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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 2017

Implications of Brexit for Foreign Policy: Dr. Karen Devine, DCU

Apologies for their absence have been received from Senator Billy Lawless and Deputy Darragh O'Brien. Today we are meeting with Dr. Karen Devine of the Dublin City University, DCU, school of law and government, as part of a series of meetings on the potential impact of Brexit on areas identified as falling within the remit of this committee. At the end of a series of hearings over the coming weeks the committee will prepare a report on relevant aspects of the potential impact of Brexit. On behalf of the committee I welcome you, Dr. Devine, and look forward to hearing your presentation. As a highly acclaimed academic with published papers on Irish foreign policy and given your recent work on Irish foreign policy post-Brexit, it will assist the committee greatly in contributing towards Government policy during and after the period of Brexit negotiations. The format of the meeting is that we will hear your opening statement before going into a question and answer session with the members of the committee.

Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and people in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference, even on silent mode, with the recording and broadcasting equipment in the committee room. Today's meeting is being broadcast live on Oireachtas TV and also across the various media platforms.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Dr. Devine to make her opening remarks.

Dr. Karen Devine

I thank you Chairman, Deputy Brendan Smith, the Vice Chairman, Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, and the members of the committee for the invitation to appear before the committee to discuss the implications of Brexit for Irish foreign policy.

I am honoured to present the summary points taken from a full paper in preparation for a submission to the Oireachtas committee. The paper is based on theoretical frameworks and robust empirical evidence.

When I was first approached to speak on the topic, the question of the nature of Irish foreign policy was the first to come to mind. If Brexit is the independent variable in this political equation - the causal mechanism that has effects on Irish foreign policy - the question of the nature of the dependent variable remains. What is Irish foreign policy? How do we know what is the foreign policy of Ireland? These questions are central to addressing key questions surrounding the effects of Brexit on Irish foreign policy.

The topic of foreign policy assumes the exercise of state sovereignty in the execution of policy aimed at influencing external events and actors in the interests of the state. This is normally a function undertaken by a government in a democracy on behalf of and reflective of the values, identities and interests of a majority of people in the state. Two parts of the dependent variable issue need to be identified. The first is what foreign policy is and the second is to which state it relates. The answer for most people would be self-evident, but I assure the committee that in the case of Irish foreign policy the answers are not what we might expect. I will explain why. Before I get into the substance of the presentation, I wish to point out that perhaps the majority of the members of the committee will not like what I have to say. Nonetheless, I will pull no punches in the presentation in accordance with the need to put these points on the record for the people.

In summary, I have three main points to make. First, Irish foreign policy today bears no relation whatsoever to the foreign policy of the State as established and practised in the first 60 years of the existence of the State. Ten fundamental changes have materialised, five of which involve complete U-turns in policy during the past 40 years, in particular, during the past ten years. As a result of these U-turns, my analysis can only meaningfully focus on what is left of Irish foreign policy and the future of these remnants in the wake of the UK exit from the European Union.

The second point is that the European Union today bears no relation to the form of regional co-operation and organisation established almost 60 years ago in the area of security and defence. I will outline the radical changes the EU has undergone, especially in respect of the common foreign and security policy and the common security and defence policy. I will explain how in some ways these have hastened the cause of Brexit and constitute the context that will have significant potential negative effects on what is left of Irish foreign policy.

The third point relates to charting the approach of the Government to Brexit based on the evidence of key Brexit discourses. This also helps to explain why Irish foreign policy has undergone such radical transformation in recent years. Crucially, it helps to explain why its potential demise in the future is inevitable unless the Government's approach returns to the role expected of it in a normal functioning democracy. Although this third point is rather foreboding, there is some hope for a turnaround in Irish foreign policy fortunes. However, the realisation of this hope and goal depends on the response of the members of this committee, the Oireachtas, the media, NGOs and, in particular, the activism of Irish public opinion.

I will set out what I referred to as the dependent variable of Irish foreign policy. Presumably, the point of asking for an analysis of the effects of Brexit on Irish foreign policy implies that there is some merit in seeking to understand what Irish foreign policy will look like in the wake of the UK exit from the EU.

To begin, I will focus on an outline of the "before" picture of Irish foreign policy. Although Ireland was an identifiable nation for many centuries, there was no official Irish foreign policy due to lack of statehood, autonomy and independence. Despite the absence of sovereign representation and agency, we can know the values and identity of Irish foreign policy through the discourses and practices of pivotal Irish leaders throughout our nation's long history, namely, Theobald Wolfe Tone in the 1700s; Daniel O'Connell in the 1800s; and Pádraic Pearse, James Connolly and Seán Lester in the early 1900s.

Having established independent statehood in the wake of numerous rebellions, including the Easter Rising of 1916, the War of Independence and the subsequent Civil War, we can identify the official ethos and elements of Irish foreign policy through the discourses and practices of official State figures, such as the former Minister for External Affairs, Frank Aiken, and the former Taoiseach, Éamon de Valera, up until the mid-1900s. There is a remarkable consistency of the ethos and elements of Irish foreign policy in the discourses and practices of these leaders over several centuries.

In two key periods, the early 1960s and the early 2000s, this consistency was broken and most elements of Irish foreign policy were abandoned and replaced, respectively, with European-mandated strictures in the context of Ireland's pursuit of membership of the European Economic Community and the European Union legally created by the Lisbon treaty. As a result, Irish foreign policy is now characterised by a struggle between the Government supporting interests-based EU common security and defence policy ambitions in contrast to State actors, such as mass public opinion, NGOs and non-governmental political parties, all of whom continue to adhere to the centuries-long norms of Irish foreign policy, such as independence and the values associated with neutrality.

What is Irish foreign policy today? When I explored the elements of Irish foreign policy norms through several centuries, I found that in the 1700s and 1800s peace within and outside Ireland was seen to be dependent on Irish independence. I will outline the foreign policy norms of Wolfe Tone and O'Connell. First, they were accorded through the values and policies of self-determination; anti-imperialism; Third World solidarity, in the form of being against African slavery and black racism in the USA; the rejection of famine, whether war-induced or political; slavery; and anti-war attitudes. Second, they were accorded through a reliance on international engagement and diaspora. Third, the norms served the need for justice, rights, resistance, non-retaliation, religious tolerance and the emancipation of the subjugated. Fourth, the norms were based on a patriotism that was almost exclusively Irish, themed with non-belligerency and non- aggression. Fifth, the norms were linked to the notion of a just war and neutrality in seeking to avoid being dragged into the wars of Britain and other great powers.

After the 1916 Rising and the establishment of an independent state, Éamon de Valera repeated these central norms of Irish foreign policy as articulated by Wolfe Tone, O'Connell and de Valera's 1916 comrade, Pádraic Pearse. He said that Ireland's contribution to world peace was based on the nation's self-determination and independence and that the corollary of Ireland's self-determination and independence was peace with neighbours and the world.

Gaining independence gave Ireland several options. It permitted the inclusion of these norms at the level of the individual, such as a personal rejection of conscription. It provoked an intensification of the norms of self-determination, independence, anti-imperialism and multi-level international engagement, including with diaspora. Furthermore, it added the opportunity to pursue several goals. I will outline these goals. The first was normative-based global institutional co-operative engagement. This was specifically conditional on the purpose and effectiveness of the engagement. The second was a constitutional commitment to peaceful resolution of disputes. The third was armed neutrality. The fourth related to the policies of UN peacekeeping. The fifth related to decolonisation. The sixth related to disarmament. The seventh related to anti-big power politics. The eighth related to non-membership of military alliances. The ninth related to an untied development aid policy underpinned by solidarity with the developing world as well as non-governmental organisation and missionary links. The tenth related to the facilitation of a normative, globally-focused Irish patriotism specifying that a good Irish patriot is a good member of the global community and an apostle for the rule of law in international affairs. I will return to this patriotism in the final part of my presentation.

