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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Tuesday, 1 Mar 2022

General Scheme of the Public Health (Tobacco and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Bill: Discussion (Resumed)

Apologies have been received from Senator Frances Black. Today the committee will continue pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the public health (tobacco and nicotine inhaling products) Bill. The meeting will be split into two sessions and I welcome now our first set of witnesses from Vape Business Ireland. They are Mr. John Dunne, spokesperson, and Mr. Eoin O'Boyle, a member of the organisation.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. I call Mr. Dunne to make his opening remarks.

Mr. John Dunne

I thank the Chair and members of the Oireachtas Joint Health Committee for inviting vaping retailer and member of Vape Business Ireland, VBI, Eoin O’Boyle and me, spokesperson for VBI, to appear before them today on behalf of the association. I will be sharing the time allocated to VBI with Mr. O'Boyle. First, we would like to acknowledge and commend the members of the committee on the work undertaken on this important legislation at the pre-legislative scrutiny stage. We very much welcome the opportunity to represent the interests of the 200,000 people around the country who use vaping products and the 300 plus retailers and newsagents, who each day are responsible for guiding, supporting and advising adult smokers in their communities on this less harmful alternative to help achieve a tobacco-free Ireland.

In 2013, the Department of Health set an ambitious goal of a tobacco-free Ireland by 2025, aiming to achieve a smoking prevalence rate of 5% or lower. Despite the efforts of many, the HSE acknowledged in its report of 2018, The State of Tobacco Control in Ireland, that this goal will not be achieved until 2052. As members know, the Department of Health’s Healthy Ireland survey of 2021 found that the smoking rate has actually increased for the first time in many years, and with a current smoking rate of 18%, we are nowhere near reaching the goal.

Clearly, to get us back on the path towards achieving this goal, we need a new approach, and vaping should be a central component within that. Vaping has a vital place in this equation. Indeed, the Healthy Ireland survey of 2019 showed that compared to nicotine replacement therapy, NRT, almost four times as many successful quit attempts were attributed to vaping. While 10% of those who successfully quit used NRT, 38% used vaping.

In our written submission to this committee, Vape Business Ireland provided samples of the expert-led evidence which shows that vaping is significantly less risky than smoking. The most important of those was the Public Health England evidence review of 2015, which was carried out by experts from King's College London and Queen Mary University of London, showed that vaping products are around 95% less harmful than smoking. Public Health England has consistently maintained this position in its annual evidence updates, and its findings have been backed by key health experts and groups, including the Royal College of Physicians and leading anti-tobacco NGOs such as Action on Smoking and Health, ASH, and Cancer Research UK to name but a few.

Driven by our responsible approach to vape usage and tobacco harm reduction, Vape Business Ireland particularly welcomes what we view as the most critical part of the Bill, that being the proposed ban on the sale of vaping products to persons under the age of 18 years. This is something we have urged the Government to introduce since 2015, to protect young people and to create a controlled environment where vaping products are available for adult Irish smokers looking to switch to a less harmful alternative. In fact, we have stringent rules in place for membership of the association and we also have a code of conduct that is fully focused on prohibiting the sale of vape products to under-18s. Mr. O'Boyle will elaborate on this shortly as someone who has first-hand experience of applying for membership and the standards VBI has set for the retail sector.

It should be noted that we use the exact same technology as supermarkets to prevent the underage sale of alcohol, despite no official under-18s ban in place in the State. We take our self-imposed obligations seriously and do not want young people using these products, which is why we urge the committee to make this law as soon as possible. It should also be recognised that the licensing system in the Bill will be hugely beneficial in creating a database of responsible licensed sellers and we support appropriate sanctions for those who do not meet its requirements.

On youth access research in Ireland, the most recent study which perhaps has not yet been raised with the committee is the WHO-supported Health Behaviour in School-Aged Children, HBSC, report released in 2021. It showed that smoking among school-aged children had plummeted from 22.6% in 1998 to just 5.3% in 2018.

Furthermore, the Department of Health Healthy Ireland Survey 2021 showed that less than 1% of "never smokers" use vaping. This is a survey of 7,500 people aged 15 years or above. In a recent response to a parliamentary question, the Minister for Health confirmed this, saying the number of vapers remains low and "primarily consists of current and former smokers". While the evidence does not point to a huge vaping problem in Ireland, we need to urgently ban underage sales while ensuring adult smokers have an alternative that works.

The fact is that the data indicate that youth uptake of vaping remains low. Although any youth uptake of these and other products is of concern, the Healthy Ireland Survey 2021 found that regular use among young people remains in line with the national average of 4%. It also showed that virtually no "never smokers" currently vape. This is not a gateway into smoking; it is the most effective tool for helping smokers to quit for good.

Part of a responsible approach to regulation and business practice alike is that it is proportionate and strikes a balance between different but sometimes compatible interests that are focused on achieving similar objectives. For this reason, VBI opposes an overly limiting ban on flavourings in vaping products. It is important we recognise that flavours in NRT and vaping products play a vital role in helping adult smokers to quit. We fully agree with the views expressed by Department of Health officials who appeared before the committee in November 2021 and who said we have to "strike that balance" when it comes to flavours. VBI argues that we must get the balance right for the 200,000 people who depend on vaping products to prevent them from lapsing back into smoking and the 700,000 smokers who might be considering vaping as a tool to help them move away from smoking. Those who have quit smoking do not always want to taste tobacco flavours. Adults like flavours, and flavourings make up things adults consume such as caffeine drinks, alcohol, foods, etc. That is why NRT products also have flavourings.

This brings us back to the beginning of my remarks. We are here to face the reality of the specifics of Irish smokers and the Irish vaping market. The facts are clear: vapers in Ireland are overwhelmingly current and ex-smokers, and the majority of them began vaping in order to quit and to stay off smoking. Furthermore, backing up the Department of Health's Healthy Ireland survey year on year, the Health Research Board's 2019-20 Irish National Drug and Alcohol Survey found that more than 95% of Ireland's vapers are former or current smokers. Clearly, vaping is being used by those for whom it is intended, namely smokers who want to quit and ex-smokers who never want to go back. Vaping works, and that is why it is vital we support adult smokers in making the switch while also taking the necessary steps to ensure that young people never access a product that is not intended for them.

VBI wishes to highlight that vaping has been strongly regulated by the second EU tobacco products directive since 2016. It is important to compare like with like and focus on the experience of vapers in the UK and the EU. Vaping is largely unregulated in the United States, so comparing the United States with the UK or the EU is not a like-for-like comparison. In the United States these products contain three times more nicotine and are unlimited in volume, and ingredients are not regulated. Drawing conclusions from studies conducted outside the European Union and seeking to apply them to the Irish scenario fails to reflect the stringent EU and Irish regulatory framework controlling the manufacture and marketing of vaping products.

Under existing regulations, health warnings that advise consumers that vaping products contain nicotine are mandatory. The regulations also provide for mandatory safety and quality requirements for vaping products and refill containers, including maximum nicotine concentrations and maximum volumes for cartridges, tanks and nicotine liquid containers. The regulations require vaping product manufacturers and importers to notify the Health Service Executive of all products they place on the Irish market. If a manufacturer, importer or distributor has reason to believe a product is not safe, it is required by law to notify the Health Service Executive.

A crucial part of helping smokers to give up smoking is advertising and awareness raising. Vaping product advertisements are subject heavily to EU regulation under the aforementioned directive.

In Ireland the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland's code of standards for advertising and marketing communications includes strict rules on the marketing of vaping products to consumers, including those who are under the age of 18. Furthermore, no medium can be used to advertise vaping products if more than 25% of its audience is under the age of 18.

I would like to take this opportunity to outline the experience of Estonia as a case study of a country that got it wrong when it implemented a ban on vaping flavours. By limiting choice, the country adversely impacted smoking cessation rates and a black market of unregulated and unsafe products prospered. In response to this dramatic shift, Estonia has actually softened its regulations now to allow more flavours for adults looking for a less harmful alternative to smoking. Continuing to looking at this issue through an EU-wide lens, I would also like to highlight current and future developments. Just last month, the European Parliament supported a Beating Cancer report which calls for harm reduction and the explicit recognition of electronic cigarettes as a product that allows users to progressively quit smoking and that should be regulated differently from cigarettes. Separately, work on amending the EU tobacco products directive is expected to advance soon. VPI would argue that Irish legislators should not pre-empt this process but should wait for the outcome of this work before making decisions that could potentially limit the options of smokers looking for an alternative.

As the EU moves towards recognising the value of vaping products in tobacco harm reduction, we have already seen support for vaping as a less harmful alternative to smoking from major public health authorities and health bodies across the UK and worldwide. Looking at the UK, ASH UK, Cancer Research UK and the British Heart Foundation have looked at the evidence and taken a clear position identifying and advocating vaping as a harm reduction tool. Indeed, in June 2021, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE, which advises healthcare professionals in the UK, updated its guidance to general practitioners on smoking cessation. NICE finds that combined with behavioural support, the options of either a combination of short and long-acting nicotine replacement therapy, NRT, or nicotine-containing e-cigarettes are more likely to result in people successfully stopping smoking, and recommends that general practitioners should provide patients with guidance about e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation tool.

Cochrane is held as the gold standard among academics, and its review of electronic cigarettes for smoking cessation found that nicotine-containing e-cigarettes are 70% more effective in supporting smokers to successfully quit than NRT products. This backs up the aforementioned evidence from successive Healthy Ireland reports which showed that vaping has been far more effective than NRT in helping smokers to quit. Smoking rates fall as the rate of vaping increases. One example of this is seen in the European Commission’s Eurobarometer findings which showed that Ireland’s smoking rate was 5% below the European average, while Ireland’s vaping rate was 5% above the European average. Already, vaping is making a difference in the State and with the right approach it could help far more smokers to quit.

We have a real-life example of how this can be achieved by looking at the UK. The British health authorities have parsed the evidence and they have been both ambitious and decisive on how vaping can help smokers quit. The NHS is working on proposals that could see England be the first country in the world to prescribe medicinally licensed vaping products to help reduce smoking rates. The UK Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Mr. Sajid Javid, M.P., was recently quoted as saying that they would unveil a White Paper this spring that is to include a "vaping revolution". The continuous downward trajectory of smoking rates in the UK is in no small part testament to the pragmatic approach taken towards vaping and understanding the integral role vaping products can play in delivering on their tobacco reduction strategy. We are seeing a similarly progressive approach being adopted by other countries such as New Zealand, where vaping is a critical part of the country’s plans to dramatically decrease their smoking rates. We firmly contend that the adoption of a similar approach and treatment of vaping as a harm reduction solution would have a significant impact in helping Ireland reach its Tobacco Free Ireland objectives.

In the context of this Bill, we must not continue to ignore the growing and credible body of evidence supporting vaping as a less harmful alternative to smoking.

While it is essential that we do everything we can to prevent youth access to vaping products, we must also ensure that we find the right balance in protecting the 200,000 vapers right across Ireland from relapsing. We must also ensure that all options remain open and accessible to those adult smokers who are currently trying to move away from smoking.

I will hand over to Eoin O'Boyle, who will give the committee his front-line perspective on how businesses like his have helped adult smokers with less harmful alternatives across the country. I thank committee members for their time and I look forward to our discussion.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

I run a small, independent vape shop, OB Vape, in Southgate Shopping Centre, Drogheda, County Meath. I set up my business three years ago after working for another vape shop, where I was inspired by the transformative power of vaping in the lives of smokers who had failed to quit by other means. I am enormously grateful for the opportunity to outline to the committee my experience in providing vaping as a smoking cessation tool and to make the case for why Ireland needs to take a supportive and proportionate regulatory stance on vaping, so that all the advances in smoking cessation are not undone.

As a retailer, I am committed to providing a bespoke "quit smoking" service for adult smokers who have failed to do so while utilising the methods currently recommended by Irish health authorities. When a new customer walks into my retail shop, I conduct an initial consultation of between 30 and 40 minutes, during which I find out about their smoking habits and, accordingly, I tailor my advice and recommendations to them. The choice and selection of starter kits for those making the switch from smoking to vaping are important. The addiction to smoking is different for every smoker and my on-the-ground experience means I can match the product to the smoker seeking to quit.

