negative role.

We are not very enthusiastic about Geneva but if one can achieve something there that is okay. In that respect I do not think the problem is on the side of the opposition. There was a question of whether the opposition would agree to a deal with Assad but that would not be a deal or a compromise. One cannot have a compromise with Assad remaining in power. That would be total victory by Assad. The compromise in my view would be what was outlined in Geneva I, namely, a transitional body with elements of the former regime and elements of the opposition but not Assad remaining on top because that would not be a deal; that would be just a victory disguised as transition. The problem is that the regime is totally opposed to the idea of transition so I do not think we are getting anywhere close to that solution, which is why I am so pessimistic about diplomacy. I am sorry if I did not answer clearly. I do think that military options could be part of the solution. They would of course not solve everything. There would be many problems but if we want to break the stalemate and protect civilians it might force Assad and his allies - perhaps not Assad; I do not think he will ever change his calculation. He is in a bunker and he will remain in the bunker until the end but there are people in the region who I think would be ready to take a more flexible approach.

In the last days of August when everyone was expecting a strike against Syria I heard from western diplomats that many high-ranking officials in the regime were getting in touch with western governments seeking a way out because they thought the boat was sinking and that it was the time to leave it. Once they realised that the US was not serious about the threat they just back-tracked. They are people who have no affection for Assad. They know where he led the country but they make a very rational calculation. They think that if the regime is there to stay because no one is really serious about putting an end to it then they will stick with Assad because that is the safest option because they have families and interests in Syria.

I am looking for other issues I might not have addressed. Reference was made to Kurdish political forces. That is a tricky issue. The problem is that there was a Russian idea to have three kinds of groups of representatives of the opposition; one would be the national coalition which was backed by western and Gulf countries and Turkey; one would be what they called the internal opposition, which I think is not a very accurate term because its main figure lives in Paris, but to put it simply, it refers to the opposition that is acceptable from the point of view of the regime; the third group is Kurdish nationalists. The problem is that they would not be representative of all Kurds; it would be the dominant military force among the Kurds, which is called the PYD which has an armed branch called YPG. It is a group that has historically had relatively close ties to the regime, which is very powerful because it is linked to the PKK in Turkey which means it has weapons, training and credibility on the ground but there are other Kurdish groups which do not share that political approach and especially their readiness to co-operate with the regime. Kurds have the right to be represented in negotiations but the way the representation is designed must be very delicate and should be handled with the greatest care rather than serving the agenda of the regime.

There was a question about the regional impact and refugees. The Western approach was that perhaps it could not do much to solve the conflict but at least it could try to contain it. At least that was the US view. I am not generalising to include all western governments. That was misguided. The refugee crisis is one thing that clearly shows we cannot contain the conflict. It is good to help refugees in neighbouring countries but if the refugees keep flowing in and if we do not address the source of the problem it is hypocritical and eventually useless.

The kind of regional impact it can have varies widely from one country to another. I am not too concerned about a country like Turkey, which is a large and relatively wealthy country and can deal with an influx of refugees, but Lebanon, on the other hand, is a very worrying case. How can a country of 4 million remain stable with 1 million refugees, which is an insane number, and especially with all the political problems Lebanon has? It is reluctant to welcome refugees. There is a problem with sectarian violence in Lebanon. Pretty much all Syrian refugees are Sunni Muslims and that is an issue. In the 1940s when the Palestinians arrived in Lebanon that was already seen as a problem especially by Christian politicians at the time because it was creating an imbalance in the population and now one has this new even larger influx of Syrian refugees with no guarantee they will be able to go home any time soon because many of them come from regions especially around Homs where the regime is not at all eager to see them back. The situation in Lebanon is very worrying. Jordan is in between. It is not as unstable and does not have the same potential for ethnic or sectarian strife as Lebanon but at the same time it is a rather poor country with limited resources. One could ask how it could cope in terms of water supply with such a massive increase in population. I will stop at that point. I am happy to answer further questions.

My apologies, as I had to go speak in the Seanad. I have picked up the threads of what was said from speaking to my colleagues. I am a little alarmed with the answers Dr. Pierret has given. It is a very complex and difficult situation but the Syrian army and regime looks as if it is winning the war. It might take some time for that to happen. I do not know whether the witnesses agree. It is also obvious at this stage that the opposition is far from being a homogenous group. It is made up of many diverse groups including some jihadists and al-Qaeda organisations.

Dr. Pierret should correct me if I misinterpret him but his response seemed to be that perhaps the Americans should bomb the regime and follow through on the threat they made. That would be disastrous. Dr. Pierret does not paint any picture of what would happen subsequently. There is no denying the Assad regime is a brutal one but would the cure be as bad or worse than the disease? We have seen that in other places in the Middle East. I just read a report in today’s newspaper, for example, that in Maaloula – a town that has been totally destroyed – Christians were driven out and some of them were killed. Moderate Islamists were also killed. I look at what the US did, for example, in Iraq. I doubt there are too many people there who say that what the US did has been a panacea for their problems and what they would have liked to see happen even though Saddam Hussein was brutal as well. Another way must be found to deal with such issues. It strikes me that simplistic answers will not resolve complex situations.

