Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Wednesday, 20 Apr 2005

Travers Report: Presentations.

I welcome the Ministers of State, Deputies Callely and O'Malley, who will discuss the Report on Certain Issues relating to Management and Administration in the Department of Health and Children associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters. Dr Muirís McCarthy from the Institute of Public Administration who will carry out a report for the joint committee also joins us today.

The Ministers of State will speak briefly on the main findings of the Travers report. Members may then ask questions. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, to open proceedings.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the Joint Committee on Health and Children on the Travers report. Members can be assured of my full co-operation.

I served as one of three Ministers of State at the Department of Health and Children under the then Minister, Deputy Martin, who I understand will attend the joint committee tomorrow. I was appointed in June 2002 as Minister of State with responsibility for services for older people and reappointed as Minister of State at the Department in Transport in September 2004.

Mr. John Travers should be commended for the time in which he delivered his report and the detail contained therein. It clearly outlines the delay of almost 30 years from the initial legal concerns which persisted within the Department. Mr. Travers found this delay was due to long-term systemic corporate failure, principally of public administration, within the Department over three decades.

Following the advice of the Attorney General on 8 December 2004, the legal basis was approved by the Oireachtas with the passage of appropriate legislation. Since obtaining the Attorney General's advice and the publication of the Travers report, the Government recognises that a mistake was made for more than 28 years with regard to the lack of a legal basis for such charges. It is universally accepted that they are reasonable and should be made but they were not made on a sound legal basis in the past. The Health (Amendment) Act 2005 corrects this position.

My first notice of the concern of the chief executive officers regarding long-stay charges was at the MAC-CEO meeting at the Gresham Hotel on 16 December 2003. The issue of long-stay charges was one of seven items for brief mention on the agenda that day and Mr. Travers found that it did not receive much time. The CEO of the South Eastern Health Board who I believe was before the joint committee yesterday drew the group's attention to the fact that the Ombudsman had challenged the health board's interpretation of charges for long-stay care. Departmental officials stated the first step would be to get a definitive legal assessment. I agreed with the decision to obtain the Attorney General's opinion as the issue could not be addressed until it was clearly defined. It was my understanding the Secretary General would also pursue the matter.

I indicated that I would mention the issue to the Taoiseach and the then Minister, as reported by Mr. Travers on page 44, paragraph 4.40, of his report. There appeared to be legal opinion on the basis of the charges and clear advice would have to be obtained from the Attorney General to clarify the issue.

Mr. Travers found no documentary evidence in the course of his examination that any memorandum or similar document had ever been prepared and submitted to me setting out the substance and nature of the operation, and legal and financial issues surrounding the application of the charges which are the subject of the report. I trust this is helpful. I thank the joint committee.

I am delighted to be here at the request of the joint committee. There is no need for repetition. My ministerial colleague, Deputy Callely, has outlined many of the past events.

My first briefing on this matter was also at the MAC-CEO meeting on 16 December 2003. On reading the brief for the meeting beforehand I realised matters were grave in terms of the legal, financial and political consequences. I was similarly delighted that a decision was taken quickly at the meeting to seek the advice of the Attorney General on the matter. There were two subsequent MAC-CEO meetings in February and October 2004, neither of which I attended because the practice at the time was that if the senior Minister did not attend, then neither did the Ministers of State. I have no problem in that regard and will answer any questions.

I received the minutes of the subsequent MAC-CEO meetings. It was very clear that an undertaking had been given by the Secretary General that legal advice would be sought from the Attorney General. In the minutes of the second meeting in October 2004 it was indicated various legal options were being considered. I presumed, therefore, that the matter was progressing in a satisfactory manner. To get legal advice on any matter takes quite an amount of time. Legal briefs had to be prepared and the Attorney General would have had to spend time on a matter as complex as this which had continued for approximately 28 years. That was my point of view.

Hindsight is a great advantage and the report provides a very detailed exposé. I congratulate Mr. Travers for his report on the events which took place in the Department concerning this matter. Unfortunately, errors of judgment were made. Hindsight is a great thing. I was appointed in June 2002 and in my experience, the people in the Department from the Secretary General down were very competent and dedicated. While the Department of Health and Children has always been an extremely busy Department, this was particularly true in 2004, given the significant health reforms being carried out. While I do not offer that as an excuse, we need to bear in mind the amount of activity in the Department.

I had an excellent working relationship with the Secretary General. I always got on very well with him. I found him an extremely competent and efficient civil servant. I had a very cordial relationship with him at all times. We had a very good professional relationship. I never had any problem with him. I found him efficient and effective. As John Travers stated, some of the matters are inexplicable. They are inexplicable to me as I am sure they will be to members of the committee as to what happened. I am here to answer any questions and do not want to take up any undue time. I will answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Before opening matters to the floor, I remind members that we have approximately 2.5 hours, including a small coffee break. Everybody will have an opportunity to speak and ask questions. At recent meetings some members expressed frustration that we did not get around to them. In reality we get around to everybody. We will take members in the following order: Deputies Twomey, McManus, Gormley and Neville, and Senator Feeney.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, to the meeting. I believe this is his first opportunity to speak publicly on the Travers report. The purpose of these committee meetings is to find out what went wrong in the past and to make sure it does not happen in the future.

The Minister of State might not have got the transcripts of our recent discussions during which we considered the role of the administrative arm of the Department of Health and Children, including civil and public servants like Mr. Pat McLoughlin from the former South Eastern Health Board and the people who work with him. In some respects those people have taken a hammering regarding the issues that were highlighted in the Travers report as having gone wrong. Mr. Travers has laid responsibility totally at their door.

However, we are also looking at the executive with political responsibility for the Department of Health and Children. This includes the Minister, Ministers of State and advisers. Although this was a huge issue, the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, as did the former Minister, Deputy Martin, tried to suggest that it was just an item for brief discussion. However, it was an issue that involved discrimination against elderly patients and potentially breached the Constitution. It would inflict a huge burden on the taxpayer. From what we can gather from our deliberations so far it was only down for brief discussion at the MAC meeting because it had been discussed in detail prior to the MAC meeting. At least four or five meetings involving health board officials and civil servants had taken place before this meeting.

Who does the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, feel has overall responsibility for such an issue in a Department? The executive is the most important part. Some people would feel the Minister has overall responsibility. Others would feel it is the Minister of State with special responsibility in this area. The former Minister, Deputy Martin, seemed to indicate that the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, had overall responsibility for this issue. I would like the Minister of State to explain what he felt were his responsibilities.

The MAC meeting was quite important for the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, because he received a briefing on the matter before entering the meeting. He should not have first heard about this issue at the meeting. He should have read the briefing notes he received before the meeting. It is totally wrong to try to blame civil servants for this issue. If the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, did not read the documents given to him, how did he expect to be informed on an issue that was going to cost the Department €100 million per year? Believing it was sufficient for him to whisper into the Taoiseach's ear what was going on does not seem to indicate he took responsibility for what he felt was his role in the Department.

While an opinion was required from the Attorney General, the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, left the matter in the hands of the administrative arm of the Department of Health and Children. He had no checks and balances in place for him to follow up the matter.

Even prior to the MAC meeting, I am surprised the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, was not aware of what was a fundamental issue in his Department. Yesterday, Mr. Pat McLoughlin pointed out that at least five meetings on this issue took place in 2003. He raised this issue at the MAC meeting in February 2003. He raised it again at a bilateral meeting with the Department in March 2003. Another meeting took place in May 2003 and we know that a teleconference involving all the CEOs of the health boards took place in June 2003.

The 2001 legislation had only just been passed and barely implemented when the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, was appointed to the Department. Referring back to 1976 only confuses the issue and is a red herring. Mr. Travers admits that the 2001 legislation brought the issue to the fore. Extending medical cards to all the over 70s placed a statutory obligation on health boards to give free nursing home care to everybody. Prior to that, this took place at the discretion of health board CEOs. This represented a fundamental change, which is where the constitutional issue comes into play.

It is not accurate to say that the maladministration was totally at the hands of civil servants. While the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, might get the chance to change this when he speaks, the impression so far is that Ministers and Ministers of State had a very hands-off approach in the Department. Practically everything was left to the civil servants who did the bulk of the work in the Department. The Ministers and Ministers of State do not seem to have any great function within the Department as shown by how this issue was handled. This was not an item for brief discussion; it was a substantial item from the point of view of the health boards, which the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, totally ignored.

Rather than confusing matters we will have the Minister of State respond to each questioner individually.

I thank Deputy Twomey for his questions. I will try to be as helpful as possible to clear up what I would perceive is not a clear picture. The Deputy stated that the issue was not an item for brief discussion. I draw his attention to the agenda of the meeting.

It was the second item on the agenda.

I draw the Deputy's attention to the agenda proper, which is in two parts. Part 1 refers to service plans and the reform programme, and goes into an array of matters relating thereto along with the minutes of the previous meeting. Part 2, item 4, clearly states "items for brief mention" and lists five items for brief mention, the fourth being "long stay charges over 70". While the Deputy is of the opinion that it was not an item for brief discussion, I would like him to understand the format of the agenda and the manner in which it was presented.

The Deputy asked a good question about the role of Ministers and Ministers of State in the Department. My role was in the area of services for older people. I took the opportunity to ask for a copy of some parliamentary questions I answered in 2004. These indicate exactly my area of responsibility and the areas in which I was making some inroads and changes, enhancing and improving the delivery of services for older people. I draw the Deputy's attention to one of the fundamental questions mentioned by Mr. Travers. Before doing so I will give the Deputy a flavour of some of the questions I answered. Rather than go into the names of the individuals who asked the questions, they sought to ask the Minister if he would pay the maximum subvention in the case of a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny, and if this person would be transferred from such a home to another home.

My response was that the Deputy would be aware the provision of health services in the Kilkenny area was a matter for the then South Eastern Health Board and my Department had, therefore, asked the chief executive officer of the health board to investigate the matter raised by the Deputy and reply directly to him as a matter of urgency.

That was not the Minister of State's responsibility so he is obviously saying he bears no responsibility.

That matter was the responsibility of the chief executive officer of the health board.

It was not the Minister of State's responsibility. I am trying to get an idea of what the Minister of State was responsible for.

I want to give an idea of the areas for which I was responsible. A number of the parliamentary questions referred to subvention, individuals and the level of care being provided in nursing homes. One question to which I alluded earlier, and which I should bring to the Deputy's attention, is one to which Mr. Travers refers. A question from Deputy Shortall sought to ask the Minister for Health and Children, further to Parliamentary Question No. 132 of 5 May 2004, the reason for the delay in replying to the Deputy and if he will give a detailed reply. The Minister, Deputy Martin, took the question because the substantive question No. 132 on 5 May 2004 was as follows:

To ask the Minister for Health and Children the circumstances in which medical card holders may be charged for stays in long-term care where they are receiving treatment, the way his reply to Parliamentary Question No. 402 of 3 February 2004, and in particular paragraph 2 of that reply, tallies with the case of a person (details supplied) who was charged by the hospital on the basis that it was his Department's advice that it is at the discretion of the hospital to do so; if he will ascertain under what statutory instrument this charge is being applied by the hospital; if he will ascertain if the hospital is correct in its policy and if he will make a statement on the matter.

The reply was given in detail by the Minister and perhaps I will give the committee an idea of the view of the Department at the time. It read:

As regards people availing of public long-stay care, charges can be made under two regulations. They can be made under the Health (Charges for In-patient Services) Regulations of 1976, as amended, by the Health (Charges for In-Patient Services) (Amendment) Regulations 1987. These regulations enable charges to be made towards the cost of providing inpatient services for persons with income who have been in receipt of such services for more than 30 days or for periods totalling more than 30 days——

I am sorry to interrupt, but our time is short. The quality of replies to parliamentary questions has been questioned by a number of Members. That reply is an indication of this. To go back over the deliberations of this committee, Mr. Travers indicated that when he went into the Department of Health and Children the issue in regard to illegal nursing home charges was well known since 2001. Mr. Pat McLoughlin indicated that the issue in regard to the illegality of nursing home charges has been well known by the health boards, especially senior officials in the health boards, since mid-2002. Some of the replies we get to parliamentary questions do not give us much information. On what was happening in the Department and what were the Minister of State's responsibilities, he does not seem to understand what was going on. He appears to be saying that his role in that Department or his role in regard to this issue was no different from that of the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Malley, recognised this was a significant issue and it is stated in the report that he saw its legal, financial and political implications. The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, is saying he had no overall responsibility for the issue. We are trying to find out who in the Executive was responsible for these issues relating to care of the elderly.

I was alluding to the fact that the parliamentary questions were responded to by the Minister, Deputy Martin, in his area of responsibility.

Is the Minister of State saying the Minister, Deputy Martin, was responsible for this?

Does that mean it had nothing to do with the Minister of State?

To answer the question, one of the people on that side has experience as a Minister of State and would know the manner in which Departments are run. Clearly there are areas of responsibility. This area, in regard to finance and legislation, was a matter for the Minister, Deputy Martin. Clearly that is the manner in which parliamentary questions were also answered, indicating that it was his area of responsibility.

May I answer another of the Deputy's questions about the CEOs in the health boards and about Department officials and Mr. McLoughlin's comments yesterday? Unfortunately, I had a busy schedule yesterday so I have not seen the transcripts. Someone said to me that Mr. McLoughlin's bottom line was that he had many discussions with Department officials and with his colleague CEOs on the issue of charges but he never once raised it with a Minister or a Minister of State. Correct me if I am wrong. I was not here yesterday and perhaps I have been informed incorrectly.

The Minister of State is correct, that is what Mr. McLoughlin said, but he indicated that the issue seemed to have been well known within the administrative arm of the Department of Health and Children for at least three years. What we are trying to work out here is why the executive arm of the Department of Health and Children, the Ministers and their advisers, did not seem to be aware of this issue at any stage.

To answer the question as best I can now that we have set the parameters, I can only be aware of something if it is brought to my attention.

The concern by the CEOs regarding long-stay charges was, as I said in my opening comment, first brought to my notice at the MAC CEO meeting which took place in the Gresham Hotel on 16 December. I think most people in a position similar to mine or in an Opposition position would, if they saw something of this nature, have it addressed. I think I might be acknowledged as a person who is relatively hardworking and tries to catch whatever balls are out there. If I was able to identify this at any time I would have done so and I would have addressed it. My understanding is that a number of Department officials were aware of concerns expressed by CEOs. As we read in theTravers report, the Department officials felt that they had a defensible line but they were concerned in regard to testing it in court and that is why there was a withdrawal on agreements in regard to charges in certain cases. The issue rested between Department officials and CEOs and the man who was seemingly concerned about the issue, as he stated yesterday, raised the issue only with Departmental officials. The first time I had knowledge of the concern was at that meeting. The meeting clearly indicated that — I think I have mentioned it — when the CEO of the South Eastern Health Board brought to the attention of the group that the Ombudsman challenged the health board's interpretation on charges, the Department officials stated that if we were to travel on this issue we would have to get a definitive legal assessment as a first step. My understanding would be that the Department officials were somewhat satisfied that their position——

The Minister of State keeps omitting the fact that there are two issues about this that are very much a responsibility of the Minister, whether the Minister of State feels he had overall responsibility or not. The Minister of State received a briefing note on it which had an eight page summary and an internal South Eastern Health Board document which indicated quite clearly the illegality of these charges. That is the first point. As the Minister of State did not read it, in some respect that is a fall down on behalf of the Executive and a personal fall down by the Minister of State. It was stated at that MAC meeting that urgent legislation was required. That was one of the recommendations. There are only three lines in it. Did the Minister of State consider it necessary to inquire further? When someone came in here before Christmas, and said urgent legislation was required to fix the matter, it created a huge amount of discussion and debate. I find it strange that no remark was made on it and that everyone went about their business, broke up for Christmas and forgot all about it. The Minister of State appears to be indicating that he does not feel it was his responsibility anyway. There was no need, therefore, to follow it up. Am I right in that respect?

No. There would be collective responsibility as a Minister in the Department but a decision was taken at the meeting and that decision was to get a definitive legal assessment, as a first step. Having obtained that one would presume we would then travel whatever——

Did the Minister of State fully inform himself about the issue when it came up at the meeting? Since he had not read his briefing note, did he ask any questions of anybody present at the meeting or request some background as to what was going on, particularly as someone was requesting urgent legislation on the issue?

Whatever informal discussions I may have had with some of my Department officials, the line that would have been mentioned to me is the varying advice in respect of eligibility versus entitlement. This was the first opportunity where one got a flavour of the concern that was expressed and as Mr. Travers stated in his report, the view of the Department officials regarding the legal status of the charge was that they had a defensible line on it.

I refer back to the point that the view of the learned people in the room who had the experience, the CEOs and the Department officials, whose views I would acknowledge in that they had their finger on the pulse, so to speak, and knew what they were talking about, was that we should get definitive legal assessment as a first step and, having obtained that, a standalone Bill may be necessary to address the situation. I presume the Deputy would accept that if the majority view of the membership of the MAC-CEO group was that a definitive legal opinion should be obtained as a first step, I did not want to disagree with that. I agreed with that approach with a view to progressing the matter.

I will conclude with this question——

Other speakers are indicating their wish to contribute.

There appears to have been a lack of leadership in the Department. Does the Minister of State believe anyone should resign from the Executive in regard to——

We cannot deal with that yet, Deputy. I call Deputy McManus.

I have a number of questions, the first of which is to the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley. Mr. Travers presumed there were regular meetings between the Ministers of State and the Minister. Could the Minister of State describe those regular meetings or did they happen?

Mr. Travers said he presumed but that he did not ask the question. I believe that is what he said in the report.

He did not say it in the report; I think he said it to us here.

Okay. From my understanding, working with the Minister, Deputy Martin, and the three Ministers of State, Deputies Callely, Brian Lenihan and myself, formal meetings would be called very occasionally when the Minister wished to discuss a specific item with the three Ministers of State.

Does the Minister of State mean once a year? How long has he been with the Department?

Since June 2002.

How often were meetings held during his time in the Department?

Will the Deputy let me finish the answer to the question? I will outline the way the Minister, Deputy Martin, worked with me and I presume with the other Ministers of State. All of us have different responsibilities. My responsibilities were disability services——

I do not want the Minister of State to go into detail.

I am trying to——

I asked the Minister of State how often, since he took up office——

I am answering the question.

That is all I am asking. I am not asking about what the Minister of State said. I want to know how often he meets with other Ministers.

There were very few formal meetings with the three——

Was it one or——

Off the top of my head I would say there were three or four.

Were they——

Let me finish the——

No, I am sorry. The Minister of State does not understand how this is being done.

I do understand.

I asked the Minister of State a very specific question.

Excuse me, do not——

I am answering the specific question.

I would like specific answers. That is all I am looking for and time is very limited.

We have two full hours. We can recall the Minister of State but let us take the steam out of the situation. Deputy McManus has asked a direct question. I ask the Minister of State to respond to that question.

The direct answer to the Deputy's question is that off the top of my head there would have been three or four meetings——

Were they recorded?

——with the three Ministers of State but I would have had several meetings with the Minister, Deputy Martin, if he wished to discuss anything in particular with me. I presume he would have had the same meetings with the other Ministers of State, Deputies Callely and Brian Lenihan.

Was a record taken of the meetings of all the Ministers?

Not to my knowledge. I do not believe so. They would have been specific meetings about specific items.

There would have been no record.

My understanding is that there would not have been a record. Officials would have been present at some of the meetings but whether minutes or notes were taken, I do not know. I did not need to take notes because we would have been discussing one or two items, and that would have been the situation.

Does the Minister of State recall if this issue ever came up at any of those meetings?

Not at all. No, it did not.

The Minister of State understood the gravity of what was on the table in terms of the briefing he read but he did not attend any of the further MAC meetings. Did he ever pursue this matter with any official? A year later he still had not got the Attorney General's response. During all that time did he never once ask anybody about the legal position, since it had a relevance to his area of responsibility?

On the inference that I did not attend any further MAC meetings, I explained that in my initial comments.

He did. It is not an inference; it is a fact. Perhaps the Minister of State could be a little less defensive.

I am not being defensive. There was not a practice of Ministers of State——

I know that.

——attending at meetings.

That is the point I am making. Since the Minister of State had not attended the MAC meetings, did he ask any of the officials at any point——

No, I did not but——

Will the Deputy let me finish? The fact that I did not attend the meetings did not mean that I did not get minutes of the meetings.

I know that.

I would have got minutes of the meetings at the time. My presumption from the minutes of both of those meetings was that the matter was referred to. In the February meeting it was said that the matter had gone to the Attorney General. With regard to the October meeting, different phraseology was used but the impression was certainly given that different legal opinions were being examined by the Department.

Did it not strike the Minister of State to ask the Attorney General himself? He was a Minister in Government.

The answer to the question is that I did not.

Okay. Since the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, had a lead part in the Eastern Regional Health Authority — I believe he was chair of that authority——

That is correct.

——presumably he had some familiarity with this issue before he became a Minister.

In what fashion is the Deputy using the word "familiarity"?

The Ombudsman's report had been published. The Minister of State had a responsibility as the chair of the Eastern Regional Health Authority for services for older people before he became a Minister. Nursing home charges were a major issue. Did he not have any experience or knowledge of that issue?

Of course I did, as a public representative, as a member and as chairman of the ERHA and, prior to the ERHA, the NAHB and the EHB.

Did he ask his CEO about it at any stage?

About the issue of the illegality of a charge?

Yes, and also the over 70s scheme affecting the medical card arrangements that had been used to get over the problem of charges.

Two issues arise in that regard. Regarding my knowledge as a public representative, a member of the board and chair of whatever board — I was also chair of the EHB — whenever the issue of long-stay charges came up for discussion, the basis of the discussion would be similar to the response given to the question that arose as late as May and June of 2004, which was that they can be made under the regulations of 1976, 1977 and so on.

I am asking about the time the Minister of State was on the health board. Presumably the CEO had been informed, as had all CEOs. They had meetings about the issue. Did the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, never, at any point, ask the CEO for his advice on an issue, which was of interest to him as a public representative, particularly as chairman of the authority?

To be helpful, could Deputy McManus indicate to me what type of question I would ask?

He could have asked the CEO if he had any view on whether the issue of illegality of charges was sustainable. Did he never discuss it with the CEO?

How would I have known prior to the Travers report and the Supreme Court ruling, unless Deputy McManus knew?

No. It was an issue which the Ombudsman raised. It was discussed in public quite frequently.

Yes. The Ombudsman raised it but not in the context of it being illegal. The Ombudsman raised concerns about the charges. In fairness to the Ombudsman's report, and I think Mr. Travers refers to it, he covered quite a great deal of ground and much of it was addressed. The issue relating to the concern that was expressed regarding the charges was also addressed. I will not quote exactly what it says, but it was to the effect that the Department undertook to carry out the review and that was meant to have commenced.

I revert to Deputy McManus's point because she might be able to help me on this, as she was present yesterday, I presume. As it happens, the CEO who was here yesterday, Mr. McLoughlin, was CEO when I was chairman of the Eastern Health Board, if not the Eastern Regional Health Authority. Yesterday, Mr. McLoughlin clearly indicated, when he was asked by members if he had ever raised it with——

No. I am not asking that. I am asking if the Minister of State ever asked the CEO, but he clearly did not.

The answer to the Deputy's question is "No", but I think——

I just wanted a "Yes" or "No" because we are under a time constraint.

In fairness, Chairman, for the record, Deputy McManus is asking the question in the knowledge that yesterday the CEO indicated that he never said it to a board member or chairman.

No, I am sorry, I am talking about the CEO of the Eastern Regional Health Authority. Did the Minister of State ever ask him? That is all I ask. Does the Minister of State have an adviser?

Has he nobody to assist him who is politically appointed?

Does he have any political appointee in his Department?

I do not have an adviser. Deputy McManus was in Government as a Minister of State, and I do not know whether she had an adviser.

Yes, I had an adviser.

I had a political appointee who was my adviser. Does the Minister of State have a political appointee in his Department?

I do not have an appointed adviser. The Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, made some changes relating to the appointment of advisers. I have the normal departmental staff, including a private secretary, constituency office staff and private office staff. The other person one has is a personal assistant.

