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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 2017

Evaluating Orphan Drugs: Discussion (Resumed)

The purpose of this morning's meeting is to engage with the HSE and the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics, NCPE, regarding the processes involved in evaluating orphan drugs.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. John Hennessy, national director of primary care, and Mr. Shaun Flanagan, chief pharmacist at the corporate pharmaceutical unit, from the HSE and, from the NCPE, Professor Michael Barry and Dr. Lesley Tilson. I draw their attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise the witnesses that their opening statements may be published on the committee's website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Hennessy to make his opening statement.

Mr. John Hennessy

I thank the committee for its invitation to attend again on the subject of orphan drugs. If I understood the Chairman's letter correctly, today's focus is on the process for evaluating orphan drugs and the potential reasons for delays in reimbursing approved drugs. The process for evaluating applications was covered at some length at the July committee meeting, so I will not repeat the full detail other than to re-emphasise that the criteria for assessment are those outlined in the legislation, namely, section 19(4) of the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013. I have the criteria with me and can go through them later if members wish.

The important point to bear in mind is that the legislation requires the HSE to have regard to the cost effectiveness and clinical benefits of the product being applied for and does not make specific provision or permit a different rule set to be applied in the case of orphan drugs. Nevertheless, particular features that relate to orphan conditions are considered during the assessment process and factors such as the clinical effectiveness of the product and the number of potential patients affected are clearly set out in the reports compiled. Professor Barry will allude further to this matter in his opening statement.

In the case of approved medicines, the reasons for delay can be many, but they are mainly logistical - putting in place the conditions that may be attached to an approval - or they are financial, for instance, in the case of products that confer clinical benefits and are deemed to be cost effect but budgetary provision for whose approval does not exist in the service plan. As members will recall from our previous meeting, a delay between approval and reimbursement occurred in 2017 in the case of products for the treatment of cystic fibrosis, cancer, heart failure and a number of other conditions.

Delay can also occur where the clinical benefits demonstrated by the trial studies are marginal but the prices charged are substantial. Everyone will be familiar with examples of products being referred back for further negotiations on price. Companies are encouraged to submit their initial applications based on the end price, but experience has shown that further price adjustments can, and do, become available after decisions are taken and notified.

I trust that this information is of assistance. My colleagues and I will try to answer whatever questions the committee may have or provide any further information that may be required.

I thank Mr. Hennessy. I call on Professor Barry to make his opening remarks.

Professor Michael Barry

The first part of this document includes updates on some of the material that we presented on 6 June and considers developments elsewhere in Europe in terms of evaluations of medicines.

When we examine cost effectiveness, we consider the clinical outcome data that are available for the medication, including quality of life, and all relevant costs, including potential savings that a new treatment might afford, for example, through reducing hospitalisation. All of these factors are considered in our evaluation - it is not just about money. It is a standardised process and is in keeping with the guidelines set down by the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, which were updated in 2014 and are being updated again. That process will be completed in a few weeks' time.

The process is well established. It entails an initial rapid review, in which we examine a product, usually over two to four weeks, to decide whether it needs a full evaluation. If it does not, it is usually reimbursed without delay. If it does, we move on to a full assessment, which means that the manufacturer has to submit a dossier to us outlining the benefits and so on of the medication and proving that it is cost effective. Orphan drugs are assessed in the same way as other drugs, although we are mindful of the differences and challenges in terms of patient numbers and so on, which we can discuss later.

The health technology assessment, HTA, submission process includes a facility for patient groups to make contributions. This is a new feature. Approximately 40% of assessments in 2016 included patient submissions, which were helpful to us.

The final decision on the reimbursement on any drug is not ours. That rests with the HSE. We give our unbiased, transparent opinion on the value for money proposition related to the medicine. I have provided the committee with examples of medications for rare diseases that we have considered. The majority have been reimbursed. We have not reimbursed Vimzim for Morquio A syndrome or Translarna for Duchenne muscular dystrophy.

I will highlight the recent development in the form of the rare diseases medicinal products-technology review committee, which is a mouthful, in recognition that there are differences with drugs for rare diseases. This committee will probably have a role in managed entry, in the sense that there may be entry or exit criteria that one would apply for rare diseases drugs. I hope that this will improve matters in terms of access to drugs for rare diseases.

The document I have supplied highlights the issue in Europe and joint HTAs, such as the European network for Health Technology Assessment, EUnetHTA, which aims to co-ordinate HTAs across European countries. Another development is the BeNeLuxA initiative, which involves Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Austria. They are examining the prospect of undertaking combined HTAs. Recently, Belgium and the Netherlands undertook a joint HTA in respect of Orkambi, although it did not seem to improve access as such.

I will correct something in my submission. It reads: "As a result Orkambi is not reimbursed in either Belgium or the Netherlands today." That has just changed. The Netherlands will now make Orkambi available. It was factual at the time of writing. We have more than 300 citizens on Orkambi. All of this shows that we were not an outlier.

Under the Valletta declaration, Ministers from Cyprus, Greece, Italy, Malta, Portugal and Spain agreed to explore collaboration in this regard.

Ireland is also involved in that collaboration. Germany was mentioned in the invitation to this meeting. We must be clear that Germany remains the front-runner in Europe in terms of availability of new authorised medicines following market authorisation, but there is free pricing in the first year in Germany. Therefore a company will get immediate access and free pricing. That comes at a price. I think that has to be acknowledged. The vast majority of European countries will look for an assessment, following the market authorisation before the drug will be let into the market. That is a key point.

There was a very nice review last year, including 13 of the 14 countries from which we reference our drug prices and only two of them allow free entry. The other 13 countries have an assessment of the drug before it is let on to the market and the vast majority of cases relate to pricing. In contrast to Germany, reimbursement of medicines in many European countries including Ireland and other developed countries only occurs following a post marketing evaluation, which is what we do here.

I thank Professor Barry. We will take members in groups of three, so I ask the witnesses to make a note of the various questions that are submitted. We will take Deputies Louise O'Reilly, Margaret Murphy O'Mahony and Billy Kelleher.

I thank the witnesses for their evidence. I have a number of questions and I would imagine that none will shock or surprise the witnesses.

Following our engagement with Alpha One Foundation, specifically in respect of Respreeza, I have stated publicly that the families of the patients involved have been treated disgracefully. I would apportion blame equally to all involved in this. The patients and their families have been left in Limbo in a way that is actually quite cruel for them. They are in a situation whereby the drug they need is being provided on a compassionate basis. I do not think there is much compassion in global pharmaceuticals but that is the term that is used. On a compassionate basis that drug is available to them but they now do not have anyone to administer it, so they have the dual difficulty of the ticking time bomb, where compassionate access will run out and they know that but they also have a difficulty as to how it will be administered. That begs a broader question, which I will put to Mr. John Hennessy. In the situation that families or patients can by whatever means find the necessary funds to pay for the orphan drugs themselves, what is the involvement of the HSE regarding the administration of that drug? If a drug has been turned down for reimbursement for whatever reason, the HSE are making a statement that it will not have any involvement with it, but yet there are patients and their families who are really depending on these life saving and life altering drugs. What is the situation and could the witnesses comment specifically on the families that use Respreeza because I know they are going to be watching the committee proceedings? They have been let down on more than one occasion.

The broader questions are on the process of evaluation. Professor Barry alluded to this. The same process is used for orphan, ultra orphan and drugs such as Panadol. I am not a scientist but what strikes me is that there is a case to be made for orphan and ultra orphan drugs being assessed in a different way, the way they do in other countries and using a different assessment tool because clearly the numbers are not there. When we talk to families who are depending on these orphan drugs or the companies that are selling them, they will without exception tell us that the process that is used in this State is not appropriate for orphan drugs, or more specifically for ultra orphan drugs. The view of the witnesses on that issue would be very welcome.

Professor Barry alluded to the stakeholder involvement in the process. I have spoken to the stakeholders and it strikes me that they feel anything but involved. They feel very much excluded. The stakeholders are getting information from the media, information that is put into the public domain by the pharmaceutical companies. That is wholly unacceptable. Will Professor Barry provide more detail on his point of view as to how the stakeholders are accommodated? I do not purport to speak for them but I can repeat what they have said to me, which is that they feel anything but involved. They feel excluded.

With regard to Translarna, and I know that my colleague, Senator Conway-Walsh will want to speak on this as well, could Professor Barry outline briefly what is the difficulty with that drug in Ireland and if it is available in 22 other countries? When we discuss co-operation on an European level, there has to be some sort of standard. It strikes me as odd that a drug would meet the standards in one country but not in another, but a drug that meets the standard in 22 countries but does not meet our standard is strange. Will the witnesses outline that for us. I do not need to hear the areas where we have been leaders on this. We should focus on where we have been behind because we are clearly behind on this. I am aware that a High Court action is under way at present. I am sure that will give the witness the comfort of being able to say that he cannot say too much but I ask for an update on where that is at and when the outcome is going to be known. I know there may be a certain amount of estimation that has to go on because obviously it is the subject of proceedings. Will they give us an idea because families who are waiting are extremely anxious to know when they are likely to have an outcome. They are very disappointed that it had to come to this. The families concerned end up caught in the middle of this between the NCPE, the HSE on one side and the pharmaceutical companies on the other. There is a human story in the middle. For their sake the witnesses might be able to give us some idea when they see this matter coming to a conclusion.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the joint committee this morning. I concur with Deputy O'Reilly on the specific drug Respreeza. I too have a constituent whose life is on hold. She is going from month to month. The uncertainty of her future is really taking toll on her life. It is important for us all to remember that behind every case there is a person and a family. No monetary value can be put on that. It is important that remains in our mind the whole time. I would welcome comments on Respreeza.

The process of reimbursement for drugs seems broken. Do the witnesses agree with me? Ireland has become one of the worst countries in western Europe for speed of access to new medicines. Why has this happened? Other countries are clearly serving patients better. Professor Barry referred to a number of other countries and the differences in processing. At the same time, I feel we are being left behind.

The pricing of drugs is the same as 14 other countries but yet spending on pharmaceuticals in Ireland is significantly below the average, with Ireland spending 13% compared to the OECD average of 16%. Do the witnesses consider there is an issue for the Government to consider more funding for drugs?

