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Joint Committee on Health debate -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 2022

South Kerry Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services: HSE

Apologies have been received from Deputy Cullinane, who will substituted by Deputy Daly, and from Deputy Gino Kenny who will be substituted by Deputy Bríd Smith.

I will deal with an item of housekeeping before I introduce the witnesses. Draft copies of the minutes of the private meetings of 8 and 15 February 2022 have been circulated to members. Are they agreed to? Agreed.

Ba maith liom fáilte a chur roimh na finnéithe atá anseo le linn inniu. Today the committee will meet with representatives from the HSE on the governance and clinical oversight of child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, in Kerry. From the HSE, cuirim fáilte roimh Ms Anne O’Connor, chief operations officer; Mr. Jim Ryan, head of operations, mental health services; Mr. Michael Fitzgerald, chief officer for Cork-Kerry community healthcare organisation; Dr. Maura Young, executive clinical director, Kerry CAMHS; and Dr. Amanda Burke, executive clinical director, mental health services.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. I call Ms O’Connor to make her opening remarks.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Good morning Chairman and members. I thank them for the invitation to meet the Joint Committee on Health and the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health to discuss the governance and clinical oversight of child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, in Kerry. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Michael Fitzgerald, chief officer for the Cork Kerry community healthcare organisation; Mr. Jim Ryan, head of mental health operations; Dr. Maura Young, executive clinical director for Kerry mental health services; and Dr. Amanda Burke, child and adolescent consultant psychiatrist and executive clinical director for Galway Roscommon mental health services.

The report on the Look-Back Review into Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services in south Kerry, also referred to as the Maskey report, was published on 26 January 2022. The look-back review was formally commissioned by the chief officer for the Cork Kerry community healthcare organisation, CHO, in April 2021, following an audit of case files in south Kerry CAMHS after concerns were raised about the clinical practice of a non-consultant hospital doctor, NCHD. The purpose of the look-back review was to consider potential issues relating to the clinical practice of the NCHD with regard to prescribing, care planning, diagnostics and clinical supervision in south Kerry CAMHS. In line with our procedures for dealing with serious incidents, this review was conducted in accordance with the HSE incident management framework 2020 and the HSE look-back review process guideline 2015. The review team was led by Dr. Seán Maskey, CAMHS consultant with the Maudsley Hospital in London. Dr. Maskey and his team reviewed clinical records of close to 1,500 children and young people who had attended south Kerry CAMHS between 1 July 2016 and 19 April 2021. A helpline was established in April 2021 to provide advice and support to families affected by the look-back review and it remains open. Through this helpline, families can access information, free counselling support and schedule appointments with clinical support teams.

The Maskey report identified a number of deficits in respect of governance, supervision and oversight, clinical practice and administrative processes within the south Kerry CAMHS team. These deficits are deeply regrettable and were contributing factors to the substandard care received by the 240 children, young people and their families. On behalf of the HSE, I wish to reiterate our sincere apologies to all those who have experienced deficits in the services they have received. Our aim at all times is to provide these children, young people and their families with safe and effective services and with every possible support and reassurance.

Cork Kerry CHO has taken immediate action to ensure appropriate governance, clinical leadership and supervision within south Kerry CAMHS. The objective remains to secure a permanent consultant psychiatrist and, in the interim, measures have been put in place to ensure clinical governance and leadership. A consultant psychiatrist is on site two days per week with additional support provided remotely three days per week. In line with recommendations in the Maskey report concerning telemedicine, a consultant psychiatrist will provide three evening clinics per week remotely from Dublin, while a pilot involving a consultant registered with the Irish Medical Council, based outside of the EU, is also under way.

The HSE has taken a range of actions to address the findings of the Maskey report and we are committed to ensuring full implementation of its 35 recommendations. Together with the chief clinical officer, I will chair a national oversight group to oversee, monitor and report on our implementation of the Maskey report. This oversight group will have a strong service user focus. It will operate in a fully transparent manner and progress reports will be publicly available.

Cork Kerry CHO has already identified supports for children and young people affected in south Kerry CAMHS and, in addition, is standing up a dedicated clinical liaison support team, which will provide key worker and case manager services to children and young people affected. This team will consult with families to determine how to best meet identified needs, taking into consideration the full range of health services, including specialist mental health services. The clinical liaison support team will also identify other appropriate services in the community, as well as services available from private service providers that can support the children, young people and their families.

While the scope of the look back review is confined to practices in south Kerry CAMHS, I appreciate that the Maskey report can give rise to concern among children, young people and families who avail of services provided by CAMHS teams in other parts of the country. In order to provide assurance to families who need our services, the HSE’s national oversight group will be commissioning an independently chaired review of medication practice across all CAMHS teams. The national oversight group will also commission an audit of compliance with operational guidelines as well as a qualitative study of how those who use, work in and refer to CAMHS experience those services. Information from the planned national audits will guide our continued efforts to enhance youth mental health services.

There has been a significant investment in CAMHS over a number of years to meet increased demand and to improve services for children and young people with mental health difficulties. Within the past six years, €22.6 million of development funding has been directed to enhance CAMHS. Since 2013, an additional 18 CAMHS teams have been established and close to 300 additional whole-time equivalent posts added to our workforce. There are currently 73 multidisciplinary CAMHS teams in place providing important assessment and treatment services. Alongside these targeted enhancements of capacity in our CAMHS teams, we have invested in telehealth, eating disorder teams and inpatient care.

Importantly, we have also invested in services such as Jigsaw and primary care psychology for children and young people with mild to moderate mental health difficulties who do not need to access the specialist mental health services that CAMHS provide. The improvement of youth mental health services will continue to be a key priority for the HSE as we continue to implement the recommendations set out in Sharing the Vision - A Mental Health Policy for Everyone.

I once again take the opportunity to apologise on behalf of the HSE to the children, young people and families whose care, as outlined in the Maskey report, did not meet the standards it should have.

I intend to proceed with the meeting in ten-minute slots. There are a number of visitors to the meeting who I will try to bring in at the end if there is time, but I will give priority to members of the Joint Committee on Health and the Sub-Committee on Mental Health. If I can get those to whom I refer in at all, it will be at the end of the meeting if that is okay.

I thank our guests for the presentation. I will open with the issue of checks and balances in the context of our mental health services. If a consultant is working in a hospital, be it in orthopaedics or surgery, there are checks and balances in place within that hospital's structures. In our mental health services, there are no checks and balances. Even if one takes it that a consultant is in charge, there are no checks and balances in regard to reviewing what that consultant is doing or prescribing. What action is the HSE taking to make sure those checks and balances apply across the board to consultants and junior doctors in our mental health services?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will take that and then ask one of my clinical colleagues to come in. In terms of the checks and balances, there is a governance structure within our mental health services. Doctors report up through the medical governance line to clinical directors and, ultimately, to the executive clinical directors. There is the same clinical line of governance that we have in other services. From an organisation-wide perspective, when looking at medical staffing and structures, Dr. Colm Henry and I lead a group that looks at the medical workforce, and, certainly, the non-consultant hospital doctor-----

No, I am not talking about non-consultants. I am talking about the checks and balances that are currently in the mental health services. If a consultant is appointed, who reviews the work that consultant is doing? In a hospital structure, there are checks and balances because there are a lot of management systems. However, in the context of mental health day services, I am asking what structures are in place? What happened in Kerry has proved that there was not a structure in place.

Ms Anne O'Connor

It is the same. I appreciate what happened in Kerry should not have happened - I wish to reiterate that. We have an equivalent system whereby junior doctors report to more senior doctors. Consultants report up through a clinical director in the area and, ultimately, to the executive clinical director in the CHO. I will ask either Dr. Young or Dr. Amanda Burke to come in on the clinical pathway for that.

Dr. Amanda Burke

As Ms O'Connor said, we have a robust clinical governance structure. Similar to the hospitals, we have a number of other checks and balances. We review all clinical complaints that come in for trends or outliers. We also have clinical audits. Every consultant under their continuing professional development must conduct a clinical audit every year. We also have service-wide audits.

I am sorry for interrupting, but if that system was there, this was a problem from 2016 to 2021. That is five years. How come nothing showed up if that structure was actually in place?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will ask Dr. Young to come in on the specifics of this case.

Dr. Maura Young

I will try to answer that. The Deputy's point is that, in this case, our measures for picking up deviations from practice did not work. That is clear because it went on for four to five years. We have our standard governance lines, such as in an acute hospital system, as Dr. Burke was explaining. It goes up the CAMHS clinical director and then to the executive clinical director, ECD, eventually. However, what happened was that we were looking at our key performance indicators but our quality measures were not robust enough to capture the quality of the service provided. We were able to capture how long people were waiting and the length of time for the referral, but we were not able to capture the quality of the service that was provided on the ground. We realise we need to do a lot of work to improve how we measure the quality of service, and a big component of that is service-user feedback.

But Dr. Young accepts that there is not a structure currently in place. I know we are talking about a non-consultant doctor in this case, but even with consultants, does Dr. Young not accept that there is not an adequate structure in place to cross-check their performance and the work they are doing in the mental health services as they are currently structured?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I would not accept that. What we know is that, in this instance, it did not work and as Dr. Young set out this has demonstrated to us that some of the measures we use are not robust enough. I dispute the assertion that we do not have a governance structure in place. We have invested significantly in the structure of services to ensure we have clinical directors and executive clinical directors to provide the clinical governance. They are in place in all our CHOs.

Can I go back to this particular case in which there was a non-consultant doctor-----

(Interruptions).

Sorry, we did not catch that. The sound system was very bad.

Going back to what occurred in Kerry, where there was a non-consultant doctor working for a period, I am asking about the structures and governance of that case. As to the position not being filled, a period of 12 months would not be unusual for a consultant post not to be filled but, in this case, it was running into two or three years. Why was a proper structure not put in place such as someone giving support to that doctor? It appears there was no support in place for that doctor who was providing the service.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Again, I ask Dr. Young to respond in terms of the specifics of the Kerry case.

Dr. Maura Young

Supervision was offered to that doctor but often that person did not come to supervision for whatever reason. That went on for a period-----

If the person did not come to give an account and explanation in regard to the programme, the number of people they were dealing with and how they were treating them, surely, that should have set off the alarm bells. We are talking about a period of four years when no one appeared to be in charge.

Dr. Maura Young

Alarm bells were set off. Action was tried but the action was not enough to stop what was happening.

Was it not the case then of putting in someone who the non-consultant doctor would have been accountable to on a daily or weekly basis?

Dr. Maura Young

There was a consultant who was providing weekly supervision to that individual, but that supervision was not availed of and was not being used in a consistent way.

Is it not true to say that the consultant would also have had a very heavy workload in their own area?

Dr. Maura Young

That is absolutely that case. They would have had.

Was a request ever made for adequate additional support to be put in place for the south Kerry area regarding mental health services? In particular, when the consultant post was vacant for a considerable period, why was a locum not put in place?

Dr. Maura Young

Locums were sought. It was not possible to get a locum until September 2020. There was a locum who came for a period but they left because of issues. They terminated their locum period after about six months. During the four-year period, we had a locum for approximately six months who then left. There were ongoing recruitment efforts made to fill those posts. On two occasions the posts were interviewed for. The post was accepted and then the applicant withdrew the acceptance. In the end, a locum was recruited into that post in September 2020.

When there was a difficulty in getting the consultant post filled, was that not the time to review the putting in place of a different structure so that someone was in overall charge? It appears to be the case that no one was in overall charge.

Dr. Maura Young

If we look back and take the learning from this, it is for a clinical team co-ordinator, which is one of the recommendations of the Maskey report. That is why we have moved to put a clinical team co-ordinator in place at present. As the Deputy said, it is extremely difficult to recruit a consultant. We are having ongoing difficulties to this day in getting a consultant into that post. As the Deputy said, we needed to have a person on the ground to hold the team together, to manage the referrals and to manage what was happening to the patients in the team. We have now got a clinical co-ordinator in place.

Thanks very much to everybody for coming in. The first question or two I have is for Ms O'Connor. I will take her up on some of the things mentioned in her opening statement. She stated that, "In order to provide assurance...the...national oversight group will be commissioning an independently chaired review". Has that review started?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Is this the one on prescribing practice?

It is a chaired review of medication practice.

Ms Anne O'Connor

The first step for that has been to determine what that audit is. We have had to design the criteria and standards that we audit against. That work has been done. We have also been securing an independent chair for the review; we have now secured that person. The first meeting of the oversight group is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. We will kick off from there. We have an independent chair. It took us some time to find somebody who would be suitably independent to carry out that work and it has taken us considerable time to design how we do that audit. That work has started.

Who is that person?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Dr. Colette Halpin.

Does Ms O'Connor know when the review will finish?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I do not.

Has the group been given a timeframe as to when the review should be completed?

Ms Anne O'Connor

No. All of this will be signed off at the first meeting of the oversight group tomorrow afternoon. We will finalise the details of it then. A paper is due at the oversight group tomorrow.

The HSE has set this up. Has it told the group that it expects a conclusion or report by a certain time?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I am sorry. I do not have the detail regarding time in front of me because it has taken us until last week to finalise the chair. As I said, the meeting is tomorrow and the papers are being finalised to come to that oversight meeting for sign-off.

Has Ms O'Connor any general idea? Will it be completed by the summer?