The Minister of State has a personal assistant.

I have a personal assistant——

A political appointment.

——for my constituency work, but I do not have an adviser.

The Minister of State has a political appointee——

That is correct.

——who is a personal assistant. Is it the case that the personal assistant would not normally have been involved in assisting the Minister of State in terms of reading briefings?

He did not read the briefing. Will the Minister of State indicate why he did not read the briefing of the MAC meeting in December?

I think Mr. Travers adequately covers that point in so far as the briefing came by e-mail and it came late in the afternoon prior to the meeting the next day. As far as I recall, I was not in the office and did not receive the briefing. That is why I was not able to read it.

Does the Minister of State have any devolved powers?

Does the Deputy mean while I was in the Department of Health and Children?

What were they?

They were mainly in the area of subventions.

Does the Minister of State mean nursing home subventions?

The Minister of State had devolved statutory powers.

I see. Looking back, does the Minister of State not now consider that this was something that would have been central in terms of his responsibilities since, under the statute, he had devolved powers relating to nursing home subventions? Anything affecting that was central and essential to his work.

Not quite. I had devolved powers in the area of subventions and the brief I received when appointed to the Department indicated the manner in which subventions were allocated to the boards, and the calculations on the subventions. The Deputy is right concerning the overall picture, but the other side of the equation goes back to the issue regarding the regulations of 1967 and 1987 and the CEO's interpretations of individual cases. That was the other side of the equation. It was not within my remit.

There are other areas in respect of which I am not too sure if I had devolved powers to work on. However, as Minister of State with responsibility for services for older people, I undertook my role with great enthusiasm and some people in this room would acknowledge that. During my period in that position, I pursued issues such as home subvention, which was never heard of before I was in the Department, and personal care packages, PCTs, and home supports.

I am not arguing that point. Did the Deputy ever meet the Ombudsman to discuss his report?

The Minister of State said he promised to mention it to the Taoiseach. Having read the report, I took it that he had undertaken to brief the Taoiseach, but that is just semantics. Even at that point, however, he was still referring to eligibility entitlement, which was not the point of the South Eastern Health Board's legal advice. The central point of that advice, surely, was that charges were being made illegally and that the over 70s scheme had created difficulties. What did the Minister of State say to the Taoiseach?

What I said to the Taoiseach was that there was a brief discussion on the issue of long-stay charges. Related to that was whether one is eligible or entitled, and that was part of the brief discussion when it was raised by the CEO of the South Eastern Health Board.

The point of the South Eastern Health Board's legal advice was that the charges were illegal, invalid and required legislation. Surely that was the essential point.

That was the essential point.

Did the Minister of State make that point to the Taoiseach?

No, because the balance of that position was that there was a defensible position as far as the Department officials were concerned. The regulations were in place to which I have already referred. There was mention of whether there was a need for a stand-alone Bill. When meeting the Taoiseach in the days that followed, I indicated that there was a brief discussion on the issue of long-stay charges. My line to the Taoiseach was that my Department officials had indicated that there was different advice on the issue and that it could not be addressed until it was defined. It was my understanding that the Department of Health and Children was seeking clarity and a definitive legal opinion.

We will move on.

I have one or two further questions. How brief was this discussion with the Taoiseach? It was only mentioned, was it not? Did the Taoiseach respond?

Not really. He noted with interest what I was saying.

The Minister of State did not talk to the Minister, Deputy Martin, because he had come to the meeting.

That is correct.

The Minister of State felt the Minister was being briefed.

The Minister of State was happy enough and comfortable with that idea, so he did not feel he had to do it.

My understanding is borne out in Mr. Kelly's statement in so far as he went down to the foyer to brief the Minister, Deputy Martin. As I indicated, because the Minister was coming to the meeting — I was aware that he later came to the meeting — he had been met by the Secretary General and his officials were at the meeting, it is a fair presumption to make that he would have been briefed.

We must move on.

The Minister of State was happy enough that the Minister, Deputy Martin, was briefed coming into that meeting and that because the advisers were at the meeting, people were sufficiently well informed to know the situation at that time as the Minister of State knew it.

The Minister of State did not have to do that.

I presume one would accept that the briefing was made. Most people in this room, like me, are fairly busy people. One wants to get to the bottom line. We should acknowledge and record that the bottom line at the meeting was that the first step necessary was to get a definitive legal assessment in order to address the issue. If, for example, I had met Deputy McManus after the meeting, she had asked me what happened and if there was anything of considerable significance which warranted attention, I would not go into every issue raised because she would raise her eyes to heaven. What the Deputy really wants is to cut to the chase. To cut to the chase, the only briefing anybody could give in regard to the meeting of 16 December is that a decision was taken to obtain a definitive legal opinion in order to take the first step to address the issue.

It will be interesting to hear what the former Minister, Deputy Martin, has to say about that. Deputy Callely was the Minister of State with responsibility for older people. He had devolved powers in respect of health board subventions. Presumably, it would have been his responsibility to have brought the legislation to resolve this issue through the House. Did Deputy Callely not consider it likely that he would have been the person responsible? I would have thought he would have been the obvious person to bring that legislation through the House. As a result, was Deputy Callely not concerned that a year later, there was still no sign of the Attorney General's legal advice? Did he ever ask the Attorney General or his advisers or officials why nothing had come back?

Deputy McManus has asked a number of interesting question. Around that time, the O'Shea report on the financing of long-stay accommodation was produced. I thought I would be involved in that but it was matter for the former Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, and the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. Again, I think that clearly indicates who was responsible for the various areas. I was not responsible for the finance aspect of the long-stay accommodation.

In regard to the subvention issue, I was responsible for the allocations to the various health boards. It was then a matter for the health boards to allocate the subventions on an individual basis. I hope that is helpful.

Why did Deputy Callely believe there was a need to tell a very busy Taoiseach about an item briefly discussed at a meeting?

Deputy Callely must answer that question.

I must call Deputy Gormley, Deputy Neville and others. The Deputy has been given 25 minutes.

To be fair to Deputy Twomey, I will put that question to Deputy Callely.

From the debate at the MAC-CEO meeting — if my recollection is correct — I understood they would seek the Attorney General's opinion. As I was not a member of the Cabinet, I would not be at Cabinet meetings attended by the Attorney General. My understanding was that the Attorney General would raise the matter at a Cabinet meeting at some stage in the future. Given that I was at the MAC meeting, I decided it would be appropriate for me, as a Minister of State, to mention it to the Taoiseach in case the issue was raised at a Cabinet meeting and he would wonder why somebody did not mention it to him. I mentioned it in the fashion I said, namely, it was a first step to get clarity and a definite legal opinion. It was very briefly mentioned.

When in December did Deputy Callely discuss this with the Taoiseach?

The meeting was held on 16 December. I do not know when Dáil business finished.

It was the next week.

It would have been in the following days, prior to the conclusion of Dáil business.

Was it the next day?

I will not say something which might be incorrect but I recall that I informed the Taoiseach during a vote in the following days.

Before the recess.

Will Deputy Callely try to recollect because the recess was the following week?

The following week would have been 23 December.

The Dáil did not sit on Christmas Eve.

That is the point I make.

That was impossible, so it must have been the day after the meeting or the one after that. Deputy Callely must have some recollection of when it was.

It would have been shortly after the meeting. My diary for that day indicated quite a heavy schedule. I had a number of important meetings. I am not too sure if I was in the Chamber in the afternoon. I know I attended an emergency planning meeting because there were other issues facing the country at the time in regard to the Iraq war. I was appointed to a Cabinet sub-committee and I was at a sensitive and delicate meeting for a number of hours. However, I would have been in the precincts of the Dáil Chamber. It could have been that very day or a couple of days later.

Deputy Callely said to Mr. Travers that there was a vote on an unrelated matter.

That is right.

What was that unrelated matter?

Deputy Gormley would be a good man if he could tell me on what he voted each time he has gone through the lobbies.

Was Deputy Callely going through the lobbies? I am trying to work out the exact circumstances in which he told the Taoiseach about this very important matter. Did Deputy Callely sit down beside him or how did he go about it?

Deputy Gormley knows, as I do, the manner in which Dáil votes are called. One is often in the Chamber for a period of time prior to the vote taking place and after it has taken place. Prior to a vote taking place, there is an opportunity to mingle and briefly discuss issues-——

Very briefly.

——with colleagues.

If one is sitting in one's place——

When I walked into the Chamber, the Taoiseach would have been in his seat and I would have mentioned it to him.

Deputy Callely would have gone up to the Taoiseach and discussed it with him.

Will Deputy Callely try to recollect whether it was the day after or the one after that? As far as I can see from looking at the diary for 2003, there were only two days in which Deputy Callely could have discussed this issue with the Taoiseach. Perhaps he will come back at a later stage with a clearer recollection.

That may be difficult.

It will be difficult. What did the Taoiseach say to Deputy Callely?

He listened and he acknowledged.

I want to know what the Taoiseach actually said.

The Taoiseach did not respond. He listened to what I said and acknowledge it by way of a nod of the head. In one day, a likely schedule of meetings would be 10.30 a.m., 11.30 a.m., 12.30 p.m., 1 p.m., 1.30 p.m., 2.30 p.m.——

That is fine. Deputy Callely told us how hardworking he is and we believe him. I put this question to Mr. Travers and it has been touched on briefly by my colleague, Deputy McManus. It would appear no minutes were kept of the meetings of the ministerial team. Is that correct?

I would not be the minute taker, so I cannot say. What I can say is along the lines of what Deputy Tim O'Malley said, namely, we would have had a number of collective meetings with the Minister, particularly in the early days of our appointment.

Were minutes of those ministerial team meetings kept?

I am aware of ministerial meetings which took place attended only by Ministers, which I think would not be unusual.

Were minutes kept of those meetings?

It was only the ministerial team. I, for one, would certainly have had the relevant folder concerning an item I wanted to discuss with the Minister. I am just covering myself here because I do not want some folder to appear with a note or minute and for somebody to say I said there were no minutes. I am simply saying that on occasions when I met the Minister and the ministerial team in the Department, I may have had a file with me. As we discussed an issue, I may have recorded a note for myself on the file, whatever the file may have dealt with. I cannot recall and would not like to say if the Minister, Deputy Martin, made a record of the meeting. He may well have done so. On occasions, the Secretary General would have attended such meetings and one or two other officials would accompany him. My interest was more in my input into the content of the meeting rather than looking around the room to see who was taking minutes. I would not like to give a definitive opinion in that regard.

Is it fair to say the actions of Ministers in the Department were marked by a certain informality and that it would have been a good idea to read and keep minutes? I put that question to both Ministers of State.

Some meetings were formal. Informal meetings are also useful because the senior Minister in the Department of Health and Children is always extremely busy and if he or she wants to discuss an issue with one, two or all three Ministers of State, that meeting could be called quickly to discuss an item. There is a usefulness in having informality. Mr. Travers mentioned that in his report, particularly in the context of the Freedom of Information Act 1997. He did not expect everything that was discussed to be minuted other than important decisions.

Did the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, ever speak to the Tánaiste about this in any shape or form?

Even though it had such serious implications.

Please allow Deputy Gormley to continue.

Both Ministers of State made many assumptions and presumptions, which they reiterated earlier. Why was this issue not followed up? Why did neither of them check that the legal advice had been sought and not received at that stage given that urgent legislation was required? Why did neither of them follow it up? Do they agree it was remiss of them?

The same question was asked of Mr. McLoughlin yesterday and he, like me, made the assumption it was a serious matter. I can only speak for myself and I do not speak for other Ministers. Once the decision was made to seek the Attorney General's advice, Mr. McLoughlin was happy. He was asked yesterday why he did not follow it up and my answer is the same as his. He assumed it was being done. The Deputy may not like the answer.

I was indicating with my hands. I did not say anything.

The Deputy's body language indicates he does not like the answer.

I find it incredible. Is making assumptions the way to run a Department?

I do not want to get involved in this debate but, to be fair, Mr. McLoughlin made the point it was immaterial whether he followed up when he was asked the question because he had got the word.

I am putting it to the two Ministers of State, in particular to Deputy Callely who had devolved responsibility for this issue. It was never raised properly in any forum and it was not followed up. That is the only conclusion we can reach. The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, has stated it was based on assumption.

I wish to correct the Deputy. It is untrue to say it was not raised. It was raised at the MAC meeting in February, three months after the December meeting.

The Minister of State did not raise it with the Minister, Deputy Martin, the Tánaiste or the Taoiseach.

Hindsight is great. The Deputy knows what transpired because he has read the report. We were not aware of all the information and neither was the Deputy or anyone else in the room. We are aware now and, therefore, the Deputy is bringing into play knowledge he has now.

The Minister of State was aware. He received it. He said he understood——

I was aware on 16 December and I saw the minutes of a meeting that took place three months later in February which stated legal advice had been sought from the Attorney General. I saw the minutes of the MAC meeting in October at which various legal options were considered. That was the response from the Secretary General at the meeting. It was only fair, therefore, to assume the matter was being processed. I am not a lawyer and when a matter of such grave importance is being discussed by the Secretary General of a Department and the Attorney General, the assumption is that all legal matters are being discussed.

Did the Minister of State ask to see the legal advice at any stage?

I am not a member of the Cabinet and, therefore, I would not be given that legal advice.

The Minister of State is in the Department.

When Mr. McLoughlin was asked yesterday whether he made an attempt to talk to the senior or junior Ministers, he pointed out it was immaterial.

That has nothing to do with this.

He is not being questioned.

It has a great deal to do with this.

He is out of the loop. These are the Ministers of State who have carried responsibility.

He is not out of the loop. He was brought into the loop twice earlier. It is convenient now and again——

I did not mention him.

Mr. McLoughlin is providing cover for the Ministers. That is the only role he is playing before the committee.

A remark has been made about an esteemed and distinguished public servant. I worked with him and I do not believe it is fair to say Mr. McLoughlin provided cover.

I did not say that. The Minister of State is misinterpreting——

I do not wish to start using my gavel. Deputy McManus should cease.

I am saying the Ministers of State are using him to provide themselves with cover.

Members should refrain from mentioning people who are not present. Mr. McLoughlin had been mentioned twice before I intervened to remind the committee of what he said yesterday. I call Deputy Neville before we break.

The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, learned that the legal advice received by the South Eastern Health Board had significant legal, financial and political implications. Did he draw the conclusion from reading the papers given to them or from the discussion that took place at the MAC meeting or both? On what information did he base his conclusion? There were two sources — the papers for the meeting and the discussion at the meeting.

The Minister of State said he took no further interest. He did not follow up because the issues involved did not fall within his area of responsibility in the Department. The Tánaiste and the Minister for Health and Children informed the committee that 50% of those who are alive and who will receive refunds are psychiatric patients or people with disabilities in institutions. They are the Minister of State's responsibility. How he could he assume this issue did not come within his area of responsibility?

I congratulate the Deputy for winning the campaigner of the year award last night and I wish him the best of luck in further campaigns.

Perhaps with the Minister of State's help.

I have always been most helpful to the Deputy.

I will not go into that. We are dealing with different issues.

The Deputy first asked whether I acquired my knowledge of the seriousness of the issue from the briefing notes or the discussion at the meeting. I gained it from the briefing I had been given before the meeting. On reading the briefing note, it left no doubt in my mind about the seriousness of the situation legally, financially and politically.

The Deputy's second question refers to page 44 of the report.

It reads:

He [that is myself] said that he assumed this would happen as a matter of course [that is seeking the Attorney General's decision on the matter]. He indicated that he took no further interest in the follow-up to that decision because, while he assumed it would happen, the issues involved did not fall within his areas of responsibility in the Department.

The issues involved to which I am referring are the issues of the follow-up to the decision taken. If the Deputy is trying to say that I did not know it had consequences for me about people and institutions, either intellectually disabled people or people in mental institutions, I was aware immediately that there was a consequence for me. The Deputy is correct in saying that I was aware it was my responsibility because mental health and disability services are my responsibility. What I said to Mr. Travers about the follow-up was not my responsibility. Once the decision was taken, it was the responsibility of management and the Secretary General of the Department to follow it up. As far as I am aware, Mr. McLoughlin made the exact same assumption yesterday.

Given his executive responsibility at junior Minister level, does the Minister of State accept he has equal responsibility to the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, because 50% of those affected come under his area of responsibility?

I will not debate the semantics of the figure and whether it is 50%.

The Tánaiste said it was 50%.

I have not seen that figure. I accept that I have responsibility.

Had the Minister of State discussions or meetings on the issue with the ministerial advisers to the Minister, Deputy Martin? In other words, did he discuss the issue with the executive area, which has ministerial responsibility?

I have no adviser like the other Ministers of State. I did not discuss the issue with the advisers to the Minister, Deputy Martin, because they were in the room and heard the exact same discussion I heard on 16 December.

Did the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, discuss the issue with advisers to the Minister, Deputy Martin, at any stage over the following 12 months?

No, not after the December meeting. The reason for this is that there was an agreement to seek the Attorney General's opinion as the first step. One would be waiting for that to come through——

The Minister of State said that and there is a certain logic to it. However, because of the seriousness of the matter and the financial implications involved, I would have thought the Minister of State would be jumping on someone every week to ascertain if legal advice was obtained and what would be the follow-up, including if the State would be caught for €1 billion. That would be the logic of it.

Other members in this room would have been involved either in this House, health boards or councils and had opportunities to put questions to either Department officials or CEOs. We would all agree that the reality in regard to the practice of charges for long-stay patients in health board facilities was that the matter was not highlighted to me or to anyone else as one of urgency. When one studies the Travers report, one can see with the benefit of hindsight and in the manner in which the report is presented, that the issue had been creating concerns of one sort or another, but mainly within the administration. The Deputy and I know that, for example, the Committee of Public Accounts had opportunities to tease out the matter with Secretaries General and CEOs. However, the issue was never brought to our attention. The documentation makes this clear. It goes back to——

I am referring to the period after the MAC meeting of December. We all know that in most areas 80% of pensions were being deducted from patients. The Minister of State knew the number of people in public residential institutions. It did not take a large calculation to know that a massive amount of money was involved if this issue went wrong. As the person responsible for that area, there were serious political implications regarding resources for the Minister of State's Department in this regard. Surely the Minister of State should have come to that conclusion after the MAC meeting when it was decided the money would have to be repaid. That was the obvious outcome if the legal advice went wrong, and it now transpires that was the case. The Minister of State could have calculated easily that there were very serious implications for resources in his Department if the money had to be repaid. Surely that should have activated his mind into thinking that he should get to grips with the issue because of the implications it might have.

When Deputy Perry raised the matter almost 12 months afterwards, everyone decided answers should be obtained. The Minister of State did not query the matter for almost 12 months, regardless of whether it had implications for his Department.

First, it is not my brief to cast blame or make recommendations. The report has made recommendations which I trust will be implemented. Since the December meeting, and going back to 1976, numerous Ministers of various political persuasions have had ample opportunities at health board level and in the Dáil, whether by way of parliamentary questions——

(Interruptions).

Ministerial level. The Deputy is not answering my question.

No one was made aware of the magnitude of the question. In light of the December meeting, a decision was taken in late December to obtain the Attorney General's opinion. As I indicated previously, I am not a member of the Cabinet, therefore, I do not know how long these issues take. I was of the view that the Department officials were satisfied that theirs was a defensible position in regard to the regulations of 1967 and 1987, CEO discretion and so on. All I knew was that we had sought the Attorney General's opinion. I do not know how long it took. Mr. McLoughlin may have given an indication yesterday how long it took him to obtain the legal opinion. I believe he indicated it was in excess of a year.

It was less than six months.

His predecessor looked for it. He only got it a month after coming into office.

I know from the inspector of mental hospitals the number of people in psychiatric institutions. I presume the Minister of State is aware of the number of people in long-term care in public nursing homes. It is easy to calculate that there was a massive financial implication in this, yet 12 months afterwards it had to be raised in the Dáil in order to be revisited. I would have thought that one or two months afterwards, one would have asked if there was any news of the matter because of the implications for the Department.

Sitting suspended at 11.30 a.m. and resumed at 11.55 a.m.

We will begin with questions from Senator Feeney who will be followed by Deputy Fiona O'Malley and Senator Browne.

I welcome the Ministers of State, Deputies Callely and Tim O'Malley, and thank them for coming. I was a little confused by something the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, said. Are his powers devolved by ministerial order or are they statutory in nature?

They are devolved by ministerial order.

I went to great lengths yesterday when putting questions to Mr. McLoughlin to set the record straight with regard to the three MAC meetings mentioned in the Travers report. I asked Mr. McLoughlin whether he agreed with me that at the meeting of 16 December the issue of long-stay charges for the over-70s was listed under the heading items for brief mention as No. 4 of five issues. On page 43 of the Travers report it states:

It appears that it was not intended that a great deal of discussion would be devoted to the Long Stay Charges/Over 70s item in a very full agenda. I have been informed by a number of persons who attended the meeting that this, in fact, turned out to be the case.

Is this the interpretation of the two Ministers of State, that it was not a very pressing matter — it was raised, legal advice was sought and it was put to bed?

From my recollection it was an important matter but it did not involve much discussion at the meeting. Once it was agreed that the obvious step was to get legal advice from the Attorney General there was no point whatsoever in discussing the matter any further.

At the two subsequent meetings on 29 March and 18 October, the matter was raised under the heading of any other business at the October meeting just as an item without any real discussion. At the March meeting, if I recall correctly, it was stated legal advice had been sought and at the October meeting the Attorney General's advice was awaited.

That is correct. For the record, I may have said February but the Senator is correct, it was the March meeting.

It was put to the Minister of State, Deputy O'Malley, by Deputy Gormley that he did nothing by way of follow-up when he realised the importance of the impact this position would have. When that question was put to Mr. McLoughlin yesterday, he rightly said that for every piece of legal advice, there is a corresponding contradictory legal advice. Was the Minister of State of that frame of mind?

The Senator is correct. Not alone that but Deputy Gormley also asked why the Ministers of State were not jumping up and asking why the Attorney General's advice had not come on board. As I stated this morning in my reply to the Deputy, this is a matter of extreme complexity which was around for a long time and about which there were many different views. Once we were informed it had been referred to the Attorney General, then as far as I was concerned it was outside our remit as Ministers of State. Ministers cannot become involved in legal matters; the Attorney General is the legal adviser to the Government.

Would it be a Minister of State's position to go the Attorney General and instigate that legal advice or seek it in the first place?

It would not be my responsibility in this context. Why would I do it anyway because a MAC meeting with all the top management of the Department and all the CEOs had decided to seek legal advice from the Attorney General? Why would a Minister of State interfere? One can ask that question now with hindsight, knowing what happened, but at the time, when one was not aware what was happening or what would happen in the future, then it is an extremely different situation.

I refer to Mr. McLoughlin's evidence yesterday. He said he never discussed this with the Minister or any of the Ministers of State. In his view the Secretary General was the right person with whom to discuss this matter.

Mr. McLoughlin was following proper protocol. All such matters would be dealt with by the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children. It would be most unusual for either Ministers of State or CEOs of health boards to be second-guessing. If one had any questions, one would go to the Secretary General of the Department.

Do I understand correctly that if the Secretary General who is the head of the Department had gone to the Attorney General it would be wrong of a Minister of State to interfere with that process and go over his head to seek advice?

There would be an implication that I was not happy with what the Secretary General was doing if I had gone over his head to the Minister. I never had any information to the contrary so why would I have gone directly to the Minister?

Mr. McLoughlin referred to the process involved in getting legal advice. He stated it took the South Eastern Health Board a full year. He did not seek it in the first instance as his predecessor had. He was just a month in the position of CEO when the advice finally came. Legal advice such as this can take a long time to procure. The Ministers of State were waiting six to ten months for the legal advice. As we now know, there is a question about whether the Attorney General was ever asked for the advice. Did the Minister of State feel this was a reasonable length of time to wait for such advice?

In my experience, yes.

Mr. McLoughlin also informed the committee that at this time the Department still maintained that the charges were legal. He put this very clearly yesterday. Was that the impression of the two Ministers of State also?

I can only answer from my perspective. The real problem is hindsight knowledge. The Department took a position on this matter 28 years ago. When a position is taken, then every argument is used to bolster the decision. As Deputy McManus observed, everything changed in 2001 and there was a completely new ball game. When the over-70s became statutorily entitled to medical cards, this created a different situation from that which predated it.