I welcome the witnesses. I wish to make a few brief points on two issues that are very much to the fore at present. First, there is the new drug called Respreeza, which was developed by CSL Behring, and the reimbursement of same. There has been an extension to the compassionate programme. I hope that I have misread the situation because it is hard to believe that the HSE will not facilitate transfusions in that particular area. Perhaps the matter is for another forum. I would like to know why, in view of the fact that the compassionate programme has been extended by the company, that the HSE, at the very least, would not assist the patients with transfusions on the Respreeza side.

Second, Translarna is a medicine that has been referenced by previous speakers. We seem to have fallen way behind in assessing medicines and drugs and in how we handle the reimbursement process. The rare diseases national plan 2014 was launched by the Minister in July 2017 and it is a generic policy framework for rare diseases. The scope of the plan is broad as there are 8,000 rare diseases that affect millions of people. The document goes on.

(Interruptions).

Is it something I said? Is it a fire alarm?

I propose that we suspend the meeting briefly until we clarify the source of the sound.

Sitting suspended at 9.50 a.m. and resumed at 10.10 a.m.

We will resume. Does Deputy Kelleher want to rephrase his question?

I will continue along the same path. I was referring to the national rare diseases plan for Ireland, launched by the Minister in July 2014. The witnesses are aware of it. I tabled a parliamentary question recently which highlighted that quite a number of areas have not been fully implemented. These include recommendations Nos. 30 to 39, inclusive. Quite a number are in their infancy. Recommendation No. 33 is that the HSE develops a publicly available annual report documenting the use of existing and new to market orphan medicines and technologies in Ireland and a summary of applications received and decisions relating to those applications. This has not been commenced. Recommendation No. 38, that there be early dialogue between the HSE and the companies running clinical trials in Ireland with Irish patients where licence approval is imminent, has not been commenced. Recommendation No. 39, whereby sponsors could be offered an incentive to run trials in Ireland, increasing access to innovation for Irish patients, has not been commenced. Quite a number of areas in the rare diseases plan have not commenced. I ask the witnesses to comment on this.

With regard to how we assess and appraise drugs coming to market, the European Medicines Agency, EMA, makes approvals, as does the Health Products Regulatory Authority, HPRA, in this country. Sometimes there is an application for reimbursement, which goes through the entire process, including the National Centre For Pharmacoeconomics, NCPE and the HSE, and when it is all said and done, it still seems to end up going to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, if I am correct. It then goes to the Government and sometimes back to the Dáil where political pressure is exerted and we have a situation where advocacy groups are campaigning outside the Dáil gates. Is there a better way for us to do our business in terms of how we assess the impact a drug would have and its cost-effectiveness, and take it from a situation where people feel they are almost playing God in terms of political decisions having to be made and pressure being exerted? It is extremely distasteful, to be truthful, that we have this type of continual toing and froing, where Ministers go to the Government to try to get money to secure a drug but it is not made available and then pressure comes on, or vice versa, as sometimes Ministers try to get approval for something that has not been approved through the process. I will take Translarna as an example, although there are many other drugs. It is hardly the case that all of the other countries in Europe are wrong. Why are we the outlier so many times when it comes to reimbursement for drugs? Many First World countries with very advanced technologies for the assessment of drugs and their impact, with quality First World health services, can approve drugs. Equally, even in the European context, countries with huge budget deficits, which are far worse off economically than ourselves, are able to approve these drugs. Why are we the outlier so often when it comes to the reimbursement for drugs?

To follow on from a point made by Deputy Kelleher, the rare diseases plan runs from 2014 to 2018 so we are very far into it. It strikes me that very little has been done. Will the witnesses give an indication as to whether they feel all of this work will be completed by the end of the plan? That is what people want to know. The witnesses might give us an idea of what will not be achieved and what will be achieved by the end date, given that we are very far into the plan.

Mr. John Hennessy

I will try to address the points made earlier on Respreeza and Alpha-1 patients. I appreciate the difficulty these patients find themselves in at present, but the fact remains the application for the reimbursement of Respreeza did not pass the effectiveness tests we have in place. It was considered that the health technology assessment process and the expert group reviewed the evidence. What was demonstrated were marginal clinical improvements but coming at a very high price. At the end of the process, the decision was that it was not cost-effective and the decision was not to reimburse. That does not mean treatment is not available for these patients. Of course there is conventional treatment available at all times.

On the compassionate access situation, to be clear on this, the HSE was not involved in establishing the clinical trials or the compassionate access program and cannot become involved in it now without drifting into a contradictory position of declining the application for reimbursement and then becoming involved in the administration of it. However, we do feel those involved in the trials and the compassionate access programme have a duty of care to those patients and have a duty to manage those patients properly and appropriately. We do not accept that making deadlines and setting new deadlines repeatedly is helpful in the process. We would like to meet the company to discuss its approach on the management of those patients in particular. I do not accept it is a cost issue. It is a substantial multinational company. There are and have been arrangements in place for the provision of this treatment for those compassionate access patients for many years, and we will call on it to continue this, at least until we have a chance to discuss its arrangements for the orderly and appropriate management of those patients. A meeting has been arranged, which is scheduled to happen next week. It might have been out there that it was to be on 13 November, but it is the week commencing 13 November. I hope to be able to make further comment at that stage and understand better what the company's arrangements are for those compassionate access patients.

Professor Michael Barry

Quite a number of other questions were asked. I will start with Translarna, also known as ataluren, for Duchenne muscular dystrophy, and the concept we are behind and an outlier. That is not what the evidence shows. The FDA, which authorises medications in the United States, concluded only two weeks ago that additional clinical trial data will be necessary at a minimum to indicate that the drug is effective in treating Duchenne muscular dystrophy. This is not us saying it, it is the FDA.

In the European Union, the European Medicines Agency, EMA, has granted conditional authorisation. The condition is that the company needs to carry out a further 18 month trial to demonstrate the efficacy of the drug. Those two stances illustrate the issue. As Mr. Hennessy said, it is not always about price as very often when we say no, it is because of the clinical data. The FDA was very clear that the clinical data in this case are not good enough and I agree with that assessment.

I do not know where Deputy O'Reilly's information in regard to the 22 European countries comes from but my information is that, as of last week, Translarna is not being reimbursed in Austria, Belgium, Finland, Norway, Portugal, Poland or Slovakia, there have been no applications for it in Croatia or Scotland, and it is currently being assessed in the Netherlands. Taking all that into consideration, I do not see us as being an outlier at all, and the evidence we have does not support that statement.

As regards the assessment of orphan drugs-----

All members have done some research on the issue. Is it correct that there are young children on the drug in the countries the witness listed where conditional access has been granted?

Professor Michael Barry

My question in regard to those countries was very clearly as to whether the drug is reimbursed in their public system and the answer was "No" for all of the countries I named. That is the information I have. I am not sure where the other information comes from but that is what we are-----

Let us take Britain as an example. In England and Northern Ireland the drug is being reimbursed. Is that being done on a conditional basis or otherwise?

Professor Michael Barry

It is on managed access. However, it is possible that Britain made a mistake in that regard. If the FDA does not believe the drug works very well and it needs more data-----

The families of the kids who are waiting to hear about the availability of this drug are very anxious and are watching these proceedings. They do not believe a mistake was made but, rather, a certain amount of compassion was shown. With regard to most of the countries where it is available or the countries the witness listed where it is not available in any form, conditional or otherwise, is he specifically saying it is not reimbursed in the mainstream way through the public health system? He can take any of the countries named as an example. Is it available in those countries and reimbursed on a conditional basis or otherwise or is it simply not available under the public system?

Professor Michael Barry

It is not reimbursed under the public system. I cannot say for definite if one or two people are getting it in one of those countries. My understanding is that the public system has decided not to reimburse the drug.

I suspect Professor Barry is playing with words because I think it is available to people via the public system but we can agree to differ on that.

Professor Michael Barry

Sure.

As regards the Irish system, the witness knows the families are very anxious to know what will happen. There is a court case in progress and perhaps the witness will address that at a later stage.

Professor Michael Barry

We either want to assess products and ensure we are getting value for money or we do not. If we do not assess drugs, we will pay the asking price for them. I believe that when we are using taxpayers' money, we should be looking for value and should assess the medications. That is my personal view. It was a very prominent statement from the FDA in the United States to clarify it did not believe this drug worked very well and would not authorise it.

Dr. Lesley Tilson

I think the Deputy may be referring to the situation in Scotland, where their health technology assessment, HTA, body did not recommend Translarna but made some individual funding arrangements for patients. That was outside of the HTA process there.

Professor Michael Barry

As regards the assessment of orphan drugs, in some cases there is a challenge in respect of submitting data to demonstrate their cost-effectiveness because of patient numbers. That is particularly so for ultra-orphan drugs. As regards Orkambi, the manufacturer submitted a very good dossier and was able to put forward a case for cost-effectiveness even though we said "No". Mindful of that and in the context of the rare diseases plan, the rare diseases medicinal products technology review committee is being set up. It can be quite complex in the sense that possibly 10% or 15% of people in a particular cohort will respond to the drug. The new committee will be of benefit in that regard as it may be able to devise managed access for patients who respond to the drug and ensure they get access to the drug. That is a reasonable response to the current situation and very similar to what we do for cancer drugs. The national cancer control programme technology review group provides its opinion on top of the data we send to the HSE drugs group. The rare diseases medicinal products technology review committee is modelled on that and may go a little further.

We are getting better at facilitating stakeholder involvement and we need to continue that. Some 40% of the HTAs we looked at in 2016 included stakeholder engagement and we have been working with groups such as the Irish Platform for Patient Organisations, Science and Industry, IPOSI. We have been working with IPOSI to provide patient groups with more information in respect of the HTA process and that is ongoing and educational. We are very grateful for its collaboration in that regard.

Deputy Murphy O'Mahony asked if the process is broken. I do not believe it is. It is a fair, open, transparent and rigorous assessment. It is unquestionably rigorous. We are lucky to have an expert team who are able to go through all the clinical and economic data. In terms of what transpires from the process, when we make a negative recommendation, it does not finish there, but rather goes to the HSE to negotiate a better price with the pharmaceutical industry. Everyone wins with that because we are now obtaining discounts in the order of 30% to 50% for products. If we said we had no problem taking the asking price, for 2016 that would have added €1 billion over five years. That we can enable the HSE, using our data, to obtain such discounts is a good thing because the money saved can go to other aspects of health care. It does not tell me the system is broken, but rather that the prices being asked for by the pharmaceutical industry in many cases are completely over the top.