Ms Anne O'Connor

It will take a number of months. I am sorry, but I cannot be specific. We are very keen. There are three elements to the audits we are doing. This is only one part of three different reviews we are undertaking. I do not have the details in respect of finalising the standards. Those are being finalised for tomorrow, but I am happy to come back once we have gone through that tomorrow.

I will touch on what Dr. Young said about supervision in answer to Deputy Burke's questions. It seems from what she said that supervision was available but not actually availed of. Does Ms O'Connor accept that supervision and oversight should be coming from the top down as opposed to telling the non-consultant doctor it was there if he wished to avail of it?

Ms Anne O'Connor

As Dr. Young said, one of the flags that should have been up was around somebody not availing of supervision. Again, to be clear, we are not here to defend in any way what has happened. Certainly, from our perspective, the uptake of supervision and the supervising structures we have in place is a key issue. I might ask Dr. Young or Dr. Burke to comment on how that supervision works if somebody chooses not to engage.

No. Would Ms O'Connor not accept that the mistake made was that the supervision should have come from the top down? That non-consultant was not fully qualified and does not meet what the HSE is looking for at present, as it is looking for a fully qualified consultant psychiatrist. The HSE is still looking for a person to fill that role, but that supervision should have come from the top down in actively going to supervise the work that was being carried out as opposed to telling the consultant it was there if he wished to avail of it. Does Ms O'Connor accept that?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Absolutely. As we said to Deputy Burke, the supervision was from another very busy consultant. Again, a key issue in this area was not being able to get a consultant and relying on a junior doctor and a consultant who was covering a very busy patch in terms of supervision. The Deputy is correct. On how we provide supervision and somebody choosing not to avail of that, it absolutely should be provided regardless. That should be part of the supervisory process, even if the person does not wish to engage. I do not disagree with the Deputy.

It is mentioned on page 4 of Ms O'Connor's opening statement that there are currently 73 multidisciplinary CAMHS teams. I take it she is familiar with A Vision for Change, which came out in 2006.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Yes.

A Vision for Change states that, for example, there should be seven multidisciplinary community mental health teams for a population of 300,000, or one team for every 50,000 people, and that every team should be under a child psychologist. Does Ms O'Connor accept all that?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Yes, that is what A Vision for Change states about being under a child psychiatrist.

It goes on to state that there should be one team for every 12,500 children aged under 18. In Kerry, where the population aged under 15 is 30,000 and that aged under 24 is 45,000, there should be three full teams rather than two. Does Ms O'Connor accept that?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will not argue about the policy around populations in A Vision for Change. However, from our perspective of running mental health services, we have our eyes wide open about the very real challenges in recruiting consultants to CAMHS. When we say we have 72 teams requiring consultants, as we grow teams and as we need more consultants we struggle to get consultant psychiatrists. That is not just an Irish challenge but a global one. We are competing in a global market when it comes to getting CAMHS consultants. There is a question to be asked about how we actually provide a sufficient medical workforce as we grow the numbers of teams.

Our priority has to be for the sickest children to receive the service they need. That is why within mental health, over a number of years now, we have been investing in a range of solutions to try to look at how we can prioritise children with most need for our very specialist service. We have to remember CAMHS is a very specialist mental health service. There are other options available for mental health supports that we have funded, for example, Jigsaw, as I mentioned, in primary care psychology. Those avenues should be used in the first instance. While I do not disagree with what is stated in the policy, it is worth noting that we are now focused on Sharing the Vision - I know Mr. Ryan and Dr. Burke are very involved in that - and are looking at a different type of approach around youth mental health. The workforce challenge is a very real one that we cannot ignore.

Ms O'Connor mentioned the difficulties in recruiting. A 30% pay cut for consultants was imposed in 2012. Had that anything to do with the difficulty in recruiting consultants?

Ms Anne O'Connor

There are a number of challenges, even with training. For us, when it comes to growing our workforce, consultant pay is an issue that does or does not impact. That is not the only issue, however. We know from broader work on consultants in the HSE that it is not just about pay. It is also about facilities, having a team available-----

Has pay been a factor for some of them?

Ms Anne O'Connor

It may be. I do not know for sure. I imagine it must be for some, but I do not think it is the only factor. The underdevelopment of services-----

Has the 30% pay cut been reversed?

Ms Anne O'Connor

That is a matter for the Department of Health. We do not set the pay rates. Work is under way-----

Does Ms O'Connor know if it has been reversed yet or not?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Work is under way at present on a consultant contract that is being led by the Department of Health, with consultants, in line with the Sláintecare contract.

It has not been reversed. Is that it?

Ms Anne O'Connor

That process has not concluded.

Another factor mentioned was that of a national director. Is there a national director at present?

Ms Anne O'Connor

No.

Even the Minister of State has called for a reversal of that and for the appointment of a national director.

Does Ms O'Connor agree that a national director should be appointed?

Ms Anne O'Connor

That is an interesting question. I was the national director for mental health until my role was reconfigured at the end of 2017. I was the national director of mental health until 31 December 2017. At that time, the structures in the HSE were very different. There were siloed structures which comprised a mental health division, a primary care division, etc. It was certainly of benefit at that time. However, from my personal experience I would say it led to other challenges. At that time, some of the challenges we were starting to encounter were challenges of integration. Even at the time - in 2017 and heading in 2018 - there was a risk that a siloed approach to mental health was becoming an issue. For example, we invested in primary care psychology. The first course for anybody who is experiencing a mental health difficulty needs to be in primary care. The specialist mental health services are exactly that. Having a national director does not fit with an integrated approach to service delivery.

In other fora, we discuss with many of the members issues such as Sláintecare, regional health areas, RHAs, and an integrated approach to care. That is far more important. It is more about looking at the functions. There is much discussion about a national director for mental health. I think it is more important that we focus on what the issues are. What do people feel-----

Does Ms O'Connor not think-----

We are out of time.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I do not believe that is the answer to the problems we are talking about here.

Can Ms O'Connor give a commitment that there will be a care plan put in place for the families who have already been subject to the review? Many of them have contacted me to say there is not a psychologist in place for them and their questions are not being answered. Some of them do not know where to turn.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Yes. Mr. Michael Fitzgerald is here but in the interests of time, I will just say that we will have a clinical liaison team. We already have supports in place. There is a helpline in place and there are meetings with families. We have already put in place a number of responses. However, we are also putting in place a clinical liaison team that will provide that case management response the Deputy is talking about.

Thank you.

Will they be provided with meetings and will there be somebody who will co-ordinate?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Yes.

I thank the HSE team. I wish to recap and refresh my memory. I thank the witnesses for attending and for the work they have done, in particular, those who were involved in the Maskey report. The look-back review was formally commissioned by the chief officer for Cork-Kerry community healthcare organisation following an audit of case files. Was that an audit of sample files or a full audit?

Dr. Maura Young

I will answer that. When the concerns were highlighted to us by the local consultant at that time, who said he was coming across abnormal prescribing patterns and was not happy with some of the diagnoses being made, we said that what we needed to do was take a 10% random sample to see if the issues were isolated or widespread across the whole caseload. At that time, there were just over 500 cases open so we took a 10% sample, which is approximately 55 cases.

That is useful information. Sample files were, therefore, taken and the Maskey report was initiated as a result of findings of that. Arising out of that, there was a look-back review, of which details have been given, to consider potential issues relating to clinical practice in regard to prescribing, care planning, diagnostics and clinical supervision specifically in Kerry. I want to move away from Kerry, in one sense. Having looked at the HSE look-back review process guidelines, it seems to me that they were followed and the system works in that sense. The introduction of Dr. Maskey to carry out an independent review seemed also to have followed best practice. He is a consultant based not in Ireland but in London, as outlined in the report and as we know. There was a certain degree of independence in regard to the report carried out so good service was done. Dr. Maskey's team reviewed the clinical records of 1,500 children and we know what happened as a result of that. He identified defects. This is all set out in the statement.

In regard to the details on some of the supports put in place, the verbs in the statement are often in the future tense. I appreciate that it is not so long since the report came out and it is being worked on. The statement notes that a consultant psychiatrist will provide three evening clinics per week remotely from Dublin, while a pilot involving a consultant registered with the Irish Medical Council based outside of the EU is also under way. Where are we with that remote consultant piece?

Dr. Maura Young

The consultant providing the remote work outside Europe has started. That has been under way since the end of January. He is reviewing people via a clinic on two afternoons a week. The consultant in Dublin is actually to start next week. He was to start this week but I am out on sick leave so I was not available to help sort the clinic out. We want that to start on a good footing and it will start next Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. That is in place.

That is positive news. I thank Dr. Young for her presence this morning, given that she is out on sick leave. I appreciate that.

Moving on to what for me is the important piece, Ms O'Connor stated that the HSE acknowledges in the report that the scope of the look-back review is confined to practices in south Kerry CAMHS. She noted that the HSE also appreciates that the Maskey report can give rise to concern among children, young people and their families who avail of services provided by CAMHS teams in other parts of the country. In order to deal with that and provide assurances to them, the HSE's national oversight group will commission an independently chaired review of medication practices across all CAMHS teams. Ms O'Connor told us that Dr. Colette Halpin is to be the chair of that group. On a brief perusal, and I am not casting any aspersions on Dr. Halpin who seems to have a very good curriculum vitae as a consultant child psychiatrist, she was involved in Offaly CAMHS at one stage. As a layperson and public representative, I would like to have seen the Maskey model followed and someone without any involvement in CAMHS being appointed. I ask Ms O'Connor to comment on that presently.

Ms O'Connor also stated that the oversight group will commission an audit of compliance with operational guidelines. Will she talk me through the prescribing and medication audit that is proposed? Many children who turn up to CAMHS would be referred to CAMHS with many different presenting issues. It could be self-harm, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, or mental health intellectual disabilities, MHID. That is quite a broad range of complex needs. Will there be a look-back at a random sample of files to see if medication and prescribing was appropriate similar to the one that was done in Kerry?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will start and also ask Dr. Amanda Burke to comment. We are starting with an audit of all teams in terms of prescribing. Dr. Maskey, in his report and conversations, has advised that we start with ADHD. The key issues here arose in respect of ADHD prescribing and that is where we are starting. That audit, as I said, is being designed because we did not have standards so there are not common standards against which to audit, and in order to audit there must be common standards to use. That work has been carried out in regard to defining what those standards are and the audit process being agreed. As I said, the group is meeting tomorrow to sign off on our approach to that.

If Dr. Maskey is recommending an independent random sample but Ms. O'Connor is saying the process is beginning only with young people who presented with ADHD, that is not really random. Is that correct?

Ms Anne O'Connor

It will be a random sample in regard to those who attend with ADHD.

I am not a medical expert but I do not think it would be great surprise to people to learn that medication is prescribed in some cases of ADHD. That is not uncommon. There may not be any surprises there because it is not unusual for young people to be medicated or offered prescriptions for ADHD, depending I presume on what problems are presenting. I am trying to be sensitive with language and avoid being pejorative.

It is in the other presenting areas where many of the problems arose, though, and there was inappropriate and unusual prescribing.

Ms Anne O'Connor

And medication dosages. I might refer to one of my medical colleagues.

Dr. Amanda Burke

The Deputy is correct, in that it would not be uncommon for someone with ADHD, but this would be a targeted audit and we would be deliberately picking young people who had already been prescribed medication. A significant proportion of the children attending CAMHS are not prescribed medication. We will be targeting those who have been prescribed medication to determine whether it is appropriate.

I know, but the HSE is initially only targeting those with ADHD. That is not what happened in Kerry, where there was an examination of a random sample of files. They were not just ADHD files. I am concerned that the HSE will look at just the ADHD files and, if it makes findings that are negative - I hope they will be positive rather than negative - it will only pursue the ADHD avenue. I am thinking of all the other presenting cases, which would start getting lost as we moved down just this one avenue. To the public's mind, it would not be unusual for medication to be prescribed. I take it that the prescribing in question was inappropriate, but in Kerry the review did not focus on ADHD alone. There was a full examination of random samples. That is what gave rise to the Maskey report and the discovery that there allegedly was inappropriate prescribing across a range of presenting issues.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Dr. Maskey has recommended that we commence with ADHD based on what he has seen. The challenge for us is that any audit of prescribing practices would have to be specific. If we were to broaden it out, it would take much longer because we would have to devise standard criteria for everything instead of starting with ADHD as Dr. Maskey has recommended.

I will finish on this point because I am running out of time. What made the Maskey report on Kerry ostensibly successful was that there was a random examination that was not confined to ADHD. Notwithstanding what Dr. Maskey has recommended, that process seemed to work well, so why not start with that process across other CAMHS areas? Take a random sample of files, do not focus exclusively on the ADHD piece and see whether there were other issues like inappropriate prescribing in respect of people with, for example, eating disorders or depression. I am afraid that, if the HSE just focuses on ADHD and finds negative or unhealthy prescribing patterns in other CAMHS areas, it will just pursue the ADHD piece and may ignore all the other presenting issues.

Ms Anne O'Connor

We will not be doing that. We are starting with ADHD because Dr. Maskey's report was a successful process and this was its recommendation to us. We need to start this. If we do not start with the ADHD pathway, it will take us a long time to agree criteria for auditing all of the other conditions. We must remember that there are many children who are prescribed medication through their GPs and who do not come to CAMHS. Once we broaden the review to other conditions, the whole thing becomes a much larger and more complex task but will not necessarily deliver a different result. If we audit ADHD and see any flag, we will examine it in more detail outside of ADHD.

