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Wednesday, 5 Nov 2025

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Apprenticeships: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

You are all very welcome to today's meeting. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute their microphone when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. I remind all of those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

As the witnesses are in the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Today's meeting is about apprenticeships. The witnesses are: Mr. Stephen Lown from Aontas na Mac Léinn in Éirinn, AMLÉ; Ms Jamie Lee Maguire and Mr. Darragh McAuley from Dublin Bus; and Mr. Patrick Duffy, Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy and Mr. Richard McElwaine from Dundalk Institute of Technology. You are all very welcome to the committee. We will go straight into it and I invite Mr. Lown from AMLÉ to make his opening statement.

Mr. Stephen Lown

I thank the members for their invitation to speak today. I am speaking on behalf of apprentices within AMLÉ, which speaks for over 400,000 students across the island of Ireland. I am especially grateful for the opportunity to talk about apprenticeships, as I am currently in phase 5 of my electrical apprenticeship. I completed my second phase in Thurles ETB and my fourth phase in Technical University of the Shannon, Limerick.

Apprentices have to face many challenges to complete their phases and be fully qualified. I am here today to speak to these issues so that we can address them and support future generations of apprentices to come. In speaking to other apprentices in different fields, as well as given my own experience in my field, several issues have been raised that I wish to bring to the committee's attention.

I am fortunate enough to be in a supportive company where I have the backing of my company to pay for my tools up front, and I am in a position to pay for them through my wages throughout the time I work there. I am aware, however, that this is not the case for all my fellow apprentices, who have to pay for the cost of the tools up front, which leaves many people financially deprived as they start vocational education. For many who are not in as fortunate a position as I am, a grant or fund that could be used for tools would go a long way for apprentices to start out. Efficient tools are very important within the field of electrical apprenticeship, as using the correct tools can allow us to pick up on faults that we may have missed if our tools were not up to industry standards. This is a massive safety concern for us when we are on the job, as we are reliant on our tools to be another barrier of safety for us on the job. This applies pressure on us to get the best of the best when it comes to our tools, which leaves us with a financial burden starting off.

It is quite a challenge when it comes to the transition between phases when an apprentice has to travel the length of the country to attend the educational training. The support that is currently available is not fit for execution. The lodging support that we get is €70 per week. This is for the accommodation in the location we have been moved to. This is not to mention the accommodation I would have to pay for at home if I was not living with my family or the shortage of accommodation that is available for students across the country already. If an apprentice is unable to avail of the lodging support, the only other financial support available is the fuel allowance, which is capped at €30 per week regardless of the cost that it may be to the apprentice. I would also like to touch on the lack of parking on campuses. This makes it quite challenging to accommodate students, let alone all of us apprentices as well.

The next point is the cost of the college phases and the fees that they incur. The fees were previously €666, which was a 33% decrease from €1,000. The fees have now increased since the beginning of my apprenticeship. This has been a difficult adjustment for many apprentices, who have to cover the cost of their own fees. If the fees are not paid, the results of the examinations are withheld. This is a huge financial burden for apprentices. For those apprentices that are fortunate to be covered by a company, it is important to have communication between the colleges and the companies in relation to the fees. A centralised system between the colleges and the companies would be more efficient.

More consideration must be given to those who need to access the college phases of an apprenticeship. Unlike college students, who get to choose which college they wish to attend, apprentices are not afforded that luxury. I have been fortunate enough with my phases to be somewhat local to home, but I have no idea where I will be placed for phase 6, and I will not know until I get called. We would appreciate if more consideration was given when it comes to the phases to cater for a wider age range than an 18-year-old straight out of school and consideration was given to the fact that some people have families and mortgages in one location, as it is more difficult for a person to up and leave for 12 weeks when he or she has additional responsibilities in the home. It is important to consider supporting systems for the different progression paths in life as we deal with a wide range of age groups within the apprenticeship programmes. For example, if an apprentice lives in Dublin, works in Dublin and pays rent in Dublin but is then moved to Cork for 12 weeks, he or she must pay costs in Cork as well as Dublin, along with all the other financial costs that may be incurred because of that move.

It is important to note that throughout the apprenticeship industry there has been a backlog of apprenticeships progressing to the college phases of their apprenticeships, especially for the mechanical automation and maintenance fitting, MAMF, and mechanical. Currently in Ireland, we see a large amount of our qualified youth leave for greener pastures elsewhere. This is important when it comes to apprenticeships. Once apprentices are fully qualified, companies notice that it is more difficult to retain qualified apprentices due to better opportunities abroad.

Although there are many issues to note throughout this discussion, I compliment the Government on its Building Heroes initiative, throughout the Department, as this has seen an uptake of young people choosing apprenticeships. I call for the following: an upfront cost of tools supported at the beginning stages; financial supports for lodging and fuel; fees abolished for college phases 2, 4 and 6; location preferences given for education phases; and to clear the backlog in certain industries.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to speak here today. I hope I have given an insight into the life of an apprentice and what improvements need to be made.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Lown. I call on Ms Jamie Lee Maguire to begin her opening statement for Dublin Bus and she has five minutes.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for inviting me to speak today. I am joined by my colleague, Darragh McAuley. I am a third year bus apprentice mechanic with Dublin Bus and Darragh is in his fourth and final year. We are here to share our experience of the apprenticeship programme and highlight the value of skills, not just to people like me but to the wider economy and society.

When I started my apprenticeship, I am sure some people saw it as a second choice to college. For me, it has been the opposite. It has been the most rewarding, challenging and fulfilling path that I could have taken. Every day I learn from skilled people who keep Dublin moving by maintaining buses that hundreds of thousands of people rely on to get to work, school and home. Apprenticeships give people real skills, real responsibility and a real career. An apprentice is not just studying theory but applying it. An apprentice is part of a team that delivers something tangible. In my case that means keeping buses safe and reliable. I can see the results of my work in the buses that leave the depot every morning.

I want to challenge the idea that apprenticeships are only for men and are somehow less ambitious. They are not. They are for anyone who wants to build, fix, design, create or innovate. I am proud to be part of a generation that is changing perceptions and showing that skilled work is smart work. Ireland needs more people with technical skills. As we seek to tackle the big issues facing the country, like housing and climate, the need for people with technical skills has never been greater. Apprenticeships like mine are central to that effort. They create pathways for young people, help employers fill critical roles and build the skills base on which our economy depends.

Today, I have visited the place of work of politicians and seen how seriously members takes their work. I invite the Cathaoirleach and members to visit our workplace so that they can see at first hand the skill, dedication and teamwork that go into maintaining the fleet. To me, this is not just a job. It is a career with purpose. I am part of something bigger, keeping Dublin moving. This is not a second choice. It is a rewarding career that gives purpose. We need teachers, particularly guidance counsellors, to highlight that there is another path beyond college. I want the message to go out that apprenticeships are a smart choice and a real career. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to share my experience.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Maguire. I call on Mr. Patrick Duffy to begin his opening statement on behalf of the Dundalk Institute of Technology.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Good afternoon everyone. I am joined by Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy and Mr. Richard McElwaine. I have recently qualified as an electrician. I am really proud to be part of the electrical apprenticeship programme, which has given me the opportunity to build my skills, gain real experience and become a fully qualified electrician. I started my apprenticeship a little later than most do, at 26, having worked in the financial services sector for a number of years. However, I can honestly say it was absolutely worth it. As an apprentice, my role was to learn through both practical, hands-on experience and formal education. Day to day, I worked alongside experienced electricians, installing, maintaining and testing electrical systems in all kinds of environments. Every day on site is different and every day brings something new to learn, whether it is problem-solving a fault, reading technical drawings or understanding the latest safety standards.

The apprenticeship programme is very well structured. It is a standards-based apprenticeship that includes seven phases, alternating between on-the-job training with an employer and off-the-job training in an educational setting. This balance between theory and practice is what makes the programme so effective and enjoyable. It means we are constantly applying what we learn in college to industry. I completed phases 4 and 6 off-the-job phases in Dundalk Institute of Technology. DkIT played a huge role in my development. The lecturers there are incredibly supportive, with years of industry experience so they know exactly what it takes to succeed on site. The college also provides excellent workshop facilities, where we get to work with modern equipment and tools in a safe and supervised manner.