Ireland's history of oppression is infused with her peace policy ethos and norms as well as her contribution to the world in the context of the conception of her national role. The 1980s was the last time the Government held that neutrality permitted what it termed the positive merits of Irish foreign policy. These merits included UN peacekeeping, the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, decolonisation narratives or initiatives, opposing South African apartheid, accepting refugees, opposing US funding of South American paramilitaries, increasing aid to the Third World, and supporting Palestinian self-determination.

As I mentioned, there have been several Irish foreign policy reversals and shifts in policy. Given the time constraints, I only have time to advert to five of these. The first policy reversal was the extension of EU political co-operation into military affairs. Until the end of the 1980s, successive Governments were against any EC role in military affairs or security and defence policy. This was affirmed in the Dáil by Deputy Collins:

Our positive neutrality is aimed at the promotion of peace as has been clearly established already by Ireland's traditional attitude to decolonisation, disarmament and peace-keeping issues in the United Nations.

It is being suggested that European political co-operation should be extended to military affairs. We are totally opposed to this idea.

The second reversal was the merger of the Western European Union, WEU, military alliance with the EU, and the third was signing up to the WEU's mutual defence clause or any version of a collective defence commitment. Again, that was stated in the Dáil. By the early 2000s, however, the Government had reversed all three positions.

With regard to the second policy reversal, namely, the WEU-EU merger, in June 1995 the governing Christian Democrats and the then German Foreign Minister, Mr. Klaus Kinkel, separately called for the EU to play a more significant defence role, proposing the gradual merger of the EU with the WEU, the European arm of NATO, and demanded the neutral states join it. In opposition, the then Fianna Fáil leader, Mr. Bertie Ahern, rejected the WEU-EU merger planned for inclusion in the Amsterdam Treaty. He stated, "We do not want to see the EU-WEU amalgamation or the incorporation in the treaty of alliance obligations or nuclear doctrines." In Government offices some months later, on 15 June 1999, the then Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Fianna Fáil's David Andrews, stated in the Dail that the question of integration of the WEU as an institution into the EU was problematic and should be dropped, and that the related issue of the WEU's Article V mutual defence commitment should be left to one side. At EU level, however, the Ahern-led Government had actually agreed to the WEU-EU merger in 1999, including the final element, which was the transfer of the Article V mutual defence clause to the EU. This happened through the draft 2004 constitution for Europe, which was reconstituted as the Lisbon Treaty and ratified by the Irish Government in 2009.

The third policy reversal concerns Ireland's WEU membership and the assumption of its mutual defence clause. Ireland's WEU membership through the "back door" of a merger of the WEU with the EU overturned official Government policy stated in the White Paper on foreign policy in 1996. It stated, "the Government will not be proposing that Ireland should seek membership of NATO or the Western European Union, or the assumption of their mutual defence guarantees." This was subsequently reiterated by the Ahern-led Government in Parliament when it was stated "Ireland was not a member of the WEU and had no intention of joining it." Past Irish leaders would have resisted the undemocratic, dishonest and potentially patronage-ridden tactics employed by the four big EU powers to secure the merger. The paper goes into that detail.

The fourth foreign policy reversal concerns the meaning of the concept of "military neutrality". By early 2004, neutrality had been narrowed down to a definition comprising the non-membership of "pre-existing military alliances with mutual automatic obligations". To fit the neutrals' proposed constitutional amendment for states' military responses to be optional rather than automatic, the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Brian Cowen, had proposed to the EU that the wording should be, "it may request that the other Member States give it aid and assistance by all the means in their power". The Irish Government and those of other neutral-states failed to have their amendment adopted during the negotiations over the constitution. The WEU's automatic mutual defence clause was inserted into the full text of the constitution that became the Lisbon Treaty, which, once ratified, resulted in the eradication of Irish "military" neutrality and effectively changed the Government's military neutrality concept to mean membership of this merged WEU military alliance.

The fifth and final policy reversal I will talk about concerns adopting what was called the "sharp end of peacekeeping" in the Petersberg Tasks and NATO-led missions. Mr. Bertie Ahern had agreed with the statement in the 1996 White Paper on foreign policy that "neutrality has come to be regarded as a touchstone in terms of our approach to international relations" and he added that "we are under no obligation to associate with pre-existing Cold War and nuclear based military alliances, even for peace-keeping purposes." Mr. Ahern reversed this policy seemingly without any level of serious debate regarding the legitimacy or effectiveness of PfP-linked NATO peace support or WEU Petersberg Tasks crisis management operations, stating a need to accept what he called organisational realities in Europe and the settled preference of all our partners to work mainly with and through existing structures in developing the European common foreign and security policy, CFSP. These are effectively the WEU and NATO. The Government was more concerned with constructing the EU as a global actor, seen through its claim that Ireland should participate to "signal the strength of the EU's capability to undertake a robust and large-scale mission."

Academics argue that the Irish Government has been neither honest nor realistic in executing "a clear move away from traditional UN operations in favour of the post Cold War model of 'tendered out' or delegated peace support operations." Neutral states have traditionally resisted power politics and high-intensity military operations, to the extent of questioning the motivations behind interventions in the Middle East, Africa and Asia by larger powers during the Cold War era. It is supposed that, in the post-Cold War era, "the end of purely alliance-driven policies left more space for an altruistic or value-driven foreign policy". Ireland's attributes as a neutral, post-colonial state with no history of interference or exploitation in other states make her a good peacekeeper and potentially a provider of good offices in conflict resolution. However, uncritical involvement in interests-oriented CSDP robust military interventions in Europe's near abroad will reduce Ireland's standing and defeat ethical foreign policy goals.

I will turn to the second part of my paper to consider the EU's ethos of a CFSP and a common security and defence policy, CSDP. Professor Giandomenico Majone is an academic who has written extensively on the EU. In this book, he states he has identified EU operating principles. The first is that integration has priority over all other competing values, including democracy, and the second is that EU decision-makers follow, wherever possible, the strategy of a fait accompli - the accomplished fact that makes opposition and public debate useless. The third is that ultimate ends are largely irrelevant. What counts, according to Professor Majone, are procedures and the expansion of European competences. He is largely correct. These strategies have been in evidence throughout the decision-making on EU policies, such as the introduction of monetary union, to the merger of the final elements of the WEU military alliance with the EU through the adoption of its mutual defence clause through Article 42.7 of the Treaty on European Union, as amended by the Lisbon Treaty. They are exemplified in the traumas inflicted on this State from multiple repeat referendums on Nice and Lisbon treaties, which were rejected due to the fact their foreign policy elements were seen to violate fundamental principles of Irish foreign policy and neutrality, to the imposition of an €85 billion debt on this State, which has been used to pay for what is arguably the reckless behaviour of financial institutions based on Wall Street that are still unregulated today.

Turning to foreign policy, the European Commission and Council have sought the eradication of neutrality. My paper goes into detail on this. Mr. Charles Haughey argued the following in Dáil Éireann from the Opposition benches:

Those who consciously or unconsciously are seeking to force us to abandon our neutrality are foolish in failing to appreciate the potential value of Irish neutrality to the Community in the international arena. Our neutrality emphasises the peaceful nature of the Community ...

Arguably, successive Irish leaders have failed to resist the demands from the EU to eradicate Irish neutrality.

The European Commission was equally hostile to the continuation of Austrian, Finnish and Swedish neutrality during their accession negotiations and suggested neutrality be effectively defined out of existence because of its incompatibility with future EU defence policy. The concept was narrowed to just one characteristic, non-membership of a military alliance, which meant the broader "active" neutrality policy attributes were stripped out. It was renamed "military neutrality".