Would Mr. Hennessy like to come in?

Mr. John Hennessy

Professor Barry has addressed stakeholder involvement. We have taken that point on board and there is work ongoing in the background to strengthen that.

Deputy Murphy O'Mahony asked if there is a funding issue and whether we need more funding. Everybody would say yes to more funding. However, no matter how many resources are available, most people would accept that new products still have to pass an effectiveness test. There will always be competing demands for health care resources for well-proven and established treatments. Members know those demands as well as I do, and they include measures such as home care packages, hip replacements and scoliosis surgery. I could go on with that list. There are endless demands on funding and resources always have to be prioritised on the basis of proven technologies.

Where the evidence is good in respect of new products and medicines in terms of clinical benefits, our track record is very good on getting those approved and reimbursed. Where the evidence is not as solid or established and prices are very high, a product or medicine will have a more difficult passage.

Deputy Kelleher mentioned the rare diseases plan and I am aware there is a steering group in place between the Health Service Executive, HSE, and the Department of Health to implement the recommendations. There is a clinical lead in place. I might arrange a more full report or update on the implementation of the rare diseases plan to the committee at a later stage if that is okay.

Professor Barry stated the Food and Drug Administration, FDA, did not approve Translarna. Are we looking at the FDA or the European Medicines Agency, EMA? What is the view of the European Medicines Agency of Translarna?

Professor Michael Barry

The European Medicines Agency had concerns and it granted conditional approval, subject to the fact that the company was to carry out a further clinical trial to demonstrate the benefit of the product.

Why would one look to the FDA rather than the EMA?

Professor Michael Barry

The point I am trying to make is this highlights that there is uncertainty around the clinical evidence of this drug. That is exactly what we found when we looked at the data. It is not that we are saying products do not totally work but rather that perhaps they do not work well enough. Maybe they do not bear any relation to the price being asked for them, which can be as high as €400,000 per patient per year. That is the issue.

I have something that specifically relates-----

We have others who are yet to contribute.

I understand that. This relates to a question I asked.

The Deputy may ask a supplementary question later. I must allow other members to contribute. I have another question. What is the manner of engagement with patient groups because such groups feel they are not being engaged with in a meaningful manner? What about representative organisations and specialists in the field where the drug applies, who feel they are not being engaged in a meaningful manner? What is the manner of engagement?

Professor Michael Barry

The manner of engagement currently is that anyone can submit their opinion when the technology assessment is going on. I agree this can be done better, and that is where I see the new committee's role. It will ensure people are engaged with and its constituents will include all the stakeholders suggested by the Chairman. There is no question that it could be done better.

Is there engagement where people are spoken to across a table?

Professor Michael Barry

Mr. Hennessy and I have spoken to many patient groups. From our perspective, the earlier this happens, the better during the process. That is what we envisage with the new committee.

I thank the witnesses for the presentations. On the previous occasion I had a concern, which I raised at the September meeting, about the matter being revisited. The figures being given to me are to the effect that there are approximately 148 orphan drugs, with 133 approved and used in Germany. We are using either 53 or 55 and other countries around Europe seem to be way ahead of us in using new drugs. That is the reason I suggested in September that we revisit this. There is also the matter of the delay in the process. I have a note from one company, which made a submission in March 2015. It went through the process, and there was a decision in June 2017 that the drug would not be reimbursed. It filed an appeal and advised that the subject would be considered at a meeting of 14 September. As of today, the company is still not clear what has happened and has had no response. I got that from BioMarin about a specific drug. The case has been ongoing since March 2015, we are now in November 2017, and there has been no conclusion on whether the application is in or out. An initial decision was taken but the company filed an appeal against it.

The second matter is that we seem to be lumping orphan drugs into the same type of process as any other drugs that would be commonly used. We are talking about a very small cohort. There are some drugs that might only be available or suitable for approximately ten people in the country. I know it is a very difficult process but the argument has been put forward to me. I have dealt with rare diseases for quite a number of years. Last week I had representatives of a group of sufferers of epidermolysis bullosa into Leinster House. It is a genetic skin disorder and skin keeps peeling from people's bodies. There is no medication for it. I am fairly familiar with the rare diseases area. This is about orphan drugs being put through the same kind of process as drugs that would be commonly used. This seems to be a big concern of people involved in the rare diseases area.

Have we looked at how other jurisdictions process this? We have raised the German system and there is the question of how the German system operates. It allows the drug and there is a price negotiation process thereafter. I accept it would be quite difficult for us to implement that kind of system. I know we are talking about working with other countries to negotiate with drug companies. Our process seems to be extremely slow. Representatives of one company told me a drug has been accepted by the European Medicines Agency but it has had to file 300 or 400 pages of documents to support the application. I do not understand why we need to go through that kind of a complicated process.

There are cases where a drug is being used with the support of the drug company but we are told it will not get approval under the drugs refund scheme. Do we need to set up a mechanism to deal with the people who have now become reliant on that drug? In many cases they have been on the drug for anything up to 18 months, two years or even two and a half years while the process has gone on. Suddenly, they are told by the pharmaceutical company that it is no longer prepared to cover the cost and it will not be covered by the drugs refund scheme. Do we need to set up a process to deal with that? I have received numerous letters over recent weeks from people who are concerned about this. They are on medication but do not know what will happen from now on. Have we considered that? Orphan drugs are different from drugs used by wider numbers of people. Is there a need for a specific budget?

We use quality adjusted life years in the cost assessment. Should we consider using a different system when we deal with orphan drugs? I am not convinced that we are approaching our assessment correctly. It concerns a very small group of people in many different areas but we appear to be applying the same set of rules, and I do not know if that is appropriate in the area of orphan drugs.

To move away from the area of orphan drugs, I have a question that Mr. Flanagan might answer. If Mr. Flanagan was in the role then, he might remember that in 2013 Aspen Pharma significantly increased the price of several drugs. My understanding is that it was almost holding the HSE to ransom. There were long established drugs that would have to have been off patent then, including Purinethol, the cost of which went from €17.88 to €65. My understanding is that Aspen told the HSE it was increasing the price and if the HSE did not pay it, there would be no supply and the HSE paid up. This cost the HSE in the region of €200,000 annually. The year 2013 is some time ago, but what has the HSE done since then to prevent something similar happening again? I understand that only small quantities of Purinethol would be used in Ireland relative to more standard drugs. My concerns follow on from this.

When these drugs were in development stage, they would have had a nine year patent and would have had the benefits of high costs in their early years to pay for the research and development involved in them. They then go off patent or become a regular medicine, but a company can go in a full circle, come back to the HSE and charge a huge increase. What has the State done since 2013 regarding such drugs to prevent this happening again? I have a list of them before me which I can provide to the witnesses, although they no doubt know them. Aspen is being investigated by the European Commission but that does not help if the same problem could arise next week.

Orphan drugs are a necessary evil. Medications such as Sildenafil can sometimes go on to become blockbuster drugs which provide significant benefits to society. The incremental cost effectiveness ratio is set at about €40,000 to €45,000 which, from my reading, seems a low threshold. Does the HSE plan to increase the incremental cost effectiveness ratio to a level of, for example, €100,000, or at least something more appropriate to the current situation?

One of the witnesses said in their opening statement - it may have been Professor Barry - that, ultimately, the final decision rests with the HSE. Who is that person in the HSE? My understanding is that the witnesses' area is well-resourced with highly qualified people to go through the processes. Why would we have the witnesses, who are a group of highly qualified people, go through this process and evaluate the data and information, but then hand it over to someone else? Is that person to whom the reports are given super qualified? What is their special power that makes them capable of overturning the decision of the people here based on their qualifications to do the job? I am concerned about the process. From my reading, the people here could go through the whole process and support a drug which might solve a particular issue, but then this secret person in the HSE can reverse the decision, or say "Yes" as the case may be. Will the witnesses elaborate on this? The members of this committee have a duty to make sure that the witnesses before us are able to do their job properly.

There was a reference to Germany in an earlier question. The witnesses said that there is free access and free pricing in the first year in Germany, but what happens then? Do the witnesses have any information about what happens after the first year when everyone gets anything for any price at all? Is it the case that people are hooked on it, but what do they do after the first year? Do they cut off supply of 50% of these drugs to which there has been free access in the first year? Does it usually continue as it is? It must generate endless bills.

Will the witnesses outline what they need from us to get the best value for money for people in Ireland? It is a very emotive area because the situation is impossible in cases where patients might be offered another couple of years or months at a massive cost. I am very concerned that it would be a case that those who shout the loudest get the most, with the provision of certain drugs being improved because of calls to "Liveline". I am not comfortable with business being done in that way. What can we do to streamline this issue and ensure that people have equal access to treatment, rather than treatment being provided to those with the strongest lobby group or because they have the saddest story?

I support the view expressed by my colleague. We are all concerned that patients in this country have ready access to the best medicine as quickly as possible in line with best international standards. An evaluation has taken place in Europe, which has been undertaken recently in the case of Translarna and a number of other contentious drugs, and I do not know if the same process needs to be undertaken here unless the European evaluation is regarded as being insufficient, a lower standard, not having due regard to the health and safety of patients or something like that.

I seek clarification regarding the Food and Drug Administration in the US. What are the competing drugs in the US market about which the FDA has been concerned? We know that the marketplace can be protective of products from time to time. What are the competing drugs and does it have any impact on FDA decisions in the US?

I am concerned about the lack of evidence from Europe, and whether the drugs in question may be unsuitable or unsafe. Safety is important. The other issues were dealt with by my colleague earlier. The drug is safe or it is not, and I do not think that we need to test it again. It should be obvious that we accept European standards or we do not. If we do not, then we should bring a case to Europe and explain why.

It is a very emotive issue for patients and their families. I fully appreciate the reservations that exist on costs.

I will come to those in a moment, but, from the point of view of the well-being and welfare of the patient and for his or her peace of mind, it is very difficult to explain to a patient and his or her family why a particular drug is not being made available to him or her if it is made available in other jurisdictions. If we have a different set of standards for the examination of drugs, we should tell that to patients.

My understanding is that various drug companies have already offered to talk with the HSE about the cost on a confidential basis. Is that true? If that were the case and given that there is conditional approval, I can see no reason that cannot be done, without commitment to anything else. It would resolve the problem for patients who are distressed at present because of the situation that is ongoing. It would not affect their health because the drugs have already been given conditional approval. Without going into too much detail, what are the conditions of the approval? I presume it is generally based on health and safety grounds and side effects.

