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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN (Sub-Committee on High Levels of Suicide in Irish Society) debate -
Tuesday, 1 Nov 2005

High Levels of Suicide: Presentations.

I welcome everybody back to the sub-committee meeting today on the issue of the high levels of suicide in Irish society. I welcome Dr. Siobhán Barry and introduce her to Senator Glynn and Deputy Connolly. I will introduce the sub-committee members as they arrive. Dr. Barry has been commissioned to assist our committee in preparing a draft report on the issueand will attend all future meetings of the sub-committee. She is very welcome and I thank her for her assistance. Deputy Neville will be familiar with Dr. Barry.

Are the minutes of the meeting of 25 October agreed? Agreed.

We will begin with Professor Carol Fitzpatrick of the Mater Hospital child guidance clinic and Dr. Nollaig Byrne of the Mater Hospital child and adolescent mental health service. I welcome both. As they may be aware, the sub-committee has met on several occasions in recent weeks preparing a report to determine how to deal with the levels of suicide in Irish society. We have invited various professionals in the field and we hope to publish a report sometime in November. It will not be a report for the sake of it; we hope to make recommendations also. I ask Professor Fitzpatrick to make her presentation and later we will ask questions.

Professor Carol Fitzpatrick

We welcome the opportunity to address the sub-committee. I will put our presentation into context. I am a consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Mater and Temple Street hospitals. My colleague, Nollaig Byrne, is clinical director of the Mater Hospital child and adolescent mental health service. The Mater service provides a mental health service for young people up to the age of 16 living in north Dublin. We serve a population of 350,000, of whom 78,000 are under the age of 16. There are two accident and emergency departments for which we provide psychiatric cover, one in the Mater Hospital and one in Temple Street Hospital. We deal with suicidal behaviour on a weekly, if not on a daily, basis.

Approximately 50 young people who present with suicidal behaviour are seen each year in the accident and emergency department at Temple Street Hospital. These individuals, aged up to 14, present with varying levels of suicidality, from thoughts of self-harm to serious suicide attempts. They are all seen for psychiatric and psychosocial assessment. In the Mater Hospital accident and emergency department, we see approximately 20 to 30 young people, aged 14 or 15 and with similar suicidal behaviour, each year. Once young people reach the age of 16, they are seen by the adult psychiatry services. However, we understand this will change in the near future.

The suicide statistics in Ireland will be familiar to members of the sub-committee. The overall rate across all ages is 12.2 per 100,000 of population. In young men in the 15 to 24 age range the rate is 24 per 100,000. In young women in the same age range the rate is 4.4 per 100,000. The rate of suicide in young men in Ireland has more than doubled in the past 20 years. Suicide is the leading cause of death in young men in this age group. It is important not to forget that children also die by suicide. Some 34 children aged less than 15 have died by suicide in Ireland in the past ten years.

How much do we know about these young men who die by suicide? We actually know very little. Anecdotally, we feel we all know some of them, certainly if we have adolescent or young adult children we know some of them because they are the friends and colleagues of those young people. However, little systematic study has been carried out in respect of these young people and no published psychological autopsy studies have been carried out in Ireland. A psychological autopsy study is an in-depth interview study with the people closest to the young person who has died by suicide and attempts to clarify the issues which, in the final months of their lives, may have contributed to them dying by suicide. Such studies have been carried out with this age group in the United Kingdom and the United States and details of the references are contained in the documentation provided. From those psychological autopsy studies, we know something about these young people. I stress that we do not know whether the same applies to these young people in Ireland.

When we look at young people, we realise that they exist within families, communities and social networks. Factors at each of these levels impact on young people, just as young people impact on the systems which surround them. Being male is one of the factors associated with young people who are more likely to commit suicide. Males tend to use dangerous methods, or methods from which there is no coming back, to commit suicide. I refer, for example, to hanging. Young people from the lower socio-economic groups are over-represented in the suicide figures in the United Kingdom. That is not the case in the United States, where suicide in young men occurs equally throughout all socio-economic groups. We do not have details of the socio-economic patterns in this country.

Young men who commit suicide tend to be out of school, college or work. Some 40% of them have a history of previous self-harm and some 60% have unrecognised depressive disorders prior to their deaths. Alcohol is involved in the final act of suicide in more than 50% of cases involving young men. It is important to note that just 20% of young men who commit suicide were attending, or had previously attended, mental health services. The services with which the Mater Hospital's guidance clinic works tend not, by and large, to be in contact with the young men to whom I refer.

Psychological autopsy studies have taught us that the nature of young people's families can have an impact on their propensity for suicide. The risk of young people committing suicide is increased if they come from families that are not intact, families with a history of suicide or depressive disorders and families in which there is conflict between children and parents. There are also some risk factors in the community. Suicide involving young people sometimes occurs in clusters in communities. On many occasions during the past ten years, the death of a young person by suicide has been closely followed by a number of other deaths by suicide in the same community.

As already stated, alcohol plays a part in suicide. Ireland has one of the highest rates of alcohol use by young people in Europe. I do not think we can examine the role of alcohol in the life of young people without looking at the role of alcohol in Irish life and society in general. It has been suggested that the change in the role of men and the rapid development of Irish society during the past 20 years have contributed to suicide among young men. This may be a further factor. Research has indicated that certain factors protect young people against suicide. Young people who come from a cohesive family or who have a religious conviction are less likely to commit suicide. That the roles of the family and the Catholic church in society have changed radically and quickly in the past ten years may be a further factor in the increase in suicide rates in young men.

I had hoped to highlight a particular project, called Working Things Out, which has been developed by 11 young people who have attended the Mater Hospital's guidance clinic over recent years. The young people in question, who presented to the hospital with depressive disorders, suicidal behaviour and other mental health problems, have told their stories on CD and DVD. In particular, they have spoken about what helped them to get through their difficulties. It is a pity that the sound is not working on the CD in this room because I would have liked to have played an extract for the committee. I will give a copy of the CD to members so they can listen to it later. The comments of the young people on the CD bring their stories to life and would have made this presentation much more interesting.

The importance to young people of being able to talk to somebody about how they are feeling is one of the main things to have come from the Working Things Out project. Many young men have said the turning point for them in their attempts to cope with their difficulties was when they became able to talk to somebody about their feelings. Much of our work in dealing with young people with suicidal behaviours involves supporting them to be able to tell somebody about how they feel.

What can mental health services do? We can certainly help parents, carers and teachers to recognise young people at risk by means of education and making people more aware that depressive disorders and risk factors for suicide can be detected if one knows for what one is looking. We can develop mental health promotion programmes for schools and the Mater Hospital is doing this, working with the social, personal and health education programme — SPHE programme — which is part of the curriculum in first, second and third years in post-primary schools. We are carrying out a pilot study which aims to significantly increase the mental health promotion component of the SPHE programme by incorporating into it some of the stories from Working Things Out and by providing teacher training and undertaking activities with young people.

These are some of the things we can do but there are number of things we currently cannot do. As mental health professionals, we are not able to provide accessible mental health services which are user friendly for adolescents. Currently, only one community based specific adolescent service operates in the Dublin area. Adolescents up to the age of 16 years are referred, if at all, to the routine child and adolescent mental health services, which mostly have long waiting lists and are physically unsuitable for adolescents because they are strongly geared towards younger children.

