Joint Committee on Gender Equality debate -
Thursday, 29 Sep 2022

Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality: Discussion

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Senators Pauline O'Reilly and Alice-Mary Higgins. We welcome Senator Lynn Ruane who is substituting for Senator Alice-Mary Higgins. Members have the option of being physically present in the committee room or joining the meeting via Microsoft Teams from their Leinster House offices but they may not participate in the meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. I ask members joining on Teams to mute their microphones when not making a contribution and to use the raised hand function to indicate. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility in respect of protection against the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Varadkar. I also welcome from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Ms Fiona O'Dea, principal officer in the company law review unit, and Ms Helena Quilty, assistant principal in the enterprise strategies unit.

Before we begin, I must read out an important notice regarding parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite the Tánaiste to make his opening statement, after which I will open the floor to members for questions and answers. I am conscious that time is somewhat limited. As we have only an hour, I am going to limit exchanges to six minutes per member to facilitate as many members as possible contributing in that time.

Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation. (Deputy Leo Varadkar)

I thank the Chairperson and members of the committee for inviting me to discuss the Citizens' Assembly’s recommendations on gender equality and the work that my Department is doing to achieve gender equality in the workplace.

I am joined on my left by Ms Fiona O'Dea who covers company law matters at the Department and Ms Helena Quilty from the enterprise division, which monitors and provides support for the balance for better business initiative, of which some members will be aware. During the discussion I may defer to my officials on some of the issues and questions. Both Ms O'Dea and Ms Quilty know much more about what my Department is doing on these matters than I do and it would be strange if the man did all the talking when the two women beside me know most of the answers. I decided not to be the Wizard of Oz on this occasion so I may refer some of the questions to them.

As members know, the Citizens' Assembly was established on foot of an initiative by the previous Government in 2017, which I had the pleasure of leading. Following the result of the referendum to repeal the eighth amendment from the Constitution, it was an attempt to examine what the next steps would be in regard to gender equality in our country. The Citizens' Assembly has done some really good work and the members, chairperson and secretariat deserve our thanks for their deliberations, much of which was done during the pandemic.

As Deputies and Senators will be aware, my colleague, the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O’Gorman, is leading the Government’s work on the equality agenda, which is very much a joined-up Government initiative. This work includes the implementation of the new gender pay gap reporting legislation, which we are trying to get under way in workplaces, as well as legislation to enhance work-life balance, providing new and extended rights to parents and carers to seek flexibility in the workplace.

Also included is legislation to enhance work-life balance and to provide new and extended rights to parents and carers to seek flexibility in the workplace. He is also co-ordinating Ireland’s actions as part of the EU's Gender Equality Strategy 2020-2025, including a new requirement that 40% of non-executive directors on corporate boards must be from the under-represented gender, whether it be male or female. This was recently agreed as part of intensified negotiations on a long-standing proposal for an EU directive on gender balance on corporate boards and is very much in line with the objectives of Deputy Emer Higgins’s Private Members’ Bill which also seeks to deal with this matter.

From an enterprise perspective, it makes sense to have more women, and more diversity in general, on the boards and senior leadership teams of companies in Ireland. This is not just because it is the right thing to do, but also because it makes economic and business sense. Women represent half of the population, and therefore must represent half of the talent, so it matters to get gender equality right. The benefits of more diverse leadership teams in business are well established. There is evidence that companies with higher levels of gender diversity, and indeed diversity in general, on their boards and senior leadership teams achieve better economic performance. This is also about the bottom line.

We need a pipeline of talent in companies so that more diverse leadership teams and boards are possible and that it is not just the same people cropping up all the time. Young women and girls must be able to believe they can be the business leaders of tomorrow, and I believe they do. It is our collective responsibility to ensure this is the case. Since I established the Balance for Better Business initiative, there has been a steady and sizeable increase in the share of women on the largest listed company boards, rising from 18% in 2018, when we launched the initiative, to 32% in March this year. This is a significant achievement in a short time, but clearly more needs to be done. The objective is parity.

Change takes time, and I realise it may not be happening quickly enough, but the progress at board level in Ireland shows what can be achieved when companies focus on making a change. It should also be remembered that one of the primary reasons for the lack of women in leadership positions in business is not simply a lack of opportunity at senior levels in companies, but barriers at lower levels that are unlikely to be resolved by mandatory board quotas. Carefully monitored voluntary targets help to promote cultural and strategic change at the heart of companies.

The citizens' assembly identified that many women are working in precarious employment and are concerned about workplace conditions and employment security. While Ireland has a comprehensive body of employment rights legislation to protect all employees, in my time in this Department I have prioritised the enumeration of enhanced workers’ rights including a new public holiday, on St. Brigid’s Day or Imbolc, and the first to be named for a woman, the introduction of statutory sick pay, which will come into effect from 1 January 2023, new rights around redundancy for people laid-off temporarily during the pandemic, the right to request remote working, which is proving a challenge, but we are still working on it, and also the protection of workplace tips, the legislation concerning which has been enacted.

These initiatives will further improve the workplace for women, who have traditionally shouldered more caring responsibilities or have exited and then, later in life, sought to re-enter the workforce. Women are more likely to be receiving the national minimum wage and next year’s increase will translate into a pay increase of approximately €1,600 per annum, gross, or 7.6%, which is behind inflation but still well above average wage growth.

Turning to the recommendation regarding the establishment of a legal right to collective bargaining, my view is that collective bargaining is an important element of ensuring industrial relations stability and peace in Ireland. This stability comes from a voluntarist system, where the State does not seek to impose a solution on the parties to a dispute but will, where appropriate, assist them in arriving at a solution. This approach has served us well for many years. Employers can be required to meet representatives of a union, but no law can force both sides to come to an agreement. The Government supports increasing collective bargaining coverage in Ireland. In 2021, I established the independently-chaired, high-level group on collective bargaining, which has recently submitted its final report. The group’s recommendations will be given detailed consideration as we work on preparing an EU-mandated action plan to enhance collective bargaining coverage in Ireland. My Department continues to work closely with the Workplace Relations Commission to ensure that it has the necessary resources to provide its services, including inspections of employment rights compliance and the provision of adjudication, mediation and conciliation services. We allocated additional funding in 2022 to allow for more inspectors to be hired, and we have secured additional funding for 2023 in the budget that was just announced. We are also progressing other initiatives that will improve gender equality in the workplace.