In October 2002, the European Commission identified a new priority as an information topic for dissemination, "the role of the European Union in the World". The EU's CSDP main objective is enhancing the EU's image as a global actor. As Alyson Bailes said, regarding the genesis of the European security and defence policy, ESDP, in 1999, no one talked much at the time about doing something for the "good of the world" and many people were thinking about the good of Europe.

Arguably, the ESDP and CSDP are driven by France's desire to create a "Europe puissance" or European superpower against the "hyperpuissance" or hyper-power United States of America in the context of a perceived unipolar world created by the end of the Cold War.

One of the reasons for the lack of a common foreign policy at the EU level and the slower development of EU military capabilities, which should be capable of rivalling US capabilities, is the United Kingdom's traditional respect for what it calls the "special relationship" with USA and a desire to maintain NATO as a priority over and above the EU military alliances created by the WEU-EU merger.

With the UK exiting the EU’s common security and defence policy, CSDP, as part of Brexit, Ireland will be missing the one big state partner that was aligned with its own interests in trying to slow down the militarisation plans put in place for the EU to create what José Manuel Barroso has called a “post-imperialist" empire.

The EU-funded Ireland for Europe lobbying organisation, which campaigns to persuade Irish people to vote "Yes" to EU treaties in referendum campaigns, has pointed out that Ireland has never chosen to use its veto in EU negotiations. This is in contrast to countries like Denmark, a similarly sized state with a similar population, which has regularly exercised its veto and has actually opted out of the CSDP to protect its perceived interests. Ireland’s inability and unwillingness to use its veto, combined with the lack of the restraining effect of the UK on French and German military ambitions through the EU after Brexit, means that Ireland will, without doubt, acquiesce in becoming part and parcel of the EU's CSDP. She will, at best, abstain from military missions under permanent structured co-operation if they are not aligned with Irish foreign policy values and at worst, participate in such missions to be considered truly European or "one of the lads".

On 14 November 2016, the Council of the European Union adopted conclusions setting out the level of ambition and the way forward on the future development of EU security and defence policy and on implementing the EU's global strategy in this area. The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and the head of the European Defence Agency, EDA, proposed an implementation plan on security and defence in October 2016. A European Commission report is forthcoming, entitled the European defence action plan, and the leaders of the institutions of the EU and NATO concluded a joint declaration which was signed in Warsaw recently.

We must remember that the CSDP is an intergovernmental policy at EU level and the European Parliament has no role whatsoever in terms of decision-making. European Parliament co-decision had been a key demand of pro-EU campaigners in Irish referendum discourses, linked to their demand that the Irish people should fully support the EU's CSDP, but such democratic oversight through the European Parliament has never been achieved.

The EU seeks to develop the arms industry in Europe through establishing a European defence technological and industrial base, EDTIB. It seeks to “be able to respond with rapid and decisive action through the whole spectrum of crisis management tasks covered by Article 43" of the Treaty on European Union, TEU. The European Council highlights the importance of the mutual defence clause in Article 42.7 of the TEU in the achievement of this goal, along with the practice of CSDP missions or operations outside the EU’s borders. These missions require member states to allocate a sufficient level of expenditure for defence, as called for by the European Council in June 2015. The Council is seeking enhanced EU financial instruments, as well as “financial solidarity and other forms of burden sharing” for this purpose, which sounds like an ambition to introduce an instrument for defence spending similar to the eurozone's European Stability Mechanism, ESM, to which Ireland has committed €11 billion worth of assets. The European Commission President, Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker, has made no secret of the fact that he seeks “a new approach to building a European security union with the end goal of establishing a European army” and a number of German Government figures backed this call in November 2016. In this respect, the EU is attempting to put in place the European defence community that was called for before the establishment of the European Coal and Steel Community and EURATOM in the 1950s.

Finally, I wish to deal with the Irish Government's approach to Brexit and the consequences for Irish foreign policy. I see some contrasting values and interests of the Irish and British Governments in their respective leaders’ Brexit speeches, that is, the speeches of the British Prime Minister, Theresa May and the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny. In his Brexit speech, entitled, Ireland at the Heart of a Changing European Union, which was delivered on 15 February 2017, the Taoiseach said the following:

We are being buffeted by strong external forces — of politics, of economics and of technology. The greatest of these, of course, is Brexit. ... We must make sure that we shape that future for ourselves. I firmly believe that we can. My purpose today is to explain how.

He went on to say that in 2016:

as we commemorated the Centenary of the Easter Rising, we recalled the achievements of the revolutionary generation. ... It was a year of renewal — renewal of our sense of ourselves and of the values we hold dear. It is those enduring Irish values that will guide us safely through the stormy seas in the years ahead. The values of freedom and democracy, of openness, of tolerance, of community, of solidarity and of respect for others.

As members may notice, the Taoiseach's list of Irish values omits the 1916 values of anti-imperialism, independence, global patriotism and solidarity, specifically with colonised and decolonising nations. The Taoiseach went on to say:

our values are European values, too. They are the common values that animate our European Union. They are the values that bind us together as a Union of democratic states, working together for the greater good of our common European home.

My central point is that this narrative fails to recognise that in some respects, European Union foreign policy is driven by French foreign policy ambitions, cloaked in European multilateralism, to achieve "great power" or "global actor" status to rival US "hyper-puissance". These are not Irish foreign policy values in a traditional sense. The Taoiseach continued thus:

Three years after the Rising, in 1919, the First Dáil met to formally declare our independence. ... But that message contained an essential and abiding truth about Ireland — we are a European island nation.

The Taoiseach is wrong because what the "Message to the Free Nations of the World” actually said was that Ireland:

believes in freedom and justice as the fundamental principles of international law, because she believes in a frank co-operation between the peoples for equal rights against the vested privileges of ancient tyrannies, because the permanent peace of Europe can never be secured by perpetuating military dominion for the profit of empire but only by establishing the control of government in every land upon the basis of the free will of a free people.

These are the values, namely, resisting vested interests and ensuring peace in Europe through national sovereignty based on what the people of Ireland want in terms of their foreign policy.

The Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed on 6 December 1921. On 19 December 1921, Arthur Griffith said in Dáil Éireann:

It is the first Treaty that admits the equality of Ireland. ... We have brought back to Ireland her full rights and powers of fiscal control.

Successive Governments have actually given up control of this State’s fiscal policy through the EU bailout programme, which is something I go into forensic detail in my longer paper. These decisions on fiscal sovereignty indicate the fate of what is left of Irish foreign policy, which may also be sacrificed for the EU’s ambitions.

In his Brexit speech, the Taoiseach argued that as members of "a Union with other like-minded democracies who share our values and interests, we have a much more powerful voice on the global stage". However, I would argue that we have diluted our voice on the global stage to align with EU interests. I provide in my paper the example of a reversal of Irish policy on Palestine. In July 2014 Ireland abstained in a UN General Assembly vote calling for a Gaza inquiry. A media report by Shona Murray explaining this change in Irish foreign policy claims it was:

a strategic vote to abstain, in line with all EU members, who are members of the Human Rights Council. The reason why they say they did that is because this draft resolution didn’t pertain to investigating breaches of international humanitarian law on both aides, and it didn’t explicitly condemn the firing of rockets from Hamas into Israel.

In fact, the resolution did explicitly condemn the firing of rockets into Israel. This is just one among several examples that stand in contrast to the Taoiseach's claim that “our interests are absolutely best served from within the Union”.

The Taoiseach also said the following:

If we believe in a vision of a bright future for our continent and for our European values, then we must place that vision at the heart of our discussions. Otherwise, we will be playing into the hands of those who do not share those values, or that vision. But let me also make one thing absolutely clear – Ireland will be on the EU side of the table when the negotiations begin. We will be one of the 27.