I wish to emphasise the point about the duplication of evaluations. There is no case at all for that today. We either have standards that are acceptable at European level or we do not. If we want to have a super standard, in deference to my colleague, then let us set it up and put ourselves on a pedestal above and beyond everybody else but do not let us play around with it. Apart from being an emotive issue, this is a serious issue from the point of view of patients. Depriving them of what they see as being available in other jurisdictions without any difficulty is one they look to us to raise with the experts to see what can be done.

I accept a court case is ongoing and so not much can be said about it at this stage but there can be negotiations off stage, notwithstanding the court case, that could have an impact of a beneficial nature in the interim without any commitment to the future. Could I ask if that could be done in this situation and whether it will be done?

I thank Deputy Durkan. I invite Mr. Hennessy to lead off in replying to the questions.

Mr. John Hennessy

I will start and I will rely on my colleagues to chip in on particular issues. I will start with the questions asked by Senator Colm Burke. I will ask Professor Barry to comment further on the question on the German system.

If I understood the question on a specific drug, the particular product to which the Senator referred has been in process for some time but notifications are due to issue to the company in the coming weeks as it is coming to the end of its assessment process. More information will be available on it in the next week or so.

The third question related to orphan drugs and the process involved. Deputy O'Connell mentioned that as well in terms of what the committee can do. The issue for us is that the legislation that is in place, which guides our approach at the moment is the 2013 Act, and it does not make separate provision for orphan conditions but obviously there are features that apply to orphan situations that need to be taken into account. It is perhaps an area the committee might wish to consider from a policy and even a legislative point of view.

The point about compassionate access is a good one. The Helsinki protocol is in place for patients on clinical trials and compassionate access. In fairness, when the trials conclude, most pharmaceutical companies manage the patients that are on those programmes very well. When companies say they are closing down a trial or compassionate access, most companies mean they are not taking on new patients but they manage the existing patients in a responsible manner. Obviously some companies take a different approach and wish to conclude their compassionate access programmes. That is something of which we do not approve in terms of the manner in which that is done. Conversations are ongoing with a number of companies in that regard as well. The Helsinki protocol does set out very clearly the arrangements to be put in place at the outset for the management of patients at the end of trials.

It is my understanding that 20 people are on the Alpha-1 drug and they are now being advised that it will not get approval. What happens to those 20 people now?

Mr. John Hennessy

The protocol puts the onus on the people who are involved in setting up the trial and programme.

The protocol is not there at the moment. As I understand it, there is no obligation on the drug company to continue providing the drug. Am I correct?

Mr. John Hennessy

There may not be a legal obligation but there is certainly a very ethical and moral responsibility to those patients and we want to have those conversations with the companies involved.

The problem is that they are looking for clarity at this stage. They want to know between now and Christmas whether they are going to find out on the news or in the newspaper if they will continue to have the drug available to them the following day, week or month. They are now in that dilemma. That is the difficulty we have to deal with as public representatives because people are getting in contact with us every day. They are in an insecure situation and no clarification is forthcoming from anyone. That is the issue that must be clarified.

Mr. John Hennessy

We did clarify it earlier. First, we appreciate the difficulty those patients are in but we do not accept that it is appropriate for a company to make a unilateral decision to discontinue a programme like that and merely assume that is the responsibility of the HSE to step in.

What happens if they discontinue a programme?

Mr. John Hennessy

That is something that we need to discuss with them. There is a meeting next week to do precisely that.

Can we get a decision on that matter because there are 20 people on the drug who now do not know what the situation will be in December?

Mr. John Hennessy

A decision is already taken and that has not changed. As I mentioned earlier, the application was made for the reimbursement of this product. It went through the assessment process and it did not pass the required effectiveness test.

Yes, but the problem is that 20 people do not know where they stand at present.

Mr. John Hennessy

That is correct. That is a conversation that they and we need to have with the company to establish what its intention is towards that group of patients.

Can we take it from today that there will be some clarification furnished to them within seven to ten days so that they know where they stand?

Mr. John Hennessy

Yes, I would hope so. The purpose of our meeting with the company is to establish what its intentions are towards that group of patients. As I mentioned, there is a pretty well established protocol for the management of patients at the end of clinical trials and access programmes and we will be calling on that company to adhere to those protocols.

I wish to ask for clarification on that issue. Is anyone at the moment on a programme that for whatever reason has not received full endorsement where the HSE is administering the drug? The difficulty that arises for those people is who is going to administer the drug. Is anyone at the moment having the drug administered by the HSE even though it is not necessarily being fully refunded? Would that happen?

Mr. John Hennessy

We do not have specific detail on the patients involved. We have not been involved with that patient group. It has been managed by the company.

No, I am asking about patients who are separate to that and whether there is a scenario in the HSE whereby people are on a drug but the HSE is not administering it so there is no protocol that exists other than the one for the management of people at the end of clinical trials.

Mr. John Hennessy

Not that I am aware of.

Deputy O'Connell and I have to go to another meeting and we would appreciate it if the questions we raised could be answered in writing.

Or we can look back on the Official Report.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I am not sure whether we can answer the specific question but in terms of clinical trials, where a clinical trial is being administered in a HSE setting, HSE staff would be administering a clinical trial drug, when it has had ethical approval and all that type of stuff in hospitals.

However, when a medicine is not reimbursed, we would not have data on that. If it is not reimbursed, it is not reimbursed.

The HSE would have no involvement in the administration of it? Is Mr. Flanagan certain of that?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We are as certain as we can possibly be. There are not electronic administration systems down to every individual hospital whereby we can press a button and find that out. I cannot be absolutely certain.

We are going to have to move on. There were some other questions. Perhaps Mr. Flanagan would like to go through those.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Deputy O'Connell has left. She asked about increases in the price of aspirin. This relates to medicines that were previously owned by a major pharmaceutical company and that were sold on to Aspen in 2010 or 2011. In 2011 or 2012, Aspen commenced a process whereby it came to a wide range of European authorities and demanded or sought price increases to maintain supplies of the products in the market. These are not orphan drugs, so I have not prepared for this question. However, from memory, the company approached the HSE in early 2012. We refused the price increase on at least two occasions. Eventually, we arrived at a scenario around December 2012, where, from memory, the paper record was that the company had said it would not be in a position to release any more stock into the Irish market unless a price increase was granted. It pointed to the fact that at least 12 authorities throughout Europe had granted price increases already.

We were left in a position where either we granted a price increase to maintain access to the medicines or we did not. A judgment had to be made as to whether it was reasonable to expend €200,000 to maintain access. A judgment was made that in the context of what we were faced with it was not reasonable to pay the sum of €200,000 but we had no other choice. As Deputy O'Connell stated, Aspen's activities across Europe are now the subject of an inquiry by the Directorate General for Competition, or DG Competition. The HSE is assisting DG Competition in the context of that, as are many other repricing and reimbursement authorities across Europe.

Price increases do not happen that frequently. Over the past decade, there have probably been between 3,000 and 4,000 price reductions. We have had fewer than 50 price increases over that period and some of these were reversals of previous reductions in circumstances where those reductions may have gone too far and where there were concerns about continuity in the market.

Regarding what we have done to prevent it, there has been useful activity by some of the competition authorities across Europe. In particular, the UK fined another pharmaceutical company for similar activities. The findings in that case affected corporate governance and directors, and what the latter have to sign. If someone comes to us for a price increase, we now require two directors to indemnify or sign, confirm that the documentation put forward is accurate and complete, and provide as much of a business case as possible. That has seemed to help a bit because, as a result of the activities of the UK Competition and Markets Authority, directors are reluctant to sign those confirmations.

The Institute for Clinical and Economic Review, ICER, was referred to. I am not an expert in economics, but there is a whole science around what the cost per quality adjusted life year, QALY, might be. In theory, as I understand the matter, it breaks down to two forms; what one's willingness to pay is; or what is the actual cost per QALY of the average health intervention with which one is comparing it. If we take a view that every health intervention comes with a sum of roughly €25,000 or €30,000 per QALY and if we introduce something into the system that is above that level, we reduce our efficiency. If we then introduce something that is below that level, we increase our efficiency and use resources better.

The issue regarding the ICER relates to how inefficient we are willing to be. In other words, how many opportunity costs elsewhere in the system we are willing to accept in the context of the introduction of a new medicine, technology, service or whatever. That is fundamentally an ethical and a policy-level discussion. We operate within the parameters that the Oireachtas has given us, which is the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013. We operate within the parameters of an ICER of €45,000 per QALY, which some policy-level Departments suggest should be lower. We try to then match the various criteria in the Act, which include the clinical need for the item. We end up with a scenario where Professor Barry is asked by the HSE to make a judgment at €45,000 per QALY and at €20,000 per QALY as to whether something is cost-effective. That does not mean that those are always the decision points that the HSE uses. Clearly, there is no way Orkambi could have been reimbursed on that basis, because it does come not within a yard of that type of ICER score.

The HSE tries to weigh up all of the criteria that the Oireachtas set out in the legislation, which include: effectiveness; efficiency; cost-effectiveness; alternative items; the budget impact; the level of resources available; and the certainty around the information. All these things are clearly laid out in the Act. We have to include all of those. The HSE tries to arrive at a judgment. It is very reluctant to go anywhere north of €100,000 per QALY, though on occasion it has done so. It is very happy to go well under €45,000 per QALY if it can. Professor Barry's process is about establishing if something is cost-effective at the price submitted.

Deputy Durkan asked if we engage in commercial negotiations. Yes, we do. A member also asked if we engage in confidential commercial negotiations. We do. The reality is this. I went back over the last 50 medicines that we have assessed. Without weighting the value of each individual medicine, the average reduction, arrived at by summing the reduction and dividing by the number of medicines, is 25%. We are doing our best to stretch the resources as far as we can to provide access to as many medicines as possible. If we increase the QALY threshold, we would get more access to more medicines, but we would also have to pay. The State would have to fund us more. That is the reality. Again, those are policy-level decisions. I am agnostic on that. I have a personal view, but it is a personal view. It is not for me to put out my personal views on that. The State could decide to set a QALY threshold of €100,000 per QALY. That would mean that more medicines would be approved. It would mean that the HSE would probably pay more for those medicines - one of the advantages of the threshold we have is that it gives us an opportunity to challenge the prices charged by pharmaceutical companies.

