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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Thursday, 19 May 2005

Travers Report: Presentations.

The committee normally meets in private session first but as the Tánaiste can be with us for only one hour I ask the committee to meet in public session and we will deal with other issues in private session afterwards. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Tánaiste to discuss the report on certain issues of management and administration in the Department of Health and Children associated with the practice of charges for persons in long-stay care in health board institutions and related matters. I invite members of the committee to participate in a question and answer session rather than the Tánaiste delivering her position at the start. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Tánaiste has been before the committee previously as have Mr. Travers and numerous other witnesses. We now invite questions to the Tánaiste following what we have heard to date. I wish to point out that we have allowed parties to come in together with questions as some people have indicated they need to leave soon.

I will be all right.

I will take Deputy Twomey——

I apologise but I must go to the Order of Business.

Everybody wants to go to the Order of Business so let us be quick. I will take three members together, Deputies Twomey and McManus and Senator Feeney. We will move as quickly as possible to maximise the hour.

: Did the Tánaiste receive advice from the Attorney General on the Health Act 2005 regarding the retrospective element in the legislation? Is she proposing to draft legislation to enable patients to be paid back and, if so, will we have to wait until October before seeing that legislation?

Yes, I received advice from the Attorney General on the legislation. All legislation is drafted by the parliamentary drafts-people in the Attorney General's office and is overseen by the Attorney General himself. The Attorney General sits at Cabinet meetings when proposed legislation is discussed.

I would love to have the legislation ready before the summer recess. Realistically, however, it will probably be autumn before it is finalised because we intend to employ outside expertise to design the scheme so that repayments can be made as quickly as possible. That must go through the public tender process and, given that the Dáil goes into recess in July, it will be autumn before the legislation is ready.

To go back to the Health Act 2005, the Tánaiste received advice from the Attorney General but the legislation was rejected by the Supreme Court. Did the Attorney General express any concerns regarding the retrospective element of the legislation, which is the section that the Supreme Court rejected?

The Deputy is referring to the legislation introduced in December 2004. Obviously the Government could not proceed with legislation if the Attorney General felt it was not sound.

However, to be fair, the legislation did not fall on the retrospective issue because there is other retrospective legislation on the Statute Book that has stood the test of time from a constitutional perspective. The legislation fell on the issue of property rights. The Supreme Court stated, if my memory is correct, that the State could interfere with the property rights of an individual only if the consequences of not doing so were so severe as to cause an imbalance in the public finances. The court maintained that the sum of money involved — which at that time was estimated to be €500 million or €600 million — would not cause an imbalance in the public finances, given the state of the economy, and therefore the State could not retrospectively withdraw property rights from citizens. It was not the retrospective element of the legislation, under Article 15 of the Constitution, that was found to be unconstitutional, but the property rights element.

The advice I received on the retrospective aspect of the legislation, when I was first shown it, was that the number of people and amount of money involved would have made retrospection very difficult. Was the Minister advised on that issue?

Does the Deputy mean difficult from a legal or an administrative point of view?

I mean difficult from a legal point of view.

No. The Supreme Court did not hold that retrospective action cannot be taken. It said that the State cannot withdraw a person's property rights retrospectively, except where failing to do so would cause an imbalance in the public finances. The court made reference to the sum of €500 million or €600 million, which was the estimated cost of repayments, and argued that it was not a significant sum, given the wealth of the country. The court went on to refer to the Statute of Limitations, which is why we have decided to limit the repayments and use that statute against estates.

The Supreme Court decision does not mean the use of the Statute of Limitations is written in stone. The court was unclear on that issue.

That is true. However, the court did mention the statute in its judgment and I am certain this issue will be tested in court, which is why we must proceed carefully. I have no doubt there will be legal challenges to the repayment scheme on behalf of estates.

Ultimately, it is the Supreme Court that decides on the constitutionality of legislation; it is not a matter for the Oireachtas. The Government must do its best and take the best available advice on issues. The Attorney General consulted with outside expertise when drafting this legislation. Therefore, we have the benefit of his office and some of the leading counsel in the State regarding the best way forward.

Does the Tánaiste feel it is most likely that she will have to test the legislation?

No, not that I will have to test it. That would be a matter for the President, if she were to decide to refer it to the Supreme Court. However, I have no doubt where, for example, the repayment to an estate is limited to the six year period, a beneficiary to an estate may decide to challenge that. It only takes one individual to challenge the constitutionality of legislation, if it is not referred to the Supreme Court by the President. It may well be the case that the legislation will be tested and challenged and perhaps ultimately decided on by the Supreme Court. In fact, that is the case with every piece of legislation passed in the Oireachtas. The constitutionality of legislation is ultimately determined by the Supreme Court.

Did the Tánaiste read the advice of the Attorney General, requested by the committee, on past legislation that was found to be contentious?

Yes, I have read that advice.

Did the Tánaiste see any of the present difficulties showing up in that advice?

I do not understand the question. Obviously the advice relates to matters other than the repayment of the charges. It relates to issues concerning upcoming cases, one of which was mentioned in court several weeks ago, the Cronin case. The advice spans many issues. Some of it touches on the repayment issue, in that it is about charges for long-term care in the public and private sector.

We will vigorously defend those cases because we believe most reasonable people accept it is not possible, nor indeed fair, that people should receive long-term care free of charge, simply by virtue of their age. The country could not afford it and if it was decided to do that, it would be at the expense of many other health and welfare services.

Mr. Travers finds in his report that Ministers did not probe the issue enough. Does the Tánaiste think that she did not probe enough and is now open to the criticism of having double standards? I am referring specifically to the information from Ms Eileen Duffy, where she wrote an e-mail that clearly showed the relevant folder had been brought to the Minister's outer office and that there had been a discussion with the man who is now the Tánaiste's acting private secretary. What did the Tánaiste do to assess exactly what had happened before firing Mr. Michael Kelly? It seems to the outsider that she concentrated on blaming a civil servant while protecting one of her own political colleagues.

The Tánaiste stated in March that many Ministers were kept in the dark on the issue. Does she not accept that, as a result of the work of this committee, her statement to the Dáil is simply untrue? The Minister for Health and Children was given information by way of a briefing document, which he did not read. The two Ministers of State at the Department were given the same briefing document, the Taoiseach was informed and advisers were given information that they did not bother to read. The statement that Ministers were kept in the dark is now unsustainable and the Tánaiste might reconsider it in that light.

The Tánaiste cancelled briefings with the Secretary General when she took over the Department. Why did she believe that was the correct course of action? The Secretary General had briefings set up for the Tánaiste, which she cancelled.

The Tánaiste stated in the Dáil that she had to introduce legislation speedily to enable charges to be levied on people in nursing homes. She had the support of the Opposition regarding the principle, but the regulations have not been brought in as yet. There was speed then and now there is delay, which appears to be extending into autumn. What is the meaning of that and what costs to the State are involved, arising from that delay?

Members should try to refrain from naming people who are not committee members, if at all possible, particularly civil servants.

I am sorry. I accept that.

The Government set up the Travers process and the report drew its own conclusions on where the failings mostly lay. I will not second guess the report of a highly respected former civil servant, who did a very thorough job.

I became Minister for Health and Children on 29 September 2004. I had a long briefing session with the Secretary General on 30 September. On that same day, I received a brief from every member of the management team of the Department, which I read over that weekend. On the following Monday, I had a long briefing session with my Ministers of State and the entire management team of the Department, where we teased out many issues. At no stage was the long-stay charging issue mentioned to me.

Three weeks later I sought the advice of the Attorney General on the matter, when it was raised in the Dáil by Deputy Kenny. The departmental view was that this could be dealt with by way of eligibility status and I said that we should get the advice of the Attorney General. That was within three weeks of the briefing sessions I had in the Department. If any meetings were cancelled, it was because other more pressing business had arisen. Is it being suggested that, despite having been briefed by the Secretary General over the course of a morning and by the management team over the course of an afternoon, I might have been informed had a further meeting been held? When this issue arose in December, I asked the Secretary General to prepare a brief for the Cabinet. This was prepared and given to me on 13 December and is included in the Travers report. The Secretary General had time to consider this brief on which he consulted his Department but he never told the Government that a letter had been prepared and sent to him to be forwarded to the Attorney General. The Government was given a seriously inaccurate report.

I established the Travers inquiry because the brief was inaccurate, as I discovered the night before we came to the Dáil to deal with the legislation. The Secretary General prepared a report to inform me of events within the Department. I was not informed, for example, that whenever there was a challenge, the health boards were advised by the Department to acquiese. Significantly, the report did not refer to a brief prepared and sent to the Secretary General to be forwarded to the Attorney General. I was not told the truth on 13 December.

Prior to 27 October when I sought the Attorney General's legal advice on my own initiative somebody might have informed me of matters not raised on 13 December. On 18 October, after I became Minister of Health and Children, a follow up meeting took place between the management team of the Department and the CEOs to the meetings helds in March and the previous December. Mr. Kelly presided at that meeting, at which it was noted legal options were being explored. That was not true. Legal options were not being explored.

I was not informed in a written report to the Government. In our system of democracy to mislead or to neglect to inform the Government of facts which were at Mr. Kelly's disposal and well known within the Department is a serious matter. The Travers report confirmed a view at which I had arrived when I established the inquiry in December. Mr. Travers inquired into events which had transpired before the Attorney General's advice was sought. He was not asked to examine the nature and accuracy of the report but to investigate what had happened on the charges issue.

Within one month of becoming Minister I acted on this issue which had been ongoing for the previous 29 years. The Secretary General's report noted the belief the matter was legally defensible. However, it could not have been accepted as legally defensible because whenever challenges were made, the instruction was to refrain from mounting a defence.

Last week I explained to the Dáil that I did not want to introduce a new system of charges. It has come to light that some in the mental health and psychiatric areas who have not been charged in the past may, upon the introduction of this legislation, have new or higher charges imposed. This issue is delaying the regulations as we want to protect the existing charge base. I have, therefore, asked the Department to separate the two issues by dealing with the elderly and the issue of long-term care places and then reflect on the issues surrounding people with psychiatric illnesses in order to ensure a new charge is not imposed. That would be unfair and is not the intention of the legislation.

Mr. Kelly has lost his job and everybody understands he accepts responsibility. Considering the way in which the Tánaiste responded to my questions is she not concerned about her own reputation? Ministers were given the information. Political accountability is required under the Public Service Management Act 1997. The report of the Ombudsman on nursing home subventions notes: "As a general rule of thumb, accountability should apply to those actions of which the Minister was aware, or of which the Minister as head of the Department could reasonably be expected to have been aware, or to have made himself or herself aware." The Tánaiste's reputation is in danger due to her obsession with a civil servant and her refusal to consider that her Cabinet colleague was negligent with regard to his responsibility.

The Deputy made these allegations when I attended the joint committee at the time of publication of the Travers report, even though she had not read it. I said on that occasion that the report should be read and reflected upon. Mr. Travers found no evidence that any Minister had ever been appropriately briefed.

Mr. Travers deliberately withheld information from that report.

That is a serious allegation which beggars belief.

I ask Deputy McManus how she established that fact.

It is clear from the e-mail sent to him that information should have been placed in the public arena but was not.

Did Deputy McManus read the Travers report? I have reflected on this issue for quite some time. In paragraph 4.54 an e-mail is not specifically mentioned but the information in question is referred to. Mr. Kelly is quoted on page 51 as referring to the information contained in the e-mail, although he does not mention the e-mail specifically.

I have no problem with the Chairman's point that the Travers report refers to this dispute.

We have dealt with the report as thoroughly as possible. From the outset we have been non-political. This grenade is thrown as we are about to prepare our report.

It is not a grenade.

I have not objected previously——

I accept that.

——but have reached the stage where I do want to see the Travers report being rubbished.

The Chairman has been fair but Mr. Travers neglected to make public information which ought to have been released. I will make that point to him. There has been a focus on a civil servant which has resulted in the issue of political accountability being left aside. The Tánaiste has a reputation for being straight but her reputation is being damaged as a consequence of e-mail evidence in the public arena which suggests Ministers were informed. However, she seems to persist in excluding the issue of political accountability.

I do not want to stray from the Deputy's question and the Tánaiste does not need my explanation because she is more than capable but this is a question for Mr. Travers who will be here this afternoon.

On page 51 of the Travers report Mr. Kelly's statement makes it clear that what Deputy McManus calls new evidence forms part of the report.

I also wish to raise the issue of Mr. Kelly's treatment. I have arguments to make in this regard.

We will not begin a debate but will confine ourselves to questions.

Does the Tánaiste agree that the file tracking system in place in the Department which we visited yesterday was slipshod? Is she satisfied that a better system has been put in place?

I wish to return to the matter of the file given to the person who is now the Tánaiste's private secretary. I understand the civil servant in question has a clear recollection of the matter. While he has said he cannot recall the event in detail, does the Tánaiste agree there is a greater degree of certainty on his part? That is why this evidence is crucial. In terms of us making a judgment on that, one would have to believe the person who has the greater recollection and the greater certainty.

I welcome the Tánaiste and thank her for coming here to give of her time. She may have answered this in her reply to Deputy McManus's question. Writing in last Saturday's The Irish Times, Drapier, whose identity is clear for once, talks about her “vindictive sacking” of Mr. Kelly. Can she clarify why she found it necessary to relieve the former Secretary General of his post? Second, does she believe with the benefit of hindsight that the overcharging of the over-70s was significant enough to be brought to her attention as soon as she took over as Minister for Health and Children? If it was not brought to her attention in September should it not have been brought to her attention at the MAC CEO meeting of 18 October chaired by the former Secretary General, without it having to wait for a parliamentary question from a member of Fine Gael?

On that point am I right that the Tánaiste's annoyance is based on the fact that Mr. Kelly wittingly withheld information and that, in their meeting the day after her appointment, when she was preparing a memo for Cabinet, he did not brief her on the letter for the Attorney General? I believe that is the key issue in this report.

As I told Mr. Kelly when I gave him a copy of the Travers report — he has since said this to the committee — I came to my conclusion because the report confirmed what I already knew, that a seriously inaccurate report was prepared for me and for the Cabinet.

Information was wittingly withheld?

Yes. That is my strong view.

For what purpose?

I do not know and I will not ascribe motives to people. In March 2004 Mr. Kelly presided over a meeting where the minutes noted that the legal advice of the Attorney General had been sought. That was untrue. On 18 October 2004 he presided over a meeting that reported that legal options were being explored. Untrue. On 13 December he gave me a report that did not tell me that a letter had been sent to him to send to the Attorney General. It might be of interest to people to know how I found out about the letter. I got the report from Mr. Kelly for the Cabinet at around 10 p.m. or 10.30 p.m. on Monday, 12 December, the day before the Cabinet meeting. I was at a private function in Dublin to which Mr. Kelly came because he had not completed the report before I left the office that evening. I read the report early the next morning and gave a copy to all my colleagues. I was preparing them for the Dáil debate on Thursday and I reflected on its contents to draw on it for my speech in the Dáil debate on the Thursday. I noted that it had been agreed to set up a group in the Department to look at the issue. I asked my adviser to find out if that group ever actually met and he confirmed that it had. I asked what it had come up with and was told that a letter had been drafted to be signed by the Secretary General. I asked what had happened to that and that was when I challenged Mr. Kelly on why I was not told this and asked why was it not in the report. It was for this reason I set up the Travers inquiry. I believed at that time that I had not been given the full picture in this report and I regard that as a serious matter for public administration and government in a democracy. That is the reason I came to the conclusion I did. It is not a question of making anyone a scapegoat for 29 years of failure, nor would I want to do that. That would be totally unfair and very wrong. I hope it is recognised by those more fair-minded than Deputy McManus that in my dealings with civil servants I am fair, reasonable and honourable.

And the same with politicians.

And the same with politicians, yes.

The Minister gets off the hook.

Rather than damage Mr. Kelly's reputation, which the Tánaiste has been accused of, it appears that on four separate occasions a most important report that has exposed the State to a cost of many millions of euro lacked factual information, even though a report was commissioned. The accusation all through the hearing has been that we have been unfair to public servants.

No. That is not the case.

We are saying that there has to be political responsibility as well.

The civil servant has accepted responsibility. There is no dispute.

Mr. Travers has made the point that politicians should have probed more. No one knows the extent of the probing.

The Minister says she was kept in the dark and that is simply not true.

The most important point for us, because the steer has been that we have tried to scapegoat Mr. Kelly——

That is not true.

The reality is that the person responsible within the public service did not do his job.

Chairman, we are probing and that is why we have put questions to the Tánaiste, which we would like answered now.

I might just draw, for the purposes of fair debate, on an observation made by the former Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Senator Maurice Hayes when writing about this matter where he says; "given that Mr. Travers pointed the finger so inexorably at administrative errors at official level it is not surprising, if unfortunate and tragic, that the individual concerned...and so on." It was alleged here that if I had not cancelled a briefing I would have been told about this. Why, then, did I not get the full picture on 13 December when I got a report from Mr. Kelly many weeks after I had sought the legal advice? Why, if I was going to be told the truth between 4 and 5 October and 27 October was I still not being told the truth on 13 December? The Attorney General's advice was sought because Deputy Kenny raised the matter in the Dáil. I decided as a matter of course to get the Attorney General's advice. Why take a chance with legal advice when we know the price we pay when we get it wrong? The Attorney General is there to give Ministers advice. I had many briefings with Mr. Kelly similar to the one in the Gresham Hotel between 30 September and 27 October and there was never a whisper that this major issue was under the surface or that there existed a file and a letter the same as the one I sent on 27 October seeking the advice. It had been sitting there for eight months. Why it was not acted upon is just amazing, incredible. Mr. Travers comes to the conclusion to which he comes and I have total respect for him. He is a man of integrity and those who know him and have worked with him and who are fair-minded could not but admire the form of the report.

Deputy Gormley asked me about the Department and I know members were there yesterday. We have a new Secretary General who has set up a new division to deal with the elderly and eligibility issues. He is reorganising the management team in the Department. We hope to move from Hawkins House and those that were there yesterday will have seen that it is not an appropriate facility for a modern Civil Service. In that context we need to get outside advice regarding modern technology that would enable us to track issues in a better way than the file based system we have at present. On my desk at the moment there must be 50 or 60 files. It is not true that my current private secretary is the person referred to. The person does work in my office and is the number two there but I will not decide that one is right and another is wrong or value one person's view higher than another's.

One person is more certain than the other, clearly.

We set up a process to inquire into this and it is only fair to accept its outcome and the judgment of the person who was asked to carry it out. Mr. Travers is coming later.

One person has a very clear recollection of it and the other does not. Surely that tells the Tánaiste something, does it not?

It is a matter for the Deputy to talk to the persons involved.

We have talked to some of them but we cannot talk to everyone.

The Deputy should talk to whomever he feels it is appropriate to talk to.

Does that include the Ceann Comhairle?

The Deputy knows the established precedent on that.

The precedent is that he can come before this committee.

It is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle and the advice that he gets.

But your advice would be that he should come forward.

Maybe Deputy Howlin should come too.

Of course. He has said he will come forward.

In his strategy he refers to the need to legislate here.

I asked the Tánaiste about the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy O'Hanlon. What does she think?

It is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle and the advice available to him. It is not a matter for me and the Deputy knows that.

Why does the Deputy want the Ceann Comhairle to attend?

When he was Minister for Health, the Government abandoned a decision to deal with this issue, which John Boland had brought to Cabinet.

We have all noted the systematic deficiencies within the Department of Health and Children, have we not?

If that Government had dealt with it there would not be a problem now.

We are talking about 1987.

If we work within our terms of reference and I accept the Deputy's point, surely that means we must include everyone who was involved, Secretaries General and Ministers.

If Deputy O'Hanlon comes before the committee I have no problem with any other Ministers coming, but he is the crucial one.

The present Ceann Comhairle was in office from March 1987 to November 1991. What about previous Ministers? Brendan Corish was Minister in 1976 when this all started.

It might be difficult to get Brendan Corish.

Then there is Mr. Haughey, Deputy Woods, Eileen Desmond and Barry Desmond. Why are we not bringing those people in?

Certain dates are key.

We do not want to delay the Tánaiste.

We are going to be here until next year.

We have 20 more minutes with the Tánaiste so we will park the matter for the time being. We will discuss afterwards who to invite before the committee.

Is the Tánaiste satisfied that the officials in the Department of Health and Children have released to the committee all files and documents relating to illegal nursing home charges that may have been compiled in the Department in the last four years?

I certainly hope so. The remit of the Travers inquiry was to obtain all relevant documents to produce a report on what took place. What Mr. Travers was doing was assembling a paper trail on what did or did not happen. I assume all documents were given to the inquiry or to this committee, other than anything that had to be withheld because of legal advice of the Attorney General.

Could the Tánaiste ensure when she goes back to the Department of Health and Children that all documents have been released to this committee and not just to Mr Travers? If any have been withheld from the committee, could she say why?

The only document of which I am aware is the legal advice to the South Eastern Health Board, but I will certainly speak to the Secretary General to confirm that everything has been made available to the committee and the Travers inquiry, as it should have been. Is the Deputy talking about a specific document?