We, as mental health professionals, cannot provide safe care for young people presenting to accident and emergency departments with suicidal behaviour. We can provide care for those young people for whom it is safe to return home following their assessments, once they are linked in with follow-up services. This group accounts for the majority of those young people presenting to us. However, we are not able to provide safe care for a significant minority of the young people who present to our accident and emergency departments with serious suicidal behaviour. We are unable to provide inpatient psychiatric treatment to these young people because it is not available. Warrenstown House is the only public inpatient psychiatric treatment facility for children under the age of 16 years. It does not provide an emergency service, the service is available only from Monday to Friday and it is always full. We are in the difficult position of being asked to assess these young people, which includes carrying out a risk assessment, yet we are not in a position to provide them with the service they need.

In our professional opinion it is only a matter of time before a suicidal young person for whom an appropriate care placement or inpatient psychiatric treatment bed cannot be provided leaves or is discharged from hospital and subsequently dies by suicide. If this happens, it will undoubtedly lead to an inquiry which results in recommendations being made that appropriate care be provided for these young people. This will be too late for the young person in question. As professionals, we have done everything we can to advise the hospitals in which we work, the Health Service Executive and the Ombudsman for Children of the danger to these young people. So far, however, this has been to no avail.

The young people in question often do not have families who are in a position to advocate for them. They are some of the most vulnerable young people in our society. We ask the sub-committee to do all in its power to ensure the needs of this vulnerable group of young people are addressed by ensuring appropriate care places are made available for those young people who cannot be cared for within their families. Many of these most vulnerable young people are in need of safe care in the community. Some of them are homeless and others are cared for within the out-of-hours service, whereby, if they are lucky, they will have a hostel place for the night and, if they are not so lucky, they will not obtain such a place. They tend to be on the streets during the day. We also ask the sub-committee to do what it can to ensure that inpatient adolescent psychiatric treatment facilities are made available for the small group of adolescents for whom this is necessary.

I welcome Professor Fitzpatrick and Dr. Byrne and thank them for their interesting presentation. The last point made was that this is an accident waiting to happen but surely it is happening already. It is happening every day. Suicidal people are being discharged from hospital or not being admitted to psychiatric hospitals. Their families know they are suicidal. People in those situations are taking their lives. This is a disastrous state of affairs. Families have come to me seeking help because even though their sons or daughters — it is usually sons — were suicidal, they were being discharged from hospital. I have subsequently gone to their funerals. These things are happening.

Professor Fitzpatrick stated that there would be an inquiry. I appreciate her optimism. We have called for public inquiries to investigate cases where people have taken their lives in hospital. It is almost impossible to get an inquiry sanctioned and in some cases the Minister or whoever was responsible has refused to publish them. That would not happen if a crisis or tragedy had occurred in the general medical services area as it would not be accepted by society but it is our experience in the psychiatric area. Professor Fitzpatrick has outlined the current level of service that is dependent on available resources. These tragedies occur on a regular basis. We cannot put figures on it but we know of instances which include people taking their lives in hospitals. It is true that one cannot prevent suicide in all cases but the absence of services for child and adolescent psychiatry is worrying.

The recent report by the Irish College of Psychiatrists outlined the deficiency in services in bleak terms. Professor Fitzpatrick said she expects adolescent psychiatric services to come on stream but I do not see any sign of that. The excuse we hear is that a report is awaited from the Mental Health Commission. The position has been put in black and white by the Irish College of Psychiatrists. The responses I have received from the health service suggest that there is not a great deal of urgency regarding the development of child and adolescent psychiatric services.

Reports suggest that 60% of young people who take their lives do so due to unrecognised depression. Does Professor Fitzpatrick accept the survey findings which suggest that 84% of people who took their lives were suffering from psychiatric illness? If those suffering from unrecognised depression and other mental illnesses are added to the over 80% of people suffering from psychiatric illness, is it not the case that one of the key ways to deal with suicide is to develop the psychiatric services?

Professor Fitzpatrick stated that there is one multidisciplinary team in the Dublin area. Does she have figures in respect of such teams outside Dublin? I do not know of any fully multidisciplinary team operating outside Dublin.

Professor Fitzpatrick

There are certainly plans to develop adolescent services. Dr. Byrne might like to talk about them because our service is being funded to develop such a service. I understand there are plans to do so throughout the country.

Dr. Nollaig Byrne

The most recent development was an allocation of money for three multidisciplinary adolescent teams. One of those teams will be associated with the Mater service. The staff are not in place as the relevant posts have not yet been advertised.

Our role is to advocate for the development of services for the care of young people. Many other developments to protect young people have yet to take place through all the systems to which Professor Fitzpatrick referred. Our service and services nationally are not developed adequately to provide appropriate care.

I thank the Mater Hospital delegation for its presentation. I agree with it on quite a number of fronts. Suicide has been a problem for quite some time and it is true that it is never too late to do the right thing. Regrettably, however, it is too late for some. A number of factors have militated against the multidisciplinary teams. People will be aware that, from the mid-1970s, there was a cap on the number of Irish-born doctors and that, as a consequence, there is a difficulty in recruiting general practitioners. We might ask why this concerns suicide but it is very relevant because, in many instances, a general practitioner is the first point of contact for somebody with a problem. A well-established statistic indicates that one in three people who attend a general practitioner has a psychiatric dimension to his or her illness or to his or her reason for attending.

Quite a few of the smaller schools of nursing closed down and while they might have been replaced with colleges of nursing in some instances, some time elapsed before this occurred. Consequently, a very unsatisfactory age profile developed among nursing personnel.

The delegates made two points in particular which have a significant bearing on the subject in question. These points concern the protective factors of family cohesion and religious belief. The first part of the presentation referred to the high level of suicide among young men in Ireland. It is true that women are far more inclined to talk about their problems than men. I experienced this during my many years working in the psychiatric services.

Many people, including members of this committee, have referred to the role of alcohol in suicide. It is probably axiomatic that this is included in Professor Fitzpatrick's presentation. The early intervention factor is not present in many cases and its absence is a major risk factor. The breakdown of family cohesion is contributing to a diminution of the protective factor because families are not as close-knit as they used to be. As a consequence, it is reasonable to assume the amount of in-family discussion is not as great as it was in the past.

I have always been of the opinion that religious belief and adherence to the practice of religion comprised a major factor in suicide prevention, although certain recent events put something of a dent in religious belief. I agree with Dr. Fitzpatrick's reference to a tragedy waiting to happen. There is no question that talking to someone can help.

What is Professor Fitzpatrick's opinion of copycat suicide? There was an example of this in Mullingar when three young men who were friends committed suicide, one after the other, which was very sad.

Far more resources and personnel must be devoted to dealing with this problem. That is why I began by mentioning the training of doctors. It is difficult to put a therapeutic team of professionals, doctors and nurses together without having access to the necessary personnel. Are they available?

The presentation was interesting but the statistics are always much the same. One of the most important points is to know about these young men. If we did a full audit of every suicide, we would learn a great deal more about it. People tend to leave it alone after a young person is buried.