I am moving on.

I never push it, Chair,-----

The Deputy can see that I am under pressure.

-----but will we ever get an audit of non-ADHD presenting conditions in terms of inappropriate prescriptions?

Ms Anne O'Connor

If flags are raised as part of this initial review, we will consider a broader audit, but we are starting with ADHD.

Only then will the HSE consider a broader audit.

Ms Anne O'Connor

It depends. We would have to go back to the drawing board because we would have to consider the criteria to audit against once we went outside ADHD.

The HSE has been given a roadmap in the form of the Maskey report. I just do not understand why it is not starting with the same template.

Ms Anne O'Connor

It is because Dr. Maskey has said we should start with ADHD.

I know what he said.

I welcome our guests. I will stick with south Kerry because it is important that we establish exactly what went wrong there. If we do not do that, we will not learn lessons for future practice. Ms O'Connor stated that the Maskey report had identified a number of deficits in respect of governance, supervision and oversight, clinical practice and administrative processes. Will she talk us through the governance structure of CAMHS in south Kerry and explain to us what the chain of command there was?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I might ask Mr. Fitzgerald, the chief officer of the Cork-Kerry CHO, to reply.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

As we have discussed, the chain of command from the medical perspective saw the NCHD-----

Overall. I do not want to distinguish between medical and administrative. What is the governance structure?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

During the period in question, Kerry's mental health services had their own management team, ECD - it still has its own ECD - director of nursing and managers of each of the disciplines involved. That is the overall governance structure.

Who is ultimately responsible?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Who is ultimately responsible for the-----

For the governance of CAMHS in south Kerry.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

From a clinical governance perspective, the ECD in Kerry had responsibility for the medical practices of CAMHS in south Kerry.

Is Mr. Fitzgerald making a distinction between medical and administrative?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The ECD has particular responsibilities in the context of medical oversight. That is why I am making that particular statement.

I still do not understand what the chain of command is with the service. I am sorry, but what is the "ECD"?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The executive clinical director.

Dr. Maura Young

May I make a point on this?

I am sorry, but I am asking for Mr. Fitzgerald to explain the governance structure to me.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The executive clinical director has overall responsibility for the clinical governance of Kerry's mental health services.

Who is below that person?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The consultants in CAMHS have clinical responsibility for the governance of the two CAMHS teams in Kerry.

Ms Anne O'Connor

An important point to make is that, from a CHO perspective, the chief officer is responsible for the delivery of services in an area and the ECD reports to him or her.

Where does the director of services fit into this?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The head of mental health services reports to the chief officer - myself - and has responsibility for mental health services across Cork and Kerry and works-----

To whom does the ECD report?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The chief officer, through the head of services.

Everyone reports to the chief officer.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Correct.

Tell me about the area A CAMHS governance group. Who was in it?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

At the time, the Kerry mental health services decided that they needed to have a specific governance group for CAMHS in order to give it a particular focus. Dr. Young might explain that in more detail. A similar group of people were on the CAMHS oversight group as were on the management group in Kerry. I believe it included the consultant and a couple of other individuals. Dr. Young might explain the difference between the Kerry mental health management team and the oversight group.

Dr. Maura Young

I am sorry for interrupting earlier. The governance arrangements of a CAMHS team are complex. The consultant is the de facto team leader and has clinical responsibility for the care delivered within the CAMHS team. However, each discipline within the CAMHS team reports to its head - the social worker reports to the head of social work and the nurse reports to the director of nursing. Each reports up through his or her discipline. In reality, although the consultant is the nominal lead, he or she finds it difficult to get his or her wishes down to each of the disciplines because each of those are line managed by itself.

In an attempt to bring this together in some shape or form, my predecessor brought together a CAMHS governance group. Within that group were all of the line managers of the disciplines that worked on the ground - social work, occupational therapy, psychology, speech and language, and medical.

Dr. Young makes a good case for complete restructuring of how health services are organised and the chain of command because she gives the impression that everybody is responsible and nobody is responsible. Do all of those people report into the ECD or to the director of services?

Dr. Maura Young

They report into the head of service.

The director of service, is that right?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The head of service.

Ms Anne O'Connor

The head of service within the CHO.

Who is the head of service?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

It is a specific postholder. The head of service is similar to the head of older persons services or disability services. It is a specific postholder who reports into me, as chief officer.

Who is ultimately responsible? Is it the chief officer or the head of service?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The chief officer has overall responsibility for the management of services within the geographic area. In the context of Cork and Kerry, that is me.

I take it then that Mr. Fitzgerald is a member of that governance group.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I have my own management team, which includes the heads of services for each of the disciplines involved, along with HR and with finance and quality and patient safety. It has overall responsibility for all of the services.

The answers I am getting are very puzzling. I do not know who is in charge of anything. There are all these different line managements. Is it clinical? Is it administrative? Who does the buck stop with ultimately? That is the question. Will Ms O'Connor send us a diagram of the governance structure in south Kerry? I do not want to spend any more time on this issue because it is exceptionally confusing. I can well understand how issues arise. The Maskey report refers to the area A governance group, which "did not check that CAMHS Area A Team was working safely and effectively" and "did not [consider or] talk about the risks of a long term vacancy." Who is responsible? Who is the senior person on that governance group?

Dr. Maura Young

The governance group would have been chaired by the ECD. The group would have met at that stage every four months and each of the line managers would have attended that meeting, along with the two consultants.

Who was in that role in that period between 2016 and 2020?

Dr. Maura Young

That would have been my predecessor.

Dr. Maura Young

It was Dr. Phelan.

When did that person leave that post?

Dr. Maura Young

The person retired from the service in July 2020 and I took up my post on 4 August 2020.

Time is short. I want to ask about the whistleblower, Dr. Sharma. With whom did Dr. Sharma first raise his concerns?

Dr. Maura Young

He emailed the clinical director, CD, of CAMHS and he copied me into that email as well.

What action did Dr. Young take on foot of those concerns being raised with her?

Dr. Maura Young

We straightaway contacted our quality and patient safety adviser and we convened a meeting within two days.

Is this a separate person? Is this a new person that Dr. Young is referring to?

Dr. Maura Young

Yes. Each area has a quality and patient safety officer along with a head of service.

I am totally confused, I have to say. I do not know who is responsible for anything. The witnesses have referred to approximately 20 different people here - all kinds of different disciplines, including clinical staff and administrative staff. It seems that nobody is in charge.

Ms Anne O'Connor

All of our services have quality and patient safety advisers. We have them at a national level and in line with the development of patient safety structures. They are key members of teams. Our mental health services are delivered by teams.

What did that person do when the concerns were raised by Dr. Sharma?

Dr. Maura Young

She convened an immediate meeting attended by the two consultants, the head of service, me as ECD, the CD for CAMHS and herself. We met and we said what we needed to do. We set out a plan for what we needed to do. We agreed on that day that we needed to do a random sample of 50 charts to see what the practice was like across the whole team.

The Deputy is out of time.

I have one final question. Who is ultimately responsible for ensuring that vacancies are filled?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

As chief officer, my responsibility is to provide the service in conjunction with the agreed operational plan for the year. Of course, it is my responsibility to ensure that any posts that we have are filled. That is a complex bit of business because of what we have said already but, ultimately, it is my responsibility to ensure that we can do our very best to fill any post that is vacant.

You said the final question, Deputy.

Sorry, this is my final one.

We are moving on.

Clearly, for whatever reason, Mr. Fitzgerald was not able to recruit.

I am moving on.

Did Mr. Fitzgerald escalate that to the HSE centre?

I ask Deputy Shortall to stop. I am moving on because I am under massive pressure. A large number of speakers wish to contribute. This is a joint meeting of the Committee on Health and the Sub-Committee on Mental Health and there are other members, Teachtaí Dála and Seanadóirí, who want to speak. Given the pressure, I ask members to listen to the Chair as well.

The ten minutes are just up now.

I call Deputy Hourigan.

I will try to keep to the time. I want to ask a number of questions but I will first follow up on some of the answers to Deputy Shortall's questions. A visual representation of the governance structure for the Kerry-Cork CAMHS would be incredibly useful. I definitely need that because I am also completely confused. Who does the patient safety adviser work under? Who is the line manager?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I will respond to that. The patient safety advisers report to me, as the chief officer, and they have responsibilities across each of the services. They work with the services with regard to both the quality of the services and safety issues. Specifically, if issues such as this are raised, they work with us to make sure our processes are followed and any investigation that is required or review that is undertaken is done in line with policy.

Does their role compromise a patient safety adviser for mental health or do they cover other areas also?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

They cover all of the services within the CHO.

Is that everything from children's physical health right up to mental health - the whole gamut?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The whole gamut, exactly. They support it but, obviously, within the services, each of them will have a quality, safety and risk process and they have their own committee within each of the care groups. For primary care, for example, they will have their own committee which will be chaired by the head of service. The same applies for disability and for mental health services.

It has been described to us that there are meetings every four months. I presume the cases and the service are reviewed every four months. Is that correct? Does the patient safety adviser attend those meetings?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The patient safety adviser would have provided any supports that would be required so that the meeting and the people themselves will look at how they will do their business. They should be looking at their risks, quality initiatives and their key performing-----

I do not mean to cut across Mr. Fitzgerald. Are they in the room or not?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

They would not be in the room for all of the meetings right across the CHO.

I am not a medical professional, so I am trying to understand what happens at this four-monthly review. It seems that the failure here is a governance issue. I presume care plans and patients' particular needs are on the table. If there is a shortfall in oversight or staffing, the patient safety adviser is not in the room to say the service is severely lacking. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I might ask Dr. Young to talk about what would be the kind of general discussion that would take place and what topics would be considered with regard to that particular oversight group.

Dr. Maura Young

With regard to the CAMHS governance group, it did not talk about specific clinical issues and it was not a review at each individual patient level. Looking back through the minutes of those meetings through that period of time, what was happening was around equipment, buildings, staffing, including recruitment. It was not only medical staffing that was an issue. It was also trying to recruit psychology staff and speech and language therapists. It was looking at-----

To clarify, the meetings are discussing capital investment and issues such as staffing. Was there no discussion at those meetings of specific concerns around service provision to specific patients?

Dr. Maura Young

No.

Okay. One recommendation has come from a number of bodies. I want to be clear about the review and audit that is happening now, and the actions being taken following this report. Are they a one-off and a one-time review? I am asking in the context of certain medical bodies asking for the set-up of regular reviews to service.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Services conduct reviews all the time but as regards the national three-pronged approach we are taking in response to this matter specifically, we are starting with it once and we will have to determine what happens as we go forward. One of the key recommendations relates to the adherence to operational guidelines that exist. It is important to note that within the CAMHS service there is a very well-developed operational guidance document that has been updated in recent times. Dr. Maskey highlighted this as a model of very good practice. The issues that have arisen have done so partly because these guidelines were not being implemented. One of our key areas of focus is to determine whether the teams are in fact implementing and using the operational guidance that exists. We will be doing that and we will certainly look at how we maintain that because-----

Sorry, just to be clear, at present it is a one-off, but the HSE is open to the idea that it would continue. I am considering the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland, which has asked a number of times for the establishment of regular reviews of the system.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Absolutely. We are starting this now. We are very concerned about what has happened in the context of the need for us to be able to assure ourselves that our services are being delivered in line with best practice and the operational guidance that exists. We will do this review and the oversight team will consider how that needs to be continued.

I will return to the issue of how the teams are run. I cannot remember who said this during Deputy Shortall's session. One of the phrases used was the consultant is the de facto team leader but various specialists and disciplines are line-managed by discipline. The social worker reports to the social work team and the occupational therapist, OT, reports to that team. When it comes to an individual patient, can we be clear that all those disciplines report to the consultant in question first and, in this case, the concern is around the consultant role? It was not OT or social work that was the issue.

Ms Anne O'Connor

No. On how teams work and, unfortunately, healthcare is a very complex structure in general, disciplines report through their discipline's reporting line, which, to be clear, is not ideal. We have challenges as move forward with different integrated teams on that basis. However, the consultant is - I do not know if Dr. Burke or Dr. Young said this - the de facto clinical lead for the care of a patient. It is important to note, however, that disciplines do not report directly to the consultant. It is about patient care versus their reporting line.

Would it be fair to say that, practically, consultants run the team?

Ms Anne O'Connor

In deciding on the best course of action in respect of patient care, but not in respect of managing the team members.

The reason I ask that is this is a joint committee with the Oireachtas Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health. One of the things we have been doing on the mental health committee is pre-legislative scrutiny on the health amendment Bill. A few weeks ago, I was struck by the opening statement from the Irish Medical Organisation on the role of the consultant in multidisciplinary teams. According to its opening statement:

...a consultant is clinically independent and retains overall responsibility for the care of...[any] patient. While a consultant psychiatrist may consult, and frequently does, with other members of the multidisciplinary team with regard to aspects of a patient's treatment including involuntary detention, [or] any legal requirement to do, it poses a risk to patient safety, undermines the contractual responsibility of the consultant and blurs the lines of accountability.

What is being talked about there is something very specific, but it is instructive of a kind of reticence or concern around the role of consultants when making decisions on patient care. I ask for comments on the fact that we currently now have a team, or it seems to me the representatives have outlined that there is a team, where it is not clear that the consultant is in charge or has full reporting responsibility from every single discipline on that team and yet, in practical terms, that is what is happening on the ground. Is that providing the kind of trust and clarity needed in respect of decision-making for patients?