I would like the Tánaiste to check when she goes back to the Department.

When the Tánaiste became Minister for Health and Children on 29 September, she had her first briefing with the then Secretary General on the following day. There was no mention of the impending problem at that briefing. She sought legal advice from the Attorney General on 27 October further to the issue being raised by Deputy Kenny. A Government briefing note was prepared on 13 December. At any stage during that three-month period did the Secretary General raise this issue with the Tánaiste in any form of briefing and, if not, would she have expected him or his officials to have done so?

I went to the Department on the morning of 30 September for a long briefing from Mr. Kelly and he presented me with a brief from all the management team on its respective areas of responsibility. I read the notes over that weekend as well as reading the health strategy. I remember having a pile of books on my kitchen table over Saturday and Sunday as I tried to read my way into the job. On the Monday I and my advisers had a fairly long afternoon session with the management team and the Ministers of State. There were some short presentations and we had a question and answer session. I kept a copy of the notes I took and have checked them and reflected on them many times. This issue was never mentioned.

Then it was raised in the Dáil and I asked for legal advice, as I have said. When I received the legal advice from the Attorney General, the bombshell letter as I referred to it, I had a meeting with Mr. Kelly and others and told him he would have to produce a report for the Government. I could see that as a consequence we would have to legislate rapidly to protect the money we were raising. That was the report of 13 December and it was grossly inaccurate. That was 13 December and I am supposed to accept that had I not cancelled a certain meeting between 3 October and 27 October I would have been told something I was not even being told on 13 December. It is extraordinary because the report states that the practice continued in the bona fide belief that it was legally defensible. Nobody could have had that belief because all the legal advice was to the contrary. I find it particularly objectionable that people who had the means to do so challenged the charges and they were dropped whereas somebody who was unable to get a lawyer to challenge them continued to pay. How any Department could preside over such an injustice for 29 years is quite incredible.

That is the reason I established the Travers inquiry. No one was calling on me to establish an inquiry, although I am sure it would have been inevitable following the Supreme Court decision. When I became aware that the departmental group had met and in January, a month after the 16 December meeting, decided to prepare a memorandum and draft a letter for the Attorney General which had not been acted upon, I could not believe it. I then became aware that Mr. Kelly had chaired a meeting in March which stated that legal advice had been sought, which was untrue, and one in October when it was stated that legal options were being examined, which was also untrue. Is anybody seriously saying that a Minister should not be concerned about that? Would any of the committee members work in an environment where they could not trust what they were being told?

One has to act on advice and the financial consequences of this are serious, with at least €1 billion involved. I had to take action but tried to do so in a fair way. I did not take action until the Travers process had commenced. I was very tempted to take action on 15 and 16 December when I became aware that I was not given all the information in the report of 13 December but refrained until I had completed an objective inquiry into the matter. It was as a result of that inquiry that these grossly inaccurate minutes came to light. I accept that everybody makes mistakes — to err is human — but this is about withholding readily available information from a report for Government as it prepares to make an important decision.

The Tánaiste made the point that the South Eastern Health Board made queries regarding the illegality of charges and that the advice to it and to other health boards was to drop them. Am I right that those questions were dealt with by the Secretary General and his Department rather than the political arm, meaning that the advice given was not made known to Ministers?

The briefing document was given to the Ministers.

Queries from the various health boards to the Department of Health and Children went specifically to officials. To my mind that amounts to keeping Ministers in the dark.

The Ministers were given the information. They did not read it. The one Minister who did read it did nothing about it. That is the issue this Minister is refusing to deal with.

On the evening of the MAC meeting, it appears at number four on the agenda.

That is normal. What do you think these documents are for?

We are talking about considerable exposure and it is at number four on the agenda. In any event, I must remain impartial.

The 16 December meeting in the Gresham Hotel made the right decision, namely, to get the Attorney General's advice. The group was established and acted very speedily and efficiently under an Assistant Secretary of the Department and Mr. Hardy. It acted absolutely properly, drafting a memo and a letter, which is the normal way that things are done. Those went to the Secretary General, I believe on 27 January. That was all in order. The tragedy is that the letter was not sent.

In my experience of other Departments, the Secretary General and officials never came to me to ask whether they should go to the Attorney General for advice. I would assume that they would get it and pass it on to the Minister, so that, when he or she was making the decision, it would be available. I have spoken to other colleagues, and I have never known a system where one asks the Minister whether one should seek advice in one's role as accounting officer. It is one's duty to ensure that one gets the right advice to protect the accountability role that one has. That is why this whole thing is so extraordinary. I do not know why we could not be told all that.

If I had been told that such a thing had happened on 13 December and that the letter had not been issued for some reason to do with human error, we would be discussing a very different situation. If the full facts had been included in that report for December, things would be very different.

That is the basis of Mr. Kelly's move sideways.

Absolutely. It would be grossly unfair for today's civil servants, either the Secretary General or anyone else, to carry the can for 29 years of error in this matter. It would also be totally unfair and unreasonable of any Minister to expect that. It is not because this was not acted on for 29 years. It is only because the truth was not included in that report.

Perhaps I might follow up something the Tánaiste said that I found interesting. She said that, in her experience, if the Secretary General of a Department were seeking legal advice, he or she would not normally inform the Minister first but would go straight to the Office of the Attorney General. The Tánaiste said that the experience of other Ministers confirmed that.

It was certainly my experience in my last job, and I understand that it is the norm. The Secretary General of a Department is the accounting officer and has great responsibilities. Obviously, any such person, if he or she advising a Minister or any Department, would wish to know the legal advice. Every Minister must be concerned about the legal advice, since we have a responsibility above all else to protect the resources available to the taxpayer. Legal advice is sought as a matter of routine. Sometimes things do not proceed since they are legally flawed. At other times, things change fairly radically. Seeking legal advice is in many cases a preliminary step. One would certainly imagine that, if a great many legal issues were being raised over the years about the charges and people were being told to drop the matter and not to challenge the case, at some point someone would have suggested finding out what the Attorney General thought.

Perhaps I might follow on from Deputy Devins.

We must bring people in who have not yet asked questions, such as Senator Browne, Deputy Cowley and Deputy Fiona O'Malley. Senator Feeney can follow them.

Has the Chairman forgotten about me?

I apologise for omitting the Senator's name.

The Tánaiste's main problem with Mr. Kelly was that he did not brief her. Might the same point not also be made about the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, who was also in the Department of Health and Children? He had read the briefing document and had realised the possible implications straight away. Did he ever discuss it with her? If Mr. Kelly was "fired" because he did not give the Minister the full facts or brief her properly, could she not use exactly the same criteria to question whether the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, should have been fired? After all, he is one of her eight party colleagues. He is also a Minister of State in her Department, and she is his party leader. He knew about it and it is incredible that he never discussed it with her. She could also include the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, in his former role as Attorney General. If he was aware of the charges, why did no discussion take place, and why was no briefing given? There are genuine questions.

I would also like to ask the Tánaiste about her own role in the affair. She is unique among Ministers for Health, being the first who got definitive legal advice from the Attorney General on this issue. No other Minister for Health did so, yet she still introduced flawed legislation, quite apart from the initial offer of €2,000 to those affected, which was then rejected by the Supreme Court. Every Opposition party had pointed out that there were difficulties with the legislation in late December, and it ended up being rejected by the Supreme Court, with the President refusing to sign it into law five days ahead of schedule.

I wish to ask about the role of the Civil Service. The main impression that I get from the Government parties, as well as Ministers and the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, is that the Civil Service is there to hold their hands. My impression is that a Minister is appointed because he or she has ability and something extra to offer. They do not need their hands held. A great deal of blame has been pinned on Mr. Kelly, but the Ministers were aware of the issue.

The former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, should have followed it up. He was aware that the Attorney General's advice was being sought on it. It was that serious. Neither he nor his advisers ever inquired regarding what was happening on it. In fairness, if the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, had been there, I am sure she would have followed up the matter by asking whether the Attorney General's advice had been received. I could almost guarantee that she would have done so, knowing her political record. It is incredible that the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, did not ask that question at subsequent meetings. Does the Tánaiste agree with his statement to Deputy McManus in this committee that he accepted no responsibility whatsoever for the affair? In her last few points, the Tánaiste was clearly indicating that people had questions to answer politically. Deputy Martin was Minister for Health and Children for five years.

We await figures for the number of medical card-holders over 70 before 2001 and the number after that year. That was the key date when the Minister introduced free medical cards for the over-70s. That was the catalyst and should really have brought the issue to the surface again, as happened in 1987 and 1976. Does the Tánaiste accept Deputy Martin's words when he says that he has no responsibility whatsoever on the issue?

Perhaps we might also go into that. At the MAC meeting in March 2004, did the public servants reiterate the fact that the advice was being sought, even though it was not? Is that not important?

It is important because the civil servants thought that the file was in the Minister's office.

We must track back for a second.

Why would it be in the Minister's office? The report states that the civil servants made the assumption that the file was in the Minister's office and under the control of the Minister. There is no need for it to be in the Minister's office.

There are many more people to join the questions.

We saw the outer office.

I was at the Department yesterday and was very much struck by the fact that so many staff were around, particularly when I went into the Secretary General's office. There was a member of staff in the ante-room. Afterwards I went into the Tánaiste's office, which was, of course, formerly that of Deputy Martin. There was a plethora of people there. There must have been 16 secretaries there, or at least 12.

Seven or eight.

Like everything else in this committee, it is being exaggerated to the power of two.

Perhaps there were only eight, and I counted another eight in the Secretary General's office. That is a great many people, and I wondered whether they were doing constituency work, but of course they were not, since there is another office for that. I realise that the Minister for Health and Children is a very busy person. This is my point. Someone must be right and someone wrong. Mr. Travers would say that it was really the fault of the Department of Health and Children and that there was no political responsibility. However, Mr. Kelly has gone. He was not demoted but sidelined, and officials are still in the Department who were serving under Mr. Kelly.

There are two issues. If the Minister received the file, that does not say too much about the Minister. Mr. Kelly was very clear that he had briefed the Minister. I am sure that he was used to briefing people. He said that he briefed the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, on this issue in the Gresham Hotel before the meeting. Subsequently, at the second MAC meeting, he briefed him again.

Perhaps the Tánaiste might be able to clear this up. This matter was brought up over many years. It was in the health strategy, which addressed it. It was alluded to indirectly in the Ombudsman's report. The South Eastern Health Board had sought legal advice. Health boards were being told that, if anyone was talking about it, they should simply deal with them. If that was not an admission that the charges were indefensible, I do not know what else it was. My point is that it would have been clear to a blind man that something was going on here.

If we accept the Travers report, what function does the Minister for Health and Children have? As far as I can see, there is none. If one believes Mr. Travers, this is a total "Yes, Minister" situation. The Department is still there, and the Tánaiste is now the Minister. When she leaves, another Minister will take over and the same situation will obtain. The Department did not know how many people in the country were over 70, and because of that no one knew what the bill to provide them with medical cards would be.

If one assumes that Mr. Travers was wrong, and that he who pays the piper calls the tune——

Is there a question?

Was there not a revenue implication? Was there not a vested interest in the Department? If the Minister did not know about this, there is no point in Ministers being there at all. We may as well let the Department get on with it alone.

I seek a motive in all such things. That motive was not to uncover something very unpleasant, a time bomb waiting to explode. Given the bill of €1 billion, people surely recognise that. The legal advice pointed it out. It was obvious that this was going to happen and I cannot believe that the Ministers did not know about it. I cannot accept that there is no political responsibility. Mr. Kelly should not have his head in the noose because of this. There were three versions of his statement in the Travers report. To me, that smacks of some kind of witch hunt. I would like to question Mr. Travers.

Mr. Travers did not see it as such. I see the Deputy's line of argument as a witch hunt. It all depends on how we read the report.

Let us take it as given that Mr. Travers is right. In that case, there is total and utter incompetence in the Department of Health and Children.

Is that not what our terms of reference are about? The Deputy is saying that everything has remained the same and that the Department is still there, with Ministers coming and going. Our task is to ensure that this does not happen again. There are many recommendations in the Travers report, but we have not even got around to dealing with them.

The bottom line is that there is a precedent. The Tánaiste has acted to fire Mr. Kelly, and that is a precedent for the future.

She has outlined the reasons. Therefore, this will not arise again.

It should be very clear that it is unacceptable that the situation should be so. If something of this sort goes wrong, the head man should lose his head; there is an old saying that the captain should go down with his ship. Surely the ultimate responsibility lies with the Minister. The Department should shoulder a great deal of blame, since memoranda were not sent through to the Secretary General, there was no follow-up, and a great deal was based on assumptions. People assumed that the file was being dealt with, although it was not.

Are we not asking questions, Chairman?

If this had been going on for so long, how can the Minister argue that her predecessor, Deputy Martin, could not have known about it and should not have dealt with it? At a minimum, he did not read his briefs. Surely he must bear a great deal of responsibility. Since Mr. Kelly paid with his job, why should the Tánaiste's predecessor as Minister not also do so?

Because Mr. Kelly admitted when he was here that it had fallen off his radar. It had been important, but was no longer seen as such.

Has the Tánaiste found in her experience in the Department that parliamentary questions serve to highlight issues such as policy questions and shortcomings relevant to the remit of the Minister? I ask because there were copious parliamentary questions on this issue. Would that in itself not lead to a re-examination? Parliamentary questions would be taken seriously. Elected representatives raise issues brought to them by the public. Therefore, the Secretary General might expect to be aware that the issue was a vibrant one. How relevant are such questions to the business agenda of a Department?

We either accept what Mr. Travers said or we do not. All sides agree that he is a very reputable individual and extremely fair in all his dealings. This is quite clear to me.

I will refer once more to a question that I posed to everyone who came to address the committee. In my 23 years on a health board — the same one on which the Chairman sat — this matter never raised its head. It never found its way on to the clár of the annual conference of the association of health boards. Mr. Travers clearly said that the failure was systemic. Given that the Tánaiste has established the Secretary General's failure to brief her appropriately regarding the matter, what explanation did Mr. Kelly give for not coming up with the information that should have been put in her hands if it was so important? If that information had been in his possession for quite some time, why, on several occasions, did he fail to grasp the opportunity of briefing her — and her predecessor? What explanation did he give?

When Mr. Kelly attended, he told the committee that the Tánaiste had asked him to write a report for the Cabinet meeting on 14 of that month. He talked about her telling him that the report should seek to explain rather than blame — a short report rather than a lengthy one. He said that it was to be a "no-blame game". When the report was published, he said he felt that it had left him open and that he should have sought more time. I am reading from notes that I took on the day, since I await the transcript. If he feels that he was hard done by because of that, is there anything that he might have written in that report had he been given more time? He told us that he had worked on the report over the weekend and had to have it ready for the Tánaiste by the Monday evening. Is there any way, if he had been given more time, that he might have remembered to have told the Tánaiste of the crucial letter to the Attorney General that started all this?

I will start with the last question from Senator Feeney. Yes, I asked Mr. Kelly to prepare a report over the weekend for the Cabinet on the Tuesday. I told him that I wanted a factual report. It was certainly not to be a "blame game" report. I simply wanted to know how the matter had arisen in such a way and why advice had never been sought.

When Mr. Kelly was preparing the report, he had available to him the civil servants in the line division who had prepared the memorandum and had drafted the letter for the Attorney General. The information was readily available. When I was reading the report, I requested that my adviser find out what happened to the group that was to be established, whether it had met, what it had concluded, and whether there were any minutes of its meetings. We found that out instantly; I believe that it was only a question of a telephone call. He found that it had met and, on 27 January, drafted a memorandum and letter. The information was readily available in the division. It did not have to be taken from the archives.

I was asked by Senator Glynn whether the Secretary General had explained why he had not included that information. There was no explanation. He said that he had not had enough time. Ironically, it was said here that, if I had had a briefing some time in October, I would have been told. It is strange. I need not repeat all my earlier comments about the reasons for certain decisions being made. Ministers and democratic Government can operate professionally and honestly only if they are given the available information. If that information had been difficult to get, of course I would have understood that it could not have been found in a few days, but this information was very readily available. It was simply left out.

If one reads the report knowing what we now know — I read it again last night, not having read it for a while — one sees that it is crafted so carefully that it is quite amazing. On the December meeting it has the following to say:

Following through on the commitment above, a small group was convened within the Department to prepare a position paper on the legal issues surrounding charges for long stay in public institutions as a prelude to submitting a request for legal advice to the Office of the Attorney General.

It should have said that a small group had been convened, that it prepared a position paper, drafted a letter, sent it to me and so on, but it stops there. If the issue had not even been broadly mentioned, one might say that someone forgot, but it is interesting that it does not go on. I do not know why all that happened or why people did not ask where the advice was, why it had not come back from the Attorney General and where we stood on the issue. The only explanation, as Mr. Travers would say, was that the Department was under enormous pressure in 2004 because of the reform.

Regarding the passage of the 2004 Act, reference was made to the fact that consideration had been given to including the charges issue in that legislation. I had many meetings regarding that legislation, but no one ever said to me that there was an issue surrounding charges and that we might deal with it. That was never said, but it has been maintained that at one point people considered inserting the charges issue into that legislation.

Regarding Senator Browne's question, the first time that the Attorney General's advice had been sought was on 27 October last. No previous Attorney General was ever asked for advice on this issue. To be fair to everyone, with the benefit of hindsight, no one would ever make a mistake. It is hard to understand how, in 1975, it was agreed to issue the regulations after the McInerney case and effectively to tell health boards to withdraw medical cards to make people ineligible. It is fairly hard to understand how anyone could have done that, while at the time the legal advice was against it, but it happened. I suppose that, had a different view been taken then and on many occasions since, we would clearly not be in this position today. We must learn from what happened, and not only in the Department of Health and Children.

I have been very impressed with the manner in which the Department has responded to this issue and others. It has been a painful learning experience, but one that people are enthusiastically embracing, with all the implications. Other Departments need to learn from this too. I was taken by Senator Maurice Hayes's comments that in Northern Ireland they had had a single group to deal with secondary legislation and regulations across the entirety of Government, so that one had a group whose responsibility it was to examine such issues. Perhaps there are lessons of that kind for us.

There may well be other regulations elsewhere badly in need of reform that expose the taxpayer. I asked the Department — that process is under way — to see if there are any other vulnerabilities from the perspective of regulations, legislation or charges. That process is ongoing. Dermot Smith, who is heading the new care of the elderly eligibility division that the new Secretary General has put in place, is in charge of all this. It makes sense to have all these issues together in a new division, given the importance of what has happened.

Others asked whether the Department was not keen to protect its funding base, and that is of course another issue. If one is in doubt, and one is getting money from something, one needs to protect that, and we were getting over €100 million a year, so it was a considerable amount. One cannot compare whether the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, told me with a written report from the Secretary General, who has administrative management responsibility for a Department. There is no comparison between the two. Anyone who attended the 16 December meeting knew that advice was to be sought and was entitled to expect that it had been sought and that legal channels were being pursued.

Parliamentary questions are taken seriously. I found in my time as a Minister that one often learns about issues through such questions. I have often asked what something was all about. A question would come in from a Deputy, and it might be something of which one had never heard, perhaps of a local nature or to do with a single individual. The process of parliamentary questions is very useful and taken seriously. The volume of questions can sometimes be overwhelming. On some days we have 300, 400 or 500, and we must respond to them within a short timeframe. Before the day for parliamentary questions comes up, it is a mammoth task reading the answers——

They are the same answers.

——or even the questions. As a good maths teacher says, the questions may be the same, but the answers are different. Someone in the Minister's office has responsibility for parliamentary questions. Eight people are working in the private Minister's office. There is the private secretary, someone in charge of correspondence, someone in charge of invitations and the diary, and someone for parliamentary questions. It is divided into areas of responsibility. There are eight staff members rather than 16.

As the members probably saw, the offices are very inadequate and outdated, and one hopes that, in the context of new office accommodation for the Department and a new beginning, we will have a better tracking system and modern supports so that things can be tracked electronically. In my last office, we used to track parliamentary questions and correspondence on an IT system, and it was very useful, since the machine would tell one if something had not been acted on within a reasonable time. If one is dealing with very many things, there are various crises from day to day, and three weeks on can be a long time later. We need the assistance of modern technology to help in a Department as busy as the Department of Health and Children.

That just goes to show. We went down there yesterday and thought that we saw 16 people, but there were only eight. People can misunderstand such things. One saw eight, and one saw 16.

We saw so many there.

My question was not fully answered. Deputy Tim O'Malley was Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, and the Tánaiste had just been appointed senior Minister for Health and Children. It is entirely logical that a Minister of State should brief the senior Minister if he has been there for two and a half years and she is newly arrived in a Department, especially if he is also her party colleague. It is being said that but for the fact that Deputy O'Malley had been implicated in this scenario, the Government would have demanded heads, but this could not be done. That is not being said by the Opposition, and I will say no more.

That is an indeterminate reference.

The committee members are very clever and can work it out for themselves.

No, tell us.

Is this another well kept secret?