I find that when smokers initially switch to vaping, they will typically use tobacco flavour. However, as their taste buds recover and as they move away from smoking completely, they often do not want to continue using tobacco flavour and tend to seek alternative options, such as fruit or mint. In the context of any debate around flavours, it is important to acknowledge and understand that adult former smokers need flavours and that their preferences change over time. This need for flavoured options also helps to explain why flavoured Nicorette lozenges are so popular for those who go down the NRT route, just as it explains why our health authorities provide information about flavoured NRT products. For those looking to get off tobacco, flavours matter enormously. One example of this importance was shown in a major Europe-wide study recently conducted by the European Tobacco Harm Reduction Advocates group, which found that 94.6% of current vapers use non-tobacco flavours. Members will have noticed during a previous committee session that the Department of Health official acknowledged that “flavours may be useful” in helping smokers to quit. We welcome that acknowledgement but, with the greatest of respect, those like me who work in this sector and speak to vapers every day know there is no doubt that flavours are a crucial part of what helps smokers to quit.

In that same spirit, let me briefly acquaint the committee with a customer of mine who is in her 30s and smoked cigarettes for 17 years. She found that, despite multiple attempts, she could not quit smoking until she engaged with my service. She told me that the experience my business offered made her feel cared for, and that we understood her addiction and worked continuously with her to help her quit. She has not smoked for three years at this point and is much healthier and more active. She goes to cross-fit classes, where she has the same heart rate as those who had never smoked. She is now more energised and invests more in her overall health and well-being. This story and thousands more underline the importance of having vaping available as a flexible smoking cessation tool, including the role of flavours.

I stress that nobody under the age of 18 should ever vape. I am, as are all my fellow members of VBI, fully committed to ensuring that vaping remains a smoking cessation and harm reduction tool for adults only. This means that, collectively, we adopt a blanket opposition to the sale and marketing of vaping products to those under 18. In that context, VBI members and I personally subscribe to our code of conduct and agree that advertisement of vaping products should not involve flavour names or descriptions that are associated with youth culture. Flavours are an important incentive for adult smokers seeking to quit but any attempt to exclusively target children through enticing advertisements is something to which VBI members are strongly opposed.

We also, even in the absence of such legislation, are committed to verifying the ages of our customers and selling only to those over 18. VBI members commit to proper age verification training for all their staff. In my shop, we check ID for everyone who crosses the threshold of the premises and appears to be under the age of 25, and we ask anyone under the age of 18 to leave. I do not want any minors browsing my products, let alone buying any of them. In my case, approximately 20% of my sales are conducted online, and these sales are overwhelmingly to existing local customers.

In my case, approximately 20% of my sales are conducted online. These sales are overwhelmingly to existing local customers. Even so, I am exploring with my VBI colleagues the adoption of age verification mechanisms for online sales that our counterparts in the UK have recently rolled out.

We are committed to driving the best standards in our business practices and the right regulatory framework will support us in our efforts. We want to work with all stakeholders to make the underage sales ban a success, and to ensure that nobody under the age of 18 ever accesses these products.

In conclusion, I would like to stress that there is a balance of risks for me as a trader, just as there is for the committee in deciding on this legislation. I am not always in a position, as a small retailer, to get exactly what I want in a global and digital marketplace. Proportionate regulation will be a valuable tool in my negotiations with suppliers in seeking to make sure that my products not only meet the needs of my adult customers, but are also branded as such. VBI members are keen to work with legislators to inform them of the sector’s experience and to help them get the balance of response right. Regulation and supportive Government policy can help responsible Irish vape shops in aiding smokers to quit, while also helping to ensure that young people do not access a product that is not meant for them. Regulation also must not be excessive. This would keep smokers smoking, facing proven health risks and unfortunately facing premature death.

Our organisation is proud of the role that small vaping retailers, such as mine, play every day in helping smokers to transition to far less harmful products. With the right approach from the Government, we can play an even larger role in helping to make a tobacco-free Ireland a reality.

I thank the committee for this opportunity to contribute. I look forward to answering any questions the members may have.

We will now move to the round of questions. The first speaker is Senator Conway.

I thank VBI for their presentation. I have no doubt that there are people whose health the organisation has helped. I understand that there are roughly 300 vape shops in the country. Is that correct?

Mr. John Dunne

That is about right, yes.

How many of those does VBI represent?

Mr. John Dunne

Approximately eight different vape shop chains are members of VBI.

How many shops in total of the 300?

Mr. John Dunne

I am not familiar with that number.

Could I put it to Mr. Dunne that it is less than 5%?

Mr. John Dunne

The Senator is probably right.

VBI's submission states that it sets a very high standard or criteria for being a member of the organisation, which is great. However, forgive me for suggesting that approximately 95% of the vape shops in the country clearly either do not want to or fail to meet VBI’s criteria because they are not members of the organisation. I do not doubt the Mr. Dunne's integrity and the way he goes about his business, but he is representing a small minority of the vape shops in this country. How would he respond to that?

Mr. John Dunne

I think the Senator is right. There is obviously an opportunity for VBI to do a better job of recruiting members. However, one of the issues we face in this State is that there is a reasonably pessimistic view from both retailers and the public around vaping as whole. If we were to see that change, and if we were to see public health getting behind vaping, as is done in the UK, we would see a very different picture here. There is an opportunity to encourage retailers to do the right thing and to join a retail group but that is always a challenge. It is especially a challenge at the moment, when retailers are struggling to keep their heads above water, having gone through a two-year adverse trading period. People are looking at how they spend their money. Obviously, there is a cost to being involved in an association.

How many suppliers on average would a vape shop have?

Mr. John Dunne

That figure has decreased since the UK moved away from the EU because most of the supplies primarily came from suppliers in the UK. Now, therefore, the shops - and Mr. O’Boyle can attest to this - are dealing directly with more companies such as those in China. They are bringing it in that way.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Before Brexit, 70% to 80% of my products would have been from UK-based wholesalers and distributors. Now, between 60% and 70% are based in Ireland. I put a key emphasis on using wholesalers that are based in Ireland and stocking products-----

How many of those suppliers are owned by the cigarette industry?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Not one.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

There is this misconception out there when it comes to the involvement of tobacco in the vaping industry. In my shop, for example, there are close to 1,000 products. They are suited to every type of vaper. Only one of those products is made by a tobacco company.

Okay. What about the 95% of shops that are not part of Mr. O'Boyle's organisation?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

I can attest to the fact------

There is the problem.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

-----that although they may not be members of VBI, I have a close relationship with a large number of shops throughout Ireland. It is a very similar demographic with the number of products that are stocked that are manufactured by tobacco companies. It might only be between 1% and 5% of products. There is this misconception out there tobacco companies control the vaping industry but in the independent vaping shops they do not. There is not one vape shop, to my knowledge that-----

I am conscious of time. How many of the 95% of vape shops not in Mr. O'Boyle's organisation are either owned by cigarette companies, be that either wholly or in the form of shares? It could be through the front door or the back door.

Mr. John Dunne

The number is zero.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

It is zero.

Mr. John Dunne

In this State.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Yes.

That is fine. I thank the Chairman.

I thank the representatives. They are very welcome. I begin with a number of potential amendments to the Bill to see whether Mr. O'Boyle and Mr. Dunne support them. They said in their opening statement that they would support a ban on vaping products for those aged under 18. Is that correct?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Absolutely.

Mr. John Dunne

Yes.

I will come back to that in a second. Would they support a ban on flavoured e-cigarettes?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Absolutely not.

Mr. John Dunne

I would not.

Would they support extending tobacco advertising restrictions to e-cigarettes?

Mr. John Dunne

There is a debate to have around that. There is a way of responsibly advertising vaping products.

Would they support an outright ban?

Mr. John Dunne

I would not.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

No.

Okay. Would they support extending plain packaging from tobacco to e-cigarettes?

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely not.

Okay. That concerns me due to the public health element of this. I come at this through that lens-----

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Sure.

-----and ensuring we protect the health of all citizens but most especially children. I return to the issue of banning products for those aged under 18. In the current or past membership of VBI, are there or were there any representative bodies of organisations that sell tobacco products?

Mr. John Dunne

Yes. there are.

Mr. John Dunne

Currently there is one member, which is British American Tobacco.

Mr. John Dunne

Yes.

Okay. What about Blu?

Mr. John Dunne

No.

Is it a former member?

Mr. John Dunne

A former member, yes.

What about IQOS?

Mr. John Dunne

It is a former member, correct.

All of these sell tobacco products.

Mr. John Dunne

That is correct, yes.

Many of them marketed their products towards young children, especially in developing countries. Have the representatives done any research on that?

Mr. John Dunne

I believe so. I do not work for tobacco companies.

I know that but they were members of Mr. Dunne's body at one point or another.

Mr. John Dunne

Correct and they do sell cigarettes.

Mr. Dunne is telling us is he supports the ban for people aged under 18. I put it to him some of his members sell tobacco products and the international evidence shows they market those products, especially in developing countries, to young children.

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely, but as an all-inclusive organisation we believe we should be open to anybody involved in the vaping sector in the State. We, therefore, open our membership to any manufacturer, distributor or supplier of vaping products in this State.

Does he support all advertising of vaping products that presents it as a quick aid for smokers? That is as opposed to what I have seen in some areas where there are sleek, outdoor, brightly-coloured premises. We will get to the flavouring as well, which some people see as having an added attraction for children and potentially encourage them to take up vaping. Do the VBI representatives support essentially marketing all vaping products as only quit-aid products?

Mr. John Dunne

That would be a good thing.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Absolutely.

Mr. John Dunne

That would be a sensible approach. I do not see any reason to-----

In that case, Mr. Dunne should encourage his members to do that because it is not happening. When he says it is a good thing, does he encourage them to do that, as a practice?

Mr. John Dunne

Unfortunately, under the tobacco products directive we are not allowed make a claim that our product is a smoking cessation tool. However, if the Government were to change that it could come out with some pre-approved switching messages that-----

With respect, there is nothing stopping any of the organisations that sells these products from marketing them in a different way.

Mr. John Dunne

In what way?

I have seen examples of what I would call brightly coloured sleek outdoor operations that market and project these products in a different way. I certainly would not come away from the set-up of the shop seeing it as a shop selling products that are quit aid products.

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. They are marketed as an adult product in the same way as alcohol comes in many different flavours. It comes in brightly coloured bottles.

That is the point I just made a couple of minutes ago. I was asking what is stopping them making a change in how the shops are branded and marketed. Mr. Dunne cited legislation. There is nothing stopping the suppliers doing it.

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. There is nothing.

Has Vape Business Ireland had this discussion at membership level?

Mr. John Dunne

Most, if not all, of the members market their products in a responsible manner in the State.

I do not have enough time. I will finish on this. I might get back in a second time. In fairness, it is not the fault of the witnesses. They had very lengthy time opening statements, which is fine. We had two opening statements. The Chair will agree it is very difficult, if not impossible, to do any justice to the issue in five minutes when we must include answers. I know we have two sessions. I know other members will have their views. I do not think five minutes is anywhere near enough for us to be able to get under the bonnet of all of these issues. I thank the witnesses. If there is time for a second opportunity I will take it.

I note what the Deputy is saying and I agree.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I will work on the basis they watched the previous sessions. I want to pick up on the points made by Deputy Cullinane. The witnesses have spoken a lot about whether vaping is a quit aid. We established in the previous session that the HSE does not recognise it as a quit aid. Mr. Dunne mentioned that the UK has been more forthright in its support. The NHS does not support it as a quit aid. Is that correct?

Mr. John Dunne

No, that is incorrect.

The NHS is currently prescribing it?

Mr. John Dunne

The NHS does not prescribe it-----

It does not prescribe it.

Mr. John Dunne

-----because it is not a medically-licensed product so it cannot prescribe it. However, GPs recommend vaping products.

GPs are not the NHS. It does not prescribe it. Is that correct?

Mr. John Dunne

Two NHS trusts have put vaping shops in their hospitals in the UK.

Do they prescribe it?

Mr. John Dunne

They cannot prescribe it because it is not a medical product.

I am sure Mr. Dunne is aware of the study raised in the previous session by the British Medical Journal that showed that e-cigarettes are now linked to fewer successful quitters than other smoking cessation aids.

Mr. John Dunne

That is not the general consensus in the UK.

Is Mr. Dunne setting this aside as a piece of research?

Mr. John Dunne

No I am saying the NHS and Action for Smoking on Health, which looks at it on a yearly basis, have shown it is twice as effective as all other nicotine replacement therapy products combined in smoking-----

So Mr. Dunne is not accepting the research from the British Medical Journal.

Mr. John Dunne

No, I am not accepting it.

What is the sector worth in terms of its turnover?

Mr. John Dunne

In the State? I do not know exactly how much it is worth.

Does the organisation apply a certain percentage to carry out research here in conjunction with academics or medical professionals?

