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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence debate -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 2019

White Paper on Defence Update: Discussion

In the second part of today's meeting we will meet the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, to discuss the White Paper update on fixed-term reviews. The Minister of State is very welcome. I also welcome his officials and thank them for the briefing in advance of the meeting. Before we begin, members, witnesses and persons in the Public Gallery are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting mobile phones are turned off completely or switched to airplane, safe or flight mode, depending on their device. It is not sufficient to put phones on silent mode, as this will maintain interference with the broadcasting system.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee. I very much welcome this opportunity to engage with the committee on two connected processes currently being undertaken within my Department with civil and military involvement, namely, the ongoing White Paper update for 2018 and 2019 and the White Paper implementation project, which is focused on the establishment of a fixed cycle of defence reviews as a permanent feature of defence policy.

I look forward to listening to and noting the comments and observations of committee members present today. I particularly want to stress that these are new developments in our approach to defence policy. I am very much in listening mode today and I appreciate that any new ways of doing things, particularly when it comes to defence, should ideally attract broad support across the Houses. This has been a long-standing tradition which I am keen to maintain.

As members will be aware, the White Paper on Defence, which was approved by the Government in July 2015, provides the strategic and comprehensive defence policy framework for the ten-year period up to 2025. As such, the White Paper is the Government’s medium-term policy on defence. It is the second White Paper on Defence. Its predecessor, the first White Paper, dated back to 2000. The comprehensive consultation process that led to the approval of the current White Paper commenced with publication of a historic Green Paper on Defence in July 2013. This initiated a public consultation on the White Paper and in doing so it broke new ground by actively encouraging open debate and critical thinking about Ireland’s future defence policy requirements. In response to the Green Paper my Department received a total of 122 written submissions and follow-on meetings with a wide variety of stakeholders and interested parties were subsequently held.

In addition to the public consultation process, officials from the Department of Defence liaised extensively with a broad range of Government Departments and agencies with a common interest in security or which avail of the services of the Department, the Defence Forces and Civil Defence. There was also consultation with international organisations with a particular focus on international peace and security-related peace support and crisis management operations. These included the United Nations, the European External Action Service, the European Defence Agency and NATO’s Partnership for Peace.

The consultation process concluded by bringing all stakeholders together for an open policy debate, with an opportunity for those that made contributions to hear the views of a range of panellists and to debate and express their opinions. This was held in Farmleigh House in May 2015. All who attended found the event to be useful and thought provoking. In addition, a final opportunity to engage on and contribute to the White Paper then under development was afforded to Members of the Dáil and statements were taken in the House at the end of June 2015. The views of all those who contributed throughout the process were carefully considered and there is no doubt that the White Paper has benefited from having had these valuable inputs.

The policy framework set out in the White Paper is designed to be flexible and responsive. This is important, given the dynamic nature of the current security environment. It is also designed to enable the defence organisation, comprising the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces, to be adaptive to these changing circumstances and to use our resources as efficiently as possible.

It is within this context that the White Paper sets out the Government's intention to establish a process of fixed-cycle defence reviews. These are common internationally and give assurance that policy remains up to date and relevant to changing future circumstances. The White Paper specifically provides that these reviews are to have a three-year cycle, with every second review being more comprehensive in nature and, as such, would be styled a "strategic defence review". As set out in the White Paper, strategic defence reviews will commence in early 2021.

Before that happens, however, the White Paper also specifies that the first in the new cycle of reviews will be a White Paper update, which my Department commenced last July. Members will recall that I wrote to the committee last autumn to seek their views. In the interim, a considerable amount of work has progressed, but it is still relevant to obtain members' views, particularly on the long-term approach to the process of fixed-cycle reviews. I have not come to this meeting to advance any particular approach, speak to any particular element of the White Paper or argue any point in our discussion. We debate many issues at this committee and in the House and there are plenty of occasions for me to respond to particular points. This is not such an occasion, however. My approach today is simply to allow a space in which the White Paper update can take account of what committee members have to say. In conjunction with this, and most importantly for the long term, it will benefit all if we can put in place an effective, structured and systematic approach.