I welcome the Ministers of State to the meeting and thank them for their co-operation. We can all be wise after the event. If either Minister of State in his area of responsibility was worried about the legality of an issue, would he speak to the Minister in the first instance about getting the Attorney General's advice or would he speak to the Secretary General?

First I would speak to my officials in the Department who would be responsible for dealing with the issue. I would seek their wisdom and guidance as to the best way of dealing with it. They are familiar with the process and would normally be the first port of call. I would wait for what is often referred to as a brief on the position. This would normally be sent after a passage of time.

If the Minister of State thought there was a legal issue, how would he have raised it?

There were a number of opportunities. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Martin, his door was always open to me and my colleagues and this was also the case with the Secretary General, in fairness to him. We had the opportunity at round table ministerial meetings, MAC meetings or individually.

I asked for legal opinion from the Attorney General regarding a mental health issue. Before doing so I discussed it with my principal officer in the Department. My presumption was that the principal officer discussed the matter with the Secretary General. I never discussed it with the Minister, Deputy Martin, because there was no need to do so. The matter went to the Attorney General and I got his advice.

Are there established processes?

There are established protocols, through the Secretary General if necessary.

How long did it take?

It took approximately six months. The matter was not as complex as the matter we are dealing with today.

How did——

I understand——

The Minister of State can hold his thoughts for a few minutes.

The Ministers of State are the only people who can give the joint committee information on the meetings of the management advisory committee. I will confine my questions to that matter. I understand Ministers of State do not attend such meetings as a matter of course. Why did the Ministers of State attend the meetings in question? Do they have a policy of attending meetings when they are available to attend, given that they are entitled to attend them? Is that the procedure?

The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, can answer for himself. I understand Ministers of State at other Departments never attend meetings of the management advisory committee. Such meetings are convened to discuss the minutiae of management issues in the various Departments. Many think there is no need for Ministers and Ministers of State to attend such meetings because there is a danger they will get caught up in the minutiae of management affairs. One assumes that there is no need for ministerial personnel to get involved in such matters which can be dealt with by senior management. It is a matter of delegation. That is how management works in public and private organisations.

The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, and I attended the meetings in question because we were specifically asked to do so. Budgetary matters for the following year were discussed at the meetings which involved the members of the management advisory committee and the CEOs.

Who normally chairs such meetings? Are they chaired by a Minister or a Secretary General?

They are normally chaired by a Secretary General or one of the CEOs.

The joint committee's terms of reference require it to examine the legal and administrative implications of the Travers report. I heard what the Minister of State had to say about the formal and informal meetings which take place between the ministerial group within a Department. In the light of his experience, would he recommend that such meetings be minuted in future?

I do not think, based on my experience of the meetings I attended with the then Minister, Deputy Martin, and the other Ministers of State, that it matters whether such meetings are minuted. Many of the meetings I attended related to specific aspects of the two issues for which I have responsibility — disability and mental health. Matters with which I may have had a problem were considered at such meetings. On other occasions, such meetings were called because the senior Minister, Deputy Martin, may have wished to discuss a policy issue with me. The most important thing at such meetings is to make a decision, rather than to ensure the meeting is minuted.

The purpose of taking minutes is to record the making of a decision. Does the Minister of State agree it can be good to take minutes in the interests of clarity?

There is no problem in that regard as long as a Minister of State has a good working relationship with the senior Minister. When one leaves a meeting, one should know——

For example——

If one takes what the Deputy is saying to its logical conclusion, a person should be present to take minutes and record the making of decisions every time two Deputies meet to discuss a policy matter. One would want to be very careful in such circumstances.

I thank the Minister of State.

I wish to be helpful to the Deputy. Meetings of the management advisory committee are chaired by the Secretary General, by and large. When a senior Minister is present for part or all of the meeting, he can be deemed to be co-chairing the meeting. I understand the Secretary General and an appointed CEO co-chair meetings of the management advisory committee at which CEOs are present.

I draw Deputy Fiona O'Malley's attention to some of the positive aspects of the Travers report which makes essential reading for Ministers and civil and public servants. Changes are suggested in the report in chapters 7.5, 7.6, 7.7 and 7.8 on page 92, in the 11 recommendations on page 93 and in chapters 7.9 and 7.10 on page 94. Some of the recommendations warrant consideration and address some of the issues embedded in the Deputy's question.

Let me ask the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, some questions about the meeting of the management advisory committee in December 2003. According to the Travers report, Mr. Kelly indicated that he had briefed the Minister, Deputy Martin, who had arrived late, as he was going into the meeting. The Minister has given a different version of events. When the Minister of State was asked about the matter earlier this morning, he seemed to indicate that he believed Mr. Kelly's version of events. The Minister of State said, based on what he had read in the report, that he presumed the Minister had been briefed on the matter. Mr. Kelly said he had briefed the Minister, whose advisers were present at the meeting. Does the Minister of State believe the Minister was briefed on this issue?

It is not my role to comment on the matter. That is what Mr. Travers was appointed to do.

The problem is that Mr. Travers did not do so.

I do not want to avoid the question but Mr. Kelly and the Minister will attend a meeting of the joint committee tomorrow afternoon to discuss the issue. I do not think it is fair to ask the Minister of State what he thinks.

The Minister of State has said Mr. Kelly is an honourable gentleman and a competent official. The Travers report highlights a clear conflict of evidence between a Minister and a Secretary General.

Should we ask a Minister of State what he thinks happened between two other people when we will have the opportunity to ask them the same question tomorrow?

I will rephrase the question. It is an objective matter. Has the Minister of State received any indication that the Minister was briefed on the matter? He may have had a private conversation with the Minister on the matter. I have asked a straightforward question.

The Senator has raised two issues. People have referred to the Minister being briefed on what we now know to be the position. We have a clear picture but only with the benefit of hindsight following the presentation of a report by Mr. Travers. When Senator Feeney asked a question about the events of 16 December 2003, I marked the relevant sections of the Travers report. It is stated on page 90 that "the joint meeting between the Department and Health Board CEOs in December 2003 decided that the advice of the Attorney General be sought on the legal issues raised by the legal opinion and advices received by the SEHB with a view to considering whether or not amending legislation should be introduced to rectify matters". It is stated on page 78 that "the problems arising ... which were left to one side in the persistent belief that the practices at issue were at least ‘defensible' in a legal sense even if this, ultimately, proved to be incorrect".

There was a genuine belief in the room which was upheld by the departmental officials that the position being adopted was defensible. That feeling which is reflected in the Travers report was also evident when questions were asked about the regulations in May 2004. When Mr. McLoughlin raised the issue with legal officials, he was told a definitive legal assessment should be received from the Office of the Attorney General as a first step.

The only form of briefing that could have been given would have involved a reference to the raising of the issue of whether the Department's position was defensible. Anybody who gave a briefing would simply have said the first step had been taken and that we should wait to see the result. That was the only form of briefing that could have been given; it is not possible that somebody could have said to the Minister, "By the way, there is an issue in relation to the illegality of charges — they are wrong". Such a comment can only be made after reading the Travers report. In fairness to Mr. Travers, and as I mentioned earlier, many Ministers have served in the Department and he found no documentary evidence in the course of his investigation that any memorandum or similar document was prepared or submitted which would have raised the alarm with any of them.

I am not sure I agree with that. The Ombudsman's report in 2001 and the presentation to the committee should have raised the alarm. If the position in the Department was defensible, why did my local health board in south-east Carlow not pursue cases? Mr. McLoughlin agreed with me yesterday when I said that the health boards had backed off. They did not even send letters to pursue claims, not to mention following through with court actions. As the Minister of State knows, if someone owes money on foot of social welfare payments, he or she is pursued vigorously. Letters are sent and, ultimately, court action is taken. Health boards, on the other hand, backed off completely. I do not agree with the Minister of State's assertion that the Department had a defensible position. It was completely dodgy and the Department knew that, like the Titanic, it was about to go down. In that context, the Department would not even send letters to people to threaten legal action.

The Senator is asking an important question of the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, and me. We cannot take solace from the position which obtains. The Senator raised the question in the context of the actions of his local health board. I am not sure if he was a member of it.

I am not sure if some of his colleagues who were members asked the question of the chief executive officer or if the chief executive officer ever briefed public representatives.

He did not.

What was persistently the case, as Mr. Travers found, was that while the issue was on the backburner between Department officials and chief executive officers of health boards, it was not brought to ministerial attention by way of memorandum or raised along the lines the Senator suggested by chief executive officers with health board members. When an issue such as that to which Senator Browne refers arose, it was simply dropped by the chief executive officer of the board. No notification was ever made.

The Minister of State must clarify that remark before he goes any further. It is incorrect information with which to provide the committee.

Senator Browne is in possession and is entitled, as was the Deputy, to speak for 35 minutes. The Senator is into his seventh minute.

The Chairman is allowing a statement that is utterly incorrect to be recorded.

If the Deputy checks the transcripts of every meeting the committee has held thus far, he will find that I have allowed everybody ample time to speak. He will have an opportunity to respond. Deputy McManus has also indicated her wish to speak again. There is enough time to hand somebody 40 minutes and the Deputy can take it or leave it. I have given people every opportunity.

The Minister of State is giving incorrect information.

The Deputy will have every opportunity to respond. I want to give Senator Browne the same amount of time in which to speak as the Deputy or any other member was given. Senator Browne will continue and a response will be forthcoming from the Minister of State, at which point Deputies McManus and Twomey will have every right to pursue any outstanding questions or matters which require clarification.

Does the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, agree that it was amateurish to fail to set out, in a formal or even a semi-formal meeting, an issue which was so important as to warrant being spoken about directly with the Taoiseach? To meet the Taoiseach during a division, whisper in his ear and receive, in Deputy Callely's phrase, "a nod of the head" was not the way to go about business, particularly in the context of a matter which will cost taxpayers at least €500 million. It should not be forgotten that approximately 20 court cases on private nursing homes are pending. The bill could be massive. It was amateurish to treat such a serious issue flippantly.

I remain slightly puzzled, as I do not yet know fully how Government works, as to why a Minister of State would bypass a Minister to speak to the Taoiseach. I will hopefully have a better understanding the structure in future but I would have thought the hierarchy would go down from Taoiseach to Minister to Minister of State. Was it a vote of no confidence on the part of Deputy Callely as a result of the view that Deputy Martin was not on top of his brief? Does Deputy Callely have any indication of whether the matter was discussed at Cabinet? If not, why was it not discussed at a Cabinet meeting at which the Attorney General would have been present? Deputy Callely made the point that he is not a member of the Cabinet but that the Attorney General attends its meetings. While Deputy Martin arrived late, he was at the meeting and his advisers attended the full session. Surely they should have notified the Taoiseach. Was Deputy Martin found wanting?

Senator Browne has answered his question in his reference to the officials who were in attendance. That would be a fair presumption as, indeed, Mr. Travers agrees on page 44 of the report at paragraph 4.40. That answers the question on briefing Deputy Martin. I briefed the Taoiseach by way of courtesy. It is important to acknowledge the failure of the system which should have been the process of the MAC meeting. I cannot find it just now because I have not looked for it. The MAC meeting of 16 December made a decision with which I agreed in order to allow the process to move forward. As stated earlier, I agreed with the decision to obtain the opinion of the Attorney General as I understood, importantly, that one could not address the issue until it was clearly defined. It was my understanding that the Secretary General would pursue that course. That is the normal structure.

Senator Feeney referred to the MAC meeting of the following March at which it was recorded that the opinion had been sought. Questions were asked about recording. An army of Department officials were in the room to record proceedings. At one point in his report, Mr. Travers expressed his surprise, given the decision at the March meeting, that it was recorded at the December MAC meeting that the opinion continued to be sought. The Department officials in the room were aware of the contrary position. While that was the position on the administrative side, as far as the ministerial position was concerned an agreement was reached and recorded and an opinion was being sought.

Can we move on?

I have a few questions for the other Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley. He said earlier that MAC meetings were generally attended by the Minister and Ministers of State. He also indicated that when the Minister did not attend, neither did the Ministers of State. That sounds baffling.

That was normal.

One would think that if the Minister did not attend, it would be all the more reason for the Ministers of State to do so to find out what was going on. Were Ministers of State barred from attending the meetings?

The Senator is drawing an incorrect inference from what I said. I said that in quite a few Departments, Ministers never attend MAC meetings. In the Department of Health and Children, the normal practice has been that if the Minister attends — and he or she does not attend all of them — he or she may wish at times to raise a matter which would be of interest to a Minister of State. We might, on foot of that, have been asked to attend. That is what I meant. To read into my remarks that a Minister of State should attend because the Minister did not do so is completely incorrect.

I understand that a Minister of State might not attend every MAC meeting as some of them might deal with interdepartmental matters. There is merit in continuity where, for example, a MAC meeting's agenda contains an item which was on that of a previous meeting attended by the Ministers of State. It would make sense for a Minister or Minister of State to attend meetings on the same matters to receive updated information on the issues discussed. That did not happen in this case.

The year 2004 was somewhat different from other years due to the level of reform in the health services. Mr. McLoughlin referred to those circumstances yesterday. Until 2003, two MAC meetings with chief executive officers, which were attended by the Minister and Ministers of State, took place per annum. In 2004, a lengthy period elapsed during which no MAC meeting took place.

I want to move on if possible because a number of members are indicating that they wish to speak.

I have a final question.

I agree with the Senator that it is very useful to hold a MAC meeting between Ministers of State and chief executive officers twice a year.

The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, is quoted in the Travers report as saying he knew of the political, financial and legal time bomb that was ticking in respect of this issue. Why did the Minister of State not brief his party leader, the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, when she was, in effect, appointed his new boss at the Department of Health and Children? Surely the first thing he should have done, after congratulating her on being appointed to her new position, was tell her this timebomb was ticking. When did he brief her on the matter? Why did he not brief her in the first days after her appointment as Minister?

Again, the Senator is making an assumption that it is for a Minister of State to brief the senior Minister.

She is a party colleague. It is amazing for someone with responsibility——

The Senator may be amazed at certain things. He can ask the Tánaiste or Mr. Kelly that question. My understanding is that when the Tánaiste was briefed initially by the Secretary General of the Department during her first meeting with him, she asked for a briefing on all very important matters. Obviously, she was briefed on many matters. At any time there is a series of very important matters in the Department. She was not briefed by the Secretary General — we know that now — and that is what rang the alarm bells when questions were being asked in the Dáil.

As to why I did not brief her, there would be several matters. My responsibilities concern mental health and people with disabilities. I have huge problems about those services, as the Senator is well aware having often debated them with me in the Seanad. One cannot reasonably expect a Minister of State to go to a senior Minister, especially when a senior Minister has just taken office. To be fair to the Tánaiste, a very short time elapsed between her accepting the position as Minister for Health and Children and her taking action on it. It was very quick.

Approximately 50% of the people affected are directly under the control of the Minister of State who was negligent in not bringing the matter to the Tánaiste's attention.

The Senator is entitled to his view; that does not mean it is correct.

We will hold that point for a while. I want to bring in other members and follow up on some responses.

On the last point, the Secretary General has paid a very heavy price for not briefing the Tánaiste. It is extraordinarily negligent on the part of the Minister of State that he did not advise the leader of his party about a matter which had, in his own view, serious political, financial and legal consequences. That is not a matter of opinion.

I have not finished. I am making a statement. The problem we have which is unprecedented is that Ministers are simply walking away as if they were powerless bystanders. That is what is happening and it is immensely disturbing. Ministers have responsibilities under the Ministers and Secretaries Act. I know a Minister of State is slightly different from a Cabinet Minister but there has always been an issue of responsibility in the way Governments have operated. The Minister of State is trying to deny his responsibility.

Before the Deputy pursues this issue further, I must remind members——

I have two questions.

I also have a question. I must remind members that we are not here to form a judgment. They are aware of the joint committee's terms of reference. It is not our function to insinuate negligence.

I was not insinuating.

I note the Deputy is not recognising the Chair. I have a role to fulfil and I am steering the Deputy away from that issue.

I accept that. In terms of the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, this is an area——

Before Deputy McManus puts a question to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, I wish to refute a statement she made about dereliction of duty on my part. I take my duties extremely seriously. The Deputy may differ with me, as she is entitled to do, but if she reads the Travers report from cover to cover, she will find that there is no dereliction of duty on my part or on the part of any Minister.

Mr. Travers made that clear.

The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, had statutory authority to deal with subventions. I presume he had read the Ombudsman's report and the health strategy which made commitments — again, I presume he had to honour them — that these matters would be dealt with. How did he see his role in that regard?

With regard to the briefing document the Minister of State received the day before the MAC meeting, I presume his private secretary gave it to him. Normally, Ministers receive a briefing document which they can read while being driven to a meeting. Why did he not absorb what was in the briefing document before the meeting?

When did the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, realise the position had changed as a result of the 2001 legislation which ripped out any basis for taking medical cards away from people?

I do not know the exact date but I already answered the question by saying the minute I had read the briefing notes for the MAC meeting of December 2003, I knew exactly the consequences.

That is the point.

To answer the Deputy, there are two health strategies of interest, namely, the health strategy produced in 1994 by the then Minister for Health, Deputy Howlin, in which he dedicated a number of paragraphs to the need for legislation, and the health strategy of 2002 which also referred to the Ombudsman's report when it noted it had "raised issues regarding service eligibility and charging for long-stay care". That would have been a matter for my colleague, the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin.

In relation to the Deputy's line on statutory authority, as I indicated, my powers on the subvention side were devolved by ministerial order and were mainly in relation to the allocation of subventions to the health boards. I am delighted to note that it is a fairly held view that I take on my responsibilities as Minister of State with enthusiasm and dedication. I certainly applied these qualities in the Department of Health and Children, particularly in the manner in which I introduced new schemes and rolled out other issues which had not been entertained prior to my appointment to the Department.

In relation to the practice of charging patients in long-stay care in health board long-stay facilities, I have to repeat to the Deputy that this matter was not highlighted as a matter of urgency or in any format, as Mr. Travers has found.

There was a memorandum in the Department and the draft heads of a Bill.

That is correct.

Was the Minister of State aware of this?

No, I was not aware of it until I read the Travers report. The Deputy is referring to what was contained in the report in relation to the Bill. If one looks at the report, one can see with the benefit of hindsight that this issue was clearly creating concerns of one sort or another within the health boards and the Department as far as back as 1976.

What about the Minister of State's private secretary and the briefing document provided before the MAC meeting?

If I recall correctly, my private secretary did not travel with me to the Gresham Hotel meeting.

The Minister of State said the briefing document had been received in his office at around 4 p.m. on the day before the meeting.

Is he saying that throughout that period nobody brought to his attention that there was a briefing document in his office.

The private secretary would have received it — again, Mr. Travers covered this issue — by way of an e-mail. I cannot recall the actual full content of the e-mail but think Mr. Travers clearly——

I am asking the Minister of State the question. When he went into the meeting he had not read the briefing document but I presume he had it in his possession because his private secretary is available to make sure he gets that kind of material. That is the reason Ministers have private secretaries, drivers and others to help them.

The Minister of State had the document but just did not read it.

I went into the meeting which addressed in a brief format, as Mr. Travers reports, the desire of the CEO of the South Eastern Health Board to raise the issue. There was a brief discussion on it and, regardless of supposition——

The Minister of State is not answering my question. He must have got the briefing document because he had people there working on his behalf to make sure he got those kind of things.

The briefing document would have been received in my office.

I am talking about the Minister of State receiving it. People working in his office would ensure he got all the information he required before going to an important meeting.

That is correct.

The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, read it and understood the gravity of it. Is the Minister of State saying he did not have it or that he did not read it?

I am saying that I would certainly have had my folder with the relevant briefing documents in it.

Therefore, he had it but had not read it.

Yes. As I have reiterated time and again, the identification of the issue was in the context of there being a clearly and strongly held defensible position by the departmental officials who were briefing the Ministers. One CEO wanted to raise an issue on the agenda. In the course of the discussion, one or two others participated and the impression was created that there was an issue at stake. In order to assess the gravity of the position, it was a fair and reasonable call that a definitive legal assessment was required.

The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley did not think that.

It was my view that a definitive legal assessment was required in order to provide some clarity so that we could then address the issue. That was the decision of the meeting of 16 December 2003.

The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, spoke to the Taoiseach during a vote. The Taoiseach apparently said nothing in response. In the course of his reply, the Minister of State referred to a diary and told us how busy he was. Will he consult his diary and tell us on what day he spoke to the Taoiseach? He can remember all these things, namely, that he spoke to the Taoiseach during a vote but that the Taoiseach did not reply to him. For the sake of clarity, on what day did this occur?

I do not know if Deputy Gormley puts it into his diary when he speaks to people. I suggest that if he does, he would be responsible for cutting down a great number of trees.

I do not cut down any trees. I put it into my palm pilot. Most people have such gadgets now.

So do I. I would not enter something of that nature in my diary. As indicated earlier, after the meeting and prior to the Dáil going into recess for Christmas, I mentioned it to the Taoiseach during a vote.

Was it either Wednesday or Thursday of that week?

Is the Minister of State saying it was either Wednesday or Thursday but that it would not have been on the same day as the meeting?

More than likely not.

If the Minister of State did not read his briefing notes for a meeting of that nature, it is highly unlikely that he would document a meeting with the Taoiseach if it just took place during a vote. The impression is being created that the Minister of State did not really know what were his responsibilities in regard to the MAC meeting or what role he played at that meeting in December 2003. Overall, there is a sense that he was not really sure of his role and responsibilities in the Department of Health and Children.

He indicated earlier that the former Minister in that Department, Deputy Martin, should be responsible for this issue. He has not made clear if he considers he had any role to play in it. He did not give much explanation of what role he felt the political executive played in this matter. To some degree, Mr. Travers' report has discredited the Civil Service in terms of the Department of Health and Children. In the opinion of some people, this view may be justified.

It appears that no one took responsibility to ensure there was an effective follow-up on an issue that was considered to be of significant financial and operational importance. I do not believe the civil servants in the Department of Health and Children should take all the responsibility for this issue. There is a significant responsibility on the part of the political establishment. Ministers have resigned for a great deal less in the past. I refer, for example, to instances involving the failure to send a letter or the releasing of information to the press before budget day. However, no one in the political executive considers they have any responsibility regarding something which will cost the taxpayer a minimum of €500 million.

The Minister of State might leave the committee this morning believing he has given a good performance but I consider disgraceful the manner in which each person with ministerial responsibility has passed the buck as quickly as possible. No one has taken responsibility. This is something which I hope we will make clear in our report.

In listening to the questioning, I was struck by the fact that Deputy McManus, in terms of her diligence, was likely to hoist herself on her own petard. This information was given to the committee in 2001. In terms of recommendations that might emerge, the responsibility of committee members is equally important in pursuing issues which are highlighted to them.

That is a daft position to take. These people are Ministers in a Department.

I take my role and responsibility in the committee seriously.

The Opposition is always to blame in the eyes of the Government. It is truly remarkable.

It was said earlier that people in health boards should have known about this. The eight page legal summary which was given to CEOs, senior officials in the Department of Health and Children and committee witnesses in their briefing documents has been prevented from being given to members of this committee.

I thank Deputy Fiona O'Malley for her comment. Deputy Twomey made several points, some of which were cheap political shots. The point has been well covered——

Not about this inquiry.

Deputy Twomey must try to understand the position of a Minister working in a Department. One has to work with departmental officials with whose views one might not always agree. Differences of opinion might exist but one has to endeavour to improve the public good for the wider community while one has an opportunity to do so. One must, therefore, work somewhat in harmony and acknowledge that there will be differences on occasion.

What the Deputy outlined earlier would result in Ministers being expected to second guess and ask for another opinion on every occasion when an official brought an issue to their attention, which would be a difficult position in which to find oneself. I refer here to the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, and me. We both held ministerial responsibility in the Department at the time.

The minutes of the meeting on 16 December record the discussion and decision on the issue of long-stay charges in nursing homes. This is referred to on page 43 of the report at paragraph 4.39. The Department indicated it would make an assessment of the need for a stand-alone Bill on the eligibility issue in light of the overall priorities in the legislative programme and the relative urgency of that issue. It was considered necessary to obtain a definitive legal assessment of the existing arrangement as a first step.