Ms Anne O'Connor

A critical issue for this particular team was that we did not have a consultant. That was problem number one. There was no consultant.

Somebody was acting in that role.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Yes, there was a locum. The challenge is, certainly for other team members, these are all professions regulated by CORU in their own right. We are into all sorts of different professional discussions but when it comes to patient care and, again, Dr. Young can advise on this, the consultant is the de facto lead. It is not that simple, however, because of each profession. There are some people who attend services who will predominantly attend one of the other disciplines. They will not necessarily attend the consultant all the time. Dr. Young might want to comment on how that team worked.

Dr. Maura Young

The consultant advises on the diagnosis, the treatment and the care plan. He or she advises, at a discussion with members of the multidisciplinary team, whether or not the person should have psychological input, social work input or OT input and he or she co-ordinates that. When the team is functioning properly, it is like the conductor of an orchestra bringing all the pieces together and making sure they are all working properly. As Ms O'Connor said, there was no consultant in this post to do that properly, which is why it then fell apart. There was a consultant providing oversight but that person was already managing a very busy patch and was not on the ground doing the day-to-day work, which needs to happen for a team to function efficiently.

Okay. I am out of time.

I am replacing Deputy Gino Kenny who cannot be here because he lost his mother this week. I am trying to catch up and familiarise myself with all the reports and so on from this committee in the past.

Following on from Deputy Hourigan's questioning, the answers seem to imply that a team will function properly where there is a consultant and overmedication, such as what happened in Kerry, would not happen. I ask for a comment on that implication. Are there any cases where consultants are in a situation where the overmedication of children is a regular occurrence? I am looking at the notes from the reports of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Future of Mental Health in 2018, which referenced a 2011 report from Mental Health Reform that showed there were:

significant gaps in primary care provision, [a] dominance of medication as a treatment option, [a] lack of referral options for GPs...[for] counselling, [for] psychotherapy...[a lack of] family therapy or Community...Health Teams [and] Continued use of Emergency Departments as access points for mental health services

It seems we are probably living in a system where consultants, or whomever, have little option but to medicate because other services are not available. I would like the representatives to comment on that.

My second question relates to parliamentary questions asked by Deputy Boyd Barrett. As far back as 2015, he has asked various Ministers for Health parliamentary questions about the kind of malpractice we are now dealing with, such as the overmedication of children. Last April, specifically, he asked the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, to "order a...review of the use and overuse of psychiatric medication in children across all CAMHS...services" and in particular to review the way chronic understaffing of CAMHS, and a complete failure to resource primary care, was leading to overmedication. Deputy Boyd Barrett says the Minister passed this review off to the HSE, which apparently brushed off the request for review. That goes back to April 2021. Did the Minister pass this request for review to HSE management? What was its response to that? Those are two very specific questions.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will start and Dr. Burke will respond to the issue of the medication of children. On CAMHS in general, it might be argued that mental health has been lucky in that we have had A Vision for Change for many years now, which has set a blueprint for the delivery of services that is based on multidisciplinary team working. With this growth, especially in CAMHS, and we have to remember CAMHS came from a certain place of a child guidance model, etc., we have sought through the development funding in mental health to develop those multidisciplinary supports, including our OTs, social workers, psychology, speech and language therapists and, in some cases, dieticians for eating orders, etc. However, as I said, we must remember that CAMHS is a very specialist mental health service and, in reality, we have prioritised early intervention.

This came from work that was done by the youth mental health task force a number of years ago. We have been prioritising the early intervention supports for children because we know that early intervention is the most important thing in terms youth mental health. This means having other organisations and working with our funded partners to provide supports to children earlier in their pathway of care and to provide supports, for example, in primary care.

Most children who present with a mental health difficulty attend their GP in the first instance. The priority is for the GP to have somewhere to send that child for support and that might not be a CAMHS service. A very small percentage of children attend a CAMHS service; many more attend other supports that are at the lower level of the pyramid in terms of how we provide our services.

Multidisciplinary care is essential. We have increased the number of teams but, equally, we have increased the numbers of those different disciplines across the team. We sought to invest in all of those multidisciplinary supports since the development funding started in 2011. We have seen significant increases in those areas. We will continue to do that and, certainly, in line with the ongoing implementation of Sharing the Vision, we will continue to invest in multidisciplinary care. Consultants and doctors are a key part and, as Dr. Young said, they are critical in terms of diagnosis, agreeing the care plan and, ultimately, prescribing, where it is relevant. However, as Dr. Burke said earlier, many children who attend CAMHS are not prescribed medication; they receive other interventions. I might ask Dr. Burke to comment on the medicating of children.

Dr. Amanda Burke

It is important to differentiate between the over-mediation of children and medicating in the absence of psychological intervention. They are different things. A psychiatrist taking a history from a young person will always view the case in terms of biological, which is the medication piece, and also in terms of the psychological and the social piece. A doctor would not prescribe for a child without the parts. They would not be done in isolation. However, we sometimes have challenges with psychological intervention. The vast majority of psychiatrists would also have pursued other studies in psychological interventions and would be therapy-trained. I do not want people to go away thinking that the only tool that psychiatrists have is medication. We think long and hard before we put any child on medication. Individual teams would have checks and balances in terms of medicating. It is not just part of a national audit; we audit ourselves. Individual teams audit themselves. Good practice would have multidisciplinary team meetings every week. Even though the consultant lead may not see every single person on the team, they would be part of the discussions. As Dr. Young said, they would sign off on the care plan for that individual. We never prescribe medication without looking at the other aspects for these young people. However, we have challenges in terms of psychological therapies. We also have waiting lists, which we are trying to work on.

I would also like to point out that as evidence base for treatments builds in, there are more and more specialist evidence-based and evidence-informed treatments. It is difficult to provide them everywhere. The evidence base for psychological therapies is for experienced practitioners who see people a lot with particular conditions and with fidelity to the model. In every generic CAMHS team, one may not be able to see that number of people or have those experienced practitioners. That is why, as part of the quality improvement and service development, we have been looking at the clinical programmes and developing hub-and-spoke models for these more specialised treatments, so that we can have fidelity to the model and specific clinical guidelines-----

Can I interrupt, please? I will run out of time and neither of my questions has been addressed. Is it possible that even where a consultant is in situation, over-medication could be a problem within CAMHS? Was the HSE asked by the Minister to review what was happening with the over-use of psychiatric medication in children in April 2015 and what was its response? Those two questions have not been answered or addressed. In the small bit of time we have left, could the witnesses please attempt to answer them?

Ms Anne O'Connor

In reverse order, I am not aware of that request. That does not mean that it was not made, but I would have to check that out. I do not have that information available to me here. I am not aware if that request was made or when it was made or what happened with it. We will have to come back to the Deputy on that.

If it was, one would imagine that Ms O'Connor would be aware if the Minister requested the HSE to review the medication of children in CAMHS.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I am personally not aware of it but I do not know if any of my colleagues are.

It would be expected that Ms O'Connor would be aware though, would it not?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Maybe, but not necessarily. As chief operations officer, I may or may not be made aware. I would have to check and see. That may have been dealt with somewhere within the organisation when it came in, but I am personally not aware of that request. I can check that out though and see if somebody within the team is.

In terms of whether it is possible, I am sure it is possible for there to be issues with prescribing even where there is a consultant in place. However, it is probably quite unlikely. Certainly, we have to work on the basis that it would be quite unlikely. Dr. Burke can share her view on that.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Again, just in terms of the normal check and balances, junior doctors would be supervised by senior doctors and consultants, and in areas they would have mandatory supervision weekly, not optional supervision. Consultants partake in continuing professional development. They have peer support groups. In my own area, we meet every month and we review challenging cases. We would have regular reviews of our clinical complaints. Again, in my own area we would do that fortnightly. We would look at our serious incidences, which would reviewed by a very high-level team and we would see if there is any learning from that, which would go through clinical governance committees. Therefore, there is a robust and tiered structure. Regrettably, this broke down in this particular incidence. However, in the vast majority of areas, and I want to reassure the people using our services because it is important we do that, there is good practice and very good practice in CAMHS. A lot of satisfaction is expressed by our service users in terms of the service that they get.

Would Deputy Bríd Smith pass on the committee's deepest sympathy to Deputy Gino Kenny and the wider family?

I certainly will.

I was not aware of his mother's passing.

I welcome our guests and thank them for coming in. I have listened to carefully and, like a number of other speakers, I am confused. One can probably speculate as to whether I was confused before listening to the dissertation or as a result of it. However, suffice it to say, I am thoroughly confused now. Has there been dissension within the administration of the services in the Cork-Kerry area?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will ask Mr. Fitzgerald.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Dissension in what context?

Dissension in any context whatsoever. There appears to be a dispute among management, administration, etc., as to what should be done in certain cases because the outcome has not been satisfactory. Therefore, there must be some correlation of opinions within the operation of the service. The question still stands. Is there dissension?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I am not aware of any dissension. All of the people in mental health services work tremendously hard and have had a very difficult number of years. Notwithstanding that, the Maskey report gives us a context whereby a significant incident happened, which led to significant bad outcomes for children. However, he also gives us 35 recommendations to implement and I think-----

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

It might be no harm-----

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Can I just say-----

Yes, Mr. Fitzgerald can.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

It might be no harm just the same. There are a few important things that Maskey asked us to do. He asked us to review the governance arrangements that are in place-----

Did the HSE review them?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

We only got the report in the end of January. We have a process that has already commenced to consult across our mental health services over the coming weeks.

Did the HSE have inquiries in this regard before the Maskey report? Were there other indications that everything was not running according to plan? For example, it appears that a number of situations were unsatisfactory. For instance, the governance group met every four months, which is totally inadequate to deal with the situation of running the services.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

In fairness, the Deputy is correct, because the Maskey report said it was an ineffective model for giving oversight. There is no argument in regard to that.

There are learnings in that regard. This is a complex area where there are multidisciplinary teams and we have outlined that complexity as best we can. In those circumstances, how can we ensure there is adequate governance of each team member as well as the team itself and the standards it operates to?

Does Mr. Fitzgerald agree that the governance structure did not work?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I completely agree. It did not work.

Patients suffered as a result.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I agree with that. That is what the Maskey report states.

That is fine. As a result, an inadequate service was provided to the people of the Kerry and Cork areas.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The Maskey report concentrated on the south Kerry team. Dr. Maskey found fault with regard to how the team was governed. There were also specific issues with regard to the oversight of the junior doctor, which led to significant issues. In fairness to Dr. Maskey, he is broader than that in his criticism and, as the Deputy said, he found fault with the oversight that was provided.

The governance structure did not work and when it became obvious that was the case, action was taken. Has that action been satisfactory? Has it dealt with the issues that have been raised? Have structures that will work been put in place? Those structures must not become a reason for further debate on the subject of the Kerry and Cork areas.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I can tell the Deputy that we have significant oversight in place with regard to the south Kerry team. However, we have work to do to consider what is the proper structure we need across Cork and Kerry to ensure proper oversight across the community healthcare organisation. That is the work that was asked of us in one of the recommendations of the Maskey report and, as I said earlier, that is what we are now starting to do.

Thankfully, Dr. Maskey has reported but even if he had not, was there not a serious need for a re-evaluation of the way the services were operating in the area, from the information made available?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I started in this role as chief officer in July 2020 as we were reforming other services across Cork and Kerry, and as we are doing across all our community healthcare organisations. We are looking at the development of community healthcare networks, in particular, with 14 community healthcare networks to be stood up across the areas of Cork and Kerry. Any services, including child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, teams and adult teams, need to be realigned in that context. That makes for better local governance arrangements and local ownership for services in Cork and Kerry. I was going to start that process anyway but the report has certainly helped to guide us in a more concentrated area as it relates to CAMHS.

My next question is an obvious one. When will the services be up to speed in every respect?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I will go back to the recommendations, some of which are key. One of those key recommendations is that we would have a consultant in place in south Kerry. Dr. Maskey also points out that we have a lot of work to do to create the conditions whereby we will attract a consultant to south Kerry. It may not be easy. While we have good cover in place at the moment from a consultant perspective, we would obviously like to have a permanent consultant in place. The governance arrangements certainly need to be reviewed so that we have ongoing oversight right across Cork and Kerry, and we must build our structures accordingly. We have a robust plan to implement all 35 recommendations and we will be working to that plan.

When the plan is implemented, will it be sufficient to assuage the fears of patients throughout the area?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The 35 recommendations made by Dr. Maskey cover a wide range of areas, as the Deputy knows. We will certainly have a better service when those recommendations are implemented.

I want to reassure people that while we have had significant issues in south Kerry, a lot of children are receiving services from the CAMHS teams across Cork and Kerry. I assure the families of children who go in each day and receive services from those multidisciplinary teams, the children themselves, and, indeed, the young adults who receive adult services and who might have come from CAMHS, that the service process is robust. We do not have concerns with regard to it now. We will also be guided by the national audit we spoke about earlier and each of the teams will be subject to an audit.

