Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Wednesday, 28 May 2014

Situation in Nigeria: Ambassador of Nigeria

Chairman

Before commencing with the meeting, I wish to remind members, witnesses and all those in the Public Gallery to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting, as even in silent mode they cause interference with the recording equipment in our committee rooms.

I am delighted to welcome His Excellency, Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol, the Ambassador of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. He has been with us for a number of years and has been a very good ambassador. He has obviously built strong relations between Nigeria and Ireland during his term of office here. Unfortunately, like all ambassadors, his term of office is up shortly and he will be leaving us in the near future. This is an ideal opportunity for us to have the ambassador here today to talk about a number of issues, including his time here.

He is accompanied by his Minister, Mr. Jidda, head of chancery at the Nigerian Embassy.

Before we hear from Ambassador Pwol, I wish to remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such as way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, whenever possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I also wish to welcome members of the diplomatic corps and representatives of St. Michael's School in Finglas, who have taken a great interest in the subject matter which we are about to discuss. We all know about the recent events in Nigeria and are all aware of the various atrocities that have been committed. Most noticeably, a few weeks ago, we received news of the kidnapping of more than 200 schoolgirls from the northern town of Chibok. This particular incident has gained a lot of media attention worldwide, including here in Ireland. It has been the subject of correspondence, including a petition received by the joint committee. The issue has also been the subject matter of many parliamentary questions recently.

At the moment, our thoughts are with the girls and their families. We hope they will be released unharmed and we continue to monitor the situation. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, has taken a particular interest in this matter. In addition, the ambassador has been monitoring the situation for the Government.

I now call on Ambassador Pwol to make his presentation to the joint committee. He is very welcome. We are delighted to have him and his counsellor present to update us on the current political situation, particularly the incidence of kidnapping which has had worldwide attention. Hopefully, there can be a peaceful solution so that those girls can return to their families. One can just imagine the uproar and consternation if it happened here in Ireland and all those students in St. Michael's College were kidnapped. One can imagine the ordeal and hurt their families would have to endure. We hope there will be a successful, peaceful conclusion to this issue. Perhaps the ambassador can also say a few words about Irish-Nigerian relations.

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me at the outset express my profound appreciation to the Chair and other members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade for the invitation extended to me to brief this august body on recent developments regarding the Boko Haram insurgency in Nigeria.

This briefing session organised by the committee is a clear indication of the concern and empathy the Government and people of Ireland have towards the Government and people of Nigeria over the security challenges affecting the country in recent years, especially as they concern the incessant unleashing of terror by the Boko Haram insurgency group.

On behalf of the Government and people of Nigeria, may I also express my deepest thanks to many individuals, associations and schoolchildren in Ireland who have in strong terms condemned the abduction of the over 270 schoolchildren in Chibok, Borno state? The embassy has received numerous letters from Irish citizens expressing grave concern over the fate of the abducted schoolgirls. We certainly appreciate this gesture.

I will now explain the background for the distinguished parliamentarians here. The emergence of the Boko Haram sect in Nigeria is a fairly recent development dating back to the year 2009. Since then, it has metamorphosed into a local insurgency. The sect was officially known as Jamaa'tu Ahlis Sunna Lidda'wati Wai Jihad, which in English means "people committed to the propagation of the Prophet's teachings and jihad".

The words Boko Haram literally mean western or non-Islamic education is prohibited. The group is strongly opposed to all democratic institutions and principles. The insurgency is a declaration of war on the Government and people of Nigeria. It is understood that the group's ultimate objective is to create an Islamic state in Nigeria.

In carrying out its destructive acts, the group has, since 2009, unleashed mayhem by launching a vicious guerrilla-style campaign against defenceless people, government infrastructure and installations, places of worship, schools, villages and communities.

The Boko Haram insurgency has so far claimed over 12,000 lives with more than 8,000 persons injured or maimed. The insurgency has also displaced thousands of innocent Nigerians, especially in the border communities, and has destroyed properties worth billions of naira.

As members of the joint committee are aware, on 14 April 2014, the Boko Haram insurgents abducted over 200 schoolgirls from Chibok secondary school in Borno state. This followed the slaughter of some 40 schoolchildren in the Government secondary school Banu, in Yobe state. These two incidents, including the Nyanya, Abuja bombings in April and May 2014, represent the most vicious and callous attack of terror and violence by Boko Haram bandits in recent times. It is therefore obvious that this terror group has destroyed social life in the north-eastern part of Nigeria and has crippled economic activities in the area.

Let me make it categorically clear that the insurgency is certainly not a religious war, as both Christians and Muslims have been killed and have had their places of worship destroyed. It has also emerged that the group has links with other terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and al-Shabab. The group has hideouts and camps in neighbouring countries, namely, Chad, Cameroon and the Niger Republic. Boko Haram's war is not only against the Nigerian Government and people but constitutes a threat to regional peace and security.

I will now outline the Government efforts involved. In its efforts to stem the situation, the Government declared a state of emergency on 15 May 2013 in three north-eastern states, namely, Adamawa, Borno and Yobe. The state of emergency has been renewed twice since then and there are plans to extend it further until the situation improves in these states. The matter is currently before our Parliament, the National Assembly. The President has sent a fresh request for renewal of the mandate.

Members of the joint committee may also be aware that a new division of the Nigerian army, the 7th mechanised division, has been established in Maiduguri, Borno state.