In fairness to everybody in this room, we would all like to have a resolution to issues of this nature as quickly as possible. In fairness to me and others who were at the meeting, it was clear that the administration was going to do exactly that. The next meeting was held in March and the Travers report notes that the advice of the Attorney General had been sought.

If the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, or I had been there — we were not — we would have heard that being said. However, we were not the people who knew that did not happen. Mr. Travers records that in his report. He indicates there were people at that MAC meeting who knew that was not the correct position. Unfortunately, neither Deputy Tim O'Malley nor I were at that meeting, nor were we at the next meeting in October 2004. I had been transferred to the Department of Transport in the meantime.

To create a clear picture, I know from having worked with the Minister, Deputy Martin, and the two Ministers of State, Deputies Brian Lenihan and Tim O'Malley, that we would have addressed this issue immediately had we been aware of it. It is fair to say——

They were aware of it.

I want to bring in the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley.

Deputy Twomey asked whether the legal opinion had been given to those who attended the meeting on that day. It was. The custom is to maintain confidentiality for the obvious reason that, if it were to become public, it could be used by people against the very people who sought the legal opinion. That is the practice.

Deputy Twomey stated, albeit unintentionally, that the Travers report discredited the Civil Service, particularly the Department of Health and Children. Mr. Travers is very clear in his comments on the systemic failure in the Department but it is only fair to put on record that he stated there are many fantastic people in the Department who have done a fantastic job.

We know that.

I am saying that because the Deputy referred only to comments in the Travers report to the effect that——

I referred to the fact that many assumptions were made in the report about the administrative arm of the Department and that in-depth discussions were held thereon. However, assumptions were made about the executive arm of the Department which we now know are not true. There was no in-depth discussion in the Travers report about ministerial responsibilities. It is quite clear from having just spoken to the Ministers of State that some Ministers do not even bother to read their briefing notes. They feel there is no need to do so and we cannot really work out the nature of their responsibilities, if they have any, and whether there is any political control.

To be fair, Mr. McLoughlin made it quite clear to us yesterday that he had presumed, by virtue of briefing from the director——

On Mr. Pat McLoughlin's comments, what about——

Everybody is presuming everything, but only one or two people really——

There are only five people in charge of the Department.

I am just stating what was said to us yesterday.

Not Pat McLoughlin, the former CEO.

What Mr. McLoughlin said made it quite clear twice. I am sorry that does not satisfy Deputy McManus but I am trying to be as fair as possible.

I admire the way the Chairman is trying to divert attention on to Pat McLoughlin.

I am only trying to make a suggestion to the Deputy. I have listened to all the information and am not being selective.

Am I correct that the statutory responsibilities of the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, include the administration of the nursing home subvention? He said that earlier during our briefing. Am I correct that the statutory responsibilities of the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, cover the area of disability and the delivery of the psychiatric services?

They are delegated functions. There is a difference between statutory functions and delegated functions. We would not have statutory functions to bring Bills before the Dáil. That is the senior Minister's responsibility.

As I indicated, and as confirmed by Deputy Tim O'Malley, it is by ministerial order, which is approved by Government, that one is ascribed one's areas of responsibility.

Deputy O'Malley is muddying the waters a bit.

How come?

Let me finish.

I resent that, I have been——

As one will have noticed, the comments being made today are only opinions.

I am not speaking about Deputy Tim O'Malley but about Deputy Fiona O'Malley.

The Senator would want to be very clear.

The Minister of State is very defensive.

(Interruptions).

There are two Deputy O'Malleys in the room. Government members have asked why action was not taken by the committee members in 2001 after the issuing of the Ombudsman's report.

That was not the point I made. I stated information was available. People from all sides——

——with political responsibility——

Allow Senator Browne to finish the question.

It is not a question. I am making the point that people were aware there was a difficulty. I am sure Opposition Deputies tabled many parliamentary questions thereon, both oral and written. The responses always indicated the charges were made on a sound legal basis. We now know this was not the case and that the Department of Health and Children had contradictory legal advice, possibly from two sources. This was not made known to the Opposition. It is unfair to put pressure on the Opposition and blame it for not taking action. It was not fully aware of all the facts, unlike the Government.

Senator Browne is factually incorrect. He stated legal opinion was available to the Department of Health and Children. Mr. Travers states he could find no legal opinion. It was said there was legal opinion in the Department——

The South Eastern Health Board——

Mr. Travers states he found no evidence of any legal opinion given to the Department of Health and Children.

Yesterday, Mr. McLoughlin said the South Eastern Health Board sought and received legal advice. It was contained in an 80-page document and the summary was given to the Minister and Ministers of State. That is factually correct. Mr. McLoughlin also stated other legal advice was available in the Department. This is on the record. Opposition members would not have been given this information but the Minister and Ministers of State would obviously have had it to hand.

No, the Senator is making an incorrect assumption. Mr. Travers said he sought all information on this matter dating back 30 years and that nobody was able to furnish him with legal opinion given to the Department.

Why did Mr. McLoughlin say there was legal opinion in the Department?

That is why Mr. Kelly is to appear before the committee this afternoon. We are going through a process and we cannot make an assumption as we hear something being said. We are to produce a report which is to be laid before the Dáil and all the information we glean will be considered while preparing that report.

I have been listening very carefully. The health boards were abolished only a short time ago. The Chairman and several members of the committee were members of health boards. I was a member for a few months short of 23 years and was chairman for two years. I was a member of the Association of Health Boards for several years. The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, is correct that everybody is a prophet after the event. This question never found its way to the clár of the health boards or the clár of the Association of Health Boards, which is the national umbrella body.

If the issue was exercising people's minds so much since it first arose, even considering the allegations made in 1976, strong views thereon would have emerged. I believe strongly there was no clear view emanating from the Department. If there was, it did not permeate down to the health boards, certainly not to the one of which I was a member.

Perhaps the Minister, Ministers of State and Mr. Travers are not saying what people on the other side of the House want to hear. That is the difficulty.

To be as helpful as possible to Senator Browne and to correct the comments of Deputy Twomey, the Minister and Ministers of State who served in the Department of Health and Children when I was Minister of State at that Department knew their areas of responsibility and went about their business in a professional, ethical manner with great enthusiasm and dedication to their work.

Senator Browne implied that Ministers knew about the different legal opinions that were available. This is a crucial issue and, for the benefit of the committee, I would like it to be understood clearly. On the basis of the Travers report, I understand that at no time since 1976 was a Minister informed of the various legal opinions.

How did John Boland become aware of a problem?

If one reads paragraph 3.2 on page 15 of the report, one will note there was an issue regarding what were perceived to be legal concerns surrounding the application of the inpatient service regulations in 1976, as the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, said. It is important that Senator Browne understands that it is my belief that Ministers of State, Deputies Tim O'Malley and Brian Lenihan, and the Minister, Deputy Martin, were not aware of the gravity of the situation. Mr. Travers found no documentary evidence in the course of his examination that any memorandum or similar document was ever prepared and submitted to the Ministers who served in the Department of Health and Children and clearly stated that.

How does the Minister of State explain that John Boland, who was only there for a few weeks in January 1987, was able to ascertain there was a problem and rectify it?

Everyone can make presumptions. Senator Browne makes the point about the late John Boland and I have thought about this myself. Presumably John Boland, acting as caretaker Minister, was made aware of this. When he then went into Opposition and Fianna Fáil took power, why did he not highlight this major issue? If he was aware of it as Minister, why did he sit back for two years and allow the Fianna Fáil Government to continue without acting on it? It is obvious that people were aware but did not understand or interpret the implications.

I thank the Ministers of State for coming in for three hours and acting in an above board manner in their approach to questioning. I thank them for enlightening us.

I thank the committee and its officials.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m., resumed in private session at 2.30 p.m. and in public session at 3 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Michael Kelly to discuss the Report on Certain Issues of Management and Administration in the Department of Health and Children associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters. I invite Mr. Kelly to speak briefly on the main findings of the report following which members may put questions.

I draw the witness's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. As Mr. Kelly has no backup staff or support, it may be necessary to allow him time to refer to his notes.

I welcome the opportunity to address the committee on the handling of the nursing home charges by the Department of Health and Children and the issues raised in the Travers report. I have refrained from any comment in public until this meeting, and out of respect for the work the committee is doing. Some points have been made in public and I wish to avail of this opportunity to respond to them in my presentation. Apart from responding to the content of the report I will also respond to some of the comments made in public since its publication.

As Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children from January 2000 to April 2005, I accept responsibility for the corporate performance of the Department, including any failings over that period. In reaching judgment on that performance I ask the committee to take account of the many positive achievements of the Department in that period, despite the ongoing acute pressure on the health system and the Department, as well as the issues under examination in this report.

The health system, including the Department, is recognised as a high-risk environment. One of the ongoing aims of legislators, policy makers, managers and practitioners is, in the context of providing a high-quality service, to try to limit that risk and to manage the residual risk as best they can. This requires that judgments are constantly made on the best course of action at any time. In regard to legal matters, particularly, public officials would by instinct err on the side of caution.

In understanding the background to the nursing home charges issue it is helpful to ask why public officials in the Department and in health boards, would put themselves in the position of collecting charges from older people and other high-dependency groups in the knowledge that there were doubts about the legal basis of doing so. Why would people willingly put themselves in this position? They would not elect to do so.

As the Travers report points out, it is a position that has evolved over a long time based on a particular interpretation of the law, made almost 30 years ago. In my mind the main issues that confirmed people in their belief that prevailing practices were in order were the chronic pressure on available resources as reflected in a significant level of unmet demand in each of the service sectors concerned, services for older people, people in the mental health area and those with a disability — a deficiency that continues to this day — along with an ingrained desire to do the best they could for people in their care, coupled with an inherited belief that this was settled policy.

This is not to excuse the practice of raising charges without a sound legal basis but rather an attempt to explain why it could have continued on this basis for so long without being fundamentally questioned and changed. It is necessary to think about the context and the exact circumstances in which these events occurred over that period. It is not sufficient to look in a mechanical way at facts A, B, C, D and E without considering the wider context in which these things occurred.

In regard to the most recent period, since the legal opinion obtained by the South Eastern Health Board was made available to the Department in early 2003, the Travers report sets out the chronology of relevant events in the Department. I made a statement to Mr. Travers setting out my understanding of key events in respect of the period December 2003 to October 2004. That statement appears at paragraph 4.57 of the report. I stand over all aspects of that statement setting out the relevant facts as best as I can recollect them. I will give all possible additional assistance to members of the committee in providing any additional clarification I can on the content of that statement.

Following publication of the Travers report several statements have been made which I interpret as casting doubt on my bona fides in providing information or briefing to the Tánaiste on this matter. I take these allegations seriously given my track record of, as I see it, professionalism, my strong sense of integrity and the value I place on my reputation and good name.

On the matter of briefing, the Tánaiste has rightly pointed out that she was not briefed by the Department on this matter until after it was raised with her in the Dáil. As a matter which had been recognised as of serious significance by me and others in the Department in January 2004 this calls for explanation. The explanation is twofold. First, for a variety of reasons the response to the nursing home charges problem had gone off the boil in my mind, and in the Department generally, during 2004. I am not excusing that, I am simply setting it out as a matter of fact. This reflects the fact that officials of the Department saw current practice as a settled policy, believed the matter was receiving attention and that minds were concentrated on other white heat pressures on the Department during 2004.

It is also the case that prior to receiving the advices of the Attorney General on 5 November and 8 December the legal certainty of the issues facing the Department was not recognised. While the Department had concerns about the legal position it was not working at that stage on the assumption that the charges were illegal. The subsequent receipt of the legal advice from the Attorney General in November and December changed this position radically. In my own case, the fact that the folder containing the submission and covering letter to the Attorney General, prepared in January 2004, was not returned to me, combined with the extreme pressure I was under on other issues of obvious high political priority, are the underlying reasons for this particular issue not being followed through. I do not excuse this but I am trying to explain the facts around it.

I believe, however, the arrangements for providing detailed briefings to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, on the Department's overall business are also a factor. The Tánaiste has described a two-hour briefing meeting on 4 October 2004 as the occasion in which this item ought to have surfaced. I believe the reason it was not raised at this meeting was because it was intended as an introductions meeting to provide only a high level flavour of the main business issues and priorities then facing the Department across the broad expanse of its responsibilities. That expanse has been adequately described by Mr. Travers in his report.

This was the first occasion in which the Tánaiste and advisers met most members of the top team in the Department. The meeting was attended by 18 people and lasted approximately two hours. At my request each member of the management advisory committee, MAC, ten in all, prepared a one to two-page summary of key business issues in bullet point format. I deliberately insisted each member should confine his or her coverage of issues in this way so that the Tánaiste would have the opportunity to hear a quick summary of the most pressing business agenda items across the Department. Out of necessity, this and the brief discussion on 4 October concentrated solely on high priority and urgent policy questions and service pressure points. As the significance of the nursing home charges, prior to receiving the formal legal advice of 5 November, was not then seen in that light, it did not surface at this brief introductory meeting designed to provide an initial high level overview. It is of significance that this was never intended as the detailed briefing for the Tánaiste.

By agreement with the Tánaiste I had arranged that each member of MAC, with his or her team of principal officers, would meet the Tánaiste as quickly as possible to provide a detailed briefing on all relevant issues in his or her respective areas of responsibility. These meetings were set up and scheduled to fit in with the Tánaiste's diary. Had they proceeded, I am confident that the nursing home charges issue would have been raised in the briefing by the planning and evaluation unit.

All these detailed briefings, however, were subsequently cancelled by the Tánaiste's private secretary, presumably on the Tánaiste's instructions. They were subsequently rescheduled, although some have only taken place within recent weeks. I believe this followed a memo I sent to the Tánaiste's private secretary in early January, setting out my serious concerns about the lack of detailed briefings taken up by the Tánaiste to that point. I asked that this matter be raised with the Tánaiste on her return to the Department on 19 January.

I believe the full explanation for the absence of briefings to the Tánaiste lies in the combination of the two factors above. In fairness to the professional reputations of the members of the MAC and quite apart from my own, I believe it would have been helpful to a full understanding of the position regarding briefings if the full facts around it had been presented in earlier public statements on this matter.

At the Tánaiste's request, I prepared a report on the nursing home charges which was circulated to the Government meeting of 14 December. It was appended to the Tánaiste's statement to the Dáil on 16 December 2004. The context in which this report was prepared, was one where the primary political focus had already moved to taking the urgent legislative and administrative steps, adjudged to be needed to rectify the problem, in light of the advices from the Attorney General on 5 November and 8 December 2004. The Tánaiste had emphasised to me, and other officials, that she was not concerned with the "blame game" and the concentration should be on working out the best solution for the future. That is the spirt in which my report of 13 December was prepared. The request to prepare the report arose in a telephone call I received from the Tánaiste at around 6.30 p.m. on Friday, 10 December. The request was for a short report setting out the chronology of recent events, particularly following on the receipt of legal opinion by the South Eastern Health Board.

I agreed that I would work on the report over the weekend of 11-12 December. Given the timing of this request, the absence of key officials who would have been familiar with the relevant papers and the concentration of other key staff over that weekend on the preparation of the draft Bill, regulations and covering memorandum for the Government for the following Tuesday, 14 December, I worked unaided on its preparation. This involved a search of whatever papers I could gain access to over the weekend and preparation of a draft report on that basis. Owing to other urgent business commitments on the following Monday morning, 13 December, it was late in the morning before I could resume the task of refining the report for presentation to the Tánaiste later that evening.

In the course of preparing the report, I found I could reasonably and confidently track events up to the point of what happened to the January 2004 submission after my consideration of its content. While my recollection was that it had gone to the then Minister to see before issue, I could not find documentary evidence to support this. My own recollection was not absolutely clear.

A question has been raised in the statement by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, at paragraph 458 of the Travers report why the submission would have been referred to the Minister given that the letter to the Attorney General was for my signature. I believe this question reflects a very mechanical and simplistic approach to the relationship between a Minister and Secretary General of a Department. In practice, the relationship is usually more dynamic. My approach would have been to alert a Minister in advance to any issue that I believed had the potential for significant, legal, financial and political implications. My experience of working with the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, suggested he also saw the relationship operating in this manner. It is also my experience from working at senior levels with other Ministers in the past that they would also have expected to be alerted in advance to issues of this kind.

In explaining subsequent events and contacts, it is necessary to explain the working relationship I had with the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. This relationship had developed over five years and was built on mutual respect and trust. It operated at both formal and informal levels. There had equally been informal and constructive business relationships in place with the then Minister's advisers. In these circumstances and in a context where the declared purpose of the report was to explain what had happened rather than apportion blame, it seemed perfectly natural to seek clarification from the then Minister, Deputy Martin, as to his recollection of relevant events. I did not see anything unusual or untoward in seeking his assistance given that he was the responsible Minister over the period in question.

My meeting with the former Minister, Deputy Martin, took place in his office at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the evening of 13 December. My recollection is that some but not all of the meeting was attended by one of his advisers. At the meeting I explained the nature of the report I had been asked to prepare and recounted my recollection of events, including my belief that I would have referred the folder to him to see before issue. I pointed out the incongruity of my having taken urgent steps involving significant effort on the part of the Department to seek definitive legal advice in January 2004 and then not following through, particularly against the background of the detailed discussion and decision taken at the Minister's MAC-CEO meeting in December 2003. The Minister, Deputy Martin, indicated that while he was not doubting my integrity, he had no recollection of having previously seen the January 2004 submission and covering letter. He also pointed out that as the letter had been prepared for my signature, there was no obvious reason for sending it to him. The discussion finished on this note and I indicated that I would finalise my report in light of the discussion.

I returned to my office and resumed work on finalising the report. Given the inconclusive result of my inquiries, the limited time available to complete the report and the nature of the report, that is, seeking to explain rather than attribute blame and high level rather than detailed, I did not address the reasons for the non-referral of the January 2004 position paper to the Attorney General but simply recorded that it was not issued until October 2004, following intervention by the Tánaiste. This was a judgment call I made in the specific set of circumstances facing me at that time, in particular given the time constraints within which I believed the report had to be finalised.

The key facts as I saw them were that the South Eastern Health Board had obtained and shared with the Department the legal opinion it had obtained. The Department along with the chief executive officers group considered the implications of this advice over a period, culminating in the decision to seek a definitive legal view in December 2003 and January 2004. Despite obvious intent to do so and for as yet unexplained reasons, this had not been done until October 2004 following the Tánaiste's intervention. I finalised my report on this basis. In doing so, it was my intention to follow up with my own further inquiries seeking hard information on the reasons for the Department not acting on its own openly stated intentions. It had also been my intention to discuss the report with the Tánaiste, particularly with regard to the difficulty in pinning down the fate of the January 2004 submission, but for a variety of reasons the opportunity to do so did not arise between the time my report and other documentation were completed at 10 p.m. on 13 December and the Government meeting the following morning, 14 December. After that meeting, the immediate short-term concentration in the Department switched exclusively to preparations for the introduction of the relevant legislation and settlement of the arrangements for the ex gratia scheme.

With the benefit of hindsight, I have to concede that the judgment I made on the drafting of my report left my actions open to misinterpretation. On reflection, the better course to have taken would have been to indicate that further time was needed to complete the report, which would have enabled more extensive inquiries to be made more widely within the Department. For example, I was not aware at the time of my report that there was third party evidence to corroborate my own belief that the relevant folder had been referred to the Minister's office. I hope that in the context of this statement, my true intentions, the tight time constraints involved and the lack of support available to me have been made clear. This is the first opportunity I have had to provide an explanation of that particular incident.

Earlier public comments by the Tánaiste have identified the deliberate withholding of information by me as the reason for her view that my position as head of the Department is no longer tenable. I wish to take this opportunity to make clear my position on this very serious allegation. I am doing so in light of my earlier comments on the content of my report of 13 December. In particular, I emphasise the nature of the report I was asked for, the no-blame context of that request, the limitations within which I worked in terms of people, time and access to papers over the weekend of 11-12 December, the inconclusive nature of my inquiries regarding one aspect of that report and my acknowledgment that the broad-brush treatment of the non-referral of the January 2004 submission, though done with the best of intentions, is, with hindsight, open to misinterpretation. It is possible to take either a benign or malign interpretation and in this case the interpretation taken has not been benign.

At all times, I and other officials of the Department have been open and above board in dealing with this matter. The discussion in December 2003 was an open one, involving a large group of people from the Department and the health boards as well as Ministers and advisers. The agenda and briefing documents for the meeting were formally prepared and widely circulated, as were the minutes of the meeting. The subsequent work undertaken in the Department in January 2004 involved a group of eight people and led to a formal submission, again reflecting a very open and participative working method. Copies of all documents were kept on file and that file was available to anyone who wished to view it. The Travers report makes specific reference to the open, co-operative approach taken by all members of the Department staff with whom Mr. Travers had contact.

The withholding of information in the manner suggested would be totally out of character with the Department's overall approach as reflected consistently by the actions as noted. It may be that the reference is to the fact that much of the detail regarding practice by health boards or in some of the legal opinions provided over the years was not made available at the time the Government was making its decision on the legislation. However, the explanation for this is straightforward. I was asked to prepare a report, within a very tight timescale, on the chronology of events in 2003-04. I was not familiar with this aspect of policy or the earlier background to it. That fact was established by Mr. Travers early in his examination.

The information that emerged under the headings above did so as a result of an extensive discovery of documents undertaken by a team of Department staff over a number of months in preparation for the reference to the Supreme Court and the Travers examination. This was a huge task and involved the identification and search of 657 files and a scheduling of 3,555 documents. A search was also undertaken by the Department of Finance, which yielded further documentation previously undiscovered in the archive of the Department of Health and Children. This discovery process yielded a huge volume of additional information about previous consideration by a number of different divisions in the Department at various times over the past 30 years of the legal issues surrounding the nursing home charges. However, I had no previous reason to be, and was not, in December 2004, in possession of knowledge of the detailed content of these past exercises, neither had I examined the various legal advices dating back to the 1970s. Any suggestion that I knowingly withheld information in this context does not stand up to scrutiny. In order to knowingly withhold information it is first necessary to be in possession of that information. That was not the case.

In developing and understanding what led up to the political decision to seek to legislate retrospectively, I have reviewed the relevant documentation, including legal advices, and I am quite clear that the motivation for doing so was financially led, and that the legal advice being offered was consistently in favour of legislation with retrospective effect. I acknowledge that all this was prior to the rigorous discovery of documents I have referred to, and that in light of some of the documents so discovered, the legal view seemed to be less resolute at later stages. It is a fact that none of the key actors involved in the decision taken in December 2004 to opt for legislation with retrospective effect could have been in possession of the facts which later emerged as a result of the discovery of documents in January and February 2005.

I was not personally involved in the process of consultation with the Office of the Attorney General but my expectation would be that all relevant facts, documents and so on, in so far as they were then known, and regarded as relevant by the officials concerned, would have been made available to the Office of the Attorney General as required. I am not aware that any allegation of withholding information which was knowingly in its possession at any point in time has been made against the Department corporately in regard to this process.

The report I prepared for the Tánaiste followed on the receipt of legal advices from the Attorney General. With regard to the legal issues involved, it set out my understanding of the relevant issues at that time. It also took account of the advices received up to this point from the Office of the Attorney General. I draw the attention of the committee to one sentence in particular in paragraph 3(3) of that report. It reads: "While the legal basis for this practice has now been questioned, the Department and health boards have stood over the practice in the bona fide belief that it was legally defensible." The practice referred to was the removal of medical cards in accordance with the terms of circular 7.76. The reference to "bona fide belief" was, I believed, consistent with a view already expressed in advice from the Attorney General that the 1976 circular incorrectly stated the law, but that it appeared to have been a bona fide interpretation of the law.

I emphasise again that this view was expressed prior to the extensive discovery of documents to which I have referred. I believed that this sentence from my report accurately reflected the state of mind in the Department and in health boards generally, notwithstanding the legal opinion obtained by the South Eastern Health Board. As the Travers report has outlined, there were many considerations apart from the legal opinions obtained by different parties over the years behind the belief that the practice of charging was justified and could be defended if opened to serious legal challenge.