We need to know whether these people had tried to access services, whether there were any signs or symptoms or whether they had tried to say something but their words were not heard. It is important to know the point at which things went wrong. We should seriously consider an audit of every suicide.

General practitioners do not have enough time to deal with this problem but there should be a warning system by which a GP alerts the psychiatric services if someone meets certain criteria that might indicate a high risk or a need for further assistance from the mental health services. A person might present with a bad back but might, if their doctor had time to probe, be experiencing other problems.

Many of these people have harmed themselves before and end up in the accident and emergency units of general hospitals. Three or four hospitals might share one individual — I do not know what the workload would be like. There should be no excuse for not following up on these cases and trying to deliver some form of service.

Different values are placed on lives when it comes to investigations and inquiries. If somebody dies in a general hospital, there will probably be an inquiry. If, however, a persons dies in a psychiatric hospital, an inquiry does not usually take place. That is a fact.

I heard recently that a death by suicide costs the economy €1.2 million. That is a large sum when one considers that there were 444 suicides in 2004. If part of that money was pumped into adolescent psychiatry, it would help. There is a great need and if we could pick up on it at an earlier age, it would benefit the individual and society. Those are just some of the issues on which I would like to see a follow-up or which I would like to see the committee tie into its recommendations.

Dr. Siobhán Barry

I would like to ask a couple of questions. How reliable is a psychological autopsy, given that it is a retrospective event? An examination of those who engage in deliberate self-harm might, because so many ultimately commit suicide, give a better idea of what is happening with young people. It might also be helpful for the committee to hear more about what a user-friendly, accessible mental health service for adolescents might be, as opposed to the total opposite.

On whether alcohol is a factor, is there a difference between the ways in which young men and young women use it? While we talk about the issue in the context of young men, it seems young women are using alcohol to the same, if not a higher degree.

Among other questions, I asked the consultants about the availability of personnel. Are they available? What is the consultants' opinion on copycat suicides? On alcohol, there is a suggestion, or perhaps more than one, that another substance might also be involved. Some are even trying to have it legalised.

What substance?

Cannabis. There is a myriad of such substances, including cocaine.

Professor Fitzpatrick

All we can say on the issue of copycat suicides is that they happen. We know that there are clusters, more so among young people in particular geographical areas. One can call this a copycat suicide.

Personnel would be available if there were resources available to employ them. However, a number are already in contact with young people and are crying out for additional support in dealing with their concerns. I am thinking of teachers, guidance counsellors, youth workers and othes in contact with young people. They are crying out for training and help in terms of what they should do if they are concerned about a young person. It seems rather hollow to provide training for them if they cannot access services when needed for young people.

On Dr. Barry's point on having accessible, user-friendly services for adolescents, accessible means that a young person can be seen at the time of referral, not put on a waiting list for six months to two years. It means being able to access a service when one needs it. User-friendly means providing something that will encourage an adolescent to access a centre in terms of its location, its layout and appearance as a place for young adults rather than three year old children.

Is there a strong case to be made for having teams available, not just in the major urban centres such as Dublin and Cork but also dispersed across the country?

Professor Fitzpatrick

I think there are plans to provide such teams.

Dr. Byrne

Yes.

Professor Fitzpatrick

There are plans to develop adolescent services throughout the country but it will take time to put them in place.

One of the main factors which prevents young people from seeking help is the stigmatising of psychiatric illness. Have the consultants noted any change during the years any change with regard to its level? They are talking about unrecognised depression where young people do not recognise their need for help. They see it as life being against them or themselves as unsuccessful. They have no self-esteem. They do not recognise that they have a treatable illness, from which in most instances they can fully recover if treatment is provided early. Have the consultants seen any shift in this aspect during the years? In rural Ireland where the level of suicide is higher psychiatric illness is still stigmatised. It may be easier to access services in urban areas. However, from the outside it does not appear young people, especially those who leave school early and/or live in rural areas, are able to access them. Those who go to college will know of the service offered by the college counsellor.

We know there is a high level of suicide ideation among children and young adults who have been abused either sexually, physically or psychologically, especially where the family involved is dysfunctional. Have the consultants any evidence of this and what is their experience?

Dr. Byrne

Our experience of the matter comes especially from children in care who often present at our services when placements break down. Such children have experienced high levels of neglect, abuse and sometimes sexual abuse. They are, probably, the most marginalised children and do not do well educationally as they have myriads of problems. When they present at the accident and emergency department, we have a high degree of concern for them——

For their safety.

Dr. Byrne

Yes and that suicide might be an outcome.

We cannot comment on the issue of stigmatisation in rural communities as we do not work with rural populations but from our experience, it has decreased in urban settings.

Professor Fitzpatrick

The very fact that young people participate in a project such as this suggests there is a reduction in stigma. The young people concerned are identifying themselves, not as having psychiatric disorders, because that is not the language they use or the way they see things, but as going through a difficult time. They are able to talk about their experiences, saying it as it is, from their point of view. Because of the stigma surrounding psychiatric disorders, we developed this programme, under which young people tell others what it was like for them and how they got help. Many sought help within the family and community and from the services available. The level of stigma is reducing slightly. It does not apply only to stopping young people from seeking a service in dealing with mental health issues but is one of the reasons we are having this conversation about the lack of resources. It cuts through all levels. One of the reasons for the lack of services for people with psychiatric disorders is that, because of the stigma, people feel it is better not to address the issue.

Does Professor Fitzpatrick accept that 80% of those who will take their own lives are suffering from a psychiatric or emotional condition?

Professor Fitzpatrick

Yes, I accept that because there is good research to show and support it.

Dr. Barry raised an interesting point about psychological autopsy studies. When I was a member of the Joint Committee on Transport, a study of car crashes and road fatalities was planned. We discovered very early on in that project that it was very difficult to prove conclusively what had caused a crash because of the impact in percentage terms assigned to other contributory factors such as bad weather, faulty vehicles, human error and so on. I imagine something similar would happen in this study. It would be very hard to find the absolute reason for somebody taking his or her own life. However, I can see the merit in conducting it. Dr. Barry made the point that we should focus on those who present with the effects of self-harm at accident and emergency departments and other places. Perhaps that would yield more information to us. It is very important that research is done.

During the course of the presentation it was stated representations had been made to the Ombudsman for Children. In the light of the fact that 34 children under the age of 15 years have died by suicide in the past ten years, surely the issue warrants the Ombudsman for Children taking it up. What was her reaction and what can she do to aid further progress?

Professor Fitzpatrick

The Ombudsman for Children told us in a letter that the matter did not come within her remit and that she had referred our request to the Mental Health Commission. I have the letter with me if Senator Browne wishes to read it.

Why did she say it did not come within her remit?

She is not responsible for the matter and cannot delve into it.

Professor Fitzpatrick

She said it would come within her remit if there was a question of maladministration within a service but that service provision did not come within her remit.

The fact that there is no service available in some area should come within her remit. I suppose it depends on how one looks at the matter. The sub-committee should take it up.

Professor Fitzpatrick

Wherever we go, it is always somebody else's problem. It is never that of the organisation to which we turn. If the sub-committee could advise us as clinicians who assess young suicidal persons and must house them in general wards in hospital because there is nowhere for them to receive adequate psychiatric treatment, we would be very grateful.