My Department plans to ratify an International Labour Organization, ILO, convention on eliminating violence and harassment in the workplace before the end of the year. I had the pleasure of recently visiting the ILO's headquarters in Geneva. As I mentioned earlier, my colleague, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, is progressing the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022 which, among other provisions, proposes to introduce paid domestic violence leave. I know this has been an important issue for some members of this committee. Ireland has also supported recent policy initiatives on trade and gender at EU level which seek to influence the European Commission to take steps to maximise the benefits of trade for women.

I think it is fair to say that Ireland has made huge advances towards achieving gender equality in the past 20 years, and we continue to move in the right direction while others fall backwards, or at least some of them. We have a long way to go, though, to achieve gender equality and we are a republic unfinished until we do. I look forward to discussing these initiatives and any other relevant issues that the committee wishes to raise.

Chairman

I thank the Tánaiste. I will take members in the order they indicated. I call Deputy Carroll MacNeill.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I have two follow-up questions. The reforms around workers' rights and changing the workers' agenda generally were detailed. Will the Tánaiste outline what he thinks will be the impact on gender equality of some of those reforms and changes? He also referred to "not simply a lack of opportunity at senior levels in companies, but barriers at lower levels that are unlikely to be resolved by mandatory board quotas". It is also a difficulty at not just board but also executive level to get women into senior positions. One thing we have discussed here before is the phenomenon of women in commercial organisations, in particular, taking flexible leave, perhaps after a second child is born, such as a three-day week, etc., while their partners remain on a five-day week. I refer to the cultural effect of that being very different in commercial organisations.

The question in this regard is how we can get to a situation where it is normalised for a man to come into a commercial organisation and say he would like to do a four-day week for the next three years because a second baby had arrived and that becoming a cultural norm. We have introduced legislation on the gender pay gap and reporting in that regard. Is it possible we could go down a road where there would be reporting of information concerning those parents of young children taking flexible leave in various situations? That is just one issue the committee has discussed. I only have a short time, and I would love to hear the Tánaiste's views on the other issues as well.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Regarding the impact of the reforms we are undertaking in the workers' rights area, including the move to a living wage, the introduction of sick pay and also the commencement of auto-enrolment and every worker having a pension fund to top up their State pension, and this will all be the reality by 2024, which is not that far away, this will help with the achievement of gender equality. It is a generalisation and a broad statement, but generally women tend to be in lower-paid jobs and less likely to have their own pension funds. These changes will help. This process will be happening in the long term but certainly by the time we retire, and most of us here are on the younger side of 50. These changes will mean that pretty much everyone, every worker anyway, will have an occupational pension in addition to a State pension. It will be people's individual pension right. There will not be a qualified adult or dependant in the way, as is the case with many retiring women now and that aspect will be important.

Turning to the barriers to women getting into leadership positions and onto company boards, I think this comes down to a degree of promotion bias. If we look at many organisations, and the public service is one example, it is possible to see many women in positions up to a certain point. When we get to the highest tiers, however, there are fewer. There are many reasons for this, but it is a problem. One thing I wish to avoid happening is putting in place a set of quotas but with the outcome that it is the same people who turn up all the time on boards. By the way, this happens with men as well as women, but we do not want it to happen in general. Therefore, we need a stream of people getting promoted. I think there is promotion bias in business now, for many reasons, but this needs to change. Equally, regarding returning to work, if someone takes time off as a mother to raise her family, and it is more likely to be a woman than a man in this situation, four or five years of experience and promotion will have been lost. We must account for that in some way, especially because we want and need people to return to the workplace.

On the Deputy's question concerning whether we could oblige companies to collect more information and report it, the short answer is "Yes".

On the question on whether we could oblige companies to collect more information and report it, the short answer is "Yes". However, we always need to have regard to the number of information obligations we impose on companies. It is fine for a big company with a human resources department. Fulfilling the obligations is just something that someone in a human resources department would do; however, for a small company, filling in all the reports on the regulations and submitting all the reports, where there is potential to be fined, prosecuted and shamed for not doing so, represents a real cost. We have to bear that in mind when we impose obligations on small companies that do not have a dedicated HR function.

Chairman

Has Deputy Carroll MacNeill any follow-up questions? She has a little more time.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Yes. One concerns the stream of public life and politics. Obviously, the Minister is here as party leader. This is something we have covered in many different ways. What is the Minister's view on women in public life more broadly and the barriers they are facing.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

People face all sorts of barriers, depending on their circumstances. There are socio-economic barriers and barriers related to race and membership of minorities. Therefore, we need to see things in the round. As the Deputy knows, three of our seven Cabinet Ministers are female. We have 66 female councillors, which is more than any other party. We have more female MEPs than any other party but it is not the case that we are anywhere close to achieving parity, particularly in the Oireachtas. A former Fine Gael Minister, Mr. Phil Hogan, introduced the gender quota legislation, so I do not see it as an obligation so much as something we want to do. We are going to achieve it for the next election and I hope we will see a significant increase in the number of female Deputies and Senators in the next Oireachtas. As the Deputy knows, the Seanad is much more balanced than the Dáil, for many different reasons.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

It is very good to hear the Minister does not suffer from promotional bias himself.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

No, I would love to have more people to promote. I am working on that.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The Tánaiste referred to the Balance for Better Business report. I have a question on that. Recently, officials from the ESRI attended a committee meeting and said there is a noticeable discrepancy between the number of men in Ireland taking parental leave, because of the €250 per week, and the number of our European neighbours taking it. In what way is this a factor? How does the Minister intend to address the concerns raised in the Balance for Better Business report on parental leave within the existing limitations associated with the current system of paid paternity leave?