It has been suggested that the policy of settling rather than defending cases where the charges were challenged would not be consistent with the view that the practices around charging were defensible. I have not been directly involved in any of those cases but I have to assume this was based on a weighing of the level of risk and quantum of financial exposure in individual cases. More recently, any such judgments would have been made in a context where it was clearly intended that the entire legal framework around charges would be rationalised and put on a sound footing in the context of an overall review of eligibility legislation. Against the background of the legal advices obtained in November and December 2004, and the judgment of the Supreme Court, this long-held belief is now shown to be legally unfounded. However, in describing what I believed to be the position prior to both of these events, I stand over the position outlined in my statement of 13 December in this regard.

There is a series of findings and recommendations in the Travers report, some of which I fully agree with and some with which I completely disagree. I would be more than happy — although I will not do it right now — to discuss each of those individually with the committee if that is required.

However, I would like to make several general points about the Travers report. As Mr. Travers acknowledges in his report of March 2005, staff at all levels of the Department of Health and Children responded to his inquiries in an open and professional manner. They did so on the assumption that a fair view would be taken of the Department's actions regarding the matter in question over the past 29 years. I should make it clear at this point that neither I nor any other member of staff of the Department was given an opportunity to read or comment on the report in its entirety before presentation to the Tánaiste. Given its overall tenor, set against assurances provided by Mr. Travers at the outset, and the fact that those underpinned the basis on which departmental staff co-operated with Mr. Travers, I have difficulty accepting the assurances given were honoured, particularly in my own case. I will return to that point later.

I cannot, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court, argue with the central thesis that the judgment made on the matter at senior level in the Department over the years, including my own period of stewardship from 2000 to 2005, was mistaken, and that the failure to act on the legal doubts expressed reflected a form of maladministration. However, that judgment is now being made on the basis of 20-20 hindsight. The actions taken or judgments made must all be judged by reference to their context and the circumstances prevailing at the time. While I believe that the report is strong on describing the main facts of what happened, I am less convinced about the depth of understanding portrayed of either context or circumstances.

The report succeeds in drawing together a series of events and views that occurred or were expressed over a period of 29 years by different generations of departmental officials in a variety of its divisions. It also provides a lucid description of the somewhat complicated issues surrounding eligibility for health services. This is a worthwhile exercise in itself, but it is of significance in appreciating the depth of knowledge about the past that informed recent decision-making in the Department that this, to my knowledge, is the first time that it has been undertaken on such a comprehensive scale.

While that certainly points to a weakness in the Department's approach to analysis of policy questions with such a long history, it is a fact that such depth and breadth of investigation of all possible references to charging over the past 29 years had not previously been undertaken. Therefore, the detailed knowledge required of issues with such a long history was not readily accessible to officials of the Department, or to me, in putting forward any views offered before January 2005. The basis on which Mr. Travers was enabled to put so comprehensive report together was that a rigorous discovery of documents was undertaken by the Department to support both the reference to the Supreme Court and the Travers examination. That involved a team of 35 officials working over a period of 12 weeks, from 16 December 2004 to 9 March 2005, and involved an examination of over 650 files and the scheduling of almost 4,000 documents.

It was as a result of that discovery of documents that much of the history of the matter during the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s was charted. That point is vital in appreciating the state of knowledge and mindset of officials of the Department, including myself, in offering any views up to and during the period of the discovery process. The significance of that point has been overlooked or discounted in judgments that have been made and applied in public statements already made.

While the report is strong on probing the actions of officials, mainly by reference to the presence or absence of formal documentation, it seems to employ much less rigour in analysing political action and inaction over the years. It is clear to me from the papers I have read that there had been strong political undercurrents relating to this issue since 1976. It is a fact that Ministers are not in the habit of expressing their views or reasons for action or inaction on paper. It is therefore no surprise that the documents reviewed by Mr. Travers are largely silent on that score.

However, subtle clues are easily discernible. They can be readily interpreted by readers with experience of how the subtle relationships between the political and administrative levels in a Department such as the Department of Health and Children have operated over the years. I believe that political reluctance was an issue in 1976 and 1979, and in 1987. The report's assessment that a simple technical amendment to correct the defect in the Health Act 1970 would have encountered little public or political resistance is naive. The need to address this issue was clearly articulated in the report of the Commission on Health Funding of 1989, the health strategy of 1994 and in Quality and Fairness: A Health System for You in 2001. I am not aware of any Minister, other than the late Deputy John Boland, having shown wild enthusiasm to get on with this legislation until there was no other option. Ultimately, it is the Minister who proposes the legislative programme for the Department.

Among the criticisms of the Department set out in the Travers report is a failure to recognise and act on what are termed "issues of singular importance". While I can readily accept the principle behind that, I do not believe it has the relevance attributed to it by Mr. Travers to in this context.

First, let me offer a view informed by the perspective of having actually performed the role of Secretary General of a Department such as the Department of Health and Children for a period of five years. There is no difficulty in identifying such issues in the Department of Health and Children, since they arise with great frequency and varying levels of urgency. Today's urgent problem may well be overshadowed and pushed down the agenda by what the following day or week throws up. Given the broad span of the Department's responsibilities, the nature of its business and the close political and media attention it receives — all acknowledged in the Travers report — crisis management in this sense places ongoing demands on the management and staff. Therefore, identifying issues of so-called "singular importance" is not the challenge. Being able to address all the issues of such importance all the time with limited resources presents great ongoing challenges, however.

In examining the specific matter of nursing home charges, an explicit decision was taken that it would be dealt with in the context of the overall commitment set out in Quality and Fairness: A Health System for You to update and clarify the entire eligibility framework. That position was agreed by the then Minister. I continued to believe that it was the appropriate way to deal with the matter. The reasons are twofold. First, a fundamental policy issue such as eligibility and entitlement should ideally not be approached on some piecemeal basis. Arguably, it is that type of approach that produced the very problem being examined in the Travers report. As a professional policy-maker, therefore, I would have argued strongly for taking a unified look at all relevant aspects of the eligibility framework, and that was the process set in train in the Department in 2002.

There are also other reasons for such an approach. In my various discussions with the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, about what needed to be done regarding eligibility following the health strategy commitments thereon, I pointed out the degree of ambiguity and anomaly reflected in the current provisions, particularly regarding community-based services. In the context of the strategic move towards a health system centred on primary care, coupled with a clearer expression of entitlements, the pressure on resources would all be in the direction of expansion. The review of eligibility arrangements is likely to lead to a clearer statement of entitlement for a larger group of service-users, for a broader range of community-based services. If that was to be manageable regarding overall expenditure levels, it was possible that further adjustments might be required in such areas as institutional services, the rationalisation of drugs schemes and the charging regime generally.

I am mentioning these as issues that would have been in my own mind as part of an overall construct regarding eligibility. My belief was that a balanced package of reform on eligibility providing some overall improvement would find stronger public acceptance than if particular aspects were treated in isolation. My recollection is that the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, and I were in agreement that that was the better approach.

That remained the position up to December 2003, when the question of a stand-alone amendment on charges was reopened. I would therefore not agree with the Travers analysis and findings on this aspect of the report. However, I am in full agreement with many of the other parts of the analysis and findings. In particular, I agree that the culture of the Department over the years has leaned too far in the direction of facilitating ease of manoeuvre at political level. Policy decisions that go against the weight of evidence and the underlying reasons and differences of view should be formally expressed on paper.

The unreserved acceptance at political level of the conclusions and recommendations of the report should also generate welcome new momentum in being seen to fully meet both the spirit and letter of freedom of information legislation. The change in expectations now apparent at political level will bring considerable relief to many civil servants who feel torn between their public service obligations and their professional need to maintain a constructive working relationship with the political level.

The report is also useful as regards the position of special advisers. Notwithstanding the relevant legislative provisions in this regard, it is the case that relationships had developed in practice which reflected a degree of authority being invested in advisers which was excessive relative to their formal role as set down in legislation. It had become commonplace for decisions and directions by Ministers to be conveyed through advisers. In my own experience this position obtained on significant policy issues in the Department of Health and Children up to very recently. Civil servants in the Department of Health and Children, and probably more generally, will welcome the new clarity around these key relationships The report also provides an opportunity to examine more closely the role of Ministers of State assigned particular areas of responsibility. I do not wish to offer any further comment on that.

Apart from the content of the Travers report, the process in place around its presentation and in the follow-up to its presentation to the Tánaiste, left much to be desired. The practices followed did not meet, in a number of respects, the standards required of good public administration — or indeed, the requirements of natural justice. In the opening stages of his examination, Mr. Travers met with me on a number of occasions and we established a positive working relationship, acknowledged in the report. At that time I was also approached by staff representatives and unions, inquiring about how the legitimate rights and interests of staff members would be protected in the course of the examination. Among the issues raised by staff was their right to be accompanied by a union, legal or other representative at meetings with Mr. Travers and that the normal requirements of natural justice should be met. In particular, there was an understandable anxiety that aspects of the report which had direct implications for any member of staff would be shown to that person who would be provided with an opportunity to defend his or her position in advance of publication. Mr. Travers gave such an assurance, reflected in my memo to staff of 3 February 2005.

In my meeting with Mr. Travers on 25 February 2005 I argued that as Secretary General of the Department, I believed that the report in its entirety would reflect on my performance and that I should be afforded an opportunity to review it and respond as necessary, prior to its presentation to the Tánaiste. Mr. Travers refused this request point blank and informed me that the Tánaiste would be the only person to see a copy of the entire report. Given the nature of the report produced and its specific and generalised criticisms, I cannot accept that the assurances given at the outset were honoured.

I have serious difficulty with the process followed by Mr. Travers in the publication of the statement made by me at a late stage in the examination. I am also surprised at the explanation given by Mr. Travers — if I understand it correctly — for doing so, in his evidence to this committee last week. That statement was prepared at Mr. Travers's request and to facilitate his completion of the task assigned to him. That request followed a number of attempts by Mr. Travers to draft the particular section of the report dealing with third party evidence by an official of the Department confirming identification of the relevant folder in the outer section of the Minister's office early in 2004. I regarded this as a particularly significant development since it involved a clear recollection by an official of the Department, pinpointing the last known location of the folder containing the January 2004 submission and covering letter to the Attorney General. I was shown selected pages of this section of the report and was unhappy with what I perceived to be a dilution of the significance of this third party evidence in the manner in which it was being presented in the drafts shown to me.

Mr. Travers wrote to me, on 25 February 2005, and asked me to review his draft of this section of the report or, preferably, to prepare my own statement. I readily agreed to prepare my own statement and Mr. Travers asked that I have it ready by the evening of Friday, 25 February 2005, so that he could complete work on the report over that weekend. During Friday, 25 February, I prepared a rough draft of my statement. It was being typed as I met with Mr. Travers late that evening. As soon as it became available, I handed Mr. Travers a copy, informed him that it was a rough draft, that I would be refining it over the weekend and would give him the final version later, on Monday 28 February. Mr. Travers accepted the rough draft on that basis. In view of intense pressures on other fronts on Monday, 28 February, and the need to consult a third party to ensure the accuracy of one aspect of the statement, I was not in a position to supply the refined statement until the morning of 1 March 2005. On discussing the statement with me, Mr. Travers suggested that the position as outlined by the third party was contested by another official who worked in the Minister's office. I indicated that I had not spoken to that official but was prepared to do so, for completeness, and that I would reflect the outcome in a final draft of the statement. Mr. Travers agreed that I should and I followed up by discussing matters with the official concerned and reflecting the outcome in my statement.

As far as I am concerned, I prepared one statement which went through a number of iterations in its preparation, all designed to facilitate Mr. Travers in completing his report. On being presented with the report by the Tánaiste on 7 March, I was shocked to find the various unfinished drafts of my statement as appendices to the report. In my experience this is unprecedented. At the very least I would have expected to be asked for my agreement to this course of action. Publishing the various drafts without consent seems to me to violate the assurances given at the outset and would not, in my mind, meet the test of good public administration. The point may seem trivial in the context of the very significant issues discussed in the report. I do not see it as trivial and I believe that it is important that those who preach should also practise the principles they seek to promote. Despite Mr. Travers's comments on the matter to this committee, I cannot accept that there was any benign motive for the publication of these drafts as appendices.

In my concluding remarks I want to make some reference to the performance of the Department. I ask the committee to bear with me on this. It is important that we put this particular issue in the broader context of the work which the Department has been undertaking over recent years. On my appointment as Secretary General in January 2000, in addressing the staff of the Department for the first time I described my feeling of being honoured at being appointed to such an office and I undertook to do my utmost over my term to meet the standard of performance, professionalism and integrity expected of me. I can honestly say that these were the sentiments which guided all of my actions during the time I held that office. Over time, though, I felt equally honoured to lead the team of people working in that Department, because I could sense their commitment, esprit de corps, resilience in the face of ongoing policy turmoil and resource pressures and their tangible desire to make things better for people, particularly those dependent on the public system for their health and child care needs. I have the utmost respect for the people I have worked with and led over the past five years. I do not accept that the generalised criticisms of the Department and the way it does its business, which have been a feature of the public commentary on the Travers report, are in any way a fair reflection of the standard of performance delivered. The same goes for the patronising references to the possibility that the Department may realise excellence only at some point in the future. This broad brush approach does a great disservice to the enormous effort invested by so many people over the past number of years. It is both deeply offensive and seriously misleading.

This is a Department that has produced many excellent examples of good public management over the years. Given the spread of its responsibilities, the sensitive nature of the services it was responsible for and the obvious gap between what is needed and what can be provided in many service areas, it is an organisation that is constantly under pressure and a soft target for ongoing critical commentary. People there work in an environment where every success can quickly be turned into a statement of what is not yet provided. Despite this negative environment, it is an organisation that is very committed to its mission, and acts accordingly.

I was proud to lead the team I did and I take great pride in its many positive achievements over the past five years. Among these I would include the development of a widely shared view about how the health system should develop in the form of the health strategy, quality and fairness; the radical restructuring of the entire system, including the establishment of the Health Service Executive and Health Information and Quality Authority; the opening stages of implementing the primary care strategy; the first phase of the acute hospitals review group and the provision of additional acute bed capacity; service improvements in mental heath; services for older people and persons with disabilities; the smoking ban in the workplace — working with the Office of Tobacco Control and the Health and Safety Authority; the growth in training places to address the chronic supply problems in therapy grades; the transformation of nursing and midwifery education and training; numerous developments in information systems and e-health applications; the rapid development of services for cancer and cardiovascular diseases; and the management of the health budget without supplementary Estimates over recent years. There are many more.

While the report pauses to make occasional reference to the fact that nursing home charges occupy a tiny place in the overall agenda of the Department, I do not believe that the utterly negative image of the Department's performance conveyed in the report bears any resemblance to the organisation I led for the last five years. This examination was concerned solely with the handling of a single atypical issue over a period of 29 years. Any more generalised findings do not have a valid basis in the work done. There are many examples of well documented analyses of policy options and well articulated business cases by officials for a wide variety of policy initiatives. This is the bread and butter business of the Department. In the case of services specifically for older people, there is a range of policy documents articulating the need for more community based services, more rehabilitation facilities, more residential places, improvements in the nursing home subvention scheme and a different approach to address the cost of long-term care.

There are similar analyses and business cases on many other aspects of the health system which are crying out for development, rationalisation and investment. These are based on best available evidence at national and international level. However, it is a fact of life that policy analysis and evidence, though of great importance in themselves, have not been the only major influence in health policy making. It is an area of public policy that has always been subject to very significant pressures on behalf of particular interest groups and at a more general political level. There are many examples to illustrate this. It is not always easy for officials to capture on paper the precise reason for policy decisions ultimately made at the political level which run against the entire thrust of the available evidence and policy advice. If the intention of the report was that an obligation should be placed on any Minister who decides to take action contrary to the run of policy advice from officials, and to record specifically the reasons for the decision he or she is taking, then I would be fully supportive of such a proposal. This would certainly add greater accountability for decisions made and might lead to a more disciplined and better rationalised approach. A useful start on this could be made by Ministers who see themselves as promoting reform of public management, taking the initiative in their own Departments.

I want to speak about the management advisory committee, or MAC. It is the top team at assistant secretary and director level in the Department. Over the five years of my tenure, it is the group with which I had most contact. Due to the scale of the Department's business, I operated a devolved decision making model, where each member of the team took responsibility for his or her area within the parameters of the approved business plan each year. Weekly MAC meetings provided an opportunity to consider corporate level policy issues and to deal with any in-house operational matters. On assuming office in 2000, I inherited a badly divided and demoralised Department, where mutual trust was a scarce commodity. There were very tense relationships at MAC level and at other senior levels in the Department. I worked hard at restoring positive working relationships at all levels in the Department and I believe that I was moderately successful in doing so. While there is still a residue from these tense times, I believe that normal working relationships had largely been restored at senior levels in the Department. Personally, I enjoyed a constructive and productive relationship with each member of the MAC in the Department. I was therefore surprised at the general description of the MAC as dysfunctional.

This view seems to have been attributed to anonymous others inside and outside the Department, rather than to Mr. Travers. Given his resistance to employ what he termed "hearsay evidence" in other contexts in the course of his examination, his reliance on such anonymous sources for this assertion is disappointing. Whatever validity the comment may have had a few years ago, I find it to be totally at variance with my experience over the past two years. It is even more disturbing that Mr. Travers could make such a comment without even having met most of the members of the MAC. This approach could hardly be described as meeting the standard of good public administration. While it is a matter for others at this stage, most of the ideas put forward for rebuilding the MAC reflect very confused thinking on good corporate governance in the essential role of the MAC in the management of the Department.

I want to pay tribute to the personal effort put in by so many people in the Department, including members of the MAC, in bringing about the radical improvement in the way the Department operates and in its contribution to an improved health system over recent years. It is an aspect of the Department's operations on which I concentrated strongly. While it is impossible to expunge completely the effects of bad history, my own heavy investment of physical and emotional effort in this area, combined with the willing effort of many others, did pay dividends.

I have made a long introductory statement today and I apologise for that. However, I have not had the opportunity to make any comment on the matters under examination and on the extent of public comment made on them to date. I wanted to avail of the opportunity provided to me today to do that.

I thank Mr. Kelly for his comments. If there any questions of a legal nature, the committee will have to go into private session.

I have a question of a legal nature. Can I ask the question and let the Chairman decide whether we need to go into private session for the answer?

I will let the Deputy proceed.

A report is completed and adverse findings are given against an individual. The individual is assured at the outset that he or she would have a right of reply, but then that right of reply is denied. Under natural justice, what is their legal standing? What is the status of the report in that context?

We can deal with that after the break. I want to remind members that Mr. Kelly is on his own and he may need to go back to his notes for reference.

I need to clarify one or two things before we go on. Is Mr. Kelly making the point that Mr. Travers apparently gave a commitment to him and his staff that they would be allowed to see the final report before it was presented to the Tánaiste? Was the commitment given in writing or was it made verbally?

Mr. Travers gave a written assurance that individuals whose actions were identifiable in the report would be given the opportunity to view those aspects of the report before presentation and an opportunity to state their defence. Mr. Travers shared the first three chapters with me, which were the factual parts of the report, as well as some pages which are described in my own statement. However, I asked him for a copy of the entire report because it was becoming clear to me that the report, in its entirety, could have implications for my position as head of the Department. When I read the report, my fears were realised because there are so many targeted comments about the top corporate level in the Department. There are also generalised criticisms of the management of the Department in the report. I find it absolutely inexplicable that the remaining chapters of the report were not made available to me before it was presented.

Whether a commitment was given or not, if adverse findings were made against an individual, that individual should have a right of reply before publication.

We will deal with that now.

On a point of order, it would be very helpful if we could a copy of Mr. Kelly's statement in preparation for tomorrow. Is that possible?

I have inserted various hieroglyphics on my statement which will not immediately make sense.

A transcript of the committee proceedings will be available.

When will that transcript be available?

It should be available tomorrow morning.

It would be preferable if it were ready today.

It should be ready tomorrow morning. In the meantime, there is a video recording of the proceedings.

I will try to obtain that recording. However, that means one is obliged to take notes, which is inconvenient. Does Mr. Kelly have a copy of his statement without any markings?

I will try to obtain a copy after the meeting.

Mr. Kelly e-mailed his statement and we will endeavour to have copies distributed to members in the morning.

Mr. Kelly made the point that the Travers report assesses the performance of public officials but not that of politicians.

That is not quite what I said. I observed that while Mr. Travers seemed to probe very deeply on the administrative side——

I am not trying to steer Mr. Kelly down any particular road but rather to ascertain his view for my own information. He also observed that it is for politicians to initiate legislation and I refer specifically to the late John Boland in this regard. I do not wish to lead the discussion in a particular way but am anxious to establish the facts. Mr. Boland initiated legislation and the Department was at that time aware of the legal issues. Given that no progress was made, however, why did the then Secretary General not promote the issue further? Why was the matter effectively left hanging?

I cannot give a precise reason but I can offer my own interpretation having read the same documentation as Mr. Travers. I have spoken to some of those working in the Department at the time to ascertain their recollections and so on. I am unclear as to the intricacies of the process initiated by the late John Boland and his proposal to Government on this matter. However, it seems clear the proposal was put to Government almost immediately before it fell in February 1987. In March of that year, a further memo with the heads of a Bill was submitted to the new Government which appears to have decided that "in so far as is now relevant, legislation on this matter should be introduced".

I have never seen the words "in so far as is now relevant" inserted in any other Government decision I have seen in my professional life. It is a somewhat unusual term to include in such a statement. From Government secretariat documents to which Mr. Travers had access, it seems there was to have been a follow-on meeting involving the then Taoiseach and Ministers for Finance and Health to consider the details of the matter, which I assume relates to the "in so far as is now relevant" term in the decision. Within a week of that meeting, a proposal was sent from the Department of Health to the Department of Finance with the heads of a Bill regarding the imposition of charges for outpatient services and regulation in respect of a different set of inpatient charges.

It seems that as a result of the cryptic wording of the Government decision and whatever discussion did or not take place between the Taoiseach and Ministers for Health and Finance following the Government meeting, what happened the following week was the interpretation by the Departments of Health and Finance of what was to happen. I can only assume a decision was taken somewhere in between that this legislation would not proceed.

I just want to clarify this issue. Other members will have an opportunity to ask questions but this is my only chance to do so.

The issue of nursing home charges was obviously brought to the notice of the then Minister, Mr. Boland, and a process was clearly initiated within the Department. However, it seems strange that those officials who initiated the process for Mr. Boland and saw little had happened in response did not pursue it any further when the new Government came into office.

No, that is incorrect. The Government fell very soon after Mr. Boland had presented his proposal to it. It was only some weeks later that the memo was put to the next Government by the new Minister. There was a period of mere weeks, therefore, between the presentation of Mr. Boland's proposal and the presentation of the new Minister's memo. The incoming Government made the same decision as the outgoing Government that legislative action must be taken on this matter to the extent "as is now relevant".

Mr. Travers gleaned from what are termed the "pinks" relating to the detail of the Government decision that there was to be a further discussion on the matter involving the then Taoiseach and Ministers for Finance and Health. Within a week of the Government decision, a letter had issued from the Department of Health to the Department of Finance proposing various measures in regard to charges but not relating to this issue. What happened in between is not described and Mr. Travers has not sought to explain it, which is fair enough. The file is silent on this point but I contend that at political level a conclusion was drawn that "in so far as is now relevant" should translate into "not relevant at all" and that no action would be taken on this matter.

That is a presumption of what may have taken place at the time.

I thank Mr. Kelly for his extensive contribution which may reduce the number of questions members have to ask. His presentation was detailed and we will examine it comprehensively in our own time. I begin by asserting that nobody questions Mr. Kelly's integrity in this matter. He is the only person who has accepted any responsibility for his actions and acknowledged there may have been some failings on his part. There has been no such admission from any other persons mentioned in the report, some of whom have attempted to present themselves as entirely unacquainted with the issue.