Mr. John Dunne

We do not carry out specific studies.

It does not fund studies.

Mr. John Dunne

No.

Mr. John Dunne

Other than what we put on our own website, no.

I will return to the fact the organisation does not, from what I can gather, support the idea of plain packaging.

Mr. John Dunne

No, we are not supporting that.

Mr. John Dunne

Why is that?

Mr. John Dunne

It would be extremely confusing for smokers in the State.

Mr. Dunne sees it as a quit aid.

Mr. John Dunne

Many governments see it as a quit aid.

Mr. John Dunne

I cannot say it is quit aid because it is not a medically-licensed product.

Exactly. Is Mr. Dunne happy it would continue not to be a medically-licensed product, in which case we can set it aside as a quit aid? Does he think it should be seen as a medical product?

Mr. John Dunne

The way that vaping has developed over the past 11 years has been in a consumer-led approach. I do not think there would be any benefit, in fact I think there would be a cost hindrance to the State, to look at a medically-licensed product.

Can we set aside the idea it is a quit aid? The research is mixed and Mr. Dunne is not moving towards it being a medical product. Can we set aside the idea he believes it is a quit aid?

Mr. John Dunne

I believe many people have used it as a way to get off smoking but I cannot legally call it a quit aid.

I would prefer to stick to the evidence-based research.

Mr. John Dunne

The evidence-based research also points in that direction.

The British Medical Journal says the opposite.

We cannot come to a consensus on this. Mr. Dunne is refusing to accept plain packaging which, in fairness would be standard for most medical products. When people fill a prescription the product comes in something that might have the name on it. Most generic medicines have plain packaging. We know smoking products have plain packaging. Are we setting aside the issue of it being a quit aid?

Mr. John Dunne

I presume the Deputy has no problem with Nicorette coming in brightly coloured packaging and multiple flavours. That is seen as a quit aid.

Nicorette does not have cartoon vampires on it.

Mr. John Dunne

I am not saying that it does but it comes in bright packages. It comes in flavours.

Mr Dunne's products do.

Mr. John Dunne

Certain products do, yes.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

In reference to the efficacy with regard to smoking cessation, the 2019 Healthy Ireland study showed that vaping was four times more effective than typical nicotine replacement therapies in helping Irish smokers quit. In this regard it shows that vaping is effective as a smoking cessation tool and in Ireland.

The rate of people quitting smoking has fallen.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Yes, but that is due to the fact that for the past year the industry was closed during three lockdowns. We saw a 1% increase in smoker rates and a 1% decrease-----

Vape Business Ireland's position is that to get this rate going again we need more vaping and not less vaping.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

A Eurobarometer study shows Ireland's smoking rate is 5% below the European average and the vaping rate is 5% higher. This is no coincidence. It is because people are using vaping as a tool to quit smoking. There are already 200,000-----

Mr. O'Boyle mentioned his experience of business. He gave the example of a lady who could not find a way to quit smoking. On average, and I do not want him to give personal information, how much does she take every week?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

How much?

How much does she vape every week?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

That changes by the week. She vapes one small bottle of liquid a week, which at maximum could cost €10 in respect-----

Is that 3 mg of nicotine?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Yes.

Mr. O'Boyle sells shots of nicotine to add to those also. She is taking 18 mg-----

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

They start at 18 mg and reduce to zero nicotine. In the case of the lady I referenced she started on 18 mg three years ago.

Does Mr. O'Boyle accept that being addicted to nicotine is separate from being addicted to tobacco?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Absolutely.

Does he accept it would be preferable if that lady was not addicted to nicotine, which she still is?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Nicotine is not the problem.

Mr. O'Boyle's position is that it is okay to be addicted to nicotine.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Only if someone is an ex-smoker. Only for people who are smokers looking to make a transition to a product that is far less harmful. A majority of customers do use-----

Is Mr. O'Boyle speaking about making a transition to a product or that the product is a transition?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

They are transitioning from smoking to vaping. They are moving from a product-----

He sees it as vaping in the long term. Mr. O'Boyle does not see vaping as a transition product to not being addicted to nicotine.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

It depends on the customer. Some people come in and say they want-----

Is it preferable that people are not addicted to nicotine?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

It is preferable they are not addicted to anything. Just like caffeine and other addictive substances it is about what comes with nicotine. With cigarettes it is not nicotine that kills. It is nicotine that addicts. It is the tar and carcinogenics that kill. We have shown that vaping is up to 95% safer than smoking. This is where the balance of risk comes in. My mother was a smoker. She was addicted for 30 years. She could not quit no matter what she did. She loved the nicotine. She did not want to give up. She gave up for health reasons. When I opened the shop I gave my mother a vape and she successfully quit. Now she vapes but not that much. She knows it is there in case she has a craving for a cigarette. This is what I have seen every day over the past three years.

I thank our guests for their presentation. With regard to the figures for teenagers and e-cigarettes, my understanding is that a 2015 study showed that 23% of teenagers used e-cigarettes whereas a study in 2019 showed it was 37%. Teenagers who use e-cigarettes are five times more likely to move on to smoking cigarettes.

How do the witnesses view the challenge in dealing with that? How can the legislation help to deal with that trend? There is a huge increase in the number of teenagers who are moving to electronic cigarettes.

Mr. John Dunne

The first thing that could be put in place very quickly would address the fact that there is no legislation in this country to restrict the products to those who are under the age of 18. Therefore, technically, a 12-year-old can legally buy vaping products in a shop. That is the first thing we need to look at.

Second, if you look closely at those data, you will find that only approximately 4.6% of young people use the product on a regular basis. The majority of those smoked previously. The national average is approximately 4%. That figure is therefore in line with the national average. Similar studies in the UK found that only 1.7% of young people regularly vape in the UK. The majority of those-----

I am concerned about the figure that states that we have moved from 23% to 37%. We are also moving in that the number of young people smoking has gone up again. There is a connection between the two. While Mr. Dunne is talking about legislation, something is still driving it in terms of making it attractive for young people to move to electronic cigarettes. As well as not being able to sell to under-18s, what other restrictions does Mr. Dunne believe need to be put in place in relation to advertising?

Mr. John Dunne

Advertising has to be done in a responsible way. One of the one of the issues is that the vast majority of people who use vaping products, not only here in the State, but around the world, are between the ages of 30 and 55. Unfortunately, in the EU, under the tobacco products directive, advertising is extremely restricted in respect of the messaging we can use. I believe that is confusing for smokers.

As I mentioned in my opening statement, there is an opportunity for the Government to look at something similar to what the New Zealand Government has done. It has come out with specific, scientific-based switching messages. If all of the vaping industry in Ireland was allowed to use only that specific messaging, that would go a long way towards encouraging smokers to make that choice. It would give them the confidence to know that vaping is a better thing to do than smoking. When it comes down to it, we are all looking for the same thing. We are all looking to encourage smokers to either quit, which is optimal, or to do something that is less harmful.

When we look closely at those smoking rates, we find that the majority of the increase was between the ages of 25 and 34, at 21%. Regular use was the highest amongst 35- to 49-year-olds, at 6.7%. It is important that we restrict products to young people. We are currently not doing that.

As for warnings regarding e-cigarettes, does Mr. Dunne accept, for instance, there are now studies from the United States showing that a far higher number of those who use e-cigarettes suffer from asthma than people who have never smoked or who have never used e-cigarettes? My point is there also health risks in using e-cigarettes. While I accept it is a step down from smoking, health risks still come with it.

Mr. John Dunne

As we said, nobody is saying and nobody has ever said that vaping is 100% safe. Nothing that we do in this world is 100% safe. We are saying that you have to look at it as a risk reduction strategy. The Deputy mentioned a US study. As I said earlier, the US market is very different than the market here in Ireland or the EU. It is a currently unregulated market.

I have looked at a study that just came up in November by five British universities. They looked at 58 studies of 500,000 young people aged under 18 in the UK, Canada and the US. Professor Caitlin Notley, from the University of East Anglia's Norwich medical school, stated there is a lot of concern that young people might start vaping because they are attracted to e-liquid flavours, which could potentially lead to them smoking and that they wanted to find out more. Now what they found-----

In relation to health risks, there is a study that shows a raft of warnings over the use of e-cigarettes.

There was a recent finding that electronic cigarettes might increase the odds of erectile dysfunction and of stroke at middle age. That is now showing up in studies. There is also a study on eye conditions, which looks at people who suffer from eye problems. There are a higher number of people with difficulties with their eyesight, as a result of using electronic cigarettes. A whole range of studies show that electronic cigarettes can be harmful, not to everyone, but to a certain group of people, in a number of different areas. Is it not therefore appropriate that there should be health warnings in relation to the use of electronic cigarettes?

That is your last question, Deputy.

Mr. John Dunne

I would like to answer that. If one actually reads those studies, and read down to the final conclusions, the studies do not actually prove that electronic cigarettes cause those. The researchers say that they “may” or “could”. That is the terminology that we find in many headline-grabbing reports. They say that more research needs to be looked at in that sector.

The Deputy is running out of time.

The eye study shows that there is a substantial difference and that there is a greater risk. There are a greater number of people who have eye difficulties as a result of electronic cigarettes.

Mr. John Dunne

I revert to my earlier statement, which is that nobody is saying that vaping is 100% safe. We are saying that when one compares it to smoking, it is a far safer alternative, but it is not 100% safe.

I thank the Deputy and call on Senator Kyne.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before us today. Many areas have been covered.

In relation to the flavourings, is it the witnesses’ contention that basically the flavouring is required, or is certainly advantageous, to weaning people off cigarettes? For active smokers who now wish to give up smoking, flavours will allow that process to be more likely to happen, or they would encourage to people giving up smoking; is that their contention?

Mr. John Dunne

I would agree with that. It is important to understand the journey that smokers make from the time they make the decision to no longer smoke and to do something different. Over the first couple of weeks, they will probably start with a tobacco flavour, because that is what they are used to tasting. However, it is important to note, and vapers tell me this all this time, that they want to differentiate themselves from being a smoker. By vaping a tobacco flavour, all they are doing is reminding themselves every single time they use the device that they are a smoker. When they use flavours - and they use many different flavours at different times of the day - they are not constantly being reminded of that. It takes them away from being a smoker to being a vaper. It is a very different mindset.

The Royal College of Physicians will be before the committee after the suspension. It has provided its opening statement, which states that, “Finland’s 2016 ban on flavours did not result in less smokers using nicotine inhaled products as a quit smoking tool”. Is Mr. Dunne aware of that study? That is from the Royal College of Physicians.

Mr. John Dunne

I would look at an example closer to home. We talked about Estonia earlier on. We can talk for instance about California if one wanted to look at US. California brought in a ban on flavours. Immediately, they saw an increase in smoking rates. We need to be very careful about how we do these things.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

I would like to add that 70% to 75% of my electronic liquid sales to adult vapers are flavoured electronic liquids. I polled many of my different customers. I asked them what impact they thought it would have if they were no longer able to get flavours. Some of them had been vaping for some time. They said that they would have eventually just weaned themselves off. Some who are just starting their vaping journey said that they would not be able to do this, if they were vaping a tobacco flavour. They would therefore more than likely end up back on cigarettes. It is important to be aware that a huge number of adult vapers in Ireland use flavours and rely on flavours to ensure that they stay off tobacco, or that their journey from smoking to vaping is a successful one.

Are there Irish data on flavours and people wishing to quit?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

A European tobacco harm reduction advocate group found that 94.6% of current vapers use non-tobacco flavours. That information came from a study involving between 20,000 and 30,000 adult vapers. That is a huge number of European vapers who use non-tobacco flavours.

The Royal College of Physicians of Ireland state that adolescents who have used nicotine-inhaled products are between three and five times more likely to start smoking compared with adolescents that have never used such products. Is that sufficient evidence to suggest that a ban on flavourings is a health imperative?

Mr. John Dunne

No. I spoke about the report that came out in November 2021 from the five universities in the UK that was based on 58 studies. We did not get to the conclusions, but what they found is that flavours are an important aspect of why vapers use the products. They found no evidence that flavours attract young people to go on to smoking. They found that no adverse effects or harm were caused by using e-liquid vaping products. The study was in collaboration with researchers at University College London, the University of Bristol and University Hospitals Bristol and Weston NHS Foundation Trust. That was published in November 2021 and it looked at 500,000 young people.