I thank our guests for being here. We have spoken an awful lot about the governance of CAMHS in south Kerry. I want to touch on probably the most important people, who are the children. I travelled to Tralee a few weeks ago and met parents and their children on the issues in south Kerry. Their stories are absolutely heartbreaking. I am going to relay one of them in as generic a fashion as possible so as not to give away the identity of the child, with the permission of the child and her parents. This child is now 16 years of age. In primary school, she showed some mild forms of anxiety after being subjected to bullying. Her parents and the school put things in place and then she thrived.

Outside the primary school, she was enthusiastic and eager to take part in extracurricular activities but she was nervous about the prospect of going from primary school to secondary school, as a lot of children are. She started getting anxious again in the last few weeks of her summer holidays over the prospect of a new uniform, new people, a new school and new surroundings. During the transition from primary school to secondary school, she started to suffer from panic attacks and her GP made a referral to north Kerry CAMHS. She had just turned 14 at this stage in 2019. She was immediately put on Prozac and melatonin. This is returning to what was said earlier about other treatments being undertaken in conjunction with medication. Her parents immediately asked what other treatments were available and she was put on a long waiting list for cognitive behavioural therapy.

On the third visit to the CAMHS, her medication was increased. She was turning into a virtual recluse. Her parents reported, as did the girl herself when I met her, that she started losing her personality and her smile, which was heartbreaking to see. She was having trouble sleeping and was prescribed a sleeping tablet. This sleeping tablet was Tevaquel, which the young girl found out by reading the leaflet is an anti-psychotic medication. As I said, her personality went and she started losing touch with reality.

In February 2021, she was moved from north Kerry CAMHS to south Kerry CAMHS, where she had her first interaction with Dr. Sharma, who, as we know, is the whistleblower. He immediately took her off the medication she was prescribed. In his professional opinion, she was on the wrong medication. Her parents, like any parents, including me, trust medical experts when it comes to the care of our children. I must say the trust in CAMHS among parents and children is now at an all-time low. I deal with this issue every day of the week. This girl's parents reported that their daughter had missed many opportunities in life because of being over-medicated or misdiagnosed. Her parents then received a letter from the HSE - from Mr. Fitzgerald, in fact. I have it in front of me. Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned he has a team working with him but this is one of the most badly written letters I have ever seen. It is littered with spelling mistakes. It was very disappointing for the parents to receive this letter. Spelling mistakes aside, this letter stated that on review of her files, there was no adverse outcome or issue of concern. This was one of the 1,332 files that were reviewed by CAMHS and this girl is not one of the 227 who have been deemed at risk of harm nor is she one of the 46 children placed at a risk of significant harm. Did the CAMHS team actually sit down, meet and have a conversation with any of the parents or children prior to sending out these letters? Was that a part of the review?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Part of the review was a file review on each of the cases during that period of time and from that file review it was identified that 240 children, some of whom are now young adults, were at risk of harm or significant harm. It was for those particular children that the open disclosure set of meetings took place. Each meeting was set up or offered to the families or to the young adults to discuss with them, in detail, the findings of the file review and also to discuss where they were with regard to services. Some of those people came back into service once again while others required or requested more follow through. The files for the cases to which the Deputy is referring were considered by Dr. Maskey and his team. On the basis of the file review, they were of the view that there was not a specific issue arising but that is not to say, importantly, that those people's experiences or their concerns are in any way minimised. They may not have been satisfied with aspects of-----

I am sorry to cut across Mr. Fitzgerald. I know that we cannot speak about individual cases which was why my question was as general as possible. In a number of cases, parents and children feel that they were left out of the review process and that their personal testimonies were not taken on board. Are there any plans to go back and rectify this so that the voices of these children and their parents can be heard? To get a letter like the one the family received, having been through so much heartbreak and trauma while trying to get the best possible care for their daughter, was not acceptable. When they met the locum psychiatrist, Dr. Sharma, he immediately said that the child was on the wrong medication and changed it but still this child is not one of the 227 deemed to have been at risk of harm. Will there be retrospective consideration of these files?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Throughout this process, we have had a helpline open. We have dealt with a number of cases and queries from families within the group of 240 as well as from families not in that group. As the Deputy said, a number of people raised concerns and issues and we have reviewed some of those cases to date and have been dealing with some of the requests that have come in from those families on an ongoing basis. There have not been a lot of cases outside of the 240 but our business is to try to deal with any cases where there are ongoing concerns.

In terms of the prescribing methods described earlier, is it normal practice to prescribe Prozac and other medications for children on a first visit to CAMHS?

Ms Anne O'Connor

In the absence of the specifics of a case, it is very hard to comment but I will ask Dr. Burke to respond.

Dr. Amanda Burke

Obviously I am not commenting on specific cases but it would not be standard practice to prescribe an anti-depressant on a first visit. However, everything has to be contextualised in terms of previous history, family history, genetics and so on. Fluoxetine, or Prozac, which is the trade name, is a licensed prescription. It is one of the few licensed prescriptions for depression and it has been proven to be effective but we would never look at that in isolation, without looking at the psychological and social aspects as well.

Would Dr. Burke accept that in some cases in CAMHS in Kerry, medication was considered in isolation and was seen as the only treatment available? It was the only treatment that was being given to children.

Dr. Amanda Burke

While I have read the Maskey report, I am not working in Kerry so I cannot comment on the specifics in that county.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will ask Dr. Young to respond to that question.

Dr. Maura Young

As the Maskey report outlines, it was the case that other treatments were not looked at and that is why Dr. Maskey uses the term "inappropriately prescribed". Medications such as anti-psychotics, in the main, were inappropriately prescribed, rather than looking at other psychological therapies.

In a number of cases, medication was inappropriately prescribed to children. Psychological supports were not made available in tandem with medication and yet the parents of the child to whom I referred earlier received a letter to say no harm was done the child. Something is not adding up here in terms of the letters that were sent to families and the treatment children received.

Dr. Maura Young

I cannot answer that because I am not aware of the specific details and it would not be appropriate to comment in this forum on a specific case. What I can say is that where medication was prescribed by a consultant, that was deemed to be with the knowledge and awareness of the consultant. They are on a specialist register and have the experience and training to do that. As Dr. Burke said, although it would not be usual practice to prescribe an anti-depressant on the first visit, it can and does happen. The consultant may have looked at the case and determined that it was appropriate for an anti-depressant to be prescribed in the first instance.

Yes, but it was said earlier that it should never have happened without psychological supports also being put in place. In this particular case and in several other cases in Kerry, that just did not happen.

We will move on now to Senator Frances Black.

I welcome our witnesses today. I ask them to talk us through the prescribing audit. Children and young people are referred to CAMHS with many different issues including self-harm, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies, ADHD and so on. We are talking about a very broad range of complex needs and in that context, I am interested in how the audit will work. I understand that it will be an independent, random sample audit of a proportion of the caseload and I am interested in the finer details. It is vitally important that confidence is rebuilt and parents are reassured. Will it work in the same way as the audit in Kerry, where red flags were raised and a full look-back of files was commissioned, resulting in the Maskey report? Why narrow the scope of the review? Should the aim not be to conduct as thorough a review as possible? If there are problems on a wider scale, how will narrowing the scope of the review identify the issues and what needs to be fixed?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will start on that question. As we said earlier, the focus of the audit will be in line with the Maskey report and its recommendations and in line with our expert clinical advice. We have spent a lot of time considering this. Myself and the chief clinical officer have had many meetings with clinical leaders and others in the organisation and the expert clinical advice remains that the design and scope of the audit should focus on the prescribing practice for ADHD. That is what we are focused on in terms of the use of medication. However, as I said earlier, the key challenge for us is to identify the standard criteria against which we would be carrying out that audit. That does not exist here. We cannot just pick something off a shelf and do an audit against those criteria. That work is being developed. There has been a lot of work going on to determine how that will be.

The other point that I would make, although Dr. Burke might be better qualified than me to comment on this, is that a lot of prescribing for children in respect of depression and anxiety happens through GPs in the first instance. There are many children on medication which has not been prescribed by CAMHS teams. Once we get into the broader prescribing landscape, we get into a whole range of complexities. We are starting with the ADHD audit but as that audit progresses, if flags emerge in respect of prescribing practices we will look at it in more detail.

As I also said earlier, the plans around this audit will go the national oversight group tomorrow afternoon, which is the scheduled first meeting of that group.

In the opening statement today, reference was made to the HSE's primary care services for children and young people and to Jigsaw services. One of the findings of the Maskey report on south Kerry CAMHS was that the team was accepting more referrals than was the norm in other CAMHS teams. We know that when primary care psychology services are under-resourced, this can put more pressure on CAMHS teams.

How many primary care psychologists are employed by the HSE in the south Kerry region? How many primary care psychologists are employed in north Kerry? How many attempts has the HSE made to recruit primary care psychologists in south Kerry and north Kerry in the past five years? What is the population of south and north Kerry, respectively? I am trying to get many questions in before my time is up.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will look to Mr. Ryan, our head of operations, in respect of primary care psychology, nationally, and then maybe Mr. Fitzgerald. I am not sure we have data on specifics around primary care psychology here but we can come back to the Senator with that information, if we do not have it. Does Mr. Ryan want to comment on investment in primary care psychology?

Mr. Jim Ryan

Nationally, we are very aware, from a secondary care point of view, that we need to bolster primary care, especially psychology. One of the initiatives we have taken over the past number of years is the development of primary care assistant psychologists. We have funded 120 assistant psychologists from secondary care mental health services for primary care, nationally, on the basis that we know that they do some very good work at primary care level in working with the psychologists that we already have and they also provide online support. More fundamentally, many of them go on to the doctor programme to become psychologists within the system and mental health services.

That figure of 120 is growing. In other words, we have 120 at any particular time. We have new people coming in as others move out of the system. With regard to secondary care and mental health services and what Ms O'Connor said earlier, CAMHS is for 2% of the population and we need to make sure that 2% is adequately and appropriately met, rather than a situation where people end up on a CAMHS waiting list for services that should be provided with services in primary care.

I am not sure of the specifics in either north or south Kerry. Mr. Fitzgerald may have more information. If we do not, we can certainly get it to the Senator.

I would like to get those details. I would very much appreciate that. I will ask some questions about the whistleblower who brought the issue in south Kerry CAMHS to the attention of the witnesses. Families of young people who attended the service spoke very highly of Dr. Sharma and how he addressed with them the issue around excessive medication and its prescription. It must be stated that the harm caused to young people in south Kerry CAMHS may not have been addressed without his courage. I want to highlight that.

He said publicly that negative treatment he received after blowing the whistle on the issues of south Kerry CAMHS left him with no option but to resign from his role. He said he was asked to take time off and was stripped of his role as the clinical lead and reassigned to administrative duties, on the basis he was in danger of burnout, even though he denied that he was. This is one of several recent cases of HSE whistleblowers who have shown immense courage in their work and have alleged punishment from the organisation. Will Mr. Fitzgerald tell me who in his local management team was responsible for reassigning Dr. Sharma to administrative duties?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I agree with the Senator in the context of the service that the locum consultant provided and his raising of the concern which was picked up on straightaway by the clinical director and the executive clinical director and ultimately led to the full look-back review being undertaken. In his work, not only did he raise the concern, he also worked extremely hard to identify children for whom there were concerns with regard to their over-medication or where incorrect medication was being provided to the children, especially while we were doing the audit of the 50 cases. The outcome of the audit of the 50 cases helped us to fashion the overall look-back review terms of reference for Dr. Maskey's report. I will not comment on specifics with regard to anything other than that. I do not want to comment specifically about individual cases, etc.

I am aware that in a radio interview on "Kerry Today" in January, Mr. Fitzgerald said he would investigate the allegations made by Dr. Sharma that he had been sidelined in this career since becoming a whistleblower. Will Mr. Fitzgerald tell us how he proposes to investigate those allegations and a timeline of when he plans to do so?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

As I understand it, there may be ongoing correspondence with Dr. Sharma with regard to that matter.

My final questions relate to Dr. Maskey and the eight other people who assisted him in the review of south Kerry CAMHS and how they were selected for the roles. Who was part of the selection process? Were they chosen by HSE management or by others? What was the selection process?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I commissioned the look-back review and agreed on the terms of reference that we followed in the look-back review process. Dr. Maskey was an independent consultant. We had put out the ask to see whether someone would support the process and he undertook it. We had some discussions with him with regard to how we would undertake the review. It is significant work. It is necessary, of course, but it is a huge undertaking to start from scratch in order to review the files over a wide range of years. Logistics, clinical and senior management were required to undertake it in a appropriate way.

We were led and guided by Dr. Maskey on the look-back review process as to how we would undertake it. We chose people who had clinical expertise in order to be able to identify the issues that would be of concern with regard to the file review that was undertaken. Behind that was an infrastructure of administrative and senior management in order to ensure that it was undertaken in a timely and appropriate manner and done in the context of data protection, etc.

I do not have any more questions, but the independence of the Maskey report has been called into question by a solicitor acting on behalf of the families and by Deputy Connolly. There has been call for a new report that is fully independent of the HSE. We are aware of that. My time is up now. I thank the witnesses.

I will share my time with Deputy Griffin who is from the constituency and has worked extensively on this. I have considerable regard for Ms O'Connor and the work she does but, I have to say, what has been revealed here this morning in terms of a management structure is breathtaking. People were reporting to people but, clearly, no reporting was being done at all. The structure was so over-managed that it was not managed.