I am fully aware of the amount of work which Mr. Kelly has put into many reform programmes over the years. He and his officials devoted significant energy to the development of the health strategy document, Quality and Fairness: A Health System for You, published in November 2001. The only criticism I can make in this regard is that so many departmental resources were used to draw up what amounted to a Fianna Fáil health manifesto for the general election of May 2002. Many of the objectives of that manifesto have not been implemented but that is a political matter and not the responsibility of the Department.

I have some sympathy with Mr. Kelly's position in regard to his dissatisfaction with his treatment by Mr. Travers. The report suggests that when walking up the stairs in the Gresham Hotel with the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, Mr. Kelly was talking about the positions of the health board chief executive officers. In his own statement, however, Mr. Kelly clearly outlined that several topics were discussed, including the matter of nursing home charges and the general mood of the meeting.

Mr. Kelly's claim that he had discussed the matter on more than one occasion with the Minister represents an outright contradiction of the latter's position. The Minister claims he never heard in any substantive way during the more than four years he spent in the Department of the possible illegality of nursing home charges. We will ask him what he means by this tomorrow. He gave the distinct impression that this was not an issue discussed with him or related to him orally or in writing.

When asked this question, Mr. Travers clearly stated that he had not explored that avenue and that he simply looked at written documentation. Mr. Kelly should tell the committee the extent to which this was discussed, not just with the Minister, Deputy Martin, but also Ministers of State, Deputies Callely and O'Malley, who both stated that there was no oral discussion with them regarding this issue. We had our concerns with those Ministers this morning.

Both Mr. Travers and the Minister, Deputy Martin, contradicted——

On a point of clarification, Deputy Twomey said we had concerns with previous members this morning. I presume he is not attempting to speak on behalf of the committee.

I speak on behalf of Fine Gael. We were told that advisers had a lateral position within the Department of Health and Children. However, Mr. Kelly is making it quite clear that they were involved in the chain of command and acted as a buffer between civil servants and Ministers in the Department. This was not made clear to us in previous discussions, and I would like to hear Mr. Kelly's opinion with regard to the matter.

The memo circulated by Mr. Kelly to his officials in March 2000 was released to us by the Tánaiste. I would agree with Mr. Kelly in terms of the letter and folder to which he refers. It was of major significance and described by a number of people as having political, legal and financial consequences. Mr. Kelly has said all he is going to say on the matter, and we must leave it for another day.

I thank Mr. Kelly for his very concise presentation. It will give us something to read in the next day or so.

We will take one question at a time.

It was a very impressive presentation and Mr. Kelly expressed himself well. He said that he was told there would not be a blame game. Does he feel aggrieved that this was not the case and that he turned out to be the fall guy?

With regard to the Travers report, Mr. Kelly said it was unprecedented in that the appendices contained his unfinished statements and described this as unbenign intention. That is interesting, but given that he felt there were shortcomings, did he not feel that he should have approached the Tánaiste on publication of the report and pointed out what he felt were major shortcomings? Did he approach the Tánaiste with those concerns? Why did he then decide, given the shortcomings, to fall on his own sword?

Will Mr. Kelly expand a little on the management advisory committee and how it was supposed to interact with the Minister and Ministers of State? In his view, is it normal practice for Ministers not to read briefing documents and minutes? Is it normal practice for the ministerial team to meet often and discuss these issues? The Ministers of State came before the committee this morning and it seems there were very few formal meetings between them for which minutes were taken. Is that normal practice or is there an air of informality within the Department?

The overall context for any discussions with the Minister, Deputy Martin, was ongoing dialogue regarding the eligibility position set out in the health strategy Quality and Fairness: A System for You. Following publication of the strategy, we established a small team within the Department to follow through on legislative commitments set out in the strategy. It started work in 2002 with regard to two issues. The first concerned taking the lid off eligibility and the second was the putting in place of a formal process for processing patient complaints and issues raised by users of the services.

I had a number of discussions with the Minister, Deputy Martin, with regard to that project. These touched on the various issues which needed to be addressed with regard to eligibility reforms. This was clearly signalled in the strategy document as one of the matters to which we needed to give attention. However, the tempo of discussion did not have any of the urgency that we now realise would have been justified had the advice we received in November and December 2004 been available to us. In hindsight, and in terms of our own examination of the matter, one of the first steps we should have taken with regard to the issue of eligibility was to seek formal advice on the various terms. I am referring to the Department and not to the Minister.

We did not seek that advice and therefore the discussions with the Minister, Deputy Martin, did not have a sense of absolute urgency or a feeling that "we really must sort this out". However, that changed in December 2003. I received the folder for the Minister's MAC-CEO meeting at the same time as the Minister. I read the briefing documents, including a short summary of the legal position as described by the counsel who advised the South Eastern Health Board. It attracted my attention and made it clear that the matter could no longer wait, a fact that was confirmed in discussions with the CEOs. A different sense of urgency developed around the matter following these discussions.

I am clear that I mentioned the matter to the Minister, Deputy Martin, during the ten minute break in the meeting at the Gresham Hotel. We had dealt with a small number of items before that point and in filling him in on what had been discussed this particular matter had very much registered in my mind. I have a clear recollection of speaking to him about it. Not unusually, the Minister was in a big rush coming in late to the meeting from another engagement and absorbing much information and briefing on his journey from the entrance of the hotel through a labyrinth of corridors to the meeting room. However, I am quite clear that I alerted him to the matter and have no doubts about this fact.

I am also quite clear about the second occasion on which I mentioned and spoke to the Minister about my statement. I did it. The business plan for the Department in 2004 is the size of a telephone directory. When we talk about such publications it appears only to be a label, but I can show members what it actually looks like. The business plan itemises every development planned by each division within the Department, describing it, its relationship to the health strategy, the stage it must reach during the year and who is responsible.

We were not going to deal with every item in the plan in the meeting in March when the Minister signed it off. Mr. Travers makes reference to this being a very extensive plan and that the discussion was very short. However, the Minister and I would have been familiar with most of the items in the business plan. Mystery ideas were not coming from somewhere we had not heard of before. They were largely a continuation of matters already in play and details of how they were to proceed in the next year. I have a clear recollection on that occasion of dealing with this issue specifically and I will be upfront about this. In my own mind, I had decided this was a significant issue in that I was conscious it needed to be followed up, although it went off my own screen and that was a failing on my part. I am conscious it was significant and that I lost sight of it but it did not resurface until much later in the year. I am not excusing that but my explanation is that there was so much else going on. The year 2004 was a hell of a one for the Department of Health and Children. Quite apart from the normal run of pressures, we were under much pressure to get to a particular stage with various aspects of the health reforms, which we did. We delivered on the health reforms but that is where our sights were focused. At both my own level and at different levels in the Department, this one slipped through the cracks. This is not to excuse it but to explain what happened.

On the role of advisers, I do not think it fair to say they would have had a formal position in the chain of command, in the sense that they did not direct policy. However, they certainly received the memorandum I circulated. It was quite clear the two advisers then in place were the Minister's eyes and ears. There was a change regarding one of the advisers, but the same practices continued. I believe the Travers report also referred to this. The advisers were to be circulated with key documents, to be invited to attend significant meetings and they contributed regularly. They would contribute the Minister's view, having discussed it with him, on any given issue. They were heavily involved in any discussions on significant policy issues in the Department over my period of time there. The memorandum I circulated to staff would have also set up certain expectations in the minds of people in the Department that the advisers were playing this role. In other words, if the Minister was not around, and one was discussing matters with the adviser, one could do so in the expectation that key messages would be passed on. I am happy this particular issue has surfaced. I have had a very good working relationship with all of the advisers with whom I have worked. However, this experience does raise a question. If, on something as significant as this issue, advisers are not there to alert a Minister, why are they there?

That is a good question.

Perhaps the advisers had better answer it. I have lost the particular question about the folder, its content and location.

I did not want to go into it too much. I think Mr. Kelly has explained quite clearly that he felt the letter was of significant political, legal and financial consequences and that it should be seen by a Minister before leaving the Department to go to the Office of the Attorney General.

Absolutely. Put in the same circumstances today, I would not hesitate and would do exactly the same thing because instinctively I would feel it was the right thing to do.

On the question of the blame game and how it ultimately played out, I do not particularly want to comment on that in this particular forum. I have the strongest feelings about how my own position was dealt with in terms of the justice of it, the justification for it and the manner of its execution. I hope that no Secretary General will ever go through the same experience again. There is now much positive sentiment around regarding services for older people, people with mental health problems or conditions and people with disability. I just hope one of the useful things to come out of this exercise will be that this sentiment will translate into more than goodwill but into an unstoppable momentum to have the services in each of these sectors — which are still below par — brought up to an acceptable standard. The underlying issue behind this harks back to the question I raised at the beginning. Why would public officials put themselves in this position? The reason people found themselves in this position is that there has been a basic misalignment between the commitments set out in health legislation over the years and the ability of the health budget to provide services to the extent provided for in legislation. That is not an issue for civil servants. Ultimately, that imbalance is decided at political level. I would like to put that canopy over this discussion. I hope that ultimately we will actually see the flow of investment into each of those areas as a result of this exercise.

On the shortcomings of the report and whether I dealt with them, I was put in a position where I was handed the report at 9 a.m. accompanied in the same breath by a statement that my position was untenable. I had a very short timescale in which to think about matters. I made my decision ultimately for a number of reasons. I had not had the time to analyse the report in detail at that stage. One reason was that I did feel a sense of responsibility about what had happened, particularly over the period from 2003 to 2004. I felt very badly about what had happened. The Department's performance on this was not acceptable and when one is at the top, one must accept responsibility. I do not have any difficulty about doing that. The second reason was that I spent a long time trying to repair damaged relationships in the Department. I put much energy into it and I think I had achieved a fair degree of success. I did not want to persist with a set of relationships at the top of the Department which in my judgment were not working at that stage and probably would not be restored properly. The third reason, which weighed very heavily with me, was that the Government was clearly prepared to offer me an alternative position of public responsibility. I must say that I deeply appreciate it did so. I feel very honoured to be appointed as the chairman of a body as important and with such a mission as the Higher Education Authority. I regard it as a statement of full confidence and trust by the Government in my professionalism, integrity and ability to get a job done. I was happy to be offered that appointment and I am happy to take it up. I am approaching that challenge with optimism and enthusiasm.

Who stated that Mr. Kelly's position was untenable? Who handed him the report and said that?

The Tánaiste.

Sitting suspended at 4.30 p.m. and resumed at 4.40 p.m.

A question has been posed for Mr. Kelly to answer.

The question relates to the interaction of the MAC with Ministers.

The question relates to the interaction of the MAC with Ministers and Ministers of State. Is it normal practice for Ministers and Ministers of State to read the correspondence, the minutes and the briefing documents?

I will explain how the relationship between the MAC group and the Minister for Health and Children worked. Various Ministers have different practices regarding this issue, so there is no uniform system for dealing with it. In my presentation I described the MAC as the weekly meetings of the Secretary General and the top management team in the Department . I refer here to the assistant secretaries and those at director level who handle the various divisions of the Department. During Deputy Martin's tenure, it was common for those weekly meetings to be attended either by the Minister or his advisers. When the Minister attended, it was usual for Ministers of State to also attend. The pattern of attendance was not as regular as that due to the Minister's many commitments. However, he would have attended a sizeable proportion of the meetings.

The MAC meeting in December 2003 was part of a process I put in place when I took up my position. I wanted the MAC and the CEOs of the health boards to meet approximately every two months. I wanted the Ministers to be part of that process on two occasions each year, namely, at mid-year, to review how the service plan was proceeding, and again at the end of the year, to review how things had gone and to prepare for the new period.

Would Mr. Kelly characterise these meetings as important?

They would have been important meetings. In terms of the briefings, minutes of MAC meetings were always scrutinised by the Minister's advisers and quite often by the Minister. It was a way of keeping up to date and in tune with things, although the minutes are very summary documents. They tended to be single page memoranda-type minutes that set out action points and what was discussed at the meetings.

In terms of briefings for meetings and the reading of briefing material, in light of the Minister's personal style, which is a very action-packed style — I mean that as a compliment — he tended to pack a considerable amount of business into a single day or period. The time for briefing was usually short, so the briefing was often done on an oral basis. Although the Minister might be handed the briefs, it would not be uncommon to find that he had not had sufficient time to absorb them fully. On other occasions, for example, when the Minister was replying to parliamentary questions in the House, I would often spend until 11 p.m. on the preceding Monday clearing these. The Minister would take them after that and clear them so he was certainly well able to absorb material in a short space of time. He had a busy diary and that was how he tended to operate.

How did the Ministers of State interact? Where there regular meetings among the ministerial colleagues?

Other than their attendance at the MAC meetings, I would not have been conscious that they were having regular meetings as a team. That is not to say that it was not happening. The output from team meetings did not make itself obvious to me. I would have been aware that the Ministers of State might have been meeting, for example, with the Minister. The Minister of State on the child care side tends, because he has a responsibility for three different Departments, to operate in a fairly stand-alone fashion and just interacts with the child care division in the Department of Health and Children and then with the senior Minister as required.

I must bring in other people, and at this point I will ask Deputy Fiona O'Malley to speak.

I have been waiting all this time and had not had a chance——

I am so sorry. I am trying to divide the time between committee members.

I thank Mr. Kelly for coming here today and giving quite a remarkable statement in terms of the clarity of his perspective on this issue. It has been extremely useful. It must be recognised that Mr. Kelly has publicly shouldered responsibility for his own actions and judgments and in doing so has put the spotlight on ministerial responsibility for this issue. I have some questions to ask as a result of Mr. Kelly's statement.

We are at a disadvantage as we have not seen the legal advice, but is it correct to say that the briefing document presented to former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin and his advisors was such that it clarified for Mr. Kelly that the Minister could not wait for the major framework legislation on eligibility and entitlement but had to produce legislation to deal with this issue? When it was read by Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley the implications were clear to him. While it was not read by Minister of State, Deputy Callely, the MAC meeting, which Mr. Kelly also attended, crystalised its importance for him to such an extent that he told the Taoiseach about it.

That is what Mr. Kelly states on the nature of the document, but he also states that it was not the only piece of information that went to the Minister. Mr. Kelly also briefed him for approximately ten minutes when entering the Gresham Hotel. Despite the fact that Mr. Kelly had a sizeable business plan for discussion he concentrated his briefing on this issue. Could Mr. Kelly expand on what he told the Minister on this issue?

The Travers report recognises that Mr. Kelly acted promptly subsequent to the MAC meeting. In Mr. Kelly's view he kept to his own modus operandi, keeping a file for not more than 24 to 48 hours and then sending it to where it needed to go, in this case to the Minister as a further reminder to him that this was an important issue. There was a pattern whereby Mr. Kelly returned to the Minister on a number of occasions with an important message on this issue and the need for legislative resolution. Is that a fair depiction of what Mr. Kelly stated?

On the legal advice from the South Eastern Health Board and any of the questions posed, I can explain my actions and reactions to what I read. I cannot put myself into the mind of the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, and anticipate what he might have done or thought. Deputy Martin must properly account for that himself. I can say that the briefing was a substantive briefing document. From my understanding of the transcript, Mr. Travers said the same thing before this committee last week. If that is the case, it seems Mr. Travers applied a very high test of performance to anything the Department did, so if it passed that test it must have read that way.

Having read the documentation for that meeting this issue was something that was on my mind and was concerned about going into that meeting. My concern was that we had taken a particular view of it up to that point and this advice had been there for some time. There had been an ongoing discussion between people at the Department on the planning side and the CEOs of the health boards more generally. My own view up to then was that it belonged in the larger framework of eligibility. At that point it was becoming clear that action on eligibility would not take place as quickly as we had hoped. That clarity was re-enforced by the discussion that took place at the meeting and former Minister, Deputy Martin, did not have the benefit of exposure to the points made by——

Mr. Kelly came out of the meeting having had that discussion——

——and immediately briefed the former Minister, Deputy Martin.

I briefed him. A number of things had been discussed at the meeting up to that point. This was not the only item discussed at that point. When the Minister came in to a meeting such as this he took a prominent position. I left the meeting to meet him so that when he entered the meeting he would have a feel for what had already transpired. In the Minister's statement he notes that much of the emphasis was on the abolition of the health boards and that is true. It was at a period when it was becoming clear that the health boards were to be abolished within a fairly short time-frame. It was not the most comfortable of meetings in terms of corporate relationships, I am not discussing personal relationships, but the business environment was strained. That would have been a major theme running through that meeting.

In addition, and I am quite clear on this, I mentioned that we had discussed this item and the context in which I would have mentioned that to the Minister was again one where both of us would have felt previously that this was something we could deal with in the larger eligibility exercise. It was becoming clear to me that there was an urgency in this that could not wait. I am not saying I was convinced we needed emergency legislation but I was concerned enough to ask that question. The question I asked at the meeting is if we could isolate this from the more general eligibility scheme and think about a stand-alone legislative measure. It would not be fair to say that at that point I was arguing for immediate legislation. I was arguing that we need to quickly clarify this, get the definitive legal view and go from there. That was at the December meeting.

In saying that, I want to make the point that the Minister arrived directly from another appointment and was hurriedly briefed on a number of items coming up at the meeting, including issues on the agenda that had not yet been reached. This was one of a list of items mentioned to him. As against that, he did get the brief and I have confirmed with my private secretary at the Department that the Minister was handed a copy of the brief that day by his own private secretary. It was normal practice that the brief for a particular day was handed to him on that day.

On the later meeting in March, I am clear that we spoke on this but it would have been among a list of other items. We could not hope to cover the entire business plan in the hour or so available. In meetings on the business plan, I would generally point to a number of concerns, as would the Minister. I have a habit of scribbling on documents I am using. The scribbles do not amount to anything formal but I know what they mean and know what issues I was dealing with. We dealt with issues of, among others, new units, the EU Presidency and general reforms, the latter two being 2004's major themes.

I do not claim that this issue was a prominent item on the list of matters we dealt with but I am certain of my own conclusion that I referred to the necessity to separate this issue from the more general eligibility exercises. I did not appreciate the urgency of the situation but my solution would have been to "snuck it" into the Bill establishing the new structures. I would have made this suggestion to the Tánaiste when I met with her upon receiving the initial legal advice from the Attorney General in November. Events moved quickly after this and the stand-alone piece of legislation became the solution adopted for this matter.

Did Mr. Kelly make this recommendation to the Tánaiste?

Yes. Deputy McManus used the term "recommendation". The Tánaiste was rightly concerned about this matter and initiated the seeking of legal advice from the Attorney General in October, which arrived in early November and on which we had a discussion shortly afterwards. I agreed with the legal advice that we needed to address this issue, the best way of doing so being to insert it in the structures Bill. This did not happen. We did not move on the suggestion immediately.

The second legal advice from the Attorney General some weeks later put a different complexion on the issue in terms of the urgency of stopping the charges immediately and legislating as quickly as possible without waiting for another Bill.

Does Mr. Kelly believe the Tánaiste had the choice of inserting it in the HSE Bill but chose not to?

I am quite clear I suggested it to her before the Attorney General's second legal advice, which made clear that we would have to deal with this matter immediately. It is unfair to say there was a choice at the time.

Events had moved on.

The legal advice was definitive.

Mr. Kelly has been clear in his criticism of the historical ministerial approach of politics taking over from time to time and Ministers withdrawing from making difficult decisions. Does he believe this only happened in the past or that the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, suffered from the same condition?

I did not say that and was clear in what I said. From my reading of past papers on this issue, one must read between the lines to know what is going on. I am certain there were strong political undercurrents to the lack of action on this issue. This is only one man's interpretation.

I am not making the same charge against any Minister in recent times. Health policy-making is not simply about rational choices based on evidence, best practice and so on and this is not just a matter of my opinion. As a matter of practical fact, other factors influence the decision-making process and we get trade-offs between what is optimal from an evidence point of view——

Of course. I wish to ask Mr. Kelly about two other areas. One deals with Mr. Travers and what he did or did not show Mr. Kelly. The former Minister's statement is a crucial piece of the Travers report. Was Mr. Kelly given this?

Mr. Kelly only saw the statement when the report was handed to him by the Tánaiste.

That is correct.

Does Mr. Kelly feel this was unfair?

I worked on the assumption that no one was being shown parts of the report other than the parts that related to them directly. On the basis that I assumed the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment would not see my statement I did not have an expectation of seeing his. Apart from the Minister's statement, I would feel more strongly about the specific and targeted criticisms of myself. There is a reference to opaque language in the Travers report. There is nothing opaque about some of the statements that were made. They were quite direct. I would have expected to have been shown the full report given its import as a picture of performance in the Department and as a picture of my own performance, which I regard as equally misleading.

I am not arguing the facts as set out in chapters 1, 2 and 3 of the report. When one tries to interpret such facts, one must do so in the context in which the events happened. I am not happy that the statement went through. I could have added value to the report by being shown the statement and offered an opportunity to comment thereon.

Mr. Kelly has explained this very well but there is a direct conflict of evidence between him and the Minister. They cannot both be right. One would presume it would have been important for both men to see what the other was saying.

I do not wish to comment further on this issue. Mr. Travers applied his own methodology in preparing the report.

Did Mr. Kelly receive any information from Mr. Travers before the publication of the report on what the two unidentified people had to say?

This refers to the MAC.

I refer to whether or not the file was in the Minister's private office.

I did. I wish to make it clear that, while a person made a statement about seeing the folder in the Minister's outer office, it does not mean the file was handed into the Minister's office subsequently. The person saw the file in the outer office. That is all I wanted to say. The person reacted spontaneously to an interview she had heard on the radio during which the Minister, Deputy Martin, had denied that he had had any knowledge of the matter. She made it known in the Department almost immediately that she had information about it. Nobody asked her to do this. She did a courageous thing. Afterwards, once it had become known in the Department, she was asked by the person supporting Mr. Travers in his work whether she wished to make a statement. She did so, by e-mail. I read that statement and thought it was crystal clear.

The executive officer in the Minister's office said that, although he could recollect having a conversation with the person concerned around the time in question, he could not recollect what it was about. All of the staff in the Minister's office say they have no recollection of seeing the folder in the outer office. There is a difference between a person having no recollection of having seen something and a person positively putting something down on paper and knowing what she was talking about because she worked in the relevant area of the Department. I saw what had been written and spoke to the person concerned in the Minister's office about the matter because I had been asked a question about it. That was the nature of the statement she made. I was struck by the sheer clarity and honesty of the statement and could not understand why that did not seem to come across in the draft.

That statement is not included in the report.

No, the text of the statement is not included in the report. In fairness to Mr. Travers, he had to weigh up the various statements made and try to——

It was a very significant statement.

Mr. Travers had to come to his own conclusions. I want to be fair to him.

Sure but it is up to us to get that important piece of evidence.

I have another point concerning the Minister, Deputy Harney. One of the strong political messages that emerged from her was that Mr. Kelly had failed to brief her on the issue. Any time the issue came up it seemed to act as a trigger that got her going. Mr. Kelly is saying there was a preliminary briefing and that a system was put in place to brief the Minister fully but that it did not operate as the Minister cancelled the process. That is a completely different view from that we have received so far. May we have a copy of the memo and the report by Mr. Kelly? He said he had sent a memo on the follow-on briefings that he wanted to proceed with. Is it possible for us to get that memo, as well as the report he was asked to prepare for the Minister?

Yes, although the report I made on 13 December has been circulated. That was the report circulated with the Minister's speech on Second Stage.

Yes, we have it.

On the memo, in fairness to her, given the seriousness of the matter and the seriousness with which I viewed it the previous January, the Minister would have had a legitimate expectation that, if the same level of seriousness had been maintained throughout the year, the matter would have resurfaced in the early days following her coming into the Department, perhaps as part of a shortlist of key issues, to which I should have been alerting her and on which I should have been briefing her. In my statement today I have not attempted to excuse the fact that that did not happen but I have tried to explain it.

This issue literally went under. Among the many matters on which I was working at the time, it simply did not feature. There are a number of reasons for this but in the end it is about a failure of systems within the Department. That relates to my own handling of matters. More generally, the expectation in the Department would be that a matter registered as being significant and something to be acted upon should be followed up. Even if I had not followed it up personally, there would have been an expectation that others who had worked on it would point out that something ought to have emerged and that the Department should have been chasing it up.