Beyond the technical skills, DkIT helped me to build the broader professional skills that are needed for my career, such as teamwork, communication, time management and problem solving. There is also a strong focus on health and safety, which is essential in our trade. What I really appreciate about the programme is that it is not just about getting a qualification, it is about developing as a person and as a professional. The programme teaches responsibility, independence and to take pride in one's work. By the end of my four years, I did not only gain a nationally recognised qualification, I also gained experience and confidence to take on real challenges in the electrical industry.

In summary, being an apprentice electrician in Ireland is a fantastic opportunity. It is a programme that combines education and employment, learning and earning, and theory and practice. With the support of DkIT and the wider apprenticeship system, I know that I am building a strong foundation for a successful career in the electrical trade.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Duffy. Members will now ask questions and if witnesses want to answer they should raise a hand and then make their contribution. Substituting for Deputy Maeve O'Connell is Deputy Paula Butterly, who is our first speaker today.

Deputy Paula Butterly

I thank the Chair for facilitating me to speak in place of Deputy Maeve O'Connell. I thank the witnesses for their contributions. The apprentices have been totally inspiring and all of them have underlined the benefits of an apprenticeship. I was particularly taken by the fact that Ms Maguire said, and quite rightly, that apprenticeships are not just for men. We must have women just like her leading the way more and more. Right from the outset I have been a firm believer that apprenticeships are not an alternative for those who cannot get to college. They are an alternative way of life and a rewarding career and need to be promoted, and rightly so.

Ms Maguire also highlighted the fact that teachers and career guidance counsellors need to get behind apprenticeships. We are rolling out an increasing number of courses and I believe there are huge opportunities, be it aviation, etc. As a Louth woman, like the Chair, we are constantly beating the drum for more courses for DkIT and the Drogheda Institute of Further Education, DIFE. There are huge opportunities and I believe we have only tapped the surface.

I take on board the call to provide training allowances and for apprentices to be rewarded for the work they do at the time, but also that apprentices are not faced with additional pressures outlined while studying and working. They are challenges and rightly so because apprentices mostly start at 18 years of age. I will be advocating on behalf of all that.

I would like to hear from the apprentices as to how we, as a Government, can support them when they finish their apprenticeships. I am a great believer in constantly learning and constantly having to upskill. As a Government, how can we help apprentices post-apprenticeship?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

Post apprenticeship for me, as a Dublin Bus mechanic, my colleagues and I are working on electrical vehicles in Dublin Bus garages but such work is not in the curriculum for college. It would be great if such work could be added to the curriculum because apprentices could learn about electric buses in college as opposed to learning about them in the garage.

Deputy Paula Butterly

Does anybody else want to mention additional courses?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

DkIT has a number of courses whereby apprentices can continue with their studies. It must be drilled into people that they can tackle these courses. Perhaps subsistence could be provided to allow people to study further afield. I undertook a level 8 accounting and finance degree in DkIT so one could nearly say I have used my benefit of going to college and getting a level 8 degree. If I were to return to college now I would be faced with having to pay college fees as a mature student. I went to college and decided that I an apprenticeship was for me instead. Now, if I want to go further afield the burden will be on me, and rightly so.

There should be more incentives and career opportunities to do so. Right now, if I upskill, I become an engineer. There are limitations on where someone can go with that. It is a very broad spectrum. You need to know where you might want to go. If you study mechatronics in an advanced PLC, you are stuck in that field. We need to have a broader range of courses, especially on the electrical side of things. I cannot speak for the boys, as they are in plumbing and carpentry, but for me, I look to upskill and see where I can go. At the minute, Sligo is the closest one I can see. It means that, one day a month, I have to travel to Sligo and be there physically. It is the other side of the country.

Deputy Paula Butterly

We would like to keep those courses in County Louth but I am quite sure Deputy Feighan would welcome Mr. Duffy to Sligo.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Of course.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

We would be delighted to have him.

Deputy Paula Butterly

Some work will have to be done.

Deputy Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. They were excellent. It is great to get it straight from the horse's mouth because, at previous meetings, we listened to groups that oversaw apprentices along with the various institutions, IBEC and a whole host of groups. To actually get it from young people's mouths is far better. A point I have often made over the years is that Ireland has looked down its nose on the idea of apprenticeship over the past three decades even though we always use to value it. People say someone needs to have a university degree because it is the up and coming thing to have. We have ended up with a shortage of basic skills, even in terms of bus drivers, as Ms Maguire pointed out. There is a huge crisis in bringing children to primary school because we do not have bus drivers. That is one of the issues coming forward and needs to be looked at.

In many ways, we are in a bubble in Leinster House, so it is crucial that we listen to the voices of young people. We do not listen to young people enough.

Small supports were mentioned, such as lodging and fuel allowance, which are inadequate, and the fee increases. Obviously, they are huge challenges. Are many of the witnesses' colleagues and people they know considering emigrating while they are on the courses? Do many of the witnesses believe they themselves might emigrate once they are finished their courses? It would be a huge and tragic loss to Ireland.

I know it was covered in the last question, but I wonder what the number one priority should be for us. Within Leinster House, it is so hard to get change done sometimes. It is excruciatingly slow. Getting something achieved is glacial in some ways. Will the witnesses give us an idea as to what one small thing could be done as a priority?

Mr. Darragh McAuley

When people ask you what you do for a job or what you are studying and you say it is a trade, the next question is usually about where you are going to move afterwards, Australia or Canada. It is not about where you are going to move within Ireland. We should look at the funding and at bettering the apprenticeships in college. As Ms Maguire said, we should look at learning about electric buses and the hybrid side of things. Bettering the courses and the funding for apprenticeships would help the apprenticeships.

Mr. Stephen Lown

There are better opportunities and offers abroad. In terms of keeping apprentices, making it easier to learn how to go out on your own and start your own company instead of working for someone else would be a big suggestion on the electrical side of things.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

To continue what has been said, I sat in on a meeting in DkIT where we talked about exactly that. When you finish college and your seven phases, what is next? The big thing was that, in phase two, you cover two weeks' worth of communications skills. You start learning how to do an invoice, emails and letters. Sometimes, people might not have seen anything like that before. That alone should be in phase six. There is no point in it being in phase two - unless you are doing nixers - as you are not drafting up an invoice at that stage. That is separate.

When you are finished your phase six, you should be able to generate an email and maybe price a job but through a set system that is installed in the apprenticeship. It should teach about an invoice and things like that and maybe even about how to do a small bit with daybooks. It should be something along the lines that will set you up to either work your own business or step into a new career or a career within your association where you can guide people within it. The communications module in college sometimes feels like it is just there for the sake of being there. It is an added module in order to give you the recognition of your qualification. It does not benefit anyone unless you put the fundamental bits for your next step in there. If you do not have the likes of the next step, there is no point. Anyone can pick up a PC after a little bit of training and understand what to do with it but unless it is familiar to you and you are taught exactly what you might need, the person who comes out of college and sets up their own business might not be able to do an invoice. They will then start losing money and say they do not have to do this because they can instead work for someone or go abroad and never have to worry about it again. That change alone should be brought in. It would be a small change here but a big one for further down the line.

Deputy Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin

I thank all the witnesses and ask the Cathaoirleach if we can have those noted as other matters we can look at.

An Cathaoirleach

They are all on the record.

Senator Dee Ryan

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. It is wonderful to be looking at a group of highly skilled young workers and all I can think is how do I get them to Limerick. We are crying out for all their skill sets in Limerick and there are probably more competitive rents than you might find in other parts of the country. That is my little pitch and I will leave it there.