I wish to touch on the International Labour Organization's Violence and Harassment Convention, 2019, No. 190. Recently, the Minister of State, Deputy English, stated that, further to his having received legal advice, supplementary legislation would not be necessary for the ratification of the convention. He also stated the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is undertaking stakeholder consultation.

The third national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence commits the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to ratifying the convention by the end of the year. Does the Minister believe this is a deadline he will meet? The strategy also commits his Department to assisting employers and trade unions to create and develop work environments that are free from sexual harassment in all its forms and to work to eliminate male violence against women, supporting the creation of the White Ribbon organisations. Could he give a brief outline of his Department's progress in this regard?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I thank the Deputy. As she knows, the rates for paternity, maternity and parental benefits are the same for women and men. The maximum is around €250, which I believe is what she said. I am a supporter of pay-related benefits. We used to have them in Ireland but do not anymore. They are actually recommended by the Commission on Taxation and Welfare, which has some very positive recommendations as well as some that I do not agree with. I would like us to move to that. That would better reflect the amount of money you are paying, so the more money you pay into the PRSI fund across your working life, the more benefits you get. This was partly the case with the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP. When we moved to the second phase of it, those who paid in more got more and those who earned more got more. Therefore, you get a replacement rate figure of 66% or 50%, or something like that, up to a cap. Some people do not like that and believe it perpetuates socio-economic inequality. I believe it is actually fairness because those who contribute more benefit more. Obviously, there will be different views on that.

With regard to international conventions, some countries sign a convention and then forget about it or implement it over ten or 20 years. We try to do it the other way around. It was the same with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Before we sign such a convention, we like to be ready to ratify and implement it in a meaningful way. We have been doing the analysis and believe we can achieve this by the end of the year, hopefully by mid-December. I would like to have it done before I depart this office. That is the objective.

I am not entirely sure of the position on the White Ribbon campaign. Ms O'Dea or Ms Quilty might comment on it.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Does the Minister wish to submit an email in response to my question on the White Ribbon campaign?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

We can do that. I am aware of the campaign but do not want to give an incorrect answer.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The email could outline the progress made to date on implementation. The Minister could certainly revert to us by email if that suits better. We often ask witnesses for a written follow-up.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I am told the Department has been going through a consultation phase with regard to the ratification process. It was between 5 September and 26 September. The information is published on the Department's website. That is to do with the convention rather than White Ribbon.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

It is not realistic for committee members to expect those who come in to have the answers to every question we ask, because this is such a wide-ranging conversation. Gender equality does not affect women alone; there is also the male aspect. Gender inequality is affecting everybody across the State. If it suits, it would be best for the Minister to come back to us with an answer in writing on the White Ribbon campaign. I would absolutely accept that.

Chairman

We often have questions that are somewhat beyond the remit that witnesses are asked to address. We usually ask for a written follow-up in such cases. We are conscious that, even within the 45 recommendations, there is such a broad remit regarding gender equality.

Senator Lynn Ruane

I welcome the Minister. I am filling in for Senator Higgins today, so I am over-prepared. I was not sure whether there would be a second round of questions.

Chairman

We can have one, depending on time.

Senator Lynn Ruane

Grand. I might also send on some questions I might not get to ask.

On the method of calculation, what is the rationale for using 60% of the median hourly wage rather than using another model? One such model that comes to mind concerns the minimum essential standard of living, which looks beyond pay and toward items that people need to live a life of decent quality. If we opt for 60% of the median hourly wage, we will miss some of the lowest earners, which ends up with benefits going in the wrong direction.

With regard to pensions, while many colleagues will discuss equality in terms of pay, we know there already exists severe inequality and discrimination regarding women's pension entitlements. The proposal of the Government to require 40 years of contributions to get a full contributory State pension seems regressive and discriminates against those who engage in care work, many of whom are women. The Minister spoke about those who contribute the most, but contributions are made not only through PRSI but also through care. Could the Minister discuss the decision and state whether it was subjected to gender and equality proofing before it was made? How can the Government say it is serious about gender equality when taking a regressive step that would disproportionately affect women by way of the State pension?

Although the Minister is here as Tánaiste, I wish to take a look forward to when he is Taoiseach. It would be nice to have on record his support for the referendum on the Constitution and a statement to the effect that it is not only a question of care but also of who we recognise as families, such that families like mine will be recognised. It would be good to have a few comments on that.

Deputy Carroll MacNeill mentioned promotional bias.

There is an opportunity within the Seanad in the coming months for the Tánaiste to look to women within his party in regard to the position of Cathaoirleach. I am just putting that on his radar for when he is making those decisions regarding promotional bias. It would be nice to see a female Cathaoirleach in the Seanad for the rest of this term.

Chairman

I thank the Senator. We will give the Tánaiste a bit of leeway on time because there were a number of issues. We produced an interim report on recommendations Nos. 1 to 3 related to the constitutional referendum, so Senator Ruane's question was pertinent to that.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I should say I had the privilege of being able to appoint four Members to the Seanad as Taoiseach's nominees in 2020 and all four were female. I also had the privilege to nominate the Leader of the Seanad, who is female, so I do have to promote men the odd time as well. Certainly, on the Seanad side at least, I think my record is okay in that regard.

On the referendum, we considered this under the previous Government and came to the view we would prefer to delete the entire section relating to the woman's place in the home, which belongs to a different time. While I think it was well intentioned at the time, it is not 1937 anymore. We made that decision as a Government when we consulted more widely and we decided not to proceed with that. We came to the view, as the assembly did, that we should replace it with a new, more modern amendment that reflects what modern families in Ireland look like, which is not very different from what the process would have been in the 1930s. That would include single-parent headed families, LGBT families and so on, and we decided also to recognise care in the Constitution.

When it comes to the Constitution, the devil is always in the detail, and once something is put into the Constitution, the power to determine what it means is given to the courts, not to the elected Members of the Oireachtas. I am always a little nervous about that. I believe that in a democracy, ultimately, the elected people in this House should make the decisions, ideally not the courts. It is all very well to say we want an Article in the Constitution that says something with which we all agree, but we need to make sure we think through the implications of how that might be interpreted. That has happened a bit too often in the past and we need to be careful about it. It is about getting the wording right.