I argue that in this adopted identity as a "European island" rather than a "global island", the latter being in the title of the last official position statement on Irish foreign policy by this State, the Taoiseach has failed to recognise that the job of the leader of this State is to defend Irish values and interests and to be on the side of Ireland when negotiating Brexit.

I will also touch on the future of Irish foreign policy post-Brexit, as that is where the meat of the discussion will be after this presentation. Ireland is now called one of the PIIGS, or Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain, after the bailout debacle. I argue, although it is controversial, that the real pigs are the successive Irish leaders, who could be named "Napoleon" or "Squealer", while the people of the nation are reflected in other Animal Farm characters like the horses, "Boxer" and "Clover". The EU common foreign and security policy and common security and defence policy, as they are currently developed and as they will develop according to stated EU plans, are arguably incompatible with Irish foreign policy values of anti-militarism, anti-imperialism, anti-colonialism, independence based on a resistance to big power foreign policy agendas, peace promotion impartiality and solidarity with other smaller decolonised and decolonising nations.

There is much material there for consideration and I am quite sure some of it would be contested as well. The witness indicated she would present the full paper and if time permitted, we could have further discourse on another day and it might be very useful. With regard to Dr. Devine's concluding remarks about the Taoiseach saying we would be on the side of the EU 27, all of us would make that type of comment as Britain will be negotiating with the European Union and we are one of the other 27 member states. I would not have read much into that. If I was discussing the matter with people in my own constituency along the Border, they would be very adamant that they would not be a patsy for the Brits in the negotiations that would be taking place with the European Union. I do not know if I would read as much into that as the witness has with respect to the Taoiseach's comment. That comment is probably made loosely enough by most Members of the Oireachtas or people engaged in the Brexit process.

There are clearly plenty of deficiencies in the governance of Europe and all of us in different political parties would highlight those. The importance of the European Union is very evident if one considers the amount of concern and worries there are throughout the island of Ireland in regard to Britain leaving the European Union and the difficulties facing us. Despite the deficits and weaknesses of the European Union as it is, there are major positives for us as well. Some of us are on other committees that meet practically weekly on the issue of Brexit etc. and we know the concerns and worries that we all have and what faces us post-Brexit.

Dr. Devine mentioned that Denmark might use a veto or have opt-outs but my recollection is that we have those as well. They are in justice and home affairs anyway.

Yes. The Seville declaration in regard to the Lisbon treaty provided many safeguards in response to concerns expressed during those referenda campaigns. We had it built in and it formed part of the question in the referendum put to the people here. After the witness takes other queries, she might refer to the Seville declaration and its importance from the perspective of respecting our neutrality and our independence.

I thank Dr. Devine for her very stimulating presentation and giving us the opportunity to engage with her on this important question. There are many issues and a great many implications of Brexit for Irish foreign policy. As she said, she is really just touching on some of them in her paper. It is interesting that she emphasises the flaws in EU governance and the implications of EU membership for Irish neutrality. I would disagree with her or take issue with some of her statements, as she might have expected. I could not accept that military neutrality for Ireland has been eradicated and most Irish people would be slightly horrified to take that view. Ireland is and remains a neutral country, and we are not the only neutral country in the EU.

Forgive me if I have misinterpreted Dr. Devine's comments but I understood her to say that while the UK has been a member of the EU, it has effectively amounted to being a defender of Ireland's neutrality. I cannot accept that but perhaps I misunderstood the witness. It is not right to see the EU as a sort of monolithic entity. The EU is clearly an amalgam of member states with very different approaches to issues around neutrality and foreign policy. We are one of the EU member states in that way. On the left, many of us have struggled with a view of Europe and we have been very critical of aspects of European governance, particularly the "Fortress Europe" mentality and the way in which the EU failed abjectly to come up with a way of welcoming refugees from war-torn countries like Syria and so on. I am absolutely in agreement with Dr. Devine on the critique I imagine she might make in that regard. However, given the changed political climate in the past year internationally, with President Trump in the US, the growing power and dominance of Mr. Putin in Russia and the major fear that many citizens in EU member states in central and eastern Europe are feeling about EU encroachment, as we have seen with Georgia, I am very concerned. We need to start acknowledging the EU can be a very progressive force and counterbalance to the growing might of the US and Russia, with very authoritarian regimes now in place in both those countries. The EU is seen by many across the world, notably in Syria and other war-torn countries, as a bastion of democracy.

There is another articulation of EU values that is true. I agree with much of Dr. Devine's critique but we must also acknowledge there are many other impetuses at work within the EU. Many of us are highly critical of Chancellor Merkel's policies in many ways but nonetheless all of us respect the way in which Germany took in 1 million Syrian refugees and tried to encourage EU member states to take a similarly welcoming approach to policy to refugees. I am sorry to go on but I feel passionately about this. My own family background is from the Czech Republic and I also have family in Croatia. As many on the left did, I grappled with the concept of military intervention in the war in Bosnia. I now believe it unfortunate the EU did not intervene more strongly in that appalling war and genocide, particularly when we saw the treatment of the Bosnian people in particular. We must be careful about assuming certain monolithic ideas about Europe. We must acknowledge it is more complex or nuanced than that. The EU can and should in many ways form a counter-power to authoritarian regimes that we can see in place in the US and Russia.

I know Dr. Devine has time constraints because of college commitments. She might come back to the various queries after Deputy Crowe's contribution.

I welcome Dr. Devine. She stated at the start she would pull no punches and she certainly did not. She indicated she hoped for a turnaround in Irish foreign policy fortunes but that the realisation of that goal depends on the response of members of this committee. She was somewhat flattering in that respect. We have not seen such independent thought coming through in this committee but perhaps it will happen this term because of changes within the Oireachtas. More voices could give a different opinion on the way things are going. The witness indicates change depends on the wider Oireachtas and the media. There is no real evidence of such change apart from in some non-governmental organisations and in the activism of Irish public opinion. I remember attending the demonstrations against the war in Iraq, which had 100,000 Irish people walking on the streets. That was a huge number. The Taoiseach of the day was allegedly knocking on doors in Drumcondra at the time and there was not much leadership at the time in that regard.

The witness probably has too many ideas in her paper for such a small timeframe. It is refreshing and I wish we had more time to discuss some of her ideas.

Dr. Devine spoke about Ireland's inability and unwillingness to use its EU veto, a point also raised by Senator Bacik. Why have we become acquiescent and part and parcel of the French-led new imperialist common security and defence policy, CSDP? Why is there a reluctance to use the veto? Is it because we want to be seen as the good boys and girls of Europe? Are there wider implications in that we will trade off this in the hope of getting support in some other area?

The British Government had been a block in attempts to federalise the EU further. It was coming from its own position on this. While I might not necessarily agree with it, there was a view from many that this was a negative development. The EU institutions have continually ignored all polls and data which show people opposed to federalisation while trust and support for the EU is falling. There is widespread anger at the democratic deficit in the EU. Have the EU institutions learned anything from the Brexit vote and the growing resentment towards the EU? After the British decision, will it instead move quickly towards further federalisation? That is a concern many of us have.

Earlier, listening to the radio, I heard people talking about how there will be a change of gravity with Britain leaving the EU. To a large extent, the British have this idea of themselves as the centre of gravity and everything flows from them. From discussions with some of their representatives, it is obvious they do not have a clue what is coming down the track. That is the difficulty. However, there will be changes in Europe. Is it a concern that this voice will not be there? While the British voice may have come from a different angle from ours, it put a block on many issues, particularly federalisation.