I thank each of the witnesses for the work they have put into their opening statements and for taking the time to come up and talk to us. As my colleague said, it is great to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

I will stick with the theme we just discussed about next steps because it was an issue I wanted to ask about. I had the experience of leaving college at 22 years of age or whatever and deciding at 25 that I could do this and start my own business, so I went out on my own. In my experience, you must have an almost blinkered approach. You have to not realise how much of a step it is to take. There are essential supports, though. There are also essential skills that the witnesses can develop to help in that initiative. We need skilled people like those here today to do that. The country needs more of them, and in order to develop more of them, we need them to become the leaders and masters in their fields.

Within the training, are there any modules or supports as regards entrepreneurship, business development and developing business skills specifically for the witnesses' trades? I understand there are communications aspects to what they are doing. I remember how I went on an Enterprise Ireland "start your own business" course. Have those kinds of facility been made or offered to the witnesses yet? I certainly agree with my colleagues that it is something we want to reflect in our report to the Minister.

We are very serious about apprenticeships and the Government has put an additional €79 million into it in the budget this year. We will be at €400 million by the end of next year but we fully note and take onboard the comments that Mr. Lown and others have been making about the cost of equipment. That is something where the Minister has indicated in discussions that he wants to move towards bringing in a contribution towards it, insofar as his budget will allow. The witnesses will be aware that there are discussions in the Department about reducing student registration fees. He has a certain amount of money he can spend and he is trying to ensure he builds on it every year and fighting for more every year. In particular, he is targeting apprentices like the witnesses to ensure more people go into trades.

I have a second question. I am a parent with four kids and there is at least one, if not two, who I would love to guide them into the witnesses' fields because I see huge business opportunities in it. I see a huge opportunity for someone who is sales oriented and who likes to do a deal. I see great opportunities to do well and develop businesses.

What attracted each of you to do an apprenticeship in the beginning? What drew you to it?

Mr. Stephen Lown

I was always interested in the likes of electrical and working with my hands. I was never really for sitting down and studying or sitting in the same office day in and day out. I was more hands-on. The company I am with now, I have that and we have such a wide range of work I am never doing the same thing.

Senator Dee Ryan

Was it suggested to Mr. Lown in school or was there someone he knew who was doing it?

Mr. Stephen Lown

It was more through social media I found it. It was not really being pushed in schools. They wanted us to fill out our CAO form, this, that and the other. There was no mention that we had the apprenticeships there as well. That would be another thing to try to get people more people into it. The building heroes campaign is a good thing that has been mentioned to me a good few times.

Mr. Richard McElwaine

In my school all they wanted you to do was just go to college. If you said you wanted to do an apprenticeship they would nearly turn their back on you. It looks bad on the school, nearly, if someone goes on to do an apprenticeship.

Senator Dee Ryan

So Mr. McElwaine could have gotten more support in school. What did open your eyes to it?

Mr. Richard McElwaine

Woodwork was always my favourite subject in school. My woodwork teacher asked would I do an apprenticeship and that is how I got into it.

Senator Dee Ryan

Brilliant.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

In my school I was never approached and nothing was ever said about apprenticeships. Nothing was done in the school that was a practical subject like woodwork or metalwork. It is not mentioned in female-only schools. I feel like that would help girls realise that maybe they do want to work with their hands or this is something they can follow. It is just not there for girls-only schools.

Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy

I completely agree. At school it was all about going to college. That was all that was said. I did go to college, I think I lasted two weeks, and I said this is not for me. My dad had a business and he said he would give me a dig out to work for a few weeks and see what I thought of that. I ended up enjoying it, I loved doing it and I have not looked back since.

Senator Dee Ryan

Brilliant. Mr. Duffy's story is an excellent story for how people can move into the area. It is fabulous.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

When I finished school in 2011, the time that it was in the country, everyone said trades were not going to keep going. I was very heavily pushed towards college. I always loved working with my hands, the exact same, I was a person who could not sit down for two minutes. I was pushed towards college so I did a FETAC level 5 in e-business, a start-your-own-business course. I went from there into accounting and finance in DKIT, got my honours, worked as an accountant, did not like it, went labouring and loved it, but I said I had the degree and might as well use it. I went back to work in the financial services sector, did my courses there and became a qualified financial advisor and retirement planner. I still did not like it and realised I should take the plunge and went back. I am glad I did. The rumours go around about another potential recession and so on but I would push them away. The work is there. I would promote anyone to do an apprenticeship now.

Senator Pauline Tully

The committee's purpose in looking at the role of apprenticeships is to try to improve it and our guests have given some suggestions on how that should be done. They will be taken on board and put into the report. Ms Maguire's and Mr. Duffy's reports were glowing and would definitely encourage others to take this up. Mr. Lown has outlined some of the issues that apprentices face like the cost of tools if they have to buy them up-front, fees and accommodation in the different college phases. Did Ms Maguire and Mr. Duffy experience those problems as well? For Ms Maguire in particular, I wanted to ask her if there are many women doing the apprenticeship she is doing. We are hearing that schools do not promote apprenticeships. I am on the committee for education and youth so it is something I will be bringing up there. Schools should be doing an awful lot more to encourage students to go into apprenticeships. Possibly it has something to do with the type of school it is as well. I taught in an ETB school and we would have encouraged students to do apprenticeships, but that might not be the case in all schools, particularly in all-girls schools.

Mr. Lown also mentioned the backlog in certain industries. I am just wondering what is causing that. I have heard from some apprentices that their employer has not registered them as quickly as they should. They thought they were registered but when they ask when they are going to be invited to phase 2, they realise they have not been registered. It increases the time they are going to have to serve in the apprenticeship. Is that one of the issues? What are the other issues the committee could put in our report?

Mr. Stephen Lown

One of the issues is the backlog going to phases. I know a good few people who are going into the fifth year of their apprenticeships and they are only getting called to go into phase 6, which is delaying them another year of their apprenticeship. That was brought up.

Senator Pauline Tully

Is that because there are not enough spaces in the college?

Mr. Stephen Lown

Students are limited in where they can go with mechanical and MAMF.

Senator Pauline Tully

There needs to be an increase in the number of tutors, basically.

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes.

Senator Pauline Tully

Mr. Lown mentioned the location preferences. It will suit different people to go to different areas. Some might want to stay near to home for various reasons and others might want to get away for a change. You are just offered a place, basically, and it is only if you can swap it with someone, is that it?

Mr. Stephen Lown

A letter is sent out with the start date and location. It is possible to swap it but sometimes we don't have the time or someone to swap with. I understand that it is nice to get away from home now and again but it would be nice to have an option to pick where we can go, for other people in different situations. There are a good few people I know who are renting and moving away is a pain. Trying to fund two rents is quite hard.

Senator Pauline Tully

Mr. Duffy said he studied in Dundalk for two of his phases. Was that convenient?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes, thankfully I am only ten minutes away from the college so it suited me down to the ground. I have a house in Louth village just outside there so having everything local to me was perfect. I do know of people who I worked with being sent to the likes of Donegal with no accommodation. One stayed in a caravan that had mould in it and was still paying nearly €200 a week. To live in squalor is what you are doing. Everyone knows the accommodation is not there. Even DKIT's own third-level students do not have accommodation. It is hitting the country, it is not just limited to one area. There is not enough. For me to travel in is ten minutes and I get a small allowance on top of the wage that I earn while in college. There were a lot of people travelling in from Navan in my class and they were only getting a small bit more than me to travel. If they stayed, they would still be in deficit. There is no way to keep a level income against your expenses when you are in college, no matter what college you are in, unless you live beside it. That is the only way you can do it.

Senator Pauline Tully

Did Ms Maguire have to travel?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

I was called for phase 2 to Waterford and I had to defer. I have my own property here and I simply cannot afford to live here, pay bills, rent and so on, and do it in Waterford too. I never would have been able to afford it. I ended up having to delay my own apprenticeship because of that. Luckily enough, a couple of months later I did get called to Tallaght which is closer to me, so that was perfect in the end. Regarding college fees and tools, we are very fortunate in Dublin Bus that they cover the cost of that so we never had to do it. That takes a big burden away.