These are really difficult policy-level ethical issues. We do not have the answers on this side of the table. What we do is try to stretch our resources as far as possible in order to provide access to as many medicines as possible. What is the answer that everybody wants? Everybody wants to say yes to everything, even on this side of the table. However, we cannot say yes to everything with the resources available. That is the simple truth. Maybe we can say yes to more resources with softer decision thresholds, provided that does not introduce any perverse incentives in how the industry interacts with the system.

There was a question about who in the HSE makes the decision when it goes from the NCPE.

Mr. John Hennessy

I will take that one, and I might ask Professor Barry to speak to Deputy Durkan's point again about European standards, the FDA and consistency across jurisdictions. Deputy O'Connell inquired as to who in the leadership makes the decision. Essentially, what happens there is that the HTA reports go to the drugs committee, which reports to the leadership team of the HSE. A number of those reports are on the agenda for the HSE leadership team each month. As an indicator of the significance of the decisions that are involved, we are talking about multimillion euro expenditure and investment decisions, particularly over the five-year lifespan of most drugs and products that are considered.

Those applications come to the leadership team. They are considered in the context of all the other demands on the health care resources, such as hospitals, mental health services, social care, etc. The decisions taken are published as part of the HSE directorate minutes each month. My experience is that it is very unusual for the decision of the leadership team to be contrary to what was recommended by the drugs committee. In fact, I cannot remember any occasion when that has happened.

The process is pretty clear and transparent. The decisions taken are published each month as part of the leadership team papers.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I will clarify what Mr. Hennessy said. The drugs group recommendation is often quite different to the recommendation from the National Centre for Pharmoeconomics, NCPE, because commercial negotiations may have taken place. There is a step through the process and the drugs group has a mixed membership with 50% consisting of clinicians, senior clinical leaders within the HSE and a clinician from the hospital acute system, economists and various experts like that.

Mr. John Hennessy

Regarding price negotiations and confidentiality, our preference would be that it would not be done in that manner and that it would be more transparent and open as a public body. Obviously, companies feel that they have to operate in a price-confidential manner in the process and, as Mr. Flanagan said, those negotiations do become protracted on some occasions.

On that point, have drug price negotiations taken place with the company producing Translarna and are they still ongoing?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We cannot comment on that.

Okay. Deputy O'Connell also asked about free pricing in Germany and what happens after the year. How do they manage if the drug is not been found to be effective?

Professor Michael Barry

The situation in Germany was free pricing on arrival of post-marketing authorisation. It is followed by a negotiation at the end of the year. If those negotiations are not successful then it is referred on to their equivalent of our group. It is called the Institute for Quality and Efficiency in Health Care, IQWiQ. However, not many drugs find their way there because they do come to a settlement in relation to the price of the drug. In general, the access will continue for the vast majority of drugs.

A vote has been called in that Dáil. However I am going to remain in the Chair and we have some Senators who will remain so the meeting will continue. Some members may need to go.

I will remain here if I get an opportunity to get in.

We will bring Deputy Brassil in as soon as possible.

Can I just-----

Sorry Senator Burke, we do have a lot of speakers who have not got in yet.

I asked about the period from March 2015 where there is a decision still not made. It was in relation to BioMarin. They did an appeal-----

Can Senator Burke park that answer for the moment? We might go through the situation in Germany. We will suspend the questions of the Deputies who have left and bring in the questions of the those who have not spoken yet.

Professor Michael Barry

In Germany there is no question they have the best access and faster access than any other country in Europe because they offer the free pricing. Orphan drugs are reimbursed automatically. It is the point that we were making. They have better access but it costs and that is the issue that we have. In relation to those drugs that are free priced the vast majority of them continue to be reimbursed under the German system. The other issue which a number of speakers raised was the European Medicines Agency, EMA, and when they approve a drug. It is a very important question. The EMA looks at the safety and the effectiveness of a medication. It does not look at the aspects that we look at or that similar agencies around Europe look at, in other words relating the effectiveness to the cost and the value for money proposition. That is not for the EMA. It does not do that. That is why sometimes one can see a divergence between what the EMA is saying and what agencies like ours say. There is a fundamental difference there.

On BioMarin, it took us eight months to assess that. I know it took a number of years but we spent eight months on it. On average we spend six months on a drug for a full assessment.

There were some questions that we might just park for the moment because the Deputies who asked them have left relating to FDA and marketing policy in the US, different standards of assessment for orphan drugs, drug pricing negotiations which I think Professor Barry referred to and duplication of evaluations. We will leave those and bring in other members who have not had an opportunity to speak yet.

This is the final vote on the Water Services Bill.

I will continue.

Will the committee continue until we return?

Yes, absolutely.

I have to go as well unfortunately. Will the committee still be going in 15 minutes?

I am sure we will.

I will take 15 minutes and Deputy Gino Kenny will be well back.

Well, five minutes for the questions and ten minutes for the answers perhaps.

I have a series of short questions and I am confining them to Translarna. I need the answers to certain ones in order to be able to tease out some of the things that were being said. Is that okay?

Yes, if we are not happy we will interrupt.

On Translarna, I want to take it in three parts. First, I want to take it in relation to the FDA and what has been said so far. Then I want to take it on the cost specifically and on the data issue.

In terms of the FDA and the witnesses' reference to non-approval in the US, is it true that most orphan drugs that are put before the FDA are not approved in the first instance? Is it the case that almost all drugs fail in the first instance and then additional information is requested at that point? Could the witness tell us, and I am sure he will know these figures, in the last year how many drugs were approved by the FDA and how many were refused on the first submission? I refer to orphan drugs.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

My understanding is that the FDA is fairly inclined to say "Yes" to medicines. In relation to Translarna I know it was not its first look by the FDA. In fact, the actual current look by the FDA was an appeal by PTC Therapeutics against a previous refusal to accept an application.

So it is not true to say that most applications for orphan drugs through the FDA are refused in the first instance.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I think I would be pushing it to say that I was an authority on the FDA. We know what happened with Translarna because we always look at the evidence base to sense-check any decisions the HSE has made to ensure they sustain challenges around whether or not we are outliers. We are always looking at how other authorities have looked at decisions, particularly when we have made a decision and their decision comes afterwards.

I am just trying to get at how much weight the FDA carries in terms of our approval.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

The FDA carries no weight.

So it is not an automatic process for here.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

In talking about the FDA, all we are saying is it is an authoritative international body with a good strong reputation of assessment of medicines. It has come to a similar decision as the HSE. Did the HSE consider the FDA position in making its decision? Absolutely not. The HSE came to its own decision independently. Granted, when it is trying to defend a decision, the HSE will then point to decisions that other agencies have made. However, one is not using their decision process as a proxy for one's own.

Okay, that is fair enough. So really the EMA is the body that would carry more weight because obviously that is within Europe and we are all part of Europe. I just want to get at conditional approval. Is it not true to say that most orphan drugs that go through the EMA get conditional approval rather than full approval merely because they are new drugs that are being introduced and then the data that is used-----

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I have the data here.

There are actually 400 children across the EU on Translarna. Eighteen of the 22 countries with approval are within the EU.

Can the witness confirm that?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I cannot confirm how many Translarna patients there are across the EU. It is not data that I have to hand. I know the company would say that is what the position is, but I cannot absolutely stand over those figures. I can stand over the numbers for Ireland, but not for the EU.

The witness does not know how many children in the EU are using this drug.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

In our assessments we look at Ireland. We do not assess the amount of patients across Europe. We try to be aware of what decisions are made in other authorities to try and sense-check our own decisions, but not to use the decisions of other countries as proxies for our decision. The Oireachtas has made clear that the HSE has to come to a decision within the context of the Health Act.

I completely understand that, but we do not operate in a vacuum in terms of the EMA, and that has to be taken on board.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

The Senator asked specifically how many orphan drugs get conditional approval and how many do not. Senator Burke suggested that there were 158. There have been 158 orphan drug approvals over the years but 45 of those are technically no longer orphan drugs because once the patent is lost it is no longer classified as such. As of 6 November there are 113 public assessment reports on the EMA website on orphan drugs. Technically there are 113 orphan drugs left in Europe. Of those, 98 have had approvals, 11 have been refused by the EMA, and four have had withdrawn market authorisations. Of the 98, 14 of those market authorisations were approved on a conditional basis, 72 had full market authorisations and 12 were approved on an exceptional basis. Seventy six of the 98 orphan medicines have been approved on a conditional or exceptional basis by the EMA, but 72 of them have full market authorisation.

Do we approve orphan drugs on a conditional basis? Have we done that for any other drugs? I ask these questions in the context of the situation Lewis Harte-Walsh from Castlebar finds himself in. He was six last Thursday and he desperately needs Translarna so that he can continue to walk. We are talking about two boys in the whole of the State who need this drug now. We need to bear that in mind in the decision-making process. Is it not possible to grant conditional approval for Translarna on that basis and then use the additional data that would become available either to accept or reject?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

It is very hard to answer a question which the HSE is required to answer on an objective basis in a subjective way, which is basically what the Senator is asking me to do. From this side of the table, we would love to be able to provide access to every medicine. We do not like saying no. I personally hate saying no, but that is how it is. We are required to arrive objectively at a decision on every medicine. The Oireachtas has put in place legislation which requires us to arrive objectively at decisions, using the criteria in that legislation. The HSE did that with Translarna. I accept that people do not like the decision. I accept that other people may feel that the decision is wrong, but the HSE has done its best to arrive at an honest decision in the context of the Health Act.

Perhaps we can examine how the decision was made, because I know it was rejected on the grounds of cost and of data. On the cost that has been quoted, as opposed to the real cost, I want to know how much negotiation was done with the drug company to come to an agreement on a reasonable price. I understand the figure quoted by Professor Barry is based on a ten year old boy because Translarna is subject to the weight of the child. For someone like Lewis, who is six years old and whose weight is different, the cost of that is immediately reduced. What negotiations have taken place on price? Did the drug company name a price? Did the witness go back to it? How many times did he go back to the drug company to get that price reduced?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I cannot talk specifically about the price. It is not that I do not want to, but the company has made it clear to us, in all of our engagements, that we are not authorised to release the price. I can talk about what the budget impact would be to provide access to the patients who qualify over five years. The budget impact would be in excess of €3 million. That is the type of money we are talking about.