The Government has adopted a multi-track strategy to contain the insurgency which includes dialogue, engagement, empowerment, education and re-orientation. It will be recalled that the presidential committee on dialogue and peaceful resolution of security challenges in the north, headed by Mr. Kabiru T. Turaki, the Minister for Special Duties, has submitted its report which is currently being considered for implementation. The acceptance of the request for assistance from the USA, France, Britain, Israel, China and Spain is evidence of the Government's resolve to secure the release of the abducted children and to also see that the perpetrators of these dastardly acts are brought to justice. The recent classification of Boko Haram as a foreign terrorist organisation by the United Nations Security Council is a welcome development. With this classification, Boko Haram will become liable to the imposition of sanctions with global application. It will also be recalled that the United States of America, Canada and Australia have accorded Boko Haram the same classification.

In the aftermath of the abduction of the girls in Chibok, information management and reporting has been a source of concern to the Government. In this regard, the Government has adopted measures to streamline information management and co-ordination to forestall the misrepresentation of facts to the general public and our international partners. The recently concluded special summit of security on Nigeria hosted by the President of France, François Hollande, was attended by the Presidents of Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad and Niger as well as representatives of the UK, USA and EU. The outcome of the conference has further renewed the commitment of all stakeholders to this crisis. The major highlights of the decisions at the conference include: information sharing among countries in the region; co-ordinated action for the urgent rescue of the abducted girls with the active support and co-operation of all the countries participating in the summit; regional co-operation and the establishment of joint border patrols with the four neighbouring states; the establishment of mechanisms for information exchange on trafficking of weapons; bolstering of measures to secure weapons stockpiles; and the implementation of co-ordinated patrols with the aim of combatting Boko Haram and locating the missing schoolgirls.

As I conclude my brief statement, I express again my thanks for the support and solidarity Nigeria continues to enjoy from the Government and people of Ireland. I underscore the fact that my Government is leaving no stone unturned to ensure the current insurgency is brought to an end in the not-too-distant future. I thank the distinguished parliamentarians for their kind attention.

Chairman

I thank the ambassador. In recent days, we have heard that a senior military chief has said he has some idea of where the children are located. While the President has said there will be no negotiation, are negotiations ongoing in relation to the release of the schoolgirls?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

I prefer not to comment on the specifics. All I will say is that Government is making efforts. This is a very delicate operation and I would prefer to leave it at that.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Like the Chairman, I take the opportunity to express solidarity with the Nigerian authorities in dealing with a very difficult situation. The Tánaiste on behalf of the Government and the Irish people condemned in the strongest possible terms the frequency and spread of terrorist attacks and violent activities. Naturally, the authorities must take all steps to protect their citizens and maintain law and order.

The ambassador mentioned that 12,000 lives had been lost in the insurgency. I presume that is in the period 2009 to 2014. If that is correct, it brings me on to a report from Amnesty International which estimated that 1,500 people were killed in northern Nigeria between January and March of this year. If those figures are correct, they demonstrate a very significant intensification of murder and loss of life which must be the source of serious concern.

The Chairman referred quite rightly to the abduction of more than 270 schoolchildren. That abduction of innocent young people strikes a chord with all who believe in civilisation and basic human rights. With regard to the special summit on security that was hosted by the President of France on 17 May 2014 and the decisions and recommendations reached, does the ambassador consider that the necessary actions which have been agreed will be implemented with the urgency required? We are dealing with a very difficult situation.

Can the ambassador let us know with what other international terrorist organisations Boko Haram has an association?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

There is a Paris conference in June 2014, which is intended to be a follow up to review what has been done. By way of background, it has become clear that Boko Haram has been operating not only from Nigerian territory but from neighbouring countries. In the last few months, there has been greater co-ordination of action principally with Benin, Niger, Chad and Cameroon. Unfortunately, I do not have a map with me, but if members know the geography of Nigeria, the states involved border it to the north, principally Chad and Cameroon. It has been established that following its attacks, Boko Haram seeks safe hideouts in Cameroon. That is why Cameroon was brought on board. Small arms have also been a major part of this problems. Nigeria is a leading member of the Economic Community of West African States, ECOWAS, and we are trying to enforce the ECOWAS convention on small arms signed in 2006.

Regarding Boko Haram's links to other organisations, I honestly do not know. I must say that this is a new phenomenon in west Africa, as we have seen. It is only as this crisis has evolved that we have been able to establish these links. If one looks at west Africa from Mali and moves eastwards, there is a clear link. The arms that came from Libya after the collapse of the Gadaffi regime have also been established as a factor as one moves eastwards through Chad, central Africa and up to Somalia. It is important to recognise that we are dealing with an evolving situation and I do not know whether anybody can authoritatively say "This is why it is". We are trying to follow and monitor what is happening as things evolve. It is a very fluid situation but I can tell the committee that with the meeting in France and international support from our immediate neighbours, ECOWAS, the African Union and the UN, we are very optimistic that we will make major headway in the next few months. I do not know if I missed anything.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I referred to the loss of life and the intensification in the period January to March 2014 when Amnesty International estimated there were 1,500 deaths.

H. E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

No, no. The facts that I gave the committee were established by the Government of Nigeria. I do not want to comment on what Amnesty International has said.

Information management in this matter involves a delicate balance in a democratic situation. While we appreciate the need for the public to know, we should also be mindful of how these figures are arrived at. Many organisations have come out with such figures which we have found are not correct. The established figure for the Abuja bus station bomb blast was 75 killed, but some organisations claimed that the death toll was between 100 and 175.