Traditionally, Britain blocked efforts to create an EU army or military force. It was of the view that there was nothing better than its own army and it would see itself as a great peacekeeper. However, that depends on where one lives. If one lived in this part of the word, one might have different view. We have also seen the creation of EU battle groups and joint EU missions abroad. The leaders of the EU institutions have long stated their desire for an EU army. Ministers always say that is not the direction we are going, but it seems we are moving incrementally towards that. This week, the EU agreed to create a new military headquarters in Brussels and there has been agreement that a percentage of the budget would be spent on greater militarisation in all EU states. This is happening at a time when people are living through austerity. Does Dr. Devine believe we will see an acceleration of efforts to create that EU army? Again, that is a concern that many of us have. I know she is on record about her concerns about Irish neutrality and military planes landing at Shannon Airport as part of a forwarding base for military operations around the world. She did not allude to it in her paper but does see it as an issue. I know Dr. Devine has a significant background in Irish neutrality. Does she think this will impact on the Irish Government's supposed policy of neutrality? Does she think this will mean we will no longer continue the pretence? Will legislation for Irish neutrality, such as through a referendum, be introduced? Will we give up these public statements on neutrality? Is it too soon for Irish politicians to acquiesce in that?

There have been big changes in the US with significant developments on the other side of the election of Donald Trump. Does Dr. Devine believe the British Government's focus will shift to creating stronger ties with the new American regime? Will it be a temporary arrangement or a long-term shift in alliances? Will the British prioritise such a relationship over their relationship with the European Union? How will this impact on Irish foreign policy?

The Government, as well as other political parties and groupings, have conducted a significant amount of outreach to other EU Governments on the unique situation of Ireland with regard to Brexit. Last week, we had the historic elections in the North with a significant focus on the DUP. Brexit was also part of the reason for the high voter turnout. Does Dr. Karen Devine believe that a core priority of the Government's foreign affairs policy must be to ensure the North receives a special status in the European Union? This is one of these developing positions. The Irish Parliament has adopted a position on this special category. How would such a special category status be viewed in other European capitals?

Dr. Karen Devine

I thank members for their questions and feedback. The Chairman mentioned that one would not read anything into the notion in the Taoiseach's statement of Ireland being on the side of the 27. I accept that in terms of its face value. However, I look at this through the prism of the academic theory of elite socialisation. This theory states that the longer one spends conducting politics at EU level within the EU circle and, for example, the Taoiseach would have spent-----

I would say one becomes more critical.

Dr. Karen Devine

That is part of the hypothesis. Does one become more embedded in the thinking or does one become more critical? In the case of Ireland, the evidence shows that the elites have become more embedded. For me, that is why I question why the Taoiseach has to divide it into the binary of the UK versus the rest. Ireland, traditionally, has had some alignment with UK policy, such as a refusal to join in the harmonisation of corporate tax rates. On fisheries in the 1980s, the UK was our biggest partner in preventing continued encroachment with the extension of the exclusive economic zone, EEZ, of Irish fisheries grounds. Ireland and the UK have had several alliances in areas such as tax, economics, fisheries and with the CSDP. To pre-empt a point raised by Senator Bacik, the UK has not protected Irish neutrality. I did not mean to give that impression earlier. For diametrically opposed reasons, the UK and Ireland have always had a position of trying to prevent or delay the continued defence integration of the EU. Ireland wanted to protect its neutrality while the UK wanted to protect the special relationship with the US and have NATO as the primary security collective defence agency for it and the EU.

As Brexit has such serious consequences for this country, I would rather see our leader saying what the Irish strategy will be and not to be co-opted continually into this notion. The Taoiseach even said we have to be careful because our European values are under threat. In his speech, he mentioned there was some kind of feeling at a Council meeting that somehow these values were under threat and had to be defended. The idea that the UK, by exiting the EU, is somehow reversing its own values and undermining European ones is not true.

I did not refer to Prime Minister May's speech, but it is mentioned in the larger paper. She discussed Britain being a "global Britain". It was written on her podium when she spoke, it was the title of her paper and it was on the background. She stated that she wanted the UK to be more globally focused. I included so much detail on people like Wolfe Tone and Daniel O'Connell from the 1700s and 1800s because Ireland has traditionally been a globally focused island. I see no harm in that, but what I read from the Taoiseach's speeches is that it is all about "us" against the UK with Ireland's position omitted. We are the nation that is most vulnerable to Brexit. We are the nation that should be trying to drive and lead these negotiations instead of following along with the defensiveness that has been evident among the elite in the EU since the referendum result on 26 June 2016.

Opt-outs were referenced. There are opt-out areas beyond security and defence. Schengen and Justice and Home Affairs have been mentioned. Contrary to one of the myths propagated in Irish referendum discourses, though, Ireland has no opt-outs from the common security and defence policy, CSDP, and it never sought them. The Seville declaration is a strategy employed by the Government. It was a political declaration and has no legal standing whatsoever. It was simply a statement by the then members of the European Council that there would be a referendum held in Ireland on the question of military neutrality. It did not actually reference neutrality, but neutrality has always underpinned the State's foreign policy, not the Government's narrow concept of military neutrality, which just means not being a member of a pre-existing military alliance. In my presentation, I argued that this had been reversed, given that we were a part of the Western European Union, WEU, military alliance, which was subsumed into the EU. That merger was always a part of the plan of the Germans and French. The Seville declaration does not respect neutrality.

I remember a point arising from surveys. I cited Professor Giandomenico Majone, a retired researcher at the European University Institute in Florence, which is the EU's effective university. He is extremely pro-EU and wrote his book from that perspective. However, his view on how the EU takes its decisions means that Ireland has not been able to secure the notion of unity in diversity. Although Brian Cowen attempted to water down the mutual defence clause during the 2003 negotiations on the draft constitution for Europe, which turned into the Lisbon treaty, he did not get his way. In coalition with Austria, Sweden and Finland, he tried to make the mutual defence clause non-automatic in terms of obliging Ireland to commit by all means in its power to the defence of a state that might come under attack, but they failed because that was the agenda of the Germans and the French, who want to create a hyper présence for the EU and to make it a global actor. It has always been pointed in that direction, which the debate in Ireland has ignored. We are constantly told the opposite, namely, that we are not headed towards an EU army. However, having read the writings of Jean Monnet, the original European federalist, and Jean-Claude Juncker, the head of the European Commission today, that is the goal.

Senator Bacik is correct about the EU being an area of security and peace for individuals fleeing wartorn zones, but that is not central to the ethos of the CSDP's development. A point is omitted in the debates. A gentleman by the name of Michael Hudson, an economics professor at the University of Missouri at Kansas City in the US, has pointed out that the big power member states of the EU that are making pronouncements on Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas of the Middle East where problems have created the refugee crisis have actually been helping to create those war conditions. The Senator referred to how Russia was a growing power. This forms part of the geopolitical discourse. As Professor Hudson points out, Russia offered to reconcile with Europe in the post-Cold War era. It sought a trade agreement. The idea of joining NATO was even floated once.

Military resources are not the answer to a flood of refugees. An entirely different approach is required. Trying to act as a global power that defuses situations rather than builds them into "us versus them" scenarios would have a greater effect and be more in line with the traditional values of Irish foreign policy. Our Constitution refers to a peaceful resolution of disputes. Too much has been invested in creating the industrial arms base of the EU. The arms industry is worth billions of euro to the EU and across the Atlantic in the US. From the EU's perspective, I can understand the notion that it does not want to have to keep buying US arms and the suggestion that it should have its own industrial base. For example, Sweden has a large arms industry whereas Ireland does not.

My problem is that if the EU wanted to create a global actor with the capability to intervene militarily in its near abroad, in whose interest would that be done? The failure in the development of the CSDP has been in the input of the European Parliament. It was always supposed to have an input, but instead we have the classic realpolitik and Cold War legacy of not letting people know about security and defence policy. This is what we call "high politics", and it is hived off. Proinsias De Rossa, who was a member of the Labour Party at one point, was always campaigning-----

And the Workers' Party.