On the living wage question and the figure of 60% of the median wage, that is not a Government decision, at least not yet. At the moment, it is just the unanimous recommendation of the Low Pay Commission. The workers' representatives, the employers' representatives and the independents and academics all recommended we go for 60% of the median wage, rising to 66% of the median over time. It is backed up with the detailed research paper conducted by Maynooth University, all of which has been published. If I were to explain the thinking, which is just the commission’s thinking and does not yet reflect a Government decision, when the minimum wage was introduced, it amounted to about 60% of the median wage. While the minimum wage has increased ahead of inflation over the past 20 years - not every year but in the round - it has not kept up with median earnings, and we want to restore that and create a legal link between median earnings and people on the lowest pay in order that, as the tide rises, we will make sure it rises for those on the lowest pay as well. That will help eliminate low pay in our society, which is defined as people earning less than 66% of the median wage.

There is an alternative approach, the minimum essential standards of living, MESL, which involves creating a basket of goods and services that anyone should be able to afford to have a dignified life. That is an option but there are three difficulties with it, the first of which is that it is subjective. People will have different views as to what should be in the basket. The figure 66% of median is easily calculated and the Central Statistics Office, CSO, can produce that figure in a day, whereas there would be rows over what should and should not be in the basket.

Second, if we are successful over the coming years, as I think we will be, in dramatically reducing the costs of public transport, childcare and rent, that basket will actually shrink, meaning a living wage calculated in that way could be reduced as we get on top of some of the high costs that exist in Ireland, such as for childcare, healthcare, education and rent. It would seem strange to me that median wages would increase while the basket would decrease, but that is one of the potential problems with that model.

The third issue is that in a recession, people could be laid off, as we saw 12 or 13 years ago, with the cost of living nonetheless rising, and we could become hamstrung by that model. In order to save jobs, sometimes pay needs to fall, but that option would not be available if the basket kept increasing. Employers, therefore, would have to cut hours and lay off more people to satisfy the basket. They are three practical problems with that model and the research is available for people to read.

On the total contributions approach, that is being led by the Minister for Social Protection rather than me. The thinking is that people can start work at 16, as many of us will have done with part-time jobs and so on, and they generally finish work at 66, a period of 50 years. We are now going to allow people, if they so choose, to work until 70, a period of 54 years. The idea is that of those 50 to 54 years, a person should contribute at least 40 years, which still leaves time for study, time out and so on. The proposal is very much to recognise care; it will not recognise only PRSI credited contributions. It provides for a certain number of years of care, either of a child or of a person in need of care. That is recognised as part of the proposal. I think there is a maximum number of years, although I cannot recall exactly what it is. It is not just about paying cash contributions into the Social Insurance Fund; the contribution of care is recognised in the proposal as well.

Senator Lynn Ruane

The Tánaiste stated that over the 54-year period, a person should work for at least 40 years. That allows 14 years for time off or care, but for people with kids who have additional needs or no one to mind them or who cannot afford childcare, it will still be very difficult to get what seems like a reasonable period within that 14 years.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The proposal is that within the 40 years, a person can count 15 or 20 years of care.

Senator Lynn Ruane

Okay.

Chairman

We can seek clarification on that. A number of members wish to come in. We will send the Tánaiste a copy of the interim report in which we recommended alternative wordings for the constitutional change. We have sent it to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, but in light of Senator Ruane's question, we will also send it to the Tánaiste.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I welcome the Tánaiste to the committee. To follow on from what Senator Ruane asked, the CSO has stated that the figure of 60% of the median wage still leaves people at risk of poverty, and the Tánaiste seemed to agree that is the case. On that basis, does he believe the Government's calculation is appropriate or is he hoping to change that? A lot of people earning the minimum wage who are hopeful of a living wage are women, given it is generally in accommodation, food, wholesale and retail that the minimum wage is paid. The programme for Government has a commitment to delivering a living wage in four years but the general consensus, after the increase in the minimum wage in the budget, is that it will take at least ten years to get to a living wage. How does the Tánaiste hope to resolve that? These are the people who get up early in the morning.

On the Workplace Relations Commission, the budget seems to have acknowledged that not enough people work there. I believe there are only 50 labour inspectors and that figure needs to increase to 90. Will the Tánaiste clarify the core funding budget for that and how the Government hopes to make up the shortfall?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

On the final question, we have secured an additional €8 million for staff next year. Given they will not all be hired on 1 January, the figure is higher because those additional staff will be hired throughout the course of the year, but that will have to be divided among the Department and all our agencies, including the Health and Safety Authority, the Workplace Relations Commission, IDA, Enterprise Ireland and so on, and we will have to work out how that will be done. It will definitely mean more staff in all those agencies but we will have to divide the cake over the coming weeks and work out how best to apportion that additional staffing complement.

On the 60% of median proposal, I reiterate this is the recommendation of the Low Pay Commission and there is no Government decision on it as yet. It is out to public consultation at the moment, but the recommendation of the commission is unanimous.

All the worker representatives, business representatives, academics and independents signed up to the proposal, which is to achieve 60% of median earnings first and then move forward to 66% of median earnings thereafter. It is intended for that to happen over four years, with 2023 being year one. We would be done by 2027. However, it could be done more quickly if economic conditions allow and it might take longer if they do not. The reason they went for 60% first was that in the research - and this is not my personal opinion - there is some evidence that a move above 60% starts to impact on employment. We in Ireland have been successful in increasing wages, and workers' rights and terms and conditions, for years now without any negative impact on employment. There have never been more people at work in Ireland than there are now.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I am sorry to interrupt but representatives of ICTU were before the committee last week. The threat was always that an increase in wages would result in more unemployment. However, that was never the case. That is never how it has turned out. The Minister is soon to move into the position of Taoiseach. Does he think it would be appropriate for all Departments and semi-State bodies to adopt the living wage? Would he see that as-----

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It would be appropriate and right for all Government bodies to adopt the national living wage, which is 60% of median earnings. There are many different voluntary groups and independent bodies that will say what they think the living wage should be. Deputy Cronin and I could set up a group tomorrow and determine what we think the living wage should be. When the UK established a national living wage, one group established itself and determined what the real living wage should be. Another business group said it should be something else. That said, I absolutely agree that the Government and public bodies should have regard to the national living wage, which is proposed to be calculated at 60% of median earnings.