The most breathtaking revelation here is that individuals who had supervisors were only supervised when they requested such. Is that an accurate description? Where else in the HSE do we have a situation in which somebody is tasked with the responsibility of supervising people, but only do so when those people look for supervision? I have never heard of that type of situation existing anywhere. Will Ms O'Connor comment on that? How could it be described as being appropriate?

Ms Anne O'Connor

The supervision in this case was not appropriate. It is not okay that somebody chooses not to engage in supervision and that it is not followed up on. From my own perspective and what I see across our system, there is a very proactive approach to supervision. We have a model of clinical supervision and one has to remember-----

Is that structure, where supervisors are in place who only supervise when asked to do so, applicable across the service, nationally?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Supervision is a core part of how we deliver our services and, again, I will ask one of my clinical director colleagues to comment in terms of clinical supervision. Generally speaking, it is not adequate. What I see across our system in general is a very strong commitment to supervision. It must be said that his is across all disciplines, it must be said. Supervision is not just a medical factor; it is a clinical supervision model that happens in all of our clinical disciplines. As I said, all of our clinical disciplines working in these services are professionally registered in their own right through the respective body. In this case, it was not adequate. Certainly, given the concerns that have been raised here around the governance and management structures, we acknowledge they did not work, which is something that, as Mr. Fitzgerald said, is being reviewed in Cork and Kerry. We are also looking at it. As I said, we do have operational guidance-----

Does Ms O'Connor understand, from the ordinary person's perspective, that the logic of somebody requesting to be supervised when somebody else is paid and tasked with the job of supervising does not make sense? The HSE is a big organisation. I would be very concerned that that type of structure is prevalent in other areas of the organisation. As a committee, we need to look at that.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I want to clarify something. What is important in this instance is to remember that the doctor in question was working and being covered by a consultant from another team. In the ordinary run of events, there are junior doctors working on a team under the supervision of a consultant in the same area. That would be normal practice and Dr. Amanda Burke has out set out some of the checks and balances that are in place in her area. What is different here is that we had a consultant who was already managing her own team elsewhere, overseeing or cross-covering in effect, and that is not ideal at all. That is where the flaws arose. In general, a junior doctor will be supervised by the consultant.

I have a question for Dr. Young. In her answers to Deputy Colm Burke, she made the point that a couple of locums have come and gone and there was a particular locum who came but left because he had issues, to quote what Dr. Young said earlier. Was an exit interview carried out with that locum and what were the learnings from that exit interview?

Dr. Maura Young

Again, it is hard to talk about specific cases. There were difficulties. I understand it ended up with a referral to the Irish Medical Council on that point. That was the issue I was talking around.

With all of this over-management and all of these structures, with one reporting in to the other and nobody reporting in to anybody, it seems there is very poor supervision and appalling management. It is going to cost the taxpayer millions upon millions that could easily have been spent improving care. That is appalling. I will hand over to Deputy Griffin.

I thank Senator Conway for sharing his time and thank the Chair for facilitating me. I welcome the witnesses and I acknowledge the many people who are watching, particularly the families and people in south Kerry affected by this really outrageous sequence of events. There are many questions still to be answered. Serious improvements in services and interventions are needed given the people at the very heart of this issue are still not getting what they require.

I want to ask in particular about the complaints and the flagging of concerns that came from service users and their families over the years. How many of those are there and are those records kept? Given people were raising their concerns and highlighting deficiencies in the services, such as concerns about over-medication or that culture of medication as distinct from other types of interventions, are all of those records still there? Has there been an internal review in regard to why those concerns that were raised were not acted upon? What systems are in place now and what changes are going to be made? Will the witnesses speak to that?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I do not have that to hand. We have a complaints policy, Your Services, Your Say, which is the HSE’s formal policy. I do not have it to hand but I will make available the number of complaints and the years concerned with regard to the south Kerry CAMHS service. To answer the second part of the question as to what improvements there have been, thankfully, we have a very significant and challenging but very important roadmap on the 35 recommendations to be put in place. That will help us to improve the service and to take us away from the issues we have had here. Again, whether they be the issues related to governance, oversight or supervision, each of them is dealt with in the key recommendations that are made by Dr. Maskey. We have not waited to go about implementing those particular pieces and, very importantly, we have put in place a co-ordinator of services within the south Kerry CAMHS team, even on an interim basis while we fill it on a permanent basis going forward. That was one of the key recommendations in Dr. Maskey's report.

What are the consequences where we have complaints in writing and flares going up about issues, but nothing is done? We are looking at all of these records but what are the actual consequences for people who clearly dropped the ball here? What is going to happen?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

There are a number of things that I have done as I have got the information. Dr. Young, in her role as executive clinical director, referred the matters to the Medical Council, which is an appropriate oversight body with regard to the medical-related issues that are there. The Deputy will know that I have also referred the matter to the Garda and we would also have referred matters to Tusla. Each of those are the significant matters that have been dealt with to date.

In the short time I have left, I want to raise a specific and tragic case. In September of last year, my office was approached by the family of a young child who had presented at south Kerry CAMHS with the child's mother. They were sent away and told they would be contacted but they were not contacted at all. Two weeks after that, the child took their own life. I flagged this subsequently with the HSE. A review was initiated and it has now been going on for six months. How long does it take to establish what happened in such a scenario? To me, this is taking far too long and we need to have answers to this particular case. As I said, it is a tragic case. We have had discussions in regard to the wording of the report and whether there were catastrophic consequences or not for the children involved. This was certainly catastrophic for this family and this child is no longer with their family. Can we please have answers in regard to what happened with that case and what will be done about it?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

That particular case is the subject of a serious incident management review at this point. We await the outcome of that. There is a sensitive and very specific process of reviewing any such tragic outcomes. That, in itself, will come to us over the coming period. I am expecting that to come back to us over the coming months.

Can Mr. Fitzgerald expand on how long it would normally take in a case like that? It is a reasonable question to ask.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

We try to complete any such incident review as soon as we possibly can but they can be quite complicated. I am not referring to this particular incident and I want to be very careful of that. That will be done in consultation with the families and people concerned. It can sometimes take some time in order to achieve a full review. I assure the Deputy that the review is ongoing at this point.

I stress the importance of urgency and of ensuring there is no undue delay. Delaying, procrastinating and dragging out a process like this causes further hardship and difficulty for everybody involved, particularly for the family.

This needs to be given urgent priority by the HSE. It is of critical importance.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I would like to answer that to reassure people it is being given the highest priority by myself as chief officer. I am aware of the cases the Deputy has spoken about and I can assure him it is very much in my review process on an ongoing basis to ensure that will be completed. It is important to acknowledge the fact the reviews undertaken by the look-back team and Dr. Maskey, which was of a significant number of files, as I mentioned earlier, was undertaken during a period when we had two major ongoing concerns, one of them being the ongoing Covid-19-related issues and the other being the cyberattack which downed our IT system for a period of time. That look-back was undertaken as quickly as possible because we were sensitive to the requirement to try to provide answers to those who were affected in south Kerry.

I thank the witnesses. I will put all my questions sensitively because there are families who are still grieving and hurt by what happened. We must have that lens very clearly with us when we look at these issues and ask our questions. Obviously, families want answers but they also want accountability.

I will start with Mr. Fitzgerald who is the chief officer. In earlier discussions, there was confusion as to who was ultimately responsible. Initially, it was the executive clinical director, ECD, but then Mr. Fitzgerald said he was ultimately responsible. Does he report to the ECD or does the ECD report to him?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

The executive clinical director reports to me through the head of mental health services.

Does the ECD report to Mr. Fitzgerald?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Yes.

The opening statement from the HSE stated the Maskey report identified a number of deficits in respect of governance, supervision and oversight, clinical practice and administrative processes within the south Kerry CAMHS team. There was an acceptance earlier that there was a failure in clinical supervision. I accept Mr. Fitzgerald accepts there was a failure in clinical supervision.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Yes.

Mr. Fitzgerald accepts there was a failure. That is what I wanted to hear. Who is ultimately responsible for the management and the process of clinical supervision within south Kerry CAMHS?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I was struggling to answer this earlier on. Again, it is in the context of multidisciplinary teams.

No, I am talking about at the top. Who is ultimately responsible for making sure there is good, sound clinical supervision?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

At the very top, it is myself as the chief officer-----

Can I stop Mr. Fitzgerald there? It is Mr. Fitzgerald at the very top. If the HSE accepts there was a failure in clinical governance and the buck stops with Mr. Fitzgerald, does that mean there was a failure on his part in his role, if there was a clear failure of clinical supervision in this case?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I might just-----

No, I am putting the questions to Mr. Fitzgerald. He is ultimately responsible for clinical supervision. This is my time. We go around the houses but people want to know who is responsible for what. I am putting my questions to Mr. Fitzgerald and asking him to answer those questions. He accepted there was a failure in terms of clinical supervision. He accepted also that, ultimately, if we go to the top, the buck stops with him. In that scenario, and when we talk about people stepping up and taking responsibility, does Mr. Fitzgerald accept any failure on his part in his role, given that the buck stops with him and given there is an acceptance of a failure in clinical supervision?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

First of all I accept completely there was a failure of clinical supervision. Obviously, all the failures Dr. Maskey outlined in his report are failures from a systems perspective, right through our system. I accepted the report in full because I commissioned it with the terms of reference it had, which were to consider and investigate the totality of the requirements.

I know about the report. I think Mr. Fitzgerald knows what my question is. I will put the question again. Des he in his role as chief officer, because that is what he is and these are very senior and very well-paid roles, accept responsibility for any of the failures given that the buck stops with him? It is a very clear, simple question. It cannot be any simpler.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I am the chief officer and in that role I have the full responsibility for all the services provided across Cork and Kerry. In terms of any failure that has happened within the system, of course I have responsibility in regard to those roles.

I will put the question in a different way. Is it not his job to make sure there is good, sound clinical supervision within those services?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Yes, ultimately, it is my responsibility to ensure that is the case.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Deputy, I have to come in and say that Mr. Michael Fitzgerald came into the role in 2020. He was not in post for the period of time the look-back review referred to.

Okay. We go back to who was in the role previously. This is the problem. We have all these hearings. Nobody takes responsibility for anything. It is always somebody else's fault or somebody else's responsibility. If we have a report that tells us very clearly there were failures in governance, supervision, oversight, clinical practice, administrative processes, then there were clearly failures in management and people need to step up and accept responsibility for failures in management. It never happens. It is not happening again today. People are not accepting responsibility for failures. I accept Mr. Fitzgerald came into his post in 2020. Then we need to look at who was in the post before that. Is that person accepting responsibility? These failures had consequences for children.

I want to put a number of questions in regard to the treatment of the whistleblower. If allegations are raised by the whistleblower and if actions are taken on foot of those allegations, whose responsibility is it to engage with the whistleblower? Ultimately, at the top, whose responsibility is it?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I think I answered this. I answered very carefully because I do not want to specifically discuss this particular case. I do not think it is fair that we should be discussing a specific case in great detail. I said earlier that the whistleblower, which the Deputy called them, worked very well in the context of identifying the problems and the issues there, and worked to try to ensure to resolve those particular issues for the children-----

Can I ask if the whistleblower was asked to take time off?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I am not commenting on that particular matter.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

It is unfair to the person.

It would be unfair if he was asked to take time off. We cannot get answers to that question. This is the Oireachtas committee which is looking into these issues. One of the issues which arises out of this saga is the treatment of a whistleblower. It is in the public domain. Many things have been said which may or may not be true. We are here, as Oireachtas Members, to get to the truth of what happened and to establish the facts of what happened. Mr. Fitzgerald, the man who is ultimately responsible for answering these questions, is saying he is not in a position to do so.

I will put all the questions I was going to put in regard to the whistleblower. Was he asked, as a whistleblower, to take time off? Was he reassigned from his clinical duties? Was he removed from his clinical lead role? I think they are reasonable questions to ask. Here is a person who stepped forward and who outlined clearly what was wrong and many issues are in the public domain. Is Mr. Fitzgerald in a position today to clear up once and for all if it was the case that this whistleblower was asked to take time off, was reassigned from his clinical duties or was removed from the clinical lead role that he was in?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

As I said earlier, I am not going to comment on those particular matters.

Can Mr. Fitzgerald give me an answer as to why he will not comment?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Again I am going to come in and say that I am aware the chief officer has been in contact with the whistleblower and they have exchanged correspondence. It is not appropriate for us to answer the questions the Deputy is asking in this forum.

Why not? I do not understand why it is not appropriate to answer those questions. That process can be ongoing. There are many processes ongoing. There is going to be an audit into all CAMHS services. We are asking questions on other issues when there are processes ongoing as well.

It strikes me again that this is the first opportunity members have had to put questions about what happened to this whistleblower, but we cannot get information. When will those questions be answered? When will we, as Oireachtas Members, have answers to the questions I am putting?

Ms Anne O'Connor

There will be a process under way in respect of the issues that have been raised by Dr. Sharma, as Mr. Fitzgerald said earlier, in reviewing the concerns he has raised and making sure they have been addressed, particularly around the concerns Dr. Sharma has raised about his own treatment. They are being examined.

I will make a comment rather than ask a question. When people say there is a lack of a culture of accountability and transparency in the HSE, I look to all of the good staff across the HSE and in our public hospitals and public services who do great work. At the top and at management level, however, there is not a culture of accountability and transparency. It is absolutely unacceptable that the questions I put cannot be answered. I do not accept the logic of the response I received. The whistleblower was treated very shabbily, and it is not the first time this has happened when a whistleblower has come forward about issues within the HSE. It is completely unacceptable. The quicker we have a new culture of accountability and transparency in our health services, the better.