Dr. Karen Devine

The Workers' Party, then Democratic Left and eventually the Labour Party. He was a Labour Party MEP. He stated that the future incarnation of CSDP would be a great thing and should be supported, but that he would only agree to its development if the European Parliament had co-decision powers. He was explicit. The Parliament has no say. Twice a year, it calls on Ms Federica Mogherini, the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, to give a statement, but it has no decision-making power. It does not even have the power of consultation. That is a major flaw.

Regarding the notion that the EU as a larger entity would, for example, counterbalance Trump in the USA and the fear of eastern European states, in which context Senator Bacik mentioned Georgia, consider the intervention in Libya, which was supposed to solve problems but created a situation similar to the one in Syria. The problem is that power politics have not left NATO and the EU. In whose interest is that? Several academics have analysed why the EU intervened in the missions in Africa. Professor Gorm Rye Olsen is one of them. After examining seven missions in total, he found that there had essentially been a gentlemen's agreement between the UK and France that the EU's foreign policy would only get involved in those areas of Africa that had been carved out as British or French colonies. They agreed that if either wanted to use the European Security and Defence Policy, ESDP, to do something in Africa, it would be okay as long as the other was allowed to do the same in respect of its former colonial states. Professor Olsen pointed to the good in these human interventions, but that strategic geopolitical interests rather than humanitarianism were the primary goal. Consider France in Chad, for example.

The French already had military there supporting the government in Chad and there was an issue. Even French NGOs pointed to the lack of neutrality in the intervention in Chad, particularly with French forces already being there. For me, we need to have a space where we can question the realpolitik and the real interests that could be at stake if the EU decided to develop this capability.

In relation to Deputy Crowe's questions, of which I counted nine - I enjoyed all of them - the Deputy is correct that there is too much in the paper. It is one of my failings as an academic that I always go on too long. The wider paper, hopefully, will provide more forensic evidence and detail on what I am trying to say.

I agree with Deputy Crowe on most of the points he made in that there is no evidence that the media is an activist for Irish foreign policy. I also noticed this, particularly in relation to The Irish Times which has always regarded itself as "the paper of record". There was a journalist, whose name escapes me, who was always clear in his reporting. As a student in the early 1990s in UCD and in Limerick, I always followed his reports on what was happening at EU level in terms of European political co-operation and then, after the Maastricht treaty was passed and ratified in 1993, the notion of the common security and defence policy, and later the common foreign policy. He was always quite accurate and fair in his reporting of what was said and the possible implications for Irish foreign policy and neutrality. That ended around the late 1990s and since then I have noticed - I have done a lot of empirical analysis of this - that the journalists who are reporting at EU level are more like embedded journalists. They are no longer independently reporting. They are in a way rewriting what was said, not critiquing it or looking at it from the perspective of traditional Irish foreign policy norms. I cannot tell my students that if they want to know about Irish foreign policy or the European Union, they should consult The Irish Times, etc. I have to provide the documentary evidence. Even with textbooks on the EU, which I am always asked to review, I find I am always critiquing them because they give this depoliticised flowery picture of how EU politics works. I prefer to use the textbooks to teach how the institutions work but I provide my own analysis of both sides of the argument as to when the EU does good and when it has room for improvement, and I leave my students to make up their own minds on it. I give material from both sides, and that has been absent from academia.

Even Professor Giandomenico Majone, the European University Institute, EUI, pro-European Union academic I mentioned, when outlining the three operating strategies and principles of how the EU works, stated that academics have never critiqued these and they do not want to do so because they are all inherently pro-European Union. If one is studying the EU, one is pro-European Union. Such academics do not want to touch it because they are afraid that if they do, they are somehow undermining the European Union project. That is a problem, even if one is, as I have always been, pro-EU. It was why I started studying it myself. I did a masters in European integration in Limerick and I continued to study it; I teach it in DCU. I have been teaching it for over ten years at DCU, and prior to that in Trinity and in Aberdeen. The point is that one cannot suspend one's critical faculties. Deputy Crowe is correct in that regard.

One cannot really criticise the EU in relation to Iraq. It did not come up with a position because it was split along the traditional axis of CSDP, the UK versus France. France was very much against the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US, seeing them as basically imperialist interventions. The UK decided the special relationship was more important and became part of the coalition of the willing. Deputy Crowe is correct when he cites the 100,000 who marched in Dublin in the anti-war demonstrations. In fact, I included that in the bigger paper that I will submit to the committee. There was not much leadership there. Just like the media, that is completely absent from Irish politics in the past 20 or 30 years. I point to some of those changes in the wider paper.

The third comment Deputy Crowe made was that Ireland has not used the veto and he asked why that is the case. I go back to the point I made to the Chairman on this notion of elite socialisation - the idea that Ireland was so eager to join the EEC. The first application was submitted in 1961, de Gaulle vetoed the UK's entry and Ireland did not pursue it. We submitted another two applications - three applications in all - and the third and final one was accepted. However, we were willing to sell ourselves, effectively sell out, just to get in. Partly, this was because of the organisation of domestic politics in Ireland in that one can see that the fishermen were not a strong lobby group and fishing was literally handed over to the EU, yet we did not give our land and our farming, which are really important to this island, over to the EU in that respect. We do not control agricultural policy; it is controlled at the EU level, with Ireland having a seat at that table. There were so many aspects, including our foreign policy aspects, that we were willing to set aside in order to join.

I can understand why, given that Ireland wanted to develop and was overly dependent on the UK. My problem is that we do not use the veto because our thinking has gone too far, and this is why I included elements of the Taoiseach's speech. In terms of our political elite, we are now so embedded in being good Europeans and on the side of the 27 that we have fundamentally lost what we are supposed to do and what other EU states, such as Denmark, do in terms of simply fighting for one's interests. When I teach students how the EU works, I explain that they should forget about the tabloid headlines one might get, in particular, in the UK, such as "Brussels is trying to control us", and learn that every piece of legislation passed by the EU has been passed with the support of member state governments because that is how decisions are taken. Every piece of legislation, whether it is a decision, a directive or a regulation, has to be passed by the Council of Ministers. The problem, for me, is that the EU, as it has developed, has given more power to the European Parliament but in tandem has also increased the involvement of qualified majority voting in the Council of Ministers, which means that smaller member states can be outvoted or a coalition of member states can be outvoted on an important proposal. In a way, this is a problem of the democratic deficit in the EU that Deputy Crowe talked about. The notion of EU federalisation that the Deputy mentioned is, in fact, what is driving that - the European Parliament is a direct representative of the citizens of the EU and it should have co-decision standing with the Council of Ministers.

The Deputy stated that polls have shown that people oppose the democratic deficit and that trust in the EU has shrunk. One of the points I make in the wider paper is that when one looks at states such as Greece and Ireland that have, in a way, been hammered by the policies of the EU in relation to bailouts and resisting the vested interests that the then US Treasury Secretary, Mr. Timothy Geithner, was representing when he was trying to influence the EU decisions on what to do about, for example, the Irish banks or Greek sovereign debt, one can see the problem. In terms of the analysis of opinion polls - I have written a paper on this - trust and identification with Europe has completely plummeted among those member states' populations, the so-called PIIGS. This is in direct contrast to the member states which have emerged relatively unscathed from the financial crisis although the banks of France, Germany and the UK were just as reckless as Irish banks or Greek banks because the whole system is interconnected. I did not present it today, but I am using the analogy of how Ireland acquiesced to the vested interests in the output of the negotiations in 2010 over the imposition of the bailout whereas the leaders previously, from 1916 or even prior to that, would never have allowed that to happen because they had enough notion of Irish national interest to resist it.

A state such as Denmark which is used to using its veto and sees no problem in using it, that does not have this post-colonial mentality of having to please all the time, would not have let a similar situation happen. I have a lot of sympathy for what the member said about that.