Deputy Brendan Smith

What was the timeline for the figure of 12,000?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

It would probably be from 2009 to 2014, but I am not sure when exactly in 2014.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Has the loss of life intensified the longer the insurgency has lasted?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

It is important to understand the background. The Nigerian Government has had a very difficult situation to deal with. As a democratic government, the initial response was to seek to engage in dialogue. However, the group refused to talk and continued to kill innocent people. Even to declare a state of emergency was a very difficult decision. There was a meeting of major stakeholders, the state governments, community leaders and legislators, at which all factors were considered. These measures were taken in line with the Nigerian constitution because the Nigerian Government felt it could not stand by in the name of democracy and human rights when innocent people were being killed. The offer of dialogue is still being ignored. One must, therefore, understand the background to some of these issues.

The Nigerian Government has a committee in place that is willing at any time to discuss any issue the group wants to discuss. There are so many channels for it to air its grievances. The press is one of the freest in Africa and the world. Nigeria comprises 36 states, with 36 individual legislative arms. We have a Senate with 109 Members and a House of Representatives with 360 Members. There is a human rights commission, as well as a public complaints commission. If people cannot utilise all of these channels and prefer to use violence, one can understand the dilemma. Is one going to leave innocent people to be attacked, killed or maimed? These are some of the challenges we want people to see and actually appreciate the magnitude of what we are going through.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome the ambassador. My first experience of people from Nigeria was when, as a child, two young children from Biafra arrived at our school, refugees from the conflict. As kids, it was probably the first time we had actually met anyone fleeing from a war-torn region and it was unusual that it was two African children at our school. There are 40,000 Nigerians living in Ireland today. A few years later a conflict had broken out in a part of this country and we met more people fleeing from that conflict.

The ambassador has explained the meaning of “Boko Haram”, namely, forbidding western education. I do not know much about the Koran, but I always understood Mohammad had spoken about the importance of education. He even said, “Go in quest of knowledge even unto China.” I cannot understand from where Boko Haram is coming, but I presume it is anti-western sentiment. We have similar conflicts across the world, with young girls in Afghanistan being targeted because they are learning to read and write.

Nigeria is now Africa’s largest economy and has the continent’s largest oil reserves. It has a child population of 10.5 million, but only 4% of girls in northern Nigeria complete secondary school. Is the emergence of Boko Haram a symptom of the tensions within Nigerian society? While the situation in Biafra has settled down, there are many tensions within the country, many of which are down to inequalities. I have spoken to people who have travelled there who have told me that there is a lot of wealth but large extremes in poverty. What is the Nigerian Government doing to tackle societal inequalities? What is happening to the oil revenues? We condemn what happened to the schoolgirls and selling them as slaves for $10. There is no humanity in Boko Haram and no sympathy around this table for what it is doing. If there is anything we can do, we will do it, as this needs to stop. However, there are problems within Nigeria and I would like to get my head around some of the difficulties. Is Boko Haram a symptom of something that is wrong in Nigeria that needs to be fixed? I would like to hear about the peace talks, but if the ambassador cannot refer to them, I will understand.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I welcome the ambassador. I take the opportunity to acknowledge the work of the outgoing Irish ambassador to Nigeria, Mr. Paddy Fay, and wish his successor, Mr. Sean Hoy, every success, as well as a productive and positive time in Nigeria and other west African countries.

When we listened to what had happened to the schoolgirls, I cannot help but recall the Dublin second level schoolgirls I saw earlier in the Visitors Gallery in the Dáil and their safe access to primary and second level education, as well as the opportunity to attend third level, if that is their choice. I know the Cuban ambassador is present at the meeting. I am aware of the amazing work that has been done in Cuba since the revolution to ensure everyone in that country is educated. The whole thrust of Boko Haram is to deprive girls of an education and bring them back to the status of slaves in feudal times. If we deprive girls of an education, we are also depriving the education system of female teachers whom we all acknowledge are excellent role models in so many countries.

Several years ago, when Madeleine McCann went missing in Portugal, there was a massive outcry and massive media attention for that one girl. While I accept the efforts to ensure the safe return of the 200 schoolgirls in Nigeria that the ambassador outlined, there was an obvious lack of urgency at the beginning on the part of the Nigerian Government to deal with the abduction. There was a lacklustre response and I do not accept that it had happened in a remote area. There could have been more focus on the event when it happened. Would it have been left as a sideline issue, were it not for international pressure and attention?

Do we have all of the names of the girls abducted?

Do we know who their families are in the event that some of them are trafficked out of Africa so that other countries can watch out for them and know who they are? There were reports that defence forces in the area knew that something was coming and did not have the necessary troops to repel this incursion by Boko Haram. Are Nigerian troops infiltrated by Boko Haram? Given that Nigeria has so many resources and such a vast population, why are more resources not going to the defence authorities to ensure people are safe? What has declaring a state of emergency actually achieved? Does the ambassador know who is arming Boko Haram?

Chairman

There are a lot of questions there between Deputies Crowe and O'Sullivan, so perhaps the ambassador could answer some of those.

H. E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

My first answer is in response to Deputy Crowe. He talked about structural problems. Perhaps I should provide brief background information about Nigeria. Nigeria celebrated its centenary anniversary in January marking 100 years of amalgamation. Nigeria has a population of between 160 and 170 million and contains more than 250 ethnic groups. What form of government would have been most suitable? The committee may be aware that the 1954 constitution made Nigeria a federal structure to address some of these concerns. There were three regions in 1954 and we now have 36 states. It aims to address some of the issues about which Deputy Crowe spoke such as marginalisation and deprivation. Our constitution contains a federal character commission. It is designed to see that positions are rationalised in terms of personnel in various statutory bodies. It also relates to the distribution of socioeconomic resources such as roads, schools, hospitals and so on. We had challenges with Biafra but I do not know of any country in Africa that went through a three year civil year that has had the kind of reconciliation we have had in Nigeria given the complexity I have just explained. We have more than 250 ethnic groups. No doubt there are challenges, but we are trying to address them through measures such as the federal structure.