Deputy Réada Cronin

The general consensus is that it could take ten years for us to get to the living wage. The programme for Government hoped that would be achieved in four years.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I am not sure what "general consensus" means. It might just be the people to whom the Deputy is speaking. The proposal is for four years, with 2023 being year one.

Chairman

In recommendation No. 34, the Citizens' Assembly seeks to align the minimum wage with the living wage by 2025. That is the recommendation on which we are focused.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Yes.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The proposal-----

Deputy Réada Cronin

Does the Minister think that is achievable?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I think it would be risky in the current economy. The Low Pay Commission has recommended four years, with 2023 being year one. I know the Deputy feels, as many people might, that the increase in the minimum wage of 7.6% is inadequate. I am hearing from many small employers that they are worried about their ability to pay it, particularly at a time of waning consumer confidence and rising energy prices. I must have regard to that. If we do see employment falling off and hours being cut as a consequence of higher wage costs, I cannot ignore it. The most important workers' right is the right to work. I hope we will see employment continue to rise in 2023. That will give me the reassurance that we can increase the national minimum wage at a faster rate. However, we cannot allow ideology to blind us from the facts if employment ends up going in the wrong direction.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I will be brief because I know time is tight. One of my questions relates partly to the Minister's role as Tánaiste and partly to his Department. There was a commitment in the programme for Government to well-being budgeting. The Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform have done a considerable amount of work on gender and equality budgeting. However, there was not an enormous amount announced in the budget on Tuesday. I was expecting to see metrics on gender budgeting and well-being budgeting. The dashboard was launched in 2021. There was an excellent paper from the Department of Finance. However, that kind of measurement and evidence-based decision-making was not necessarily evident. Are we going to see that in the coming weeks? I welcome the switch analysis on our progress. Are we going to see measures such as gender and well-being budgeting analyses of the 2023 budget in the coming weeks? How is the Minister rolling our performance metrics in that regard in his Department? Has gender budgeting changed those performance metrics?

I also wish to raise a matter I previously raised with the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman. The Gender Recognition Act was a step forward but we have recently come across some lacunas in it, mostly to do with non-binary recognition. A number of people would have liked to have identified as non-binary in the census. That might be work for the next round. Is that something the Government is considering and to which it is open?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I might come back to the Deputy on the well-being and gender budgeting, and defer to the Department of Finance on that issue. I do not want to give the Deputy an inaccurate answer.

In my Department, every time a significant decision is made that requires a decision or information, we bring a memorandum to Government on which a gender analysis is conducted as to the impact, if any, of the proposal. I sometimes feel it is a bit of a box-ticking exercise, and maybe we need to be more thorough in how we do that. The Irish Government Economic Evaluation Service, IGEES, could help us to better factor that into our decision-making. It is something about which I need to talk to my Secretary General.

The Government is definitely open to the suggestion the Deputy made in her final question. I cannot remember what options were available on the census. Was it only male or female? I note that it was. There should be a third option. I need advice from the statisticians in the Central Statistics Office, CSO, about how best to do that. Perhaps we could provide a box labelled "other" and ask respondents to write in or we could provide a list of options. I am not sure of the best way to do that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Minister is open to that idea.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I definitely am.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

On the gender analysis for memos coming to Cabinet, how transparently available to the public are those general analysis pieces?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

They are not at the point they go to Cabinet because Cabinet memos are confidential.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I understand that.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

They are open to freedom of information, FOI, requests afterwards.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

To be honest, those gender analyses are perhaps not as thorough as I would like and the Deputy would expect.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for the point he made about IGEES, which we may follow up on. There is a specific recommendation on gender budgeting from the Citizens' Assembly that we must look at. We may come back on that.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I welcome the Minister and his colleagues. He said in his opening statement that there had been a steady and sizeable increase in the share of women on the largest listed company boards. I suppose that refers to the ISEQ 20. Female representation has risen from 18% in 2018 to 32% in March this year. The Minister said that was a significant achievement in a short time but, clearly, more needs to be done. The Citizens' Assembly recommended enacting gender quota legislation to ensure at least 40% gender balance on the boards of private companies. The current Government strategy obviously relies on voluntary action by businesses. Based on CSO figures, it is likely to take 18 years to reach a 40% target. That is hardly acceptable. Does the Minister agree? Taking into account the limited human resources that might exist in companies, surely there will be a need for a mandatory approach if that projection of 18 years does not change. I would welcome the Minister's comment on that point.

The Minister also spoke about the Seanad and about Fine Gael's women representation at local level. In light of the fact he will soon become Taoiseach, what is his view on the need for quotas at local level? He also said he has a good record of appointing women nominees to the Seanad but Seanad reform is entirely absent from the programme for Government. Reform would allow structural change in how we ensure a gender balance in Seanad representation, rather than just relying on the Taoiseach of the day to ensure the quota is met.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

We have achieved a lot when it comes to balance on boards and we have done so through voluntary action. That includes State boards, which are reasonably gender balanced, and we have seen a lot of progress on those Irish Stock Exchange, ISEQ, big company boards. Having gone from 18% to 34% in only a few years I imagine we could get to 50% in a few more years but we need accelerators and mandatory quotas are part of that. There is an EU directive coming down the line and there is legislation from Deputy Higgins, which we support as a Government and Department. The devil will be in the detail and we have to make sure we get that right but the principle that there should be no less than 40% of any one gender is a good one. To pick up on Deputy Hourigan's comments earlier I have not yet worked out how we would fit non-binary or other gender identities into that. When it is binary it is straightforward but where do we put things if we recognise other gender identities? I would be interested to hear the views of members and to get advice on that.