In response to Deputy Neville's question, is it the view of Professor Fitzpatrick that 80% of those who have died by suicide had some dealings with the psychiatric service but that there is no specific body in charge with whom clinicians can deal?

Professor Fitzpatrick

No, I do not believe that 80% of young people who have died by suicide had dealings with the psychiatric service.

My point was that the young people concerned would have been suffering from a psychiatric illness but it would have not have been identified by them.

Do Professor Fitzpatrick and Dr. Byrne feel as clinicians that, regardless of which authority they approach, it refers the problem to somebody else?

Professor Fitzpatrick

I do not understand the Chairman's question.

Is Professor Fitzpatrick saying nobody assumes ultimate authority when she and fellow clinicians refer particular cases?

Professor Fitzpatrick

Usually there is no difficulty in arranging for a young person to receive outpatient follow-up care if he or she requires it. The difficulty arises with the small number of young people deemed high risk who cannot be safely discharged without inpatient assessment and treatment. We cannot access services for them.

I will not point the finger but the State has not put services in place.

I do not have any difficulty with finger-pointing.

One must identify it.

The State has not provided the necessary resources to put services in place. One cannot access them because they are not in place and will not be until they are given sufficient priority by the people and the State. It will not happen until there is sufficient awareness and a demand in society. Those who are suffering are not in a position to demand that services be put in place because of their condition. In addition, their families are often hindered by the stigma surrounding mental health problems to demand that services be provided as part of the health service. The problem continues to be ignored. There have been many plans and reports but little action.

This sub-committee does not set out to prevent the finger being pointed in any direction. It aims to produce specific recommendations to deal with the high incidence of suicide. We are not wearing our political caps. Is Professor Fitzpatrick making the very important point that when persons deemed high risk present, there are no specific referrals?

Professor Fitzpatrick

There is no ability to access inpatient care.

Will Professor Fitzpatrick explain to us in ordinary language what happens when an individual deemed high risk presents to her?

Professor Fitzpatrick

I can tell the Chairman exactly what happens because we deal with the matter on a daily basis.

We would like hear what happens.

Professor Fitzpatrick

When an individual deemed high risk presents to an accident and emergency department, he or she is generally admitted to hospital for 24 hours to allow a proper psychiatric and psycho-social assessment to be made. This assessment involves a psychiatrist and, usually, a social worker or mental health nurse interviewing the young person involved and his or her family. Following the assessment, it is usually possible to determine whether it is safe for the person concerned to go home and be dealt with in the community with appropriate support. It may be unsafe as he or she may be actively suicidal. If it is safe for him or her to go home, he or she will be discharged and a follow up service provided. If it is not safe, we will try to access inpatient treatment but, by and large, this is not available, apart from the single service mentioned. Such persons stay in ordinary beds in general wards surrounded by sick children, although they are not physically sick. We try to secure inpatient treatment services for them but usually do not succeed. As a result, they are discharged to their families, if they are lucky enough to have families. A large number of young people in the care of the State do not have families to go back to and are returned to very unsatisfactory lodgings in the community. I hesitate to call it a care arrangement. They present repeatedly at accident and emergency departments. That is a fair assertion of the matter.

If somebody is deemed high risk, there are no facilities available for him or her and he or she must be dealt with in an ordinary hospital ward, he or she could be there for a number of weeks.

Professor Fitzpatrick

Correct.

How often would patients find themselves in a similar situation during the course of a year?

Professor Fitzpatrick

I can only talk about our service. It happens within the entire child and adolescent mental health service, not just the Mater Hospital.

How often would it occur in the delegation's service?

Professor Fitzpatrick

It would occur perhaps ten times per year at the Children's University Hospital, Temple Street and approximately five or six times per year at the Mater Hospital. The young people concerned spend days sitting in the Mater Hospital's accident and emergency department while we search for another place.

The sub-committee has been asked to make recommendations but what would Professor Fitzpatrick like to see happen? Where should we be going? Should there be a stand-alone unit or services in a number of hospitals? Will Professor Fitzpatrick give the sub-committee some direction as this is an important matter?

Is there a special observation facility? There are times when an adult is transferred to a general hospital. Is there a special observation facility staffed by properly qualified psychiatric staff? If the situation described occurs ten times per year, would it be possible to provide a special observation facility? Would it be possible to provide a side room or area off the main ward where it would be easier to observe the child in question? Placing them among acutely ill children is unsuitable. It was mentioned Warrenstown House closed during weekends. Are patients sent home at these times?

Professor Fitzpatrick

Yes.

Is it a resource issue?

Professor Fitzpatrick

It is as staff cannot be acquired.

How many beds are provided in the facility?

Dr. Byrne

Five children can be cared for on a five day week basis.

That is exactly what I said when I spoke about the recruitment of personnel. Clearly, there is a shortage of appropriately trained personnel to provide the service our guests are endeavouring to supply. I agree with Deputy Connolly. I do not see any reason a facility could not be provided. Personnel are not available in the numbers one would want, which is yet another problem. I agree with the Chairman. If our guests are asking the sub-committee to make a recommendation, they should give us some direction as what they have said is very worrying. Young people need services. If there are ten examples per year at the Mater Hospital, it is ten too many.

In its recent report the Irish College of Psychiatrists identified approximately 45 or 46 beds in Dublin and Galway for the child and adolescent psychiatry service. There is a requirement for some 160 beds. That should be included in the committee's consideration. This information was taken from Government reports. These reports and recommendations on the number of children with difficulties can be referred to by Government. Some 200,000 children, 20% of 1 million children, are in this category. A total of 80,000 children have moderate to severe difficulties and some 20,000 children have severe psychiatric illness and difficulties. Requirements have been researched by the Government and information is with it. The Irish College of Psychiatrists' report is concise and organises information according to these reports. We must take that into account when drafting our report.

Professor Fitzpatrick gave the figure of the number of young people that have died through suicide in the past ten year. What are the figures for people who presented for self-harm in the under 16 age category?

Professor Fitzpatrick

The figures are available in the national parasuicide registry. The total number is some 11,000 but I cannot state how many were under 16. The national parasuicide registry covers all age groups so it would be possible to find that figure.

We heard in a previous presentation that children as young as eight were presenting with suicidal thoughts and problems. I find it amazing that the Ombudsman for Children does not pursue this. While she may not have a role in the service, she should be concerned that no service is available. Suicide affects all ages and in Ireland — unlike most of its European neighbours — suicide affects more young people than old people.

Professor Fitzpatrick stated that representations made to the Ombudsman for Children were referred to the Mental Health Commission. What response was given or what recommendations were made?

Professor Fitzpatrick

We have not yet received a response.

Dr. Byrne

We make representations all the time to several levels and our representations are passed along. We seek a range of services such as crisis beds in general hospitals, specific to the issues of adolescents. This should include inpatient units where young people can stay for treatable mental health disorders. At present, we have no services and if a child presents with suicidal behaviour at the accident and emergency units of general hospitals such as James Connolly Memorial Hospital, Beaumont Hospital or the Mater Hospital, he or she is not given a bed. Instead, he or she is sent home.

What benefits has the advent of psychiatric units in many general regional hospitals brought in addressing these issues?