There are a number of cultural factors relating to girls' education. Initially, Islamic education was emphasised but my colleague here is a Muslim and he will tell the committee that after Islamic education, many of the girls about whom we are talking embrace Western education. It is a deliberate government policy. There were no ladies in very senior appointments 30 or 40 years ago. Today, the chief justice of Nigeria is a lady and a lady has just been appointed to the court of appeal. For the first time in the history of Nigeria, there are about 11 female ministers and 18 secretaries general. We are aiming to get the number to 20 out of 42, which is a major step. I am not saying we have reached it but I want the committee to appreciate where we are coming from. It is important. I should also underscore that in the 54 years of independence from 1960, only 25 governments have been civilian. A total of 29 governments have been under military control. The committee knows what military rule is. It involves suspending a constitution. I know what many people said in 2003 when we had the first transition from one civilian government to another. People thought that hell would be let loose, but this did not happen. I agree that we have had challenges but we are trying our best to manage them.

In terms of the poverty that was alluded to, the current government has introduced a number of programmes. There is a programme called SURE-P, which stands for Subsidy, Re-investment & Empowerment. What does it mean? It means that if, after the budget, we have resources that are above what was budgeted for, that extra amount is put into programmes like start-up programmes for small and medium-sized enterprises, particularly for young college graduates and even for village women who want to start up small businesses. This programme is in its third year and has been a very big success. There is a programme called Youth Enterprise with Innovation in Nigeria, YouWiN, which identifies promising young entrepreneurs and their businesses. They are selected and linked up with a bank called the Bank of Industry to help them access credit to improve their businesses.

The war on terror does not merely involve the military-criminal aspect, on which I dwelt. The government has many programmes. Within the past year, we saw the national agricultural plan, the national industrial plan, the national health summit, the national sports summit and the national water summit. These have never been held in the history of the country. These are major five year programmes that are designed to address some of the challenges we face in the area of infrastructure. One was also held on education. The committee will be interested to note that every year we have about one million qualified students for third level education. Unfortunately, only half - between 400,000 and 500,000 - get that. It is because of this that in the past two years the current government has set up seven new universities to address this. Many of the programmes I mentioned are in partnership with the private sector to see how we can create jobs. In 2013, 1.1 million jobs were created in Nigeria. It is a still a long way off but we are trying our best.

In looking at these matters, it is important to see where we are coming from. I hope I have addressed most of the issues that have been raised. There is no doubt that poverty exists but poverty is not a licence to kill innocent people. We appreciate and acknowledge that there are challenges but that does not mean that one takes the lives of innocent people. If we start behaving like that, we will slide into anarchy.

Deputy O'Sullivan raised the issue of girls' education. I want to state that there are special programmes designed to encourage girls' education in Nigeria, particularly in northern Nigeria. We must admit that there have been cultural challenges but many of these communities are now realising that they need to educate their girls. This has been achieved through an aggressive campaign by the government, meetings, training programmes and showcasing those who have gone to school. As I mentioned, the current chief justice of Nigeria is a lady. For the first time, a two star general in the navy is a lady. These things were unheard of. It is a challenge in the police force but I can assure the committee it is being aggressively addressed.

I tend to disagree with Deputy O'Sullivan regarding a lack of urgency in seeing to the rescue of these girls. As I mentioned earlier, there are issues that it is not appropriate for us to discuss in a public hearing, which is why I do not want to go into details. It is the same thing regarding the question of whether troops were infiltrated. I do not wish to comment on it in this kind of setting. In a normal situation, one must follow certain procedures to pass laws, particularly those relating to the security of lives and property. The state of emergency means that one may waive some of these procedures that are required by the parliament to enable the government to take certain actions, for example, in the area of movement and communication. If necessary, one can suspend communication by mobile phones and so on. That is what it means. This measure was taken in full consultation. The security officials and members of the armed forces were invited to a meeting by both Houses of Parliament - the Senate and the House of Representatives.

Extensive discussions were held on whether it was necessary to continue with the state of emergency and they agreed to it. It was not the case that the President had decided to impose a state of emergency. Elders from the three states have met the President on several occasions and, as one would expect in a democracy, many people argued against the need to declare a state of emergency. The question that arose for them what to suggest as an alternative, but they could not produce a credible alternative. In a democracy, when one wants to substitute one option for another, one should be able to show the viability of the options proposed. It became very clear that, while people may have disagreed with the imposition of the state of emergency, in the scenario it seemed to be the better option.

The question on Boko Haram is interesting. I do not think the issues are confined to Nigeria. Most countries, both in the sub-region and on the African continent, now acknowledge that it must be part of the worldwide illegal network for the trafficking of arms. This is becoming obvious. What does this portend for the world? There is a need for increased co-operation and vigilance. In Nigeria we started a national identity card project several years ago. After many years of delay, it was launched last year, with the inclusion of a system for biometric identification. This forms part of our long-term goals. Similarly for the banking system, we know how financial institutions can contribute to money laundering and trafficking. This is how groups get the money for arms. A number of steps have been taken in this regard. We are introducing biometric identification for bank accounts in order that when somebody withdraws a certain amount of money, his or her identity can be known. These are examples of the long-term measures we are implementing to address the issues involved. They will not be easy to address, but I assure the committee that the government is not resting.

