Joint Committee on Gender Equality debate -
Thursday, 28 Apr 2022

Recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I want to begin by apologising for keeping the Minister waiting. A combination of factors meant we had difficulty achieving a quorum on time this morning.

We have received apologies from a number of colleagues, including Deputies Niamh Smyth and Jennifer Carroll MacNeill and Senators Fintan Warfield, Alice Mary Higgins and Regina Doherty.

Before we begin, members have the option of being physically present or may join via Microsoft Teams from their Leinster House offices, but may not participate in the meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. If they are joining on Teams, they should please mute microphones and use the raise hand function to indicate. To limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, the Houses of the Oireachtas Service encourages all members, visitors and witnesses to continue to wear face masks when moving around the campus or in close proximity and to adhere to public health advice.

Today's meeting is an engagement with the Minister for Justice, Deputy Helen McEntee, to discuss the recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality related to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV. I sincerely welcome the Minister. She is participating via Teams from her Leinster House office, where she is accompanied by Mr. Ben Ryan, assistant secretary in the Department of Justice. We are grateful to them for their engagement on this important module and this important part of our work.

I will read the note on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee but if directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to particular matter, and they continue to do so, witnesses are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of the evidence. They are directed that only evidence that is connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them identifiable.

I now call the Minister to make her opening statement. We are delighted to have her here with us. We have already had a number of hearings on the recommendations of the citizens’ assembly. We see our role as a committee to prepare an action plan for the implementation of those recommendations. We are grateful to the Minister for her engagement with us.

Minister for Justice (Deputy Helen McEntee)

I thank the Chair and committee for giving me opportunity to join them this morning to discuss the recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly, in particular, regarding domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I thank them for their support and commitment on this issue. I want to take this opportunity to thank the chairperson, Dr. Catherine Day, and other members of the assembly for their dedication to, and hard work on, this topic. I welcome the Citizens' Assembly's examination of these critical areas of life and policy. As the committee members will be aware, this is an area of work on which I, as well as my colleagues in government, have identified as a priority. We welcome the committee’s interest in advancing these recommendations. It should be underlined that the majority of the recommendations are very much aligned to work that is being carried out across Departments and in particular, by my own Department. Any recommendations that are not already captured by our ongoing work will, of course, be considered on their own merits.

Some of the work aligned to the recommendations made by the assembly includes the audit of how responsibility for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is segmented across different Government agencies, which was published in July of last year. As well as this, there is the development of the third national strategy to address domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, which I will submit to Government in the coming weeks. There is also the review of the provision of accommodation for victims of domestic violence, which was undertaken by Tusla and was published in February. It took into consideration both the needs of victims and the types of accommodation that is required.

In addition, as part of the implementation of Supporting a Victim’s Journey, my plan to help victims and vulnerable witnesses in sexual violence, we worked with our NGO partners and others to map the journey faced by individual victims to identify issues and support needs not met. Following this, my Department conducted a review of the grant schemes application to identify and address any gaps in services. On the foot of the outcome of this work, I provided additional funding of €445,000 to organisations in 2021 to fill the gaps that were identified. The mapping exercise identified situations in which there are parallel civil and criminal proceedings, and possibly child protection proceedings, as having the potential to further traumatise victims and to give opportunities for perpetrators to seek to exercise coercive control. My Department is working with key NGOs to identify practical solutions based on international best practice to address these issues.

Work is under way to develop specific training for all of the key personnel, including those in the legal profession, with whom a victim may come into contact during their journey throughout the criminal justice system. The introduction of preliminary trial hearings will reduce delay and allow for sensitive legal issues to be dealt with before the trial starts. In March, my Department held its inaugural victims’ forum for State, social and community groups. Findings from these forums will assist my Department, and indeed other Departments, in developing further supports for victims.

Improving the system for victims, particularly for vulnerable victims, is a key priority for me and for my Department. As part of the reforms being introduced under Supporting a Victim’s Journey, the victim will be entitled to their own dedicated legal advice and support throughout the process. The major reforms we are driving will collectively ensure we have a criminal justice system that places victims at its centre and that removes the fear many victims have in coming forward to report what happened to them. This should be a system that supports, informs and empowers vulnerable victims at every point. I appreciate that that is not the case at the moment. That is what we are striving to achieve.

I am also currently leading work on a new whole-of-government strategy to combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, which will further advance the recommendations made by the assembly. This new plan will have a particular focus on prevention, as well as on ensuring that victims are better supported. It will set an overall goal of zero tolerance in our society for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.