The White Paper represents Government policy on defence. It is not intended that the update will reopen fundamentals of defence policy that were settled when the Government approved the White Paper in 2015. These fundamentals include the fact that Ireland will continue to maintain its policy of military neutrality. The White Paper also sets out key principles regarding capability development that have resulted in the subsequent development of rolling multi-annual equipment and infrastructure plans. Developments at international level, including Ireland's decision to participate in the EU's permanent structured co-operation, PESCO, agreement remain consistent with the approach in the White Paper. The White Paper also places a strong emphasis on the development of the human resources of the defence organisation and significant work in this area is under way.

In undertaking the update, we have focused primarily on an updated security assessment and an analysis of the range of projects being undertaken by way of implementation of the White Paper. The updated security assessment will be published as part of the update, reflecting a reconsideration of chapter 2 of the White Paper. As such, it is the product of an interdepartmental and inter-agency group comprising representatives of relevant Departments and agencies, including An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. Such an assessment of the security environment will remain a key component of fixed-cycle reviews, as it will be used to situate appropriately the defence policy response in terms of the lead or supporting roles that defence plays.

In essence, it provides a fully considered and agreed common perspective for all elements involved in protecting the security of the State. As members will appreciate, it would be inappropriate for me to discuss the content of the assessment pending completion of all work being carried out as part of the overall update and, ultimately, its approval by the Government. As with the White Paper, the outcome will be published.

The second key strand of the update, which is well advanced at this stage, is a review of progress in the White Paper's implementation. Following publication of the White Paper, a total of 88 projects were identified to be completed over a ten-year period. From a programme management perspective, these have become 95 discrete projects, with the implementation of each being supported and monitored by a joint civil-military White Paper implementation facilitation team. As part of this strand, the review of progress with implementation has been broken into a four-stage process, involving high-level civil and military engagement. This process has involved a review of all 95 projects, with different considerations arising and being factored into the review of each, depending on its current status, that is, whether it has commenced or is now closed. Two of the four stages have now been completed while work on the final stage, the report capturing the outcomes of the reviews of each project, is under way.

Following completion of these two key strands of the update, and having regard to whatever views members may have, the next important phase of the update will be consideration of the implications of any change in the context of overall policy requirements, associated tasks, capability development and resourcing. All of this work, including that carried out to date, is being overseen by a high-level civil-military steering group that meets regularly to review progress and the overall approach. It is my intention that, when all work is finalised, the White Paper update will be brought to the Government for approval of the outcome and for a decision on any change in approach that may be required.

The second aspect of my engagement with the committee is to listen to the views of members on the White Paper implementation project that is focused on the establishment of a fixed cycle of defence reviews as a permanent feature of defence policy. In this regard, the White Paper sets out the Government's intention that these defence review processes are to be given a new standing in public management terms. The White Paper specifically provides for a new set of arrangements to ensure that a strong strategic defence planning and decision making approach is taken. I have outlined the process already under way in terms of the first White Paper update and the commitment on the part of the Government to commence a strategic defence review in early 2021.

One of the White Paper implementation projects under way in the Department of Defence is focused on developing a formalised structure, to be approved by the Government, for these fixed cycles of defence reviews. This ongoing project, which is being undertaken by a civil-military team, is principally considering the structure and processes for the future conduct of defence reviews and, in doing so, will draw from the experience gained in carrying out the current update. The project team has undertaken a broad-ranging study, including academic review and international comparisons, in order to identify the key elements that could shape the conduct of future defence reviews. When finalised, proposals in this regard will be brought to the Government for approval. Before that happens, however, it is the Government's stated intention in the White Paper to engage in a process of all-party consultation on the overall approach. This committee is an ideal forum to address that commitment.

There are a number of key elements being considered as part of the ongoing project and, subject to the committee's perspective, it is on the following questions, in particular, that I would appreciate views: whether legislative provision should be made for the conduct of fixed-cycle reviews; the extent to which the reviews should differ – for example, what should distinguish an update from a strategic defence review; the level and breadth of consultation for each; the frequency and timing of reviews; and whether, regardless of these reviews, there is a case for a continuing approach that includes provision for further White Papers and, if so, when, within the new cycle of reviews.

Having outlined the purpose of my seeking this engagement with the joint committee, and once again emphasising that my approach today is simply to take account of what committee members have to say, I look forward to listening to and considering their views on these important matters related to the White Paper on Defence.

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed presentation on the work that is ongoing and for the update on the White Paper.

I acknowledge the engagement with the committee. It is positive that we are meeting rather often on these matters.