When someone comes into his shop, does Mr. O'Boyle ask if they are a current smoker or if they have tried vaping before, or is it just a case of making a sale?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

No, it is not, especially in my store. I get to know nearly every single one of my customers on a name basis. That is why the success rate of people quitting smoking with vaping in my shop is so high. In the past six months, I cannot think of anyone I spoke to who never smoked in the first place. I cannot understand why a person would start vaping if he or she had never smoked. Even the Healthy Ireland study this year showed that only 1% of those who vape were never smokers, which is a tiny proportion of the amount of vapers.

Mr. John Dunne

I will mention one other point. If flavours were not important, we would not see nicotine replacement gum or nicotine lozenges also coming with flavours. There is no tobacco flavoured nicotine gum.

I thank the witnesses.

I also welcome the witnesses. The important point for me is to establish evidence to show that, first, e-cigarettes are not a step away from smoking in the ordinary way and, second, that they are safe products which do not cause harm. It has been stated that no product is guaranteed to be harmless, but insofar as we can establish, we need to be able to find out whether we are moving in the right direction. We must do anything we can to encourage people to stop smoking cigarettes. Such an approach should and could be used. That is positive. It is a good thing. The evidence would appear to be in favour of e-cigarettes. Are we absolutely certain, insofar as we can, that e-cigarettes discourage people from smoking tobacco and that they cause less damage to health than cigarettes?

Mr. John Dunne

Yes, the preponderance of the evidence currently available would point to those conclusions.

Are there incidences where in other jurisdictions other measures, criteria or standards are used in determining whether e-cigarettes are safe?

Mr. John Dunne

What type of criteria is Deputy Durkan thinking of?

Do the same standards apply here as in the UK?

Mr. John Dunne

New Zealand would probably be a good example. It is looking at it in a very pragmatic way as well. They understand that vaping is another successful way to give up smoking, but they also understand that you have to restrict youth access.

The most important step the State could take would be to bring in the restrictions on those under 18 years of age as quickly as possible.

Essentially, what Mr. Dunne is saying is that vaping is not advisable for very young people.

Mr. John Dunne

I would say to anyone who is not an adult, not legally able to buy these products and not a smoker, that they should never take up vaping.

The next point that is important to emphasise is that vaping is not a gateway product. I would like a response to that.

Mr. John Dunne

If we look at the smoking cessation rates in any country in the world and the vaping rates in those countries, there is a correlation between the two. Vaping rates are not increasing in any jurisdiction, even in the US where they claim there is a youth vaping epidemic. If youth vaping was a thing, then the smoking rate would be ticking back up, and it is not. The only reason it ticked back up in that specific time period was that vape shops in the Republic, and also in the UK where they saw the same thing happening, were closed and that education piece was taken away from smokers. As soon as the vape shops opened back up, the number of people smoking went back down again.

Is vaping habit forming?

Mr. John Dunne

Vaping itself could be habit forming, but it is designed for people who are smoking, so they are already consuming nicotine and have done, probably for decades. I used to be a three-pack-a-day smoker. They are moving to a safer form of nicotine consumption.

Given that vaping is habit forming, is there a danger that people who are currently vapers might want to move to cigarette smoking?

Mr. John Dunne

There is no evidence to show a correlation between vaping and moving to smoking cigarettes.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Something I notice is that when a customer who might have quit is with smokers and asks for a pull on a cigarette the overwhelming response is that it is rotten. Once people get their tastebuds back and they get to know the health benefits of vaping, they do not want to smoke. The lady I mentioned in my opening statement suffered from tonsillitis three to four times a year as a result of smoking, and as soon as she started vaping, that went away. She has not had tonsillitis since. She said she would never smoke a cigarette again, that she could not do that. It is overwhelming, especially when you are on the ground and you see it every single day. There is a true difference, health-wise and financially. Not only does it improve your health, but it improves other aspects of your life too. Smokers might not start in a gym or eat as healthily as they could because they think they are already unhealthy due to smoking, but once they start vaping, feel their lung capacity improving and no longer wake up coughing every morning, they start to acknowledge that they could become healthier in other aspects of their life. Every day, I see customers come in with almost a renewed spirit and a new way of looking at life, which is amazing to see.

Does the evidence indicate that the use of fruit flavours is an introduction to smoking? Some evidence suggests that people move from tobacco to different fruit flavours, but is there evidence to suggest that they move back to tobacco?

Mr. John Dunne

Very few vapers who move from vaping the tobacco flavour to fruit and mint flavours go back to the tobacco flavour. That rarely happens, but it does happen sometimes. We also find that vapers use different products at different times. In the morning, they may use a tobacco flavour. At midday they may use mint and they may use a fruit or combination flavour in the evening. Vaping is a very different product that they do not have when they smoke. There is no evidence that the fruit flavours would entice them to go back to smoking. In fact, Nicorette gum, for instance, comes in fruit flavours.

They also contain nicotine.

I have a number of follow-up questions for Mr. O’Boyle. I assume he will agree with his colleague that vaping is not 100% safe.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Absolutely.

Does he agree that addiction to nicotine is not good?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

I do not agree that it is a “Yes” or “No” question. I believe that among non-smokers, addiction to nicotine is not good but----

Does he agree that, for everybody, it is preferable for people not to be using nicotine?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Absolutely, yes.

That is my point. Obviously, I would come at this by supporting measures that would encourage people and enable them to come off their addiction in respect of a range of areas, not just vaping. It has to be said for the purposes of the meeting that. given we are talking about addiction to a product Mr. O’Boyle sells, there is a vested interest here. If there was no addiction, there would be no sales for him.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

It comes down to the fact that there has not been another smoking cessation product that has been as powerful and effective as vaping. That is why I opened my shop. I did so because I saw daily the difference it was making to adult smokers who could not quit with nicotine patches or gum, which also contain nicotine and keep that addiction going. It is not like nicotine is a new substance------

I hear what Mr. O’Boyle is saying but, as we have limited time, my question is whether encouraging more people to be less addicted to nicotine, including vaping products, would impact on his business.

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

It would and it would not. I encourage every customer who comes into my shop and quits smoking to get on a plan to gradually come off nicotine completely or his or her nicotine intake. A person could start on 18 mg, let us say, and wean himself or herself down to 3 mg.

I talked Mr. Dunne through some of the measures that would enable that and Vape Business Ireland was not in favour of them. I wish to pick up on a point that was raised earlier. We have the opening statement of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland, RCPI. It refers to the prohibition on the sale of tobacco products from temporary or moveable premises, counter or point of sale, events where children are present and vending machines. Does Mr. O'Boyle support a prohibition on the sale of vaping products and e-cigarettes in those circumstances?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

I agree to the majority of them apart from point of sale, purely because it is the area in which, especially in my shop, one gets a level of education. The retailer gets to explain to the customer what the product is. It is not like a person walks into a vape shop and there is one vape there. I have more than 30 different starter kits because, as the official from the Department of Health stated, every single smoker or vaper is neurologically different and no one-size-fits-all approach works when it comes to quitting smoking.

I refer to the measures that have been recommended by the RCPI, the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society. As I see it, those organisations are coming at this purely from a public health perspective. There seems to be a sharp difference between how they see it and how Vape Business Ireland sees it.

I have a question on flavouring in the minute and a half I have left. Obviously, there are numerous studies on flavouring and one can take an à la carte approach in terms of sources and citing some of them but not all of them, as is the case in the context of any issue. Is it not the case, however, that the EU Scientific Committee on Health, Environmental and Emerging Risks found "strong evidence that flavours have a relevant contribution for attractiveness of use of electronic cigarette and initiation" and specifically so when it comes to children?

Mr. John Dunne

That statement is absolutely correct but it is also correct for adults. That is why people stay on vaping. It is why people make the transition. The taste of tobacco is probably one of the worst tastes in the world. When one moves from smoking to vaping, one quickly realises how nasty it tastes.

Okay. The RCPI, however, cites a 2018 study that seems to be fairly comprehensive. It is a systemic review of consumer preference for e-cigarette attributes. The written submission provided by RCPI states, "Adolescents are more likely to initiate nicotine inhaled products use through flavoured products relative to other age groups."

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. That was a study of 19 young people, if I remember right. The study to which I referred looked at 500,000 young people. There is a significant difference between those samples.

I do not think Oireachtas Members would pay attention to any study or political poll that is carried out unless it samples at least 1,000 people.

There is a significant amount of wisdom in what the RCPI is saying. I put a lot of faith in what the Irish Cancer Society and Irish Heart Foundation say as well. Obviously, we had to take big steps, which my party and I supported, in respect of cigarettes through the years, such as the ban on indoor use, the restriction on advertising and the requirement for plain packaging. All of those measures were resisted. People from the industry sat where Mr. Dunne and Mr. O'Boyle are sitting now and made exactly the same arguments, but we made those decisions and they worked. I certainly lean more heavily towards people who are obviously advocating for public health when it comes to informing my approach on this issue, notwithstanding the genuine arguments that have been made by Mr. Dunne and Mr. O'Boyle. What they are saying is in good faith, but they have to accept that, from my perspective, public health has to come first.

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. However, there is a lack of consensus on this issue in terms of the viewpoints of sister organisations. For example, there is a significant difference between the viewpoints on vaping of Cancer Research UK and the Irish Cancer Society. Those organisations are in the same business of public health. It confuses me that there is such a difference between NGOs in this country and the same type of NGOs in the UK, for instance. Irish people are not genetically different from people in those countries.

I make the point that I cited a European study. That is not just a British study; it is a study from across the European Union. The Irish Cancer Society, the Irish Heart Foundation and the RCPI all have a very strong track record in advocating for good public health and reducing people's dependency on products that are addictive and damaging to their health. As was accepted, these are not products that are 100% safe. One can argue that is also true in the case of certain other products. I get that as well. I hear the argument that it is not just vaping. One could make the same argument in respect of many other products that are for sale, including alcohol, but we are dealing today with e-cigarettes and we have strong representations from medical and clinical experts as well as health advocates who are saying we need to do more in respect of advertising, the sale of flavoured products and sale to those under 18, which is where we are in agreement. I thank the witnesses for their attendance.

I refer to an area on which we have not touched. There is general consensus among most of the groups which come before us that there should not be access for young people aged under 18. One of the difficulties is that many of the products are bought online. Mr. Dunne or Mr. O'Boyle said they are looking at other jurisdictions. Do they have any recommendations in that regard? At the moment, it is basically a box-ticking exercise that asks whether one is over 18. Do our guests have any recommendations in respect of how we can stop young people getting these products? Another group appeared before the committee previously and its representatives were asked how they know people are over 18 and so on. One of the representatives said he or she might know the house. What we are discussing here, however, is legislation for the whole State. What recommendations do our guests have in respect of that area? Do they consider it an important element of the proposed Bill?

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. It should be part of the eventual Bill that there be a process to electronically check the age of the purchaser. We referred to the UK. Such a process is in place there. Online retailers have to be able to verify, either electronically or manually, that the person is over the age of 18. After watching the meeting last week, I spoke to a company that is actually in a position to offer that service in Ireland. A challenge it identified is that there are certain ways it checks the age electronically in the UK that may not be available in Ireland. It is confident, however, that it could have that service up and running in Ireland within a week. I am happy to share its information with the committee if it would like to contact it.

We can certainly follow up on that. Does Mr. Dunne have any other recommendations? I am not aware of how retailers would do that. Mr. Dunne might advise on that.

Mr. John Dunne

In England, they can check bank records, driving licence records or council tax records. Those are all databases where users are over the age of 18. If they do not appear on those databases, that flags that the sale to that purchaser needs further attention. Most retailers I know would not sell a product if a sale to a purchaser was flagged but some of them would follow up on that manually with the purchaser and request further information such as a driver’s licence. Another important aspect is that retailers in England will not and cannot legally sell their products to anybody who they have not age-verified. For instance, if somebody is age-verified under the name Joe Bloggs but the order comes in under a different name or with an instruction to please ship to a different address, that is called proxy purchasing, which is not allowed. The name must match the person who has been verified.

I presume there is legislation covering the approval process for the products imported into Ireland. How does Mr. Dunne envisage that this will develop? Are there ways to tighten up on products being imported from outside the EU that might be harmful? Has the industry any recommendations on that?

Mr. John Dunne

It is frustrating for retailers here that there is no easy way to tell whether a product is registered in Ireland. For instance, in UK retailers can check the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, MRHA, website and insert an European Community identification, EC-ID, number, which is the specific code for each product or they can check a product by manufacturer, brand name etc. and it will indicate if the product is approved. Unfortunately, retailers in this State do not have such a database but generally they will check that database because most manufacturers will put their products on all the databases for Ireland in the EU as well in the UK. If it is listed on that database, it should be okay in six months' time to be put on the market in Ireland. I would recommend that the Government consider establishing a database here where retailers and consumers could check if the products they are buying are registered.