A number of the objectives in the new national strategy are in line with the assembly's recommendations. The first of these is to ensure the availability of accessible, quality specialist and community-based domestic, sexual and gender-based violence services across the State, so that all people who experience domestic, sexual or gender-based violence have access to integrated services, no matter where they live. Another objective is to ensure a victim and survivor-centred wraparound service through the creation of a clear, integrated local pathway. This builds on the mapping of the victim and survivor journey work we have done. It is for adults and for children, both female and male, victims and survivors to access the domestic violence and sexual violence information services and various different supports. The strategy has been developed in partnership with the sector to ensure it is targeted, comprehensive and effective in achieving all of the goals that we set.

I am finalising the strategy for submission to Government in light of the public and sectoral consultations that formed part its development. I am also working on finalising an accompanying action plan for the rest of this year and next year, which will set out how each of the arms and aims of the strategy will be achieved, which Departments and agencies are responsible for them and the timeframe for delivery, so that it is targeted, ambitious and deliverable. I intend to bring both the finalised strategy and the action plan to Government in the coming weeks.

Furthermore, it is my goal that everyone who needs a refuge space will get one. I am deeply committed to working with partners in the sector and with Government colleagues to achieve that. I acknowledge that this is also a key recommendation.

In February, the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O’Gorman, and I published the review by Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, of accommodation for victims of domestic violence. The review highlights gaps in geographical coverage and inadequate provisions for safe accommodation. It provides a list of priority areas where additional services would address the most immediate need. I fully acknowledge the need to dramatically increase the provision of refuges across the country. Key to this will be ensuring that organisations can access the funding that they need. To this end, I have established a high-level interdepartmental group to review the current system for the provision of refuge space and accommodation and to identify changes that can be made to deliver additional spaces as effectively and as quickly as possible. The timelines for delivery of refuge places, as well as further targets for national and nationwide delivery of refuge accommodation, will be outlined in the third national strategy. Further detail will be contained in the accompanying action plan.

Committee members may also be aware that the Government will, for the first time, establish in law a national agency whose task will be responsibility for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. The agency will be responsible for overseeing all of the actions set out in the third national strategy for delivering domestic violence services.

It will bring together the expertise that exists within my Department and Tusla and will report to me and to any other subsequent Minister for Justice. Bringing the responsibility for policy and service delivery together under one Ministry, establishing the agency in law, and introducing oversight from the Department of the Taoiseach demonstrate our recognition of the need to have a dedicated and expert-focused approach to this work. It demonstrates our commitment to work together to reach our goal of zero tolerance and to ensure the coherent delivery of the best possible DSGBV services and supports throughout the country.

I want to emphasise that I am committed to the challenge of preventing and responding to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I acknowledge that while we have achieved a lot in this area, much work still needs to be done. Zero tolerance of all forms of DSGBV is an ambitious but necessary goal and by continuing to work together I am confident we can achieve that. I very much look forward to continuing to work with the committee to progress the recommendations of the assembly. I again thank the members for having me before the committee this morning.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for that very clear opening statement. I acknowledge her immense personal commitment to addressing this issue and to moving forward with the Supporting A Victim's Journey plan. That was acknowledged by the NGOs that appeared before us on this module as well in previous weeks. I will ask members to engage in questions and answers.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Minister for her time this morning. It is very much appreciated. I hope she has had an opportunity to follow some of the work this committee has been doing in recent months. The committee has a short timeframe and we are very much focused on ensuring that what came out of the citizens' assembly is translated into actions for citizens.

I commend the Minister's statement, in particular the commitment to recognise and acknowledge those historic and current gaps in supports and services for survivors of DSGBV. That is critical. It is very important that she had it in her opening statement and I recognise that. I want to focus on a couple of different areas of the third strategy. Delivery of any plan is contingent on effective implementation, which is also then reliant on adequate budget allocations from the Government. Could the Minister confirm if the action plan to follow the publication of the third strategy will be published before the summer recess? Will she and her Department be the accountable body in respect of the implementation of the action plan? I ask this in light of the Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality, which was to have oversight of DSGBV; however, it seems to meet quite sporadically, perhaps twice in 2020 and once in 2021. I recognise the role Covid in that scenario, but the committee has met only once so far this year. Is that likely to change with the new responsibility of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence?

How will regular reporting on the performance be measured? Has the Minister given consideration to publishing a quarterly or biannual performance indicator, similar to what the Garda does in its monthly report to the Policing Authority? Will she make it available? This is most important. Publicly available information on performance indicators is a key tool to demonstrate not just the commitment but delivery, transparency and accountability. It could play a very positive role when it comes to our efforts to halt DSGBV. Significant commitments have been made around the fourth pillar and I do not think any of us would be straying from the truth if we say there has never really been effective policy co-ordination and implementation at national and local level. I understand this is a big ask, but reporting could go some way to addressing concerns.