There seemed to be comfort around the issue that somehow it was being processed somewhere. Everybody seemed to have that feeling. I can only explain this by referring to the white heat of other matters in the Department at the time. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Harney, it would have been a normal expectation that something viewed as being this serious would have surfaced earlier. That is why it had not registered. It would have registered, however, if the planned, detailed briefings had gone ahead. They would have been based on the business plan for the Department, in which the matter had been included. Each assistant secretary and principal officer would have been talking up the issues involved.

The briefings were designed to provide for the new Minister a detailed immersion in the business agenda across the Department. It is a great pity that they were cancelled. In fairness to the Minister, in the early days of her new role she would have been under enormous pressure on the reforms, getting on with the Health Bill and the Estimates which would have hit her very quickly. I understand the time pressures would have meant some issues could have waited a little longer but I was depending on detailed briefings to provide the information and help the issues to surface. That the briefings were cancelled is a factor in the fact the Tánaiste was not briefed.

I have one question on the "white heat" of other matters. Mr. Kelly has spoken about the management advisory committee meeting in December 2003. I am trying to put the pieces together. At the MAC meeting in March 2004 no Ministers were involved, just officials. Regarding Mr. Travers, am I right in thinking a minute on that meeting refers to the seeking of legal advice from the Attorney General? That was not, in fact, correct: such advice had not been sought.

I am wondering about that issue.

Mr. Travers spoke to the member of the MAC who had made the statement at the time. I think he described it as having been made in good faith on the basis that the person involved, who would have been the person who had pulled together the team which had worked on the matter in January 2004 and had overseen the preparation of the submission, believed the matter had travelled onwards.

I am conscious of the time. We will obviously continue until 7 p.m. After three hours and 20 minutes we have just heard from Deputies Twomey, McManus and Gormley. I still have to bring in Deputy Devins, Deputy Fiona O'Malley, Senator Feeney, Deputy Cowley, Senator Browne and Deputy Neville.

I think I should be next.

It is not a matter of being next. We have so many sessions on the subject. Members will get in.

On the order——

In fairness, there are people who might have a different flavour of Mr. Travers.

The moment Mr. Kelly put his bum on the seat everybody put his or her hand up at the same time.

I know that.

I do not think they went up in any order.

Everyone will get in. We have about one hour and 20 minutes left.

Let us keep going.

Like other members, I welcome Mr. Kelly and thank him for his comprehensive opening statement. If he does not mind, I would like to ask my questions in sequence, rather than lump them all together. I would like to ask Mr. Kelly a question, await his reply and then I may or may not have a supplementary question. I hope this is acceptable.

Legal opinions were obtained by the Department, one of which was from the South Eastern Health Board and which we are trying to discover. It appears that legal opinions within the Department were conflicting and on the basis of those opinions, the Department acted, or rather did not act, for 20 years. Is that correct?

The Deputy has stated that the opinion was conflicting. The South Eastern Health Board's advice was made available to the Department early in 2003. There would not have been a conflicting opinion on this advice until some time after that.

Based on my examination of the papers, many of which Mr. Travers would have assessed during the discovery process, it is clear that there were legal opinions from the Department's internal legal adviser in the 1970s. Mr. Travers is quite correct in saying that a consistent theme running through the legal advice in the Department at that time was that the best solution would have been to introduce amending legislation to correct the defect in the Health Act 1970. Alongside that, there was an ongoing discussion on how the legal position could be reconciled with existing practice which was to charge fully eligible people as well as other categories of people in long-stay care. There is advice on file and there are references to discussions with the legal advisers at the time which suggest that short of a legislative amendment, there were administrative means by which the eligibility of a person in long-stay care could be changed. That process would have involved a reassessment of the person's situation once he or she was in care.

Having looked back at all the related papers and at the circular that issued, circular 7/76, it seems to me that there is a leap in logic somewhere between what was being suggested as the administrative solution to this and what was actually set out in the letter of 7/76. I have not quite managed to piece that together myself. Certainly from the legal advice that I read and what was actually put in the letter, somebody made a short leap from one to the other. They are not fully joined up.

In more recent times, the legal advice that I think the Deputy is referring to came after the Ombudsman's report on the nursing home subvention scheme in 2000. At that time the Ombudsman was of the view that a person who was fully eligible had an entitlement under the Health Acts to a place in a public nursing home. Furthermore, if the public place was not available, that person had an entitlement to have his or her costs for a private nursing home place met by the State. The Department took advice on this and the advice drew a distinction between the concepts of eligibility and entitlement. The advice essentially stated that an eligible person did not have unrestricted entitlement to a service. The entitlement was qualified by the ability of the relevant health board to provide and fund that service. That position was first set out in the Health Act 1970 and was underpinned by the 1996 legislation which put a much sharper focus on financial accountability and constrained the health boards in what they could do within their allocated budgets.

The South Eastern Health Board obtained legal advice on the issue and I originally saw an eight page summary of that advice. In recent weeks I have seen the full text. Much of it deals with nursing home subvention issues. So, when the Deputy refers to conflicting legal opinions, the conflict was between eligibility and entitlement rather than around the issue of charges being applied to eligible people in long-stay care.

Mr. Kelly stated that the South Eastern Health Board advice was received by the Department in early 2003.

Was this discussed with any Minister prior to the MAC meeting of December 2003?

I did not discuss it with any Minister before December 2003. I have no reason to doubt Deputy Martin's assertion that it was not discussed with him. I have no reason for saying that it was discussed. I certainly did not discuss it with him.

Was Mr.Kelly aware of the legal advice from early in 2003?

No, I was aware that there was a discussion going on between the relevant sections in the Department — the division dealing with services for older people and the planning unit — and the chief executive officers of the health boards. There would also have been some correspondence in August 2003 from one of the CEOs stating that they were still examining the issue but that they wanted to discuss it with the Department because they wanted to reach a definitive position on it soon. In the event, that stretched because in the second half of 2003, following the decisions of June 2003 regarding the health reforms, we were meeting intensively with the CEOs of the health boards on the reforms. We formed a number of joint working groups. We were working together on a weekly basis and the health reforms took over almost all the time we were spending with the CEOs. In the event, it was at the December 2003 MAC meeting that this issue was discussed in a formal way.

I am aware of that but the legal advice reached the Department early in 2003 and at some stage during that year Mr. Kelly became aware of it, but no Minister was informed of it prior to the MAC-CEO meeting in December.

I cannot say definitively no Minister was informed of it. What I can say is that I certainly did not discuss it with any Minister.

Would Mr Kelly not have thought it appropriate, as Secretary General of the Department, to inform the Minister?

With hindsight many things seem to be appropriate and to be good ideas. Having said that, this was something that was in process between the various divisions concerned with it in the Department and the CEOs of the health boards. That process had not reached a conclusion. I would have considered it to be something that was being worked on. As I stated earlier, the area of eligibility was something that was under discussion. It would have been discussed with the Minister on a number of occasions in terms of the wider exercise to be done on eligibility. I saw this as one part of that. Therefore, I did not see that there were compelling reasons to inform the Minister at the time.

I now wish to take Mr Kelly to the meeting of December 2003 where he went down to the lobby of the Gresham Hotel, met the Minister and brought him up to the meeting. I am sorry to harp on about this but how long did it take to go from the entrance to the meeting room? What timespan are we talking about?

The Deputy is asking me to go back a bit in time and remember something that is fairly detailed, but my recollection is that my own exit from the meeting would have been for about ten minutes.

That is fine.

That entailed my going down and meeting the Minister. We did not immediately move to go back up. We spoke for a few minutes in the foyer, if I recollect correctly, and then we made our way up. The journey up to the meeting — I do not know if the Deputy knows the geography of the meeting rooms in the Gresham Hotel — took a while.

What I am trying to get at is that it was no longer than ten minutes. During that time the big issue was the Hanly report and the abolition of the health boards.

I do not recollect the Hanly report being a major issue.

The changes that were to be made.

Certainly. An announcement was to be made about various committees and groups and so on that we were expecting to be setting up after the Christmas period but the main issue would have been around the abolition of the health boards and some of the issues that flowed from that. In addition, the purpose of my meeting the Minister was to fill him in on the meeting as it had transpired to that point. The reason for doing so was that normally when he came to a meeting like that he would take a fairly prominent position. He needed to know what had gone on.

How much time would you spend briefing the Minister in regard to the charges for people who were in long stay institutions or would you simply have said this is on the agenda, we have dealt with it or we are getting a legal opinion?

There would have been more than that. Reading the briefing material as I did and listening to the discussion as I did, it struck me that we were reaching a changed point on this issue in regard to how we thought about it up to them. I knew that would be of interest to the Minister, Deputy Martin, so it would not simply have been, "By the way, we also talked about that" and passing on. He would have got the import of it, and if I can say so, I think I developed — I think every Secretary General has to do this — the skill of very quickly briefing a Minister on what the key points are on a particular issue or set of issues. In a short space of time I believe I would have covered a fair bit of ground with him.

Therefore, in Mr. Kelly's mind, at that point in time, this was becoming a fairly major issue.

I did not say "fairly major". I did say it was reaching a stage where, on my reading of the documents and listening to the discussion, I had certainly formed the view that it was an issue to which we needed to give more attention and, indeed, I did that immediately after Christmas.

I appear to have a quotation before me, but perhaps it is incorrect that Mr. Kelly said, "It was reaching an urgency that could not wait".

Moving on to the MAC meeting of March 2004, Mr. Kelly was at that meeting.

Did Mr. Kelly say or do anything at that meeting in regard to the issue being discussed here today?

The Deputy is asking me to recall the detail of comments or remarks I may have made at that point in time. The minute does not record, as far as I recollect, that I did. Mr. Travers makes the point in his report that nobody from the Department corrected misinformation that was put on the table that day. I have done my best in my earlier comments to explain to the committee that there was some false sense of security around people in the Department around this issue. There was a belief somehow that having done the piece of work on it that it had travelled on and that the request for legal advice was in process somewhere. The comment that was made by the person who made it was in that spirit. Mr. Travers seemed to accept that comment was made in good faith. I do not have any particular recollection of that issue being discussed at that meeting. What I am going on is the minute of the meeting.

This is the issue about which, in December, Mr. Kelly was of the opinion that it was developing an urgency that could not wait. Three months later, the issue came up again in some shape or form at that meeting in March 2004. For the benefit of the committee does Mr. Kelly recall what he said or did at that meeting in regard to this issue?

I think I have answered that question already.

Which was what?

That I do not have a clear recollection of being involved in a discussion about this at the meeting. I am going on the minute of the meeting.

Yes. Does Mr. Kelly have any recollection of discussions at any of the MAC meetings in regard to the long-term stay issue? Did people raise it? It goes back to 1970 and there are pretty severe financial implications in regard to it, or is it that the main concern was with those over 70 years of age?

No. When this registered in the Department all the actions and what people were thinking and doing at the time bear this out. People were not thinking about retrospection, people were thinking about solving the problem prospectively. That bears out the belief in the Department that the risks were much less than actually turned out to be the case when we got the definitive legal advice in November 2004.

Can Mr. Kelly clarify if at any stage in 2001 or thereabouts any memo was prepared in regard to nursing home charges within the Department?

In his report, Mr. Travers has covered the fact that within the planning division of the Department work was done on the preparation of a memo. Is that the memo to which the Deputy is referring?

Yes. To Mr. Kelly's knowledge, was this shown to any Minister?

I will go further than that. I was personally unaware that the preparatory work on that memo was undertaken.

Mr. Kelly was personally unaware.

I was personally not aware so I cannot believe the Minister would have been made aware of it.

The general thrust I have got from what Mr. Kelly has said already is that 2004 was a busy time in the Department of Health and Children. What were the primary concerns in the Department at that time? Was it in regard to reform of the health service? Was much time spent on reform in 2004 in the Department? Would it have been a primary issue?

Anybody who looks at any of the business documentation of the Department through 2004 will identify very quickly that the reform programme was top of the agenda for everybody at political level, for myself and everybody in the Department, and to the point where I had each member of the top team in a situation that I would describe as double jobbing because each person was assigned lead responsibility for a particular chunk of the reform programme in addition to their normal divisional responsibilities. I am not picking up on it but when the Deputy describes it as a very busy period that grossly understates the pressure on the Department and, in fairness, the pressure on the Minister over the duration of 2004.

Would that account for what Mr. Kelly said earlier that this issue went off the boil?

Yes. I do not offer that as an excuse, but in my mind that is what explains it. In the first half of 2004, apart from the reform programme, the two very significant events that were going on in the Department were the EU Presidency which for the Minister, myself and other senior people in the Department, and in a more general way for divisions of the Department, absorbed a huge amount of time. It meant people were not at their normal work station. There was some significant dilution, in my own case, of time which would otherwise have been available for minding the shop, if I can put it that way. On the reform programme, we had identified 2004 as the year in which it had to be cracked. People will identify immediately the legislation to abolish the health boards and the legislation to set up the Health Service Executive as a major chunk of that but in a way that was a small part of what had to be done on the reforms in 2004. Much of the back was broken on some of the key HR problems, for example, and on preparations for the new consultants' contract. There were other issues in terms of getting on with the consultants' contract that related to medical indemnity which involved a major absorption of my time and also that of the Minister, Deputy Martin, through 2004. It was a year in which a number of major priorities were identified. These were very clear and we had to get on with it but, by and large, we achieved what we set out to do.

I am sure most committee members would agree with that. Mr. Travers told the committee last week that when he started interviewing people, he would show each participant the section of the report that concerned them. Did he do that with Mr. Kelly?

He showed me the first three chapters of the report, chapters 1, 2 and 3 on the legal concerns, and the factual piece at the beginning setting the context for the report. He showed me some pages which were specifically related to the matters covered in my statement and the position about the folder having been seen in the outer office of the Minister's office. He showed me those particular pages. He did not show me the balance of the report and it is in the balance of the report that the main critiques and criticisms of the Department, failures at senior corporate level and so on are set out.

Did he indicate to Mr. Kelly at the outset that he would show him the report in its entirety?

No, he did not, but he gave an assurance that where the actions of a particular officer were identifiable in the report, he would provide that opportunity. As far as I am concerned, the entire report has a bearing on my actions or inactions and, from that point of view, I would have thought it a reasonable interpretation of the assurance he gave that I would have been shown a full copy of the report before it was presented.

Mr. Kelly commented in his presentation on the role of special advisers and that if anybody should have told the Minister, they should have told him. Is it fair to ask Mr. Kelly if the Secretary General was the person who should have told the Minister?

That is a fair comment. I did not say they should have been the people to advise the Minister.

I am sorry.

I accept fully that I would have had a responsibility to do that. The questions I was asked concerned the role of advisers and whether I believed they would also have had a role. My belief is that they would have had but I am not arguing that it in any way supplants the responsibility that lies with a Secretary General or line management in a Department to do what they are legally required to do.

I welcome Mr. Kelly and thank him for coming before the committee. I intend to ask some brief questions and ask Mr. Kelly to be brief in his replies. Was the MAC meeting in December suspended in Mr. Kelly's absence or did it continue?

I could find that out for the Deputy. In the normal course, if I was leading a meeting like that I would have handed over to the deputy secretary to keep the agenda going. It is also the case that a normal MAC-CEOs meeting would have been co-chaired by whoever was chair of the group of CEOs at that time and the Secretary General of the Department. That is how the process worked. It is possible that the discussion may have continued on some other items but not on the substantive issues we are talking about here.

On the question of Mr. Kelly's meeting with the Minister, Deputy Martin, of 13 December, would he recognise that his duty, first and foremost, was to the Minister of the Department for which he was responsible? Why did Mr. Kelly not inform the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, that he had met the Minister, Deputy Martin?

There was no secret that the meeting with the Minister, Deputy Martin, was taking place. The meeting was organised. I got a call from someone in his office asking me if I would meet him during the normal working day in his offices in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Given that I felt he ought to be able to provide some information which would help to fill the gap, as I saw it, in pinning down what happened after my reading of the submission of January 2004, I did not think there was anything unusual or untoward——

I ask the question because Mr. Kelly mentioned in his presentation that benign or malign inferences could have been drawn, and that he felt malign inferences were drawn. In so far as one does not like to offer opportunities for people to make inferences, would Mr. Kelly have felt that the Minister to whom he was responsible would have been entitled to be informed that he had had the meeting?

There is almost an implication in asking the question. To answer the question, if a meeting takes place with another Minister on an issue on which I had been asked, as Secretary General, to prepare a report for the then Minister, it would be a fair point.

On the question of the advice to the Attorney General, given that it was Mr. Kelly's responsibility as the Accounting Officer in the Department and because his signature would be on the letter seeking advice, why would he have deemed it necessary to send the letter into the Minister's Department? Mr. Kelly mentioned in his presentation that he felt he should inform the Minister out of courtesy, and I accept that, but would he not have thought that copying the letter to the Minister would have been appropriate in terms of Mr. Kelly being Accounting Officer for the Department?

When the Deputy talks about the Accounting Officer role, the Secretary General in any situation is always discharging two roles, one as Secretary General and the other as Accounting Officer, and the two roles operate in parallel. As I said in my statement, I would have regarded alerting a Minister to something like this in advance as normal practice. I would not have seen anything particularly unusual about that. In the normal course, I would have expected that this folder would have been dealt with within a week or a short space of time. The act of consulting the Minister in advance on this was not expected to lead, in my mind, to a long delay on it. Therefore, I do not believe the Accounting Officer dimension is as significant. As time went on, clearly, in the Accounting Officer role of protecting the resources, assets and all the rest of it, that did become a more serious issue.

The critical point is that the file did not come back to Mr. Kelly for his signature, to be sent to the Attorney General.

Yes, but I am not ducking my responsibility.

No, I accept that.

My responsibility was to sign the letter. I am not ducking that. I did not get to sign the letter and I must accept responsibility for that. I am saying, though, that there are circumstances here which meant that had the folder been returned to me the next step would have been obvious and clear. The fact is that it was not. I am not attributing responsibility for that. I am taking responsibility for the fact that, ultimately, I should have been chasing this but I did not. Other people in the Department should also have been chasing this. I want to make it clear that, irrespective of whether Deputy Micheál Martin was in the loop on this, the ultimate responsibility to get that letter issued came back to me. There is no ambiguity about that.

Mr. Kelly mentioned that when the Tánaiste presented the report to him, almost in the same sentence she implied that his position was untenable. Given what Mr. Kelly has said to the committee, would he agree that his position was untenable? Would he have arrived at the same conclusion?

No, I would not because if I were reaching a judgment on my performance as Secretary General, I would expect the judgment to take account of the overall portfolio. I would not have expected the judgment to be around a single issue which had a 30-year history. Admittedly, the more recent episode on that, in terms of my own performance, would have left a lot to be desired. If I were making a judgment, I would have considered a wider canvas than this particular issue. In the context of normal practice, that would also have been indicated.

Earlier, during his presentation, Mr. Kelly said that this issue went off the screen. He also said that it went off the boil and that the Department settled into practice because it saw the matter was receiving attention. At the back of his mind, however, he must have know that it was not receiving attention because the letter to be forwarded to the Attorney General was never returned to him to issue.

If that had been at the back of my mind, does the Deputy not think that I would have actioned it, given the action I took immediately after Christmas?

Which action was that?

I got the whole process moving after Christmas. Does the Deputy not think so? It is quite clear to me that after the discussion on this in December I got moving on it and got other people moving on it. It reached a certain point and then it stopped. The responsibility for the next action on this was mine. I accept that. I took a particular route through that and as a result, the folder — I will use that term — got lost and did not come back. The return of that folder would have prompted the next action on my part.

I also think, and I said it earlier on, that elsewhere in the Department it would have been a normal expectation that there would have been some prompting of the response on this. We were hearing nothing back from the Attorney General. I am accepting that, as head of the Department, that failure of systems comes back to me.

My final question is about the briefing of the new Minister. Mr. Kelly mentioned that the initial meeting he would have had with roughly 18 people was to give a quick summary. Was there an MAC member with responsibility for this issue present at the meeting?

The MAC member with responsibility on this side is the person who looks after the finance and planning side. As to whether that person was actually at the meeting, I would have to look at the report of it. I do not have that with me.

I welcome Mr. Kelly and thank him for his presentation. We are holding him for a long time. Can I ask Mr. Kelly about this infamous folder? Do all folders for the Attorney General's advice have to go to the Minister first?

No, I would not have thought so. That would not necessarily be the case although some might. On this matter, the fact is that it did have a particular legal aspect and we were thinking prospectively at this stage about whether there was a threat over the ability of health boards to make charges that would convert into a loss in terms of income and therefore service delivery of somewhere in the order of €100 million. Therefore, this particular matter rose to my level in the Department. It would be unusual enough for a request for legal advice from the Attorney General to come to me also.

Were there any other times when Mr. Kelly would have sought advice from the Attorney General and would have sent the file to the Minister first?

I do not remember personally signing off on letters looking for legal advice as Secretary General.

Was this the first time Mr. Kelly had sought advice?

I do not recollect. In the normal course that kind of letter would probably have issued at Assistant Secretary level or even at principal officer level.

We know it was in a folder but how many documents were in the folder — one or two letters?

There was a letter and the submission that was to go to the Office of the Attorney General. There was a short covering memo from the group that had prepared the submission.

Therefore, it was an important folder containing an important letter. This was the first time Mr. Kelly had sought legal advice from the Attorney General. Is it not the practice of the Department to have a copy of that file on a hard disk?

There is a copy.

Was that just left there when the folder or file disappeared?

The folder was what arrived with me. It was a thin folder with a few papers in it, a cover and a title, which would be the normal process. In the main division dealing with this there would have been the parent file. Not alone would the documents have been on hard disk, but there would have been a hard copy version of these documents on the file.

Was there no check system on that hard disk to say "This is inactive. Nothing is happening here"?

I have to accept this was a submission of some significance and there was a failure to follow through on that administratively in the Department. I have to claim my own part of the responsibility for that.

There is a check system in place, however.

Normally there would be a follow up on folders of that significance. It would be a fairly well ingrained practice in the Department that one does not just submit. Having said that, there were some previous occasions when folders — I will not say of similar significance, but certainly folders of significance — had been submitted and, again, had not turned up. It would have been some time afterwards before the Department caught up with them.

Was Mr. Kelly or the Department aware of any health board being reluctant to settle any individual cases cornering the over-70s?

Any individual health board?

Any of the health boards around the country.

If the Senator is asking me whether I was aware, I would not have been aware of the practice in the boards.

What about the Department?

Again, it follows on the comment made in the Travers report. I got the impression from the report that there was a widespread practice which was somehow inspired by the Department. I have been unable to find any basis for that. Apparently, there are papers from some time in the 1980s on a particular case in one of the health boards where at that point and in those particular circumstances the advice from the Department to the board was not to challenge it in the High Court.

As I said earlier, I do not know what the practices were in the health boards on this issue or whether there was some generic practice. I do not think there was and, if I understood correctly what Mr. McLoughlin said yesterday, in the South Eastern Health Board, for example, it did not seem to be the practice not to challenge where this issue arose. I do not know what the practice was in other health boards but from my own inquiries in the Department, my belief is that there was no kind of direction or generic response to this issue from the Department. My belief is that in individual cases, as in any legal cases, depending on the level of risk and on the potential financial exposure, one makes a judgment.

The business plan of a Department is a document in which it sets out its priorities. Who draws up that document?

It is drawn up by the Department at administrative level. In the Department of Health and Children, the management advisory committee, MAC, would have taken a particular responsibility for it. We went through a cycle at the beginning of each year. In the course of doing that, we would always discuss the priorities from the political end with the Minister and the advisers so that they were fully accommodated. Usually my discussion with the Minister about the business plan would have come down to a small number of net issues. Generally he would not have concerned himself with the detail of what was in every plan. He would have got a general flavour of the plan but then he would always have had particular issues which he would have wanted pursued.

Basically it would be drawn up by management.

Yesterday, Mr. McLoughlin explained to us that he did not seek the legal advice but that his predecessor did. In November 2002, he was one month in his job when the legal advice was put on his desk. He told us he never discussed it with the Minister or the Ministers of State and that he felt it was a discussion he would have had only with, as he put it, "your good self", meaning Mr. Kelly. He was asked why he did not act on it the moment he got it in November 2002. He said there was a meeting of the MAC coming up in February 2003 at which he would talk to the then Secretary General, Mr. Kelly, about it.