Is there a concern about the elements in vaping products? Should they be listed on the product?

Mr. John Dunne

When a company puts its registration through the tobacco product directive, TPD, it must disclose all the ingredients of its products. That is highly regulated. Those ingredients are displayed on the packaging of the products purchased by consumers. The consumers are well aware of the ingredients in the products.

Should a ban similar to the smoking ban in pubs and restaurants apply to vaping?

Mr. John Dunne

We must be very careful with that. We do not want to make smokers think vaping is just as bad for them as smoking. By introducing plain packaging and overly restricting vaping products, all we are doing is reinforcing a negative message about vaping to the effect that vaping is just as bad as smoking and, therefore, one might as well just keep smoking. We must encourage smokers to move away from doing something which we know potentially could kill them. They are ingesting 4,500 chemicals a year. Smoking kills 6,000 people in Ireland every year. We are saying there are better alternatives, whether it be quitting by the cold turkey method, using nicotine replacement therapy, NRT, products, or using vaping products, and then we should let the consumer make that choice. We are not saying everybody should vape but it is another tool in the public health war chest for people to use.

I will bring Deputy Durkan in to have the last word.

Is it accepted that there has been an increase in tobacco smoking in recent years?

Mr. Eoin O'Boyle

Yes. That is attributed to the pandemic. With an increase in stress levels and the fact that vape shops were closed, we saw a 1% increase in smoking rates and a 1% decrease in vaping rates. There is a strong correlation that when vaping rates increase, smoking rates decrease, which shows that vaping is an effective smoking cessation tool.

Mr. John Dunne

Another point is that some articles were published at the start of the pandemic indicating smoking or vaping may be a way of spreading Covid. I am sure there was much confusion and angst about that for smokers. The UK found a similar blip in its smoking rates but following the pandemic and the reopening of the vape shops that has now corrected itself.

There is a very distinctive smell from smoking in an area in general. Would people who were concerned about their health not have been equally concerned about nicotine being a conveyer of the virus?

Mr. John Dunne

The research conducted on that shows there is no evidence to indicate it is a conductor. As we would all do now, we would have a different viewpoint on how we engage in public. It would behove those who vape to be cognisant of what is going on around them and who is around them. As a courtesy to others, it probably would not be advisable to be vaping around others in the same way as people would not be coughing and sneezing around others.

Has it been established beyond doubt that vaping does not re-encourage people towards tobacco smoking?

Mr. John Dunne

People have been vaping for almost 12 years now. If there was any evidence of that, we would have seen an uptake in smoking. We have not seen that in any jurisdiction anywhere in the world.

We have seen an uptake in smoking but it is attributed to the virus.

Mr. John Dunne

Correct. It is attributed to many factors around that time that contributed to that.

Would it not be advisable to separate that information and extrapolate from it if was truly the lockdown that caused that uptake or was it the use of smoking tobacco substitutes?

Mr. John Dunne

Absolutely. Much research could be done on that. It is not something that just happened in this State. It happened in other countries where vaping shops were closed. In those markets where vaping shops were left open and deemed essential, they did not see that same uptake.

I thank the Chairman.

I thank both witnesses for coming in. It was a useful exchange with good contributions and quite a number of questions. I appreciate the time the witnesses took to attend.

I propose to suspend the sitting for five minutes to bring in our second group of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 12.28 p.m. and resumed at 12.33 p.m.

I welcome from the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland, RCPI, Professor Des Cox, chair of the policy group and consultant in paediatric respiratory medicine, and from the Institute of Public Health in Ireland, IPH, Dr. Helen McAvoy, director of policy.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such request. I call Professor Cox to make his opening remarks.

Professor Des Cox

I thank the Chairperson for the invitation to appear before the committee. I am a consultant in paediatric respiratory medicine at Children’s Health Ireland, Crumlin. I represent the policy group on tobacco of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland. The RCPI is a postgraduate medical training college with a membership of over 12,000 doctors across 29 different specialties in more than 90 countries.

In addition to leading in training and postgraduate education of specialist doctors, RCPI’s members and fellows offer a clinical perspective and expert knowledge to inform and influence national policy on public health. The RCPI policy group on tobacco was established in 2014. Since 2020, we and the IPH have collaborated to increase the impact of research and advocacy in the area of tobacco use.

Tobacco smoking remains the biggest long-term public health issue in Ireland. Smoking causes over 6,000 deaths and 1,000 hospitalisations each year. Every day doctors and other healthcare professionals have to pick up the pieces – breaking bad news to patients and their families about cancer caused by smoking, arranging care for preventable illnesses caused by smoking, such as heart attacks and stroke, and supporting people living with ongoing disability, such as chronic lung disease. Everyone has seen and supported healthcare professionals on the front line tackling the Covid-19 epidemic. We must remember that healthcare professionals in Ireland are still on the front line tackling a continuing epidemic of harm caused by smoking. We have a target of 5% smoking prevalence by 2025, as set in the 2013 Tobacco Free Ireland action plan. Despite declines in prevalence – from 23% in 2015 to 18% in 2021 - there are concerns that progress is now stalling. Worryingly, there has been a slight increase in children tobacco smoking since 2015.

Nicotine inhaled products are commonly used today in Ireland, often promoted as a safer alternative to tobacco smoking. When doctors recommend or provide healthcare, we need to have confidence that the care is safe and effective. Patients expect nothing less. This is the standard against which nicotine inhaled products need to be assessed. What we know about these products from independent scientific studies, including randomised controlled trials, and in Ireland from a review by the Health Research Board, is that they are no more effective than approved, regulated, safe and clinically sound nicotine replacement therapies. Studies also show that nicotine inhaled products are a gateway to tobacco smoking. Adolescents who ever used nicotine inhaled products are between three and five times more likely to start smoking compared with adolescents who have never used nicotine inhaled products.

Numerous scientific studies demonstrate that nicotine inhaled products have harmful effects. Although they contain fewer harmful substances when compared with tobacco smoking, research on their long-term health effects, particularly from animal studies, suggests that substances contained in these products can cause brain, heart and lung damage. To enhance the health gains of this Bill, we would like the committee to consider our recommendations for modification to the existing heads of Bill, recommendation 1, and for future amendments or legislation, recommendations 2 to 4.

Our first recommendation is inclusion of nicotine inhaled products under selected existing heads of Bill. In respect of the prohibition on the sale of tobacco products from temporary or moveable premises, head 16, counter or point of sale, head 17, events where children are present, head 21, and vending machines, head 35, we recommend extending these measures to include nicotine inhaling products. As we do not wish to delay the passing of the Bill, we recommend that measures be added as amendments to the Bill in the near future.

Our second recommendation is to increase the prohibition of the sale of tobacco and nicotine inhaled products from 18 to 21 years of age. Countries such as the US and Singapore have implemented a Tobacco 21 policy and recent evidence suggests that tobacco smoking reduced among 18- to 20-year-olds as a result.

Recommendation 3 is to prohibit the sale of nicotine inhaled products flavourings apart from tobacco flavoured products. Adolescents are more likely to initiate nicotine inhaled products use through flavoured products relative to other age groups. While adults may also enjoy flavours, the risks of nicotine inhaled products initiation in adolescents and young adults outweigh the benefits of ex-smokers using flavoured products. Finland’s 2016 ban on flavours did not result in fewer smokers using nicotine inhaled products as a quitting tool.

Recommendation 4 is that the same restrictions on advertising and marketing of tobacco products should be applied to nicotine inhaled products. Currently, point of sale and billboard advertisements have the potential to attract non-smokers to try nicotine inhaled products. Marketing across social media platforms for nicotine inhaled products remains unregulated. It often appears that these products are being sold as an alternative to tobacco smoking rather than solely as a stop smoking aid.

We wholeheartedly support this proposed Bill as an important milestone in tobacco control legislation in Ireland. Enacting this proposed legislation into law would align Ireland with many of our counterparts across the EU and with the UK. It will lead to a reduced prevalence of tobacco smoking and deliver a significant child protection measure against nicotine addiction. We encourage the committee to pass the proposed Bill without delay and also to consider our additional recommendations.

I declare no conflict of interest personally, or on behalf of RCPI, in respect of any direct or indirect financial assistance or funding or any professional relationship with the tobacco industry or any entity working to further its interests.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present our views today. The Institute of Public Health, IPH, and the RCPI tobacco policy group submitted joint written positions on this proposed legislation in January 2020 and in June 2021. Our statement today incorporates content from those and some updates. Like the RCPI, as a signatory to the framework convention on tobacco control we declare no conflict of interest personally, or on behalf of IPH, in terms of involvement with the tobacco industry.

The measures outlined in the general scheme make both tobacco and e-cigarettes less accessible to children and enhance Government oversight of the supply of these addictive products. The proposed Bill aligns with the Tobacco Free Ireland policy which seeks to denormalise tobacco use, protect children and work towards a tobacco endgame. It is proportionate and based on sound principles and evidence. Tobacco causes enormous harm to both children and adults; it harms them physically, psychologically and financially. Tobacco also causes significant harm to the environment and to the Exchequer. The costs of loss of productivity and premature death due to tobacco in Ireland were estimated at €711 million in 2016.

With regard to Part 2 of the general scheme, which allows for the development of a licence system for the retail sale of tobacco and nicotine inhaling products, these align with what the framework convention on tobacco control tells us to do, which is to act on supply side reduction provisions for sales to and by minors. More than 60% of 15- to 16-year-olds in Ireland reported that they think it would be either fairly easy or very easy to obtain cigarettes. Clearly, better systems are needed to address the supply channels for children and young people, and a simple register of retailers, which was set up in legislation in 2009, is no longer sufficient to support the approaches that are needed. Under a new licensing system, compliance and enforcement efforts will be better supported. We will better understand the retail environments for tobacco and e-cigarettes and that will make for better policy and practice in the longer term. The proposed annual licence fee will benefit the Exchequer and provide a revenue stream to support the crucial work of the environmental health service in supporting compliance. We know from test purchasing conducted by the HSE that approximately one in ten sales are non-compliant in terms of verification of age, so there is still a lot to do in terms of the supply side to minors.

Parts 3, 4 and 5 of the proposed Bill relate to restrictions on the sale of tobacco and nicotine inhaling products, including compliance, penalties and proceedings. The measures build on existing legislation that has prohibited tobacco marketing, got rid of point-of-sale advertising of tobacco products and mandated health warnings and standardised packaging. Tobacco is not an ordinary product – it is very addictive and toxic. It should not be sold from vending machines or mobile containers or at events or places intended for children. We strongly support the prohibition of sales of e-cigarettes to under 18-year-olds. All reasonable measures must be applied to ensure children are not exposed to nicotine, which is highly addictive and predisposes them to become either regular vapers, smokers or dual users. Given the conclusions of the evidence reviews published by the Health Research Board, we recommend extending heads 16, 17 and 21 to include nicotine inhaling products. These are the heads relating to the sale of products from temporary or moveable premises, ensuring sales happen at a counter or point of sale only, and prohibition of sales at places or events primarily intended for children. We believe these will provide additional safeguards to minors, alongside the establishment of a minimum legal age of sale for e-cigarettes.

In our written submission, we raised the possibility of raising the minimum legal age of sale of tobacco products to 21 years. There is convincing evidence that this would reduce the numbers of children and young people trying tobacco and subsequently becoming regular smokers.

We urge members consider options to progress this, if not within this Bill, then through other legislative instruments such as a separate amendment to the Public Health (Tobacco) Act of 2002.

With regard to Part 6 of the current Bill, we endorse the complete prohibition of self-service vending machines for tobacco and nicotine-inhaling products. We encourage members to follow the lead of many other European countries that have already banned those machines. Northern Ireland banned this practice a decade ago with no difficulty. An evaluation was published on it which noted that prior to the introduction of their ban, 14% of 11- to 16-year-old children in Northern Ireland who obtained cigarettes reported getting them from vending machines.

Irish legislation introduced in 2009 prohibited self-service vending machines except in licensed premises and registered clubs. It is regrettable that the exception made for licensed premises is still in place over a decade later. It is perhaps a cautionary tale on including exceptions within legislation, as they tend to hang around much longer than we think. Locating self-service vending machines for tobacco is a business model that is way past its time and a black spot on our good track record for tobacco control. The machine itself is a de facto form of advertising and promotion of tobacco products. Positioning them in places where alcohol is consumed facilitates ease of access to tobacco, including for smokers who are trying to quit. We strongly caution against accepting any alternatives to a complete ban on the machines that may be presented to members.