The Minister of State mentioned a high-level civil-military steering group. Who exactly are the members of that group?

The Minister of State also referred to whether legislative provision should be made for the conduct of fixed-cycle reviews. What kinds of changes does he envisage that would require such provision? I am putting this in the context of a report I have been quoting recently and on which the Minister of State's MEP colleagues engaged at EU level, namely, Ireland and the EU: Defending our Common European Home. It contains some alarming comments - for example, on redefining the concept of Irish neutrality, amending our triple-lock system and developing our defence industry. It does not sit easily that such comments are coming from some MEPs when we are committed to Ireland's neutrality here.

It was great that the Minister of State received so many submissions. Many came from civil society. I am wondering about further engagement because, with defence, it is civil society that is most effective when anything goes wrong.

There is an increase in military expenditure. Does the Minister of State envisage further increases? There are concerns in this regard. I asked the Minister of State before about the multi-role vessel that was possibly being purchased.

I thank the Minister of State for the letter he sent me following up on my question on training. He outlined in it some of the training that takes place. I acknowledge the great work our peacekeeping forces do when on UN-mandated missions. My question was on interrogation training. The Minister of State reverted to me on some of the other types of training. It is important to emphasise the importance of training on gender and refugee issues. We saw the so-called training for the Libyan coast guard was far from what it should have been. Our troops are much better trained. Given Irish troops' training on human rights and gender and refugee issues, could we more proactive in this regard? What happened in Libya and the Mediterranean was most unsatisfactory.

The Minister of State mentioned his role in planning for Brexit. I was in Belfield last week for the launch of our international development policy, A Better World. Was there engagement with the Minister of State's Department? How does he complement priorities in the new policy document with what we are seeing in the White Paper? Our role has been human rights based and humanitarian. Was there any engagement with the Department of Defence?

I am not familiar with A Better World. I am not aware of any engagement. I may revert to the Deputy on that.

The White Paper update steering group has met at least monthly since the updating commenced last July. Meetings are chaired by a relevant assistant secretary and are attended by the assistant chief of staff and the heads of the Department's planning and organisation branch and the Defence Forces strategic planning branch. There is also a White Paper working group, which will consider any implications for overall defence policy requirements, associated tasks, capability development and resourcing. This group comprises the heads of the planning and organisation branch and Defence Forces strategic planning branch and the White Paper project team.

The fundamentals of the White Paper are not going to change but I am looking for members' views on it today. What changes would they like to see? What would they like to be added or subtracted? I am looking for the committee's views rather giving mine. Everyone should know my views on the White Paper because it was approved by the Government in 2015. We are now on the review stage. I sent briefing notes to all committee members. I wish to hear members' thoughts on the White Paper.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan referred to the Fine Gael MEP group publishing its own paper on the future of Ireland's policy of neutrality. It is totally separate from Government policy. I always encourage political parties and individuals, be they Independents or otherwise, to engage in an open and honest debate on issues that affect everybody daily. These are issues that affect us. We would be doing no justice to society if we did not have open and honest discussions on them. The discussion paper reflects the MEP group's own thoughts and it was not endorsed by my political party. A group of MEPs came together and published the paper. It is not reflective of Government policy by any manner or means. I welcome everybody's comments, however.

We are increasing military expenditure year on year. The multi-role vessel about which the Deputy spoke is referred to in the White Paper. This is at the planning stage. It will be some time before we make a decision on it.

The Deputy talked about the Libyan coast guard. Through Operation Sophia, we are training it. I am not sure about the extent of training on gender issues, etc., but I can revert to the Deputy on that.

Regarding Brexit, defence organisations are currently engaged in prudent planning in response to Brexit. This includes active participation in the whole-of-Government framework developing a response to Brexit. Primary responsibility for the internal security of the State rests with the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, An Garda Síochána and the Customs and Excise. Prevention of trafficking is in the first instance a matter for the Revenue Commissioners and the Garda. There is a Government Brexit team. An assistant secretary from my Department is on that team. We meet quite regularly. Responsibility for the security of the State rests solely with the Department of Justice and Equality. If it acquires aid to the civil power, it calls for the assistance of members of the Defence Forces or the Department of Defence.