Senator Pauline Tully

So some employers do and some do not. It is just the luck of the draw, basically. Does anyone have any other comments?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

We actually have seven female apprentices. That was one of the questions the Senator asks. That is out of 89. There is a big percentage jump over the last couple of years. We have had more females coming in but there are seven in total.

Senator Pauline Tully

Having you here is good because if people cannot see it, they cannot be it. It is definitely something that should be encouraged.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

Definitely.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

It was only highlighted to me in phase 4 that there was an incentive with Revenue for those who had to pay for their own tools. People can get credit, something that is not highlighted. The person I spoke to on the phone when changing my tax credits told me she would put the credit down for me. Other than that, I would never have known about it. Now, because I buy my own tools, I know I get some sort of incentive. It is a little help.

Senator Pauline Tully

It is something that is probably not known.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Exactly. It is something to know. Perhaps we could give employers that information. If they are not paying for tools, it is something they should tell their staff about.

Senator Pauline Tully

There could be a grant or fund of some sort.

Mr. Darragh McAuley

On the backlog, the problem is that companies are hiring a lot more apprentices but colleges are not taking in more. The lack of instructors is an issue. In respect of phase 2, Tallaght, Cork and Waterford take on perhaps 20 apprentices per class. People are waiting a while for entry. I understand we took on 29 apprentices last year and nine of them will not get a place. There is a backlog and instructors are required.

Senator Pauline Tully

It is good to highlight that so we know what the issues are.

Deputy John Connolly

Like everybody else, I compliment the witnesses on their journey so far and wish them the best in completing it. Mr. O'Shaugnessy said he tried going to college but it was not for him. Mr. Duffy has experienced what we might describe as the standard format for most students as well as an apprenticeship programme. Mr. O'Shaughnessy's remark was not upsetting, but I wonder why he said the course was not for him. My interpretation of what we are trying to get to is that off-the-job phases of the apprenticeship programme should be the same as going to college, more or less. It should be the same experience. Why would he say it was not for him?

Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy

I picked a course and did not know what it was. Career guidance told me which courses might suit me but not once did they advise apprenticeships or anything like that. I went into a classroom and college with numbers and so on on a blackboard and did not have a clue what was going on. I tried the course for a while but could not do it. When I go to college for plumbing, I am interested in what is going on in the classroom. I am giving my opinion and getting feedback. I am actively learning. I have more of an interest in what I am learning.

Deputy John Connolly

That is interesting. Mr. Duffy said college did not provide him with a satisfying outcome and he did not enjoy the profession after he had studied for all of that time to get into it. Could that have been detected earlier?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes, I think so. Specifically on accounting and finance, what one learns in theory is not practice. That was the biggest difference for me. When you leave college, you know everything, but when you go into the real world, all of a sudden you realise that is not the case. It could depend on where someone works. I worked for a small family company – not my family – and did not like it. I realised that sitting in an office where I had to work in order to make my bread and butter was not for me.

Deputy John Connolly

It was never for Mr. Duffy. I assume he did a three-year course.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes. I would never drop out. I try to finish what I start. I enjoyed what I learned and I love accounting and finance, but it was not what I wanted to do in the real world of practice. I wanted to work with my hands rather than sit doing accounts for the rest of my life.

Deputy John Connolly

It is probably a flaw in the system that it is not more vocation-based throughout the three years of study.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

The timing was a small issue. It was during the recession. There were no job opportunities in the trades. My career guidance counsellor was fantastic but did not mention trades. She may have mentioned the fire service, An Post or something along the lines of a job for life because times were very iffy. There is always money in the financial sector. That was why I was put into the role. The only reason I continued to work in that role in a different sector was because I had a degree and did not want to waste it. I did not want to take a chance.

Deputy John Connolly

I have a stupid question for Mr. Maguire. I know nothing about what is under the bonnet of my car or a bus, but I have to trust my mechanic. I gather that training as a mechanic with Dublin Bus provides the opportunity to work with all types of vehicles.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

Yes.

Deputy John Connolly

Does Dublin Bus expect people to stay as an employee for a number of years after they have completed an apprenticeship?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

I do not think it is expected, but the company would like people to stay and it trains us to the best of our abilities. It wants us to stay and progress our careers in the company. Some 80% of our managers started as apprentices, which is brilliant.

Deputy John Connolly

After people have completed their apprenticeships with Dublin Bus, they can work in any car or bus industry. They are not expected to work there.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

I would be qualified to work on heavy vehicles.

Deputy John Connolly

Would there be an opportunity for you to work there?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

The company does not know until the end of the programme when the apprenticeship is up whether there are roles, and people could then be offered one.

Deputy John Connolly

Having been through the apprenticeship programme, are other people in the years ahead of Mr. Maguire getting opportunities to work in the company?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

Yes. I have not met anyone who has come to the end of their time as an apprentice and has not had a role available for them.

Deputy John Connolly

Are off-the-job phases allocated on a lottery basis? How are people selected for each location? How close is a company to an off-the-job phase?

Mr. Stephen Lown

What does the Deputy-----

Deputy John Connolly

I refer to the company someone is doing an apprenticeship with and where the off-the-job phases take place, such as college or whatever. How far away are they from each other?

Mr. Stephen Lown

It would be an hour and half to an hour and three quarters.

Deputy John Connolly

Is it lottery selection?

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes, it is a pure lottery. Two of my friends who are attending Tralee live in Roscrea. I do not know how people are allocated – I do not think anyone knows that. It is difficult because people do not know where they are going to be or when they will have to move.

Deputy John Connolly

When you knew you would have to do the off-the-job phases, did you know at that point you might have to go to a specific location?

Mr. Stephen Lown

I knew I would have to travel, but I did not know the location.

Deputy John Connolly

Could people be doing different phases in different colleges?

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes. Phase 2 for electrical and mechanical training is in an ETB training centre. Phases 4 and 6 are in colleges.

Deputy John Connolly

Phases 4 and 6 would be in the same college.

Mr. Stephen Lown

Not necessarily. People receive a letter a month in advance with the location.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

There is a page for electrical apprentices. Reference is made to swapping locations. People may have time to do that and can usually mutually agree a swap, but that still has to go through the colleges, which arrange to swap people. A college can deny such an arrangement. It is a lotto, unless there are personal circumstances, which are taken into account.

Deputy John Connolly

I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

Like my colleagues, I am delighted have the witnesses here today. We have heard from various stakeholders and it is great to hear from them about their lived experiences.

Mr. Duffy referenced the Revenue credit. We have a one-stop-shop in Leinster House. Are there one-stop-shops in colleges that can help? People learn about things by word of mouth. No matter what information people put out about what they are entitled to, we are busy in our own lives. There is an onus on colleges and ETBs to ask people what they need and advise how they can help. People have missed out on a lot of the opportunities and schemes that are available. It is in our interests that people avail of them.

As someone who is academic and not good with my hands, I was destined for politics. We lost track of things over the years by pushing everybody into academic careers. It is reassuring that the witnesses are here and have a role to play.

I say to everybody that I hope they make a fortune, with VAT included as well.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes, and the invoices.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

It is great to have the witnesses here. We need more people with technical skills. I think we have overcome the challenges with apprenticeships. We have gone from 5,000 to 10,000 apprentices now, and the witnesses are the people who are making that happen. This question has been asked already, but what more can we do? I know accommodation is a huge issue, including in Sligo, where people put the two fingers up, effectively, to the colleges there. We need to do much more as a Government and a State to provide student accommodation and make it more affordable. We have failed in that we need to do a lot more. I would like to get the views of the witnesses. Specifically for Ms Maguire, I was interested to hear that most of her managers started with apprenticeships. Perhaps she could be the CEO of Dublin Bus down the road or something like that.

Mr. Jamie Lee Maguire

One day.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

That is what I like to hear. It would be in great hands. I would just like to get some views on what we could do better.

Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy

From having listened to everybody here, maybe giving people the opportunity from a younger age, from when they are in secondary school, looking at the wall, wondering what is going on and what they will do. There are so many opportunities. People are kind of lost in themselves at that age. It would be a lot better if apprenticeships were more widespread for everybody and more people knew about them.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

People still think apprenticeships are for younger people, who are 16 and school is not for them or they have just finished school and want to go and do an apprenticeship. I know people who have mortgages and a family and would love to do an apprenticeship but they just cannot afford to do that and pay their bills and live.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

We talk about a one-stop shop, but the system can be very difficult to manoeuvre through. Someone was being sent to Waterford and someone else in Dundalk was going to Sligo. Could someone somewhere have asked if an intervention could have been made? I know sometimes in politics and life when we start making interventions it becomes unfair. In this situation, it would be reasonable. I wonder if there is anybody anywhere who ask where people want their first, second and third choice and ensure they have it. Being sent to Waterford or Sligo did not add up. Is there any mechanism we could use here?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

I went to Sligo to further educate myself. It is the only course that can facilitate me working and studying something I want to do at the same time and in that kind of environment. That is on me and I cannot blame anyone. In terms of preferences, while I understand there are limitations with numbers, etc., there should definitely be some kind of preference possible. The problem is that some people who are given a place in Cork, Sligo, Galway or Mayo - it does not matter where - might just take it because they could be just sitting there. The time needed to finish, in my case, is four years. I am lucky enough that I got finished in my four years, but I know people who, because of the Covid backlog, and again that was to do with the timing, were not finished until five and half years after starting their apprenticeships. It is a long time to maintain yourself on a course.

Some companies, for payment, do not go by your year but by the phase you are in. Someone could be getting the whole first year paid and may be thinking their wages will go up, all of a sudden, they are not. Until phase 2 is completed, the companies will not pay the apprentice a fair rate. This means someone could be on €200-plus a week, which I think is the rate for a first-year electrical apprentice, for maybe two and a half years until they do phase 2. When they do phase 2, because of the backlog, they get a phase 4 allowance and they do not know themselves. All of a sudden, the apprentice is getting a massive bump, but then their pay goes back down again. I am lucky enough that my employer never did that to me, but there are employers out there that do not pay union rates or the industry standard. A lot of people are getting paid a lot less.

Senator Mike Kennelly

I welcome all the witnesses to the committee. I have a bit of a meat in this because my son is in phase 4 of an electrical apprenticeship. I am hearing what the witnesses are saying about the difficulties and the positives, and I am hearing it at home as well. I know it is not all cons putting people off. The apprenticeship numbers are now up 75% since 2020, if that figure is right. There will be compounding issues in relation to what Mr. Lown said about location preferences. When people have friends living in Roscrea, they could finish up down in Tralee, whereas my son is attending MTU. This is going to be a bigger issue because, thankfully, more people are now applying for apprenticeships and, hopefully, there will be many more in the future too. How are we going to keep all these new apprentices at home? The apprentices are fairly comfortable in Limerick, but they are a lot more comfortable in Kerry, I will tell you that. All the witnesses are welcome down.

I do not have any severe questions. I am thrilled Ms Maguire invited us to her workplace, especially in the context of the female perspectives on apprenticeships. I know the Rose of Tralee this year would testify that there is a route for females in apprenticeships. There was a stigma back in the boom times when everyone was forced to get behind a computer and use their head with a pen rather than pick up a shovel, a hammer, a vice grip or whatever else. In my opinion, we have to go back to the schools. I am not sure who said it, but we do not have enough information going to kids. We have to start in first year when they are 13 or 14. We should set them up at 14 and 15 to be aware that there is a life if they are not academically set. I know that with a lot of the football teams I coached, half the people involved went on to do apprenticeships or are currently on apprenticeships. I would like Ms Maguire not only to go on tour here in the committee but also to do a tour of the schools and advise kids that this platform is there for anyone who wants to join it. The stigma has to be thrown out the window. It is a calling now with most of the apprenticeships. Let us be honest about that. If Mr. Duffy did not find that calling in the first one, he definitely found it in the second one.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes.

Senator Mike Kennelly

I am here as a newly elected Senator. I got everything Mr. Lown said. He gave us a list of five things I get every weekend from my own son when I get home. There is the abolition of the fees for phases 2, 4 and 6. There has been a reduction but I want them abolished. One of our programme for Government commitments is to abolish fees during the lifetime of the Government. The witnesses may be out of the system by the time that happens, but, hopefully, they will see another decrease in the fees in next year's budget.

On the support for tools at the beginner stages, this is especially important in the craft apprenticeships, which are tool-orientated. There is the issue of the cost of everything now, even outside of accommodation and travel, including the price of tools I have seen. These are standard tools apprentices will need when they go back out into the public realm. They will have to be adequate and safe, and there is a cost to that. We have to knock that in the teeth too.

Mr. Lown alluded to the location preference. My son was lucky because he got a place in Tralee. He is only about a 25-minute drive from it. Does it actually come down to a lottery? I am not sure where that concept came from. I asked the Department this question already but I have not got an answer yet. I do not think we will get one today, but perhaps Mr. Lown will be able to enlighten us. I cannot get the concept of it coming down to a lottery. Is a lack of instructors compounding the issue of availability in getting location places nearer to home?

Mr. Stephen Lown

I do not really know how it works either. You can get apprenticeships really close to you or really far from you. They have your information, so I do not see why they cannot just put that into the system, say, "That is two and half or three hours away from his house, which is a bit far to go", and try to find an apprenticeship closer to you. Sometimes - on very few occasions - there will be, for example, people in Limerick going to Dublin and Dublin people going down to Limerick. The easiest solution there would be to put the lads in Limerick in Limerick and the lads in Dublin in Dublin, but I do not know. I have not got a straight answer to it either. That would be the easiest, I would think.

Senator Mike Kennelly

Chair, if we can take anything from today and meeting these wonderful people, we can take a proposal to the Department as regards the nonsensicalities of working around the lotto system from a geographical point of view, whereby there is a target on a map of Ireland and you get the closest college to you.

I am enthralled with the guys. I wish them all the luck into the future. As the saying goes, they are the next millionaires.

An Cathaoirleach

Hopefully.

Senator Mike Kennelly

Best of luck.

An Cathaoirleach

Our next speaker is Deputy McGettigan.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

I thank the witnesses for coming in and talking to us. Looking at successful stories of apprenticeships, Jim Meade was an apprentice with Iarnród Éireann, worked his way up and ended up being the head of Iarnród Éireann, so I am looking at Ms Maguire. You never know; she could be back here answering questions about Dublin Bus at some stage. I can relate to Mr. O'Shaughnessy. I got as far as fourth year in secondary school. I do not know if it was because I asked too many questions or whatever, but it just was not for me. I ended up going straight into FÁS at 16 because I am good with my hands. I talk with my hands, as the witnesses will see. There was a sense of snobbery around that when people looked at me. One of my teachers actually reckoned I would not amount to anything. You go figure that because look where I am now. The whole snobbery around that needs to be taken away. If students were able to choose the colleges they go to, I think the system for apprenticeships would probably work out. I cannot see why that is not the case. It is college. I just do not get it. What do the witnesses think about having to know what career you want leaving school? Maybe you are too young to know what you want to do with your career at that stage. Maybe they could bring in school tester cases. There could be an open day of plumbers and electricians coming into the schools. Then students might have that moment when they think, "I want to do that." Do the witnesses think those kinds of things would help?

Mr. Richard McElwaine

In Northern Ireland they have a tech and they go maybe once or twice a week and get to try out electrical, plumbing and so on. Maybe that is a good thing to take into the South, that you would be able to say, "Maybe an apprenticeship is for me", instead of it being just about books.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

Do the witnesses think that having apprentices on minimum wage would help or that even a loan system, like a student loan system, for tools would help apprentices?