That is a load of baloney.

Perhaps I might return to the appearance of the Minister, Deputy Martin, before the committee, when he said to Deputy McManus that he felt absolutely no responsibility for this. What is the Tánaiste's view on that statement?

I want to refer to something that Senator Glynn said about his membership of a health board. This inquiry concerned only the Department of Health and Children. Had it been wider, there would also have been issues for health boards, since they were doing the charging. They received advice from the Department, but legal responsibility rested with them. When people sue, it is the health boards which they sue rather than the Department of Health and Children. Issues would therefore have emerged, and to be fair to the Department of Health and Children, the inquiry was confined to its role, with no wider ambit to include health boards or others.

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Malley, briefed me on mental health, psychiatric illness and all those issues for which he has direct responsibility. I operate on the basis that Ministers of State do their own thing. I am not a Minister who keeps pulling things away. The reason that I have taken this issue — care of the elderly — is that it would have been grossly unfair of me, as an experienced Minister, to have given all this to a new Minister of State, Deputy Power, a few weeks after his appointment, with all the controversy and so on surrounding it. In normal circumstances, these matters would be dealt with by the Minister of State. I do not interfere, and when issues arise in their areas, they come to the Cabinet to present them. That is how it happened in my last Department, since that is the way I like it.

I thought the Tánaiste said that Deputy Callely was the Minister of State responsible who should have been dealing with this.

I said that Deputy Power would normally——

Forget about him. I am talking about when Deputy Callely was the Minister of State at the Department. Is the Tánaiste saying that he was responsible?

He was the Minister of State responsible for the elderly.

Therefore, he is the Minister who should have dealt with this.

He was not briefed on the issue.

: Yes, he was. That is quite wrong.

Hold on. He was briefed on the South Eastern Health Board.

He was given a briefing document that clearly showed the legal advice from the South Eastern Health Board. He attended the meeting. The Tánaiste has said that he was the Minister of State responsible, so presumably he is the person who should have tracked the process to see what happened. Is that what the Tánaiste is saying, or is it Deputy Martin who should have done that?

For the 16 December meeting, the Ministers were given a brief on an opinion of a health board. They were never told the outcome of the Attorney General's advice, since it was never sought. They were never given, according to Mr. Travers, a written brief. When Ministers are briefed on important issues, it should be in writing so that they can consider the issue. A brief should not be given walking up the stairs or down the corridor.

Not at all.

That happens too. We have to operate in a sensible fashion and if some new issue arises and the Secretary General or somebody else——

The former Minister, Deputy Martin, did not even read it.

A brief as important as this one that was raising €100 million a year——

He did not even read the material given to him. Why would he read anything else? Nor did his adviser read it.

Chairman, this is getting nasty.

Deputy Cooper-Flynn wants to ask a question.

The position paper that was prepared in January, on foot of the December meeting, was not given to any of the Ministers of State. Nobody has suggested that the position paper prepared to go with the letter to the Attorney General was given to the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Malley and Callely, or anybody else. As we know, the Secretary General said it went to the Minister's office, and there is a dispute about whether that happened, but we do know that neither the Ministers of State nor their offices got a copy of that position paper.

Should they not have followed it up at the time? They got the briefing at the MAC meeting. Should they not have followed it up, particularly the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, because he was given that information?

I want to call Deputy Cooper-Flynn who has not yet had an opportunity to contribute.

If the Ministers had been at the March meeting they would have heard that the legal advice had been sought and I am sure they would have been satisfied that the Attorney General had been asked for that. If they were at the October meeting, they would have heard that the legal options were being explored. We now know that——

Surely after nine or ten months alarm bells should have started ringing.

Senator, please, I want to allow Deputy Cooper-Flynn to speak.

I want to make the observation that this gives an insight into the thinking of the Department in that it knew of the problem from February or March 2003 but did not even include a Department briefing with the South Eastern Health Board's advice at the MAC meeting.

I want to draw on some of Michael Kelly's evidence in regard to the report he prepared for the Tánaiste on 14 December and ask her opinion on it, given that it was critical to her decision with regard to him. He stated:

The context in which this report was prepared was one where the primary political focus had already moved to taking the urgent legislative and administrative steps, adjudged to be needed to rectify the problem, in light of the advices from the Attorney General ... The Tánaiste had emphasised to me, and other officials, that she was not concerned with the "blame game" ... I worked unaided on its preparation...

He got access to whatever papers he could over the weekend on that basis but he is saying he was unaided. He goes on to state that he was busy on Monday and that he returned to his office and resumed work on finalising the report. He further stated:

Given the inconclusive result of my inquiries, the limited time available to complete the report and the nature of the report, that is, seeking to explain rather than attribute blame ... I did not address the reasons for the non-referral of the January 2004 position paper to the Attorney General ... This was a judgment call I made in the specific set of circumstances facing me at that time and, in particular, given the time constraints within which the report had to be finalised.

With the benefit of hindsight, I have to concede that the judgment I made on the drafting of my report left my actions open to misinterpretation. On reflection, the better course to have taken would have been to indicate that further time was needed to complete the report, which would have enabled more extensive inquiries to be made...

In light of Mr. Kelly's explanation, will the Tánaiste comment on whether she believes — obviously she does not — that is a fair analysis of the position in that he tried to get a report ready for her quickly, she was not looking to attribute blame, the focus had moved on and it was now about legislation? He put a quick report together based on having no officials at his disposal. Is that reasonable or unreasonable in the Tánaiste's view?

I was in the Department on Monday. I was leaving about 7 p.m. or 7.30 p.m. that evening when I inquired if the report was ready and I was told it was not. If Mr. Kelly had said he needed another few days to complete it, we would have given him another few days. Somebody is saying they were unaided but there was an entire division available in the Department, including Mr. Ahern, the assistant secretary who had responsibility for the division that prepared the position paper and the letter and Mr. Hardy, who was very involved also. All those people were——

Were they able to overlap? His point is that there was——

This is a management issue. If something is being prepared for Government, I would imagine the civil servants should be available and it is a matter for the Secretary General to make them available and put in place whatever arrangements are necessary to do a report for Cabinet.

The March 2004 minutes of the meeting of the group that Mr. Kelly chaired state that legal advice had been sought. That was not true.

Who prepared those minutes? I asked that question of Mr. Kelly.

By the following meeting the story had changed and it was that legal options were being explored. That too was untrue. I find that difficult to understand. It should be remembered that the 18 October meeting, at which it was said that the legal options were being explored, was in advance of my asking Mr. Kelly to do the report for the Cabinet in December. It was only a few weeks earlier. In fact, it was after I went there as Minister.

I put those two questions to Mr. Kelly. Did Mr. Kelly ever come back to us on who prepared the minutes for the MAC meeting?

No. We have not got that information yet.

Mr. Kelly was also to confirm that he met with Mr. Pat McLoughlin in February 2003. Did we get that confirmation?

We got that confirmation, yes.

He confirmed that.

That is important because in Mr. Kelly's evidence, before that was brought to his attention he said the first he knew of this was in December 2003 whereas it is clear now——

He did not have a clear mind on that.

Therefore, he has corrected the record.

The fact that there was not a Department briefing for the MAC meeting of December 2003 makes it more relevant. To be fair to Mr. Kelly in his absence, he felt he wanted to give the Tánaiste the up to date position without going into the nitty-gritty because the question of blame did not arise. He said he did the report on his own over the weekend and that there was no one available to him.

The briefing document for the first MAC meeting was sent by e-mail the day before. Was that a normal occurrence? Does the Tánaiste believe that is acceptable? I realise Ministers need time to read documents——

To which document is the Deputy referring?

The briefing document for the first MAC meeting that the then Minister, Deputy Martin, did not read. Is that a common occurrence? What is the process of getting documentation for a meeting such as a MAC meeting or whatever?

If a Minister is getting a brief for any meeting, even if it is meeting a deputation, delegation or whatever, a brief is prepared in advance and one gets it in a folder. If it is a short notice brief, say, arising on a Friday evening or perhaps when one is out of the office or even out of the country, it might come by e-mail or fax. A hard copy is usually available as well. That is my experience.

Should there have been more notice of a MAC meeting and a proper folder supplied?

I do not know what was the level of notice.

We have to conclude soon. I will hear a final question from Senator Browne.

We accept that the decision to seek legal opinion from the Attorney General was correct and that everyone was happy with that but alarm bells should have rang in the Ministers' heads by March, and certainly by October, when they were told that legal opinion was still being sought. What is the standard length of time for legal opinion——

They were not at the MAC meetings.

They should have been aware of that. They decided in December that legal opinion would be sought. They heard nothing about it from that time. If I sought legal advice in December and by the following October I had heard nothing about it, I would be getting very concerned. I suspect that would be the case with the Tánaiste also.

It was not a matter for them.

The Deputy is right. He should have been on the telephone.

The departmental officials have answered that.

(Interruptions).

The Government members are being disparaging towards the Ministers. Do they believe Ministers cannot think for themselves or query matters?

Senator Browne is wasting time. We have exhausted that issue.

Ministers were present at a meeting in December where a decision was taken that legal advice would be sought from the Attorney General. Months passed and no one sought to ask a question.

The blame has been firmly put on the Civil Service and that is wrong. The politicians, the senior Minister and the two Ministers of State, should share the blame. They should have queried this matter. I am sure the Tánaiste's experience is that she would have sought legal advice. What would she deem an acceptable period before getting definitive word from the Attorney General? On a serious issue like this, would she have expected an immediate reply? The Attorney General's office is very busy but on such a serious issue would she have expected a reply within a week or a month? What timeframe would she regard as being reasonable? Will she accept that the Minister should have followed up this matter?

At the March meeting when it was said legal advice was sought, the then assistant secretary in charge of this division, Frank Ahern, was of the view that the legal advice had been sought. He thought that was the position.

That is not——

Allow the Tánaiste to answer. I am sure she will get to the point.

I am trying to explain. As regards the timeframe for legal advice coming back, it could be days. If it is more complex, it make take a little longer. I would say it could be two months at the outside. The Deputy would have to ask somebody in the Attorney General's office about that. In my experience, the office is very efficient and responsible, about that there is no doubt.

The reality is that mistakes were made here and we will pay a heavy price for them. We must make sure that we learn a lesson from all those mistakes, namely, that if there are any legal doubts about charges or any other legislation, we need to get advice on that and act accordingly. The Travers report——

The Cabinet meets on a weekly basis, which the Minister — the Minister for Health and Children in this instance — and the Attorney General attend. The Minister said two months would be a reasonable time by which to expect to receive an opinion. There are three Ministers, most particularly, the Minister in the Department——

Plus two ministerial advisers.

——none of whom asked the question, even of the Attorney General, that they should have asked, namely, to proceed with this matter as the advice is awaited or said that this is a matter of such importance that one of us has advised the Taoiseach. It seems that ultimately the Minister cannot ignore the negligence of her colleagues, yet she has done that all morning. She has successfully kept batting back and concentrating on the civil servants. There is no argument in that respect. The Secretary General has gone and nobody is saying he should be reinstated. There is the question of ministerial accountability and responsiblity that the Minister has not taken on board. In effect, she has been applying double standards.

How can the Ministers be blameless when the Department is so blameworthy? How can the Ministers be perceived to be lily white while the Department is perceived to be as black as can be? That is not the reality. Surely the Tánaiste would accept that view.

I do not see the world in terms of issues being black or white.

That is the message that comes across.

Usually there is a lot of grey in many of these issues.

We cannot go back over everything again.

The Travers report drew a conclusion. It did not exonerate Ministers, it stated that Ministers over the years should have done more probing. It also stated in strong terms that when a balanced view is taken of all that happened, no Minister was appropriately briefed, and that is a fact. There is no doubt about that. Ministers are entitled to expect that the Attorney General's advice is sought on issues, given to them and acted upon. On a Minister's desk, particularly a Minister for Health who is very busy, there are a large number of files. There are probably 30 to 50 files on my desk, some of which relate to correspondence, some to invitations and many to current active issues.

A Minister reads them, acts on them and is entitled to assume they are being followed up on, for example, that people will report that the advice sought has been received and will highlight whether there is a problem. As to whether I could honestly say that in respect of every file I sign off on I monitor and track the issue, of course I could not. I rely on a very efficient, effective public service to do that, and we have that in the main. There have been very few exceptions where it has not acted efficiently and effectively, promptly and honestly.

There are Ministers of State who have responsibilities, such as the then Minister of State with responsiblity for the elderly, Deputy Callely. Does the Minister consider that in future a Minister of State with responsiblity for the elderly should follow up on important issues such as this one, which was raised, and needed to be, but was not followed up on?

I wish to start winding up the proceedings by pointing out that we are going over all the issues again. Mr. Travers will appear before the committee in the afternoon. The basis of these proceedings is to work out what went wrong in the Department and for this committee to make recommendations in that regard. We have exhausted all the questions that can be asked on this point. Can we bring these proceedings to a conclusion, given that Mr. Travers will appear before the committee later and there is other business to be dealt with, or are we going back into a fourth round of questions on this issue?

I wish to refer to media reports of what the Tánaiste said about another matter. The Tánaiste was very involved in the Gama issue and the advice given was followed. I do not want to go into the detail of that issue, but that illustrates that when she was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment she was heavily involved in the issues, she took advice on them and followed up on them. That is in stark contrast to the way this issue was dealt with.

On the basis of what we heard from the Tánaiste this morning and at previous meetings, we are in the process of preparing a report which will be presented. What we have heard will be recorded in that report. We cannot go back over all this. Mr. Travers will appear before the committee in the afternoon to clarify a few points. There are no more questions we can ask the Tánaiste.

As Oireachtas Members, we all received letters weekly from the former Minister of State with responsiblity for the elderly on different issues informing us of the great job he was doing, yet it is ironic he ignored the issue on which he should have focused.

We do not accept that.

The Senator's comment would be fair if the then Minister, Deputy Martin, had got legal advice from the Attorney General——

I referred to the then Minister of State, Deputy Callely.

——or the then Minister of State, Deputy Callely, or any Minister in such circumstances. Legal advice was sought on 27 October, it came back and we acted on it instantly. If that had happened a few months earlier, there would be an issue of ministerial accountability, but that did not happen.

The then Minister of State should have followed up that issue.

The advice was sought.

I find it astonishing that the Minister, Deputy Harney, is persisting in protecting the Ministers from being accountable for their responsibilities. I ask her to reconsider the statement she made in the House to the effect that Ministers were kept in the dark. She made that statement in Dáil Éireann, but the Ministers were not kept in the dark, they did not read the information given to them. There is no reason to believe that were they given anything else on this issue they might have read that either.

In response to that comment — this is important — no Minister was appropriately briefed. Mr. Travers said that, and that is a fact.

They were given information.

They were given a brief-——

The Minister of State said he understood the implication.

They were given a brief.

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Malley, said he knew and understood the implication of that.

They were given a brief on a South Eastern Health Board opinion.

Yes, and the Minister of State had-——

At the same time they were told the Attorney General's advice would be sought and they were entitled-——

They should have followed up on that.

They did nothing about it.

I thank the Tánaiste for her contribution, but before she leaves I wish to clear up one point.The day after she received her seal of office as Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children she met the Secretary General of the Department. I am referring to the issue of people being kept in the dark. How long did that meeting last? I refer to the specific briefing meeting outlining the major issues facing the Minister in her new Ministry?

I would say at least an hour or maybe more.

Can she recall how many major issues were dealt with at that meeting?

He gave me an overview of the pressing issues. We spoke a great deal about the reform agenda and so on. He gave me the brief from all the sections which I took home that weekend and read, together with many of the strategy reports.

This was nine months after the MAC meeting of 2003.

All the information in this regard was from the South Eastern Health Board, yet not one second of that briefing was devoted to that. The issue of charges did not arise.

No. Equally, at the meeting on the Monday all the assistant secretaries were present — as I said I took notes of that meeting, we asked many questions and it was a very good meeting — the Ministers of State and their advisers were present and the issue was not mentioned there. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, was briefed by the division. The Chairman can ask him about that, although I am not sure if he has appeared before the committee. He was not briefed on this issue either.

Let us presume — I do not do so for one second — that the then Minister, Deputy Martin, had no interest in this issue and that he had been briefed at every opportunity, even on the front or back stairs, by Mr. Kelly, and ignored all the advice, why did Mr. Kelly not take the major opportunity presented in the middle of the term of this Administration to brief the new Minister for Health and Children? I cannot figure that out. There can be a question of "maybe" about this issue. That is the same as saying we are putting every emphasis on the——

Maybe he asked, "What is the point?"

Maybe he felt it was more of the same. He did not realise——

That is similar to spending two mornings arguing, as we did, about the file in the office. When we went down to see the office yesterday, most members thought they saw 16 people working in that office.

Chairman——

I am being factual. This is very important.

(Interruptions).

That will go on the record. One person said that.

I did not hear any of the members opposite correct him, but we did.

Deputy Gormley made the point that huge emphasis was placed by the person who said they saw something, but greater emphasis was placed in terms of the person who did not see something. Less than 24 hours ago, we went to that office and people have a notion of there being a large number of staff there.

One person made that statement.

Nobody intervened to say that there were not 16.

A Member

How many people were downstairs? There is another office downstairs, and how many more were in that office?

Even more importantly, how many files did we see on window sills and piled on desks? They were all over the place.

The reality is that the Tánaiste was kept in the dark on the morning of the major briefing. I thank the Tánaiste for her contribution.

I thank the Chairman.

I note that the Tánaiste has no briefing material and no people beside her, and she answered all the questions in an open and transparent way.

Unaided. She should have told you it was a "no blame" game.

Are you criticising her predecessor, Chairman? He implied that.

I am not. We will go into private session to deal with some issues.

I do not want this in private session.

I have no difficulty with that but I might have to do so to ask the clerk about one or two brief points. The issue is that the Ceann Comhairle has been invited to appear before the committee and we will discuss that. I will have to take certain advice and we will have to go into private session at that point.

Perhaps we could take the issue I wish to raise in public session first. It is a letter I circulated to the members. I thank the chairman for facilitating that. I was concerned about the former Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, coming before this committee. Obviously, he has some input into this issue because he was a member of the Government that took office after former Deputy John Boland had got Cabinet approval to act on this matter.

My legal advice is straightforward. Not only can the former Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, appear before the committee but he should do so. He does not have immunity, which covers certain people such as the President, from coming before a committee. He is an officeholder, as we all are, for the purposes of the Ethics in Public Office Act. That Act provides that Members must co-operate with all tribunals of inquiry and other bodies established by the Houses of the Oireachtas inquiring into matters of public importance. That requirement is on every Member of the Oireachtas.

To be fair to the former Minister for Health, he appeared before the Lindsay tribunal. It is important that a precedent is not set whereby Members of the House would not appear or be asked to appear before a committee such as this. I propose that we write to the former Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, asking him to appear before the committee because of the particular input he might have. That does not necessarily mean it will be politically controversial, it is simply a case of seeking information. I have no problem with asking any former Minister for Health to appear before the committee, but we need to address this issue first because of the nature of the role of the former Minister. I propose that the committee agree to send him the letter and make the points made in the legal advice.

That is the proposal. I am not trying to stifle matters but to make a few points. The Deputy said the Ceann Comhairle in the past appeared before the Lindsay tribunal. I do not wish to be argumentative but when he appeared before that tribunal he was the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. No Ceann Comhairle has appeared before a tribunal in the past.

Second, with regard to the committee's terms of reference, I have received advice that the Dáil has not authorised this committee to send for persons, papers or records, which triggers compellability powers under the legislation. We are not empowered to do that.

I am not claiming that we are. My proposal is that we write a letter to the former Minister for Health and perhaps refer to the points that are made in the legal advice. He is in a position to come before the committee. We cannot compel him to do so and I do not claim otherwise.

I have no difficulty with that. I cannot pre-empt the response, but if the Ceann Comhairle makes the point in his response that no Ceann Comhairle appeared before a committee previously, let us accept that. We are asking him to make his position clear. Initially the emphasis was on getting the then Attorney General to come before the committee, but that was dropped. Now we are after the Ceann Comhairle. If he makes the point that his office has never before been brought into an area of potential controversy, do we accept that? I hope we can.

That is not the issue. The issue is whether he is barred from coming before the committee. No previous Ceann Comhairle was in a similar situation. Just because it did not happen in the past does not mean it cannot be done now.

I hope we will not have to consider that.

The committee wishes to invite the Ceann Comhairle to come before it. The appropriate course of action is for me initially to send a letter on behalf of the committee to the Ceann Comhairle, enclosing a copy of Deputy McManus's letter and asking him to respond to the issues contained therein. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.45 a.m. and resumed in public session at 2.30 p.m.

I welcome everybody back. I thank Mr. Travers for returning to the committee. I will ask him to address the committee on any important issues arising from the committee's hearings on his report and members may then ask questions. How long can Mr. Travers remain here?

Mr. John Travers

As long as you need me, Chairman.

We will try to do the business as quickly as possible.

Does that mean three hours, Chairman?