The four MEPs were not just testing the water to see what sort of reaction there would be because it was completely undermining our neutrality. I am alarmed by the fact that they made their comments in an open debate in the European Parliament. It is the Minister of State's party that is in government here. Therefore, there is no doubt about what occurred. Ireland has a very proud tradition of being involved in UN-mandated peacekeeping missions. That is what we should continue doing rather than getting diverted into other areas. Regardless of the assurances the Minister of State is giving, there is concern that we are moving away from our neutrality. I am very definitely of the view that we must be assured that our neutrality is sacred, as is fitting for an independent, sovereign state, and that we should not be brought further into the growing security agenda of the European Union. We should return to saving lives in the Mediterranean as opposed to being part of an agenda bringing people from the Mediterranean into the Libyan detention camps.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. The White Paper update indicates that 42 projects have been initiated, which is less than half the total number of 95. To date, only 11 of those 95 projects have been completed. It is clear, therefore, that there has been an under-delivery in terms of the White Paper. As I just stated to Senator Ned O'Sullivan, there is very little detailed information in the Minister of State's statement. It was just an exercise in grammar and language. He explained very little in terms of what he is actually doing with regard to many key issues. I have a number of questions about some of the key issues that are fundamental to the White Paper.

The Chief of Staff was before the Public Service Pay Commission recently. I was very surprised to hear that the Chief of Staff was joined by two officials from the Department of Defence and two from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I would see that as a muzzling of military management regarding its plea to the Public Service Pay Commission. Why did the Minister of State and his Department seek to attend that meeting with the Chief of Staff? Why did they not allow him to exercise his discretion with the commission?

My second question relates to my shock at seeing the effective strength as of March 2019. We have 45% strength in the First Brigade, 45% strength in the Second Brigade, 34% strength at the Defence Forces training centre, 22% strength in the Air Corps and 23% strength in the Naval Service. This is a complete destruction of effective strength in our Defence Forces. Why did the Minister of State not address that in his White Paper update? Why did he not address the serious issues of retention and recruitment? There was not a word or syllable from the Minister of State about the significant exodus we are seeing and the failure to deal with it. We are seeing a significant spillover on an ongoing basis.

Could the Minister of State provide an update on the current recruitment campaign for the Naval Service and the Reserve? There are concerns that it has been either suspended or delayed because of a difficulty between the Department and others involved in the process. Can the Minister of State clarify whether the campaign is continuing as normal? What is the position regarding the recruitment campaign, which was well publicised by the Minister of State and others in recent months?

I also want to get the Minister's view on cybercapability and cybersecurity. Can he outline how many staff are in the cybersecurity unit? What have the Defence Forces provided for around cyber-capability in terms of personnel, resources and responsibilities? I understand that there are four positions. Is the Minister of State satisfied that this is sufficient to protect us against the threats we face? Today, President Macron outlined the serious destabilising effect on democracies across Europe if we do not address significant cyber issues. How prepared is the Department for that? Can the Minister of State brief the committee on the development plan to achieve this capability?

Can the Minister update the committee on the ongoing EU Partnership for Peace in-depth evaluation of Ireland's military capability? In the interests of transparency, will he commit to publishing its contents when it has been concluded? Can he update the committee regarding where the Department is in the context of the implementation of the two PESCO projects to which it has signed up?

My next question concerns something that might not, but should be, mentioned in the White Paper. We saw the departmental change that occurred in the Department of Finance during the recession and across a number of Departments. What is the Department of Defence doing to ensure it possesses staff with appropriate academic qualifications - such as degrees, masters degrees or PhDs - in international relations and security and defence? This is something that has been mirrored across other Departments. Could the Minister of State clarify how many members of staff are qualified in those areas? What are the Minister of State's plans to bring forward any legislation to allow the Reserve to provide time in terms of training, as is the norm in other countries?

Brexit was mentioned by a previous speaker. What bilateral discussions have taken place with the UK regarding a hard Brexit?

Has there been any contingency planning? Obviously, Ireland has an informal agreement on air defence cover and the Minister of State needs to clarify the position in respect of it. He needs to clarify what discussions his Department has had regarding those matters.

Every detail sought by the Deputy can be found in the document. I am not sure if he has read the document cover to cover but it contains all of the information he is seeking.

Could the Minister of State provide an update?