In conclusion and for final observations, we welcome the Bill and recognise its contribution to the existing set of tobacco control legislation and the Tobacco-Free Ireland policy. There have been significant delays in progressing this Bill along with other legislation, partly due to the pandemic and also, when it initially came out, due to some changes in government. There is a need to now to apply priority and pace to the rest of the legislative process. We need to catch up with much of the rest of Europe in bans on vending machines and the minimum legal age of sale for e-cigarettes. I caution that parties with a commercial interest in the sale of tobacco and nicotine-containing products routinely employ tactics to subvert, delay and block regulation, including sowing conflicts within governments between departments of health, business, trade, and environment.

The volume and variety of nicotine inhaling devices on the market has increased. This has been accompanied by commercial innovations on packaging, flavouring, marketing, retail strategy and the use of health claims. There is a need to decide on further regulations on nicotine-inhaling devices, if not within this Bill, then following it. There is a tension between just getting this Bill over the line and done because we have been waiting for it for a very long time versus introducing all of the regulatory measures that need to keep up with the commercial market.

The industry is diversifying its product range all the time to skirt around regulatory measures and to seek to reassure customers with unproven claims of lower risks to health. For example, we now see chewable nicotine pouches marketed in Ireland and a new range of heat-not-burn tobacco products. Therefore, there is further need for regulatory options relating in particular to the oral nicotine products that are now on sale in supermarkets.

The Department of Health and the HSE are facing challenges in directing people who smoke to the very best supports to stop smoking. We know what those are through the clinical guidelines but we cannot lose sight of the goals of Tobacco-Free Ireland and the tobacco endgame. A more ambitious and more targeted approach to tobacco- and nicotine-containing products is possible. This Bill is a very good start, but we also need commitment to a long-term programme of legislative reforms building on, but going beyond, the provisions in this specific Bill.

I thank Dr. McAvoy. It is very helpful that both contributions addressed the Bill and suggested amendments. That is very helpful for us as legislators.

I thank Dr. McAvoy and Professor Cox for their contributions. It goes without saying that both of them would encourage people to give up smoking and do not want young people to start smoking. On that basis, have nicotine-inhaled products any role in getting people to give up smoking? Would Dr. McAvoy recommend them in her professional capacity to some or any smokers?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

The HSE has just published national clinical guidelines for smoking cessation. It has gone through a very detailed process involving the national clinical effectiveness committee, which has reviewed all of the evidence and concluded that the most robust, complete and stable evidence relates to a combination of approaches, which are behavioural and psychological support and the use of approved medicinal pharmaceutical aids, including nicotine replacement therapy.

The evidence around e-cigarettes is much lower and it compares unfavourably with that other information. The best evidence is to engage with the State-funded statutory support services offered through quit.ie, which are free and funded by the Government and backed up by the strongest amount of evidence. People who vape are absolutely welcome at the door of quit.ie. Whether someone vapes, uses tobacco, uses cannabis or dual uses, everyone is welcome at the door of the HSE to engage in the statutory stop smoking services that are most strongly supported by evidence. When somebody goes into a vaping store, I cannot guarantee that he or she gets the correct behavioural counselling support that we know is also needed to help people quit. It is the combination of those two things. There is a very strong training programme within the HSE that ensures that all stop smoking advisers know how to support people in terms of behavioural approaches and the psychology and counselling that is needed as well. We know that works and that is what we are sticking with.

Professor Des Cox

We would wholeheartedly agree with that stance as well. The Health Research Board, HRB, completed a review in 2020, which was a systematic analysis of a number of large studies. It concluded that there was no evidence that e-cigarettes were successful at helping people get off tobacco smoking compared to the standard nicotine replacement therapies. Therefore, we would completely agree that the evidence for e-cigarettes as a quitting tool is lacking.

As the witnesses know, Vape Business Ireland was in earlier, and I quoted some of Dr. McAvoy and Professor Cox's commentary to it, so I will do the same now to them. Vape Business Ireland stated in its opening contribution that experts from King’s College London and Queen Mary University of London show that vaping products are around 95% less harmful than smoking and Public Health England has consistently maintained this position in its annual evidence updates. In addition, the findings have been backed by the Royal College of Physicians and leading anti-tobacco NGOs. Would Professor Cox and Dr. McAvoy concur with that?

Professor Des Cox

I will answer that. In regard to the public health statement that nicotine-inhaled products are 95% safer than tobacco, it is incorrect. It is based on a study that was published in 2013 and was done by a panel of experts and there was no scientific basis to that figure. There is no science to back it up. The truth of the matter is that nobody knows how harmful these products are. Again, to refer back to the HRB review from 2020, it published a very large literature map which demonstrated that there are numerous harmful effects of e-cigarettes. In regard to the UK, the Senator referred to Public Health England. That statement is no longer on its website. It is a statement that is commonly used and brought out, but it is actually incorrect. As I mentioned, there are other reviews of e-cigarettes which demonstrate that they have short-term and potential long-term harms.

I thank Professor Cox for that very important contribution on that point from Vape Business Ireland. The main concern I have about the Bill is in relation to flavours. Obviously, intuitively, one would think that flavours would induce people to start vaping and it presumably makes it easier. Also, one could argue that it would be an inducement to those who are smoking to give up. That is the crux that I see in relation to decisions that we have to make on flavours. How would Professor Cox respond to that? Perhaps he already did in his opening comments, citing the HSE or Healthy Ireland.

Professor Des Cox

In respect of flavours, as stated in our opening statement, we have supported a ban on flavours and that is because there is evidence that adolescents who use e-cigarettes are three to five times more likely to go on to use tobacco products. Therefore, it is a gateway. It has been demonstrated in some studies that there is strong evidence that the flavours are implicated in the development of the attractiveness of e-cigarettes as devices. A number of countries across the EU have already sought to introduce a ban on flavouring and we would support that as well. For us as a group and for me, particularly, as a paediatrician, I would have grave concerns about adolescents using nicotine-inhaled products and becoming addicted to nicotine because of the harmful effects.

The idea behind a tobacco-free Ireland is that we should be protecting children from the dangers of tobacco and nicotine-inhaled products. Our group feels that the best way of doing this is a ban on any flavouring other than tobacco flavour. It is better to protect children. Ex-smokers will still have access to e-cigarettes that are tobacco-flavoured.

Does Professor Cox accept that vaping products are not safe?

Professor Des Cox

Yes.

Does he accept that people who use e-cigarettes and vaping products, by and large, have an addiction to nicotine?

Professor Des Cox

Yes.

Does he accept that there is a public health risk involved in using vaping products and e-cigarettes?

Professor Des Cox

Yes, there is.

Would he accept that there is health damage to individuals through the use of vaping products?

Professor Des Cox

Yes.

I want to look at some of the RCPI's recommendations, which I support. I will address some other recommendations from the Irish Cancer Society to see whether Professor Cox would support them. One is that we would ban flavoured e-cigarettes. Is that something Professor Cox would support?

Professor Des Cox

That is our group's position. We would support a ban on flavouring.

What about extending tobacco advertising restrictions to e-cigarettes?

Professor Des Cox

We believe the exact same restrictions on advertising and marketing should be applied to nicotine-inhaled products.

What about plain packaging?

Professor Des Cox

Yes, we would support that.

It seems the RCPI is fully on board with what the Irish Cancer Society and the Irish Heart Foundation are calling for in terms of strengthening this Bill. The RCPI is not against any provisions in the Bill. It is that it would like to see the Bill enhanced and strengthened in those areas? Is that correct?

Professor Des Cox

Absolutely.

If I read her opening statement correctly, Dr. McAvoy took a different approach. She stated there is obviously an urgency regarding bringing in the Bill as it is and we could look at other issues thereafter. She talks about packaging, flavouring, marketing, retail strategy and other areas. Why take this approach when this is pre-legislative scrutiny? We have an opportunity, if the Oireachtas sees fit, to make changes now so we do not have to wait. We know how difficult it is to get legislation passed. It can take an awfully long time. We have been waiting for this Bill for a long time. While Dr. McAvoy says that she sees an urgency in getting this Bill passed, would it not be preferable for us to deal with some of the issues around packaging, flavouring, marketing and retail strategy in this Bill by way of amendments, as supported by her colleague but also by the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

My concern was about the legislative process and whether this was going to add more time to the legislative process or involve having to notify matters to Europe. We are ten years behind Northern Ireland when it comes to banning vending machines. There is a tension between getting these basic measures over the line and the additional things we need to do. I am not an expert on the legislative process. Perhaps it is possible to do all of that in the context of this Bill or perhaps it is better to commit to just getting this over the line and then-----

It is not a criticism. I understand the position taken by Dr. McAvoy. Obviously we all want to see the legislation as proposed passed. For those of us who want to strengthen it, there is an opportunity to strengthen it because following this process, we will have to publish a report where we deliberate as members of the committee. We can make recommendations. If it was possible to amend the Bill to go further in some areas, particularly regarding a ban on flavouring, would Dr. McAvoy support doing so if it would not delay implementation for too long?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

Yes, that is something I would support.

We heard from witnesses from the industry earlier. I put it to them that they obviously have a vested interest in selling their products and that the sale of their products depends on people being addicted to them. If, therefore, we introduce measures that will lessen people's dependence and help them to come off their addiction, the industry will make less money. There is an obvious vested interest there.

From a medical perspective, does Professor Cox believe that the measures as proposed by the Irish Cancer Society and the Irish Heart Foundation regarding plain packaging and a ban on flavouring and marketing are good public health measures?

Professor Des Cox

Absolutely. That is really important. The object of all this is to help people get off smoking tobacco. We believe we should be looking to the proven, safe and effective measures rather than something like e-cigarettes, where the evidence is not there. As I mentioned earlier, there is a review that shows that these are harmful. The degree of this harm and whether it is short or long-term are still unknown. We must remember that it took about 30 years for us to really realise the true impact of what happened with tobacco products.

What about the argument the industry would make - and I am only putting the argument as the industry's representatives put it to us this morning - that if we ban flavouring, this will essentially make it more difficult for adults who are using vaping to come off cigarettes?

Professor Des Cox

Finland introduced this measure. A recent article in a large peer-reviewed journal concluded that adult ex-smokers who were using e-cigarettes as a quit tool did not decrease their use of it. I am just quoting evidence here. That is what we must base our decisions and recommendations on. Throughout this process, we must look at evidence rather than anecdotal or hearsay evidence.

I do not know if the witnesses saw the previous session.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

I saw some of it.

Obviously some of the conversations are repeated from previous sessions. There has been a lot of discussion around our rates of smoking and the levelling of the decline in smoking, which would have happened after the smoking ban. The position of the industry representatives in the previous session was that Covid meant that vaping was less accessible. Someone could not walk into a shop and get vaping products and, therefore, one of the reasons smoking had started to either stop declining or increase was because there was not enough access to vaping. Some of the research that was being quoted to us dates from 2015 onwards, which does not align with the Covid period. I put it to Dr. McAvoy that this is what is being told to Members of the Oireachtas - that there is an interaction between Covid and access to vaping and those numbers declining. The position of the industry representatives is that we need more vaping, not less, to reduce the numbers of people smoking. What is Dr. McAvoy's reaction to that position?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

I do not believe that to be the case. I think there were lots of different changes relating to smoking during the pandemic. The Social Impact of COVID-19 Survey released by the CSO, which looked at people smoking, showed that smokers were also very frightened during the pandemic because they knew the damage done by smoking was putting them into a group of people who were at higher risk of having a negative outcome from an infection. I think that did drive some quite attempts as well. The access people had to the State's stop smoking services and their local pharmacy and social support networks decreased as well. The HSE worked very hard to move to remote consultations with smokers seeking to quit and invested a lot of time and energy to try to improve access but not everyone is able to access a remote stop smoking adviser or was confident enough-----

We were all stressed out over Covid.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

Everyone was stressed out over Covid. People were also working from home.

We have a workplace smoking ban, which means smokers do not have the opportunity to smoke wherever and whenever they like. This reduces the amount that people smoke. I have not seen any convincing evidence of a causal relationship between reduced access to vaping shops and rates of smoking.

Would Professor Cox agree?

Professor Des Cox

Absolutely. There is no correlation.