The Minister also acknowledged in her opening statement that there is a requirement for significant current and capital expenditure. The current annual budget allocated to DSGBV is quite small. Figures provided by Departments in January of this year put the figure in or around €40 million. That is quite a low level of funding, given the task in hand. Has the Department costed in full the third strategy and will a budget for its implementation be sought by the Minister when the strategy is submitted to the Cabinet? She mentioned that would happen in the coming weeks. It is key for survivors and advocates that Government commitments are backed up with clear budget lines and costing, not just on an annual basis but for the lifetime of the plan.

I wish to touch briefly on refuges and the services provided. This is an anomaly that has never sat easy with me or most of the service providers with whom I engage on a regular basis. I refer to the fact that there is no dedicated capital expenditure budget in any Department to provide safe accommodation for survivors of domestic violence, DV. We understand that the capital funding for approved housing bodies and Clúid services to provide refuge accommodation is provided by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, but the current position is that the primary responsibility for the provision of refuge places is with Tusla. The primary purpose of the homeless current expenditure is for those who cannot provide accommodation from their own means, not specifically for victims of domestic and gender-based violence. We recognise that capital assistance scheme, CAS, funding is available to approved housing bodies, but there seems to be a lack of any proactive measures from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to deliver accommodation specifically for victims of domestic and gender-based violence.

The Minister acknowledged that we do not meet our obligations under the Istanbul Convention to provide adequate accommodation and wrap-around supports. Tusla provides just one third of the refuge spaces that we are obliged to have under the convention. Nine counties have no DV refuge places at all. My county of Longford has no DV accommodation provider. The Minister mentioned the report by her and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We need to substantially increase the number of refuge places given the current needs, projected needs and international obligations. Who is responsible for the delivery of the 60 units? There is a growing concern that this identified immediate need will not be progressed until the DSGBV State agency is established. That would be wholly unacceptable given that it has been established as a current need. Has the budget been secured for the 60 additional units? What is the timeframe for delivery of them and will they include the wrap-around supports and services?

In terms of the service providers on the ground currently, it appears there is an over-reliance on communities and people's generosity in terms of fundraising to meet the resource needs of applying to multiple State agencies for different streams of funding. That was very much exposed during Covid. Because there is no multi-annual funding in place, it makes planning for these services incredibly difficult. We really lag behind international norms on this issue. I fail to see how a proper service level agreement that is fit for purpose could not include multi-annual funding. What progress has been made to rectify this? Will funding for operational costs be streamlined so that these services are not applying to multiple Departments for multiple sources of funding?

We recently heard from AkiDwA, which gave rather compelling evidence on the issues that face migrant women who experience domestic violence and abuse. One of the issues they raised passionately is the limited value of allowing a woman to remain in Ireland on a stamp 3 visa, where she is unable to financially support herself or her children. Why is the provision to obtain a stamp 4 visa, with permission to work, through ministerial consent, not included in the INIS domestic violence guidelines? We need to have very clear pathways for protection, support and care for these migrant women who are reliant on our immigration system. That seems to be lacking at the moment. Does the Minister believe the third strategy adequately provides and protects migrant women and immigrant victims of DSGBV?

Does the third strategy include a national action plan to address female genital mutilation, FGM, in Ireland? If not, why not?

Chairman

There is a quite a lot of stuff there. The Minister might take as long as she likes in responding to those because there is a great deal of substance and the Deputy touched on quite a number of matters that were raised with us in previous hearings.

Deputy Helen McEntee

If I skip over any of the issues, the Chairman might remind me but I think I have made a note of most of what the Deputy mentioned. This will absolutely be published before the summer recess. I appreciate the intention was to publish it this month but we want to ensure we get a number of elements right. The change for the provision of services from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to my Department has meant we have had a particular focus on that work and ensuring there is enough done on the development of new refuge accommodation for inclusion in the strategy. It is a really important element of the strategy.

I also took a decision to have a final consultation, knowing it would probably delay the publication of the strategy. This was important as we have consulted with people, organisations and representative groups. We have worked side by side with them for the past year and half. That has slightly delayed things but I can confirm that it will be published before the summer recess. It will be published in a matter of weeks.

There are a number of layers in the structures we have in place with respect to accountability. The Deputy mentioned the Cabinet committee on social affairs. Currently, the Department of Justice - that is me and my team - will oversee the implementation of the strategy but it is a whole-of-government strategy. The agency working with the Department will oversee the implementation when it is set up. The Cabinet committee on social affairs will meet on a regular basis but we do not have to tie down particular dates. It will be meeting more regularly than it does now. There is a separate structure involving the Secretaries General from the Department of the Taoiseach and my Department, who will meet to ensure the information needed for the Cabinet committee can be provided and there is time for the Departments to be engaged. There are quite a number of sides involved but the day-to-day implementation will be through the Department and agency.