I was thinking more of five hours. Seriously, however, we have to vacate this committee room by 5 p.m. Before Mr. Travers addresses us, I advise the committee that we will prepare our draft report on 2 June and the final report will be prepared around 9 June. I ask members to consider the issues that have arisen during the hearings. It is fair to say that one of the issues that continues to crop up here is that in the preparation and presentation of the report, Mr. Travers let the political establishment off lightly, so I would like Mr. Travers to address it. Mr. Travers made the point that politicians — Ministers, obviously — should have probed more. The word "probe" has been tested to its limit to see what exactly it means and how extensive such a probe should have been.

It has been said that Mr. Travers prepared a report to suit the Tánaiste or those who asked him to prepare it. It is important for Mr. Travers to clarify that. In all that Mr. Travers has heard and read, does he feel that Ministers were briefed properly? The e-mail issue keeps coming up here. Why was it not included in Mr. Travers's report? It creates a certain suspicion because even though Mr. Travers refers to the issue, the e-mail is not contained in the report. I would also like Mr. Travers to clarify the position regarding the three drafts by Mr. Kelly. Was Mr. Travers satisfied with that? Did he go back and forth, and what was the background to that?

The most difficult issue for me to get around is that of the two public servants — I do not want to refer to them by name — one in the planning unit and the other in the Minister's office. The difficulty is that we are often asked whom we are supposed to believe. I am not asking Mr. Travers who he believes but to try to help us to come to a conclusion as we enter the final stage of preparing our report.

I will now ask Mr. Travers to respond, after which I will open up the meeting for questions and answers.

Mr. Travers

I have prepared a statement which covers many of the points to which the Chairman has referred in his opening remarks. I will deal with them in the course of the statement. The only one I have not dealt with in the course of the statement, because I did not think there was a particular need to do so, was the issue the Chairman raised as to whether the report was prepared to suit some political agenda. I find that a difficult issue to address because there is a suggestion there that I would, in some way or another, have taken a political approach to the preparation of this report. I say as strongly and as straightforwardly as I can that I have worked for over 40 years as a public servant, I have worked with Ministers and other politicians of all persuasions and I do not think any one of them would, at any stage, have suggested that, in a public service context, I took a political perspective on anything I worked on, and I certainly did not do so in the report I prepared.

I am very glad to be here again to offer whatever assistance I can in the committee's deliberations. To recap briefly, I was asked to do four things in my investigation into the issues surrounding illegal health board nursing home charges: first, identify when the Department of Health and Children first knew of the existence of legal concerns relating to the relevant health board nursing home charges; second, what the Department did about these legal concerns once it knew about them; third, why the Department did not seek legal advice from the Attorney General until 27 October 2004; and fourth, where the Department should go from here in terms of organisational changes in practices and procedures to ensure an appropriate prioritisation of responses by it to matters of significant policy, financial and legal importance.

For the purpose of the report into the investigation I was asked to undertake, the term "Department of Health and Children" was taken to be the entire corporate entity that operates under the title of that Department encompassing the Ministers and officials of that Department.

In very summary form, the overall conclusions on the four elements of the terms of reference for the investigation as set out in detail in the report are as follows: first, as regards when the Department of Health and Children was aware of legal concerns surrounding the relevant nursing home charges from the formal inception of the practices involved in 1976 and through the frequent reiteration of these concerns over the years right up to October 2004——

May I ask about the format? Is Mr. Travers planning to read the 22 pages of his submission? Will we then have questions and answers?

To be fair to Mr. Travers, he has come back to deal with that. We will ask questions afterwards.

I thought it was a purely questions and answers session.

Mr. Travers has indicated that he can stay as long as we like to answer questions which might arise.

It is quite a lengthy submission.

We are being briefed on a serious issue.

Why did Mr. Travers not furnish us with his submission beforehand? It is very difficult for us to absorb a very large document and ask reasonable questions on it. Surely it should have been circulated before Mr. Travers came in.

Mr. Travers

I was working on this document up to this morning. It deals with issues raised in recent days. It was impossible for me to deal with all the issues before today. I have worked very hard to prepare it.

I would not argue with that.

Mr. Travers

The purpose was to respond as fairly and as fully as possible to a number of the issues raised by this committee previously. I would have hoped the committee would have found that useful from the point of view of its deliberations.

I find it very useful.

Nobody else was interrupted when making their submission. We are grateful to Mr. Travers for coming back and we should allow him to finish and not argue about whether he should or should not have sent us his submission.

We will proceed.

The committee should have been able to read the submission before questions and answers.

We talk about the importance of these hearings and we have somebody before us who plays a central part.

If one listens, one will learn.

Mr. Travers

On the question that the Department did not take effective action to address these legal concerns at any time until October 2004, the reasons for the inaction of the Department in relation to the known legal concerns lay in a combination of the following ten factors: a belief that the underlying principle was right; a desire to protect an important source of income for looking after the elderly in a situation where State underfunding for health services was regarded as endemic; a failure to attach due weight to the legal concerns expressed; an apparent undue concern about political sensitivity; the effluxion of time in the sense of a perception that what appeared to operate reasonably effectively for a considerable period of time did not require to be changed; weaknesses in the risk assessment procedures of the Department; weaknesses in the analysis of the issues involved on the part of the Department; poor overall corporate judgment by the Department; a failure on the part of the Department to act decisively in seeking the advice of the Attorney General in 2003-04; and a failure at political level over the years in not probing and questioning more strongly and assiduously the issues underlying the practice of charges for nursing home care in place since 1976. These factors help to explain, but not necessarily justify, the absence of appropriate action on the part of the Department to deal effectively with the relevant issues over the period concerned.

As regards where to go from here, a number of recommendations are set out in the report. These cover strategic, organisational and procedural issues, both in the Department and relating to the wider public service. They are based on lessons to be learned from the failures which have attended the introduction and maintenance over many years of the system of illegal charges for nursing home care in health board institutions covered in the report.

There has been widespread acceptance of the central findings of the report. I am not aware of any objective and informed rejection of them. The former Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children in his presentation to this committee fully accepted what he terms the "central thesis" of the report that the judgments made in relation to the illegal nursing home charges over the years by the Department were mistaken and that the failure to act on the legal doubts expressed represented a form of maladministration. He also stated in his evidence to the committee that he has no dispute with the facts outlined in the report. The Minister, the Ministers of State and the special advisers to the Ministers who have appeared before this committee have also indicated their acceptance of the main findings, conclusions and facts set out in the report. The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, who commissioned the report, has indicated that it fully meets its terms of reference and that she accepts its findings.

A number of issues for clarification have been raised in relation to the report by this committee and by others. The seeking of such clarification is correct and appropriate given the seriousness of the issues raised for all those directly affected by the illegal nursing home charges, for our system of public administration and political governance and for the taxpayer. This is especially so because of the sensitivity and consequences of the findings and conclusions set out in the report. I attempt to respond to what I consider the most significant of these issues as follows.

First, the responsibility attributed to politicians, including the former Minister, Deputy Martin, for the now widely accepted systemic corporate failure that applied to the illegal practice of nursing home charges in health board institutions was, unjustifiably, of a lower order of magnitude than that which applied to civil servants. Second, a copy of the full report should have been given to the then Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children for his observations and inputs in advance of its submission to the person who commissioned the report, namely, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children. Third, only the final version of the different versions of the statement provided by the then Secretary General of the Department in relation to the follow-up to the submission prepared for issue to the Attorney General in January 2004, as set out at paragraph 4.57 of the report, should have been included in the report.

Fourth, a copy of the e-mail provided for the purpose of the investigation by the official referred to at paragraph 4.54 of the report who, as described in the report, outlined a recollection of seeing in early 2004 the submission made to the Secretary General for transmission to the Attorney General in January 2004 in the outer office of the Minister should have been included as an additional appendix with the other 20 appendices to the report. Fifth, the criticisms set out in the report of the operation of the management advisory committee in the Department over a number of years are not justified. Sixth, the introduction of an amendment to the Health Act 1970 to provide a proper legal basis for the illegal practice, universal across health boards, of levying charges on persons with medical cards in health board nursing homes would not, as the report states, be simply a technically uncomplicated amendment unlikely to raise unduly serious political or other difficulties in its enactment.

Each of the above is discussed in detail later in this presentation. Before doing so, I emphasise again a fundamental conclusion of the report, which is the subject matter of the deliberations of this committee. Based on the facts clearly stated and established in the report, the illegal imposition of nursing home charges, as outlined in it, represents, without qualification, a long-term systemic corporate failure in the Department of Health and Children at both political and administrative levels in relation to that particular issue. There has not been and cannot be any credible refutation of that conclusion. It flows inexorably from the undisputed facts outlined in the report.

The failures involved are of the utmost seriousness for the system of Irish public administration, including political governance. This is so both in terms of the length of time over which they persisted and in terms of the financial implications which arise for the Exchequer. The challenge that now comes into focus for our system of public administration and political governance is to address fully, honestly and without reservation the lessons to be learned from the failures that have taken place so that failures of such extent and magnitude will not recur.

It is important to restate these matters drawn from the report so that the discussion on the issues raised in regard to the report from various sources, as outlined, do not detract from the fundamental and uncontested findings of the report regarding the long-term systemic corporate failure which underlay the practice of illegal nursing home charges described in the report. Drawing attention to the central and uncontested conclusions of the report and the underlying facts does not, in any way, diminish the importance of responding fully, openly and accurately to other issues raised, a number of which have clearly, fairly and legitimately been raised by members of the committee.

In other instances, peripheral issues have been raised with an apparent objective of diverting attention from the fundamental and widely accepted conclusions of the report in some mistaken belief that, in some unknown way, this serves the interests of our system of public administration and political governance; it, of course, does not. The outstanding integrity, professionalism and performance of civil servants generally in the Department of Health and Children and elsewhere, which are strongly acknowledged in the report, are poorly served and represented by any attempt to defend the indefensible in the case of the acknowledged maladministration associated with the practice of illegal nursing home charges over many years.

The failures of public administration involved in this area, have, inevitably, if unfairly, shaken public confidence in the wider system of public administration that has served this country well over so many years in both the Department of Health and Children and elsewhere. It is, and would be, highly irresponsible to fail to acknowledge without reservation the failures that have occurred in the significant but limited area of public administration concerned. To do so would represent a closing of eyes and ears to the undisputed facts that have emerged and a refusal to face up to the consequences of required acknowledgement and organisational and procedural changes that must logically follow. It is vital that this is done openly and honestly if similar failures at both political and administrative levels are to be avoided in future and if the confidence of citizens in the essential competence and integrity of our system of public administration, which has prevailed over many decades, is to be maintained and enhanced.

To their credit, the officials of the Department of Health and Children have acknowledged these points and the validity of the central findings and facts of the report in their evidence to this committee and elsewhere. I do not underestimate the difficulty involved in doing this. This is especially the case since the report clearly points out that the illegal charges in place since 1976 conferred no particular benefits on officials, or Ministers, of the Department and that concurrence with them derived, to a considerable extent, from a desire to protect what was seen as essential income for an underfunded national health system. It also derived from a widely accepted belief that the principle of making charges for the long-stay services provided was correct. In clearly acknowledging the mistakes made, the officials of the Department represent the best traditions of the public service system and, in doing so, provide good foundations for maintaining confidence in its continued integrity and competence in future years.

I refer to a number of the issues raised. The first issue is the responsibility attributed to politicians, including the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, for the widely accepted systemic corporate failure that applied to the illegal practice of nursing home charges in health board institutions was, unjustifiably, of a lower order of magnitude than that which applied to civil servants.

I have some concerns about entering into discussion on this matter in that it is an issue which, apart from its intrinsic relevance and relationship to a number of the conclusions drawn in the report, is also being widely addressed from a political perspective. Having worked effectively with Ministers of different political persuasions in a number of Departments over many years, I understand, at least to some extent, the inevitability of this in the context of our system of parliamentary democracy. I hope the committee will understand, however, if I point out that in the report I prepared and in my presentation to the committee, I have not entered, and will not enter, into discussion on the purely political issues that arise.

With regard to the issue of political responsibility, controversy, perhaps, could have been avoided on the matter if the overall conclusion of systemic corporate failure, political and administrative, over a period of almost 30 years had been allowed to stand alone and without qualification in the report. For the report to apportion equality of responsibility in the maladministration clearly apparent over time, and now widely accepted, in respect of the nursing home charges might appear to have been the judicious course of action to follow. To have done so, however, would have represented a serious derogation of responsibility in compiling the report. If this had happened, the report would have been fundamentally unfair and unsound.

Ministers as well as civil servants are entitled to fair treatment. If the report had failed to address this issue, it would also have failed to provide the proper context and foundation for, perhaps, the most important of the four elements set out in the terms of reference for the report, that is, the element which points to the future rather than to the arid territory of the past. I refer to the element of the terms of reference for the report which required the identification of "such changes in practices and procedures, in the Department of Health & Children, that are necessary or desirable for the purpose of prioritising the response of the Department to matters of significant policy, financial or legal importance".

The report draws attention in page 68 to the likelihood, even in the absence of any documentary evidence made available to me by the Department of Health and Children in response to my specific and repeated requests for such evidence, that various Ministers over the years had some awareness of the difficulties surrounding the charging regime and that Ministers and their advisers might have been expected to more actively probe and analyse the underlying issues involved. The report does not, in any way, attempt to minimise, excuse or justify the lack of action by Ministers and their advisers in this respect over the years.

The report concludes, however, on the evidence available that the shortcomings of Ministers in this regard were of a significantly lesser scale, substance and order of magnitude than those of the system of administration. Two main reasons are adduced for this conclusion. The primary responsibility to provide a clear, authoritative analysis of the issues involved rested with the Department of Health and Children. The failure to do so over so many years represents a major failure of administration. The main information base and corporate memory on the issues involved lay with the administrative system of the Department of Health and Children. Ministers could not reasonably be expected to be aware of the full extent of the issues that surrounded the practices of charges for long-stay care in health board institutions held in the information base of the Department if these were not brought forward in a clear, convincing and recordable format. The "chapter and verse" underlying these conclusions are set out clearly and fairly throughout the report, especially in chapters 3, 4 and 5.

The proposition has been put forward, including within this committee, that because of the availability of the legal opinion provided to the then South Eastern Health Board, SEHB, in 2002 to the effect, among other things, that the practice of charging people with medical cards in health board nursing homes was illegal it follows that the Minister in place in the Department of Health and Children at that time was more culpable than predecessor Ministers in not dealing effectively with the issue or having it dealt with effectively.

I gave that proposition a great deal of consideration in writing my report. I have subsequently done so again following the objectively and entirely correct decision of members of the committee to raise it during its deliberations. I am grateful to the committee for doing so and for providing me with the opportunity to address it again. In doing so, I am conscious of the different political interests involved to which I have referred previously in this presentation. It might be again considered judicious to prevaricate on this but I do not intend to do so in the knowledge that I have attempted to approach the matter as fairly and as objectively as possible on the basis of the established facts available to me and that I have dealt with the matter from a completely apolitical perspective.

I did not at the time I prepared the report, and I do not now, consider the proposition outlined to be sustainable. If I considered it to be so, I would have said that in my report and I would say so now. The reasons for my conclusions on this matter, based on the evidence made available to me, are as follows: the substance of the legal opinion on this matter provided to the SEHB and conveyed to the Department in early 2003 was not different from the legal opinions and other advices conveyed to the Department on a number of occasions previously as set out in the report, including that of the Department's legal advisers, at the time the illegal practice of nursing home charges was introduced in 1976 and on a number of other occasions over the years; of Senior Counsel Ronan Keane and Thomas McCann in 1978; of the registrar of the wards of court operating under the aegis of the President of the High Court in 1978; included in memoranda prepared by the Department of Health and Children and submitted to successive Governments in February and March 1987; of a number of internal briefing documents in the Department of Health and Children, notably in 1982 and 1992; of a number of advisory and statutory bodies established over the years, including the Commission on Health Funding in 1989 and the Human Rights Commission in 2003; and of a number of Government statements on health strategy, including, notably, those of 1994 and 2001.

It would be unfair to single out the then Minister for Health and Children, who happened to be in position at the time of receipt of the most recent legal opinion on the illegality of nursing home charges, for greater culpability and responsibility than that of any of his predecessors. The logic of such a proposition would be that a hierarchy of political responsibility and culpability in respect of the illegal nursing home charges should apply to Ministers based on the distance in time that has elapsed between their occupation of the position of Minister and the time the initial flawed decision was taken in 1976. This is because the number of legal opinions at variance with the practice of charges put in place in 1976 increased over time. On the other hand, the continuation of the practice without challenge over time might be seen to have conferred comfort on the validity of the charging system in place. The corollary to this proposition is that the Minister in position at the time the flawed illegal practice was introduced in 1976 bears the least responsibility and culpability, and perhaps even none, if the length of distance in time from the flawed decision is regarded as the measure of assessment. Clearly such a proposition is unsustainable.

The joint committee may wish to note the views of the former Secretary General on these matters. In his evidence to the joint committee on 20 April, he suggested that a greater weight of responsibility should have been attached to politicians in the report. This is on the basis of the "subtle clues" and "strong political undercurrents" he discerned in the papers he read, especially those surrounding events in 1976, 1979 and 1987, as set out on page 53 of the transcript of proceedings. It also involved a "reading between the lines to know what was going on", as set out on page 70 of the transcript of proceedings.

Reading between the lines is an interesting and informative, if somewhat inconclusive, exercise. I have engaged in the practice while carrying out the investigation which is the subject matter of the report. However, it is an exercise which invites different interpretations, to none of which can certainty be ascribed. It is an exercise which cannot form a basis for conclusions of substance or any great credibility. The need to resort to the intrinsic uncertainty and dissatisfaction arising from attempts to read between the lines results from a failure to maintain even a de minimis recording of certain significant discussions, decisions and directions, purported or real, on the nursing home charges issue over the years.

It might be noted that while the former Secretary General raised the issue, he came to no conclusions of substance on the matter. His comments did not, in any way, go as far as those set out clearly and unambiguously in the report on the matter. On page 70 of the transcript of proceedings, he stated that whatever charges he lays against Ministers in the somewhat distant past — these do not appear to amount to very much — he is "not making the same charge against any Minister in recent times". Since the former Secretary General was close to the events of relevance to the matter in recent years his evidence on this issue may be of particular interest to the joint committee.

Reference has been made to the briefing provided for the MAC-CEO meeting of 16 December 2003. The background to this meeting, the agenda for the meeting, the range of items discussed, the background papers circulated for the meeting, the minutes of the meeting and a number of related matters have been described clearly in paragraph 4.35 and subsequent paragraphs of the report. As is clear from the report, the issue of long-stay charges was discussed under one of the five elements listed as part of the agenda item described, possibly erroneously, as Long Stay Charges — Over 70s.

Two briefing documents were, with others, circulated late on the afternoon before the meeting. The first was a short inter-office memorandum dated 8 May 2003, approximately one page in length, from the SEHB which raised three issues: the entitlement, or otherwise, of persons with "full eligibility" to a place in a long-stay hospital free of charge; the entitlement, or otherwise, of people over 70 years of age to free long-stay hospital care, if required; and the need for health boards generally to discuss these matters.

The second document consisted of a summary of legal advices which the SEHB had received regarding the provision of nursing home care which was not as extensive or detailed as the excerpts set out in paragraph 3.35 of the report which I prepared and submitted to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children in March 2005.

It might be noted that no briefing note was circulated for the meeting by the Department of Health and Children on these matters. In the course of the work I undertook in preparing the report, I was informed by the Department that no briefing had been prepared for submission to the Minister on the matter during the course of 2003. I understand that the Department has confirmed this position to the joint committee.

A briefing document, which is set out as annexe 6 of this presentation, including a draft memorandum for the Government, appears to have been provided for the information of the then Secretary General on 15 December 2003, that is on the day before the MAC-CEO meeting of 16 December 2003. The introduction of the briefing document states:

This paper summarises the key points on the need for a revised system for long-stay care in health board institutions. A detailed paper on the background to these issues is attached together with a draft memorandum for Government. There have been growing difficulties with the legislation in this area, arising from court judgments, the absence of a specific statutory framework to reflect the changing nature of care in this area and, in particular, the decision to grant automatic entitlement to medical cards for persons over 70 years.

Reference was also made to the Government health strategy published in November 2001. The report covers relevant issues set out in that strategy at paragraphs 3.29 and 4.27 to 4.30, inclusive. In particular, the report draws attention to certain elements of the health strategy of 2001. The strategy stated: "it is fair that all those in receipt of publicly provided residential long-term care should make some payment towards accommodation and daily living costs, if they can afford to do so, just as they would if they were living in the community".

The strategy also noted that the system of eligibility for services within the health system is complex. It committed to the introduction of new legislation to provide for clear statutory provisions on entitlements to health services generally and, within that legislation, to a "clear framework for financing of long-stay care for older people". It clearly positioned the eligibility and associated issues surrounding long-term care in health board institutions within a much wider framework of eligibility for health services generally.