Dr. Byrne

Children under 16 cannot be admitted to those hospitals. If they are admitted, it is with difficulty and it is not considered appropriate for children.

I accept that they are not appropriate settings.

Professor Fitzpatrick

They are very frightening for 14 or 15 year olds.

If personnel were available, some space could be found. We are returning once again to the issue of personnel.

Dr. Byrne

We will protest against that because it involves adding children to adult services. We want recognition that children and adolescents have mental health difficulties and require appropriate services. Cobbling together what exists for adults is not appropriate.

I do not advocate admitting children who require treatment to adult psychiatric wards. Is there a physical facility that could be made available through the advent of acute units in various hospitals throughout the country? Perhaps two or three beds could be made available. It must be possible to provide ten beds in a hospital within a catchment area. If this could be done, would the necessary personnel be available?

Professor Fitzpatrick

Inpatient needs were already addressed and a report was produced with plans to develop these units throughout the country. We always refer to that when this point is raised. That report was published many years ago. It is difficult to see what progress has been made in our area.

That is the issue for us with regard to making recommendations. I assure the delegation we are not here to cover for the Government. The reality is that when such an issue is presented, all one hears is that a report has been commissioned. In this case Professor Fitzpatrick has heard nothing since a particular report was produced.

Professor Fitzpatrick

We have seen no concrete evidence of any action being taken.

People who have come before the sub-committee in recent weeks indicated that there is a high incidence of suicide among those in the 18 to 30 age bracket. It is clear that the lack of a specific service area of competence and not having a facility or hospital available for the people with whom the delegation deals are obvious reasons for that. The sub-committee is not a talking shop that takes place every Tuesday; it is charged with making recommendations. Is the delegation stating, in definite terms, that, unless specific proposals are made by the Government regarding such facilities, we will have reached a standstill and that nothing will happen?

Professor Fitzpatrick

The two recommendations we made include the availability of appropriate care places for young people in care. That is different to psychiatric units. They are proper care——

Is the delegation stating that none exists?

We can call them what we like so long as they are provided.

I understand Professor Fitzpatrick's difficulty on a day to day basis, her frustration and the fact that she might inquire, having come before it, what the sub-committee is doing. Professor Fitzpatrick asked us to help her. We also need her help in order to make specific recommendations. What does Professor Fitzpatrick see as the way forward in her specific area of health care?

Professor Fitzpatrick

What is needed is access to inpatient treatment units for young people who require it in each health board area. Many of those units could be provided on a regional basis because we are not discussing large numbers. The second recommendation is that safe care should be provided for young people in the care of the State whose placements have repeatedly broken down.

In Professor Fitzpatrick's experience, what length of stay in a hospital bed do these children require?

Professor Fitzpatrick

It is usually relatively short, involving a period of observation, assessment and stabilisation. By that I mean a number of weeks rather than months. Nobody wants young people to spend long periods in psychiatric inpatient facilities.

From Professor Fitzpatrick's experience, ten children present in Temple Street Hospital and five in the Mater Hospital each year. A total of 15 children in a year is a critical number but it is not large. A small number of beds regionally throughout the country would suffice. I imagine that each case requires less than a week's stay in hospital.

Professor Fitzpatrick

A stay is longer than a week but less than a month. Ours is one service. The situation I am discussing applies in each of the child and adult adolescent mental health services.

I thank the delegation for its presentation and recommendations. We will encompass them in our report. We may need to ask members of the delegation further questions on some specific matters.

Sitting suspended at 3.05 p.m. and resumed at 3.10 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Shane McGovern, assistant principal officer at the Department of Health and Children, and Dr. Ann Hope, national alcohol policy adviser, and introduce them to the members of the sub-committee, namely, Deputies Neville and Connolly and Senators Browne and Glynn. Dr. Siobhán Barry has been commissioned to assist the sub-committee in preparing its draft report.

Mr. Shane McGovern

The health promotion unit, in which I am assistant principal officer, is charged with developing the Department's alcohol policy. Dr. Hope is the national alcohol policy adviser to the unit and will make our presentation.

Dr. Ann Hope

I thank the sub-committee for inviting us to come before it. I intend to focus on the link between alcohol and suicide. I will summarise the results of international research on alcohol and suicide and present evidence from Ireland, including a study we conducted among 21 year old college students that provides insights into some of the issues raised in previous presentations. I would also like to concentrate on two areas in which we have made progress against alcohol-related harm.

In terms of international research, we know alcohol is part of the jigsaw of suicide prevention, intervention and treatment. Suicide rates increase with overall alcohol consumption. This is not consistent in every country because of cultural differences but one of the key differences is drinking patterns. The explosive drinking pattern common in Ireland is most associated with increased suicide risk. There is a strong link, documented over many years, between chronic heavy drinking and suicide.

The slide now being projected shows alcohol consumption during the last 30 years in Ireland. Consumption per capita increased gradually over 20 or 25 years, followed by a dramatic increase between 1995 and 2000. The suicide rate parallels alcohol consumption very closely. Acute harms such as alcohol poisoning and chronic harms such as alcohol abuse and dependency also increased. They all peaked in 2001. The highest alcohol consumption, suicide mortality, chronic and acute harms and cirrhosis all happened in 2001.

The issue does not merely relate to the fact that we drink too much, it also relates to the way we drink. This slide combines a series of studies with different age groups. According to the European schools project on alcohol and other drugs, ESPAD, study, one third of both adolescent boys and girls are involved in regular high risk drinking. In the university population there is an extremely high level of high risk drinking. Out of every 100 drinking occasions, 60 become binge drinking sessions for women and 76 for men. There is high risk drinking at every age until it drops in the 65 plus age group. The fundamental issue around our drinking culture is that high risk drinking is not exclusive to one age group but occurs throughout the population. We must tackle it on a society-wide basis because as trying to target one group will not be successful.

Ireland's drinking habits do not compare well internationally. This slide compares Ireland with the UK, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Italy and France, showing a north-south gradient in drinking patterns. Like the UK, Ireland has very high rates of drinking. The Nordic countries have slightly lower rates but the southern countries have different drinking patterns. This is important in respect of suicide because Ireland has the explosive drinking pattern, which involves drinking a lot of alcohol in a short space of time.

For adolescents in the same countries, there is a similar gradient from north to south for both boys and girls. Marginally more girls than boys in Ireland binge drink but the figures are much higher than in the rest of Europe. This is a source of major concern.

Suicide prevention measures play an important role. We conducted the first national survey of 21 colleges and universities in which we examined a range of lifestyle issues such as the role of alcohol in mental health. I will present a brief selection of the mental health issues we studied, in particular the responses from students to questions about their coping skills and how they reacted when feeling depressed or anxious.

The first slide highlights positive coping skills such as a willingness to talk to someone about problems, to seek help and information, or to pray. Members of the sub-committee will see there is a clear difference between males and females in at least two areas. Females are more willing to talk about their problems and turn to prayer in times of anxiety or depression.