According to Travers, there were three meetings of the MAC group of chief executive officers on 16 December 2002, 29 March 2003 and 18 October 2003. On each of the days the committee sat, given where this issue was placed on the agenda of each of the three meetings, it would appear it was not a burning issue. Mr. Kelly said earlier that he had ongoing discussions from time to time with the former Minister, Deputy Martin, but that there was no great urgency in trying to sort out this issue and that in 2003, he changed his mind and got the folder at the same time as the Minister, read the legal advice of the South Eastern Health Board and that it was very clear in his mind. When in 2003 did Mr. Kelly read the advice? Was it in February or later? I thought that meeting did not go ahead.

December 2003 was the point at which that advice registered with me and it was in preparation for the meeting of the MAC group and chief executive officers, CEOs. I think that is a natural enough reaction. I cannot quantify it here but the number of items of work which would have crossed my desk in any particular week when I was in the Department of Health and Children would have been a blur in that a considerable amount passes through. There was an ongoing discussion between the relevant division in the Department and the South Eastern Health Board or the CEOs. When Mr. McLoughlin said — I am a little puzzled by it — that the only person he would have discussed this with would have been my good self——

Those were his words.

I do not fully understand that.

He said he felt the Secretary General was the right person to talk to about this issue.

As between the Ministers and the senior level in the Department, I absolutely agree with that. The normal relationship CEOs would have would be with the senior management of the Department. There would have been few enough opportunities for CEOs to discuss matters directly with me other than in the context of the meetings of the MAC group of CEOs and some of the major issues around service plans. In fact, the ongoing traffic generally would not really be at CEO level but at a level below that in the health boards and a level below the level of Secretary General or even the MAC in the Department.

I would need a bit more clarification on what Mr. McLoughlin said. Certainly when the CEOs had come to a conclusion about this issue by the end of 2003, it was certainly being fielded at the meeting of the MAC group of CEOs. It was maybe in that context Mr. McLoughlin was talking about the CEOs generally discussing this with me and the management team in the Department.

Does Mr. Kelly believe Mr. McLoughlin did not bring this issue to his attention until the MAC meeting in December 2003?

I am not saying that. It is clear from the Travers report, and I have not heard anybody in the Department contest it, that the legal advice from the South Eastern Health Board was known to the Department. Senator Feeney is asking me when this issue registered with me as being significant.

I am asking Mr. Kelly if Mr. McLoughlin discussed it with him personally before December 2003.

I certainly do not have a recollection of a significant discussion with Mr. McLoughlin on this issue before December 2003 but that is not to say that in the course of one of the regular meetings he would have had with the management team in the Department on service plans or something else that this might not have been raised. However, if Senator Feeney is asking me whether he discussed this with me on a one-to-one basis, I certainly have no recollection of that.

When the Minister appointed his two advisers, Mr. Kelly sent a memorandum to each member of the MAC, each principal officer and to his staff outlining in general what the relationship would be. It stated that any policy documents being submitted to the Minister should be copied to the relevant adviser and that he or she should be made aware of and invited to key meetings concerning either a policy change or high profile topics or incidents. It also mentioned circulation of relevant documents to the advisers and participation of advisers at the MAC meetings. Is that roughly what they were to get?

Did Mr. Kelly or any of his officials talk to the advisers about this issue or give them any documentation on it?

Does the Senator mean prior to December 2003?

In the normal course, where the Minister and the advisers were attending a meeting, the advisers would have received a copy of the briefing material the Minister got. Again, I have confirmed that with my private secretary who told me that the person who supported Mr. Travers in this examination had checked this out and that the folders on this would have been circulated to the advisers, again within the same sort of timescale as the Minister did.

With regard to the question as to whether prior to that, any of the legal advice from the South Eastern Health Board would have been discussed by the people in the planning unit dealing with this, I do not know.

Does Mr. Kelly feel the advisers were made aware of it verbally or through documents?

Certainly at the December 2003 meeting. The information I have is that they were circulated with the same folder as the Minister and that would have included the documentation on the South Eastern Health Board advice.

Mr. Kelly said he set up two legal groups in 2004, with one to look after the eligibility issue. Who was to sit on them? Were the Minister or Ministers of State asked to sit on them?

No. I said we set up a small legislation unit. It was a unit made of a small number of civil servants. One of the major challenges we had — and this would have been shared by myself, the Minister and the staff of the Department — was that we were trying to mount a huge reform programme on a shoestring in terms of resources. We had two people assigned to the small legislation unit and a daunting set of legislative tasks for them to perform. We were conscious of the major restructuring legislation, the Health Bill 2004, but, because the thinking on that was still shaping up at the time, the legislation unit was set up. We got them working on the formal complaints process legislation and the review of eligibility, which was intended to embrace this and other issues that needed to be clarified on the general framework around eligibility. It was a group of civil servants.

Did the Ministers know about it?

They did.

I wish to follow up Deputy Fiona O'Malley's question about Mr. Kelly's final statement of 1 March. He states in the second last paragraph of page 115, "I accept that my failure to recollect and follow up on the submission is open to criticism." Is that correct?

However, Mr. Kelly does not feel his position was untenable at that stage. Does he believe he should have been criticised with no stronger measures taken against him? I put the question in the context of the Exchequer being hit with the largest bill to emerge from a Department.

Can I ask the Senator about the bill? The bill is accumulating since 1976. I certainly will take responsibility for my part of this but I will not carry on my back responsibility going back to 1976 and I do not think I should be asked to.

Absolutely.

I do not know what the Government's position will be but, ultimately, if, for example, a period of years will be covered by whatever repayments are put in place — I do not know what is in the mind of the Government — that is a liability that would have arisen whether this circle was cut in January 2004 or November 2004. That same issue and liability would have arisen whether it was January or November and that very point was made to me by Mr. Travers in the course of his examination. I accept there is a large liability but the largeness has to do with the duration of time. This thing has been forming for a long time and Mr. Travers has made it clear that responsibility for this embraces the entire corporate institution, including the political level, going back to 1976.

In a nutshell, Mr. Kelly is saying there is collective responsibility on everybody going back to 1976.

When Mr. Travers appeared before the committee, he went to great lengths to tell us that everybody mentioned in or affected by the report viewed the part relevant to them. I was touched by the way Mr. Kelly put that point across to us. He felt the entire report had a bearing on his and the Department's role and he should have seen the report in its entirety. Given the depth of the report, which runs to 500 pages, would he have had time to read it? If Mr. Travers had given him the report and told him he had to read it overnight because the Tánaiste was waiting on it——

The report is only 180 pages.

The Tánaiste, who is the paymaster, commissioned the report and he who pays the piper calls the tune. It was, therefore, up to Mr. Travers to return it. Was there a discussion with Mr. Kelly about him having enough time to read the report?

No, I do not recollect any such discussion.

It is important to be present to hear Mr. Kelly's contribution. His elaboration on his story is telling. As Senator Feeney said, he who pays the piper calls the tune. However, is Mr. Travers calling the Tánaiste's tune?

I did not make that inference. The Tánaiste commissioned the report and Mr. Travers owed it to her to go back to her first with it.

Mr. Kelly mentioned third party evidence in the report and references to the folder with the Attorney General's advice going missing in January 2004. That was referred to the Minister's office. How did the file go missing?

No, I am not going there. I can only record the facts as I discovered them. It is not the first file or folder to go missing in Hawkins House. In the normal course of events, there would be some statistical incidence of items going missing. If I am being asked whether it is accidental, I honestly believe it is. I apply that comment to the administrative and political side of the Department. I do not believe anyone — I include everyone from the top to the bottom of the Department — had anything to gain by the non-issue of a request for legal advice. I believe its disappearance was an accident. I do not know where the folder ultimately ended up or what its fate was. I cannot believe it happened because of a deliberate act on someone's part.

Does Mr. Kelly believe its disappearance had anything to do with the Minister or his advisers?

I do not know if I can offer any further help on that matter.

Mr. Kelly referred to the lack of ongoing revenue in the Department of Health and Children. Was there a vested interest in ensuring this matter would not come to light, particularly in recent times, if it would mean a pay-back of billions of euro of taxpayers' money? Was there a vested interest in keeping it quiet?

All of the advice from the Department, in so far as it was discussed with anyone at political level, would always have been around solving the problem prospectively. I accept it was a mistaken judgment on our part. We were not thinking about retrospective exposure. That may sound extraordinary in the context of the certainty of the legal advice which was received ultimately. I can only describe the thinking process at the time. Just in case my recollection on this was faulty in some way, I have just checked with the two people at assistant secretary level who were closest to dealing with the matter during the period of 2004. Their view was the same, namely, that people were not thinking in terms of a major hit. Given what has transpired, that may sound somewhat naive, but it is the way people were thinking.

Mr. Kelly said his five-year relationship with the Minister, Deputy Martin, was a good one. Does he feel betrayed because of everything that has happened since? What type of relationship did he have with the Tánaiste and how does he feel about how things have transpired?

I am not trying to evade the question, but the chemistry between Secretaries General and Ministers comes down to a number of things, including mutual respect, mutual trust and people getting on with their respective roles. I was fortunate in the sense that for a period of five years that chemistry worked pretty well between myself and the Minister, Deputy Martin.

In the early stages of the Tánaiste's time in the Department of Health and Children, I had a constructive working relationship with her. I did not have any difficulties around that. Over the past ten years, I have worked at senior levels in the posts of assistant secretary, deputy secretary and Secretary General in two Departments. I worked with seven senior Ministers during that time. To my knowledge, none of them had a problem with my performance or how I dealt with them. The follow-on to the Travers examination, and some of the incidents leading up to it, was the first time I ran into trouble.

Mr. Kelly gave the impression that he did not think too much of advisers, particularly given the fact that things did not appear to function as they were purported to function as a conduit to the Minister and so on. What does Mr. Kelly think should happen in the future in regard to Ministers of State, and should they exist?

The Deputy has put words into my mouth that I did not utter today. I was careful to say — I say this with great sincerity — that I enjoyed a positive constructive working relationship with the advisers to the Minister, Deputy Martin. I enjoyed a similarly constructive relationship with the advisers to the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney. I did not indicate that they were not doing their job. They have a number of functions to perform. In my experience, they are very productive people. I would put value on having a team of advisers with the Minister. However, greater clarity is required. I am happy that question surfaced in the Travers report, because practices had developed which did not reflect the legislative boundaries within which advisers are appointed. I am happy that position will be rectified.

I will not get into a commentary about Ministers of State. There are significant roles for Ministers of State. In a large Department like the Department of Health and Children, with a very wide canvas for a senior Minister to try to cover every possible angle, there are genuine roles to be performed. I would prefer to leave it to the Ministers and Ministers of State to comment on that matter.

For how long can Mr. Kelly remain this evening?

I can remain until 7 p.m.

The Government acted like judge and jury in the treatment of Mr. Kelly. How does he think future Secretaries General will be treated if they fall foul of the system, or does the way in which he was treated create a precedent?

Before Mr. Kelly answers, we cannot create a precedent here. To be fair, we are not going to start looking into crystal balls at this hour of the evening.

Does the Chairman not want Mr. Kelly to answer the question?

Is the Deputy saying we should disregard members who have been waiting for hours to ask a question?

No, but it is a fair question which deserves a fair answer.

It is an important point, but I will not preface it by any comment on my position. Clearly a very serious view was taken of particular incidents along the way in the development of this outcome. However, I will not comment on that. I have my own perspective on it and on the process which was in place around it. In future, it is something that needs to be thought through. I hope it will not arise again. Human nature being what it is, mistakes happen all the time, therefore, we need to be prepared for it. I would prefer a mechanism which would involve some form of peer review. That is the process which is put in place for senior professionals in other contexts. It should entail some overall review of performance, not just zoning in on a particular issue.

On the point made by Senator Feeney that because the report was prepared for the Tánaiste and that she had a right to get the report before anyone else viewed it, I do not think the fact that the report was commissioned by the Tánaiste means natural justice would be denied to any participant in the report. The conflict of evidence that existed between people who contributed to the report should have been resolved by Mr. Travers. He should have put the conflicting evidence to the various parties and then adjudicated on that evidence. The integrity of the report has been damaged because that was not done.

I thank Mr. Kelly for his statement. With regard to the MAC meetings, who set the agendas and who prepared the minutes of previous meetings?

The agendas are set from items generated by the people in the Department. There would be a kind of circulation in advance of a meeting asking who wanted to put what item at MAC level on the agenda. The other part of the agenda would be generated by the CEOs of the health boards. There is a secretariat on the health board end and on the Department end and they link up. It is from that process the agenda is generated.

A similar situation exists with the minutes. A person from the Department would take notes at the meeting and write up the report. The reports were deliberately about action points and key points that had been discussed. It was not a verbatim report. They were deliberately kept quite short and to the point. They would then be circulated to the various parties at the meeting. That was done with the minutes of December 2003. In fact, one of the Minister's advisers would have offered to comment on the way various issues, including this one on eligibility, had been dealt with in the minutes of the meeting.

My reason for asking that question is that Mr. Kelly admitted bravely earlier that there was an administrative failure to follow up on the letter that was supposed to be sent to the Attorney General for advice. However, I notice from the minutes of the March and October MAC meetings that both refer to the ongoing situation and that it was mentioned that the Department had sought legal advice on the long-stay issue. Again, the minutes of the next meeting mentioned the concern of the CEOs regarding the legal advice they had got.

While there was an administrative failure within the Department, why when the matter was on the agenda, and there was a minute on it for the next MAC meeting, did this not prompt somebody to ask for the up-to-date position or what was the position on the legal advice? Would someone not then have realised the letter was never sent? Why did this not prompt that type of action?

Looking back, I ask the same question. However, I cannot give an informed answer because I do not know the answer. I do not want to repeat myself, but I think the white heat pressure under which people were working on the matters identified as important and that had to be done in 2004, distracted people from other equally important matters and that this particular matter, an item that had slipped, just did not occur to people.

With regard to the responses given at the two MAC meetings, the person who gave the response at the March meeting felt at that point that the letter was in process and that it had issued. There was no hard information to support that, but that was the feeling at the time. My instinct, and I do not have a clear recollection of the two discussions on this, is that these would have been very fleeting references to this particular item at those two meetings. I do not remember any substantive discussion about this item at the later meetings.

It was said earlier that Mr. Kelly and other people in the Department did not believe there was a retrospective nature to this, despite the legal advice that came later. In my opinion, if that was Mr. Kelly's belief and the belief of others in the Department, it would colour their judgment as to how urgent the position was because if there was no retrospective nature, there would not be a massive liability and it was not a big issue. If that was their view, why would this have been such an issue?

No, let me explain. A sum of €100 million in any particular year, as the Deputy knows from her experience with the health boards, is significant. If, for example, we take the year 2005, the development package in 2005 involves packages on disability, accident and emergency services and new medical cards, a total of €200 million. The difference between not having that €100 million and having it is that one can do a development package of €100 million or €200 million. Therefore, €100 million is a significant sum in any particular year.

It is my recollection of the discussion in December 2003 that people were exercised at that point about the levels of allocation and so on going into 2004. The fact that there was some risk attaching to the continuity of this €100 million would have exercised people's minds as much as the legal issues around it. The €100 million would have been regarded——

They thought it was significant, but not, obviously, the massive sums that later turned out to be the case.

No. The spectre of several billions was not something that ever came to mind.

May I go back briefly to what Mr. McLoughlin said yesterday which relates to when Mr. Kelly first became aware of the situation. Mr. Kelly has mentioned that it crystallised in his mind in December 2003. Mr. McLoughlin said he raised the issue with a senior Department official at a meeting on the health board service plan in February 2003. Was that at a level lower than Mr. Kelly or was he involved in the service plan meetings with Mr. McLoughlin in February 2003?

It is something I will check out. I cannot honestly say I was or was not. Normally what would have happened with the service plan meetings is they would be handled by the Deputy Secretary General, Tom Mooney. I have an idea that he may have been absent on sick leave in early 2003. It may well be that I took those meetings, but I do not have a clear memory of it.

Mr. McLoughlin said that was when he first raised the issue. He went on to say that Mr. Kelly agreed to hold a bilateral meeting with the board on the issue in March 2003, which would seem to indicate that he was at the earlier meeting and that he thought this was a significant issue and as a result agreed to hold this bilateral meeting. I know it is difficult to go back in time, but does he feel he had a fair amount of detail on the issue in March 2003?

Did Mr. McLoughlin say the bilateral meeting was with me?

His exact words were that Mr. Kelly agreed to hold a bilateral meeting with the board on the issue in March 2003. Whether that took place, I do not know.

I do not know the detail of that either. My understanding of this is that there was contact with the South Eastern Health Board and other health boards at principal officer level in the Department. I certainly do not have a recollection of being involved in a meeting with Mr. McLoughlin on this issue. It is something I can check out and if the Deputy wishes I will come back to her on it.

That would be great. I will just refer to page 73 of the Travers report. He says with regard to early 2003 when the legal advice from the South Eastern Health Board was raised, that he cannot understand the failure to take action in light of "the fact that the Department had already prepared since 2002 a draft Memorandum for Government and associated draft Heads of Bill for new legislation". What is the explanation for that?

Will I get the opportunity to ask my questions?

The Deputy may have the impression of having been left late. I am sorry. The alternative is for me to put names into a hat and draw them out or else do some time policing. To be fair, I have kept account of the time for every contribution today and have not stifled anybody's debate.

I appreciate that Mr. Kelly has to leave, but I am last on the list. If I put some questions in writing, would that be all right?

I will ask Mr. Kelly if he can give us ten more minutes, just to take a group of questions.

That is unfair to him. He must be somewhere else at 7.30 p.m.

Deputy Cooper-Flynn is in the middle of a question. I am not stonewalling for anybody.

I am happy to put my questions on paper.

I thank the Deputy. When Deputy Cooper-Flynn has finished, I ask that Senators Henry and Browne——

I am quite happy.

I will ask the Senators to put some follow-up questions to Mr. Kelly.

I am dropping all the time.

I am not dropping anyone.

I am going down the league table

No. We are losing time.

I am like Liverpool.

I will give everyone a chance.

I am trying to find out whether the bilateral meeting took place in 2003. It appeared from Mr. McLoughlin's evidence that the meeting took place in 2003, although I may have interpreted it incorrectly. It seems the Department maintained at the time that the charges were legal. That seems to have been the Department's position at the time. Mr. McLoughlin said he believes the legal advice related to a different matter. Mr. Kelly gave the committee information about the other legal advice earlier. I would like to find out whether the meetings took place. If they took place, there must have been a fairly detailed discussion of all the major issues going back to February or March of 2003.

I do not think there is any doubt about that. The Travers report makes it clear. I do not contest the facts outlined in the report, although I have not verified them independently. If Mr. Travers states that meetings took place, I will take it they did take place.

Was Mr. Kelly at them?

I am not saying I was at them. I have said I will clarify the matter for the Deputy, as she has asked me to do.

She asked me to clarify whether I was at the bilateral meeting. I do not believe I was.

I am more than satisfied with that.

I am interested in the woman who came forward to state that the file had been in the outer office. Mr. Kelly said she sent an e-mail to confirm that. Is she still working in the Department of Health and Children?

Were the other people who cannot recollect seeing the file there questioned by Mr. Travers, or by someone else? That is not covered in the Travers report. Did somebody else ask them about their recollection of seeing the report? Are those people still working in the same area?

I want to focus on the decision made in 2001 to give medical cards to those over the age of 70. Am I correct in assuming all new legislation is screened or vetted by the Office of the Attorney General? Should that office not have realised at that stage the implications of the legislation that granted medical cards to those over the age of 70? The Travers report states that the Department of Health and Children was not involved in the development of the proposal before the decision to introduce it was announced in the budget. Does Mr. Kelly believe that to be proper procedure? Should a Minister announce such an important decision without consulting the Department? We all know he did not consult doctors about it, which led to further difficulties.

Is it not the case that Ministers and ministerial advisers make an input when business plans are being compiled? Is it not fair to say they read such plans in advance? It is not true that they do not see such plans before they leave the Department. It is obvious that Ministers have an input in such matters.

Was the folder that was left in the outer office, or the Minister's office, left there in the absence of anybody, or was it actually handed to a person? Did that person leave it on their own table? What exactly happened? I am not familiar with the geography of Hawkins House. Was the file handed from one person to another person? Was it left on a table, with a view to it being handed to the Minister at a later stage? What exactly went on? It is certainly confusing for most people.

Senator Henry asked who questioned the other people in the Department. I do not know the answer to that question. I guess Mr. Travers spoke to them, but I do not know that. They may have submitted written statements to him. I do not know the answer to the question.

Does Mr. Kelly know to whom the relevant officials made the statement that they could not recollect seeing the file in the office in question?

I assume they made such a statement to Mr. Travers, but I do not know that. They are still working in the Department, although some of them are in different roles now.

Senator Browne asked about the genesis of the decision to grant medical cards to all persons over the age of 70. I bow to the advice given in that regard by the Comptroller and Auditor General in a different context, when the Committee of Public Accounts was examining some of the other implications of the fast-tracking of that decision. The Comptroller and Auditor General said the manner in which the decision was taken reflected a lack of proper planning. It certainly was not subject to the normal assessment of its implications that should take place when a decision is made to adopt a measure that incurs such a high cost. I concede that the decision brought to the surface many weaknesses in the Department's databases and in its management of the medical cards system. Some of the costs could have been better anticipated if the systems had been better. The Senator also asked about the business plan——

Did the Office of the Attorney General mention that the Department was opening a new vista by allowing for automatic eligibility? Did it point out that the decision meant the Department no longer would have discretion and it might have a knock-on effect on nursing home charges?

I can offer to investigate the matter. I am not conscious of any such advice. The relevant legal provision in that regard was included in a miscellaneous provisions Bill in 2001. The Department was slow to prepare the Bill because a number of issues were covered in it. The issue under discussion was probably one of the more straightforward issues involved. I do not recall the details, but I remember that we did not have much time to process and pass the legislation because of its complexity. I do not know whether the legal implications of the change in medical card eligibility were raised by the Office of the Attorney General, but I can check that and return to the Deputy.

It is certain that the business plan was circulated to the Minister and his advisers. As it was a public document, essentially, it was published on the Department's website.

I do not know the facts about the exact location of the folder, although I have read the statement that was made by the official who said she saw the folder in the Minister's office. She said that when she saw the folder, it was in the hands of an executive officer who works in the office, who asked her a question about the matter contained in the folder. She said in her statement that the executive officer wanted to know what was in the folder because he was about to bring it to the Minister. However, the executive officer involved in this incident does not have a clear recollection that corresponds with the female official's version. He said he remembers he had discussions with her, as he would have had with many other people who came to the office, but he does not recall the subject matter of the conversation.

Some confusion developed in this regard when the executive officer involved in the incident indicated in a statement — the Travers report refers to this as new information — that the only time when he was acting up in the absence of the private secretary was for a period in late February. He said the Minister was not present in the office for very long during that period. The executive officer's comments had the effect of throwing the female official's story, because if his claims are true, it is unlikely that the event she described in her e-mail would make much sense. My experience of the Minister's office has taught me that the executive officers in the office quite often assume the role of private secretary, when he or she is not present, even if they are not formally acting up. On such occasions, executive officers answer questions, etc., as a private secretary would do. The confusion that followed the executive officer's statement obscured the significance of the statement that was originally made in the female official's e-mail.

I would like to ask Mr. Kelly some more questions. If I write to him, can his replies be taken on board by the committee? Would Mr. Kelly mind answering such questions?

Will the Deputy give the questions to the committee's officials, to be forwarded to Mr. Kelly?

Yes, if Mr. Kelly does not mind.

Is that okay?

It would be preferable if such questions were routed through the official committee channels.

I have just said they will.

Absolutely.

I think Deputy Twomey's proposal is suitable.

The information Mr. Kelly has just given us is important. It highlights a weakness in the Travers report. I suggest the committee seek out the text of that e-mail. It is quite astonishing that it is so specific and that it is not dealt with any detail in the report.

There is no problem in seeking that.

The joint committee went into private session at 7.10 p.m. and adjourned at 7.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday, 21 April 2005.

Top
Share