I will touch on something that Deputy Cullinane raised. During these conversations and the pre-legislative scrutiny process, we have talked a lot about the move away from tobacco and tobacco addiction, but we have talked less about addiction to nicotine in and of itself. In the last session, the use of the word "transition" came up in the sense of smokers transitioning from a tobacco product to an inhaling product. However, inhaling products are not necessarily identified as products that transition the smoker away from addiction to nicotine. I raise this in the context of how the use of cartoon characters, bright, colourful packaging, and flavouring affect young people. I am making the comparison because we have talked about other aids. I do not want to say "Nicorette" because I know I am not allowed to use brand names.

It has been said-----

I wish to refer to products without using brand names. Is there good evidence to suggest people use other aids that provide nicotine for a long time after they quit smoking or other tobacco products? Are the aids for life?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

They can be for some people. The challenge is that in the studies that compared the use of e-cigarettes with other forms of nicotine replacement therapy, NRT, many people were still vaping at the end by comparison with those who used oral NRT and moved off it. If you are still addicted to nicotine, you are still vulnerable to returning to tobacco. That is really the concern we have. People who use e-cigarettes may even be dual-using at the end, so they are not even effectively reducing the risk of all the tobacco-related diseases because-----

They might be vaping indoors and smoking outdoors.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

If you smoke only two or three cigarettes a week, unfortunately that does not give you the risk reduction for tobacco-related diseases that we would like. Even at two or three cigarettes per week, you will still have quite bit of risk for tobacco-related disease. It can take up to ten or 15 years to return to the risk level of a non-smoker. Therefore, the dual-use picture is of genuine concern to us. More cynical people than I might say that is part of the business model. There is genuine concern that we will not achieve the harm-reduction effect if so many people are dual-using the products.

Professor Des Cox

In the commonly quoted paper that compares e-cigarettes with nicotine replacement, it is noted that a year after the study 80% of e-cigarette users were still using e-cigarette products. They were still addicted to nicotine, whereas, among people on NRT, the figure was 10% or 15%. I cannot remember the exact percentage.

That is the number I am looking for. That is a really important point.

Professor Des Cox

The Deputy's point about transition also relates to a concern of ours. We do not feel there is a sufficient body of evidence to show people can successfully transition from e-cigarettes to nothing, whereas there is evidence for NRT and other safe, effective products that have been shown to help people to quit tobacco. I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. McAvoy's point about dual use. It is a big concern of ours. Tobacco smoking at any level is unacceptable for people's health. There is a public health risk. People who dual-use are at risk of developing more problems in the form of cardiovascular and pulmonary disease down the track.

I have been slightly shocked. I am not a vaper and have never looked at the websites to see cartoon characters and the likes of blueberry, strawberry and watermelon flavours. Somehow these had passed me by. The packages often look like little lollipop packages. I can absolutely see why these would be attractive to younger people.

If we accept that somehow there is a reason to have cartoon characters and strawberry watermelon flavours but also the position of some industry representatives to the effect that they do not want to sell to children despite the existence of cartoon characters and strawberry watermelon flavours, it implies there should be some kind of negotiation as to what is acceptable. When do we have the cute little vampire and when do we not? Who decides that? Consider the circumstances that arise if we accept that these marketing practices should be allowed or say that the likes of Tweety Bird should not be allowed while a vampire may be okay. Is there any example of where these kinds of decisions are being made by medical professionals or people in the public health sphere, whereby they are trying to work out whether a certain vampire product is for over-18s and another vampire product is not?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

We have looked at some of that regarding alcohol marketing. There are some measures in the Public Health (Alcohol) Act that try to pin down what we mean when we talk about advertising that targets children. The data we see show that one in ten children under the age of 13 has tried an e-cigarette and that around 16% to 18% of those between 15 and 16 are current users. We may say we need the minimum legal age of sale to be 18 but we must ask whether that will be enough to reduce the appeal and accessibility of the products to children. The minimum legal age is a really good start. It is important to have a legal rule stipulating that products should not be sold to people under 18, but clearly children under 18 are getting them and finding them very appealing and interesting. According to a study, when children are asked why they have tried them, two thirds say they were just curious. The adolescent brain is a challenge at times. Sensation seeking, risk-taking, peer pressure and marketing are all in the mix. These are all the things we need to think about when regulating these products if we want to reduce use. The minimum legal age of sale is useful but I do not believe it is enough. The other aspects, concerning branding, the use of imagery and so on, must also be considered.

A brand of tobacco whose name I will refrain from using used a cartoon character for many years in its marketing, television advertising, billboards and so on. It continues to do so through other means. We need to learn from this because we are starting to see many similarities. We also had flavoured tobacco. We introduced legislation to remove menthol tobacco only two years ago. It is the same thing. Menthol in tobacco disguised its flavour. Having an easier starter product was part of the model. It was found later that it made it harder to quit. Flavoured products were used to target certain subgroups of the population. For example, the African-American community in the United States was very strongly targeted with menthol tobacco and so on. Therefore, there are lots of lessons to be learned from what went before in respect of tobacco and flavouring.

Professor Des Cox

Let me come in on that. Ninety percent of adult smokers took their first smoke below the age of 18. The tactics in the past were to hook teenagers. That is the playbook of the tobacco industry. The European School Survey Project on Alcohol and Other Drugs, ESPAD, surveyed just under 2,000 teenagers aged between 15 and 16. It was found that between 2015 and 2019, there was a 50% increase in e-cigarette use. This is a problem. People who quote the Healthy Ireland survey should note it is not designed to rule out e-cigarette use. A number of other surveys show that teenagers are experimenting and that we need to protect children in that regard.

I thank our guests for their contributions. Let me start with the figure they have given for the number of deaths as a direct result of smoking.

Obviously, this is spread over a period of time. Is there any indication the level of smoking has reduced in this country and that the number of deaths will come down likewise? I ask this because most recent studies show the greater the number of young people smoking e-cigarettes, the more likely they are to go on to ordinary cigarettes. From that point of view, although we are considering legislation, do we need to be more proactive with young people about the dangers of e-cigarettes?

Professor Des Cox

The harmful effects of tobacco are obviously very well documented, and we all know we need to protect people against the harmful effects of tobacco. Our rates are declining, but again, there has been a stalling of the numbers in recent years. To quote the ESPAD study from 2019, the decline in smoking in children had halted for the first time in 25 years at 14% and it actually increased in boys to 16%, while it was 13% for girls. There is a concern. This is probably multifactorial due to the Covid-19 pandemic. Our group believes tobacco control is probably not as sexy and people look to other public health measures, but it is still the most devastating and problematic chronic public health issue in this country and many other countries. From our perspective, we would certainly strongly encourage any measures that can increase tobacco control legislation and help people to get away from the dangers of tobacco.

One of the problems is that, during the lockdown, people were not travelling abroad and, therefore, the opportunity to bring in cigarettes by people travelling abroad reduced substantially and, in fact, the sale of cigarette products here went up dramatically during the Covid lockdown. Is the number of people smoking far higher than what the figures are showing in real terms?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

It is very hard to say. We only have one year of data from the Healthy Ireland survey in terms of smoking patterns in adults, so it is going to take us a little time to understand the ways in which the pandemic period may have influenced people's smoking patterns. There have also been challenges in doing the surveys during the pandemic in terms of face-to-face interviews and so on. It is going to take us a bit of time to understand fully the implications.

To circle back to the Deputy’s question in regard to tobacco-related deaths, I do not believe we are past the peak of the number or rate of tobacco-related deaths. We are still seeing very frightening increases in the number of women with lung cancer relating to women who took up smoking in the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s, when they were actively targeted by the tobacco industry, marketed to and provided with products that were suggested as being lighter, lower tar or less harmful. This is the long-term legacy effect of it. We can see this from some of the marketing and the patterns of uptake that happened, particularly with women in the 1960s and 1970s, where women were far less likely to smoke and then started to catch up with the male figures. I do not believe we are past the peak of deaths.

The point I am making is that the huge increase in the sale of tobacco products during the lockdown gives an indication of the number of cigarettes coming in from abroad when people are travelling back and forth, whether to Spain, Portugal, Greece or otherwise. Is there now a need to tighten up the regulations on the number of cigarettes people can bring in when travelling from abroad? For example, one country – perhaps Sweden - has insisted that products can only be brought in provided the warning is in the language of the country and not any other language. That is the restriction it brought in but it also reduced the number of cigarettes that can be brought in by people from abroad. Do we need to do a lot more on that issue as well?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

There is also the illicit tobacco trade and, on tobacco taxation, I understand two European tobacco directives are coming forward. What I would like to do is to come back and provide the committee with a further short briefing on those issues after this meeting.

Three countries - Estonia, Finland and Hungary - banned the use of flavourings. Have we any lessons to learn from what they did? Did they get it right or are there things we can learn in regard to dealing with this legislation that we should be aware of?

Professor Des Cox

As I mentioned earlier, there was a recent journal article from Finland, where they introduced this, to show that ex-smokers continued to use the same level of e-cigarettes even after the flavouring ban came into place. I point out that a number of other regulations came into place as well. As I also mentioned earlier, it is important that we depend on the evidence and I would imagine we do not know the true impact as there have not yet been many other studies on that issue. Again, we would be happy to provide the committee with a further briefing on any updates or evidence that come to our into attention in the coming weeks.

We want to have the most effective legislation possible so we can assist people and reduce the number of people who smoke, but also reduce the number of people who have to use e-cigarettes.

Professor Des Cox

In regard to flavouring, the Deputy mentioned three countries but there are a number of other countries, like the Netherlands, Denmark and Ukraine, which have also enacted a flavouring ban or are in the process of doing it. There is a growing concern around flavourings across the EU. As I said, our group’s position is that we would be supportive of a ban on flavouring and we would suggest the committee takes that recommendation on board.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

The other piece in regard to lessons from other countries is that many European countries are signatories of the framework convention on tobacco control, which seeks to ensure tobacco control policy is not unduly influenced by lobbying by those with commercial interests and the tobacco industry. In practice, this is sometimes very difficult. There is certainly very strong lobbying activity at European level and also in national governments. To remain firm and objective and to stick with the evidence is the main road to travel in regard to deciding on the legislation.

Is vaping a gateway drug? Is it a gateway with regard to cigarette smoking, tobacco smoking and nicotine?

Professor Des Cox

The Health Research Board conducted a systematic review of a number of cohort studies and demonstrated conclusively that people who use e-cigarettes are three to four times more likely to go on to use tobacco products, so there is conclusive evidence that it is a gateway to smoking.

Have the witnesses any evidence as to the number of dual users who might be out there?

Professor Des Cox

Varying percentages are quoted across different studies. For instance, with regard to adolescents, the 2018 Planet Youth survey, which looked at 4,000 adolescents, stated that 22% used nicotine products, and of that 22%, 5% were e-cigarette users only, 7% were conventional cigarette smokers and the highest percentage was dual use at 9.3%, so dual use is common.

Other randomised control trials show that dual use can be up to 60% of users. It can be very high.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

The current estimates are that approximately a third of e-cigarette users are also using some form of tobacco.

Might restrictions on the use of tobacco, cigarettes and vaping apply? Should they enforced and applied and to what extent?

Professor Des Cox

Will the Deputy repeat the question?

On restrictions to smoking and discouraging vaping, from the earlier statement, can the same restrictions be used as apply-----

(Interruptions).

Professor Des Cox

I could not hear the Deputy completely, but my understanding of the question is whether the same restrictions should be placed on nicotine inhaled products as regards smoking. Is that what the Deputy is asking?

The other way around. Should the same restrictions be applied to vaping as apply to cigarette smoking?

Professor Des Cox

We support the same restrictions on packaging, marketing and advertising being put in place in regard to flavourings as well. Teenagers should not be able to walk into a petrol station and see e-cigarettes right in front of them at the point of sale, at the counter or even behind the counter. We believe that is putting teenagers at risk of developing a nicotine addiction through nicotine inhaled products. We ask the committee to take that into consideration as regards point-of-sale advertising and marketing.

It appears that vaping is regarded as a gateway drug; the Institute of Public Health regards it as such. To what extent is there evidence to show that it is a gateway drug and that users of vaping have moved on to cigarettes?

Professor Des Cox

Sorry, I missed the last bit of the Deputy's question. Is that in relation to cigarette-----

Cigarette smoking. What is the actual evidence of vape smokers moving on to cigarette smoking?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

It is very difficult to give a proportion on that because we do not have a longitudinal study following the same children over time in Ireland. We have a longitudinal study but, unfortunately, it does not include data on e-cigarette to tobacco use. Longitudinal studies are where the same group of children is followed over a period of time. Those types of studies provide a higher level of evidence than taking a different sample of children every few years and are more supportive of a relationship between e-cigarette use and subsequently using tobacco. I do not have any figures on that but we can come certainly back to the Deputy with the findings from some those of longitudinal studies, which would give him an estimate of the strength of that association.