I have one supplementary question. Have any orphan drugs been authorised in Ireland on a conditional basis?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Conditional means different things, depending on the context. In the EMA it means conditional on new studies. Within the Health Act the HSE is entitled to put conditions on reimbursement with the aim of------

Can the witness speak about the EMA context?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

In the EMA 14 medicines have received market approval.

What is the situation in Ireland?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

If we are talking about reimbursement, conditional means something different. The HSE is entitled to put conditions around reimbursement if it believes that it is in the interests of patient safety or if it will improve cost effectiveness, maximising the appropriate use of an item or appropriately applying the resources available to it. There are conditions around how some cystic fibrosis medicines are reimbursed. People have to have the specific genetic mutations-----

The witness said that the EMA-----

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We are responsible for reimbursement. The EMA does not look at that issue. It looks at quality, safety and efficacy. It does not have to look at value for money. We are responsible for medicines that have EMA authorisations and consider the costs in the context of the Health Act, which requires us to look at cost effectiveness, value for money and the resources available to us.

Mr. John Hennessy

I want to caution about going too far down the road, as we are doing on this particular case. I fully appreciate Senator Conway-Walsh's points. I too have met some of the families involved in this, and it is obviously a very serious issue for them. The decision has been taken and concluded on Translarna, and it is now the subject of legal proceedings, which is obviously something the company is absolutely entitled to do. Having said that, the door is never closed to new information and-or new applications, and the HSE is always happy to receive and consider new information. As for the application process and the decision taken, that has concluded and is going through another process in another forum. We have constraints as to how far we can go into that.

I understand that.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I want to put it on the record that any comment I have made has been on the process.

I understand the sensitivities of it. The questions that I am asking are historical. I put it to the witness that there were no negotiations on the initial price that was given. There were no further negotiations with PTC around the initial price that Professor Barry quoted earlier.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

That is not true.

What form did they take?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

There were meetings.

How many meetings?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

There was one meeting. It must be remembered that these were not conventional negotiations. There is a monopoly on the other side. There is no trade off. We are either reimbursing or not reimbursing. We do not have a trade off in the form of a conventional negotiation. We met the company and prepared for that meeting. In that particular case we had a health technology assessment, HTA, report. We provided the company with our view on what the best chance for the medicine getting through the process was and pointers around where we felt they could improve their offer.

It is then up to the company to decide whether it is in a position to do so. We met and we got a formal written offer.

The HSE had one meeting, one price was quoted and that was it.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

No. We had a price quoted. We went through the HTA process. We had a meeting. They quoted a price. We asked them to confirm that was their final offer. They said that was their final offer.

They confirmed that was their final offer.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Yes.

That is very important.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

In the original process, yes.

Mr. John Hennessy

As a matter of course, generally the HSE would appeal to the companies to lodge their applications with all their information, including their final best-price offer. It is not helpful for companies to be coming in at a high price and then being prepared to come down subsequent to decisions being taken. All that achieves is delaying the process and keeping a protracted process going. Our preference would be to conduct a clean process and have the absolute bottom-line price on the table from the word go.

Surely part of the remit is to negotiate on that price and get that price as low as the HSE possibly can. I accept the expectation that the drug company would come in at a price that was fair and reasonable. However, if in the HSE's opinion it is not fair and reasonable, surely it would be then fair and reasonable to go back and inform the company that the price is unacceptable and ask it for its discounted price, not the initial one. The HSE did ask for a discounted price.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I think we are getting into dangerous stuff - stuff on which I have an affidavit prepared. This is getting into fairly ropey areas. The High Court is likely to look at this area.

Does the Senator have general questions on orphan drugs? I want to bring in the other members.

I appreciate that. I do not have enough time to tease out all the data. Would the HSE be prepared to sit down with the drug company? It is unprecedented for a drug company to take legal action. God only knows how much it will end up costing in legal fees. I am sure it will be far in excess of what Translarna for two little boys would cost. Would the HSE be willing to sit down with PTC before this goes to court to try to work out a cost and provide conditional approval albeit that there may be additional data? It is very hard for people to understand why those two little boys cannot be the same as their peers in 18 other EU countries.

Mr. John Hennessy

I will try to answer that one. The application we are discussing has been dealt with and concluded following a particular course. That said, the HSE's door is always open to new information and new applications. The door is always open if people want to make further contact.

If any company wanted to make further contact with the HSE even in this situation-----

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Where we run into a situation where "Nos" are likely we tend to meet companies. A "No" is never a "No". A "No" is a "No" on an application; it is never a "No" on the specific drug. Any drug can have multiple applications. We never put a line in the sand saying that we have looked at that and will never look at it again. We are never in that position.

I will allow the Senator just one more question and we will then move on to other speakers.

What clinical evidence did the HSE take into consideration when assessing Translarna?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Some of these questions are things that are specifically covered by PTC and are questions that PTC is asking in its High Court case. I am really uncomfortable going into it. The HSE looked at all the evidence submitted.

I hope the HSE will sit down and reach agreement with the only drug company that provides this drug so that these two boys can be treated. That is all we are talking about.

Mr. John Hennessy

Chairman-----

I thank the Senator. I will call on other members who have waited very patiently. I call Deputy Brassil followed by Deputy Gino Kenny.

I thank the representatives of the HSE for coming in to address the committee.

I will get straight to the nub of the issue as I see it. A total of 148 orphan drugs are available to deal with rare diseases and ultra-rare diseases. Of those, 53 qualify for reimbursement in Ireland, which is 36%. While I do not want to get into other countries' models and how they deal with it, if we compare with other countries, the UK reimburses 68 of the 148; Spain reimburses 75; France reimburses 84; and Germany reimburses 133. By comparison with those EU countries we are at the bottom end of the scale.

Deputy Murphy O'Mahony stated she believed the system was broken, which the HSE witnesses rejected. If it is not broken, it is certainly not operating satisfactorily from a patient and a public representative point of view. I am sure it is also true from the HSE's point of view because Mr. Flanagan said he would love to be in a position to approve every drug that could be of benefit. At 36% and 53 out of 148, we are not performing to as high a level as we should. That is factual and we need to do something about it.

In its assessment the HSE uses a quantitative approach. It follows the 2013 Act. While that Act mentions cost effectiveness, it is not the Bible. It does not have to use cost-effectiveness and other parameters could be used. The HSE could take a qualitative approach to certain drugs if it wanted to. Rare diseases affect less than five in 10,000 which is 0.05% and ultra-rare diseases affect 0.002%. The patient cohort is tiny. It is extremely difficult to acquire clinical data on those patients. Using a quantitative approach in such cases will never work and will always result in "No" as the answer.

The witnesses can correct me if I am wrong in this opinion. We are not bound to the quantitative assessment. If we want to use a different approach, we can. We can determine that the health technology assessment guidelines are not relevant to a particular drug if we want to. We can take a particular drug and decide that we will not use the HTA guidelines because in this particular case they are not relevant and then come up with a different methodology that gives it some chance.

When dealing with a very specific disease we will never help those two, five, seven or eight people in a population unless we take a different approach. We need to take that on board as part of the HSE's review or otherwise we will be back in here every six months having the same debate, be it Respreeza, Translarna, Kuvan or whatever drug we are battling for on behalf of our constituents.

I ask the witnesses to take that into consideration. We need to broaden our approach to give these drugs some chance of getting over the line.

Let me mention specifically a few drugs. One currently under review is Kuvan for phenylketonuria, PKU. There was a time when we were world leaders in dealing with this particular disease. We came up with a dietary concept and we changed the lives of the people who suffer from this very rare condition. My colleague, Deputy Gino Kenny brought in people who suffer from this particular disease to the AV room and we had a very good presentation. We are at a very critical stage of that. Mr. Shaun Flanagan mentioned about the ability to argue cost. My information, and it might be wrong - I hope it is - is that the HSE has not gone back to the company looking for a negotiated cost on this.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

A meeting has been scheduled.

That is good to hear.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

We are in process.

Mr. Flanagan said that the current process focuses companies, so I wanted to focus the HSE as well. I want to get a negotiated settlement for this drug. I have a constituent in my village, who I did not realise until the AV presentation suffered from this condition. The boy's mother gave me a detailed breakdown of her day and how they deal with the diet and counting out 22 chips for the dinner, because that is allowed. Kuvan is not going to cure PKU but will increase the quality of life of the person. I would like to see this particular drug getting over the line and I hope it will.

Mr. John Hennessy mentioned the World Medical Association declaration of Helsinki – Ethical Principles for Medical Research Involving Human Subjects, which I am glad he did. Let me draw attention to paragraph 34, which deals with post-trial provisions. It states:

In advance of a clinical trial, sponsors, researchers and host country governments should make provisions for post-trial access for all participants who still need an intervention identified as beneficial in the trial. This information must also be disclosed to participants during the informed consent process.

That is what the World Medical Association Declaration of Helsinki tells us about people on clinical trials and compassionate access programmes. We have a responsibility which paragraph 34 states in black and white: the host country government has a responsibility. In Parliamentary Question No. 435 on 3 October 2017, Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Health if persons currently using Respreeza will not be denied access to this medication; and if he will make a statement on the matter. In his reply, the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, stated in the final lines:

The HSE has also advised that it has decided to continue with the provision of this treatment to this patient cohort only, for an initial period of two weeks.

The very obvious follow-on question from that is that if the HSE agreed to provide the medication for two weeks, the HSE is accepting that the drug has use and is of benefit to these 21 people. I can see no other reason that the HSE would agree to extend it for two weeks. If one does not accept that there is some benefit, giving it for another two weeks is not going to make any clinical difference. To use a phrase that has been used in financial terms, the HSE has skin in the game. In my view, the response to the parliamentary question indicates the HSE has bought into this drug.

When the company agreed to provide the drug for six months free of charge, subsequent to this answer, they would be the sponsors, as referred to in the Helsinki declaration, the researchers would be the Alpha 1 Foundation, and they are trying to put together a programme whereby the patients get the distribution and the administration of the drug. To me the HSE is just saying that it is not its responsibility, it is the responsibility of the researcher or the drug company but is not the responsibility of the HSE.

I have had several meetings and the officials have been very accommodating of my requests and I appreciate that, but I think taking into consideration what it states in the Declaration of Helsinki and the reply of the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, the HSE has a responsibility and it needs to assist patients in getting the administration of this drug. It is not acceptable for the HSE to say that is the responsibility of somebody else. I respectfully ask that the HSE sort out the issue in the coming days.