I hope I have thrown light on members' questions.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I welcome and thank the ambassador for his presentation. We have all expressed our support, in various ways, for the efforts to find the abducted girls and return them to their families. It was an act of aggression and oppression by a group which believed in its own superiority. The fact is that 50% of the population, that is, women, were not regarded as being entitled to freedom of access to education. We should compliment the girls from Finglas who identified with the abducted girls and wrote to the Chairman to express their concern. They did something that was within their ambit. Perhaps people throughout the globe might have done a little bit more or acted a little quicker, whether in Nigeria or elsewhere. It may well be a difficult and sensitive issue and I hope the negotiations are successful, but the degree to which this behaviour is accepted in a modern society in any part of the globe is frightening. A couple of years ago an attempt was made on the life of a young girl in Pakistan because of her opposition to the ongoing campaign to prevent girls from getting an education. That attempt failed, but there is continuing aggression against and suppression of women and girls. This behaviour is unacceptable in any society, regardless of its origins.

I ask the extent to which the international community has come on board to offer assistance. In a case of this nature, there should be no circumstances in which offers of help are refused. It is essential that every possible avenue be explored to ensure the perpetrators of this deed are given a clear indication there is no safe place for them and that there is no way they can win. Deprivation of education is deprivation of freedom and human rights. In regard to human rights, it is sad that might seek to overcome right, even at this time. The most worrying factor is that the victims were vulnerable and that their rights were overcome and set aside by those who see themselves as occupying a superior position. It must be extraordinarily scary for young women and girls in Nigeria and other countries beset by similar activities.

I acknowledge that individual members of the committee have previously raised this issue with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. The European Union is also acting on it. The United Nations should also take action and I hope it is making a serious effort to impress on those involved that this action is unacceptable. Everything that can be done should be done to highlight the issue. We should all express the hope that the girls who are the victims in this case will be returned home safe and sound.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I welcome the ambassador and extend my personal good wishes to his country in solving the problem of Boko Haram and, more particularly, securing the safe return to their mothers and families of the 200 children who were kidnapped. I understand 100 or more are still in captivity.

I do not want to fight with the ambassador, but I fundamentally disagree with his statement that the insurgency is not a religious war as both Christians and Muslims have been killed. It is most definitely a religious war. The fact that Muslims are being killed means that they are being killed by more extreme Muslims. The fact that the mosques of these Muslims are being burned by Boko Haram clearly indicates that the group wants to create an Islamist state in Nigeria. The group consists of religiously motivated sectarian thugs and gangsters who represent the Islamists of the world. As the ambassador pointed out, Islamists - Al Shabab - murdered the daughter of the Kenyan ambassador in Nairobi. There is a horrible Christian-Muslim conflict in the Central African Republic and we are trying to stabilise the conflict in Somalia. In Sudan there is a similar conflict and we have seen what has happened in Niger recently.

Had France not intervened, Mali would have been completely overrun. It goes as far as Mauritania and the ambassador mentioned the porous border between Cameroon and Nigeria. Across Africa a war is being fought by primitive Islamists who do not represent mainstream Islam and are an affront to mainstream Muslims, hence the violence they inflict on them. It is a tragedy that we are dealing with this issue because we would love to be able to say Nigeria was a model country. It has a growth rate of 6.6%. We keep talking about the African countries that are doing so well economically and changing the face of Africa, yet we are plunged into barbarity by these Islamist terrorists linked with al-Qaeda.

I know the area very well and have used the porous border illegally, having travelled from Niger into Nigeria and across to Cameroon via Maiduguri. I have very fond memories of Maiduguri and Kano. A very strong argument has been made that Nigeria is a very wealthy country, having produced approximately €80 billion worth of oil, and that it is reaping the consequences of the neglect of the poorer north on security grounds, among other reasons. Is the northern region economically depressed, hence the ability of Boko Haram to recruit those who feel disenfranchised from the Muslim community? Will the ambassador explain to us who, as westerners, have not fully come to terms with the concept of Muslim Islamists how the central government of Nigeria relates to the 12 northern states of Nigeria which apply Sharia law? We can clearly see that Boko Haram is unsatisfied with the extent to which Sharia law is applied there and wants, as we can see from its behaviour with the young girls in question, a different type of law. How do the political structures of Nigeria operate when there is the application of such laws in the north?

People have been locked into state schools and burned to death. The schools from which the girls were kidnapped were state-funded. These groups are attacking the state education system. I congratulate the Nigerian Government on trying to provide a state educational infrastructure. Does the ambassador agree that the northern sector has been neglected economically and is, therefore, ripe ground for groups such as Boko Haram to recruit from the Muslim community and pursue an Islamist war of attrition against Nigeria?

Senator Michael Mullins

I welcome the ambassador and our distinguished visitors, particularly the students from Finglas, whom I compliment on making contact with the committee and encouraging us to keep this issue at the top of our agenda. One can only imagine the awful situation experienced by the parents and siblings of the young girls who are missing and the urgent need to address the problem. Other speakers have referred to the fact that in the early stages it appeared that the government was slow to react to the abduction of these children. How significant is the publicity and media attention in Nigeria given to the fact that so many school children are missing?

I appreciate that the ambassador cannot comment much on operational matters and what is being done within Nigeria regarding negotiations and discussions. Is consideration being given to taking up the offers of assistance by the many countries which want to help Nigeria to address this issue? I am very encouraged by some of the statistics the ambassador has given for the growth of universities and the numbers of women pursuing third level education. Is there a link between this issue and Nigeria's human rights record which is not particularly wonderful? I am thinking of legislation that has been passed on same sex marriage and civil unions and the treatment of members of the gay community. Are there underlying issues, as well as an attempt to prevent the education of women in Nigeria?