It might be noted that the 2001 health strategy has little to say about legal concerns or uncertainties surrounding the practice of charges for long-stay care patients in health board institutions and it positioned the matter within a much wider framework of eligibility for health services in general. Some of the working papers prepared for consultative and working groups associated with the preparation of the strategy appear to have been somewhat more direct on this issue, but the issue of legal uncertainty was not highlighted in the final reports of the working or consultative groups on long-term care issues that were made available to me. The 1994 Government health strategy was more direct in this respect when, regarding the long-stay care issue, it stated

those in public care are still governed by legislation which is now recognised as inadequate ... the legislation gives rise to anomalies and inequities as regards the charges that can be made. The legislation will be amended to provide a clearer and fairer basis for these contributions towards the cost of long-term maintenance.

The second issue raised was that a copy of the full report should have been given to the then Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children for his observations and inputs in advance of its submission to the person who commissioned the report, namely, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children. It has been suggested that the fact that the report in its entirety was not given to the then Secretary General before its submission to the Tánaiste means that an undertaking given at the outset was not honoured. This suggestion is at variance with the known facts and with the proper and correct procedures relating to the investigation required under the terms of reference for the report.

Attached at annexe 1 to this presentation is the note, dated 2 February 2005, provided to the then Secretary General with respect to consultation regarding the content of the report. In it, I provide "assurance that if the actions of any individual officer in the Department is identified or identifiable in the report that I will submit to the Tánaiste, that officer, if any, will be given an opportunity by me to review and comment on the relevant, if any, part of the report and such comment, if any, will be conveyed to the Tánaiste". This assurance was fully and fairly honoured in the preparation and completion of the report.

It is clear that, at the outset of the investigation I was asked to undertake, no assurance was sought and no assurance was provided that the report in its entirety would be given to any person prior to its submission to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children on its completion. The former Secretary General in his evidence to this joint committee acknowledges this on page 79 of the transcript of proceedings. When, on 25 February, the former Secretary General sought a commitment from me at that stage that he be provided with a copy of the final report before its submission to the Tánaiste, I made it clear to him, as he has acknowledged to this committee, that I considered it inappropriate and beyond my authority. I informed the Tánaiste of the then Secretary General's request to me and of my response to it.

The then Secretary General did not suggest at that time that he had been given any assurance by me that he, or any other person, would be provided with the entire report on completion before its submission to the Tánaiste. He did not raise the matter with me again. The matter of my assurances to him with regard to whether the entirety of the report would be made available to him could not have been clearer from my note to him of 2 February. I provided further clarification of that matter on 25 February to the former Secretary General as he has acknowledged to this committee. I am not aware that he approached the person who commissioned the report, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, on the matter at the time and he has not said so in his evidence to the committee. I am, therefore, not a little surprised at the content and tenor of his remarks on the matter to the committee.

It might be noted that neither the then Minister, Ministers of State or special advisers to the Minister sought a copy of the report from me before its submission to the Tánaiste — presumably in the knowledge that it would be inappropriate to do so. Nor did they subsequently indicate that this should have happened even where their actions or inactions were criticised in the report. On the logic of the former Secretary General, they would equally have been entitled to a pre-submission copy of the report. If they had sought such a copy, it would also have been refused.

It would have been highly inappropriate and incorrect on my part to provide any person with a copy of the report in advance of its submission to the Tánaiste. Any suggestion that persons whose actions or inactions were subject to investigation under the terms of reference for the report should be given an opportunity to shape or influence the conclusions to be drawn by the person requested to undertake the investigation from the facts adduced and set out in the report would be highly irregular.

I have no doubt that the former Secretary General was given full, fair and proper opportunity without restriction to set out, as comprehensively and clearly as he wished, his version of events surrounding the issues subject to investigation under the terms of reference for the report. That was a right to which he was entitled and which he fully received.

The matter of the publication of the report has been raised. I was asked to prepare the report under the terms of reference assigned to me and submit it to the Tánaiste within a relatively short period. The matter of the publication of the report was a different matter which lay to be determined elsewhere. I would expect and understand that this was a matter on which the advice of the Attorney General would have been sought. I assume, therefore, that this is a matter that was dealt with in a fully correct and appropriate way.

The third issue that has been raised is that only the final version of the different versions of the statement provided by the then Secretary General of the Department regarding the follow-up to the submission prepared for issue to the Attorney General in January 2004, as set out at paragraph 4.57 of the report, should have been included in the report. I outlined in my evidence to the committee on 12 April, which is set out on page 46 of the transcript of proceedings, the background to the decision I took to invite the then Secretary General on 25 February to prepare a statement for full inclusion in the report. I attach, as Annexe 2 to this presentation, a copy of the letter which I sent to the then Secretary General on 25 January 2005 on the matter.

My decision to invite the then Secretary General to prepare a statement arose, as I indicated to the committee, on 12 April because I came to the conclusion that it would be more satisfactory if he himself prepared a statement of events for full inclusion in the report rather than that I attempt to do it solely on the basis of the discussions I had undertaken with him. The reason for this is that I had attempted to reflect what I had heard from the then Secretary General in a number of drafts but had difficulty with some of the changes with regard to the interpretation of events, as I had understood them from our discussions, that he suggested I make to these drafts. This remains the position.

The former Secretary General, in his statement to the committee on 20 April, which is set out on pages 55-56 of the transcript of proceedings, indicated that this difficulty related solely to the recording of the recollection of one official with regard to seeing the "missing folder" containing the letter and material prepared in January 2004 for the then Secretary General to send to the Attorney General in the outer office of the Minister. This is not correct. As I informed the committee on 12 April, which is set out on page 47 of the transcript of proceedings, the material included in the report regarding that matter had been co-drafted and initialled by the official concerned. I was reluctant to record in my report a version of that matter proposed by the then Secretary General and which differed to what the official concerned had co-drafted and initialled. From my discussions with him at the time, I understand that the then Secretary General was aware that the relevant material in the report on this matter had been co-drafted with me by the official concerned.

There were also other issues to which the former Secretary General did not refer in his discussion regarding this matter with the committee. One such issue related to the evidence that another official who worked in the Minister's office provided in respect of the matter of the sighting or nonsighting of the "missing folder" and the discussion or non-discussion between the two officials concerned with regard to the folder. I did not share with the then Secretary General a congruence of view regarding how the recollection of this official in respect of his stated recollection of events might be recorded in the report. Again, what I considered to be the most appropriate approach on this matter was, as with the other official, to invite this official to also co-draft with me the relevant material for inclusion in the report. The second official did this and also initialled it. I have absolutely no doubt but that the procedure adopted with regard to the recording of the two officials concerned was absolutely the correct and proper approach to adopt. It was for these reasons that I invited the then Secretary General to also prepare his own statement of events for full inclusion in the report. The former Secretary General has expressed to the committee his reservations regarding the inclusion of the four versions of his statement in the report. I have no doubt but that it was correct to include the four versions. This is for the following reasons.

The issues to be covered in the statement were not new. They had been under detailed consideration by the then Secretary General for many weeks and some of them had been under detailed consideration for several months. They had been the subject of detailed discussion with me on a number of occasions in the previous weeks and a number of drafts had, as indicated, already been prepared for inclusion in the report. The different versions of the statements were on record, including their transfer across organisational IT systems. If they had not been referred to in the report and the existence of the different versions subsequently became known, their omission would, justifiably, have been criticised. I was aware that one of the two officials referred to in the then Secretary General's statement had expressed concern to me with regard to the relative way in which reference was made to the evidence of the two officials in the statement. It is the case that there are differences of significance on this matter in the different versions of the statements which the then Secretary General prepared. In these circumstances, it would have been entirely inappropriate not to include the different versions in the report. It is not a case of being fair only to the former Secretary General. It is a case of being fair also to other people concerned and to the integrity of the terms of reference for the report. It might be noted that the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, was asked to provide a statement for inclusion in the report within a similarly tight deadline as that to which the former Secretary General was asked to respond. In doing so, he provided just one version of his statement. I consider any suggestion that such relevant material should have been suppressed from the report unsustainable.

The fourth issue raised is that a copy of the e-mail provided for the purpose of the investigation by the official referred to at paragraph 4.54 of the report who, as described in the report, outlined a recollection of seeing in early 2004 the submission made to the Secretary General for transmission to the Attorney General in January 2004 in the outer office of the Minister should have been included as an additional appendix with the other 20 appendices to the report. In my view, no significance attaches to the fact that the e-mails were not included as an appendix to the report, in addition to the 20 other appendices so included. There is clear reference to the substance of the e-mails in paragraph 4.54 on page 48 of the report and at paragraph 4.57 on page 51 of the report and it was also clear that copies of this and any other background paper would be available to anyone as required. A copy of the e-mails, which I understand the committee has already received, is attached to this presentation at Annexe 3 for ease of reference. Copies of the e-mails from another official, which conflict with that of the official referred to are also included at Annexe 4.

Paragraph 4.54 of the report states that one official of the Department who worked in the unit dealing with charges for long-stay care recalls being in the office of the secretariat to the Minister on an occasion in early 2004, being approached by a particular official in the office with regard to the papers at issue and being asked what they were about. The official concerned from the secretariat recalls a conversation between them in the office some time early in 2004 but cannot recall the specific subject matter of the conversation. The official concerned in the secretariat to the Minister has no recollection of seeing papers such as those which he understood had been submitted to the Secretary General in the office of the secretariat at any time.

In keeping with my commitment to consult any official who might be identifiable by virtue of the content of the report, as outlined in Annexe 1 to this presentation, I discussed with the official concerned the wording to be included in the report arising from the e-mails. As indicated, the wording included was jointly prepared with and initialled by the official. It sets out what we both regarded as an authoritative representation of the substance of the e-mails. It is difficult to envisage any more straightforward or correct way of dealing with a matter of such importance to the issues relevant to the terms of reference for the report.

In anticipation of a query as to why two e-mails were submitted by the official who recollects seeing the missing folder in the outer office, the following is the position. The first e-mail of 20 January 2005 refers to the missing folder submission sent to the Secretary General for signature and transmission to the Attorney General. It suggests that the submission was about "the need to change the legislation". A copy of the submission, which I understand the committee has already received, is set out in Annexe 5 to this presentation for ease of reference. The description of the submission as being "the need to change the legislation" appeared, on the face of it, to be inconsistent with the position previously outlined by the Department to the effect that it had not concluded that a change in legislation was required arising from the legal opinion secured by the South Eastern Health Board in relation to, among other things, the charges on medical card holders for long-stay care in health board institutions. As is clear from the submission included in Annexe 6, the substance of the letter and attachment prepared for transmission to the Attorney General was to seek advice on the legality or otherwise of a number of practices surrounding the levying of charges on persons who were receiving or had received long-term care in health board institutions. It also sought advice on the State's exposure to litigation arising from the practices that had operated over many years.

The difference between an affirmative description of the submission as being about "the need to change the legislation" and its more correct description as an interrogative request for the legal advice of the Attorney General on, among other things, the then current and long-standing practices regarding charges for nursing home care is an important one. This is because the Department had not indicated elsewhere to me, nor in its discussions with the South Eastern Health Board in 2003, its belief that the practices in place were legally defensible and sustainable. This is reflected in the title of the background note attached to the submission to the Attorney General: "Background Note with Request for Legal Advice on Long Stay Charges". Accordingly, the possible inference in the e-mail of 20 January 2005 that the Department had in early 2004 concluded that a change in legislation was immediately necessary raised an important question relevant to the investigation I had been asked to conduct and which held very significant implications.

A related issue of relevance to the content of the e-mail of 20 January 2005 was the fact that the Department, as discussed at paragraph 4.28 of the report, had already prepared in 2002 a draft memorandum for Government and associated heads of a Bill providing for the charging of persons who held medical cards in health board institutions. A related briefing note and copy of the draft memorandum for Government had been given to the then Secretary General on 15 December 2003. That was the day before the MAC-CEO meeting in the Gresham Hotel on 16 December 2003. These documents were, essentially, part of the key documentation on which the Government eventually decided to introduce legislation providing for such charges in December 2004. It was for these reasons that I sought clarification in relation to the e-mail of 20 January 2005 and to which the e-mail of 28 January 2005 as set out in Annexe 4 refers.

It is also relevant that the background note attached to the proposed request for advice from the Attorney General in January 2004 included a section 7 under the heading "Existing Legal Advice". This section refers only to the legal opinion received by the South Eastern Health Board in 2002. It makes no references to other legal opinions or advice on the issue of nursing home charges for medical card holders made available to the Department over the years as described in chapters three and four of the report I prepared. These appear to be significant omissions in the context of the request included in the then proposed submission to the Attorney General for advice, among other things, regarding "the State's possible exposure to litigation for imposing charges for long-stay care in health board institutions under the statutory framework set out in the attached note".

The relevance of this to the matters the committee is examining lies in any consideration the committee may wish to give to any contention that the set of papers in the missing folder was conclusive regarding the legality or otherwise of the nursing home charges or indeed that it included any references to legal opinions made available to the Department over the years, other than that of the South Eastern Health Board. The whereabouts of the missing folder has still not been determined. The report states that the explanations provided on this matter are highly unsatisfactory and this remains the case. There has been a great deal of intensive debate on the matter and because of this, attention may have been diverted from the main cause of the uncertainty regarding what happened to the missing folder. The relevant facts, in so far as they can be ascertained, are as follows.

The missing folder was submitted to and received by the then Secretary General at the end of January 2004. The then Secretary General recalls receiving the folder but cannot recollect what he did with it. The then Secretary General's belief is that he "would have brought it to the Minister" but he cannot recollect doing so. If the Minister received the folder from the then Secretary General, the question arises as to what it was doing in the outer office of the Minister waiting to be submitted to the Minister as recollected by one official but not by any of the officials who worked in the Minister's office. Does this mean that the folder was brought to officials in the Minister's office in the first instance? As there appears to be no suggestion that the former Secretary General gave it to any of the officials in the Minister's office, why would it be in the possession of any of these officials waiting to be given to the Minister?

There appears to be no suggestion that the folder was given to either of the Minister's advisers nor were they given copies of it as would have been standard practice from the memorandum regarding the role of special advisers prepared and circulated to staff in the Department of Health and Children in March 2000 by the then Secretary General and to which reference has previously been made in the deliberations of this committee. The former Minister, Deputy Martin, has stated that he never saw the folder. There appears to be no suggestion that the folder was given to the Minister at the meeting which took place between the Minister and the Secretary General on 10 March 2004 as outlined in the Secretary General's statement, nor did that meeting apparently jog the memory of the then Secretary General in relation to the folder and the letter and attachments in it that were to be sent to the Attorney General.

On page 88 of the transcript of proceedings the former Secretary General has expressed his belief to this committee that the disappearance of the folder was an accident and that he does not know where the folder ended up. Leaving aside the issue of adequate follow-up arrangements within the Department, which is covered extensively in the report, the fact remains that the fundamental reason it is not known what happened to the missing folder is that the former Secretary General cannot recollect what he did with it. If he did, it is likely that a number of matters surrounding it could be fully resolved.

In these circumstances, it is unfortunate that other officials in the Department of Health and Children are now bearing the burden of scrutiny arising from what happened to the missing folder. The issue remains unresolved and, as outlined in the report, remains highly unsatisfactory. The events surrounding the missing folder remain one of the fundamental reasons underlying the conclusion of maladministration in relation to the way in which the issue of the illegal nursing home charges was dealt with by the Department.

The fifth issue raised is that the criticisms set out in the report of the operation of the MAC in the Department over a number of years are not justified. In the report reference is made to a widespread perception within the Department of Health and Children and external to it that the MAC of the Department, for various and mainly historic reasons, has been dysfunctional in many respects for some time. The report concluded that this is an untenable situation within a Department, the responsibilities of which affect every citizen in this State and carry major economic, social and financial implications. The report puts forward seven recommendations which aim to improve the operation of the MAC. These are set out on page 84 of the report.

The former Secretary General expressed reservations about these conclusions and recommendations on a number of grounds, stating that the description of the MAC as dysfunctional is not correct, that the conclusion is based on hearsay evidence and was arrived at without meeting most of the members of the MAC and that the recommendations reflect confused thinking on good corporate governance as regards the role of the MAC in the management of the Department.

In his evidence to this committee, the former Secretary General stated that in his view the report's conclusion may have had validity some years ago but not in the past two years. Accordingly, he appears to accept that there was a dysfunctionality issue with the MAC in the not too distant past, one of the periods during which the Department failed to deal effectively with the nursing home charges issue. He also stated in his evidence to the committee, on page 58 of the transcript of proceedings, that on assuming office in 2000 he "inherited a badly divided and demoralised Department, where mutual trust was a scarce commodity". He does not disassociate the MAC from that description, which might be regarded as a reasonable and succinct definition of dysfunctionality.

The former Secretary General, possibly over-modestly, stated that he was moderately successful in restoring positive working relations in the Department, including, presumably, in the MAC. The report pays generous tribute to his work in that respect and states "The Secretary General is credited with significant achievement in addressing this issue in recent years and in bringing greater focus and coherence to the MAC". The report goes on simply to say that the progress achieved requires to be built upon in the context of the new policy-focused role of the Department and makes seven recommendations for consideration.

Despite the improvements the then Secretary General undoubtedly brought to the operation of the MAC during his period in office, it remains the position that in the case of the nursing home charges issue — which is the sole subject matter of the report — the MAC, under his chairmanship, took no steps to follow up effectively on the decision taken at the MAC-CEO meeting on 16 December 2003 to obtain, as set out in the report, the advice of the Attorney General on the issues involved in respect of nursing home charges. The latter was despite the fact that the MAC had been party to that decision. It erroneously recorded at its meeting with health board CEOs on 29 March 2004 that it had already sought legal advice on the long-stay charges issue. It failed to correct the erroneous record of the meeting of 29 March 2004 at the subsequent MAC-CEO meeting of 18 October 2004 but recorded in error that the legal options were still being reviewed.

The former Secretary General is also incorrect in his assertion that the reference to a dysfunctional MAC was based on hearsay evidence. As indicated, the description of the MAC as dysfunctional in many respects is not inconsistent with his description in his evidence to this committee nor is it inconsistent with the views he expressed in my discussions with him while conducting the investigation I was asked to undertake. It is also consistent with the views of a number of the other members of the MAC with whom I discussed the matter.

The former Secretary General is correct to state that I met four of the ten Department members of the MAC during the course of my investigation. I discussed the operation of the MAC with each of them. I also discussed the MAC with the Minister, the two Ministers of State and the two senior advisers to the Minister. The latter are the five other regular attendees at the MAC. Their views also do not constitute hearsay evidence, nor does that of the other officials, both within and outside the Department, with whom I discussed the matter. The inference in the evidence of the former Secretary General to this committee is that the only people whose views have validity when assessing performance of the way in which the MAC functions are the departmental members of the MAC. It seems self-evident that such a view is at odds with common sense and with the accepted principles and practice of modern, good corporate governance.

The former Secretary General considers that the seven recommendations put forward in the report for consideration to improve the operation of the MAC reflect confused thinking on good corporate governance. For ease of reference, I set out these recommendations for consideration in the report. Appointing external members to the MAC with good skills in business analysis and communications to bring a wider and more questioning external perspective to the work of the MAC should be considered. Cross-membership between the MAC and the board of the HSE, in whatever pragmatic format is feasible and operational in order to ensure full understanding and good co-operation between the two organisational entities charged with the formulation and implementation of health policy, should be considered. The report also recommends upgrading the capacity of the MAC to act as an important organ and facilitator of communication both within the Department and external to it. The frequency with which the Ministers at the Department of Health and Children attend MAC meetings should be reconsidered and joint official ministerial meetings between the MAC and Ministers on a quarterly basis with a focus on significant policy and operational issues jointly determined in advance by the Minister and Secretary General should be considered.

The MAC should be used as an important instrument in keeping major items of policy and operation that are in process under review. Members of the MAC should be encouraged to take a corporate view of the activities of the Department and to take a business and analytical interest in areas of activity of the Department which lie outside their individual areas of responsibility. A policy should be developed of moving members of the MAC between different areas of activity of the Department of Health and Children more frequently than has previously been the case in order to strengthen the corporate ethos of the MAC, enhance and widen the competencies of individual MAC members and encourage innovation, inventiveness and new perspectives of thinking in undertaking the business of the Department.

These recommendations put forward for the consideration of the Department are unexceptional and it is surprising that, at least in recent years, many of them were clearly not embedded within the way in which the MAC operated in the Department. If they were, it is difficult not to believe that the matter of the illegal nursing home charges would have been managed more effectively than was the case.

It is also difficult to see where the recommendations put forward for consideration are confusing from a corporate governance perspective. It may be that some difficulty is perceived with the concept of external members sitting on the MAC and or cross-membership between the MAC and the board of the HSE in whatever pragmatic form is feasible given the items of shared agenda and objectives of both organisations. Such a view would be consistent with the consideration that only the departmental members of MAC are in a position to assess the effectiveness of its performance. However, it might be noted that such arrangements are unexceptionable by good corporate governance standards and are already, to my knowledge, working well elsewhere in the public service. As indicated, they are put forward in a non-prescriptive way for whatever consideration the Department considers they merit.