The next slide highlights negative coping skills. Members will see that males, whose average age was 21 years and who were full-time undergraduates, were more likely to deal with problems on their own, by ignoring them or taking drugs or alcohol. These are key precursors to depression, anxiety and attempted suicide. It can be seen that first and second year students are less likely to seek help and more likely to try to deal with difficulties on their own. This confirms the statistics that this age group of males are more vulnerable. More work needs to be done to tackle this fact.

What can we do about the matter? We asked students to whom they would turn for help if they were feeling depressed and anxious. The bottom two sections of the slide refer to their readiness to seek professional help. Very few said they would use the services of a doctor or counsellor. Most would turn to a friend or someone their own age. We need to focus on this and see how we can improve young people's coping skills in order that they will be willing to access services as well as turn to friends in times of stress or anxiety.

We compared regular binge drinkers to other categories of drinker to learn if there were differences in the ways each group coped with anxiety or depression. Members will see that students who were regular binge drinkers were less likely to have positive coping skills and more likely to take drugs or get drunk. They were also less likely to talk to someone and seek information. Some students drink to hide anxiety and depression that they could otherwise not cope with but that only makes matters worse.

Since 2000 we have worked with colleges in developing college alcohol policy, something most colleges now have in place. This is an integrated approach which takes into account the campus environment and services. We followed through with the survey and approximately two weeks ago brought all the services together, including student services, student unions, health professionals and health care services, which considered how they could work together more efficiently on prevention and intervention measures with the student population.

Some of the issues brought up by the study are worth mentioning. The transition from secondary school to third level education is difficult for many students. Those who are most vulnerable with regard to mental health and coping skills are first year males. We must solidify programmes that provide for protective factors. Many colleges have put in place peer-led training and mentoring systems, particularly for first year students who are most vulnerable in terms of dropping out of third level education in the first six months and running into mental health difficulties. We hope to see more prevention work being done in colleges and a more integrated approach which has been lacking up to now.

The first interim report of the national task force on suicide recommended increased alcohol taxes. This issue is important and is linked to suicide. The budget delivered in December 2002 increased excise duty on spirits and doubled the tax levied on alcopops. The results for the following year were congruent with the findings of international research that price was an important factor. While the overall level of consumption decreased by 6%, the level of spirits consumption dropped by 21%. Acute mortality rates fell by 14% and the suicide rate by 4%. The rates for chronic conditions increased as those trends do not respond as quickly to a drop in consumption. There were also decreases in the rates for public order offences, minor assaults, serious assaults and drink driving arrests. Clearly, the budget had had an effect. We hope other recommendations from the task force will be implemented.

I thank Dr. Hope for her presentation which contained interesting figures on difficulties experienced in colleges and college alcohol programmes. We know there are higher levels of suicide among those who leave school early and do not get as far as college. Has the Department carried out any work on this cohort deemed to be at higher risk than those who proceed to third level education?

What work has the health promotion unit carried out on the promotion of positive mental health? Relevant programmes would include those that destigmatise psychiatric illness and suicide. What work has the Department done, as we know from discussions that such work is the key to accessing services? The previous submission considered at length the requirement for child and adolescent psychiatric services. There is, however, a need to develop all psychiatric services. There has been quite an amount of criticism of the Department of Health and Children to the effect that investment in psychiatric services since 1997 has dropped from 11% to 7% of the total health budget. What is the response of the health promotion unit? The National Safety Council, which is responsible for road safety promotion, has a budget of €6.7 million and the suicide prevention office has a budget of €500,000, yet 25% more people die by suicide than die in road accidents. Has the Department any plans to respond to that situation? One must take into account the resources supplied to suicide prevention and the psychiatric services, bearing in mind that 85% of those who take their own lives are suffering from psychiatric illness. There is a need to invest in that area.

Mr. McGovern

The health promotion unit has been working with a number of stakeholders and partners in an effort to promote positive mental health and positive lifestyles across the entire spectrum and not just in terms of mental health. I am aware that my colleagues in the mental services recently came before the sub-committee. I am sure they provided it with details of the development of psychiatric services.

The Minister of State is awaiting a report dealing with the development of mental health services from an expert group on mental health. A critical component of this report will be the reports from two sub-groups that examined suicide prevention and the promotion of positive mental health, respectively. The approach to be taken is called a life stage approach, where interventions need to be developed across the life stages from childhood up to older people. The Tánaiste has accepted the report of the suicide group on Reach Out, the national strategy for action on suicide prevention. I accept the Deputy's point about the comparison between budgets. The national office for suicide prevention has only just been established and I am sure it will attract additional resources as it rolls out.

Is the Department expecting that it will receive the same amount in State funding as the €4.5 million given to the National Safety Council?

Mr. McGovern

The allocation of resources is not a matter for me; it is a matter for the Tánaiste and the senior management group within the Department. There are always competing demands. I am sure the psychiatric services will be funded in that manner.

Mr. McGovern has stated that the Tánaiste has accepted the report. However, the Department also accepted the national task force report in 1998 and set up the national suicide review group but the latter was not resourced. The recommendations of the most recent report are not dissimilar because the solutions are the same now as they were in 1998. I am not criticising the new report because it draws attention to the issue. How can we have confidence, however, if the national suicide review group was not funded, even though its responsibility was to oversee the implementation of the national task force? The new suicide prevention office has been established to scrutinise the implementation of the new report but can we be confident that this will happen?

Mr. McGovern

My colleagues from the mental health services came before the sub-committee a couple of weeks ago and I believe they reassured members that the report will be fully implemented. I see no reason this should not be the case.

The delegates may note a sense of frustration on the part of Deputy Neville. This is a matter about which we continue to hear by way of reports. The consistent theme from those appearing before the sub-committee is that they have done all this before and nothing is happening. They wonder whether adequate funding will be made available. As Deputy Neville said, the level of funding provided is minimal when compared with that given to tackle road traffic issues. In making recommendations or trying to advance the debate on the issues surrounding suicide we need specifics, although we are not trying to put the delegates under pressure on the issue. We will file a report in November and if it is no different from what has gone before, it will only damage the case of research into suicide and how to deal with its high incidence. We want to be different and issue recommendations. We want to try, as it were, to demand funding. As the delegates will notice, this is not a political issue. We have all risen above our party political backgrounds to acknowledge we have a serious issue with suicide. We will have no issue if a finger needs to be pointed, as that is what this sub-committee is about.

Does Dr. Hope agree there is an onus on alcohol companies to advertise the downside or bad effects of alcohol? Every evening we are bombarded with imagery on television and other media of the glamorous side of alcohol. However, we are hearing the other side at this committee. While the involvement of the alcohol companies is changing through MEAS, some would say it is not enough and believe the companies should have a direct role in advertising the bad psychological and health effects of over-indulgence in alcohol.

What are Dr. Hope's views on the new strategy to be introduced in England next month permitting 24-hour drinking? Perhaps owing to my membership of this committee, I have heard of all the links between suicide and alcohol. It is amazing that any country would consider moving towards permitting 24-hour drinking. I am sure it has not been discussed at the alcohol policy unit of the Department of Health and Children and assume it does not plan to follow the example set abroad. It would be disastrous to follow that road. Even in Northern Ireland late openings are advocated. While it will not take the 24-hour route, it will alter the licensing laws and give the power of licensing to local councils, on which matter I have mixed views. It could be quite dangerous if that were to happen. What are the views in the Department on those two steps? Would it advocate 24-hour drinking and favour local councils having the power to grant licences for pubs and control opening hours?