What would the ambassador like this committee and the Irish Government to do to assist Nigeria in bringing about a resolution of this issue and helping to have the girls returned to their families as a matter of urgency?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

I share most of the sentiments exprssed in Deputy Bernard J. Durkan's commentary. We should uphold the education of girls, which is part of the challenge we face. It is a very abnormal, awkward situation. We thought we were moving in the right direction before this unfortunate destruction. As I mentioned, while we may have had some cultural issues, we had moved much further. The constitution and education Acts encourage the education of girls. I hope members will visit Nigeria one of these days to see and understand what I am saying. I agree with most of the statements made - it is a violation of human rights. Nigeria is a member of the Human Rights Council. As a nation, we came from military rule but have made tremendous progress.

I disagree with Deputy Eric Byrne. We must be very clear. The fact that a group wants to create an Islamic state does not make the current insurgency a religious war. They are two different things. People could use religion for political purposes, but that does not mean a country is experiencing a religious war. We are nowhere near what Lebanon experienced in the past. This issue is very clear. The constitution makes it clear that Nigeria is a secular state. When an insurgent group states it wants to create an Islamic state and has been wreaking havoc, we should be very cautious in trying to understand the facts. As far as I know, BBC journalists have been to Chibok. I have mentioned that the press in Nigeria is one of the freest. People have been there and seen. I am not aware of any religious war in Nigeria. Which country does not have religious skirmishes from time to time? Does this degenerate to calling it a religious war?

These are some of the things I want the committee to have. I mentioned information management. In this kind of a delicate situation that we are in, it is important. Some of our journalists do not seem to understand the complexity of the issues and the challenges. It is not just making news but trying to get the correct news for people to understand the issues. That is equally important. We have a freedom of information Act but its use must be weighted. It is just like the talk about human rights. If it violates somebody else's rights, what rights are we talking about then? We should try to distinguish clearly this question of religious war or religious commissions and so on before we get into very dicey situations.

Reference was made to the relationship with the federal Government. We have a constitution that recognises three types of government: federal, 36 states at the intermediate level and 774 local government areas similar to counties in Ireland. The jurisdiction of the courts is clear. Even where there are Sharia courts, they are predominantly Islamic states. One also has to look at the issues brought before those courts. Apart from Islamic courts, we have customary area courts. They would not have the traditional high courts or magistrates courts that are familiar to most people in the western world so it is important to understand these distinctions. If there is Sharia law in, say, Kebbi state, first, one has to be a Muslim to be subjected to that kind of law, second, there is a customary area court if one is not a Muslim and then we have the magistrate courts and as one climbs the ladder, one goes to the state high court, then to the federal high court and to the court of appeal and the supreme court. It is important for people to understand this distinction and not assume that when Sharia law is mentioned, it is just applied. The limitation of powers is not as neat as we think it is and sometimes one has to go to court to clarify some of the issues.

Reference was then made to economic deprivation in the north. It could be a factor and I do not rule it out. It is easier to recruit somebody who is hungry and unemployed than somebody who is well fed and has a job but that cannot also be a licence to foment problems. Does it mean if we are past our problems, it now gives us a right to attack certain people when we have clear laws that guide these things? I have mentioned so many avenues for people to seek redress from the Public Complaints Commission to even the Federal Character Commission. If a particular state or part of Nigeria feels it is being marginalised, it has every right to raise it after the courts. That organisation will be asked to bring documents. There is the press like I mentioned. We have parliamentary committees at the state and federal level where people can seek redress.

With regard to the economic depression the member mentioned, people have brought issues such as why a project was not sited in a location or why routes or schools were not constructed. These are taken into consideration at budgetary sessions. Even in the north east, there will be spatial provision to address many of the issues and challenges that were mentioned from security of schools to economic infrastructure that has been destroyed. For example, electricity lines, mobile telephone towers and so on have been vandalised. It is a comprehensive programme and it is complex. It has to be divided into short term, medium term and long term. The Government was not enthusiastic in replying with force to force but was left with little or no option.

I agree that economic deprivation could be a factor but I do not know whether I have the time to go into this because I do not want to get into the blame game of how these things evolved. The important thing is if there are economic challenges, I believe the way forward is what should be done to address them. This is what the Government has been trying to do, even though we have a federal structure with a National Economic Council where the federal and state governments meet regularly to address many of these issues. In a federal structure, some states are far richer than others and, therefore, one must find a way and see how one brings up those that are less fortunate in terms of resources - human, natural and so on.

In response to Senator Mullins, media attention was quite high. We have more than 100 newspapers, more than 100 radio stations and approximately 200 television stations. No issue has generated more coverage apart from soccer. To emphasise the seriousness of this matter, this is a fairly new phenomenon and I believe it has brought greater awareness of our security that we used to take for granted. Community policing is what the federal Government has been working hard on to see if we learn the principles of such policing from other societies where the police will collaborate with the village, districts and communities and exchange views on how many of these problems can be addressed.

On human rights, Nigeria passed a law on same-sex marriage. That is just one aspect. We need to understand this thing from a proper cultural perspective. The analogy I use when I am asked about this by people is the way many western people react when they hear about polygamy in Africa. People find it strange here. Likewise when one mentions same-sex marriage, people begin to wonder probably because it is not the practice. I believe many of us know it is not because something is wrong but simply because one is not used to it, one tends to think it is wrong probably by one's own assessment. I do not know whether there is any empirical validation of some of the cultural beliefs we hold today.