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes. Starting off, you do not know. Someone could be coming in from a minimum wage job but they are doing 40 hours a week so they are earning enough. Then they come in and they are on €220 or €250 a week. All of a sudden they have to spend - I do not know what an average toolbox would cost. I think it is €1,000 or €1,500 just for the basics of what you need in the electrical sector anyway. They have to pay that and then their wage is still going down and you do not know if they have rent or whatever to pay on top of that. It is a lot to be asking one person to do.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Duffy, you wanted to get in on the previous point.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes. On the previous point, I was 16 doing my leaving certificate, which is probably quite young. There was nothing in school about anything to do next, but I was lucky enough to attend the WorldSkills competition this year. Apprentices and kids were coming up and getting to see that. At one point, in a very positive way, they got to see even stonemasonry, which is a forgotten trade nowadays. It was incredible to see it in person. As regards even the electrical trade, there were some people there who were fantastic. The WorldSkills competition is a brilliant thing to highlight. It should be brought into schools more and really pushed there such that - not in a bad way - it is made mandatory. Let them see the other side of it. A lot of parents will push college. I still think there is a bit of that around, that a trade is not something to be achieved or that should be achieved. It is "Only do it if you cannot get to college". Sometimes even the Army is seen like that as well, which is a wrong statement. We are lucky enough that we had a lad working with us who did his apprenticeship through the Army. There are so many different options out there. I think that, especially in school, like the Deputy said, there should be an open day or something in every single school such that there is every availability as to what you can do, whether it is college, an apprenticeship, the Army or the Navy - whatever you might want to do - but that you have the option and can see it in person instead of just hearing about it from maybe a guidance counsellor.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

As to what the witnesses came here to tell us, I love the success stories because it is not all about issues and problems. In Mr. Lown's statement he brought forward solutions. All the witnesses have given us solutions. That is something we can work forward to because they are simple solutions, particularly when we talk about the lottery system. It just does not make sense, as was said, to send someone from Donegal down to Cork and then from Cork up to Donegal. If they were to stay at home or even local to their own area, it would alleviate the housing crisis, the transport issues we have and our carbon footprint. As regards the solution that was brought forward, we need to bring that forward not just for the witnesses but for everybody. We need apprentices. We need houses built. We need electricians and plumbers. We need the witnesses to stay here in the country to help our solutions so we need to look after them. I thank them again for coming in and for giving us not just their stories but solutions to work on.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I thank the witnesses for all their presentations, which are really useful. One thing that has featured quite heavily here is that people are rightly gobsmacked by the whole lack of location preference. The letter just arrives in the post and you are meant to travel around half the country. Obviously, it makes no sense, so I think it is likely that this committee will recommend that that changes. It makes no sense whatsoever from the witnesses' point of view. Do they have any insight into who it does make sense for or why this is the system? Is it just that they do not want to bother creating a bureaucracy kind of thing to deal with it or-----

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Supposedly, the reason, I was told when I asked, was that it is to do with where your employer is based and the ETB it is closest to. It is meant to factor in the preferences around that area. Again, like I said, the lads who work in Meath, who are registered in Meath, or the Meath ETB, are getting sent to Sligo. It does not make sense, so-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

And as it currently stands, they might find someone appropriate to swap with.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes, exactly, but you may-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

That then indicates that it is not-----

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Depending on when you get that letter out, you might have four weeks at a maximum to try to organise that. I got a cancellation letter when I went to phase 2. I did not even get the letter. I was just told by my employer, "You are going to phase 2 in two weeks", and I was lucky enough that it was in town.

Deputy Paul Murphy

But the fact that they allow swaps indicates that, in a way, it is just a more inefficient way of organising a CAO-type system whereby people put in their preferences and say they would prefer to go to a certain location and people at least try to accommodate that. It will not be possible to accommodate everybody, but at least that should be the starting point.

I have a question, or maybe a series of questions, about upfront costs. There have been a lot of references to the effect that if you complete your apprenticeship, you will earn loads of money. Obviously, in the current economic climate, people can do quite well, but I think it was said the upfront costs can be a big turnoff for people as this is not something they are able to do. Can we go through some of the costs people are facing while on quite low wages? Tools, obviously, depend on the trade. Some good employers, like Dublin Bus, are playing upfront, but for the witnesses or their friends, what kind of amounts of money are people looking at in terms of buying tools?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

For instance, when I laboured in Dublin I had a van. I had to change to a car because it did not make sense to go through the tolls in a van. You could be paying €40 a day from Dundalk to Dublin, especially if you have to cross over by the southside, so all of a sudden you are down money. That is an issue when you have to buy a car. Then, like the Deputy said, depending on your employer, for an electrical meter you could pay €200 or €300. If you are going in to test them, that would be later on, but some meters would cost €1,100 or €1,200. Then, with our tools, everything has to be insulated. For a pair of snips you are talking a minimum of €40 or €50.

A screwdriver set could cost €100. Snickers PPE is normally €120. We then have to buy padding, jackets, hard hats. Boots cost another €100. It racks up very quickly.

Deputy Paul Murphy

It quickly reaches €1,000 and that is not crazy.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

That is not tools. That is a pair of snips, a meter and screwdrivers. It is possible to get kits. Certain websites offer starter bundles which are very basic but they cost about €1,500. It is that kind of money. That money is required upfront because an employer is expecting an apprentice to come in and maybe not strip down a wall of electrics, but they will be turning around asking, "Where are your screwdrivers? Where is your basic PPE?"

Deputy Paul Murphy

They cannot do this without it. It is not some optional extra. For those on the first-year electrician rate of slightly over €7 an hour, it takes something like 200 hours of work to get the wages to pay for what they need to be able to start work in the first place. That is obviously big.

The thing that struck me was the €70 a week for lodging support. Even the caravan that was spoken about was €200 a week. The average rent in the country is €477 per week. That is a crazily low amount of money particularly when married with the fact that an apprentice may effectively have to pay two rents because they can be somewhere and then somewhere else. Presumably that is also a big off-putting element. An amount of €70 is just completely inadequate.

Coming back to the question of wages, is everybody in their first year effectively paid less than the minimum wage? All the employers will do that.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

That is the union rate. Even the second-year rate is less than the minimum wage.

Deputy Paul Murphy

And then they finally go above it.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

It goes 40%, 50%, 60% and then-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

Of the union rate.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

It is factored in that they are not fully qualified.

Deputy Paul Murphy

It would be a very simple thing to change in law, to get rid of that exemption for apprentices and stipulate that nobody should be working for less than the minimum wage. We have introduced a Bill to deal with the pay for the under-20s. We will introduce separate legislation to get rid of it for apprentices. Would that make a difference? The Government is spending something like €500,000 on an advertising campaign in Australia to ask people to come back to build in Ireland. That is grand, but in a way would it be better to spend some of that money or some additional money on giving people decent grants, enabling them to pay for accommodation and getting rid of their fees? People should at least be paid the minimum wage when they are working.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

Obviously, minimum wage would make a big difference to people, especially for an older apprentice who is not 16, 17 or 18. We still have bills to pay and a life to run. Minimum wage would make a big difference, in my opinion.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

A 16-, 17- or 18-year-old coming out of school knows no different. They are more than likely living at home and they are finally making money. At 26 going to do it, I had a job and good money and now I am back down to the point where I do not think the USC applies. It is a bit of a scare. It would be nice. Obviously, one person cannot get paid more than the other because of age, but something should be done to find a middle ground anyway - definitely something along those lines.

An Cathaoirleach

We now come to non-members starting with Deputy Cummins.

Deputy Jen Cummins

It is great that the witnesses are here. Well done to all of them. As Mr. McAuley is from my constituency, he is particularly welcome. I am really struck by all the different phases and it sounds very complicated. For those young people who want to do an apprenticeship, I am hearing that there is very little guidance in school as to how to get there, how to apply and how it actually works. Do they pay fees or not pay fees? Do they get paid wages or not? There are questions like that. We have about five and a half minutes in this slot. Could somebody explain to people who are thinking of applying for apprenticeship? The CAO applications will open up soon, but apprenticeships are not on that, or are they? How would somebody apply for an apprenticeship? So that people can have a practical understanding of that process, how did any of the witnesses apply? I know many young people who do not want to go to college. They want to do something practical rather than sit in a college lecture hall. We need to be more practical in getting more people to do that. As many of the witnesses have said, they went the other route and it was not for them but they did not know there was a different option because nobody told them. Would it be possible for somebody to explain to me the process for applying?