There will be continuous work to develop the agency and measures will be put in place to ensure continuous engagement with front-line workers and the community and relevant sectors. We are already engaging with them and we are looking to identify the best way to establish the agency within the critical path was set out by the various different players and things that need to happen over the next 18 months. Everything will be done in consultation and that will continue when the strategy is launched. If something is not happening or working, we will get the feedback from the sector and those working on the ground. That will be very helpful. This is the first time we have co-designed our strategy with the sector and I hope that process has been very beneficial for both sides.

On reporting, the intention is to report on a half-year basis. We need to allow time for work to progress and things to happen. As there is a level of engagement and structure built into the agency, there will always be that engagement with the sector and those working on the ground. We will set out clearly the budget not just for this and next year but for the lifetime of the strategy. That will include not only my Department but other Departments and their actions. Quite a number of actions will not require any additional funding within a budget but there will clearly be funding required that would be new money. Of course, with regard to current spending for the delivery of services, funding will increase, and there will be capital spending on refuges and accommodation. We have already set out figures as to how much it will cost to deliver in the short, medium and long term throughout the strategy.

With regard to refuges, accommodation and related services, the intention is there will be wrap-around support for services connected with refuge and accommodation. I appreciate that to date there has not been per se, a dedicated DSGBV capital fund and instead it has come through the capital assistance programme. That means it is very much a bottom-up approach in that agencies, individuals, community groups and local authorities must go to the scheme and Tusla, and it is quite a difficult and lengthy process. If there is no agency on the ground or particular group that is willing to drive the process, or if there are just other challenges preventing it from happening, this can be a very difficult process. The interdepartmental group I mentioned has been established, and it comprises representatives of my Department and the Departments of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Public Expenditure and Reform, as well as Tusla. We are currently looking at the structure and how it can improved so it is not just a bottom-up approach. There must be potential, if the State must intervene, for there to be a more proactive approach in that regard.

We are already engaging with various different refuges on the ground working on new projects. We are getting information from them on what is working and not, and we are sharing best practice. That will help us deliver best practice in capital delivery. It is the same as when we build schools, we have a template and we know what works or is best practice. We want something similar here so that every refuge is not just about physical beds and the accommodation that people need but the wrap-around supports, services and environment that must come with that. We are looking beyond that in terms of other supports people might need separate to the refuge. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage has said publicly that the capital assistance scheme and his Department will support funding to develop those other ancillary supports and not just the accommodation piece.

I am very conscious there are nine counties where there are no refuges. I was in the Deputy's county recently and met representatives of the local women's network. I know there is fantastic work happening on the ground and we must harness those efforts in working with organisations to see how we can deliver new accommodation as quickly as possible.

On the question of who is responsible, we are working with Tusla and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to sign off on a memorandum of understanding, MOU. Once that is signed, my Department and I as the Minister will be responsible for the delivery of services working directly with Tusla. That means there will be no gap. Currently the work is happening, as it normally does, between Tusla and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Once the MOU is signed, the responsibility will transfer to my Department. Once the agency is established, that will take over in that regard. I assure people there will be no gap.

There was a question on timelines and this takes in the short, medium and long term. People might see a couple of months as the short term but irrespective of how much we can tidy the process, shorten it and improve it, it takes time to develop and build any time of accommodation and ensure services and supports are correct and fit or appropriate for what we need. In the short term we will be able to set ourselves target over the next two years for what we will deliver in the lifetime of the strategy, which is five years. The longer-term plan is for ten years. That is the way it has been set out the Tusla accommodation review to ensure we can meet our Istanbul Convention requirements.

We agree that funding must be increased for service providers and that is what we are working on. That is to ensure we are not just getting increased funding every year to match the increase in accommodation but that we are looking at increasing support for those people already there and the work already happening to allow those services to expand. In many counties where we have accommodation, it must expand as well. It is not just about new accommodation but expanding the services that are there, which will require additional current funding. We are looking at all those figures, which will be set out in the strategy when it is launched.

On the question of migrant women, there is a particular focus on ensuring that those who are most vulnerable have access to supports and information and they are supported in the best way possible. That is why we have engaged with many of the organisations and they have been key in providing the type of information we need to ensure this strategy is adequate and it protects immigrant and migrant women. That includes looking at our immigration system and ensuring that information is provided in the right language. It means working with the organisations that are closest to those communities.

On the question of female genital mutilation, one of the requests was that this would allow anybody to seek international protection. It already falls under "gender" as a reason to be able to seek international protection.