Dr. Hope

I will respond to that matter first. The strategic task force had one of the leading world experts on alcohol policy. The research is very clear and consistent that increased availability of alcohol, particularly in a culture where harmful drinking is the norm, which we illustrated is the case from 16 to 60 years of age, would no doubt increase consumption and, in turn, the level of harm. This can be seen in the first slide we presented. When consumption increased, the level of harm increased. This is a very strong consistent finding. As a policy adviser, my advice is that this is not the way to go if we are intent on reducing the level of alcohol-related harm.

Does Dr. Hope believe it would be appropriate for local authorities to issue licences?

Dr. Hope

It has to be seen in a broader context involving many aspects. If one considers the physical availability of alcohol, one would have to deal with the number of outlets, the length of time for which they open and their location. Such factors make a big difference. There has been a huge increase in the number of off-licences in the past ten years. Many licences have been transferred from rural pubs to city pubs or off-licences. There is no point in examining one aspect of the matter, we need to examine all aspects of it. If we change one aspect of the matter, how will the overall dynamic be altered? It is important to examine the matter at local level because that is where change will take place. The many communities which have decided to start to address the issue should look at what is happening and consider the best way of regulating the availability of alcohol within the community.

Can I ask an unfair question? Have the departmental officials met their European counterparts? How can the Government in England justify its decision to introduce 24-hour drinking? It baffles me. It cannot see any logic behind it, given that studies have indicated clearly that increases in alcohol availability and consumption are linked to increases in other problems. Have officials from the Department consulted their colleagues in England? If so, have they tried to justify their position? I imagine what is being done in England is wrong. I would love to hear an explanation from the English authorities for their decision.

Dr. Hope

I sit on two international committees — the WHO's committee on alcohol and public health and the EU's expert group on alcohol and health. The Senator asked about the policies of individual countries within the EU. The alcohol policy framework is quite clear. The Department of Health and Children's policies on taxes, etc., are in line with the recommendations of the WHO. The policies of individual countries are decided outside this jurisdiction. As I said at the outset, research findings clearly indicate that increased alcohol consumption leads to increased harm. I do not recommend that Ireland should encourage increases in alcohol consumption.

I am sure the daft policies being pursued in England will cause a few raised eyebrows and puzzled looks at the next meeting of the international body mentioned by Dr. Hope.

I would like to ask a number of questions. If we are to harbour any hope, we must accept that when we talk about suicide, we are referring to deaths which are preventable if the right measures are taken. If we accept such an attitude, we cannot afford to indulge in a policy of procrastination. I accept such a policy has obtained to some extent over the years — there is no point in saying black and meaning white. I would like to speak about the drinks industry, in particular. Does Dr. Hope share the view that alcopops, the production of which is unashamedly aimed at young people, should be banned? Does she agree with those who say the prohibition of alcopops would be the action of a killjoy? Does she share the view that the consumption of such drinks is a joy that kills, in some respects, when one considers the number of young people, especially young men, who take their own lives? We see examples every day on closed circuit television of unprovoked attacks of a varied nature. I am concerned about the role of alcohol in attacks on young people coming out of pubs. I have seen CCTV footage that shows a person waiting at a railway station being pushed onto the tracks and narrowly missing an electric track by an inch or two. That the person in question survived was more by accident than by design. Does Dr. Hope agree, in light of the role of alcohol in cases of unprovoked violence and in suicide, as borne out by statistics, we need to make a start by banning alcopops? I certainly take that view. I am aware a number of publicans do not stock these products and commend them on their decision.

The presentation's single recommendation is to increase alcohol taxes to reduce the amount of drinking. In some of the countries where people drink less per capita, for example Italy and France, alcohol is cheaper than in Ireland. As Senator Glynn noted, beginner drinks such as alcopops and sachets of drink are the real problem. The latter, for instance, are sold for less than €2 to try to pull children into the net of alcohol consumption and introduce them to high alcohol levels at a young age. Increases in the price of drink make it more likely that students and young people will decide to go out on one night per week and thus result in an increase in binge drinking. The price of drink does not appear to matter to young people when they are out because they have decided to hit the town and will not be diverted from that objective. Will this be a factor in deciding whether to increase alcohol prices?

The sub-committee must commend new advertising campaigns highlighting the damage drink can cause. "Don't see a great night wasted" is one of the slogans used in a series of recent television advertisements which send a strong message. Someone is getting it right in this regard and these types of regular television advertising campaigns should continue. By their nature, such campaigns are slow to have an effect but they will, ultimately, get through to people.

I was left in disbelief when I learned that the authorities in England, Wales and Scotland were discussing the possibility of introducing 24 hour opening times for premises selling alcohol. I understand the authorities in Northern Ireland have decided not to go as far as those in Britain.

Rather than increasing drinking hours, we should address the emergence in almost every town of what are known as Monday clubs aimed at those who do not go to work after the weekend. This is a crazy development. How is one expected to do a week's work after drinking in one of these clubs on Monday? Legislation should be tightened in this regard because this type of behaviour is of no benefit to anybody. Instead of increasing opening hours for premises selling alcohol, we should consider closing Monday clubs.

Will the witnesses address the issue of alcohol companies sponsoring sports events? Participation in sport is one of the healthiest activities in which one can be involved, whereas over-indulgence in alcohol is one of the worst activities from a health point of view. Despite this, sport and alcohol are too often linked.

The main recommendation of the strategic task force on alcohol was to increase taxes on alcohol. I presume any such increases would not be ringfenced for specific purposes.

Mr. McGovern

That is correct, although it was proposed that ringfencing such tax increases would be useful.

Unfortunately, when one considers the alternatives to drinking, people in many places have few other options. If revenue from additional taxes were ringfenced to be spent on developing facilities in towns and villages, we could create an alternative to pubs. From the point of view of sport, I understand more than half our primary schools do not have proper physical education halls. Why should we be surprised if teenagers aged 18 or 19 years do not participate in sports if their interest in sport has not been fostered in primary and secondary school?

Dr. Hope

I will discuss the research, while Mr. McGovern will address policy issues. There is no doubt alcopops are the favoured drink for young girls aged between 11 and 15 years and the most popular drink for those aged under 18 years. Beer is the favoured drink of young males. What we are seeing is that young girls start drinking alcopops and within even two years they switch to spirts. That is of major concern because spirits have a high alcohol content. If girls are seasoned spirit drinkers by the age of 16 we will have significant problems.

As for banning particular products, the problem is that another product will come along to replace it. The tax increase in 2002 brought a reduction in the consumption of alcopops. In this case there was no transfer. An overall drop in consumption was evident so it did have an impact. However, one measure on its own is not sustainable over a long period of time. Alcopops were introduced to the European market from Australia in 1995 and they became very popular. An expert group was formed at EU level at that time to examine the possibility of banning alcopops. Technical problems arose about the definition of alcopops and a ban was not implemented. For a ban to be successful it would need to be done at an EU level because so much alcohol is imported and promoted by drinks companies here.