On whether the EU institutions learned anything from Brexit, I wrote a draft paper on this which analyses the debate in the European Parliament immediately after the result of the referendum on 26 June 2016, when 52% of voters in the UK voted to leave the EU. Those European Parliament discourses were completely divided and in a worrying way. On the left, most MEPs said they could understand the result if one looked at the imposition of austerity that had been part of the EU's response to the global financial crisis. That is why I looked at the Eurobarometer polls in the so-called PIIGS states to see the effect on trust in the EU and identification with the European Union project. It has had such a detrimental effect. The MEPs said that Brexit was just another symptom of that, and they said that, as parliamentarians and part of the overall EU body, they had failed people in that respect and they should have done better. They said that this should be a wake up call for them, that they did not want another country to exit because of the EU's difficulties in handling these issues.

The other side of the debate worried me. This was the ideological problem I had, namely, the EU-vangelist, as one might call it, where there was absolutely no acceptance of the notion that 17 million people had said that they wanted to get out, that they felt it was not in their interests. There was no notion that maybe the EU had not done so well in the global financial crisis and the imposition of austerity, that maybe it could have done something different. There was no critical engagement whatsoever with the reasons people voted for Brexit. Instead, what they said was that it was an opportunity to go forward with further integration, to have a banking union and a fiscal union. Germany's Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, called for a European system of welfare, and he called for this before. They want to be able to concentrate power and put in more integration in policy areas where the EU is not currently involved. They want to keep pushing that. It speaks to Professor Majone's observation that the end result of European integration is not the point, so much as its need to keep getting more competences. That side of the MEPs' debate was very worrying. If the EU continues to be blind to its flaws and refuses to engage out of fear - nobody likes to be criticised or attacked - it is that lack of critical engagement with self that I find particularly worrying.

On whether the EU institutions have learned anything from Brexit, half the Parliament has and half has not and its solution is to go further down the federalisation project route, which many member state populations would not agree with. I do not think it is the correct response.

There was a worry that when the British voice is gone, there will be an urge to go down the federal route and the question was asked as to whether there would be an acceleration of EU militarisation and would we, in Ireland, give up public statements on neutrality or would we no longer continue the pretence of neutrality. I wrote a paper looking at how Sweden and Ireland have behaved in engaging with EU military operations and it is worth noting the contrast. Sweden has gone for EU security and defence and full involvement in military operations. This is partly why it got involved in Libya, where Swedish jets engaged in airstrikes. Swedish fighter jets were involved in the conflict. The Swedish discourses were very much what the Irish Government would like to say but is not saying and has not said. Sweden said that it was part of its foreign policy identity and is what the country is about and it was doing good by intervening in this manner.

Sweden is a signal of where Ireland may go. The Irish Government still feels somewhat constrained by Irish public opinion, mainly because there have been so many referendums and because of the constitutional requirement arising from the Crotty case that there has to be a referendum on any new treaty that proposes further transfer of sovereignty from Ireland to the EU. I do not know if the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, will be the one to say it but the road we are going down is where we will simply give up public statements on neutrality. Sweden, Finland and Austria have. They no longer use the word neutrality to define their foreign policy, they use "non-allied". Ireland is similar in that it says that it is not about neutrality, it is always about military neutrality and that is defined as whatever the Government wants it to be on a given day. It is not embedded in international customary law such as The Hague Conventions of 1907 where one will find what a state has to be to be neutral in any future conflict. We will see an acceleration of EU militarisation with the UK gone. That is one of the dynamics that we need to understand. For those who want to defend the traditional norms of Irish foreign policy, Ireland does not want to get dragged into a big state-driven EU operation.

On whether the UK will prioritise relations with the US rather than the EU and how that might affect Irish foreign policy, it depends on who is in government. Tony Blair was one of the key individuals who, in a way, signals the demise of the diametrically opposed partnership between the UK and Ireland in trying to restrict further federalisation in the area of security and defence. He changed his mind after a meeting with Jacques Chirac in St. Malo in 1998, when they came out with this idea of a European security and defence identity. This was a huge change in UK foreign policy which had previously been against it. In her Brexit speech of 17 January this year, Theresa May said that the UK would still co-operate with the EU in foreign policy but the UK, outside the EU, is going to have a huge effect on Irish foreign policy.

We are suddenly going to become completely alone at the European Council table. The other neutrals have divested themselves of neutrality and are taking a more active part in military and training operations. They are more NATO-aligned than Ireland is officially. With the UK gone, Ireland will have to stand on its own feet without a bigger state reflecting its position, albeit for completely diametrically opposed reasons. That is probably the biggest thing that I have to say here. We have never used our veto. The Government does not particularly care about trying to hang on to those normative aspects of Irish foreign policy and the values associated with neutrality. The question is whether public opinion will put enough pressure on Government to try to retain those aspects of neutrality. I wrote my PhD thesis on public opinion on Irish neutrality while I was at Trinity College. Depending on the how the question is put, between two in three or four in five people in Ireland support neutrality and they do not want it changed. When they are asked if they would be willing to cede aspects of it in favour of an EU common security and defence policy they say they do not favour that. When one looks at opinion poll data for the reasons behind the rejection of the Nice treaty and the Lisbon treaty, the biggest substantive policy reason, other than that people did not know the contents of the treaty, was because they wanted to strengthen Irish neutrality. That is the dilemma that we will face.

The North and Brexit was raised and whether a special status for the North should be a priority for Ireland in the negotiations, and how that will pan out. There is a type of hybrid concept that could apply to the North. This is part of Tony Blair's discourses who wants to roll back the referendum result and does not want the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The notion that a majority of people in Scotland and a majority of people in Northern Ireland did not vote for Brexit and that it was people in Wales and England who voted for Brexit has to be set aside because it is divisive. The UK is a union and I do not believe it will break up any time soon. There is talk of Scotland having another referendum on independence but Theresa May has ruled that out. The idea of a special status for the North should be one of the core priorities for Ireland. It is ironic that Theresa May made more references to Ireland in her Brexit speech of 17 January this year than the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, did in his speech on 15 February this year. She explicitly stated that the UK has a long history with Ireland. She used the phrase "a special relationship" and said that the UK has to be careful to prioritise that in negotiations.

At the same time, we must look at Northern Ireland, the fact that there is an open Border and that Ireland, as an island, contains two separate states. In terms of European integration, with the UK being a member of the EU the hope was that relations between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would improve and that economic integration would help lessen some of the tensions underlying the conflict. Money was put forward in terms of INTERREG programmes. The EU put forward small amounts of money to help with the peace process. It should be a priority for the Irish Government, as it is for the UK Government, to ensure that Northern Ireland is treated as a special case and that its needs will be fulfilled in the Brexit negotiations. However, my fear, and I refer to the comment by the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, that we are on the EU side of the table and are one of the 27, is that it will be forgotten. We have to come at this from the national interest. It is the job of Ministers in the EU Council of Ministers and leaders of states in the European Council to defend their interests. I hope that will happen.

We are out of time. Senator Mark Daly wants to make a brief comment. We are due to finish this session at 10.30 a.m. because of Dr. Devine's commitments in college. I ask Senator Daly to be brief.

I thank Dr. Devine. I agree with Irish neutrality. The EU has proven itself not to be a very democratic state when it comes to the foreign affairs agenda. I was in Rome when Ms Federica Mogherini was closing down the Mare Nostrum rescue mission in the Mediterranean, the obvious consequence of which was that people would die in the Mediterranean, but their idea was that if these people know there is no one to rescue them, they might not come, but thousands perished. She stated in Rome that day that her ambition was that the EU would replace the United States on the European borders in terms of intervening directly. Intervening in the Middle East the way the US has done is not something the EU should aim to have as one of its policies.