I came here looking for the views of the committee on the White Paper. The issue of pay has nothing to do with the White Paper. I am just seeking members' views. It would be totally remiss of me if I did not come before the committee in the context of reviewing the White Paper. I wrote to the committee in the autumn and stated that I would like the opportunity to come before it to ask members their views on the White Paper. I will appear before the select committee later today in connection with the Estimates and have no problem answering any of the questions the Deputy has just posed at that point. However, most of his questions do not relate to the White Paper. I say this genuinely. The White Paper is a ten-year project that we will review. If I was an Opposition spokesperson and the Minister of State did not come before the committee asking for members' thoughts and views on the specifics in the White Paper-----

I am not criticising the Minister of State in the context of his appearance before the committee.

I will go through the questions asked by the Deputy. Pay is not an issue for the White Paper but the Secretary General, the Chief of Staff and officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform met the Pay Service Pay Commission this morning. I do not determine who appears before the commission. As I have pointed out to the Deputy on numerous occasions, the commission is independent. I do not say "Send this one in" or "Do not send that one in". That is nothing to do with me. That is a matter for the commission. Nor is it anything to do with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. That is why we have an independent pay commission to look at the overall issue of pay. Nobody muzzled anybody. It is up to the commission.

The overall strength of the organisation is 94%. There is no delay in recruitment regarding the Reserve or enlisted members. A process relating to a competition will get under way shortly. For security reasons, I will not give the Deputy details regarding how many members of the Defence Forces are with the cyber unit in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment.

As far as I am aware, there are none.

I have been reassured by the Chief of Staff that it is very well resourced and that we do our best to facilitate any requests put to us. Cyber issues are security matters for the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment-----

Cybercapability.

The capability development plan is an ongoing project but it is a priority. A significant amount of work has been carried out in respect of it. The Deputy asked about qualifications in the Defence Forces. I will come back to him on that.

In the Department.

In the context of amendments required for the DFR R5, structure of the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, and DFR S7, establishment of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, the regulations encompass a broad range of matters from finance to human resources to training matters to effectiveness criteria. Amendments of DFR S7 are linked to DFR R5. The former cannot be finalised with the latter being completed. Amendments are very complex and time-consuming and require extensive consultation. It is anticipated that the initial draft of the revised DFR R5 will be available within the coming months. The Office of the Attorney General has been snowed under due to Brexit, which has delayed all legislation. I am not stating that it has delayed this specifically but we depend totally on the staff of the Office of the Attorney General to assist us in drawing up legislation. This is very complex legislation. We have one opportunity to get it right and we want to ensure that we do so. I expect the revised DFR R5 will be available in the coming months.

A couple of my questions were not answered. I asked about-----

Sorry, the Deputy asked about Brexit and the memorandum of understanding. Any consultation I have had with my ministerial colleagues in the UK relates to a memorandum of understanding. Brexit has no impact on that whatsoever. That was signed in 2015 and it is working extremely well. There is significant communication between my Department, the British Ministry of Defence, our Defence Forces and the British Armed Forces. The memorandum of understanding that was signed between their Minister, Michael Fallon, and our then Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, will stand. Brexit has no impact on that.

The last question I asked was about the EU Partnership for Peace in-depth evaluation of Ireland's military capability, which is ongoing. Will the Minister of State publish it?

I will come back to the Deputy on that.

Since the White Paper was published, I have engaged through a number of parliamentary questions. I find the way the White Paper is laid out strange. There is no harm in it. If one reads through it, one will just about find what the tasks and targets are. The Minister of State mentioned 95. We were originally told it was 88. There is no list within the White Paper itself so sometimes it is very difficult to judge. Most other documents of that scale have the target, purpose and timeframe in which it is hoped that goals will be achieved at the end. I know the Minister of State has supplied some of that material to me since. It makes it difficult for people looking in to gauge whether the Minister of State, Department or military authorities are successful in achieving what has been set out. It is quite obvious that we are not achieving some goals.

There is a chapter on retention of soldiers. Recruitment is being achieved. We have seen people being recruited and cadets being sworn in recently. I congratulate them. There is a dilemma that we have discussed in the committee, of recruitment and retention and the problems that creates for military authorities while trying to plan for the future. If one has a cohort of older, more experienced soldiers leaving and newer recruits, it makes it difficult to plan major events, overseas operations, fisheries protection operations or for whatever skills are then missing. In recent years, air ambulances have not been able to provide the full cover that is expected of the Defence Forces by the public. It is conditional on their availability but the public has, or at least had, a view that the Defence Forces are available as an aid to the civil power. The military authorities can only do that if they have the personnel and equipment required. We have seen a number of occasions where they have been constrained or where it has created difficulties relating to a lack of soldiers or equipment.