That is a UN term that captures quite a number of different things. Certainly, if somebody has been a victim of FGM, she is currently legally entitled to seek international protection. There will be further work done, through the Department of Health, on the strategy on this particular issue as well. I think that I have touched on most issues but I am happy to come back in if I missed something.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Minister for her response, which is much appreciated. Will the memorandum of understanding she mentioned apply to the provision of the urgently needed 60 new additional units, as identified in the report done by the Ministers for Justice and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth? Has a budget been secured for the units? I have no issue with what the Minister said about the timeframe.

She is correct that the provision of refuges or places in communities is driven by groups on the ground. That is something we have historically seen develop without a grand plan being put in place. A group formed, recognised a need and went through the process of ensuring there was safe accommodation in their community. The Minister was also correct that there needs to be more Government involvement in that because while a group may have the capability and skills to apply for these services and these places, that in no way, shape or form takes into account the need on the ground. The initiative needs to be driven by Government but based on recognised need and not based on a group that may or may not have the capability..

Finally, is the Minister happy that the plan has been fully costed? Is she happy that she has a good idea how much it will cost to implement the plan? Is she confident that the budgetary needs will be made available?

Deputy Helen McEntee

In response to the last question, we are still finalising. I cannot say that we have the final budget but, yes, I am confident that there is a very clear commitment by all of the Government that the strategy will be funded. So if it is going to work, be implemented, have the desired effect and there is zero tolerance across all of government and all sectors, the strategy needs to be fully budgeted. I am confident that it will be but we are still finalising and engaging with Departments. We have not reached a point where I can say that we have the overall figure but we are close.

The MOU will apply to accommodation and not just the delivery of service, all of which will move over to my Department and then the agency will have specific responsibility. That is an important element because it will work closely with the sector. This is not about replacing the invaluable organisations that work on the ground; this is about supporting them, learning from them and then using all of that information to be targeted and focused. As the Deputy has outlined, this should not be about where there is a group on the ground and capability to be able to apply. Organisations will have the capability and no accommodation but at the same time it is a very difficult process and we have to look for it.

What we are trying to make sure, through the work that we are doing in the interdepartmental group, that will then be taken over and implemented through the agency, is that it is looking at need, population and assessing goals and objectives. The approach is everyone who needs a refuge space will get one and to date, unfortunately, that has not been the case. We have fantastic accommodation and fantastic people work in this sector but we need to fill the gaps. We also need it to be a little more-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Helen McEntee

We are already linking in with managers and people who work in refuge spaces and learning from them in terms of other refuges and conditions. There are projects under way and anything that happens will be shared. A lot of good things are happening in this space. With everybody working together provision is targeted and physically give lots of what we need, when we can achieve it and, most important, that it is led by demand and goes to where the need is most severe.

Chairman

There was a little bit of interference on the line but we got the response. I thank the Minister for her very substantive response.

I have follow-up questions and will focus on specific recommendations that the Citizens' Assembly made on this topic. Again, I thank the Minister for her engagement and acknowledge her personal commitment.

I also acknowledge that recommendation 37, under the DSGBV heading, has been met, which we will acknowledge in our report. No. 37 states: "All Government action to prevent and counter domestic, sexual and gender-based violence should be coordinated by a Cabinet Minister with direct responsibility for implementation of a national strategy." The Minister has clearly set out that she is that "Cabinet Minister", not will be, and that this principle is being implemented in the transfer of responsibilities entirely to the Department of Justice, which is welcome.

We, as members of the committee, are conscious that the murder of Ashling Murphy put an immense focus on the gaps in service provision for the victims and survivors of DSGBV. We are glad that the aim to have a zero tolerance of DSGBV in society has been included in the draft national strategy, which we welcome. I am also glad, as Chairperson, and along with committee members, to see that the draft national strategy is aligned with the important recommendations made by the Citizens' Assembly.

I wish to raise a number of issues that I have with specific recommendations, and that arise from the hearings that we have already had and the previous exchange with Deputy Clarke. First, we are glad to hear that the new national strategy will be published before the summer recess and, indeed, in a matter of weeks. I was glad to hear about the action plan. Will the action plan be published alongside the strategy? I think that the Minister said that both will go to Government together so we could anticipate that they will be published together. That will be important because we need to see the timeline in the action plan and that will inform our own work on the committee.

Recommendation 38 states: "Eliminate tolerance in our society of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence by developing and implementing awareness, prevention and education campaigns" and I am conscious that is somewhat beyond the traditional remit of the Department of Justice. Given the Minister is committed to the establishment a new agency, which is also welcome, will it have a remit to implement or oversee the implementation of an "awareness, prevention and education campaigns"? Next week, the committee will engage with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris. We will examine these campaigns and their roll-out at third level, and in future weeks we will look at their roll-out across the education sector. Again, just looking at the need for co-ordination, which underlies the Citizens' Assembly recommendations, the draft strategy and, indeed, the fourth pillar of the Istanbul Convention, which is policy co-ordination, will the agency have that remit?