Mr. Stephen Lown

My experience was of applying through the company for an apprenticeship. If the company is SOLAS registered, that is well and good. If it is not, they go and set up their own company. The person then goes through the medical, interviews and stuff. If they get the job, they start phase 1. After six months, they reach phase 2, which involves attending an ETB training centre for six months.

Deputy Jen Cummins

They do not go to the job then; they go to the ETB and-----

Mr. Stephen Lown

The person is on the job for six months beforehand.

Deputy Jen Cummins

They do six months on the job and then six months in the ETB, is that it?

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes, six months for both. The apprentice is then back out on the job and then they are into a college for phase 4 for 12 weeks. They then go back out on the job. Phase 6 is the final phase in college and takes about 12 weeks as well. They finish their time in phase 7 and they are qualified once they get the papers.

Deputy Jen Cummins

So, a person has to basically know a company first of all to apply to. Is there a central place where people can go? If I want to do an apprenticeship, how do I find that out? Where can young people find that out? With the CAO they can look and it tells them what courses there are. Is there something like that for apprentices?

Mr. Stephen Lown

There is an Apprenticeship Ireland website, which lists every single apprenticeship that is available in Ireland. When looking for a job, there are websites like indeed.com, which usually lists a good few jobs that come up as apprenticeships.

Deputy Jen Cummins

When apprentices are on the job, they are getting paid at different levels depending on the stage. Do they have to pay college or ETB fees, or whatever? How much are they? Does it depend on the course?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

I do not know if it depends on the course. I think it applies across the board. I could be wrong. Basically, we do not pay any fees. All we had to pay for was our regulations book and we earn an income on that. In phase 4 and phase 6 for me, it was €666.

Deputy Jen Cummins

For 12 weeks that is a lot of money.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

It was €1,000 and then it was reduced. I was lucky enough when I got in. I do not know if it has gone up since. I got the two reducing rates. For employers like my own, if I needed to, they would pay for it and then I would get it back. There is some to'ing and fro'ing. If an apprentice approaches the employer, they might do something. Some bigger companies let apprentices do a kind of saving scheme that builds up to allow them to pay it off when they have to.

Deputy Jen Cummins

Did anybody else have a different experience with how they applied? How did it go with Dublin Bus? How did Mr. McAuley apply?

Mr. Darragh McAuley

It advertised on social media, on websites and on the side of buses. For that company, it is advertised everywhere. The application process is outlined on the website and it is easy enough. It tells the person what to do and what to put in and gives guidance through the process. It was easy enough. For other companies, people have to ring up the company and may be told, "I don't know if we're taking on apprentices at the moment so I'll find out." Then they ring back and might say, "You can start next week if you want to do an apprenticeship." Dublin Bus registers apprentices straight away but other companies take their time. They might not have the information; I would not know. For us it is handy enough. We had somebody who did all that for us. I know with other companies the apprentices do everything. They are only just out of school and they would not know all the information.

Deputy Jen Cummins

Is an apprentice in the ETB or the college still getting paid the wages they were when they were working or does that stop for that period?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

You get a set rate. Normally it is slightly less than what you would earn in a flat week.

Deputy Jen Cummins

What is the best thing about being in an apprenticeship? How would the witnesses sell it to someone?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

It would be the practical element for me.

Mr. Darragh McAuley

What you are actually learning is what you are going to be doing on the job outside college. You know what you are doing because you are doing it day in, day out. You are shadowing a person who has done the exact same thing as you are doing in the apprenticeship, and then in college, you are doing practical and theory, so they are teaching you things that you have already done or are going to be doing. Once you are finished, you are fully qualified and have all the information that you need. It is a good thing to do an apprenticeship. I know we are talking about all the bad things at the moment, but it is good to do an apprenticeship.

Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy

You really get along well with the lecturers too. You share an experience with each other. You both go through the same things and it is good craic the whole time, with someone who does the same things you do.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Tá fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir, go háirithe iad siúd ó Dhún Dealgan. It is great to have the witnesses here, particularly those who are training in DKIT. I want to ask a question about employers and the way the craft apprenticeship is set up. We can compare it with the northern one, where sometimes you are only away for a day and then you are back, as opposed to being sequestered away for a number of weeks. Have the witnesses ever had a conversation with any of their employers about it? Would they much prefer that this system was looked at or what is the witnesses' consideration?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

I do not know if it is coming in. I know one of the first-years who is with us at the moment has a massive book, much like the northern ones, where they have to fill out all their experience of climbing the ladder and so on. They have to do a full write-up of their phase 1, which was not there when I was there. I am kind of glad it was not, to be honest. I can see that side of it. I do not know if this is a new thing or not.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I am wondering about the way it is set up. The employer takes you on and then you are gone. The idea of the Northern system is that you would only be away for a day or a week as opposed to a long period.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

I do not know, because an employer can factor it in if you are gone for a set period of time, and the employer can defer you up to three times. For instance, if it came up and there was just too much work going, your boss can tell you that, unfortunately, you are not going this round, even if you get the letter. That might be able to happen three times and then they have to let you go. Employers have that opportunity. If the work is on, they do not have to send you. I do not know if you would actually learn as much in one day a week as you do in college.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Mr. Duffy is happy enough with the set-up at the minute.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That would be the only big issue. I heard a number of the witnesses speak previously about the issues of cost. Obviously, we need to do whatever we can to address that because we have all got that from people in the constituency. Generally it is parents giving out about the cost. We obviously do not have enough people who are doing the work. Does anyone else have a view on that?

Mr. Darragh McAuley

For the bigger companies, it is easier to send off an apprentice for six to eight months, but the smaller companies keep deferring you because you are the only apprentice there. We are lucky enough that there are loads of us in the garage so it is not relying on one apprentice at times. It is easier for the likes of Dublin Bus, Irish Rail or Bus Éireann to send you off straight away, but the smaller companies or family-run businesses would not send you. They would rather you do one day a week.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

So that can disadvantage apprentices?

Mr. Darragh McAuley

It depends on the company, but they would rather you do one day a week. In my experience, I would prefer the six months away, because you are in that environment, willing to learn, instead of going back to work. You might miss a day, being called back into work, if you are doing one day a week.

Mr. Cian O'Shaughnessy

In our company, two of us are doing the apprenticeship, and we are right after each other. Our company was basically down a man for a full year, because Cal was gone for six months, he came back, I went for six months, and then he was gone for three months, came back, and then I was gone for three months, so we were nearly constantly down a man. Our company never stopped us. It always let us go to college. I would say it would prefer one day a week, because you have your man there the whole time, and then you have holidays to factor in with all the other people too.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is it. It is about designing something that works for both the employer and apprentice. I could probably ask a smart-arsed question and ask if the witnesses if they ever saw an exam paper beforehand, but that would probably be wrong at this point in time. Obviously, there is a serious issue with certification across the board. Would the witnesses have been aware of that sort of issue going on?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

When I was in college, we did not hear of people buying them. There are previous exam papers floating around, but that is no matter what it is. If you go to third level education, normally you have the whole year. Personally, I think past exam papers should be readily available, though obviously the questions should be changed. If you are 19 years of age and now you are in phase 4, which is a massive step up from phase 2, you know what the structure of an exam looks like, as opposed to the questions that are on it. That on its own is like a mock. Maybe mocks should be available. I have never heard of paying for it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is good. The fact that we have certification that is working needs to be looked at in general outside of that issue. Sometimes that is more easily done as an outside body. Were any of the witnesses backlogged with the backlogs that existed across Covid and whatever? How long did that hold them up?

Mr. Darragh McAuley

I am going into my fourth year now. I have only done three phases out of seven. There is a huge backlog for mechanics that I know of. I have been held back a long time because of Covid and the lack of instructors and colleges.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

There are absolutely not enough mechanics.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

I was the opposite. A lad was working with us for five and a half years before he was qualified, whereas I got in in under the four years. I was lucky enough to get into phase 2 after a year and a half, whereas now in LMETB in Dundalk, there is now a nine-month wait for electrical, so the backlog has dramatically gone down for electrical.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

There was obviously an issue with first years because there was a delay with taking people in, with the financing issue that existed with SOLAS. These are things that need to be addressed. I assume this committee will make sure it holds the Government's feet to the fire.