I would have no objection to quotas in local elections. The way they are done for the Oireachtas is linked to a party's funding. If the quotas were to be applied at local level as well we would have to amend the way we fund parties to take account of how well they did in local elections; not just how well they did in the general election. That is doable but it would require a bit of work to do it. It might help in a way because it would smooth out the peaks and troughs that political parties experience. Parties could have a good local election and a bad general election or the opposite and it might help to smooth that out so it might be a good idea in the round, even setting aside the gender issues.

Senator Fintan Warfield

For the Minister's information we have had some discussion about quotas at local level in the committee and it has been mentioned that we could incentivise them rather than penalising parties.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

We could incentivise them with additional funding, yes. Something along those lines was done before, either by the Minster of State, Deputy Peter Burke, or the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan, when there was a kind of top-up. Additional funding to reward parties that have gender-balanced tickets might be a good way to do it. The reason I like it as an idea is the stream of councillors coming through that we need. I know my party is doing well at finding female candidates in the greater Dublin area and the urban areas but in the rural areas we are finding it difficult. That is a reflection on us as much as anything but it is a real struggle and any incentive or accelerator would be a positive thing.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Will the Minister take Seanad reform as his focus?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Not as a focus to be honest. The focus will be the cost-of-living crisis, housing, improving healthcare and all the issues that are top of the agenda of people when I knock on their doors. As the Senator knows, I was one of the people who-----

Senator Fintan Warfield

A democratic and accountable Oireachtas is crucial to that as well.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It is. I cannot remember which side the Senator was on in the referendum but I was in favour of abolition. A small country could get by just fine with one Chamber but I accept that the people have spoken on that, it is a settled issue now and the Seanad is here to stay. One of the views I had at the time was that I was sceptical as to whether we would get consensus on Seanad reform. Seanad reform is a bit like the Australian republic; most people want it but when it gets put to referendum it is hard to get a majority for the model put in front of them and I am not sure what that model is. A previous group tried to shoehorn a reformed Seanad into the existing constitutional provisions, which require the maintenance of the corporate 1930s panels and all sorts of various other things, and it was not a great proposal in the end.

Senator Fintan Warfield

That group was set up with the Minister's terms of reference.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I know but the terms of reference were confined by the Constitution so absent a constitutional referendum we have to keep these five panels, which derive from a papal encyclical in the 1930s and do not reflect the modern world in my view. We need another referendum.

Senator Lynn Ruane

Senator Warfield and I represent the modern world so we are in there.

Chairman

We are straying beyond the remit of this committee but a Seanad reform blueprint is available.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It is strange that a papal encyclical from the 1930s has created these panels that are locked into our Constitution. If this is where you were starting, you would not start there.

Chairman

Extensive reform is possible, even within the confines of the Constitution, but perhaps we will return to the remit of this committee.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank the Minister for coming in. I refer to the previous discussion about the difficulties in trying to get female candidates for the local elections. We should start looking at the question of the right to maternity leave for councillors. We have a councillor in Ballyfermot who has had two children since she was elected and during both tranches of leave she received no allowances from the council. She does not have another job; she is not a solicitor, a publican or barrister who has other means to fall back on. A basic start we should make is to examine how councillors are treated when they are on maternity leave because otherwise it will become less and less possible to attract working class women in particular.

I want to note one thing in the Minister's speech and then ask him a question about the budget. He talks quite a bit about the need to get more women into business and leadership roles on boards, etc., in line with the objectives of the Bill introduced by Deputy Higgins. All that is well and good but when it comes to talking about the right to free collective bargaining in the State I find that he has less to say. The reason I bring that up is that a lot of women who want to be in trade unions are excluded from them because they do not have the right to free collective bargaining. There is no legal compunction on employers to recognise trade unions in this country and there have been many campaigns to have that in various workplaces that were led by various trade unions. However, there are also two Bills sitting in front of the Government, one from my party, which dates back to 2016 or 2017 and another from Sinn Féin, which try to bring the right to free collective bargaining onto the Statute Book. They just stalled on Second Stage and have never been dealt with. That shows a certain bias on behalf of the Government, which might be too strong a word or maybe it is the right one, towards getting business and leadership on same sorted. However, when it comes to the right to join a trade union the Government and the previous Government have been a little bit lukewarm. I ask the Minister to comment on that. He said he established an independent high-level group that recently submitted its final report. When will that be published and when can we see the right to join a trade union recognised as a statutory right if more than a certain percentage of the workforce wants that recognition? That is an important issue for the women who have been mentioned earlier, those who do the low-paid minimum wage work in particular.

The last question I have is on the budget. I am asking the following question on behalf of the Single Parents Acting for the Rights of Kids, SPARK, which is an advocacy group for lone parents. It is worried that the childcare credit is not listed in all of the credits in the budget. It is worried that because the living alone allowance has a qualifying threshold a lot of lone parents are locked out of it but it would provide them with an extra €200 this winter. I raise that because the vast majority of lone parents are women and that seems a bit discriminatory. The Minister might not be able to answer the budgetary question but I ask him to send an answer back in an email.

Chairman

When we had ICTU before us last week there was a focus on recommendation No. 35 from the citizens' assembly, which called for the establishment of a legal right to collective bargaining.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I do not have an answer to the budgetary question so I will mention it to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, today and we will reply by email.

On the right to maternity leave for local councillors, that is being done. The Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, has the legislation for that ready. I am not sure whether it has been approved by Cabinet yet; it is hard to remember with the amount of things that come through Cabinet but I think it has been. We would plan to have that done as soon as possible and to have it ready for the next local elections in 2024, which are rapidly approaching. It is not just maternity leave; it also allows men to take time off because although it is not the norm, some men take time off to look after a young family and we need to facilitate that as well. It covers both men and women.

I think it will help encourage more women, and parents in general, to run for election and hopefully stay on as councillors. There is a high rate of attrition, with people resigning from the council because of other work or family commitments. The real issue is not so much one of payment as of who is the replacement. The idea is to have a system whereby an alternate or substitute who you nominate would replace you. We will probably need something similar for the Oireachtas because any Minister or Deputy can take six months off and receive full pay. The problem is there is nobody to step in for them. We need a model that allows that to happen.