I welcome that a statutory agency will be established as it will help with the implementation of the recommendations. Is there a timeline for its introduction given primary legislation will be required?

Under recommendation 39(e), the assembly called for the "Putting in place a Victims/Survivors Commissioner as an independent advocate and voice for victims/survivors". Is there a plan to put in place a commissioner for victims and survivors separately or as part of the remit of the new agency? I am conscious that the Minister mentioned the very welcome introduction of an entitlement for victims to their own dedicated legal advice and support throughout the process and that provision may meet the need that was identified by the assembly. The broader issue of "a Victims/Survivors Commissioner" was raised by the assembly.

Recommendation 39 also set out a number of points concerning the justice system, and specifically the courts system. At previous committee hearings NGOs expressed serious concerns about a lack of co-ordination, in particular, between criminal and family court processes. This is something that I have heard about for a long time.

Any of us who have met survivors have heard for so long about real frustration and distress. Real damage has been caused in some cases to children, for example where family courts dealing with custody and guardianship issues do not have information on parallel criminal proceedings around domestic violence, breaches of protection orders and so on. How can we ensure that co-ordination is better carried out? Will that be the remit of the new agency? What measures are being taken now in advance of the establishment of the agency?

A related issue also addressed in the citizens' assembly is the way in which counselling and medical records and the victim's character are addressed in courtroom settings. The assembly has called for guidelines and specialist training for judges and lawyers, which the Minister addressed in her opening statement. At the hearings we heard real concern from NGOs that the new provisions around admission of counselling records in the 2017 Act are still not really addressing victims' needs and concerns and are still enabling defence counsel to undermine the victim's character.

I am sorry, I have gone over time. I have two more questions. One is on coercive control. We heard there was concern about a lack of understanding among criminal law practitioners and prosecution and policing authorities about how to police and prevent coercive control. Finally, on recommendation 42, which the Citizens' Assembly put forward under a different heading, Gender Equality Principle in Law and Policy, the assembly called for a statutory body for gender equality under the responsibility of a Cabinet Minister charged with cross-Government co-ordination of gender equality issues. We flagged with the Minister that we would ask her about that even though it is beyond the issue of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Does the Government have any plans for a broader statutory body for gender equality and broader co-ordination on gender equality issues?

Deputy Helen McEntee

On the vast majority of the recommendations, work is already in train or will be included in the strategy, which is really positive. The Chairman mentioned the completion of the first one in respect of a dedicated Minister, the agency and better co-ordinated structures that we are putting in place that I mentioned previously.

In terms of the agency itself, the timeline we have set out is 18 months. There is potential for the time to be shorter or for it to be longer, but I would hope it will not take longer. That is based on the time it has taken for previous agencies to go through the initial phase of passing the legislation, establishment and everything else. We have a critical path, as I mentioned, that my Department has set out, looking at all the actions that need to happen. We have already started that work. We have started engagement with the sector to make sure the structures that are in place are correct. The critical path will be included in the strategy so we will be able to see how things are progressing.

The remit is not just the delivery of service and refuge accommodation but will also include responsibility for the delivery of national campaigns. The latest strategy had a particular focus on national campaigns. It was split into two segments over six years and we had various campaigns around the themes "What would you do?" and "No excuses", which only finished up last year. The intention for the new strategy is that there will be more focused campaigns and education pieces within our schools. We are working closely with the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley, on that piece. We are also already working with higher education institutions and the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris. He is working on a consent campaign and a national consent hub with NUI Galway. From that, a wider national campaign on consent will follow. That will happen before the agency is in place but anything subsequent in terms of campaigns will be delivered through the agency.

The agency will also be responsible for gathering information. That is something I think we are missing when it comes to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, having enough information to be able to develop our policy. Much of it comes from the sector, which is amazing, but it is important that we have very clear and defined information and that we are collecting it on a regular basis. The agency will be tasked with that.

The commissioner is not something we have on our agenda in terms of actions. What I have tried through Supporting A Victim's Journey is to identify and map the journey a typical person may go on as they go through the criminal justice system. We have been working with the sector, those who are on the front line and who engage with victims, and we have been speaking directly to victims, to identify gaps in the system and where we need to expand our support or provide additional funding.