As a member of the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health, I welcome our guests. I thank the chief operating officer for highlighting that Mr. Fitzgerald took up his role in 2020. I acknowledge the awful findings to emerge from this report. It is important that we have people of experience, including a psychiatrist with an eminent reputation, managing the report that has come out. I hope it will be managed in a swift way because we need to see actions now. I thank Dr. Amanda Burke from CHO 2, which covers counties Galway, Roscommon and Mayo, who is also on the call.

I will pose my questions to Ms O'Connor and Dr. Burke. We in the west are always fighting for investment in our CHOs and primary care services. The challenge in rural areas is that we cannot get multidisciplinary teams because we do not have centres of excellence. When trying to encourage the recruitment of psychiatrists and other high-profile experts in health care, the challenge is that they want to be based in Dublin, Galway or Limerick city centres. How do we get those experts and make change to ensure centres of excellence are spread around regional areas? In that way, we would develop training around multidisciplinary teams that will be in place to support the recruitment of key roles. I believe the challenges with recruitment are one of the real reasons we are seeing the awful impacts on families and children highlighted in this report. This has always been an issue and is currently an issue in the HSE. That is my first question.

Are there ways to streamline the recruitment process to get key people into position quicker when we identify them? When I worked with people in the HSE I learned a great word, which I have mentioned before, namely, "backfill". How do we manage when we cannot put a person into a position because he or she is already in a position somewhere else? This needs to be tackled. I put those questions to Ms O'Connor and Dr. Burke.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Before I hand over to Dr. Burke, I will address the point made by the Senator about recruitment in rural areas. Across the board, whether it is in our mental health services or acute hospital services, we are very challenged at times to get people to move into specialist services when they are not close to the big teaching hospitals. We have seen that in this case and, unfortunately, we see it in a number of specialty areas. This is a challenge we have in the system. We must look at how we can work differently. Telehealth has certainly supported this across a range of specialties, particularly building on the Covid experience. There is an onus on us to work differently.

There is also an onus around the broader recruitment piece. We have initiated a lot of work in the past 18 months with the Public Appointments Service, PAS, which carries out our consultant recruitment, to improve that process. We are working very closely with PAS, which has put in place significant changes and great additionality in respect of recruitment capacity to speed up that process. The Senator is absolutely right that we can identify people and yet it can take a very long time.

One of the key challenges too is that we must stop thinking about consultants in isolation. Advertising for a consultant post on its own is no longer enough. We must, in effect, sell the whole service. For example, when establishing a new team that is funded through development funding, we would promote that as a team so that a consultant coming in knows that he or she has people around them. One consultant on his or her own cannot deliver everything that we ask in the absence of having a team. I will ask Dr. Burke to comment also.

Whether it is the Saolta University Health Care Group or in the Limerick and Kerry areas, we also need areas of excellence for advanced nurse practitioners and clinical nurse specialists within our hospitals. There must be training for people who are located in that area who can then perhaps transfer into the primary care network or CHOs. Unless we have that expertise in each of our hospitals, we will not be able to develop that sort of regional expertise that would feed into those other roles.

With regard to ehealth and investment in technology to support the telehealth aspects, is it feasible to have an electronic patient record that will integrate primary care and the hospital network? We have seen great advances over the past year or two years. Can we see this supporting the GP network, which is our first port of call with mental health?

Ms Anne O'Connor

The Senator will be aware that we do not have a single electronic health record that cuts across our community and acute services. We do, however, have a number of building blocks that we are developing. For example, we have the newborn and maternity system. That is very effective and has been brought in at a number of maternity sites. We have a big process under way for our primary care information system. In primary care services there are individuals tracking the records. However, there is no single system and certain areas have makeshift solutions in place. We are now developing, in line with the roll-out of the enhanced community care teams, a more comprehensive primary care information system. A lot of the building blocks from a technological perspective will be in place and those can be built up as we develop an electronic health record.

I acknowledge the engagement with Oireachtas Members some two years ago when we were given an overview of mental health within the CHOs in our areas. It would be very useful of that were to happen again with Oireachtas Members in each area.

I will ask Dr. Burke about CHOs. I expect the position in Kerry is very similar to that in Galway, Roscommon and Mayo. What are the challenges with recruitment? Are there one or two key areas we could look at, especially in rural areas and small towns with hospitals, such as Portiuncula University Hospital or Roscommon University Hospital and their equivalent in Kerry, Limerick and so on? How do we drive the connection between our CHOs and expertise within the hospitals that might support recruiting people into our areas?

Dr. Amanda Burke

I thank the Senator for her questions and for being so supportive of our models.

I want to look at the use of e-mental health in supporting our rural areas. It is not about denuding - quite the opposite. I will talk about our own area for the purposes of illustration. We brought in a CAMHS connect model. Essentially, this is to do exactly what the Senator described, namely, connecting all of our different pieces of the model. Centres of excellence can be everywhere. They tend to be in our urban centres. It is important to recognise that most of the serious mental illness happens late in adolescence, and is now happening to young people into their early 20s. These young people tend to be in urban centres attached to universities. This is an important first point.

Consultants and consultant teams prefer to work in teams. It is much easier to recruit to our urban centres. As I said, the evidence base for treatments is around people who do treatments a lot. Sometimes we do not have patient cohorts. For example, if we take psychosis, one would only see a small number of those patients in a community mental health team in any particular year. To get the real expertise to look after these people one needs to have a centre of excellence. One can then provide to the spokes, and consultation into the spokes, via a combination of e-mental health and in person services. Nobody is saying that e-mental health is a complete solution. We are talking about an adjunct. Certainly, the feedback we have received from young people as regards relationships is that we might see them face-to-face for the first appointment in an urban centre and then continue the appointments with e-mental health solutions. They might also have a key worker in the local community supporting them.

We need to look at our clinical care programmes, for example, for deliberate self-harm, early intervention in psychosis and eating disorder programmes, in the context of a hub and spoke model going forward.

I would like to see more qualified advanced nurse practitioners and clinical nurse specialists working and supporting the network of teams there. That is key. I have a question for Ms O'Connor. She mentioned the role of the national director, which she held prior to 2017. She also mentioned the challenges between the way the systems were set up then and the way they are set up now. Is there a timeline for that role? If changes needed to be made to the remit of that role to accommodate the new changes within the HSE, what would those be?

Ms Anne O'Connor

We do not have that role. What we are looking at is the design of the health system as we develop the RHAs. The role of the national centre will be to look at the functions. The national director role was a position for mental health that had not existed previously in terms of the visibility of mental health and the focus on it. We have to ensure that those things are built into any future model for health service delivery. As it stands, we do not have a role for a national director of mental health, and nor do we have a national director for primary care or social care as we had previously. We had a number of national director roles based on siloed working previously.

There needs to be more integration between primary care and the hospital network.

Ms Anne O'Connor

Yes, completely. I am very passionate about mental health and my clinical background is in mental health. We will not get where we need to be unless it is integrated into health services and unless we have equal access at a primary care level to mental health supports and our specialist mental health services work like that for people who are in need of tertiary specialist mental health services. We have done a lot of good work but there is a long way to go. As we roll out Sláintecare, and as we look at the needs of populations, we have to build in that early intervention and early access to promote the mental health of the population.

There is a lot of work to do and we are here to support the witnesses but we have to avoid something like this happening again. That is our role here today.

I reiterate my request for a diagram showing the management structures of CAMHS in south Kerry. I ask that we get that as soon as possible. The personnel changed in 2020. Who were the chief officer and the ECD responsible for south Kerry CAMHS up to 2020?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Mr. Fitzgerald's predecessor retired in 2020. Mr. Ger Reaney was the chief officer prior to him. I would have to check the name of the ECD prior to Dr. Young.

Dr. Maura Young

Darra Phelan

Ms Anne O'Connor

It was Dr. Darra Phelan.

Do either of these people have any involvement with HSE services at the moment?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I am not aware that they have.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I am not aware that they have. I am fairly sure they do not.

I want to go back to the issue of the whistleblower. We are told the whistleblower was reassigned to administrative duties. Who in the local management team was responsible for reassigning Dr. Sharma to administrative duties?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I do not think it is appropriate to get into the ins and outs of what was said to Dr. Sharma, when or by whom in this forum.

I am not asking what was said. I am asking who was responsible for reassigning Dr. Sharma to administrative duties. It is a straightforward question. Can I have the name of the person who was responsible?

Ms Anne O'Connor

The Deputy is saying that this is what she heard happened. The engagement in respect of Dr. Sharma is continuing. Any discussions with Dr. Sharma would have happened at a local level.

I want Ms O'Connor to answer the question, please.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I genuinely do not have the name. I look to Mr. Fitzgerald in terms of-----

How did it come about that Dr. Sharma was reassigned to administrative duties?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I do not want to go into specific detail with regard to that for the simple reason that it is part of an ongoing discussion or an ongoing set of correspondences, as Ms O'Connor outlined earlier.

That is beside the point. I am asking who in south Kerry was responsible for reassigning Dr. Sharma to administrative duties.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

Again, we are getting into a very specific set of circumstances about an individual. In fairness-----

It is about a whistleblower. I am asking how it came about that the whistleblower was reassigned to administrative duties. Can Mr. Fitzgerald please explain that?

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

To be fair to all the parties concerned, and given that there are ongoing discussions with regard to this particular matter, it would be unfair of me to give specific details-----

This is a management action that was taken by somebody in south Kerry. Who took that decision? How did it happen that Dr. Sharma was reassigned?

Ms Anne O'Connor

We have been clear that we do not feel we can answer the question specifically.

I am entitled to ask the question-----

Ms Anne O'Connor

Absolutely.

-----and I think we deserve an answer to it. This is about establishing accountability for the awful treatment of so many children in south Kerry. Unless we can get to the bottom of that and find out what was done, or not done, in response, as well as what the response was to the whistleblower, we are never going to learn lessons from this. I am asking about the treatment of the whistleblower and specifically about how he was reassigned.

Ms Anne O'Connor

What I am saying to the Deputy is that there is a continuing process of engagement with that individual as we sit here. It is not appropriate for us to comment or answer the question the Deputy is asking at this time.

It is not acceptable that senior people from the HSE come here and refuse to answer questions about a very basic issue relating to the treatment of a whistleblower. I ask Ms O'Connor to explain to us what exactly is happening within the HSE in respect of the treatment of that whistleblower and who is responsible for what she referred to as an investigation.

Ms Anne O'Connor

There is a review. Regarding the complaints that have been raised by the whistleblower in respect of his treatment, that review has been undertaken. We are working with the local services nationally in terms of community services with the local CHO-----

Who is carrying out that review?

Ms Anne O'Connor

The national director of community operations has commissioned an initial review of what has been stated, not least the employment history and the concerns that have been raised by the whistleblower in respect of his treatment.

Who is actually carrying out the review?

Ms Anne O'Connor

Jackie Nix is an assistant national director of HR who has reviewed some of the files that exist. As I said earlier, the CEO has also written to Dr. Sharma.

Ms O'Connor referred to a person who is a staff member in the HR department of the HSE.

Ms Anne O'Connor

This is the initial review. In respect of any review we do, we do a preliminary screening of the concerns raised to determine how we might proceed from there. That step has happened.

Does Ms O'Connor really think it is acceptable that there is an internal review about the treatment of a whistleblower? Does she not see a difficulty in the lack of transparency there?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I appreciate that it appears we are being deliberately awkward. That is not my intention. However, the reality is that we are looking at a range of correspondences and we are examining the complaints or issues raised in respect of the whistleblower currently. For any review, be it a protected disclosure or any other type of review, the onus is on us in the first instance to carry out a preliminary review to determine what the appropriate next course of action might be. That is under way.

As public representatives concerned about a lack of transparency and accountability within the HSE, when are we going to learn exactly what happened to the whistleblower in this situation?

Ms Anne O'Connor

We are currently in a process as regards the concerns that have been raised by this individual. That is under way so I cannot comment any more than that. There is a process. I accept the Deputy's point about independence. The person who did that preliminary screening has no previous knowledge of this matter. It is also important to note that the whistleblower in question was not an employee of the HSE so in terms of actually looking at the file, the person who is internally doing the preliminary screening to determine what the appropriate next steps might be is independent.

What is at issue here is the treatment of a whistleblower by a person or persons within the HSE. It is not appropriate for that review to be carried out internally.

Is that review complete or when is it likely to be completed?

Ms Anne O'Connor

An initial review on the employment of the individual is complete. It is now being considered in terms of what the next steps will be.

Who is considering it?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I have seen it along with the national director of HR.

At CEO level in the HSE, is any action being taken?

Ms Anne O'Connor

The CEO has written to Dr. Sharma and has received a response, I understand. It is also important to note that the CEO has written to Dr. Sharma to thank him. Nobody would dispute the great service that Dr. Sharma has done in raising the concerns that led to this whole review.

Yes. Okay. We hear about apologies and about people being thanked but we never find out who was responsible for causing this situation to occur and what action was taken on foot of the concerns raised by the whistleblower. That is what we need to hear. It is not that something went wrong because things go wrong all the time, it is how people responded to things going wrong.

What are the accountability systems within the HSE either at administrative or clinical level? They are not clear to me at all this morning.