Deputy Bríd Smith

That is an issue, but so is payment of the allowances for a cohort of people who rely on them. It is not like us. We get a wage with deductions but councillors get an allowance. It is not huge but is substantial enough to help a parent keep their head above water. The payment is removed if you do not sign in for the meetings. That should be in the legislation but is not.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I agree. The point I am making is the payment is not the hard problem to solve. It is a relatively straightforward solution. More complicated is the replacement issue. Who fills in for you, whether you are a Deputy, Senator or councillor? In countries with list systems, it is straightforward: the next person on the list fills in. In the European Parliament, where a B-list is elected on the same day, it is straightforward. We do not have that for local government or Deputies. We need to come up with a solution. I think it is easy to do at council level by allowing somebody to nominate a substitute. It is trickier in the Oireachtas. It would probably require constitutional change to allow a B-list, alternate list or something like that, given the way the Constitution is framed.

On collective bargaining, in Ireland we have the freedom to associate and the freedom not to be associated. One is free to join the union; there is no obligation on employers, at the moment anyway, to recognise a union. The report which will be published in a few weeks' time - certainly within the month of October it is my intention to publish it - is interesting and makes a valid point which people may not always fully consider. There is little point in creating Pyrrhic rights that do not mean things in practice. You could force employers to recognise and meet with a union if that union represents more than half the staff. I do not think it would require constitutional change. You can force employers to recognise a union, meaning sit down and meet them. In no world can you force people to negotiate in good faith or to come to an agreement. In no world can you force workers to accept an agreement without a ballot or force employers to accept an agreement without a vote of its board or shareholders. We need to think this through. We could create a right that is meaningless. Recognition, but what happens then? You cannot force people to negotiate in good faith.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Clearly that is the challenge in every country that has it, and most EU counties have the right to be recognised once it represents over a certain percentage of the workforce. We do not.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

You start with the objective, not the right. I am not against it but there is little point in securing a right that is meaningless. We need to think through the whole pathway. If we required employers to recognise a union when 50% of the workers want that, fine, but what then? Does it change anything if there is not good faith engagement?

Deputy Bríd Smith

It helps a lot.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Do you not still have to have balance? Do you not still have to have shareholders-----

Deputy Bríd Smith

It helps a lot-----

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It might not. That is the point I am making.

Deputy Bríd Smith

It does. I know from my own working life it helps a lot to be able to sit down and say "These are the problems. Will you sit down and talk to us?" and not be told "No, we're not talking to you. We don't have to talk to you."

Deputy Leo Varadkar

How do you force someone to talk to you?

Deputy Bríd Smith

They have a legal obligation to talk to your trade union representative if they look for a meeting.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

So I talk to you, we disagree and that is it.

Deputy Bríd Smith

That is not it. There are processes after that.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

That is the stuff that has to be worked out.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I look forward to the report being published. The Minister said October.

Chairman

It is welcome to hear that. We heard last week about the draft EU directive on adequate minimum wages, which will place obligations about collective bargaining and create that legal framework.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The changes we intend to meet are in the context of that.

Chairman

It is useful to hear the report is due imminently.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will make two comments on the discussion. The general scheme of the Bill concerning maternity leave for councillors was with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage last week and is welcome. The important thing in that is when the guidelines come through, it is the councillor's ability to nominate the substitute, rather than the party having a role in it. With a co-option, the party has to issue a certificate. I do not think that would work for the substitute for maternity leave because of the close working relationship that would have to exist between the substitute and the person.

Second, Senator Warfield raised gender quotas at local level. It is important that we consider that over more than one term. On Dublin City Council, for example, some political parties have majority female or, in some cases, all female members for this term. Due to the legislation, a male quota could have to be brought in by such a party to reach 40% because they have been so successful. However, to embed knowledge and capacity, we need to do it over more than one term. We all know in politics that sometimes it is only in one's second term that one has the experience. At least, that is what I will tell voters at the next election.

I have two questions. On the UBI pilot, we have had some success with the scheme for artists. How far can we go with that? Is the Minister considering that as the pilot that is mentioned in the programme for Government. The second one was mentioned by Disabled Women Ireland. It concerns remote working legislation and the issue of reasonable accommodation by the employer. There was a suggestion that this legislation is weaker than what is currently in place in the provision of reasonable accommodation. Has the Minister considered that? Disabled Women Ireland has said the standard for reasonable accommodation for equipment at home is lower than that in the workplace. There might be a discrepancy between the new legislation and existing legislation, resulting in a lower standard of accommodation which the employer has to provide. I do not expect the Minister to respond here, but he might come back to me on it.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I do not know about that. We will come back to the Deputy on that.

I take the Deputy's point on local elections. I had the pleasure to visit Chile in March as part of the St. Patrick's Day visits. An interesting thing they had there was a constitutional convention. The people decided to reject the new constitution but when they elected the assembly they had gender quotas. More women got elected so they had to bring in more men. It was nice to see that happen once anyway. Interestingly enough, and this is one reason perhaps men should be more open to gender quotas, it can work both ways. That is the point the Deputy is making. That is the first time I heard of it happening.

My uncle in India who died before I was born was the mayor of a town. I visited that town for the first time in 2019. I met the local council and out came an equal number of men and women. I thought that was great to see in this local government in this town in India. Then I found out they had gender quotas in that town in Maharashtra. I am not sure if it is across the state or across India. They have first past the post because many people are innumerate. They got around it by having each community electing one man and one woman. That was interesting, great to see and progressive in a less developed country than Ireland.

The artists' basic income is a really good programme. I am a big fan of the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin's work in this area. I was supportive of her in trying to get that programme over the line but I do not consider it a universal basic income pilot because it is not universal, by definition. It is only for artists. Universal has to mean everyone. The difficulty in doing a genuine pilot, and there is some interesting research I will publish on this soon, is that most pilots were discontinued or were not continued because, by definition, to have a universal basic income there would have to be winners and losers.