Finally, the sixth issue that has been raised is that the introduction of an amendment to the Health Act 1970 to provide a proper legal basis for the illegal practice, universal across health boards, of levying charges on persons with medical cards in health board nursing homes would not, as the report states, be simply a technically uncomplicated amendment unlikely to raise any unduly serious political or other difficulties in its enactment.

On this matter, the report states that the legislation required was a technically uncomplicated amendment to the Health Act 1970 which would simply have provided a sound legal foundation for existing practice. It would not have given rise to any significant change in what was happening on the ground. The principle underlying the legislative change required was, and remains, well-accepted as fair and reasonable. It has been set out without controversy in successive statements of health strategy over the years that people make a contribution to the cost of health services when they are in a position to do so, taking individual circumstances into account. In the context of the many difficult and controversial decisions taken by successive Governments and Ministers with responsibility for health in the past, a legislative change on the lines required to effectively legitimise existing practice could not plausibly be regarded as one of undue political difficulty.

These points appear straightforward and unremarkable. There does not appear to be any great disagreement with them, apart from a suggestion by the former Secretary General when he states that he is not aware of any Minister, other than the late Deputy John Boland, having shown enthusiasm to introduce such legislation until there was no other option. Ultimately, it is the Minister who proposes the legislative programme for the Department.

The point which needs to be emphasised is that, on the basis of the fundamental legal position, there had been no other option since 1976 — if the matter was to be dealt with effectively and correctly — except to introduce the required amending legislation if the nursing home charges, which are the subject of the report, were to be made legal. It is also simply not the case that making proposals in respect of legislation is the function only of a Minister.

There is a responsibility on a Department to make such proposals for the consideration of the Minister where actions, which have no proper legal foundation, are being undertaken by that Department or its agencies.

In this regard it may be of interest to the deliberations of the committee to note what the Ombudsman had to say on page 69 of his report on nursing home subventions in January 2001. Having concluded that the manner in which the Department of Health and Children had dealt with the nursing home subvention scheme had involved significant maladministration, the Ombudsman goes on to say it is disappointing that

... there appears not to have been any detailed discussion within the Department of Health [and Children] on alternative courses of action, including an option to amend the legislation, when it became clear that the subvention scheme as already envisaged could not be realised within existing resources ... One would expect that, in putting proposals before a Minister, a range of alternatives should be proposed. While senior civil servants, in putting alternatives may be expected to be attuned to political realities, it is surely their role sometimes to put unpalatable options to their Ministers so long as the "pros" and "cons" of the various options are clearly outlined. The Ombudsman has not seen any records which suggest that serious discussion on such alternatives took place.

There are other analogies between the conclusions regarding maladministration drawn in the report of the Ombudsman and the report which is the subject matter of the deliberations of this committee.

In this presentation I have tried to deal with some of the main issues on which the committee sought clarification in my meeting with it on 12 April and on related issues. I hope it is of some assistance to the committee in its deliberations.

I thank Mr. Travers.

I thank Mr. Travers for his long report. It appears that we are almost back to square one in some respects. The first issue that I wish to address is the question of the file in the Minister's office. When I read the e-mail, I viewed it differently to Mr. Travers. Let us imagine that this was part of a civil action in court. An individual states in court that he or she has a clear recollection of seeing the file in the outer office and backs this up by relating it to other events in his or her life at that time. In this particular instance the individual felt that, with a member of staff on sick leave, there might be an increased workload in the Department. This contrasts with the evidence from another individual who claims to have no recollection of seeing the file in the office. There is no conflict here, rather differences in recollection. One of the departmental officials who appeared before this committee made it clear that the feeling within the Department was that the issue had moved to the ministerial office and it would be dealt with there. It was considered that civil servants in the Department would have no further involvement in the issue as it had moved on.

Mr. Travers concluded that the file was not in the ministerial outer office and that it was not possible to ascertain where the file had gone. However, one could argue that the Secretary General is not responsible in this regard because there is no evidence that he did not forward the file to the Minister. In fact, on the balance of probabilities, it is likely that the file was sent to the Minister's office. That is my reading of the situation regarding the file and the thinking of the civil servants in the Department of Health and Children.

Everything Mr. Travers has said today indicates that ministerial responsibility was not properly exercised within the Department during the four years under discussion. The ministerial Acts give responsibility to the Minister, who then delegates some duties to junior Ministers.

The memo circulated by the Minister indicated that his advisers were to be kept up to date. This refers back to the missing folder. Mr. Travers stated that if there was an issue involving the Secretary General, the advisers should have been informed. However, if the folder was sent directly to the Minister's office, there would have been no requirement to inform the advisers. If the folder had been sent to a planning section within the Department, then perhaps a copy of the file would be required by the advisers because it would not have gone directly to the Minister. Therefore, the fact that the advisers were not informed adds weight to the argument that the file was sent to the Minister's office.

When Mr. Kelly appeared before the committee, he spoke about reading between the lines and about the political climate of the day. Mr. Travers stated in the report that there was no benefit to any Minister, civil servants or officials in not introducing legislation to alter the 1976 regulations. The fact is, however, that there would have been considerable difficulties for the Ministers involved in changing the legislation. This issue was unresolved from 1979 onwards. In the 1980s, our economy was in a very bad state and any Minister would have difficulties with the issue. In fact, I believe Mr. Charles Haughey, as Taoiseach, stated that any Minister who approached him seeking additional funds should also bring along a resignation letter. If the Minister of the day had approached him with an issue that could end up costing the State millions of pounds — an issue that Mr. Haughey should have dealt with a decade earlier — he or she would not have had any need to offer a letter of resignation. The Minister would simply have been thrown out the window of the Taoiseach's office. Ministers would have been seriously disadvantaged had they highlighted this issue. It would have been a significant political event to do so and, as time went on, its significance increased. I believe, therefore, that Mr. Travers is wrong on this question.

Much business, including Government business, is conducted without written records being made and the Department of Health and Children is no exception in that regard. Therefore, this committee must read between the lines to figure out what was taking place and if it cannot reach firm conclusions, then no-one should be blamed. Civil servants were very clearly blamed in the Travers report but the failure of those who bore political responsibility was not given equal attention.

Mr. Travers described the MAC meeting as dysfunctional. If there was any situation where the Minister should have shown that he was exercising a firm hand in the running of his Department, it was at that meeting. The MAC meeting involved senior civil servants in the Department of Health and Children and the most senior public service officials from the health boards. It was a setting in which one would have expected the Minister to display a firm understanding of what was taking place within his Department. One would also have expected him to take a serious attitude towards the role of the junior Ministers at that meeting. That is not the evidence, however. That type of ministerial responsibility is not in evidence anywhere in the report from Mr. Travers. The faults in the MAC structure within the Department were being corrected by the former Secretary General, Mr. Kelly, and not by the politically responsible Minister. The Minister paid scant attention to what took place at MAC meetings and the Ministers of State only paid slightly more attention. The Minister's advisers, who have a clear legislative role in advising him, did not even take notes at MAC meetings.

The issue was listed on the agenda as one that merited brief discussion but that was because in-depth briefing documents had been circulated beforehand. These should have been read, a swift conclusion reached and an individual should have been made responsible for appropriate follow-up action. The MAC meeting demonstrates that no political responsibility was exercised. The Minister, Deputy Martin, did not read the briefing notes. He turned up late for the meeting, left the meeting and paid no more attention to the issue. One of the Ministers of State read the briefing note, realised its significance but felt it was not his responsibility.

I wish to make a point. The well established fact is that everybody agrees the right decision was made at the meeting.

The point I am making relates to responsibility.

Yes, but the decision that was made——

If the correct decision was made, who was responsible for following up on it? Ministers and their advisers neglected their responsibilities. The report should focus on this issue rather than on what was said at meetings when the discussions suggested civil servants had the belief the matter had become political. It was a major political issue. If the Cabinet had been informed that a significant problem was about to emerge, it would then have become a political responsibility. Anyone who understands politics knows this. Civil servants thought matters had moved into the political realm. Politicians made a mess of this matter.

I would like Mr. Travers to confirm that the authority vested in the advisers in the relevant legislation was excessive. Does he believe this contributed to the problems encountered?

Mr. Travers made an attempt to dismiss the e-mail by claiming that the recollection of a change to legislation was not reflected in other documents but I do not see any problem with this. A person, believing changes to legislation were involved, might easily have such a recollection. The important point is that the person knew what was being referred to.

Returning to the briefing notes, we must investigate the fact that court judgments were being made. While the South Eastern Health Board believed it would face only one or two court cases, others also arose. There should have been a mechanism in place for Ministers to learn of the affair. We have discussed media reports on the issue. While I would have thought that Ministers had highly tuned antennae with regard to the courts and would have been responsive to any matter which might lead them to the High Court, this was not so.

Mr. Travers might have placed stronger emphasis on political responsibility. The Public Service Management Act 1997 indicates that a Minister has overall responsibility for his or her Department. The most disgraceful aspect of these proceedings is that, despite this legislation, Ministers have abdicated their responsibilities. Mr. Travers's comments indicated that Ministers should respect their offices by taking responsibility.

Will Deputies Gormley and McManus ask their questions in one slot?

I have a difficulty with doing so because of the comprehensive nature of Mr. Travers's defence of his report. I appreciate that we have only one hour left today. While I have no problem with the bunching of questions, we will have to return to this matter after we have had an opportunity to reflect on various issues. This discussion should be considered preliminary.

Is the Deputy suggesting we invite Mr. Travers again?

We will have to do so because many issues have arisen.

To be fair to Mr. Travers, I wish to point out that we have only one hour left today.

Who does Mr. Travers believe bears political responsibility in this area?

Mr. Travers

The Minister for Health and Children has overall political responsibility for the Department and its operations.

I ask the question because the current Minister for Health and Children indicated this morning that she felt it was the responsibility of the Minister of State with devolved powers.

Mr. Travers

I understood I was asked who was responsible for the Department.

I did not mention the Department but this area.

When was that said? I did not hear it being said.

She said she had given space to the Ministers of State. It is better to have accuracy.

We do not want to mislead Mr. Travers

The Tánaiste indicated this morning that the Minister of State had responsibility for this area with devolved powers. Due to the seriousness of the situation and a Minister of State had been newly appointed, she took responsibility. Is Mr. Travers of the view that the Minister for Health and Children has responsibility?

Mr. Travers

What I said was that the responsible Minister in any Department had overall political responsibility for the functions and operations of that Department.

This morning the Tánaiste indicated that the former Secretary General had knowingly withheld information. Does Mr. Travers wish to comment on this?

Mr. Travers

I did not hear that evidence and would prefer to comment on it at a later stage. I am not prepared to comment on matters I have not yet had time to consider.

That is fair but I would like to return to the issue later. I commend Mr. Travers on his stout defence of his report but it is unclear who is responsible. There is a vagueness between the replies of Mr. Travers and the Tánaiste.

Why did Mr. Travers not pursue the issue of political responsibility as assiduously as he pursued the responsibility of officials? Does he accept that the Public Service Management Act 1997 states "[a] Minister of the Government having charge of a Department shall ... be responsible for the performance of functions that are assigned to the Department", and that in reference to this issue the Ombudsman said "accountability should apply to those actions of which the Minister was aware, or of which the Minister as head of the Department could reasonably be expected to have been aware, or to have made himself or herself aware"?

The Minister of State with responsibility for this matter did not read the briefing material. Another Minister of State who read the report bore a degree of responsibility but because he did not have delegated powers was not directly in the firing line. Mr. Travers was totally inaccurate to state "Ministers could not reasonably be expected to be aware of the full extent of the issues that surrounded the practice of charges for long stay care in health board institutions held in the information base of the Department if these were not brought forward in a clear, convincing and recordable format." When the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, read the documentation, as was his duty, he understood the implications completely. By doing nothing about the issue, he became culpable rather than stupid or unknowing. It is apparent from his statements that the information was unambiguous.

Does Mr. Travers not accept that? The former Minister, Deputy Martin, did not read the documentation and has said ever since that he has no responsibility, despite the fact that he clearly had overall responsibility for what happened in the Department during his time there. I do not want to be critical of Mr. Travers whose report is not, in the main, inaccurate but I am concerned that if it is accepted as being the full picture, from now on every Minister will be able to claim ignorance as a shield and will remain in his or her constituency, do nothing and be protected from criticism. A Minister who tries to take action runs the risk of being held liable for any errors that may occur.

If, as it appears, Mr. Travers is accepting that ignorance is a justifiable defence, there is an inherent problem. That is a central point as regards the report and Mr. Travers's defence of it. If he cannot do so now, will Mr. Travers return to the committee to comment on what was said about the former Secretary General earlier today? I cannot see any indication that the latter knowingly withheld information. I may be wrong, however, and the matter might be worth comment.

To return to the issue of political accountability — I do not have the relevant reference in this regard but it is not important — Mr. Travers stated that there is no record, with the exception of a pink slip of paper, a note, etc., to indicate why the Government in 1987 did not proceed with what the previous Administration had decided to do when the former Minister, John Boland, raised the matter. It is not true to state that there is not any record. The Minister for Health of the day is still a member of the House and it is astonishing that Mr. Travers did not ask him to explain why that decision was reversed. I do not understand how Mr. Travers can state that including four versions of the Secretary General's statement is excusable or explicable.

Perhaps Mr. Travers will consider my next comment and respond to it. It is totally different for him to include first person evidence contained in the e-mail in question, allow it to stand and then include it in a statement of his own and draw a conclusion from it. In my view, that evidence should have been contained in the original document. I welcome the fact we are getting further documentation. However, this is somewhat disturbing because if we continue, as is our duty, to probe, we will be presented with even further documentation. We will never get the legal advice to which we are entitled. Why is the documentation to which I refer appearing now as opposed to being included in the original report?

I thank Mr. Travers for coming before the committee again today. On page 15, paragraph 4, of his transcript it is stated that "The Department had indicated elsewhere to me". However, earlier I believe he said "The Department had not indicated to me". Is the version in the transcript correct?

Mr. Travers

The transcript is correct.

On the question of the advice given on whether the charges were illegal and whether, as recollected by the relevant civil servant, there was a need to change the legislation, Mr. Travers stated that he was informed that such charges were legally defensible. In the defence he put forward, Mr. Travers has traced the history of the advice provided over many years. Has he seen any documentation or evidence to suggest that officials believed, at any stage, that the charges were illegal?

Mr. Travers

I refer the Deputy to the section in the report that deals with an internal departmental memorandum of 1982.

What is the reference?

Mr. Travers

I do not have the page number but paragraph 3.16 states "there is no legal basis whatever for informally changing a person's status from full to limited eligibility".

I wish to return to the question of political responsibility. In layman's terms, the Minister is the captain of the ship and is obliged to go down with it. Does Mr. Travers agree that the former Minister, Deputy Martin — who we might describe as the captain of the Titanic — got into the lifeboat with the women and children and then complained afterwards that no one told him about the iceberg? There is a gap here between political responsibility and the maladministration to which Mr. Travers has referred. I appreciate his coming here today and offering a very good rebuttal but there is no question that the gap to which I refer exists.

Can Mr. Travers take that bank of questions first?

Mr. Travers

It is difficult because Deputy Twomey asked approximately 13 questions, Deputy McManus asked 11 and Deputy Gormley asked two or three. My perception is that I have covered most of the issues in the documentation I have circulated today. However, I will address them again now.

The documentation I prepared for today's meeting is not a defence of the report. A number of issues were raised with me at the previous meeting I attended — other issues were raised at subsequent meetings — and, out of fairness to the committee, I wanted to answer some of the questions that were asked. It would not be correct to interpret the documentation I supplied earlier as a defence of the report. That documentation is a response to issues that were raised at meetings of the committee and it represents an effort to assist it in its deliberations on the matters it was asked to examine and to help it reach conclusions thereon.

I agree with many of the points Deputy Twomey made. They are fair and unexceptionable in many ways. As regards the file in the Minister's office, I have not reached a conclusion on whose version of events was correct in that regard because I just do not know. My function was to establish whatever facts I could in respect of this matter and I did that to the best of my ability. I recorded the views of the people involved, namely, the person who said they saw the file and those who said they did not see it.

In the documentation I issued today, I considered some of the issues surrounding that matter and, on the basis of everything I had heard — both before I came to this committee and elsewhere — my understanding of what the Secretary General said was that his belief was that he gave the file to the Minister. If he gave the file to the Minister, the question arises as to why it was in the outer office of the Minister being prepared by officials for submission to him. It seems the Secretary General had not indicated, to me or anyone else, that he had given it to officials in the Minister's office. That is an issue the committee must consider. I do not have an answer to that. I could only record the facts as I found them.

The Secretary General did not say he gave the folder to the Minister.

Mr. Travers

The Deputy should read the transcripts of evidence on that. My belief is that that is what he said but the Deputy can check the position.

Mr. Travers might tell me where to find that reference because that is not my understanding. I would be happy to withdraw what I have said but I am not conscious that he said he gave it to the Minister.

He said he would have brought it to the Minister but he cannot remember. He could not recollect——

That is a very different comment for a person to make. He did not say "I gave it to the Minister", he said "I would have, but I cannot recollect".

Mr. Travers

The Deputy should read the Secretary General's statement on that and draw a conclusion.

Mr. Travers

I am not saying anything other than what is in the Secretary General's statement.

The then Secretary General's belief is that he would have brought it to the Minister but he cannot recollect doing so——

Mr. Travers

Yes.

——which is not, with respect, what Mr. Travers said.

Mr. Travers

My belief of what I said is exactly what is contained in the Secretary General's statement, namely, that he believes he brought the file to the Minister.

I agree with Mr. Travers.

Mr. Travers

We are agreed on that.

To return to Deputy Twomey's questions, the point I was trying to make is that there is a conflict of evidence in regard to what happened to that folder. I do not know the answer to that conflict of evidence. What I tried to do was set out the various versions of the evidence I received on that and I did so, as clearly and fairly as possible, in the report. Any suggestion that it is otherwise would be incorrect.

On the question that what is in the report regarding the evidence of the officials who saw and did not see the report does not, in some way or other, reflect the correct position, I covered that in the presentation I made earlier. I cannot say any more, other than that I sat down with the official concerned, who had given me the e-mails, and we prepared together the part of the report that reflected the substance of what that person had said to me in the e-mails. With respect to everyone concerned, I cannot see anything that would be more fair, honest or straightforward than that.

Is Mr. Travers disputing the contents of the e-mail?

Mr. Travers

Not at all. Those e-mails were presented to me at my request. I asked the official concerned to send on a record of her recollection of what she had seen in the Minister's office. I then sat down with that official and recorded, for the purpose of the report, exactly what that official wanted to include in the report. If that official wanted to have the e-mails included in the report and had said that to me, they would have been so included. I do not think I could——

Is Mr. Travers disputing the contents of the e-mail we have before us? This is the e-mail we received from that official.

Mr. Travers

No, but there were two points in it to which I wanted to draw attention because matters are not always as clear-cut as they may appear.

No. However, the phrase Mr. Travers picked out from the e-mail and put in his report was to the effect that "As far as I can recall, I said something alone the lines that it was about the need to change legislation". Mr. Travers picked out the phrase "need to change legislation". He then examined what was in the briefing document, which did not refer to the need to change legislation but to the need to examine illegal nursing home charges. That is a little pedantic.

Mr. Travers

There are two or three points to which I would like to respond. The first one is in regard to the description of the document. The description of the document as that which concerned the need to change the legislation was not a correct description in my view because I had read the documents and if the Department had already arrived, at that time and before it had even obtained the Attorney General's advice on the matter, at the conclusion that what was required was a change in legislation, it would have been a very different picture from the position it had outlined to me and others previously that it had a defensible legal case for the practices that were in place. That was a significant point to clarify and to ensure that people understood the exact position. That is why I asked the official concerned to clarify the point of the legislation and it was so clarified. It is not a trivial point; it is a very important point in the context. If one understands what was happening in respect of this area for many years and the defence that was being made of it, it was important to clarify that substantive and significant point and I so clarified it.

The second point I deal with in that part of my presentation was the question of what was in the material sent to the Attorney General's office. The legal advice that was included in the background documents sent to the Attorney General's office referred only to the advice from the South Eastern Health Board. There were many other items of legal advice the Department had received over the years which were not referred to in that document that went across. The fact that those items were omitted from the document was a matter of some significance, particularly in the light of what was being asked of the Attorney General, namely, that he clarify the outstanding liability — or whatever the word was — of the Department over the years. The reason I mentioned that was because this document is now in the committee's possession and if it is considering whether the background documents which were made available to the Secretary General at that time, and which might or might not have been available to other people, provided a full and comprehensive outline of the legal advices that had been received by the Department over many years, that would not be the case. I hope the Deputy understands the point.

I do. That raises another point. We all had the benefit of hindsight when we examined this issue but the impression I am getting from Mr. Travers is that in 2001 or early 2002, it became obvious in the Department of Health and Children, from the civil servants' point of view, that there might be a problem. The fact that this letter and the briefing note being prepared for the Attorney General made no reference to previous legal advice means it is possible that the officials involved were not aware that there was previous legal advice. It may have been in the files but it may not have been known because we know from our meeting with officials in the Department of Health and Children yesterday that there has been a 60% turnover in staff in the Department during the past four years.