We have come a long way on human rights. In the past ten or 15 years and particularly in the past three years, one can see the commendable achievements of our law enforcement agencies. We have tried to learn from best practice in peackeeping operations, on which we have worked closely with Ireland. I believe every country still has challenges but it is also important to see the progress that has been made and how we can make better progress.

The committee can help us to throw light on some of these issues that people understand. A few year ago, many countries thought they could take on the security challenges alone but, day by day, we are seeing that it is becoming more intractable and complex and even in some countries it would appear there is a safe haven for some of these elements.

I believe the meeting in France, the UN Security Council resolution and the action taken by the African Union and ECOWAS are a clear indiction that we are moving in the right direction. We in Nigeria are very optimistic that, given the support we are getting from very many friendly countries, we shall make headway. All of us are concerned and are praying that the girls will be brought to safety. That is the fundamental issue that concerns the Government as we speak.

If there is any issue I did not address, the members might let me know.

Senator Jim Walsh

I thank the ambassador for coming to share his insights with us on this matter. Obviously, all of our minds have been concentrated on the abduction of those unfortunate girls and, of course, we would wish that everything possible be done in order to get their safe release. It is something of a reflection on the UN and the Western media that the huge focus has only now arisen on this issue because, going back over a number of years, there have been many atrocities. Last year, for example, 29 students were burned alive at a school in northern Nigeria, which probably got one article and that was the end of it for some of our newspapers. A couple of months later, 40 more students were killed and, in February of this year, 59 boys attending a boarding school were shot dead. These atrocities have been ongoing.

The ambassador mentioned that this has been an issue since 2009. My understanding is that the group which is now called Boko Haram emerged following the 9/11 atrocities in the US, and that Mohammed Yusuf, the young man who established this group, went on to embrace a Taliban-inspired model of education in order to move away from Western education and towards the Koranic sciences. He was apparently arrested in 2009 and died in custody while he was handcuffed. Has that not led to a very significant increase in the radicalisation of that group and in the atrocities it has committed? I do not know that anybody has been brought to justice for that murder. As we know in this country, when British authorities got involved in murdering our citizens, it fed into the campaign, which continued because of the sympathy this generated. What is being done to bring those perpetrators to justice? That is my first question.

Second, the ambassador said it was categorically clear that the insurgency is not a religious war, as both Christians and Muslims have been killed and had their places of worship destroyed. As I said earlier, this issue has not been particularly well publicised in this country and the same is probably the case elsewhere in the Western world. My understanding is that many of these atrocities have concentrated on the Christian community and that various murders have taken place in churches around the main Christian holidays of Christmas and Easter. Indeed, it is significant that in Abuja, the capital of Nigeria, 70 people were killed at Easter. I feel there is a sectarian element to this which probably reflects what is happening in many locations where there is conflict and where Islamic extremists are involved in those conflicts.

I understand there are 17,000 refugees in Cameroon, Chad and Niger. The Jubilee Campaign, which is an aid group that has been functioning in Nigeria, has urged the Nigerian Government to bring those refugees back to Nigeria. It has also been campaigning for the UN and Western Governments to set up a victim relief fund in Nigeria. What assistance is the Nigerian Government getting on that front from the UN and Western countries?

I welcome some of the conference's recommendations, particularly those urging greater cohesion between the neighbouring countries. Is it not the case that Nigeria itself will need more external assistance from an intelligence and perhaps a military point of view in order to bring this conflict to an end? The conflict has been increasing over recent years. It is probably a reflection on the bodies charged with dealing with this, and on ourselves to an extent, as politicians in the Western world, that we have only come very belatedly to focus on it. I hope these girls will be released, but I would hate to think that afterwards the focus would move elsewhere rather than remaining on bringing this conflict to a conclusion. What does the ambassador believe Ireland and the European Union can do to assist that effort?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

As far as we can trace, Boko Haram emerged as a movement in 2002 but, as the Senator mentioned, it really became radicalised in 2009. With regard to the prosecution of the perpetrators, some of the demands they have been sending through social media and other methods have called for the release of some of their comrades. It is true there are many, including women, who have been arrested and detained. While the prosecution is taking a long time, the Attorney General some weeks ago mentioned the steps that have been taken to prosecute them in court. Part of the reason for the delay is that the normal judicial process takes longer due to the need for evidence and other issues, but there is an attempt to address the issues so they can be brought to justice. There is no doubt some of these people have been arrested and are in detention, even in Abuja.

To come back to the religious issue-----

Senator Jim Walsh

Excuse me. Have the perpetrators of the murder of Mohammed Yusuf been brought to justice? It would appear the police were involved in that, given that he was in custody. Such issues breed the kind of radicalism we have seen arising-----

Chairman

We will allow the ambassador to conclude and I will then let Senator Walsh back in.

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

I understand those issues were investigated. I know there was an internal inquiry but, so long as that is not made public, I cannot comment on what actually happened. From media reports, I know there was an investigation into the circumstances in which he died.

The Senator's question has brought another dimension to the religious issue concerning these radical groups. We have to be careful in that some of these groups give the impression they are working for a particular religion. Initially, as the Senator said, they were attacking churches, but it was not much longer before they started attacking mosques. Sometimes they do these things to confuse people. Even mainstream religious people do not understand what is happening. The challenge for the international community is to try to understand this issue properly. My own personal view, from studying the issue, is that I do not believe we will learn clearly where this came from and where it is going to. The complication has been the link to al-Qaeda and al-Shabaab. The average person in Nigeria does not see a link, but it is becoming clear that this is a very sophisticated group. This is a new phenomenon in Nigeria, where we have never seen any group of this type.