We could not afford a universal basic income that made everyone better off. There would have to be winners and losers. The general thinking is that we could have a universal basic income that is very low. That is affordable but would mean substantial cuts in income for a lot of people, particularly people who are currently on social welfare or we could have a universal basic income that is decent but then one would have to have very high taxes on all earned income. It would also be hard to see who one would get to participate in a pilot scheme that would almost certainly make them worse off. That is one of the difficulties. There is a big piece of research, which I will publish soon, on all of the pilots that were done on this.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The Minister could get all of the Deputies to participate, and maybe he could force them.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It would be interesting to see if they would. Of course if people volunteer to participate in a pilot scheme then it is not a genuine one. A pilot scheme must use a random sample in order to be real.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Did the Minister say he is walking back from the commitment in the programme for Government to conduct a pilot scheme?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

No, I am not. What I am going to do is publish the interesting research. It is lays out the pros and cons not just of doing it as a policy, which no country has done, but also the problems with all of the pilot schemes that have been done around the world, which have largely failed for lots of different reasons.

Where the initiative can work is if a country has massive oil or mineral wealth so the government can take the money generated and give everyone a slice of it. In a country like Ireland where our wealth is derived from labour ,we could only do this by having winners and losers. It is very hard to see how a pilot scheme could be constructed where people, if randomly selected, agreed to participate in a pilot scheme that would definitely make them worse off but maybe they would.

Chairman

Recommendation No. 15 states: "Take account of gender equality issues in piloting a Universal Basic Income scheme." We look forward to the research that the Minister has described and said he will publish shortly.

.

Deputy Leo Varadkar: I have to bring the research to Government before it gets published. The thing that will be published in October is the report by the high-level working group on collective bargaining. A few people want to mull over the research on a universal basic income before it is published.

Chairman

I have two specific questions on matters that we have not considered sufficiently and two Deputies wish to ask some questions, as part of the second round, after which I suggest we finish.

Recommendation No. 36 states:" Introduce a statutory right to reasonable access to flexible working." The citizens' assembly was very clear that it wanted to see a statutory right to reasonable access to flexible working. Last week, the committee heard ICTU criticise that the Government's legislation as insufficiently broad since it simply talks about remote working. Can the legislation be expanded to cover more forms of flexible working?

I wish to ask another question concerning an issue raised by ICTU last week on the EU work-life balance directive has a narrow focus as the categories it describes are carers and parents of children up to the age of eight. Again, ICTU requested that provision is expanded as part of the legislative approach to flexible working. I ask the Minister to comment after Deputies Clarke and Cronin ask their questions.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

As the Chairperson mentioned, ICTU recently spoke to us about the understaffing issue in the WRC and mentioned details about some of the substantive WRC investigations that have resulted in more than €19.5 million in withheld or stolen wages being returned to workers. Can the Minister clarify whether additional resources will be provided to the WRC following the funding announced in the budget earlier this week? As his tenure is due to end and he will return to the post of Taoiseach, can he outline a reasonable timeframe for a referendum to take place on gender equality?

Chairman

We sought one next year.

Deputy Réada Cronin

In his opening statement, the Minister acknowledged that collective bargaining is an important element for ensuring stable industrial relations in Ireland. Under the EU directive, which we discussed last week with ICTU, member states that do not have enough collective bargaining are being obliged to ensure that there is. Deputy Bríd Smith mentioned two Bills that are going through the Houses. I would like the Minister to push them and to do so when he becomes Taoiseach. We discuss gender issues in a privileged situation here whereas most women outside these walls are trying to make ends meet and we can see how public services are so essential to making a working woman's life work. For example, during the bus scoile fiasco women have constantly told me that they would have to give up their work because they are getting in trouble with their bosses for being late to work because buses did not turn up and their children had not been collected. Women have told me how such situations have an impact on their working lives. The State, if it wants women working, must ensure that public services function in a satisfactory way.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The Deputy has made a valid point.

The Chairperson asked about flexible working. As she will be aware, the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is bringing through the legislation for flexible working that is just for parents and carers and derives from an EU directive. I am trying to do legislation on remote working, which is a bit trickier as it is hard to get the balance right. The joint committee has compiled a good report on the topic and that gives me some guidance as to how I can take things forward.

Flexible working for parents and carers could be made available more broadly.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The intention, at the moment anyway, is to give the option to seek flexible working to parents and carers because they need it in a way that people who are not parents and carers do not. Sometimes rights need to be given to parents and carers that do not need to be given to people who are not parents and carers. We just need to bear that in mind too.

The WRC needs more staff. It got more staff and it is going to get more. There are 2.5 million people at work in Ireland, which is more than ever before, and, therefore, it is my logical view that we need more people working in the WRC and the Heath and Safety Authority. I cannot tell how many more staff yet. We do not have the Estimates agreed by the Oireachtas yet but when it is.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I suggest that the Minister pops that information in an email to us.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Yes, will do. In my experience, a realistic timeframe for a referendum is a year from the time the Government decides to do so.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

The Minister could quite easily recommend that happen.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

That is not a matter for me.

Chairman

It soon will be.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It is a matter for Government. There is a number of potential referendums on the list. As a Government we must decide which ones to do and how many we can do in any one day. We can do a lot but there are risks in holding four or five referendums on the one day. In my first speech after being elected Taoiseach in 2017, I said we would have a referendum on the eighth amendment within a year. I set the challenge for that to be done and it was done. A year is a reasonable timeframe for a referendum but approximately a year is needed to prepare the ground, make sure we are ready for any disinformation and prepare for the campaign.

Finally, all I can say about collective bargaining is that a report will be published in October. The high-level working group did a really good job and it has come up with a negotiated way forward that we could pursue. I would prefer to publish the report, allow enough time for people to digest it and perhaps talk about it again

Chairman

That concludes our public hearing. On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister for his constructive engagement with us and I thank his officials for attending. We will send him our interim report on constitutional change and, at the start of December, we will publish our final report on all 45 recommendations of the citizens' assembly. We will forward both to him in his role as Minister and his forthcoming role as Taoiseach. I propose that we suspend the meeting for a few moments and then resume in private session.

Sitting suspended at 10.49 a.m. and resumed in private session at 10.55 a.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.03 a.m. until 9.15 a.m. on Thursday, 6 October 2022.