The drug is being provided free of charge for a period of six months. We are down to arguing on how it will be administered. That is a significant issue to the 21 patients because they will not know what day, time or week it will be administered, but know that the drug is waiting for them. That is not acceptable by any standard. We as elected members and members of the HSE really have a responsibility to put this right very quickly.

One more question, Deputy.

I am almost done. I thank the Chairman for being patient, but I set my time.

We appreciate that too.

I would like to use the opportunity to the best of my ability.

I have a number of specific questions. When the HSE is considering an orphan drug for a rare disease, is it treated separately or is it treated in the same way as every other drug? If the HSE does not put orphan drugs into a separate box, I think it should. What do the officials from the HSE think should happen to speed up the availability and make more orphan drugs available in Ireland? Do we need legislation to allow the HSE to do that? Do we need to amend the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013? If the 2013 Act is interpreted differently, as I said in my opening comments, would that be enough to change where we are at to move us from the 36% of drugs available up to somewhere north of 50%, so that we are not in or out with the various arguments we have?

The previous time Professor Barry from the NCPE was before the joint committee, he had nine staff available to him, which was recognised as not being near enough, and he had indicated that he could use 18 staff. Has the number of staff increased? I hope there has been an increase in staff but if there has not been, I will go back and try to improve that statistic.

My final question relates to biosimilar products. This is a question for the HSE officials, Mr. Shaun Flanagan and Mr. John Hennessy. I am aware of the biosimilars that could make significant savings to the drugs bill if they were used or even if the price of the original products was reduced to the same price as the biosimilars or if there was some sort of a competitive environment. That would make saving that would make providing money for Kuvan, Translarna and Respreeza a great deal easier. I ask that we pursue this vigorously because the savings are there for us as we speak, without having to do anything other than having physicians prescribing the biosimilars. When that happens, as it happened with the generics, the original product comes down in price.

I thank Deputy Brassil for his questions and call Deputy Gino Kenny.

I have found the discussion extremely insightful and very informative, so far. Access to orphan drugs is a very topical issue in Ireland at present and I wish to ask a couple of specific questions. Can the HSE overturn a decision made by the NCPE? If so, where has it happened and for which drug?

Mr. Hennessy referred to the assessment of orphan drugs. In my view the process is largely flawed, particularly for one drug called Kuvan, which is used in the treatment of phenylketonuria, PKU. Kuvan was approved by the FDA seven years ago, it was approved by the European regulator in 2009, it has been approved for use in 20 European countries and Ireland has one of the highest rates of PKU in the world. More bizarre is the fact that Kuvan is made here in Ireland in County Cork. I have outlined all of the mitigating circumstances for Kuvan to be approved as a drug to treat PKU. Mr. Hennessy has said that the HSE will meet to discuss Kuvan in the coming months. The meeting is imperative.

I wish raise the perennial issue whereby pharmaceutical companies ask Governments to pay extortionate amounts of money for drugs. It is all done at a time when they have countries and patients over a barrel. I do not know whether Mr. Hennessy can comment on the matter. The scenario is profiteering at its worst. It is the jungle mentality of capitalism. I would go so far as to say that huge pharmaceutical companies, and there are a lot of them in this country, are killing people. The companies have priced people out of their health and countries out of their wealth. I know Professor Barry because I have watched him speak a few times on television. I have a great deal of respect for him because he said that pharmaceutical companies have flexed their power over countries where drugs should be available to people. I ask the witnesses to comment on my questions, particularly my queries about Kuvan.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly also has a question. Before the witnesses respond, I would like to ask a question.

Membership of the EU must yield substantial benefits. Is it possible to harmonise the assessment process and, consequently, the pricing situation across Europe? Harmonisation would strengthen negotiations on pricing with a company. Surely that is one of the benefits to be gained from our membership of the EU.

There is great dissatisfaction with the process from the point of view of patients, companies and politicians. Deputy O'Connell has asked what we, as legislators, can do to improve the process. Does the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013 inhibit our ability to change the way we consider orphan drugs? Is that the pressure point that we, as legislators, should consider? I ask both Mr. Hennessy and Professor Barry to address my questions.

I agree with the sentiments expressed. People have made huge amounts of money from this situation. I fully respect the role that the HSE plays in trying to get the best value for money. We have witnessed scenes where people protested at the gates of Leinster House. People have put pressure on us to put pressure on the HSE. The issue is cyclical, which is really unhelpful. I echo what was said earlier. If there is anything that we can do, from a legislative perspective, to make the process easier and eliminate problems then we should consider doing so.

In terms of the drug Kuvan, Mr. Hennessy talked about stakeholder involvement earlier. I understand that the HSE is not hostile to the initiative but there does not seem to be a structured mechanism to allow stakeholder involvement. Is there? I ask because people have contacted us to tell us that they await news. Unfortunately, they do not know whether to check the Internet or await a telephone call. It seems that the families and patients, who are central to a lot of what we have discussed here this morning, often feel that they have been left out of the process. I appreciate that Professor Barry and Mr. Hennessy have held a meeting and there might be another meeting. Has a set of rules and protocols been written down that governs stakeholder and family involvement? They do not feel like they have been involved. They do not want to contact their local Deputy about this matter because they have better things to do. They make telephone calls to our offices and drop in because they do not feel that they have been involved in the process. Please outline how their involvement is catered for.

Mr. John Hennessy

I will first respond to the questions posed by Deputy Brassil. I would like to discuss what he has said because the figures he has quoted do not easily reconcile with me. The number of products that have been declined or refused here is very small and I am only aware of a handful. If he is suggesting that there are 148 products but only 53 are reimbursed here then that either means that an awful lot of them are still in process or they have been refused. Clearly they have not been refused.

I will forward a breakdown of my figures to Mr. Hennessy.

Mr. John Hennessy

We might try to reconcile our positions on the matter.

In terms of cost-effectiveness, I agree with the Deputy that there is more than cost effectiveness involved in the process. My experience is that where the clinical benefits are strong the products tend to be approved and cost is not the overriding factor. I am talking about products that clearly transform the lives of patients or save their lives. Where the clinical benefits are quite marginal and the prices are extremely high, that leads to a more protracted assessment and negotiation process. That is the space in which we are having much of our conversation today.

I wish to say to Mr. Flanagan that the process for Kuvan is ongoing and we need to see the process through to conclusion and, obviously, give people due process, rights of reply, etc. Further discussions are on the cards.

I am not sure I accept the analysis of the compassionate access to Respreeza. The State and the HSE were not involved at the start of those programmes and were not involved at any stage in the process up to now. It seems a bit disingenuous to now hand it over to the HSE and the State. I imagine it is not an issue of price, even though we still have to meet the company to clarify the issue. It would appear not to be a cost issue. If it is not a cost issue then it would appear to be an attempt to get a product approved by a different mechanism. If the product went through an application process that was concluded and the result was issued then getting involved in the compassionate access programme could be considered to be an approach to get Respreeza approved in spite of that decision. We have yet to hear the explanations and I do not want to pre-empt the discussions. I am sure that the committee members have also pondered the reasons the company is not prepared to continue the status quo and to provide for the administration of the drug. There must be some explanation for it doing so but I do not know what it is at the moment. We await the meeting with the company to clarify.

Deputy Brassil and other Deputies have asked what should happen.

What is being suggested is a change of policy that would somehow make access to orphan drugs easier. What would be needed to do that is to relax the criteria that need to be considered. The obvious thing that accompanies that is providing the funding to meet the cost. If it is made easier for orphan drugs to be approved in this jurisdiction then there will be an inevitable cost that will come with that. I might ask Mr. Flanagan to comment on the biosimilars point.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

In terms of biosimilars, yes I agree we need to make progress there. We are in discussions with a number of biosimilar companies around additional pricing opportunities with them. There are automatic price reductions that take place. There is a 30% price reduction that has taken place on the brands where a biosimilar has been introduced. It is timely to flag that a number of our hospital groups have started tender processes for some biosimilars and in particular for infliximab. I refer to formal tender processes with clinicians within the hospital groups. Clearly the difference between the biosimilars and the generics is that with generics there is a substitution available at the pharmacy level. That is not an opportunity currently with biosimilars. Evidence may develop over time to get that and make it easier. However, even with generics it was very difficult to get all clinicians on side around them and the committee will know that from its own experience.

What changed the market in Ireland almost overnight was the ability to enforce some level of substitution. I am not suggesting that the evidence is strong enough there yet for biosimilars but I think it is challenging to try to get clinicians to use them. It is about encouragement, trying to bring clinicians along and to get them to prescribe biosimilars. That is a bit of a challenge in some areas but particularly when the clinicians do not necessarily see the advantages of the biosimilar. Sometimes the clinicians may not realise that the inability of the HSE to maximise the use of biosimilars could be impacting on the new drugs that they want. We need people to buy in and understand that there is a life cycle when a biosimilar is introduced. If it is not used there is an opportunity cost. That is something the committee has clearly identified. We do not have the size of fund that we would wish to have available for all new medicines. That involves people taking a public good approach rather than a "what is in it for me" approach. Occasionally in our engagements there tends to be a "what is in it for me" and "what is in it for my service locally" approach. We need to get beyond that and we need people to realise that if there are biosimilars then the failure to prescribe them does have costs. People might not necessarily be aware of them and maybe there is no new drug on the horizon in their space but there are new drugs on the horizon in other spaces. I would echo that. We are working with a number of the biosimilar companies trying to learn from their experience in other countries around how they manage to leverage and get better utilisation.

In terms of phenylketonuria, PKU and the timelines, there was an assessment in 2009 and a decision was made that Sapropterin, or Kuvan, would not be reimbursed at that time. The fact that we are looking again at it shows that the HSE is always open to taking that approach. That addresses some of the questions that the Senator was asking around Translarna, as in is the door closed. The door is never closed. We will always look again at a medicine. The door is never closed. We say no to the application that we have at the current time but if new information becomes available a new assessment process is started and that is what has happened in the case of Sapropterin, or Kuvan. We are due to meet the company. I do not want to get into the issue of the newspaper media and the outcome of the negotiations, but the meeting with the company is due in the next weeks as opposed to months.