The lack of cohesion among the international community is an issue that applies everywhere, including Ukraine, which we may discuss later, but I do not regard what Dr. Pierret said as being any sort of solution. In terms of having a transitional body, I believe the extremists have an agenda, as we have seen in other countries, that will not end when the war is over. It will continue, but Dr. Pierret does not appear to have factored that into the equation.

Dr. Pierret, that reflects the views expressed by members earlier. We have discussed matters of this nature previously and what it comes down to in the end is the extent to which a war of this nature can take place in a country with impunity in so far as the perpetrators are concerned. Recognising that there cannot be an intervention from anywhere and that the conflict will continue indefinitely, without any retribution, to what extent must the United Nations change to meet the emerging situation because there are similar conflicts worldwide, and more will occur?

Dr. Thomas Pierret

First, as I said earlier, to say the Syrian army is winning is to misread the situation. It is winning in certain regions that have been identified as the stronghold of the regime, which is mainly in the centre, in the province of Homs. Second, it is not the Syrian army that is winning. Every single battle won by the regime was won with the support of Hezbollah fighters, Iraqi fighters and pro-Iranian militias.

When I spoke about gains by the opposition I was not referring to Kurdish region; I was referring to recent developments around Aleppo. The regime is winning victories, mostly around the Lebanese border because Hezbollah is willing to intervene forcefully there as it is close to Lebanon but elsewhere in the province of Aleppo, the situation is not good for the region. There have been setbacks there. I do not believe the regime could ever achieve complete victory. It cannot take the entire territory because it does not have enough loyal soldiers to do that. It has suffered from a dire lack of manpower since day one, and that is why it is using such brutal tactics. It needs to wipe a city off the map before re-taking it because it does not have enough soldiers to engage in street fighting and retake it house by house. It first expels people or starves them before moving in.

Senator Walsh said bombing the regime would be a disaster. What we have in Syria today is far more violent conflict than what we saw in Iraq in the 2000s. The monthly death toll is higher than at any point in the civil war in Iraq. Currently, it is the most violent armed conflict in the world. It is a disaster. It has displaced 40% of the Syrian population. I cannot see how it could it be worse.

On the idea that the regime is providing something positive, we should compare it with that of Saddam Hussein. Before 2003, Iraq was a stable country. It was run by a ruthless, brutal regime but there was no war. We have an actual war in Syria. In terms of Damascus, it would be like saying that inside the beltway everything is fine but outside it one cannot find a building standing because all of them have been shelled for two years. Is that the kind of security they are providing?

We hear comparisons with Libya. Libya is in a difficult, chaotic situation. There is violence in Libya, but most Syrians dream of a situation like Libya. What is the monthly death toll in Libya? It might be dozens at most but it is very low in comparison with Syria. The problem is that we cannot hope for anything better.

Using military threat against the regime to obtain the end of the most blatant violations of human rights such as barrel bombings and starvation would not be a disaster. That would save lives.

On that point, the mystery is the role of Russia. Dr. Pierret is talking about the West, and I presume the Americans, engaging but how can they do that if Russia is vetoing their-----

Dr. Thomas Pierret

That is why I think-----

It will not allow military-----

Dr. Thomas Pierret

Russia has not even allowed a clear condemnation of the regime by the UN Security Council.

How do we stop the barrel bombing? Dr. Pierret is asking for that intervention.

Dr. Thomas Pierret

I am in favour-----

Can we have that intervention with the Russians vetoing it?

Dr. Thomas Pierret

When President Obama made the threat after the chemical attack he did not ask the Security Council if he could do it. He did it unilaterally, and it worked. We should not wait for the Russians to accept it because they will never do that. I do not see any reason for Russia to change its mind on Syria, especially after the crisis in Ukraine.

On that issue, I am in favour of unilateral action but in that respect the UN is inept. It is not even able to issue a strong verbal condemnation. When the first one was presented by the western countries in February 2012, which explicitly stated that this resolution cannot be used to justify military action, the Russians found a way to oppose it. We can expect anything from that kind of mechanism.

Reference was made to radical Islamists. Radical Islamists have an agenda but it is not one that is compatible with political transition and democracy in Syria. I agree with that but leaving Assad to do what he wants will not make these people weaker. It is empowering them. Their whole discourse is vindicated by the behaviour of the international community. The first statement from the front of support organisation sounded misplaced to most Syrians. They wondered what it was talking about and why it was bashing the West but many people now believe it was right from the onset. There were fears about encouraging regime change in Syria and the Muslim Brotherhood taking over but because of that policy we find ourselves faced with far more radical Islamists than the Muslim Brotherhood. That is a misguided approach to the conflict. Also, as I explained, seeing Assad as a bulwark against these people is a fundamental error. He needs them to survive because once they are gone, he will be gone too.

I thank Dr. Pierret for coming before the committee and giving us the benefit of his extensive knowledge of the area and the subject matter. No doubt we will have to visit this subject and similar ones again because the points made clearly indicate that the possibility of outside intervention is not on the agenda and that even it were, there is still a situation to be resolved thereafter. Following Dr. Pierret's submission, we will do whatever we can to pursue the points raised by the members and by Dr. Pierret. We will go into private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.48 p.m. and adjourned at 4.26 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 May 2014.
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