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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 2007

Vol. 187 No. 18

Pharmacy Sector: Discussion with Irish Pharmaceutical Union.

I welcome Mr. Michael Guckian, president, Ms Liz Hoctor, vice president, and Mr. Seamus Feely, secretary general, of the Irish Pharmaceutical Union, Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin, chairman of its community pharmacy committee, Mr. Dermot Twomey, chairman of the pharmaceutical contractors' committee, Mr. Paul Fahey, a pharmacist from Tullamore, and Mr. Richard Collis, a pharmacist from Phibsboro in north Dublin.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Guckian to make an opening presentation, following which members may ask questions.

Mr. Michael Guckian

The Irish Pharmaceutical Union is the representative body for community pharmacists and has more than 1,600 members who are committed to delivering a quality, accessible, personal and professional pharmacy service that puts the patient first and has, as its primary goal, the optimisation of the health and well-being of society. I thank the joint committee for affording the IPU the opportunity to address it on some worrying developments that have taken place since 20 December 2006 — the attack on the rights of pharmacists to have a collective input into the determination of their fees and the announcement of 17 September 2007 by the Health Service Executive which, if implemented, will mean that from 1 December pharmacists will be dispensing medicines at a loss to Ireland's 1.5 million medical card patients.

I have collated some background information on the community pharmacy network which has been circulated to committee members. I will be happy to answer questions on this aspect of the issue.

If the HSE decision is implemented as planned on 1 December, delivery of the medical card scheme by pharmacists will become unviable and there is a real risk that the scheme could collapse. The average profit per pharmacy, based on 2005 figures for the medical card scheme, was €76,388, which amount barely covers the cost of employing a pharmacist, let alone the other operating costs associated with delivering the scheme. A business simply cannot survive on that basis. The scheme has been sustained until now by the ability of pharmacists to negotiate trading terms with their main suppliers in return for greater efficiencies, for example, prompt payment, placing bulk orders and placing orders electronically at specific times. These business arrangements which can take the form of discounts are vital for the pharmacy business, particularly for the medical card scheme which has been uneconomic for pharmacists to deliver for some time. Incidentally, they do not get a discount on cold chain products such as insulin for patients with diabetes, on controlled drugs such as morphine which are essential for those who need palliative care, or on any medicine purchased from secondary suppliers.

Included in the presentation circulated to members are examples of situations which will arise if the HSE's proposals of 17 September are implemented on 1 December. I invite members to ask questions on those examples.

The cost price of medicines is agreed by the HSE with the manufacturers of medicines under the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association agreement. Pharmacists have no input into this process. They receive a fee of €3.26 for each medicine dispensed to medical card patients. Some 76% of medicines supplied by pharmacists under the community drug schemes are dispensed to medical card patients at cost price. On the drug payment scheme, pharmacists earn a profit of 33% plus the dispensing fee of €2.86. However, this scheme only accounts for approximately 24 of all the medicines paid for by the Government.

The total cost of pharmacy services amounted to €1,189 million, of which €906 million relates to the actual cost of the medicines. Pharmacists were paid €337 million in fees and mark-up, which represents 3% of the HSE's non-capital spend. In the same year the sector employed 13,000 and contributed €243 million to the Exchequer in taxes.

Pharmacists are not responsible for the increasing cost of medicines to the State. The Government agrees the price of medicines with the pharmaceutical manufacturers. The rising costs are due to many factors, including the impact of Government decisions such as the introduction of the drugs payment scheme, the extension of medical cards to all persons over 70 years and the Government's cardiovascular strategy. Other contributory factors include the obesity and diabetes epidemics, an increasing and ageing population and the high cost of many new medicines. However, the effective use of these medicines can reduce the need for hospitalisation for many patients.

The union recognises the need for fiscal responsibility in the provision of health services and that the HSE must address the rising cost of the State's medicines bill. Indeed, the union has been seeking to renegotiate the pharmacy contract with the Department of Health and Children and the HSE from as far back as July 2001. The union has made a number of submissions and proposals aimed at maximising efficiency in the use of medicines, including proposals on increasing the use of less expensive generic medicines and conducting medicine use reviews with elderly patients to ensure patients are taking the medicines correctly and to reduce the wastage of medicines. These proposals, to date, have fallen on deaf ears.