If that churning, so to speak, of staff is going on in the Department, it is possible that this corporate memory was non-existent and they were not aware of the problem. In some respects, if legal opinion fell on someone's desk that something was wrong and they were not aware of past issues — the idea complacency might not exist — it would heighten awareness rather than leading to people treating it casually and filing it under previous legal advices.

Mr. Travers

Is the Deputy suggesting it should not be a matter of concern that the legal advices on this type of topic were not properly recorded, filed and kept under consideration in the Department over the years?

It is a concern but perhaps civil servants in the Department of Health and Children had grown somewhat complacent about this issue. One might talk about the idea of corporate memory but perhaps the latter did not exist and when this legal advice was received from the South Eastern Health Board, it would have been treated as an acute problem rather than a continuation of a chronic problem. Those at the Department would be more concerned about it and it may have been passed around.

Mr. Travers

If that was the case, it would represent a significant problem in the way matters were dealt with in the Department — particularly if this kind of information was not kept in a way that was accessible when issues were being examined and analysed.

I can see why this e-mail could be genuine. The officials may have been talking among themselves about the need to change legislation.

Mr. Travers

I agree.

To follow on from what Deputy Twomey said, Mr. Travers is saying there is an inconsistency in that the phrase "the need to change legislation" is inconsistent with the view within the Department at the time. Is that correct?

Mr. Travers

Yes.

Can Mr. Travers comment on the annexe covering long-stay charges — the summary for deliberation?

Mr. Travers

What page is that?

It is in the annexe. It is a draft. It is in Annexe 6.

Is the Deputy referring to the report or the presentation?

I am dealing first with Mr. Travers's rebuttal, which is on page 15, and also with Annexe 6. The annexe covers the current legal deficiencies and paragraph 1.2 contains the phrase "the need for change". It is not a big distance to move from saying that to saying "the need to change the legislation". If one put the two of those together, that is what one would get. Is it tenable that is precisely what the civil servant saw?

Mr. Travers

That there was a need to change the legislation?

It is not that inconsistent, is it?

Mr. Travers

That would conflict with many other things that have been said, namely, that they were of the view that this was a matter that could be dealt with in the context of the wider eligibility issue and that there was no particular need at that point to bring in legislation. The Deputy may recall that a draft memorandum and heads of Bill were prepared in respect of this issue in 2002 and it was decided that there was no need to run with it at that point in time.

This is dated 15 December 2003. Therefore, it is closer to the period concerned. It seems entirely consistent——

Mr. Travers

It would have been the same memo for Government-——

Mr. Travers takes my point that this seems entirely consistent with the recollection of the civil servant. The phrase used, with which Mr. Travers finds an inconsistency, is "the need to change the legislation".

Mr. Travers

The point I was trying to make is that if one looks at the documents — the covering letter, the background note and so on — that were sent to the Attorney General at the time, one would note that there is absolutely nothing in them about the need to change the legislation. Questions, seeking the advice of the Attorney General, were asked. There is absolutely nothing in any of them about putting a proposition to the Secretary General that the legislation required or needed to be changed. That is the point I am making. However, the document was described as a set of documents about the need to change the legislation. That was a significant point for the reasons I described earlier. There is all sorts of significance attached to a belief that the Department might have held in regard to the need to change the legislation in advance of having received any advice from the Attorney General on it. In a sense, I do not need to go into the implications of that; they are fairly clear, if people want to draw them.

Surely one would not ask the Attorney General these questions if one did not consider that there would be a likelihood of changing the legislation. What would be the point in doing so? The context in this regard is that legislation may have had to be changed and that is the reason legal advice was sought.

I want to move on from this issue.

The Attorney General might come back and state legislation was not necessary.

That would be fair enough but one would not ask the question unless one thought that would be the likelihood. One would not waste time. If one knows that something is legal, one would not bother the Attorney General by seeking his advice.

Mr. Travers

I do not believe that is correct.

I want to move on to the next round of questions. We can finalise this point later. I will take questions from Deputies Fiona O'Malley, Cooper-Flynn and Devins and Senators Feeney and Browne.

I thank Mr. Travers for coming again before the committee and for making such a comprehensive presentation. All of us earn salaries for being Members of the Oireachtas but I am not sure whether Mr. Travers is paid for his time here.

How can the Deputy——

Is the Deputy sure about that matter? I am not sure about it. It is important to point out that he was requested and agreed to come before this committee for a third time. That is highly commendable.

I have two questions, one of which arises from what Deputy Twomey said when he referred to the separateness of the administration and the Civil Service within the Department. He said that the matter had moved into the political realm and that it was then no longer of any relevance to the Department. As an experienced civil servant, is this something that Mr. Travers understands? Is there a separateness between the two dimensions or does he accept that there will always be a political dimension to every matter dealt with in a Department and that there is no such separateness? I do not understand that there would ever be a separateness in terms of politics in a Department because it naturally exists. I would like to hear Mr. Travers comment on that.

When Mr. Kelly came before the committee, I asked him, in his role as Accounting Officer, why he sent the letter seeking legal advice from the Attorney Genera to the Minister because it was established that his signature needed to appear on it and perhaps he could have copied the letter to the Minister. We were not able to get very far on that because he accepted responsibility and the shortcomings in terms of what happened. We could not, therefore, probe much further. Did Mr. Travers ask the former Secretary General the reason the letter was diverted to the Minister's office and will he inform us about the information he was given?

Mr. Travers

I understood from Mr. Kelly when I talked to him — and, in fairness to him, from the evidence he gave to this committee — that his conclusion was that the matters which surrounded the seeking of advice from the Attorney General at the time on financial, political and other grounds were of great significance and that, in those circumstances, he felt it was right and proper for him to discuss it with the Minister. That was his explanation to me when I put that question to him and I believe it was also his explanation to the committee. He felt that it was his responsibility to draw the matter to the attention of the Minister.

On the point regarding the separateness of the administrative and political sides of the Department, I agree that they interlink in a significant way. I take this opportunity to repeat a point I made which may not have come across clearly. I tried to cover the question of political responsibility earlier in my presentation as fairly and strongly as I could. I did not say anywhere in the report that there was no political responsibility in regard to the matters that I examined in it. I say clearly, probably more strongly than anybody around the table has said and more unambiguously that there was political responsibility during the period from 1976 through to 2001. I do not flinch from that in the report and I state it again.

I also stated, however, that there was administrative responsibility and, as I said earlier, I could have left it at that and people would probably have been happy that everybody was responsible and nobody was responsible. However, I felt that if I had left it like that, it would have been a derogation of responsibility on my part. On the basis of the information that I saw on the files, I came to the conclusion that, in terms of sorting out the problems associated with nursing home charges that, if the initiatives that should have been taken were taken on the administrative side over the years, there was no doubt whatsoever but that the issue would have been faced and dealt with long before 2004. I came to the conclusion, on the basis of what I had seen and read and heard from those with whom I talked, that there was a greater responsibility on the administrative side than on the political side on that issue. However, I did not excuse or in any way take away from the responsibility that attached on the political side to that matter as well. I cannot be otherwise than as straight as I have been on that. It would be wrong to say that I have not attached any political responsibility to anyone on this.

Mr. Travers says on page 9 of his submission that no briefing note was circulated for the meeting by the Department of Health and Children on these matters. This was for the MAC meeting of 16 December 2003. That is significant because it gives an indication of the mindset in the Department at the time that it did not really consider this matter to be as serious as it was, particularly since it had known about it since the previous February. The latter has become known from other evidence. In the course of his investigation, did Mr. Travers have an opportunity to speak to the people who prepared the briefing material for the MAC meeting and to those who drafted the minutes of the MAC meetings of March and October, which contained inaccurate information about legal advice having been sought and legal options being considered? I put that question to Mr. Kelly but we have not found out who was responsible for it. Mr. Travers might be of assistance.

My second question relates to the issue of natural justice. This is a point I put to the legal adviser of the committee with regard to the report. Mr. Travers explains it well today. I have looked at Annexe 1, where Mr. Travers sets out the assurances he gave the Secretary General. Where a conflict of evidence occurs — throughout this report there are instances where there was a conflict of evidence — did he put this to the parties involved and obtain a response or did he simply see it as his role to put the different evidence into the report and not make any conclusion on it? Mr. Travers says he asked people to review the report and said he would put their comments to the Tánaiste. Did anybody do that? If he gave them a section of the report that related to them, did they comment on it and what became of those comments?

When there is a finding against a person in a report, is it not fair, under natural justice, that they would have an opportunity to answer it just to ensure that there is no confusion in evidence? They should have an opportunity to address it. While the outcome of the report might have been the same, if they were given the opportunity to address it there would at least be a perception of fairness.

The third issue relates to the inclusion of the four statements by Mr. Michael Kelly in the report. When one reads four statements from one person, one gets the impression that the person was dithering and was not clear and crisp about what they had to say, as opposed to the impression one would get from one clear statement. When there is a single statement, one accepts that it is the only statement and there is no arguing with it. Mr. Kelly said in evidence to this committee:

As soon as it became available, I handed Mr. Travers a copy, informed him that it was a rough draft, that I would be refining it over the weekend and would give him the final version later, on Monday 28 February. Mr. Travers accepted the rough draft on that basis.

He went on to say "As far as I am concerned, I prepared one statement which went through a number of iterations in its preparation, all designed to facilitate Mr. Travers in completing his report."

Mr. Travers says in his submission today that the reason he requested this statement was that he attempted to reflect what he had heard from the Secretary General in a number of drafts but had difficulty with some of the changes in respect of the interpretation of events. It appears that, in writing his report, Mr. Travers, although this might not be the case, at times might have had many different drafts of a particular paragraph. He probably would have settled on a final version but, of course, he would not put the three or four different drafts of the paragraph into the report because that would be nonsense. Obviously, over time he considered the matter and finally decided on a paragraph. In fairness to Mr. Kelly on this point, the four statements give a bad impression of him. I believe he said that when he returned to Mr. Travers with his rough draft, Mr. Travers mentioned something he had not considered to him. Mr. Kelly went back and spoke to that official, reconsidered it and included it in his final draft. To be fair to Mr. Kelly, was it proper to include the four versions?

Mr. Travers

I will start with the last question. I tried in the presentation today to explain why I included the four drafts of the report and I tried to explain it as fairly as possible. There were significant differences between the drafts, particularly between the first and last draft. The material we were discussing here was not new material that people were making up for the first time. These were issues that had been under consideration for a considerable number of weeks. We had done a number of drafts that I had attempted to write on the basis of my discussions with Mr. Kelly. The material we were discussing was not new. It was material that was readily mentally available, as it were.

The Deputy asked whether I would have shown parts of the document to officials who might have been implicated in some way in those parts. Yes, I did. I was aware from at least one of the officials to whom I spoke about Mr. Kelly's statement that the official was unhappy with the way the statement had been drafted with regard to his own particular evidence. The differences between the drafts were significant in that respect. As I pointed out in my presentation, it was not just a question of being fair to Mr. Kelly. Other people were involved as well and fairness had to apply in respect of them.

Finally, the documents were on record. They had moved across organisational boundaries for typing purposes and if they had not been recorded and made available and if it emerged subsequently that they were available, the report would have been rightly criticised for not including them.

Mr. Kelly says he informed Mr. Travers that it was a rough draft. Mr. Kelly said in his evidence

As soon as it became available, I handed Mr. Travers a copy, informed him that it was a rough draft, that I would be refining it over the weekend and would give him the final version later, on Monday 28 February. Mr. Travers accepted the rough draft on that basis.

If Mr. Travers had told Mr. Kelly at that point — although perhaps it was not his intention at that time — that he would be including it in the report, I presume Mr. Kelly would have said he would not give him the rough draft but would wait until he completed the report over the weekend.

Mr. Travers

The first thing I did with that draft when I received it was include it in the report. Subsequently, that had to be taken out and another draft had to be included. Then that draft was taken out and a third draft was put in. That draft was taken out and another was put in. The drafts were appearing in the report as it was being prepared. This was on the weekend of 25 to 28 February. The report was due to be completed by 1 March, so the Deputy will understand why I had to include them in the report as I was receiving them.

All of them and not just the final one?

Mr. Travers

I tried to explain the reason. There is a significant difference between the content of the first and the final versions of the statement.

Mr. Travers had to be fair to other people as well.

Mr. Travers

One must be fair to other people as well.

I appreciate that and I do not wish to labour this point. Was the other person concerned happy with the final draft?

Mr. Travers

No.

Mr. Travers effectively made a decision that if the other person was not happy with the final draft, he would show that there were significant differences between the four drafts. That clearly gave the impression, presumably intentionally since Mr. Travers included the four drafts, that Mr. Kelly was chopping and changing. To be fair to this other individual, Mr. Travers wanted to make it appear that Mr. Kelly was chopping and changing.

Mr. Travers

I would not use the words "chopping and changing". My job was to record the facts as I found them. These were the facts as I found them. For me to suppress that information would have been wrong from my perspective.

As regards the question of natural justice, Mr. Travers felt that since he had shown the relevant part of the report to the officials, it had implications. Did Mr. Travers receive any feedback from them on that and was that not included in the report? For example, Mr. Travers showed sections of the report to Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Travers

Yes.

Did he offer any feedback that Mr. Travers presented to the Tánaiste when he handed in his report? Mr. Travers mentioned that it would be wrong——

Mr. Travers

No. I showed Mr. Kelly the parts of the report which dealt directly with him, in chapter 4.

Did Mr. Kelly make any response to that?

Mr. Travers

He made some suggestions that I would have included, where I thought they were appropriate, and I just left it at that then.

Mr. Travers did include it.

Mr. Travers

Since the Deputy asked the question, I also drew his attention to the statement I received from the former Minister, Deputy Martin — or the points that the Minister was making to me — that he had not seen various documents. I also told the former Minister, Deputy Martin, what the Secretary General had indicated in the statement. I did not show them the statements but I told them what was in the statements.

Yes, that is fine. Is Mr. Travers of the view that he fulfilled that requirement?

Mr. Travers

To the best of my ability, I did.

What about the minutes of the MAC meeting?

Mr. Travers

As regards the minutes of the MAC meeting for December 2003, I spoke to the person who prepared those minutes and I saw the various drafts of them. It was arising from the various notes taken in respect of that meeting that I referred to the fact that the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, was to talk to the Taoiseach about it, rather than the minutes themselves. So I looked at the minutes and the notes that were taken from the minutes and I spoke to the person who took the minutes on that particular occasion.

I talked to the person about the MAC-CEO meeting of March 2004. I looked at the notes that were taken by the recorder of the minutes for that meeting. I asked that person who said that and I then talked to the person who said that it had gone to the Attorney General's office for advice. I asked how he could have said that and he said that he understood he was the assistant secretary responsible for preparing the draft document and sending it on to the Secretary General. What he had said was that they had done their job and that they had prepared the background note. They had prepared the draft letter and had sent it on to the Secretary General and they assumed that it would be signed and sent out. However, they did not check that it had been. He just assumed that had happened.

The reason he also said that happened was because he was acting for another assistant secretary who normally dealt with that area of work. He, therefore, had been filling in until that assistant secretary, who was ill, returned to work. When he came back, the Secretary General, who stated at the meeting in March that the thing had gone to the Attorney General's office, had made that assumption without checking it with the assistant secretary.

Yes. I could understand why someone would assume from the March meeting that it had gone to the Attorney General. I do not understand the minute in October where someone said that legal options were being considered, when at that stage no advice had been obtained. So what was being considered?

Mr. Travers

I did not get any explanation for that either.

I thank Mr. Travers for his presentation. I would prefer to deal with specific facts if possible, rather than with conjecture. This is the first occasion on which we have had sight of the papers in the missing folder. I refer Mr. Travers to page 39 of his presentation on which appears a letter sent by a person in the planning and evaluation unit to the Secretary General about the long-stay charges. Does Mr. Travers have a date for that letter?

Mr. Travers

Is the Deputy referring to the date the file was sent on to the Secretary General?

The date that this letter was sent by the person in the planning and evaluation unit to the Secretary General.

Mr. Travers

Yes. My understanding was that it was 27 January 2004. I could check that but I am fairly clear that was the case.

May I bring Mr. Travers on to the letter from the Secretary General to the Attorney General, which is on page 41?

Mr. Travers

Yes.

I am somewhat confused because that letter is dated January 2003.

Mr. Travers

Yes. That was a typo at the time. I checked that.

A typing mistake by the person in the Secretary General's office?

Mr. Travers

No, by the person who sent it on at the time. That should be January 2004. I noticed that and checked it at the time.

I am sorry but I am still confused about the typing error. This is the letter that Mr. Kelly signed.

Mr. Travers

The point about this letter is that he did not sign it. This was the letter that was sent on to him to sign and to send on to the Attorney General.

Mr. Travers

There was a typing mistake made on the date. That should have been January 2004.

On the original letter?

Mr. Travers

On the letter addressed to the Attorney General, with the heading "Charges for long-stay care in health board institutions", on page 41 of the document.

That letter should, therefore, have been dated January 2004?

Mr. Travers

January 2004.

Mr. Travers spoke with the person who made that typing error and he is happy enough with that?

Mr. Travers

Yes.

May I take Mr. Travers on to the facts, rather than the conjecture that has been put forward by some members of the committee? In all Mr. Travers's dealings, does he have any evidence that, at any stage, any of the Ministers were briefed by officials in the Department about these long-stay charges and the legal implications, between March 2003 and December 2003?

Mr. Travers

The answer to that is that I do not. I reiterated that in my presentation. My understanding is that in the evidence given by the officials to this committee, they have also stated that no briefing was prepared for the Minister during that period on this particular issue.

No written briefing. However, there was a verbal briefing.

Therefore, there is not any evidence.

Mr. Travers

No written briefing.

No written briefing.

I am asking Mr. Travers.

Deputy Devins should proceed.

Will Mr. Travers reiterate that for the benefit of the committee? Was there any briefing given to any Minister, of which he is aware from his investigations, between March 2003 and December 2003?

Mr. Travers

The question that I asked repeatedly of officials in the Department was as to whether or not they had briefed any of the Ministers on this matter during the course of 2003. The answer I got to that was that they had not. I asked in that context — obviously it is a redundant question but it was the first I asked — if there were any papers which would indicate such a briefing. There were not.

I am sorry to intervene but what does Mr. Travers call the briefing that was given to the Ministers prior to the MAC meeting? If that is not a briefing, what does Mr. Travers call it?

Mr. Travers

I went through that in my presentation and I think it would be worthwhile reading it. There were two documents prepared for that meeting. The first document was an internal memorandum, prepared within the South Eastern Health Board for the chief executive thereof, setting out three things that I described in the presentation. That was in May 2003. The other document was a summary of the legal advice that had come. That was circulated for the meeting. There was no briefing paper prepared by any official in the Department of Health and Children on that matter.

I apologise for intervening again but I cannot understand that. If the South Eastern Health Board had already done the work, all one would be doing is repeating what it had done. The briefing was in what the South Eastern Health Board had already prepared so it has to be called a briefing. I cannot see any other word for it.

Mr. Travers

Is it not the case that, in the evidence that has been given — at this committee and elsewhere — the point has been made that the Department did not accept that the legal advice was correct? The Department had its own legal advice on the matter.

That is a moot point.

Mr. Travers

If there was to be a briefing on it — even for the Secretary General of the Department or the Minister and the Department — they would have prepared a briefing pointing out the differences as regards their view on the matter and the advice that had come.

They were recommending, however, that the Attorney General would make that, namely, that he would be responsible for making that determination. So, that was inherent in it. One gets one's briefing and if one is any good, one reads it. However, the decision, rightly, is that one refers it to the Attorney General.

Deputy McManus should allow Deputy Devins to complete his questions.

I thank the Chairman.

The MAC meetings in March 2004 and October 2004 referred to legal advice being sought. What is Mr. Travers's opinion about that?

Mr. Travers

I asked about that when I read it in the minutes of the meeting. I said to the official who made the statement at the meeting that it appeared to be incorrect. He accepted that it was incorrect but that he did not know it was at the time he made it for the reasons I described earlier, namely, that he assumed the documents which had been sent on to the Secretary General would have been sent to the Attorney General's office, as recommended in the documents sent forward.

Did Mr. Travers inquire as to how that statement was made at the meeting?

Mr. Travers

I asked why it was made. The matter arose. Somebody must have raised it at the meeting. I do not know who did so. In response to the question being raised, this information was provided by the official of the Department concerned.

It was provided to Mr. Travers. Obviously, we were not at the management advisory committee meeting, so much of what we are going on is what they have said or what is written. How did it come about that the synopsis of the two meetings in March and October stated legal advice was being sought? Did somebody at the meetings say it was okay and that legal advice was being sought or did somebody produce a document saying legal advice was being sought?