An issue I have with regard to the role of the Defence Forces is that there should be greater concentration on preparing the Defence Forces for more operations abroad, such as disaster relief and infrastructural works. They have shown in Ireland that they can do that. They have been quite good if a bridge goes down, for example.

The change to a two brigade system meant the loss of one of the engineering units and a lack of equipment for disaster and humanitarian relief. I have a different view to most recent Governments, which seem to have embraced the EU battlegroup role for the Irish Defence Forces rather than peacekeeping and helping in disaster zones around the country.

My criticism of the review is that the White Paper should be made more accessible. The Minister of State set out the 95 targets or tasks so that when the cyclical reviews come up, it is easier for people on the outside to comment and say that they want there to be more focus on certain matters. Brexit has really changed much of what was set out in the White Paper. The Minister of State is here this week and it is a pity that it is not next month, since we might have some surety about it then. That will impact on the call on the Defence Forces relating to Border duties. There are stories about gardaí being trained. There is a plan already in place to put some of the new recruits in the Border region in preparation for a possible hard border. We saw the issue of fisheries last week. That will become a greater problem or duty for the Defence Forces in the near future if we do not have the agreement that we intend. The Defence Forces and the Department, when preparing the White Paper, would not have been aware of Brexit coming down the track. They would not have been focusing as much on that aspect of security. While I know it has been done, that suggests a need to continually review the security situation as the Brexit issue develops.

I have raised this issue before so it is more of a comment than a question. The first duty of the military authorities and the Department is to respect and protect the members of the Defence Forces and to enhance morale. There are a number of issues and events that have happened in recent years which are contributing to lowering that morale. I have not heard any problem with regard to protection of soldiers. I think they are happy with the protection. Respect for soldiers has been brought into question by the lack of proper wages and proper health and safety standards in the past.

I will take Senator O'Sullivan. We are running into time constraints again and have the select committee soon.

I will keep it very tight. I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. It is good that the Minister of State wanted to engage with us. Having said that, maybe I was ill-prepared for the meeting or my expectations were different, but I am disappointed and underwhelmed by what the Minister of State has to say to us. He says he wants to listen to our views but at the same time, for anyone looking in from outside, White Papers and Green Papers are like dancing on the head of a pin. People want to know where the beef is and what the Minister of State's vision is for the Defence Forces. We cannot treat White Papers and Green Papers as an ongoing circle of bureaucracy.

The Defence Forces are highly respected and held in high regard by the public, and rightly so. As Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan said, their work as peacekeepers in the UN is exemplary and something of which we are all very proud. We are also proud of the profile the Army has in many State functions. I particularly welcomed its activities in schools during the 1916 centenary. It is also lovely to see the Army band in communities. When there are weather and climate crises, the Army plays a role and this is also appreciated. These are the upsides as far as I can see but there are some serious downsides. The Minister of State said the White Paper is not the place to speak about Army pay or all of the resignations and buy-outs from the Army. Perhaps we will have another day for that. Is the Minister of State concerned about morale in the Defence Forces? The morale of any force, be it the Garda, Army or Naval Service, is important. It is important for us as committee members to know whether the Minister of State is happy with the state of morale in our Defence Forces.

Insofar as the White Paper deals with it, will the Minister give us an update on where we are with Army property? There has been a lot of speculation that some of our big barracks, such as Cathal Brugha Barracks, will be used for housing. I am not saying it is good or bad; I would just like to know the future of Army property in rural towns, such as Listowel, where we used to have slua halls and FCA property. What is the future for this type of property, as the Minister of State sees it?

Does the Minister of State have plans to inject new life into the RDF? Recently in the Seanad I mentioned to him that I thought the FCA was an exemplary force that gave a lot of young people in Ireland training in life skills, a sense of patriotism and something useful. The Army has a very low profile in the country. This is not necessarily a bad thing. I am not looking for militarisation. The Army has a very low profile, particularly outside of Dublin. This is something the Minister of State could look at by reviving and putting more funding into voluntary reserve forces, such as the FCA used to be.