I cannot answer the question on an extortionate approach being taken for the simple reason that I have to engage with the industry, and if I was to go and say it was extortionate it might-----

Wear a balaclava.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

-----not be a good way to start a negotiation. I always like to work on the basis that the people on the other side of the table are willing to negotiate and are willing to do their best. My personal views on what I think about the pricing I will leave as personal.

Mr. John Hennessy

It might be a good time to try and clear some of Deputy Kenny's questions. On the question about overturning decisions by the NCPE, I think the answer is "Yes". It happens from time to time where there are compelling issues arising aside from cost-effectiveness, but Professor Barry might-----

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Orkambi is a case in point off the top of my head-----

Is that the only one?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

No, there are multiple scenarios where that happens. That is not a criticism of the process undertaken by the NCPE. It looks at a medicine at a priming point, at a price at that point and gives advice. Professor Barry is always very clear in the media that what he is giving is advice on the basis of the proposition put forward by the company. Is it a reasonable use of money at that time? If we can improve the commercial terms, clearly the reality is for almost every medicine 20% to 25%, 30% to 35% is how the terms move. That is how the prices move over time. That is a substantively different matter to the that Professor Barry would have been asked to look at.

Professor Michael Barry

From our perspective, we would say that is the way the HSE should be using our recommendations, namely, to try and get the best value for money that it can. Where we would say "No" initially to the initial price ask, as Mr. Flanagan was saying, one can get a substantial price reduction. That means of course that the expenditure from the HSE on that drug is much less and it is therefore available for other things. I think they use our work in a pretty good way many times.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

With regard to the questions on the harmonisation of the assessment process, I will leave that to Professor Barry. With regard to the questions on harmonisation on reimbursement, there is obviously the challenge that different countries have different abilities to pay. That is a statement of fact. We have tried to engage with our colleagues in Europe. For example, in preparation and even during the Orkambi discussions we met our colleagues from The Netherlands in The Hague. Could we have agreed a process? We made a decision to say "Yes" in June but they have only been able to say "Yes" now. Our colleagues in the UK have still not said "Yes", nor have colleagues in Australia and Belgium. They have a different view to the one that the HSE and this State ultimately took. It is difficult to get everybody aligned on the same basis. I doubt that we got an offer that they did not get. I doubt my team is that good. Perhaps we are but I doubt it. I would imagine that pharmaceutical companies take a pan-European approach that at a particular point in time they will offer a certain price. Maybe in a year's time it will be that price minus 5% or minus 10% as price moves on.

Was the patent running out?

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

No, offering a personal view, and I do not have evidence to support this, I think it would be on reimbursement agencies. Reimbursement agencies internationally would concur that companies go to the countries that pay the highest prices first. There is no doubt that in the past, a decade ago, Ireland was the first. We know where our prices were a decade ago. Unfortunately, once one starts challenging companies are reluctant to make concessions. Over time they might make a concession in Germany. My guess is that concession then becomes available across Europe because someone has broken the bar within their own government structure. Then maybe France does a better deal, maybe Ireland does a better deal, and that becomes available to other countries and parties trickle into it eventually. Could we do better if we got everybody on side? Perhaps we could. However, how do we make that happen? We are all willing in our budget, our national service plan process, to put aside the amount of money needed to say "Yes" to these 25 or 30 drugs.

The one point I would make on the criticisms of our process is that there are 45 new medicines that come through the EMA every year. Some of those medicines have multiple indications. The list we are getting here today is four or five medicines. There are not 40 medicines coming through in representations. That is my understanding because I have not seen the replies to the parliamentary questions. Yes, we are having challenges and yes, we are facing funding difficulties. However, historically our record is very good. Over the last few years we have struggled. As a country we have come out of the biggest economic depression in decades. We managed to keep the process going through that from the significant savings that we made through reference pricing and generic substitutions.

There is no doubt that in the last couple of years there has been a step-change in the number of medicine coming to us. The committee could give me a couple of hundred million euro today and I still would not be able to clear every medicine over the next five years. That is the reality.

That is the volume of it.

Mr. John Hennessy

I would like to finish on a couple of the points raised. Professor Barry might want to comment a bit more on the changes that are happening in the pharmaceutical world that are moving now away from the high volume products towards rarer products and higher prices. That does seem to be a significant pattern. Perhaps it explains why we are back at this committee for the second time this year; that signifies in its own way the importance of this issue as an emerging issue for so many people.

To finish on Deputy Kenny's point, it does not appear that the product being made in Ireland gives us any entitlement to better pricing, by the way, but maybe that should be something that is worth considering a bit further. It does not appear that way to us anyway in terms of pricing strategies that are accompanying applications.

On Deputy O'Reilly's point about structured or more structured measures to address stakeholder involvement, I think we would be open to exploring that and examining that further. Stakeholder, patient and advocacy groups are very welcome to make submissions as part of any application that is being processed at any time and to be heard. We are happy to conduct oral hearings in the course of the assessment of a new product, but if there are measures that can be done to strengthen that and improve that I think we would be very open to that. Obviously, at some point the process has to close and the decision get taken on an application. Otherwise it goes on indefinitely.

Professor Barry was going to comment on harmonisation of the process.

Professor Michael Barry

I will, and I will comment on the stakeholder engagement. Our colleagues in Scotland have been very active in this. However, they did get £1 million to actually do it. It is very labour intensive and it requires resources to do proper stakeholder engagement. With our current resources, sxtructured stakeholder engagement would make it very difficult for us indeed. We try to do the best we can and try to incorporate it into our assessments whenever we can.

On harmonisation, I do not see European harmonisation happening anytime soon. There is no evidence that the European countries would agree on the process for assessment. Some of them would require legislative change if pan-European heath technology assessment, HTA, was brought in: Germany is an example, it is in its constitution. Then there is the differing cost base right across the Europe. Even the drug prices will differ substantially across Europe because of various margins not to mention other health care costs like hospitalisation utilisation. It is something we discuss regularly at international meetings, only just yesterday and the day before. The conclusion of those meetings was that this will not happen anytime soon. That does not mean that we cannot try. That is why we saw the Belgians, Dutch, Luxembourgers and Austrians coming together into BeNeLuxA. Having said that, they still said no at the end of their joint assessment of Orkambi. It is not going to happen any time soon to be honest. I do not see it happening.

Deputy Brassil asked about staffing and I think he has a supplementary question as well.

My contributions are not by way of being critical, they are by way of asking how we improve the system. I fully appreciate the work that the witnesses do and that their goal is the same as mine. The witnesses do not need to be defensive as far as I am concerned. I respect what they are doing. I am just trying to improve what we do with the resources we have to make as many new and orphan drugs available as we can that are beneficial and cost-effective.

The supplementary question I have, which I asked the last time that the witnesses were in and did not get an answer to at the time, may be something that the witnesses could follow up for me. What percentage of our drugs bill is spent on orphan drugs and drugs for rare diseases? That is an important statistic for the witnesses to have so that they can compare it with other EU countries. It is important if we are in a low percentile, we could increase, mindful of the fact that as technology develops and companies develop new medicines, we should have a target percentage-wise and work within those parameters. That might make it easier for the witnesses to do their job as well.

Kuvan is under discussion. There is substantial evidence, I hope, to show that Kuvan does work. Mr. Flanagan made the point that there are 45 drugs and we are only talking about a few. I would respond by saying that the reason we are only talking about a few is because I believe those drugs to be effective and that is why we are arguing about those. I believe in Respreeza. I have met the patients, I have dealt with them, I have spoken to them, I have seen the benefit to them and that is why I am advocating on their behalf. The same applies with Kuvan. I have met the families involved and I have seen the research. The drug can bring about a very significant improvement in quality of life I am not going to get into the Translarna one because I think it has been debated enough.

The last point I would make to Mr. Hennessy concerns the comment he reiterated about Respreeza coming back on the witnesses. I think the Declaration of Helsinki clearly states that we are involved whether we like it or not. I also go back to the point about the reply to the parliamentary question, whether it was something that the witnesses are going to regret putting in or not for the rest of their days. I do not know. However, by stating that the HSE will continue to provide the treatment for that patient cohort for two weeks I firmly believe that basically says that the witnesses believe that it has a benefit or otherwise they would not have agreed to do that. Please take all those things into consideration and sort out this administration issue so that we can get it out of the way and hopefully in six months time we may come to a solution on that particular product.

I thank Deputy Brassil.

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

Can I just come back on one tiny point? I think the Deputy referred to orphan drugs and medicines that are cost-effective and effective. The point that we have been trying to get across is that if those are the decision criteria, we cannot get there. For some of the orphan medicines, if they are to be reimbursed they have to be reimbursed despite the cost-effectiveness evidence. I would like to get that nuance out there.

I accept that, but what I originally said was that the witnesses do not have to go by those criteria. They can decide that it is not relevant in this case; it is not possible because due to the low patient cohort, they cannot get the clinical data; they can make a call on this on a separate basis and I think they have to-----

Mr. Shaun Flanagan

I get that and I accept the point that the Deputy is making. We think that we have pushed the legislation as far as we can. Many of the things we are being criticised for are on a pure evidence basis where we are not necessarily aligned with the Deputy on all of those evidence bases. However, in many cases, if people want a "yes" to all of those medicines, that has to be in the full knowledge that the medicine is cost ineffective. Does the Deputy know what I mean? It is proven beyond doubt that the medicine is cost ineffective. I do not mean to be offensive in any way but that is the challenge that the HSE faces. When we know that we must consider its consequence for other services, and that is the policy and ethical nuance that we are always hanging on. I am not a member of the drugs group but I am there because I have to explain the commercial negotiations and that those are the challenges they actually really struggle with. People genuinely do not want to vote "No"; they never want to vote "No".

I am throwing into the mix, then, the issue of biosimilars and I think we are close enough in our thoughts on it. When a drug comes off patent, competition applies. Companies will do their level best to hold on to as much as they can and get as much as they can for it but there is nothing that we should be doing that in any way prevents us from getting the best possible value, and I make no apologies to any company out there, one gets one's opportunity and one makes one's investment and the more profit that one makes that is fine by me. However, when one's patent time is up and there is an opportunity for the drug to be made elsewhere and better value to be achieved we should be achieving that to the maximum.

If we did, I guarantee that the witnesses would not be sitting there worrying about the few million euro that we need for those important drugs because the HSE would have the money to deal with the matter.

If Mr. Hennessy, Professor Barry, Mr. Flanagan and Ms Tilson have no final comments to make, I thank them on behalf of the committee for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 November 2017.
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