The price of alcohol does make a difference to the groups most at risk which are the chronic abusers of alcohol and young people. While young people have more money than they ever had before, they still have a limited budget. As a society, we do not drink every day of the week but both adults and young people tend to drink two or three times a week. When we drink alcohol we drink a lot of it. We are also drinking more wine, which we drink with food but we are continuing the binge drinking culture that has developed in the past 15 years.

The evidence shows that campaigns have very little impact on changing behaviour but they are useful as a backdrop to other more significant changes in terms of where one can get alcohol, the price of alcohol etc. The enforcement of the law on underage sales is more powerful in terms of reducing underage drinking. The same is true of the enforcement of the law on selling alcohol to people who are intoxicated. This approach is more powerful than campaigns in terms of changing or reducing harm. We have had campaigns on road safety, healthy eating and smoking but the reality is that sustainable change happens to people and communities.

The research is clear about the link between alcohol and sport advertising and sponsorship. It glamorises alcohol and gives drinks companies a lot of exposure over a period of time, taking into account the number of advertisements on television. This is especially the case with sporting events with a high youth participation which is the case in Ireland. The three sports with the highest youth participation all have drinks company sponsorship. That is reinforcing the message and projecting the positive side of having a good time, glamour etc. We know from international research and from our own research that children are vulnerable, pick up messages and have positive attitudes to alcohol before they even try it. They develop certain expectations. We also know from international research, rather than from our own, that the more children are exposed to advertising, the more likely they are to drink and become involved in heavy drinking at a later stage. This is a complex issue and no one measure will be successful. We need a set of measures that gel. In responding to alcohol-related issues, as to suicide, we need to consider prevention and early intervention in addition to treatment.

It is slightly contradictory to say campaigns do not work while saying advertising by alcohol companies does.

Dr. Hope

I said campaigns do not change behaviour. I refer to campaigns outlining the dangers of alcohol and advocating that one should drink less. The reality is that if one compares the number of advertisements advocating drinking moderately or low-risk, sensible drinking with the number of advertisements for alcohol in every village and sports field and at every festival, where advertisements are evident week in, week out, one will note the volume and intensity of the latter far outweigh that of the former. The evidence is that such advertising inculcates positive attitudes to drinking. Merely watching advertisements does not mean one will go out and drink — this is not what I am saying. I am saying young children in particular are very vulnerable and pick up the messages they read and therefore one cannot rely on campaigns to change drinking behaviour. We noted this from our own research.

I have two questions. Would Dr. Hope recommend a cap on the number and timing of advertisements by alcohol companies, just as more controversial advertisements are shown after 9 p.m.? Surely the broadcasting authorities could structure their advertising so that young people might not see the advertisements in question.

Are we fooling ourselves completely by not allowing the sale of alcohol to those under 18? The law in this regard is being flouted in every part of the country. If I had an 18-year-old or 17-year-old daughter or son, I would have no problem with her or his going out and having only one or two drinks. The problem arises when people in this age group drink more than this. This is the difficulty that arises in Ireland. I am sure the delegates have discussed this at WHO and EU levels. The main difference between Ireland and other EU countries is that teenagers in the latter category can go out, have one or two drinks, stop and go home. We do not have the same culture. Is the Irish age restriction causing a problem? Would we be more realistic to lower it by a year and put in place a system to encourage teenagers to stop drinking after having one or two drinks? I know this could also present difficulties but the existing age restriction is laughable as it is not working.

I am not sure I agree with Senator Browne. We can introduce all the laws we like but the problem is they are not being enforced. Fireworks are banned but people in every town and village in the country have been terrorised by them in recent days. When people in my position speak in such terms we are regarded as killjoys, but the old people who have had to cower behind locked doors when fireworks were thrown in their letter-boxes will confirm my view. One should ask the old people tyrannised by young teeny-boppers who have got a flagon of cider from the local off-licence how they feel when those young people reach a certain level of intoxication. It is a question of enforcement. The problem is that the laws are not being enforced — I do not care who my saying so offends. Let us call a spade a spade for once.

Dr. Hope

A higher age limit, such as 21 years in America, ripples downwards in that the younger they are, the less likely they are to have problems.

Surely that drives them underground too?

Dr. Hope

No it does not. Those involved in the European Schools Project on Alcohol and Drugs have much lower levels, for example, 10% binge drink regularly, whereas here 33% of 16 year olds binge drink every week. Increasing the age limit does have an effect. Enforcement, however, is critical. We have good laws but they need to be enforced.

Why do we not say that? In my area there are regular cider parties. The cider does not fall out of the sky — the teenagers get it somewhere. The same is happening around the country but what is being done about it?

We are talking again about enforcement, as we do in regard to fireworks. We can talk until the cows come home and introduce all the laws we like but unless they are enforced we will talk ad infinitum about the same problem and nothing will change. Let us call a spade a spade.

Senator Browne and others referred to taxation and if possible ringfencing it for specific areas of alcohol abuse.

I and others have met representatives of the drinks trade, for instance, the Vintners Federation of Ireland, the Licensed Vintners Association and others. I must declare an interest because I have been a publican. Most publicans do not want to be associated with under age or binge drinking. They are clear about that because it is not good for their businesses.

People opposed to the sale of alcohol do not accept that is the case. The licensed trade would like to become part of a campaign or fund research into why we binge drink so much and possibly develop campaigns against under age drinking. The groups opposed to the sale of alcohol believe the drinks industry should not be involved in funding such projects. Other groups, however, suggest that if it is regulated and funding goes to the Department of Health and Children or another independent group, it could do what it liked with that funding.

Would the health promotion unit have any difficulty with a system whereby the drinks trade would fund research or campaigns against alcohol abuse, particularly in the under age groups?

Mr. McGovern

We have worked with several partners and stakeholders in recent years to develop responses and reduce alcohol-related harm. We have worked with Departments and the drinks industry, including the vintners, the manufacturers and the off-licence trade. We have also worked with the GAA and the colleges, and several other partners to achieve a synergistic approach to this problem. Lately we have worked with the drinks and advertising industries to deal with some of the issues raised by Senator Browne.

We have very strong research and international evidence which shows the causes of, and responses that reduce, alcohol-related harm. Almost 7,000 people a year die from smoking-related diseases. Some years ago the Government increased tax on cigarettes and ringfenced that money to fund the implementation of the cardiovascular strategy. There is a great deal of talk about reports being prepared and awaited. The two reports of the strategic task force on alcohol were necessary to bring together all the international evidence and the effective responses to reducing alcohol-related harm. The cardiovascular strategy was similar. The ringfencing of funding for reducing alcohol-related harm does not mean all the funds must come to the Department of Health and Children. Dr. Hope mentioned earlier that in reducing alcohol-related harm, increasing taxation is part of the jigsaw. A number of Departments and agencies need to be involved and enforcement is a very significant element in reducing alcohol-related harm. Ringfencing can apply across a number of Departments in terms of increasing enforcement, services provision and intervention. It need not all fall within the remit of the Department of Health and Children. All the stakeholders have a role to play, including the drinks industry.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their presentation. We will consider it as we prepare our report, which we hope to do before the end of November. I thank Dr. Hope and Mr. McGovern for attending.

The sub-committee went into private session at 4 p.m. and adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until Tuesday, 8 November 2005.

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