The Army has done very well so far in the centenary of commemorations. We are halfway through the commemoration the War of Independence. Shortly, we will move on to commemorating the Civil War. There were no angels on either side of that terrible sad divide and republicans, no more than anyone else, committed atrocities. Nonetheless, some major atrocities were committed by the State and the army of the Free State in the name of the people. Statements were made in the Dáil by the Minister for Defence at the time that need to be corrected. Has the Minister of State taken an advanced view on how this will be handled? It is a very sensitive area and nobody is looking for triumph in this regard, particularly not me. It would be as well for the Minister of State to have a plan to deal with these issues as they will undoubtedly arise.

I will respond to Deputy Ó Snodaigh first. There are 88 projects in the White Paper but a number of them have subprojects and rather than trying to hide the figure of 88, I said 95. I hope that explains it.

Recruitment and retention are challenges for the Defence Forces but it is a challenge for defence forces throughout Europe and armed forces throughout the world. When I speak to my European counterparts, they face the same issues I do. We have funding for a full strength of 9,500. The Government has provided this. Recruitment will be open in the next short while. I do not have the exact date but it will be shortly. This is with regard to Reserve personnel, enlisted personnel and cadets.

With regard to the ambulance service out of Athlone, I am not sure there have been constraints. It has been fully operational and is very successful. No one has stated to me it has been unable to fly. If it has been unable to operate, it must have been for a specific reason.

When the helicopter is being serviced it tries to provide-----

Last year, for instance, flights at night were restricted-----

It is because of the type of helicopter we have that we do not fly at night time.

Sometimes it was because personnel were not available on certain nights.

We have a memorandum of understanding with the HSE that we will provide the service when available.

It was not a criticism-----

It is provided when it is available but if it is not available, that suggests there is a shortage that needs to be addressed.

To date, the Defence Forces have been able to honour all asks by the Government, at home or overseas. The Deputy referred to operations abroad and perhaps assisting abroad where there is a catastrophe. At present, where we are on peacekeeping duties we reach out into the communities.

The Deputy also referred to the reorganisation and the number of engineers. We reduced from three brigades to two brigades but there was no reduction in the number of engineers. The key aspects of the reorganisation included consolidating understrength units into a smaller number of full strength units and a reduction in the number of headquarters and the associated redeployment of personnel from administrative and support functions to operational units.

With regard to Brexit, when the White Paper on Defence was published, it was not even born. There have been a large number of changes since then. I will not pre-empt what will happen next week. The defence organisations are engaged in prudent planning in response to Brexit. This includes active participation in the whole-of-Government framework developed in response to Brexit. Primary responsibility for the internal security of the State rests with the Department of Justice and Equality, my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, An Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners. There is ongoing close liaison between An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces regarding security matters, with regular co-ordination and liaison meetings.

The Deputy raised fisheries protection. There are implications for increased monitoring, patrolling and inspecting of Irish controlled waters. This will depend on the outcome when the UK departs. It will be a matter for the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority in association with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. As I stated earlier, a senior official at assistant secretary level in the Department is leading the input into the deliberations of the framework established throughout the Government. The management board also maintains oversight of all Brexit-related matters in the Department.

Avoiding a hard border on the island is fundamental to the draft Brexit agreement reached between the EU and UK Government. There are no plans to introduce a new Army barracks or Defence Forces base in the greater Border region. However, the Defence Forces keep operational plans under constant review. I am satisfied the operational readiness and deployability of the Defence Forces is such that they can respond effectively to whatever is required by the State or the Government. The White Paper was originally put together in 2015 and the security situation is a fundamental part of the White Paper review. In my opening statement I referred to reviewing the security situation of the State. If Senator Ned O'Sullivan reads what I said about the objectives of the White Paper, that is the meat. That is my vision. It is the Government's vision of where we see the Defence Forces over the next ten years. That is why, as I stated earlier, it is important that we review the White Paper.

The strategy statement sets that out very clearly.

Morale is very important within any organisation, be it a political party, the Defence Forces, An Garda Síochána, a Department or the HSE. However, leadership is as important as morale. That is my leadership and that of military management and civil management. I have an excellent team around me, military and civil. It is very important that we show leadership. Of course we have our challenges but every organisation has its challenges.