Separate to that, we established a national victims' forum, which met for the first time approximately two months ago. It is not specific to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence but a vast majority of the organisations that are engaged with the forum deal with this issue. The intention is that there will be an opportunity for different committees and working groups on topics that people want to work on to make sure victims' voices are heard and that information feeds in. It is something I am very open to exploring or looking at further if it is felt that a specific commissioner or a particular role within the agency is needed. I am willing to look at that further to see if there is something more we need to do there. The whole point of this is that the victim is at the very centre so their voice has to be heard at every stage.

On coercive control, and in any new laws that we pass, it is so important that the Garda, the legal professions, judges, and anybody else including those in the health sector are aware of this, know the laws, are up to speed and can pass that information on to their client or to victims and survivors. A number of strands of work are happening in that regard under Supporting a Victim's Journey. Education was a key priority for Tom O'Malley in his original report and subsequently in Supporting a Victim's Journey. We have had training start with the Judiciary. We have had court settings where there was specific training around domestic and sexual violence. The intention as more judges are trained is that they would be able to train and engage with colleagues further so that we have a larger number of people who are specifically trained within the judicial system. Similarly when it comes to our solicitors and barristers we have been engaged with the Law Society and Bar Council for almost two years now on this, identifying the education they are providing through their own structures and how we can improve it. We are also doing a mapping exercise, similar to Supporting a Victim's Journey, to see where education is being provided across the various areas and how we can fill any gaps and where there needs to be improvement.

When it comes to An Garda Síochána, I appreciate that for the past couple of years it has been difficult to provide the in-person training, which is absolutely vital in respect of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. The Commissioner has given a commitment that in-person training will start again this year specifically for those in the divisional protective services units, DPSUs. We would like to see in-person training expanded as part of the general training, in which it is included at the moment, and that it would happen on a regular basis to make sure that when we have new laws, such as those on coercive control, Coco's law or the forthcoming provisions on stalking and non-fatal strangulation, people are aware of them and victims benefit from that understanding.

Family and civil justice is something I am very conscious of. One of the first people I spoke to coming in to the Department, a victim, explained that it was a massively difficult issue for her. There are two elements to this. The family justice oversight group has been looking at the family justice structures within the legal system. It will be publishing an overall strategy for family law accompanied by the family courts Bill, which is going to develop family court hubs. There will be a particular focus in that strategy, as well as the domestic violence strategy, on how we can bridge that gap where there are civil and criminal proceedings happening at the same time, and how we can make sure that people are not re-traumatised and that there is sharing and crossover of information where possible. It will be encompassed in two different strategies, which are being worked on at the moment.

The medical records issue is very much part of Supporting a Victim's Journey. We have been working with the Department of Health. One of the key elements is making sure that victims know they can object to their records being presented in court. That is often not known. A body of work is being done to look at how it currently happens and what better mechanisms we can put in place to protect victims. There is work ongoing on that and there will be further detail in the strategy.

There is no plan within my own Department to have a specific agency.

The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has appeared before the committee and he said the same. He gave a commitment to write back to the committee. While responsibility for gender equality used to be with the Department of Justice, it has now moved to his Department and he would be best placed to develop such an agency if that were to happen. Of course, it would have my full and absolute support and that of my Department if that route were be taken.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for her very comprehensive response. I call Senator Pauline O'Reilly, the Vice Chair of the committee, to be followed by Deputy Clarke for a very short follow-up.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Minister. I wish to focus on recommendation 39(a). The Minister mentioned the family courts Bill. We have had internal discussions on the balance to be struck when it comes to mediation. I believe that currently less than 5% of those involved in family law cases go through mediation prior to taking it to the courts. What is the Minister's proposal? How can we step up mediation and collaborative law while also ensuring that people are not forced into compulsory mediation? When it comes to gender-based violence, it is important that people are free to go to the courts and are not forced to endure a longer period before exiting something that may be quite harmful to them. I know that the National Women's Council has asked that we do not have mandatory mediation. From people not involved it seems that the best outcome would be that everyone should go through mediation before going to court.

Deputy Helen McEntee

It will not be mandatory mediation. The Senator is right that there are cases where mediation is not the answer and is not the appropriate forum for people to engage. She is also right that not enough people go through mediation. Often a calm situation can become quite adversarial when it goes to the court, and it is often not the appropriate setting for people to reach an agreement. The family justice plan of action will try to divert and create better pathways for mediation for people, while acknowledging that will not work for everybody and it certainly will not be mandatory.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

What is the best practice that the Department is using to develop that?

Deputy Helen McEntee

A group, chaired by my Department, has been working on that over the past year. It is linking in with the judicial system, the court structures and various representative groups, looking at best practice in other jurisdictions. It is taking that information that we are developing now, the overall plan and the strategy itself. Once we have it published, we will be able to go into it in greater detail. However, I reassure the Senator that the group has been meeting for approximately a year and has had engagements with different groups, including children because much of the time children are involved in these cases. We have tried to take in different perspectives - those who are in the system, those in the legal profession and also those outside it - and try to take it away somewhat from a legal setting.