Pharmacists play a vital role in health care delivery but still are one of the most underutilised resources in the health service. The primary role of the pharmacist is to improve health outcomes by safely dispensing medicines and advising patients on how to get the optimum benefit from them. However, there is considerable scope to develop the current level of professional services delivered by community pharmacists through a more comprehensive, structured and organised service. This is now happening in many other jurisdictions and community pharmacists tend to be the link for all health care professionals, with 75% of patients using the same pharmacy on a regular basis. It is important that this service, which is vital to patients, particularly given demographic changes, is allowed to continue to develop to its full potential and is not undermined by the confrontational behaviour and short-sighted actions of the HSE.

I will now bring the committee's attention to developments in the past year. I regret to say that relationships with the HSE and the Department of Health and Children are at an all-time low and uncertainty and concern in the pharmacy profession is at an all-time high. I am repeatedly asked by patients and politicians why relations have now become so strained and what has happened to bring things to a head. A number of factors have been significant. My colleagues have grown increasingly frustrated as they have seen both the Department and the HSE drag their heels in the implementation of agreements. They have seen the right to be represented in a traditional way in the negotiation of fees challenged when the HSE indicated that, in its view, competition law outlawed direct negotiations on such matters with representative organisations. The union was advised formally by the HSE on 20 December 2006 that, based on legal advice received by the HSE, it could no longer negotiate fees with the union. The union was encouraged, however, by statements made to this committee earlier this year by Professor Drumm and the Minister for Health and Children. Professor Drumm said to this committee on 15 February 2007: "We hope to set a reasonable and fair price and have it adjudicated on by people independent of our system". The Minister for Health and Children said to the committee, on the same day:

The HSE will be in a position to negotiate contract details with the IPU but there will have to be an independent process for setting fees. There is a way around it and we hope to find such a process soon.

Both the Minister and the chief executive of the HSE stated unequivocally that there was a need to establish an independent process for the setting of pharmacy fees. However, our experience to date suggests the HSE does not wish to see a process established on this issue, which has implications for a whole range of similar organisations. It is crucial the Department of Health and Children develops a policy on this matter that delivers on the Minister's stated intention earlier this year.

I wish to be clear on this issue. We understand the concerns about competition law. We seek a process that is fair, reasonable and independent and ensures the IPU can fully reflect the concerns and interests of its membership in dealing with these issues. It was to try to achieve such an outcome we proposed what has became known as the Shipsey process. What we cannot and will not accept is the HSE hijacking competition law to bolster its monopoly position as the dominant purchaser of goods and services from the pharmacy sector. On top of all this, and while the Shipsey process was ongoing, the HSE announced on 17 September its intention to unilaterally undermine the basis on which current payments are made to pharmacists. This was done without any consideration of the impact of the decision on the pharmacy sector and without carrying out any economic study on its impact on the delivery of services to patients. In this type of environment, inevitably things will happen that we all wish did not happen and such was the case.

The HSE announced that it would reduce the margins paid to wholesalers for reimbursable medicines on the community drug schemes. This announcement was very misleading. The HSE was not, in fact, reducing wholesaler margins but the price at which it would normally reimburse pharmacists for medicines dispensed to patients under the various community drug schemes, including the medical card scheme and the drug payment scheme. This means that for some products costing, for example, €100, the HSE now states it will only reimburse €91.80.

The HSE made this announcement despite requests by the union that no unilateral action should be taken while talks were ongoing under the chairmanship of Mr. Shipsey, SC. The HSE has acknowledged that, of the projected savings of around €100 million per annum, nearly all will be made from community pharmacies and not from the pharmacy wholesalers. This decision, if implemented, would also constitute a unilateral breach of the contract that exists between each pharmacist and the HSE. The HSE has admitted that it did not carry out any assessment of how its decision would impact on community pharmacies and their ability to provide pharmacy services to patients. In the Indecon report, published yesterday by the HSE, the economic consultants advised the HSE that the timing of significant changes in payment terms was crucial and that changes should be evaluated in advance in conjunction with key stakeholders. It is clear that the consultants warned about taking a cautionary approach to avoid disruption in the sector. The HSE, however, ignored the advice of its own economic advisers and recklessly proceeded with its announcement on 17 September.