They have machine guns and vehicles. Many of them are well trained. There was a briefing by defence headquarters last year. Another important question is where are they getting all of their support, and it would be good to establish this. It is becoming increasingly clear that it is international. Wherever it comes from, we can see from the consequences on the ground that it is not just a ragtag bunch perpetrating all of this.

I do not know whether the 10 million Nigerians can be considered refugees. Yes, they were internally displaced, and this has happened in South Sudan, the Democratic Republic of Congo and the eastern part of Nigeria. No doubt they had no choice but to move, because these people are simply callous and do not spare women, children or the elderly. The Nigerian national emergency agency is examining it. A team from the United States came to assist with logistics and the national emergency agency is working hard to address this question. When they visited they assured us they were looking into the matter of displaced people across the borders with Niger, Cameroon and Chad.

With regard to support from the UN and Western countries, if people are not aware of a danger they can fall into a trap. An important step this committee and other European parliamentarians can take is to help the public understand the seriousness of the matter. It is important that people are aware. When people are aware they will understand the serious danger we are in. As I have mentioned several times, it is not a battle for one or several countries; it should be worldwide, because it is sophisticated and involves money-laundering, drug trafficking, trafficking small arms and human trafficking. Nigeria has established a body to address the matter of human trafficking.

A major challenge in Nigeria is that we need logistical assistance such as intelligence support. Approximately 20,000 troops are involved in the operation in three states. A new division was created. Previously we had four divisions but a special division was created to address the problem in the three states I mentioned. We are looking to countries with better experience than us, particularly with regard to intelligence.

Something introduced in the west African subdivision which might be helpful is the early warning system. We discovered that part of the problem which led to political conflicts was a slow response. Issues started with disputes over electoral votes and other such mundane things but before one knew it, it had escalated into very serious violence. It is important to examine certain indicators which tend to show this is what is likely to happen. We must also work hard to see what mechanisms to put in place to address this matter. The strategy must change to meet the challenges of the times in which we live now.

Senator Jim Walsh

The issue of Boko Haram came up on the doorstep of a Nigerian national in New Ross during canvassing for the recent elections. Mr. Pwol mentioned the availability of arms to Boko Haram. Has Nigeria ratified the arms trade treaty which went through the UN last summer?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

Nigeria was the second African country to do so.

Chairman

On a different note, as the ambassador departs our shores, will he make a brief comment on Irish-Nigerian bilateral relations, particularly the number of trade visits and other visits we have had recently? How does he see Ireland moving forward with Nigeria?

H.E. Mr. Felix Yusufu Pwol

Relations have been strengthened in the almost three years I have been here. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Joe Costello, has been to Nigeria twice. Last year he went with a trade delegation comprising 17 companies. We also see increasing co-operation in the memorandum of understanding signed with University College Cork. I was able to organise a visit to Nigeria where those who travelled met the presidents of approximately ten universities to discuss collaboration in teaching, research and student exchange programmes. I also initiated a similar programme in Waterford Institute of Technology, and people from there also went to Nigeria and met the presidents of approximately 12 polytechnics. As a result of this visit, two memorandums of understanding have been signed, with Federal Polytechnic Oko and Yaba College of Technology, which is our oldest college of technology.

Irish companies such as Diageo, and previously Guinness, have traditionally been in Nigeria, and the construction company PW has been there for almost 40 years. Other construction companies such as McNamara Construction are moving into Nigeria. Glanbia and PZ Cussons are working together in Nigeria on dairy production. We are examining the area of agriculture, particularly fisheries. I was in Donegal five weeks ago and Premier Fish has been investing much in Nigeria. This is an area we want to examine.

I forgot to mention education and e-learning. We are trying to implement best practice in education. I mentioned the challenge we have in third level education, and we believe that if we put in place a mechanism for e-learning it would help a great deal.

We have challenges in other areas such as infrastructure, including boat transportation, and aviation, particularly leasing aircraft. At present we are modernising 22 airports and we believe the Irish will help us. We also face a big challenge with energy. Last year a delegation came and had very good discussions and site visits. I cannot remember which body was involved.

Relations are moving in the right direction. I could not quite achieve an exchange of visits between the two Parliaments, which I think we need to work on, and I hope my successor will take it up. The lower chamber of the Nigerian Parliament has 360 members and there are 109 senators in the other chamber. The only presidential visit between the two countries was in June 2002. I had hoped the foreign minister would go but I could not find a suitable time; Ireland chaired the OSCE in 2012 and during the first half of last year it held the rotating Presidency of the Council of the EU, which made it difficult. We hope, towards the end of the year or early in the new year, to have an official ministerial summit-level visit. It is interesting that we are seeing increased interest in trade from both Ireland and Nigeria.

Chairman

I thank the ambassador and wish him well in his new role in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I thank him for his services in this country. He worked very closely with the Irish ambassador, Mr. Fay, in Abuja. We are delighted that another expert in Nigeria, Sean Hoy, has been appointed ambassador and we know he will work with Mr. Pwol's successor.

I acknowledge the presence of Mr. Umar Ahmed Abba, whom I know will continue to bat for his country with Ireland in the coming years. I thank both delegates for attending today's meeting and for answering the questions so frankly. As they will have noted, the members are very interested in what is happening in Nigeria. This is a good sign of the relations that exist between the two Parliaments. We had a most interesting and wide-ranging discussion. I hope the ambassador has had a very fruitful and enjoyable experience in Ireland. We wish him luck in his new post.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.10 p.m. and adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 2.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 June 2014.