Mr. Travers

No document was prepared of which I am aware. I assume it came about at the March meeting because that was the MAC-CEO meeting which was the follow up to the December meeting. It was a natural enough kind of question to arise from a reading of the minutes of the December meeting, namely, that a decision had been made at that meeting to seek the advice of the Attorney General. In response to some question which must have arisen at the meeting, the official said that advice had been sought.

An official said that. Does Mr. Travers know who said it?

Mr. Travers

I know the official and have talked to him. I asked the official how that statement could have been made. The official said he made the statement in good faith and that he believed it was true.

That it was in train already.

Mr. Travers

He thought it was quite clear what should happen. They had done the work and it had been sent on to the Secretary General and they expected the letter to issue.

I move on to this famous or infamous missing file. Mr. Kelly's statement was quoted already today. He said he did not recollect where the file went from his office. Official A said they saw a file and spoke to official B about it in the ante-room to the Minister's office, which we visited yesterday. Official B did not recollect the specifics of the conversation. They also stated that they did not work as the Minister's private secretary. Not working as the Minister's private secretary, they would not have occasion to be briefed about the contents of a file to bring to the Minister's attention. The point I would like Mr. Travers to clarify is that there is a serious question of divergence of opinion in relation to the evidence presented. Of more importance to this committee is the fact there is no evidence whatsoever — I would like Mr. Travers to confirm or refute this — that the former Minister, Deputy Martin, ever saw that file.

Mr. Travers

I discovered no evidence that the former Minister ever saw that file. I asked him if he had seen it and he said he had not. I asked the officials in his office if they had given it to the Minister or if they had seen it in the office and they said they had not. I went through the recollection of the official who had seen it. That official was clear in her recollection of seeing it in the office, so there is a conflict of evidence on that. In any event, I did not come across anyone who said they had given the file to the Minister.

I thank Mr. Travers for his excellent presentation. No more than the last day, it was very clear and understandable. Did Mr. Travers come across any information or evidence that the former Minister, Deputy Martin, was told at any stage that there was an illegal charge in place since 1976 and that there would be an issues of repaying money when it arose? Was money or retrospection ever mentioned in any of the briefings?

I found two differences in Mr. Kelly's statements in the report. He said it was his instinct that he may have brought the file to the Minister. He subsequently said it was his belief that he would have taken the file to the Minister. There is a big difference between instinct and belief. "Belief" is a much stronger word than "instinct". What it indicates is that there may have been a practice of the former Secretary General going from his office to the Minister's office with files. Did Mr. Travers discover if that was the practice? Was there a practice whereby the former Secretary General would go into the Minister's office with files? If so, was it a common practice?

I thought there was a typing error on page 9 of Mr. Travers's submission but I now realise there is not. He talked about December 2003 and not December 2002 and the documentation prepared by officials for Mr. Kelly. It would appear it was prepared for him on the eve of the 16 December MAC-CEO meeting. I did not know this information was there until now. Perhaps I was not listening. I now believe Mr. Kelly had more briefings than he let on. Even when he appeared before the committee, he did not share that information with us, that is, he did not tell us he had a briefing. Did he bring that briefing with him to the meeting on 16 December? Mr. Travers may or may not know that.

It is stated on page 91 of Mr. Travers's report that he is not letting the political side off, and rightly so. He correctly put that on record again today. He said the nature, scale and order of magnitude of the shortcomings were considerably less than those he found on the public administration side. Bearing that in mind, does Mr. Travers believe this problem did not arise four or five years ago but that it dates back to 1976, a period during which there have been 14 Ministers for Health? I say that in light of evidence given by the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children. She explained the breakdown in the relationship of trust she had with Mr. Kelly and that when it reached a point when there was no turning back, Mr. Kelly had to go. Is Mr. Travers saying it dates back to 1976 and that there is no basis to say it came into play only in 2001?

Mr. Travers

My belief is that the problem went back to 1976. That is where the problem started and it continued for almost 30 years. It is difficult at this distance from 1976 to determine exactly what happened back then but the foundation decision taken in 1976 has been found illegal by the Supreme Court. There was legal advice, which went against it at the time and on a number of occasions subsequently. The problem started then and continued until 2004.

The Senator asked whether the Minister was told that an illegal charge was in place since 1976. The charges in place since 1976 were illegal. I found no evidence in anything I received or that was shown to me, which indicated that was the case. That is the point I have tried to make a number of times. If a substantive briefing document had been prepared setting out exactly what the history had been and the various legal advices that developed and mounted up over the years and if such an analysis had been carried out and put forward, Ministers could not but have acted on the basis of such a proposal.

The Senator also asked whether the Secretary General would normally go into the Minister's office with a file. Yes, I guess in every Department the Secretary General will pick up a file and go directly to the Minister's office to talk to him or her about it. That is the norm and that happens frequently.

Was money mentioned in any of the briefs?

Mr. Travers

I came across no references to the question of retrospective liability on charges, except in one instance. Following the introduction of free medical cards for the over 70s in the 2001 Act, there was a briefing on file in the Department in recent years. The latter indicated that if the practices that were maintained subsequently were found to be illegal, a retrospective issue would arise regarding charges from 2001 onwards.

Therefore, there was information.

Mr. Travers

Yes, on that particular issue.

That is the first we have heard of it. That is interesting.

I refer to Mr. Travers's comments about Annexe 6 and the briefing note received by Mr. Kelly. I did not see that document until today. What did Mr. Kelly do with that information? Did he bring it to the MAC-CEO meeting? Did he give it to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children as part of her briefing by him?

Mr. Travers

I am not aware of what the Secretary General did with that briefing note.

Mr. Travers stated that when the over 70s were granted free medical cards, a note was circulated explaining that if, at a later date, the charges were deemed illegal, there would be a retrospective element to the proposed change. Is that documentation in his possession? Can that documentation be made available to the committee?

Mr. Travers

No, I said that was my recollection of some of the documents I saw in the Department so the Senator would have to go back to the Department on that.

I ask that the documentation should be obtained by the committee because it is vital, given that it deals with retrospection in light of the introduction of free medical cards for the over 70s in 2001. Did Mr. Travers establish the number of medical card holders aged over 70 prior to 2001 and the number subsequently?

Mr. Travers

That was not included in my terms of reference. I was asked to examine the history of how this started, going back to the 1970s.

Mr. Travers is not aware of the difference, although more people would have had free medical cards after 2001. The committee is awaiting that figure.

Mr. Travers

That is a separate issue.

However, it could be linked to this issue. Mr. Travers refers, in page 9 of his statement, to a briefing document, including a draft memorandum, given to the Secretary General which specifically mentions the decision to grant automatic entitlement to medical cards to persons over 70 years. It is relevant and, therefore, it would be useful if a breakdown of the figures and the briefing document mentioned by Mr. Travers were provided to the committee. Why do we have Ministers? Do we need them, given the presence of the Civil Service?

To run the country. What is the basis for the question?

I am puzzled because I want to find out their role. I am gaining the impression that Ministers are not there to take decisions and that the Civil Service spoon feeds them. In December 2003 briefing documents were prepared for the senior Minister, the Ministers of State and the ministerial advisers. They were aware that there was an issue. The Minister had replied to thousands of parliamentary questions on it and there was a major question mark over it. The issue should have been pursued by the Ministers and they should have ascertained where the legal advice was at in the Attorney General's office. They did not do so and that was a political failure on their part. Recently, two people resigned from their positions at the Abbey Theatre because of a debt of €1 million but nobody has even offered to resign over this issue, which could cost €1 billion. The people are completely confused and they cannot be blamed for being disinterested in politics when they see what is happening. What is the role of a Minister in Mr. Travers's view?

Mr. Travers

I do not have anything to add on that. As politicians, the members would know to a greater extent than I would what the role of a Minister might be and a number of them have served in ministerial office. The role of a Minister is set out clearly in the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924, which I mentioned earlier. They have overall responsibility for the operations and policies of their Departments.

Does Mr. Travers agree, therefore, that a Minister's role is not purely ceremonial and that there is a serious element involved? Does he further agree that they have their own brains, are able to think on their feet, are meant to be the brightest in the country, should be able to spot problems the Civil Service cannot and are meant to work with civil servants but not depend totally on them?

Mr. Travers

Yes.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children stated clearly earlier that she seriously considered sacking Mr. Kelly on 16 December 2004 because she was angry about information being, as she saw it, withheld. It is clear that Mr. Travers's report got the result she wanted.

Mr. Travers clarified that he did not prepare a report to suit the Tánaiste.

The result of his report was that Mr. Kelly left his job in the Department and that tied in nicely with the Tánaiste's agenda. She made that statement earlier. When was Mr. Travers first contacted to undertake the report?

Mr. Travers

In December 2004. It was the evening before the matter was discussed in the Dáil, whatever that date was.

The Tánaiste had made a decision on the issue and had a clear view on where the buck stopped. Did she speak directly to Mr. Travers about the report and did her opinion come through in those discussions?

Mr. Travers

The Tánaiste spoke to me on the night before that date, I believe it was 16 December——

Mr. Travers

——and asked if I would undertake an investigation into the nursing home charges in the Department. I understood that the terms of reference would be prepared in conjunction with the Office of the Attorney General and would be shown to me by her advisers the next day. This is what transpired. After agreeing to undertake an investigation, any further contact I had regarding this matter was with her advisers on the following day.

Did she indicate in any of these initial briefings that she might have had a certain viewpoint regarding Mr Kelly?

Mr. Travers

She said absolutely nothing to me about Mr. Kelly.

It was purely in terms of reference.

Mr. Travers

Yes. I want to correct a point the Senator made. From the Tánaiste's statements in the Dáil, I understand the decision regarding Mr. Kelly's position did not relate to the report. I wish to respond to another issue which has been raised a number of times. The joint committee must ascertain for itself whether the documentation that was prepared for the meeting on 16 December 2003 represented a briefing or not. The two documents that were prepared came to the Department from the South Eastern Health Board. The agenda and documents for the meeting item in question were prepared jointly between the joint chairmen of the meeting. The joint chairmen were the Secretary General of the Department and the acting chairman of the health board CEOs. These documents were put forward for the meeting, presumably by the CEOs of the health boards. Members must ask themselves — I simply draw their attention to this — whether a briefing was prepared by the Department regarding the issues and if it should or should not have prepared such a briefing for the Ministers at that time.

Who prepared the draft memorandum for Mr. Kelly before the MAC meeting of December 2003? Mr. Travers referred to a briefing document that included a draft memorandum, which appears to have been provided for the Secretary General's information. Was this done by a civil servant?

Mr. Travers

I understand the initial on it is that of a civil servant working in the planning and evaluation unit.

That is fine.

We will return to Senator Glynn, take a final question from Deputy Fiona O'Malley and then return to Mr. Travers.

I thank Mr. Travers. I have listened carefully to him over a period. I am sorry I missed his initial briefing but I have read his document. Two words, namely, "systemic" and "historical", loom large in it. Mr. Travers refers to systemic failure and historical reasons. Some members of the joint committee — I include myself in this — have stated that this has gone on for 29 years. Some members may not agree but Mr. Travers has confirmed it. If the Department was aware of the issue, as perhaps it was, it was one of the best-kept secrets in any Department since the inception of the State. This is mind-boggling, given that it has proved to be such a burning issue. Does Mr. Travers agree?

Mr. Travers clearly gave a response to Senator Browne's point about a Minister's responsibility. A Minister can only act on an issue of which he or she is aware. I understand and appreciate the intense ire of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, when she became aware of it. I would have made the same statements to the Secretary General as she did.

She could have read her briefing.

I would have been as mad as a bear that has eaten sour honey. No one can deny — one does not have to be a rocket scientist — the facts are that Mr. Kelly failed in his duty to familiarise the incumbent Minister for Health and Children about this matter. Mr. Travers has illustrated this clearly and it has emerged in the course of this joint committee's meetings. Anyone who thinks differently is leading himself or herself down the road to nowhere.

I have another point pertaining to the file. Is it the duty of a senior Minister to chase around the office asking if a particular file belongs to him or her and whether it is important? If one wants a Minister to deal with a file, one should put it on the Minister's desk. Like the Chairman, I have held the lowly position of being the chairman of a county council and of a health board. The chairman of the board might be the nearest thing in local government terms to a Minister and one would expect this type of treatment. Clearly, it did not obtain in this case.

I agree with Mr. Travers that there were historical failures, a clear systemic failure and a failure by the Department of Health and Children's administration to do what it should have done, namely, brief the Minister.

I have two brief questions arising from Senator Browne's comments. In order to correct the record, the Tánaiste stated this morning that she was annoyed with Mr. Kelly because of the untruthful briefing that was given to the Government. This is why she was annoyed with him. I wanted to ask Mr. Traver's about the meeting between the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, and Mr. Kelly. When did he hear about that meeting and was he surprised to learn of it? I had a second question but cannot recall it. If Mr. Travers answers the first question, I may return to it.

I have two questions, one of which I have already asked. Why did Mr. Travers not talk to the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy O'Hanlon? I ask this because I have difficulty with Mr. Travers's global view regarding this problem. He has stated that the problem dates back to 1976. No one argues against that point but it is clear that much fuzziness surrounded the issue. Would he accept that there were two tipping points? One was when the former Minister for Health, John Boland, secured the Government's agreement to deal with the legislative problem and change the law. A new Government then took office and abandoned that. This is an important point in time because it demonstrates that not everyone was the same. It was a time when information was available and a decision was made by the Government, which then unravelled. Mr. Travers should have investigated this.

Clearly, the second tipping point occurred after the enactment of the over 70s scheme in 2001. As Mr. Travers has stated, the issue then became crystal clear. We now discover that advice existed within the Department, which the joint committee must examine. Making that point——

Mr. Travers

The report made the point that after the introduction of the 2001 Act, it became quite clear that charges were not fair.

This is my point.

Mr. Travers

However, the report makes this clear.

I stated that the report makes it clear.

Mr. Travers

It has not arisen here for the first time.

I did not suggest that. I agree with Mr. Travers that this point is made in the report. My follow-on point is that the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, was unique. He changed the law, which brought this issue into sharp focus. As a consequence, the South Eastern Health Board procured its legal advice. Unfortunately, the advice is not available to us but it made reference to the fact that the over 70s could not have their medical cards taken from them. The new law had transformed the nature of medical cards. There was a completely new scenario and the Minister was given a briefing document which he did not read. If this was not a tipping point, I do not what it is.

Not once in the report does Mr. Travers criticise Ministers for not reading documentation given to them. Mr. Travers does, however, criticise civil servants for not giving Ministers other documents. Does he not accept that since Ministers did not read the documents they were given, one could have no confidence that they would read documents they might have been given?

I think Senator Browne cast aspersions on the independence of Mr. Travers's report. Could Mr. Travers comment on them because it is as if he was forced to arrive at a decision by the Tánaiste?

I merely asked questions and I accepted Mr. Travers's answer. I did not cast aspersions on his report.

I think Senator Browne queried the independence of the report. Mr. Travers should be entitled to respond.

Senator Browne said that he accepted Mr. Travers's response.

I accepted Mr. Travers's response.

Mr. Travers

Regarding the last question, in my presentation I said that I have worked with many Ministers of many political persuasions over the years. I have always carried out my work with them in a completely apolitical way, which I think has always been accepted. I am sure that when people read my report, they will come to the same conclusion it reaches. I have never held a political agenda of any kind and I should not be required to state this.

Deputy McManus is wrong in saying that I do not criticise Ministers in the report.

Mr. Travers does not criticise Ministers for not reading their documentation.

Mr. Travers

Could Deputy McManus allow me to finish my point?

I did not say that Mr. Travers did not criticise Ministers.

Mr. Travers

I criticised the performance of all Ministers quite trenchantly in the report. The Ministers whose performance I criticised include the most recent Minister for Health and Children who was in place, namely, Deputy Martin. It is, therefore, untrue to say that I do not criticise Ministers in my report.

I did not say that Mr. Travers did not criticise Ministers.

Mr. Travers

All the other points made concerning the over 70s were also made quite strongly in the report. Again, I point out that the position of the over 70s after the 2001 Act was quite clear. I made it quite clear that over 70s were entitled to their medical cards and that there was no legal basis for charging them, which was well known. I pointed out the kind of issues surrounding that and how it was dealt with in the Department of Health and Children at the time. This is all set out quite clearly in my report. Deputy McManus asked why I did not talk with the former Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, which is a fair question. If I had spoken with Deputy O'Hanlon, I would have been obliged to talk with all the other Ministers who served during the period.

Mr. Travers would not necessarily have been obliged to talk to all the other Ministers.

Mr. Travers

My view was that I would have been obliged to talk to them because it would not have been possible to simply pick one Minister out. I could possibly have spoken to all the Ministers if I had more time. I would not have reached a conclusion different to the one I reached in my report because there was nothing on the files which would indicate that any of those Ministers had been briefed with regard to the issues that I was asked to investigate. On that basis, I do not think I would have come to any conclusion other than the one I reached in the report.

I wish to again draw the committee's attention to the terms of reference for the report, namely, when did the Department know, what did it do about it, why did it take the actions it did and what should it do in the future. On the basis of the information I obtained from a very detailed examination — I believe the former Secretary General indicated the number of files that were made available to me, something in the region 4,000 documents — I had more than enough information to deal with the questions I was asked under the terms of reference. I prepared the report on that basis. Members are free to criticise my approach. I am sure they would have done things differently if they had been given the task of drawing up the report.

I am free to criticise the report and I accept that Mr. Travers worked very hard in drawing up this report. I accept that Mr. Travers had a very short timeframe in which to draw up the report and I appreciate all the work he has done. The former Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, was also unique. I have difficulty with the tendency of Mr. Travers to regard everyone as the same. They were not all alike. A decision was made by a Government and this was subsequently overturned by a new Cabinet. Nobody else was in that position, nor was anybody else in the position occupied by the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. The legislation he introduced brought the issue of long-stay charges into clear focus and led the South Eastern Health Board to obtain very important legal advice, which he was given but did not read. This is the point I have been making.

Deputy McManus has made that point and we will return to her.

Mr. Travers

I do not agree with the point made by Deputy McManus.

I asked Mr. Travers whose responsibility is it to ensure that information reaches the right people. Is it the Minister's business to run around offices to ascertain whether a particular file is intended for him? Surely this is the duty of administrators to ensure that a file that is intended for the Minister reaches the Minister? Would Mr. Travers agree with me on that point?

Mr. Travers

There was information in the missing folder that was quite substantive. The folder was not comprehensive with regard to all the issues relating to long-stay charges but it did contain significant information. The committee has copies of it in the documentation that was circulated today. The Secretary General, who was the official who received the folder, had two options. He could have sent a letter to the Attorney General without referring it to the Minister. This course of action would not have been unusual and would have been done in many Government Departments.

I accept that.

Mr. Travers

The second option the Secretary General had was to discuss it with the Minister before he sent it. To be fair to the Secretary General, that was a fair option for him to adopt if he felt that was important. The problem is that he does not recollect doing it with the folder at the time. The problem with the missing folder is that nobody knows what happened to it and the last person who had it was the Secretary General. If the Secretary General cannot throw light on what happened to that file, it is very difficult for anyone else to clearly establish what happened to it.

The point I am making is that if there is a file that has alleged relevance, should it not be on the desk of the Minister rather than in some adjoining office? Clearly, this was not the case with the file in question.

It goes through the private secretary's office.

It is not the job of any Minister to go around an office and ascertain whether a file is intended for him or her. The point I am trying to make is that the file was not put on the Minister's desk and was not brought to his attention.

Mr. Travers

It would probably be unusual for a file of this size and importance to go to a junior official without very clear instructions being given to that official about what to do with it with regard to bringing it to the Minister's attention.

I have a question about the meeting between the former Minister, Deputy Martin, and Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Travers

I knew nothing about this meeting.

Was Mr. Travers surprised to learn about it?

Mr. Travers

I would not say I was surprised to learn about it. I noted that the meeting had taken place and I know the Secretary General has explained the reasons for it. I think he is entitled to this explanation and that he tried to deal with it as fairly as possible.

Mr. Travers said that the last person to possess the folder was the Secretary General. Was it not the case that the last person to have the folder was the private secretary in the outer office or whichever civil servant had been given it?

Mr. Travers

We do not know that. On the basis of the-——

The e-mail.

Mr. Travers

——evidence we have, the only person we know received the file was the Secretary General. The Secretary General has admitted that he had the file in his hands. The problem is that he does not recollect what he did with it next.

We have the evidence from the civil servant who recollects bringing the file——

Mr. Travers

There is one civil servant who recollects seeing the file in a particular location. We have the evidence of other civil servants who say they did not see the file in that location.

They said they could not remember; that is different. They had no recollection. One civil servant made a clear statement — the e-mail was quite astonishing when we saw it — and the other was unable to recollect seeing the file. The latter is a perfectly reasonable response. The two were not comparable. One had a very clear recollection and the other did not have any.

Mr. Travers

If officials in the Minister's office had a file with this importance attaching to it and did not remember seeing it there would be a significant question mark over their competence. It was not just one official who did not see it, others said the same thing including the private secretary to the Minister.

We need Mr. Travers to return if that suits him.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. sine die.

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