Ms Anne O'Connor

On accountability in the structure, I will start at the top end. It is the CEO and the executive management team. I am the chief operations officer reporting to the CEO. I have national directors reporting to me, including a national director for community operations. There are nine chief officers responsible for the nine community health areas who report to that national director for community operations. Each chief officer, as Mr. Fitzgerald has said, has the head of service for each of the care groups reporting to them.

Where is the legal accountability there?

Ms Anne O'Connor

The Health Acts. The accountability under the Health Act comes from the CEO delegated down through that operational line that I just set out.

How far is that delegated down?

Ms Anne O'Connor

It is delegated down to the chief officer and to the heads of service. I would look to Mr. Fitzgerald in terms of specifics.

Does that include removal from employment in situations where an individual is found not to have performed adequately?

Ms Anne O'Connor

It would be line with any HR issue. We have different types of issues. When there is a clinical practice issue, it generally goes to the regulating body. Where we have what is perceived to be an issue of somebody not doing his or her job, from a HR perspective we have processes in place that allow us to address performance. We have a process in the HSE around performance but equally, where concerns are raised around someone's performance there are a number of HR actions available to us, which ultimately include the removal of somebody from his or her post if that is what it comes to. However, that is not a straightforward thing, as the Deputy will be aware.

Ms O'Connor will also be aware that Sláintecare recommends -----

Ms Anne O'Connor

Better accountability.

----- legislation for accountability.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I do not think that any of us argue with that.

May I ask one last question, Chair?

The Deputy may go ahead.

It is a straightforward question. The Maskey review tells us that in 2020 the doctor at the centre of this was recommended for other jobs even though there were concerns about him. Is that the case? Who would have recommended that doctor for other jobs?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will have to look to Dr. Young to respond in this regard.

Dr. Maura Young

I think what the Maskey review was responding to was that in June 2020, the non-consultant hospital doctor, NCHD, wanted to leave his HSE employment. He no longer wanted to do on-call at night work. He joined a locum agency. He got a reference from the then executive clinical director, ECD, at that time.

We will go next to Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.

I also want to welcome the people from the HSE. We all agree that this has been a terrible neglect or hurt of many children in south Kerry. We all know that as boys and girls grow into men and women and their bodies change physically, many have mental health problems. I regret what seems to have been happening in many instances, which I believe was going on beyond the numbers we have heard about since the report came out. It seems as though what happened was that drugs were pumped into these lovely children, which greatly changed their personalities. It slowed them down and could have had the effect of increasing their weight. Their personalities totally change and they stop smiling. I have seen it over the years. It has happened in greater numbers in the past five years in south Kerry. It is not acceptable. We need more psychologists to talk to these young people. They need to get time, rather than being given injections and being sent out the door.

There is a question of compensation for all the children affected. I do not think they can ever be adequately compensated for what has been done to their lives over so many years. It is terrible. What will happen from today onwards? Children are developing mental health issues, if that is the term, and they have to be seen to today by psychiatrists. I still worry and am not satisfied that we will have a system in place where someone is looking over the shoulder of the person who is meting out the medication or whatever it is to ensure that these people get back on track. There must be some control. To think that someone was doing that work for four or five whole years and let so many people down. The parents and the children did nothing at all wrong. On whose instructions did this locum doctor think he was doing right? There should have been a review of what he was doing on a weekly basis, if not even daily. People only get one chance on this earth. If they fail and go down on themselves it is very hard to bring them back up. We have to ensure that some better structures are put in place. In addition to psychiatrists, should we also have more psychologists? Mental health issues can be helped by talking to people. That is what psychologists do. Do we have enough of those and will there be enough of them?

From today on, how will we deal better with this than we have done? I cannot understand why we cannot get a senior consultant. But even then, I do not think one consultant is enough. I heard Ms O'Connor say that there should be a team but we have to ensure that there is. While we hear of massive sums being allocated to the Department of Health in the budget each year, it does not manifest itself in the treatment of mental health, or at least down in Kerry anyway; let every person who is representing other counties talk about their own counties.

The structures by which this went on for five years are totally wrong.

I believe, and have believed since my father's time, that when the regional health boards were in place, there was more interaction with doctors and consultants. If there was a local issue, like this one, in community care or primary care, it was discussed around the table and sorted out. There does not seem to be the accountability that is needed. What assurances can the witnesses give that from here on, we will have a proper service to deal with these mental health issues that develop in young people? I ask that they ensure, without delay, that proper compensation is made available to these people whose lives have been totally ruined.

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will give a general view and Mr. Fitzgerald can come in then. We are fully committed to implementing the recommendations in this report. We accept them in full and will do everything we can to ensure that we develop a better service for everybody, particularly the people in south Kerry. From our perspective, there are many considerations with regard to how we deliver our services on foot of this and the three pieces of work we are embarking on will help inform our thinking further. The Deputy asked for assurances that we will have the service we all wish for. While we will do everything we can on that, there is a very real challenge with workforce availability at this time. There are growing numbers of people and doctors in training. There are more CAMHS-qualified consultants coming out this year than ever and we are investing in more nursing and so on. There is a finite resource available and our challenge is in making the best use of the resource available to us as we seek to develop our services and implement Sharing the Vision, which is the policy to which we are all working. I will ask Mr. Fitzgerald to come in specifically on Kerry.

Mr. Michael Fitzgerald

I share the Deputy's concerns. It has been a real concern since this started to unfold and throughout the look-back process. I have been chairing those meetings weekly. Last Friday, I met with a group representing the families. It was a hugely constructive meeting from my perspective. I hope it was of support and benefit to them. It is one of many and we will continue to work with them on this.

To answer the Deputy's direct question on the children affected who need further supports, we will be setting up a clinical support liaison team who will work with individual families and the individuals themselves, if they wish to do so. I will be writing to the families involved about that. This team will work with them as key workers to support them and advocate on their behalf with regard to services and will ensure, where it is at all possible, that we provide them with those services in a timely manner. That is an important piece and I made that commitment to the representative group we met last Friday. I hope to write to the families on it later this week.

The Deputy also raised the oversight regarding what happened and why it went on for so long. Dr. Maskey's report looks at that in great detail. We heard earlier that the supervision of the NCHD was more for the NCHD to take up rather than it being a necessity for the person to do so. That was a key issue and there are huge learnings in that for all services. The children concerned will continue to be our focus. They will continue to be at the centre of this and we will continue to work with them through the clinical support team, which will be place from Monday next. That will ensure we can match them to the right services and, where at all possible, provide those services to them.

To follow on from those questions, we heard about the challenges of getting expertise for these multidisciplinary teams. We know from previous submissions and witnesses that there are real challenges in rural areas and areas of high deprivation for many of these CAMHS teams. The big question that people at home are asking is whether we can be assured that the failures and challenges that happened in the south Kerry area will pop up in other places. That is one of the questions people will be asking. Will we have similar problems, such as lack of full teams in some cases, or teams that are broken and not really delivering for those children? Do we have to wait for other people or whistleblowers to come forward in respect of other areas? Is it likely that there will be similar challenges in other areas?

Ms Anne O'Connor

We definitely have challenges in our teams regarding recruitment in some areas. That is a known challenge. I referred to the three pieces of work that we are undertaking but we have not touched much on the third prong, which is the more qualitative piece of engaging with service users, families and staff to try to get in under what their experience is. Ultimately, that is what is really important here. It is a matter of people's experience of our services and whether they feel the services are having a positive impact on their health. That piece of work will be very informative but the hard edge will be the audit piece in throwing up any issues in all our teams. I would love to say that I do not think we have these problems in other areas but in the absence of some of that hard evidence I cannot be sure and the audits will give us that. Those three pieces of work on which we are embarking will give us the assurance that we cannot definitively have here today. We have excellent services and some very committed and hardworking staff. We have a very highly qualified workforce in our mental health services and it is important for them that we have this assurance because people turning up today or tomorrow to mental health services need to know they are getting a service that is really going to make a difference to their lives. Some of those people have been waiting some time for that service. We are all hugely invested in getting this right. That assurance will come definitively through the processes that we are about to undertake.

That is important. One recommendation in the report is that the clinical director for CAMHS should make sure that all junior doctors meet the legal requirement to show they are competent. Why was it necessary to put this in the report? Was this not the case before? Why else would the report make such a recommendation? Did we have untrained doctors working in the service?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I will have to check with Dr. Young on the specifics of that recommendation.

Dr. Maura Young

That recommendation was in response to the fact that a local consultant had highlighted that the junior doctor was not meeting their legal requirement to be involved in a professional competence scheme. That is why it was recommended that all junior doctors or NCHDs must be enrolled within a professional competence scheme and that it should then be checked and clarified by their line manager, the clinical director.

It has been suggested by some parents that one tired doctor should not excuse the mistreatment of 227 children, as was outlined clearly in the report. The HSE report states that this was due to lack of knowledge about the best way to do things. Again, the question that must be asked is how such a doctor, with this lack of knowledge, can be placed in the role. Is there not a requirement for a paediatric specialist to prescribe medication to children?

Ms Anne O'Connor

There are a couple of issues there. First, we should absolutely have people who are qualified for the role, and that applies to anybody undertaking a role. CAMHS is a very specialist service.

In terms of assuring the skills and experience that are relevant to the role, we absolutely have to do that.

This report also throws up for us the following consideration. This is a very difficult one for us and a very difficult one for all of the committee members as well. I refer to the notion that any service is better than no service. We often stretch our services to cover where we do not have the right skills set. Many efforts have been made in this area to recruit. In this case, we have certainly worked on the basis of trying to keep a service going because we felt at the time that was more important than anything. When we look at what happened here, we have to ask ourselves whether having any service is better than having no service and the conclusion in this case is that it probably was not for some of these people. This challenges us in terms of how we configure and deliver our services. Unfortunately, that is not a simple question to answer.

It is important they know what they are doing, particularly in the case of a doctor.

Is the system that is used to check the prescribing of medications the same system that is used State-wide in CAMHS? How does the system cope? We have mentioned the levels of under-staffing commonly experienced in CAMHS. I return to my concern that it is not only a challenge for this area. When there is no medical lead, for instance, how will the system manage that?

Ms Anne O'Connor

I might ask Dr. Burke to address the CAMHS piece.

Dr. Amanda Burke

This is a very particular situation and it is regrettable what happened here. I want to reassure people that in the vast majority of teams there is robust governance around prescription of medication. It is not arbitrary whether somebody can go to supervision or not. In fact, if somebody is on a training scheme, he or she will not be signed off as a competent doctor unless there is documentary evidence of weekly supervision from a consultant colleague.

Standard practice would be that an non-consultant hospital doctor would only prescribe under the supervision of a consultant and in consultation with a multidisciplinary team and that all cases would be discussed at multidisciplinary team. That gives an additional check in that you have other professionals discussing whether or not medication is appropriate.

To reassure people at home, medication is not prescribed lightly. It is prescribed in line with the evidence base and we look at all other options before we prescribe medication. This is a particular case. I am confident that in the vast majority of teams this is robust and it is done under a specialist's supervision.

We have robust cross-cover arrangements in some areas. In my own area, we have to do a cross-cover arrangement where we were unable to get a consultant but supervision is done on a weekly basis, both face to face and using e-mental health solutions.

As Ms O'Connor said, we may need to look at this across the areas. It is not popular because people feel as if their service is being denuded but actually what we are doing is providing a safer service under consultant specialist supervision.

I am not trying to undermine confidence in the services. There is vital work going on daily.

It is common sense that all staff were trained in risk and crisis management given the service CAMHS provide. The report states it is not a priority but I would have thought it would have been a priority at that time.

Anti-psychotic drugs were mentioned by some of the members. One of the recommendations of the report is that guidelines should be drawn up. What was the protocol for prescribing these powerful mood-altering drugs previously and were there any central guidelines that were not followed up? One of my colleagues here mentioned a particular case but I am sure there are others. Among these 227 children, there was a number of worries in relation to the drugs that they were prescribed. What is the protocol for prescribing these powerful drugs? What was it in the past? What changes now or are there any changes in relation to them?

Dr. Amanda Burke

Anti-psychotic medications are used in a variety of situations and it depends on the diagnosis in the particular instance. Consultants would look at standard practice. We would look at guidelines such as those of the National Institute of Clinical Excellence in terms of our prescribing practices. You would prescribe in line with that guidance, for example, doses specific to weight. You would monitor the physical parameters in terms of these.

There is clinical judgment though and this is why they are instituted by a clinical specialist. One has to, first of all, diagnose and say that this is appropriate as part of a care plan. This is rarely done in isolation by one person and usually done in a team approach.

The other question that was raised is the doctor in question was recommended for other posts in 2020. I suppose people will have difficulties in trying to understand that. That is new information that I was not aware of. I would have concerns about that.

I really appreciate the time and effort the witnesses have put into answering the questions here this morning. I particularly thank Dr. Young. I realise Dr. Young is out sick but she took the time to come in and answer the questions from committee members here this morning.

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions this morning. We have got some sort of sense of where things are at in south Kerry CAMHS. I appreciate witnesses' candid answers where they could give them.

Sin é deireadh gnó an lae. Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe a bhí i láthair inniu. Buailfidh an coiste le chéile do sheisiún poiblí Dé Céadaoin seo chugainn, 9 Márta 2022, ar 9.30 a.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.27 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9 March 2022.
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