On the role of the Reserve, I have stated on numerous occasions that it is an important platform for the organisation as a whole and that it plays a very important role within the organisation. Numbers have been dwindling because younger people have more opportunities now than they did 20 or 30 years ago. The Government has provided the funding for full training days for the reserves. There is no lack of funding for their training days. They are well funded.

Over the past 25 years, my Department has disposed of a range of properties deemed surplus to military requirements. Since 1998, under the barracks consolidation programme, the sale has been completed of 12 of the 14 barracks closed under this programme. They were Fermoy, Castleblayney, Naas, Ballincollig, Clancy Barracks in Dublin, Monaghan, Longford, Cavan - they were new barracks - Letterkenny, Kildare, Clonmel and Lifford. The sale of Castlebar barracks to Mayo County Council will be completed in the near future.

The newly established Land Development Agency, LDA, has identified Columb barracks in Mullingar, which closed in 2012, as a viable solution to the provision of residential units, and it will form a significant contribution to the 3,000 units to be targeted by the agency in this first tranche of the provision. Project management branch has, on my instruction, continued to liaise with the relevant officials in the LDA and the transfer of the site to the agency is a priority, subject to terms and conditions that are yet to be agreed.

Currently, €37 million worth of capital projects are at various stages, from design to tender to construction. These include the replacement of the major secure storage facility, phases 2 and 3, in the Defence Forces training centre, €10.2 million; the construction of new gymnasiums in Sarsfield barracks in Limerick and Stephen's barracks in Kilkenny, €6 million; locker block refurbishment in Cathal Brugha barracks, Dublin, €3.8 million; upgrade and refurbishment works at the cook house and dining hall in Custume barracks, Athlone, €4.1 million, which is under construction at the moment; the upgrade of accommodation blocks in Pearse barracks in the Curragh, €3.1 million; upgrade and refurbishing works in the apprentice hostel in Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, €3.3 million; the upgrade of the oil wharf and installation of fire protection and detection and a fire-fighting system in the naval base on Haulbowline, €2.4 million; the upgrade of one and two block accommodation facilities in Cathal Brugha barracks, €2.4 million; and the upgrade of seven block accommodation facilities in Connolly barracks at the Defence Forces training centre, €2.1 million.

The White Paper project is also under way to put in place a five-year plan for the programme. The list of works identified as part of the project will be prioritised for delivery based on military needs and will be updated annually to form the basis of the selection of capital projects under the programme into the near future, and new start projects to be commenced in 2020 will be informed by the projects.

The Minister of State liked that question.

Absolutely. I also want to make it clear that there are no plans for the sale of Cathal Brugha barracks.

The decade of commemorations is the responsibility of the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Madigan. Following on from the work done on the 1916 commemorations, which were really successful, there is an all-party commemorations committee. We must be very careful in the context of the decade of commemorations. If an all-party committee worked for the 1916 commemorations, there is no reason it should not work for the decade of commemorations.

I thank the Minister of State. There is a vote in the Dáil. I will make just one quick comment to the Minister of State. Departments and statutory agencies often have a habit of having the usual consultees on the development of Green Papers or White Papers. We do not respect corporate knowledge enough. I would love to see people who may have left the Department and the Defence Forces and those who have served overseas get the opportunity to contribute. One thing we are very bad at is recognising corporate knowledge and its importance. Deputy Ó Snodaigh referred to this matter as well.

We have a select committee meeting on Estimates immediately-----

Is it one quick comment?

A point I made was not addressed. When one reads the White Paper, the 88 or 95 projects do not jump out immediately. One must read the whole document, which is fine, but for members of the general public to try to gauge whether we are being successful and whether we are achieving those projects, it would be a useful exercise if they were available with the White Paper or as an appendix or something in the future.

I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh. May I just-----

Chairman-----

Very quickly.

The Deputy has a point. We might be able to do that. To address the Chairman's point, my assistant secretary to my left has worked on the White Paper since 2000 so he has almost 20 years of corporate knowledge in this area. He is very well versed in-----

I am not suggesting otherwise. However, the good knowledge that exists is often written out of the script in all respects and not just in the Department.

I thank the Minister of State and the members for their engagement this afternoon. The joint committee stands adjourned until Thursday, 4 April 2019, when we will meet the former Tánaiste, Mr. Eamon Gilmore, to discuss conflict resolution and the Colombian peace process. I remind members that the select committee will meet immediately after the vote in the Dáil.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 4 April 2019.
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