Obviously, the hubs themselves could be extremely important where we have not just the courtroom but we have these other types of supports available to people. I was recently in Dolphin House which has that type of support there, including the facility for mediation in the same building as the courtroom. It is about ensuring that people are aware it is there, know what it can do and how it can help them. We need to ensure those supports are available to people in the same place at the same time. That is where the signpost is for any other type of support they might need.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

It is critical that we have proper funding in place. What can already be quite a lengthy process is often lengthened further because of mediation. That is often the reason people do not enter into mediation because it is quite difficult to get practitioners. I assume funding will be included in that plan.

Deputy Helen McEntee

Yes.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

The Minister was in the Seanad yesterday to debate Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2022. Senators Chambers, Doherty and I are co-signatories of that Bill. Senator Doherty did considerable work on that, as did Noeline Blackwell of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. Key to that Bill is that we allow character witnesses to be cross-examined. They come before a judge after someone has been found guilty. It is about ensuring that they can be cross-examined. We know there is a very low incidence of reporting cases of rape and sexual assault and subsequently of people following through and going through court procedures. I know the Minister is doing significant work on that. I ask her to ensure that the Bill progresses through the Dáil with Government support or to incorporate the elements of the Bill into her own legislation.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I apologise that as three other justice Bills were being taken at the same time, I was only able to get into the Seanad for the end of the debate. I support the intentions of the Bill and anything that will encourage victims to come forward and to know that their voices will be heard even perhaps at the end when a decision has been made and sentencing is being passed. As the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, explained, a number of elements of the Bill need further work. There is no issue with that. It is a matter of engaging and trying to see where we can fit this into the general scheme of legislation that is passing through. We have prioritised a number of Bills for this year. We need to ensure we can progress this work while not delaying any other Bills. It is something that I support, but we need to engage with each other and to look at the overall scope and intention of the Bill.

Supporting a Victim's Journey very much focuses on providing legal aid. We need to see where that might fit because there are a number of questions around where and when that comes into play if somebody has not had them before. We need to work through various details but, in general, I support the principles of the Bill. It is about ensuring that we get the timing right and that we can also progress all the legislation that has been set out.

Chairman

I have read the Bill and that is a very important point. I welcome the Minister's commitment that the victim will have dedicated legal advice and support throughout the legal process. It is something we have requested for a long time.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I wish to discuss a section under pillar 2, enabling victims and survivors to live in safe accommodation as a priority. We have spoken at length about the need for refuge places and the need for those pathways, hubs and other supports. I want to look at specifically in this instance where the safest place for the survivor is in the family home. Yesterday afternoon SPARK and One Family made a presentation in the audiovisual room at which a deeply concerning issue was raised that I was not aware of. Where a barring order has been put in place because of domestic violence and the abusing partner pays the mortgage on the property, that is assessed as means for the purposes of social welfare. Phenomenal steps were taken during the Covid pandemic relating to rent supplement where the survivor of domestic violence needed to seek alternative accommodation. In this situation there seems to be a very real discrepancy that is resulting in survivors and their children being further traumatised because if that is taken in as means, it results in reduced social welfare payments and increased levels of poverty. The outlook for the family is much more challenging than it could be if this was simply looked at again.

We are in a position to provide payment, and rightly so, to those who flee the family home because of domestic violence but there does not seem to be the same corresponding level of support for those who are in a position to stay in the family home and the perpetrator of the abuse leaves. Is the Minister aware of the discrepancy and anomaly? What engagement has she had with her Cabinet colleagues who have more responsibility for social welfare payments, specifically under the second pillar of the convention that calls for safe accommodation to be made a priority?

Deputy Helen McEntee

All of these issues are being examined. Without going into detail about what is in the strategy, all of these issues are being looked at. I am very conscious that it is not just my Department but that the Department of Social Protection plays a significant role, and the Minister for Social Protection is very conscious of that as well. I assure the Deputy that all of these issues are being looked at as part of the strategy.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Minister.

Chairman

Other colleagues have engaged remotely and as I do not see indications of a wish to speak, I draw our proceedings to a close. I thank the Minister for her very thoughtful and considered engagement. I thank her for her comprehensive responses to the detailed questions posed by committee members. We very much look forward to the publication of the full national strategy on DSGBV and the action plan, and slightly further down the line the introduction of the legislation on the new agency. Again, I thank the Minister for her positive and constructive engagement and I thank her officials. Finally, I draw the session to a close and thank colleagues for their participation.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.42 a.m. until 9 a.m. on Thursday, 5 May 2022.