That would be helpful. I thank the Chairman. I apologise for the sound system problems kicking in today. There is something wrong with the machine or-----

I thank Deputy Durkan. It is probably a reminder that if people are joining the meeting from their offices, they are probably better off using their headsets. It is much clearer, especially for guests in the room, in hearing what people are saying.

I have just a couple of questions. One of the suggestions made was to change the age of access from 18 to 21, which is from the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland. Will the representatives expand on some of the thinking behind that?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

Broadly speaking, we know that most people who try tobacco products do so before they are aged 25. We also know that the average age at which children try their first cigarette is going up, which is good. That is what we were trying to do, but we are also aware that many countries have now introduced a minimum legal age of 21 for the sale of tobacco. This is in recognition of the addictive and toxic nature of the product and the fact that one in two smokers will die of a tobacco-related disease. It is that serious and that is why an age of approximately 21 is appropriate.

Legislation was introduced to change the legal age of sale in the United States. It started at state localities and moved into national legislation in 2019. Singapore has introduced phased implementation of this starting with 19- to 20-year-olds in 2020 and increasing the age to 20- to 21-year-olds in 2021. A comprehensive review of this was conducted in 2016. Some modelling was done that demonstrated the legislation can result in fewer tobacco attributable deaths. It also demonstrated a reduction in adverse maternal and child health outcomes, including pre-term births, low birth weight and sudden infant death. The implementation of the Tobacco 21 law in California was evaluated. It was found that after the implementation there was very high awareness and support of the legislation among the community and retailers. Some 60% of young people in the area agreed that raising the minimum age for tobacco sales to 21 reduced tobacco use.

There is a concern that this is paternalistic medicine or nanny statism but it is, in fact, a very proportionate measure in the context of the harmfulness of this product. Other countries are now looking at what is called the sinking lid, where they state they will prohibit the sale of tobacco to anyone born after a certain date, whether it is 2008 or 2020, because they are very committed to an endgame that after a certain point they do not want to see any child or young person having access to these products and becoming addicted.

The argument against this was always that it would increase illicit sales. The evaluation from the California programme was that did not happen. The all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health in the UK recommended raising the age for the sale of tobacco to 21. It has also been raised for discussion at European level so it is certainly in the ether. The estimates are that it would result in a reduction of approximately 7% or 8% in smoking prevalence by 2030, if it was introduced. We could get quite a quick return from that policy in a short period. We do not yet have modelling for that in Ireland.

I talked a little about the adolescent brain. It is an interesting space in terms of decision-making, impulse control, peer pressure and sensation seeking. If we can protect children and adolescents through that period, we will have done a lot to crack this problem of tobacco use and tobacco-related harm. The adolescent brain is also uniquely vulnerable to the effects of nicotine and nicotine addiction so there is a neuroscience argument to this as well.

Again, Dr. McAvoy is saying it would act as a deterrent, but there is other evidence that use of other addictive products, such as alcohol and illegal substances, is probably higher. Someone aged 18 will say he or she is an adult and should be able to make that decision himself or herself. How would she respond to that?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

Yes, people are adults at the age of 18. I would not refute that but if tobacco came before this committee now as a new product, there is no way any government would allow it to be put on the market for sale. It is because we are in that space and have an historic legacy that this product has been around.

If tobacco came to the regulatory bodies now and somebody said he or she wanted to market this product which will seriously harm one in two users, is highly addictive and is very difficult to quit without significant support, would the Government allow it to go on sale? I do not believe it would.

How long have we had inhaling products on the market? Is it ten years?.

Professor Des Cox

They have probably been around for over 20 years but the explosion in the market occurred over the last ten years. That is down to technological advances with the products. We are on third or fourth generation devices now. That is one of the reasons there is confusion around the effects or impacts of e-cigarettes. Technology is evolving and medical science is constantly trying to catch up with it. That is why it is important not to look at one isolated study. We have to look at the bigger picture, involving large-scale population-based studies or collections where they have looked at a number of studies together. That is why people sometimes hear different messages about e-cigarettes.

There is enough evidence. I keep coming back to the HRB review but it is probably the best source of evidence we have. It was published in 2020 and the three main conclusions were that there is no evidence it is better than the standard treatments out there, that there is a three to five times increased chance of ending up using tobacco for those using e-cigarettes and that they are harmful rather than harmless. That is why the HSE in its new stop smoking guidelines has decided there is insufficient evidence to recommend them as quitting tools.

We may not learn the long-term effects for a while but there is evidence to suggest we should not hang our hat on such devices. If we are to get to a tobacco-free Ireland, we should push standard treatments and well-researched and evidence-based treatments, and support quit.ie and the people on the ground who help people quit tobacco. We should increase funding for them rather than looking to other devices.

The members of the group before the committee earlier stated they did not believe e-cigarettes should be sold to young people but the online market is quite big and became bigger during the pandemic. They would say it is because people could not get access and so on. Do the witnesses have any recommendations? For example, if the legislation was changed to ban sales to those under 21 years, how would that be enacted? At the moment, it is a box-ticking exercise. Anyone who ticks "Yes, I'm an adult" can get the product. Can that be tightened up?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

Regulating avenues of online supply and age verification is difficult and I do not have huge expertise in that area. An element of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill is under consultation at the moment. The first part of that Bill was about setting up regulatory structures around online media and safety, with an immediate focus, quite rightly, on child protection and child exploitation.

There is also scope in the Bill to think about regulating the marketing and advertising of tobacco products and nicotine-inhaling products to children and young people. Under EU legislation there is a stipulation that there should be no e-cigarette marketing on channels where more than 25% of the audience is under 18. I have not seen any independent evaluation to indicate that is happening but in small qualitative studies done on children and young people accessing cigarettes, they talked about Snapchat, Instagram and those sorts of channels, which I view as primarily youth channels. There is work to be done on online marketing and age verification for the online supply of e-cigarettes to children and young people, irrespective of whether we go to Tobacco 21.

If we talk about a ban on something, people will look for an alternative. In that context, the online alternative seems to be wide open. I asked the previous group about the ban on smoking in public buildings, restaurants and pubs. We hear of passive smoking. Are there harmful effects for people in the company of vapers? Is there an impact on children when the adult or parent is vaping beside the child? Should there be similar legislation on that? The previous groups suggested that was not the way forward. Do the witnesses have a view on that?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

We do not yet know the long-term effects of inhaling second-hand vapour from e-cigarettes but we know it is an irritant to the nose and respiratory passageway. I do not have a firm view at this stage on extending the workplace smoking ban to vaping. However, we do not want to normalise vaping in places where a smoking ban exists and present it as an alternative activity. We want places, particularly where children are and where people are seeking medical treatment, which are free from that.

Professor Des Cox

It is an evolving area. We do not know a lot about it but we know the by-products of e-cigarettes - that is, what is expelled into the air - contain some compounds which have potential to be harmful. That is all we can say at the moment. I do not think there is firm evidence on that. We would be the first ones to be jumping up and down if that was the case. We do not have full oversight of what the impact is but I agree with Dr. McAvoy's point that just like we try to denormalise the behaviour of smoking, we should not expose children to parents who vape. They should try to do that outside of the environment of the child, as a child protection measure. That would be a sensible approach.

We have all been walking down the street and the next minute been covered in a cloud when someone just blows. That is certainly an irritant for me, regardless of the side effects.

In the past, producers of tobacco products promoted the idea that they were cool, sexy or whatever. Is there any evidence that the products we are discussing are being pushed in that way? There was much emphasis on cartoon figures. We use all sorts of things for marketing, such as particular colours or images. Adults look at cartoons, and there is all sorts of other stuff as well. Is there evidence that the market is being pushed in that direction or is it just an alternative that is more acceptable and it is easier to come off tobacco products by trying this?

Dr. Helen McAvoy

The tobacco marketing strategy is alive and well. We see a large amount of product placement and so on. The strategy is now also about diversifying and promoting products with the direct or indirect suggestion that they are less harmful to health. For example, there was much promotional activity on heat not burn products in the UK. There is a challenge about whether they should be classed as tobacco products because they are not combustible but are heated; therefore, they may be outside the exact regulatory definitions, etc.

All of the marketing techniques relating to celebrity endorsements and very strong gender-based messages around sex appeal that we have seen before are being used for e-cigarettes. It is a different world now with celebrity influencers on social media, which was not around when the tobacco industry marketing was in its heyday. The challenge is the access that this form of marketing has to everyone who has a phone, including children and young people. That would be my observation. The marketing strategies are very clearly along gender lines and they are speaking to messages of freedom and personal empowerment. When the tobacco industry co-opted the feminist movement, it presented tobacco as providing more opportunities and more freedoms in life. We need to be very careful about the messaging that comes from there when they are targeting particular market segments.

Do the witnesses have a view on the process for approving products? Could anything else be tightened up in that regard? How reliable are the statistics relating to the time of the Covid pandemic? Are they a blip? The witnesses spoke about the pressure people were under and so on. Everything was abnormal. Alcohol sales were probably also up during that period. There is anecdotal evidence about illegal drug sales. How were they getting drugs into the country during lockdown? We were doing many things that we would not do normally. Hopefully, as we move out of this madness that will not happen again.

Professor Des Cox

The Chairman asked whether what is happening with tobacco smoking in Ireland at the moment is a blip. As Dr. McAvoy mentioned earlier, much of the evidence we have based on surveys from that period is coloured because of the different pressures of actually getting the information in the first place and the different state of mind of people. We need to look at the bigger picture of the overall trend. It seems that tobacco control in Ireland has stalled somewhat. As a group of doctors, our concern is that whatever about what happened during the Covid pandemic, we are supposed to be aiming for a tobacco-free Ireland of 5%; we are currently at 18%. We are supposed to be tobacco-free by 2025. We are way off that figure.

To get the trend in the right direction, we strongly believe that tobacco control needs to be prioritised through legislative measures. This is the first time in many years that legislation relating to tobacco control has come up. We strongly support the additional recommendations being made today. It is all about the bigger picture of trying to protect people from the harms of tobacco smoking. That needs to be the focus of any legislative measures. This particular legislation is a child protection issue, regarding the ban of nicotine inhaled products under the age of 18 and protecting children from the dangers of both tobacco and nicotine inhaled products.

The positive thing is that there is common agreement. Even those selling the product believe the ban should be introduced. It is up to us to determine the most effective way to do that.

Professor Des Cox

I wish to pick up on one thing Dr. McAvoy mentioned about the tobacco industry's tactics. One of its other tactics is that it has now invested heavily in vaping companies. A number of tobacco companies have large shareholdings in these companies. Different vested interests may present a different picture.

We encourage the committee to always come back to the evidence and that is where the answers will lie.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

I wish to pick up on a comment the Chairman made about the European regulations. They are the European Union (Manufacture, Presentation and Sale of Tobacco and Related Products) Regulations which were transposed into Irish law in 2016 with subsequent amendments in later years. They require notification of the product contents, safety and quality requirements and labelling indicating the product contains nicotine which is highly addictive. There are also some provisions on marketing and advertising, including the stipulation that no medium should be used to advertise e-cigarettes if more than 25% of the audience is under 18. Many countries have not only transposed that directive but have gone beyond it in their own domestic legislation relating to these products.

While, of course, we need to be aligned with Europe and transpose the directives, there is always scope to go further in our own domestic legislation. Given the extent of the difficulties in getting consensus between European countries' governments, the extent of lobbying and all the things that happen at European level, marking to the European level is probably the minimum that any country can do. There is certainly scope for Ireland to go beyond that.

This legislation came in just before the pandemic. The health system and many other Government systems have been overwhelmed and engaged in responding to that. We have not really had any independent report on Ireland's compliance with the European tobacco directive. We need to think about whether Ireland is fully compliant with that European regulation as stated. We also need to ask whether the European directive is enough for what we want to do in Ireland where we have a target for a tobacco-free Ireland by 2025.

Professor Des Cox

To assist in achieving the goal of a tobacco-free Ireland, we wholeheartedly support the passing of the Bill. Regarding additional recommendations, we are at the committee's disposal. We represent groups of doctors from different specialty areas and can provide up-to-date evidence on any aspect proposed legislation. If there is any follow-up, we would be happy to provide the committee with up-to-date information or clarification. It is important that we assist the committee in whatever way we can to reach the right conclusion.

On that positive note, we will end the meeting. I appreciate the witnesses' contributions this morning which have really helped the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.53 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 March 2022.
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