Dr. Devine brought up the issue of mutual defence and that we no longer have an opt-out in that regard. Does Dr. Devine have legal opinion on that? No one has given an opinion to this committee, and we are the defence committee, or anybody else to the effect that Ireland is committed to a mutual defence clause and that the derogations we got, from what Dr. Devine is saying, are useless. Could Dr. Devine supply the clerk and the Chairman with those opinions? Someone in the EU might supply those to her and indicate that Ireland is no longer a neutral state or that it has to intervene under the mutual defence clause. That would be very useful for the members of the committee.

I take exception to Dr. Devine's final statement that the real pigs are successive Irish leaders. That is unworthy of Dr. Devine. Former taoisigh Lynch, Cosgrave, FitzGerald, Haughey, Ahern and Cowen, and our current Taoiseach, were all democratically elected. They are the representatives of the people. It is not worthy of Dr. Devine to describe them as she has done. She has given us an excellent paper and great insight but to describe the former taoisigh and the current Taoiseach in such a manner in the foreign affairs committee is not acceptable. I have been a member of this committee for the past ten years and we have had many witnesses come before it with whom I have agreed and disagreed. The members are from Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and all sides of the House and it is unworthy of Dr. Devine to describe former taoisigh of this country in the way she has done. She can disagree with what they did in a manner that would be more respectful but on that issue, she should apologise.

Dr. Karen Devine

Can I just say that-----

I am sorry. I will call Senator Ó Clochartaigh and Dr. Devine can come back in then.

I thank Dr. Devine for the very thought-provoking presentation. My basic question is whether Irish neutrality is the emperor's new clothes. Has economic expediency taken precedence over neutrality? What is the ongoing impact of international trade agreements between the EU and other blocs such as the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, and the proposed Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, TTIP, which has been shelved, the types of deals we are seeing and the special deal between the EU and Israel? We seem to be able to turn a blind eye to Irish companies trading in military goods with other countries, which somehow does not impinge on neutrality even though such military goods are being used in theatres of war.

The other question is on independent thinking. Dr. Devine's analysis of the media is very interesting but in terms of her analysis of academia, is all the EU funding being allocated to Irish academic institutions colouring the discourse around Irish foreign policy?

Dr. Karen Devine

I will be brief. I want to pick up on Senator Daly's point about the use of the word "pig". Where it came in was that Ireland was in with the PIIGS, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain, countries. We were labelled the PIIGS, which I found difficult to take, and I go into the forensic analysis of that in the paper in terms of how Irish leaders responded-----

We have to be brief but it was actually Dr. Devine's description of former taoisigh.

Dr. Karen Devine

I am just-----

Sorry, I listened to Dr. Devine's entire speech. I am sorry I had to leave but I was watching it on the monitor in my office. Dr. Devine's analogy and description of successive leaders of this country in such a manner is inappropriate.

Dr. Karen Devine

I made an analogy with the book Animal Farm.

I have read Animal Farm. I know exactly what Dr. Devine is doing. I am just referring to Dr. Devine making that statement to members of the foreign affairs committee and describing successive leaders of this country in such a manner. I know the analogy but Dr. Devine actually described them in a manner that is inappropriate.

Dr. Karen Devine

I have no intention of labelling successive Irish taoisigh as pigs-----

That is Dr. Devine's exact wording.

Dr. Karen Devine

No. What I said, and it is very important to clarify this, was that the analogy is with "Napoleon" and "Squealer" because those animals in Animal Farm came up with the idea that they would run their community in a way that was better than the way humans ran it.

I know others would have been taken aback by Dr. Devine's actual wording. I know the analogy. I read Animal Farm for the leaving certificate but the way she described former taoisigh of this country to this committee is inappropriate. Dr. Devine's paper is excellent but to use that phraseology about successive Irish leaders in that way is inappropriate.

Dr. Devine, on the other issues raised-----

On a point of order, Dr. Devine should be allowed to respond when she has been challenged in such a way.

I chair this meeting. Dr. Devine will deal with the other issues that have been raised.

Dr. Karen Devine

I accept the point but the interpretation was entirely different from what I had intended. I apologise for any offence caused but I was making a political point by way of analogy to Animal Farm. Senator Daly asked about derogations and supplying the Chair of the committee with a legal analysis. I wrote an article for Cooperation and Conflict in 2011 in which I analysed the published legal views of academics at that time who had written about the legality of European security and defence. On derogations, they referred to the "Irish clause" which stated that nothing in the mutual defence clause would affect the character of the security and defence policy of certain member states. The clause went on to make an analogy with members of the EU who were also part of NATO. It was the UK who pushed for this because it safeguarded the UK's prioritisation of NATO's article 5 guarantee in the Washington treaty over the new article 5 mutual defence clause in the treaty of the European Union. Ireland has no derogations nor opt-outs and the legal opinion of the academics whom I quoted in the paper, which I will also supply to the committee, was that if the clause was supposed to be a derogation for neutrality it should have stated it. It did not do so, however, so in their opinion it has no legal effect.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh asked about the idea of neutrality being the emperor's new clothes, with trade being the focus in the form of CETA and the now-shelved TTIP. He also asked about the trading of munitions and arms. I do think neutrality is the emperor's clothes but this is an analogy and it signifies the double reading that is being done at EU level, which also involves the Irish elites and decision makers. Closed-door decision making at the EU means the issue is somewhat opaque. The EU has responded to efforts to publish some of the details of the negotiations over TTIP but it is right to say that, ultimately, we need to focus attention on massive trading agreements between blocs and large nations. I was e-mailed by activists before the news on TTIP broke and I wanted to have time to look at it but unfortunately have not had that time. The focus needs to be on critical engagement with these issues.

The final question was on independent thinking in academia and the issue of reflecting what is going on in the media, leading to the failure of critical engagement. The fact that European academic funding is channelled through the EU is a factor and some academics have referred to other academics who are driven by the need to obtain EU funding, calling them "jobbing academics". Academics are supposed to be critical, independent and engaged individuals who are not strictly politicised, in the sense of being pro-EU or anti-EU. Some academics in UK universities, on hearing the result of the referendum, asked, "What about our EU funding?" A lot of universities campaigned against Brexit because of EU research funding. Tenure, promotion and careers are dependent on securing funding and the EU is the only source for funding so there is a critical lack of engagement in that respect.

I thank Dr. Devine. Her paper is very thought-provoking.

Dr. Karen Devine

Thank you.

Hopefully we will have an opportunity to discuss her full paper when she submits it. This committee, Parliament and the Government have to be very strong within the 27 member states negotiating with Britain to advocate our interests and it is in our interests that Britain gets the best possible deal with the EU because of our historical trading relationships and interdependence. There is a huge amount of bilateral contact. This committee met the First Vice-President of the European Commission, Mr. Frans Timmermans. We outlined our concerns about Brexit and how it would affect all of our island and we told Mr. Timmermans what we needed the EU to address in the negotiations. We met with the House of Commons select committee on exiting the European Union, chaired by Hilary Benn, MP, and our colleagues from the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs have held various meetings in Brussels. There is a huge amount of bilateral contact at Oireachtas and Government level to outline Ireland's concerns and where we want the negotiations to end up.

Dr. Devine quite rightly referred to the lack of confidence in the EU following the failure to support small countries when the global economic crash happened. When there was a threat to some of the major economies the European Central Bank put in quantitative easing, which would have made a huge difference if it was activated a few years earlier. There has been a lack of governance and Germany and France have exercised dominance for several years, such as by calling summit meetings. Comments made by the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel and French President, Nicholas Sarkozy, were very unhelpful to Ireland when we faced particular economic challenges. Despite these things, the most recent eurobarometer poll showed that 67% of the Irish people believe we are better within the European Union than outside. Ireland is still positive about Europe, though that does not mean we should not be critical because we have good reason to be critical over what did not happen for a few years.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.50 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11.15 a.m.
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