Senator Dee Ryan

I thank everyone for their contributions. I feel, because my background is that I was self-employed and obviously I am a Government representative, that I need to give some balance to some comments that were made. We are putting more money than ever into apprenticeships and rolling out more than ever. We see the value and want to do more. Some €400 million will be invested in it by the end of next year. That is more than double what it was in 2020. I give that assurance. We hugely value the witnesses' skill set and investment in their sector. I was formerly self-employed and an SME business owner, a sector that is the lifeblood of this country. More people are employed in small and medium enterprises and by family-run businesses than any other sector. They all have their own little quirks, personalities and ways. The Government, through local enterprise offices, LEOs, and other mechanisms, is trying to professionalise and support entrepreneurs who start their own businesses insofar as possible to ensure that employees and people working with them have the right supports and opportunities to develop their own career paths.

Some of the witnesses, in time, may come to experience this if they decide to start their own businesses and step into a different phase in their careers. It is critical that apprentices come through, but there is a cost to the business in bringing an apprentice through. It is earn and learn. If we were to compare it directly with first years going into university, they are in full-time education, and they do not have the opportunity to earn unless they are doing part-time work in the evenings. I heard passive mention of nixers. There is nothing wrong with that. I am also glad to hear that VAT invoices were referenced in that comment.

It is apples and oranges. It is a different thing. From an employer’s perspective, when an employer brings someone in and helps them to learn, they spend significant time doing that which is time they could have spent doing the job themselves and earning the money. I am not suggesting at all that the work the witnesses do is not hugely valuable but from an employer's perspective, there is an investment by the employer in time and support. Having said that, we absolutely would like to see apprentices' earnings being brought up to minimum wage, if and when that is possible, with the economy allowing. I just wanted to give that balance to some of the comments. I say again how much I enjoyed the witnesses’ contributions today. I was surprised nobody said that the best thing about being an apprentice was the stickers.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Ó Súilleabháin.

Deputy Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. Ireland, as we said, has an abundance of highfalutin university degrees and experts in artificial intelligence. What we need now is more common sense, which our witnesses have all spoken today. We need great people like them who can use a hammer and screwdriver and lift and lay a brick and build a house. These are practical, common-sense skills that we need. Hopefully, we can work on some of the suggestions the witnesses have given at this committee. Keep up the good work.

Deputy John Connolly

To address Senator Ryan's point, one of our concerns is there is a perception that apprenticeships are at risk of exploitation, and that it is a costly endeavour and costly path for the student to go down. That might be something that prohibits people from going into apprenticeships. Mr. Lown acknowledged in his contribution that he has not come across that. He said he has heard of other people in the apprenticeship programme who did not get the support of their employers around the purchase of tools, etc., but, on a personal basis, his own relationship with his employer has been good.

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes.

Deputy John Connolly

I detect that from Mr. Duffy as well.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

Yes. I never had any issue.

Deputy John Connolly

I do not know if anybody else wants to comment. I hope that for a statutory body it is also the case. Does Ms Maguire pay for her own tools?

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

No.

Deputy John Connolly

It would be worthwhile for us to do a greater piece of work around that. It is important that we do not let a perception to go out that there is widespread exploitation and that the cost of engaging in it is something that would prohibit people from going into it. The experience I am picking up from our witnesses is that it is positive and that is not the case.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

We are lucky enough that while we do pay for own tools, we have a good relationship with the employer. He has a set number of tools as well, such as drills and stuff like that and we can use them for different projects if needs be until we get our own. It works hand in hand. Again, I never had any issue.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

Normally an apprentice is only supplied with the major tools that they would not be buying out of their own pocket - for example, wheel guns. Where are you going to put that in your toolbox?

Deputy John Connolly

Ms Maguire would have to show me one.

Ms Jamie Lee Maguire

We are fortunate enough to be supplied with that. It is a great help that we do not have to pay for our actual tools. If an apprentice wants to buy extra for themselves, that is their own doing but we are supplied with everything we need.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy McGettigan.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

In terms of the rise in the amount of money going in, I hope that is happening because there is a rise in the number of apprenticeships, so that would have to happen anyway. As we can see with the issues, there is not enough going in. In terms of the delays, are our witnesses still on the job on lower than minimum wage during those delays?

Mr. Darragh McAuley

No. Thankfully, with Dublin Bus, we are paid per year we are in the company but there are some companies that pay per phase. Every year you are in the company, you get the money you are entitled to. Thankfully, that is the case for us.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

Would anyone else like to answer?

Mr. Patrick Duffy

We are paid by the year, at the union rate, which is perfect. There are cases where people do not get paid that until they pass their phases. In theory, a person could be a fourth-year apprentice who has not sat phase two, and is still on the first rate.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

That person would still be paid way below minimum wage in phase four. Okay.

Senator Mike Kennelly

Essentially, what we all want to do is protect the apprentice. What I am getting is that employers differ, big or small. Again, it comes down to protecting the apprentice. Is there anything else the witnesses think the Government can do? If there is so much difference between what employers are giving their employees in relation to tools, etc., can we set a kind of precedent across the board in order that apprentices do not have to go with the begging bowl to any employer? An employer up the street could be offering more but he did not get the opportunity to meet the apprentice. Is there anything we can do to have a level playing pitch for every apprentice, so that we know they are at least protected? We got conflicting evidence today showing some are better than the others.

Mr. Stephen Lown

There are big companies that have hundreds of apprentices and then there is a local fella who has two. Things differ between who an employer is, which is a bit unfair in the sense that the bigger the company you go with, sometimes the more stuff you can get compared to the smaller fella.

Senator Mike Kennelly

If an apprentice does not get on with the bigger company, they are-----

Mr. Stephen Lown

Yes. That is just the way it is for apprentices.

Mr. Patrick Duffy

I reiterate that. A person can go with a massive company and get everything given to them but there are some companies, especially in the electrical trade, where they will pull cables for four years. If they are lucky, they might terminate one cable. Alternatively, they can work with a smaller company and be busier than the other apprentice. It varies dramatically. I do not think there is one thing that would level the playing field. The union is free for an apprentice but, again, with some employers, that does not matter to them. It all depends. It is circumstantial. It has nothing to do with a level playing field, unfortunately. It is where one applies to. The whole idea is that an apprentice can swap their employer during their apprenticeship. People need to know that is available. We always see that second-, third- and fourth-year electrical apprentices are needed. The hassle is getting a first year. No one wants to take a risk on a first year, and that is the problem.

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for attending. It has been a really interesting conversation between all of the witnesses. It is always great to have more Louth accents in the room. It gives a sense of home. It is great to see such talented, ambitious and determined young people coming in, giving their evidence to us and articulating their views so clearly on what they want for the people coming behind them and to make things better for themselves into the future. It is very clear our witnesses are very ambitious, highly-trained and driven. I thank them for their honesty as they answered all our questions.

We have very clearly seen from all of their contributions the varying degrees of the pressure points and the positives. Those would be the cost of those tools at the stages, as Mr. Lown very articulately outlined, in his opening statement, and backed up by everyone else. There was the abolition of fees, location preferences, the backlogs and the financial supports, all of those things that we are hearing from people we know in our own constituencies. We have been hearing it from different parts of the apprenticeship system and it is fantastic. It is very clear for us, as we compile a report and put forward our recommendations to support the witnesses and the people who come behind them, that we make sure we are asking for the right things. We have had an awful lot of stakeholders in before us on this issue, so it was really great to have six such fantastic apprentices come in and speak to us. Nothing beats the horse’s mouth when it comes to these sorts of things. I thank them very much for that. For DkIT and Louth, it is great to have the witnesses and that institution should be very proud of them.

We will suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to depart before going into private session when we will deal with our housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 2.10 p.m. and resumed in private session at 2.14 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.29 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 November 2025.

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