If this decision is implemented on 1 December it will threaten the viability of many pharmacies, including those in rural and marginalised areas. It could also lead to the curtailment of services, both at wholesaler and pharmacy levels, which could lead to patients having to wait for urgently needed medicines. This would be unacceptable given that pharmacy is one of the few elements of the health service that works for patients.

HSE officials informed the union at a meeting on 3 October that they made their announcement on the assumption that wholesalers would bring their prices into line with the decree of the HSE on 17 September. The HSE admitted at that meeting that its proposal was unworkable unless wholesalers reduced their prices. This was an extraordinary admission, given the fanfare that accompanied the announcement, and the advice the HSE had apparently received from its own consultants and which it had ignored.

Following the meeting of 3 October the HSE invited wholesalers to a meeting on 8 October 2007. The HSE applied unprecedented and extraordinary pressure on the wholesalers to force them to alter their prices. The three wholesalers were kept in three separate rooms in an attempt to extract various commitments from them over their trading arrangements with pharmacists. Farcically, the HSE indicated that, by keeping the suppliers in three separate rooms, it was overcoming competition law impediments. As far as the union and its members have been informed, the wholesalers and other suppliers will not be reducing their prices.

The HSE indicated on 13 September in a letter to the union that as no agreement had been reached on the way forward, despite the best efforts of both sides over a period of six months, it must now proceed with the reform of the community pharmacy contract. This was four days before its announcement of 17 September. It appeared to the union that the HSE had withdrawn from the process. However, when contacted by Mr. Bill Shipsey at the request of the union, the HSE indicated on 24 September that it was willing to continue with the process and a further meeting was arranged for 11 October. At that meeting, the HSE was not willing to commit to an independent pricing process and Mr. Shipsey decided that he would suspend the dialogue.

Following the withdrawal of methadone services by some pharmacists on 15 October, Mr. Shipsey convened a meeting of both sides to be held on 16 October. After five hours of mediation it appeared that agreement had been reached on a formula to get talks under way. The agreement included a series of commitments from the HSE to deliver on outstanding issues and to postpone implementation of its decision of 17 September for a period of two months to allow time for talks to get under way. Mr. Shipsey drafted the head of agreements of which both parties were required to confirm their acceptance by lunchtime on 17 October. The union indicated its broad acceptance of the proposals. However, Mr. Shipsey informed the union on 17 October that the HSE was unable and unwilling to respond to the substance of the proposal until normal methadone services were restored. He said the HSE had indicated that, if that occurred, it would respond promptly and positively in the belief that agreement could quickly be reached.

Following further informal contact between the parties, normal methadone services were restored and the union sought an early meeting on 24 October to discuss the Shipsey proposals of 16 October. The HSE responded by stating it was not prepared to meet the union until it was assured full methadone services had been resumed, despite the fact they had already been restored. This resulted in further unnecessary delays. A meeting was finally agreed for Wednesday, 31 October under the chairmanship of Mr. Shipsey. While there was agreement on some issues set out in the terms proposed by him on 16 October, the HSE was not in a position to confirm that the 17 September proposal would be deferred. It was then decided that the legal advisers for each side should meet Mr. Shipsey on Wednesday, 7 November in a further attempt to make progress on a possible new pricing process. Progress was made at this meeting and proposals were put by the lawyers to their respective clients, which included immediate negotiations on all issues between the parties other than price and a postponement of implementation of the HSE decision of 17 September.

While the union broadly accepted the proposals, the HSE set down a number of new preconditions. First, it sought an assurance from the union that it would neither initiate nor fund legal proceedings against the HSE regarding its decision of 17 September. Second, it insisted that the IPU undertake, prior to entering into negotiations, that even if the negotiations between the parties were going well and progress was being made, it would not seek further postponement of the HSE decision of 17 September. Third, it indicated it would not be prepared to accept the union nominations of Mr. Kieran Mulvey of the LRC or Finbarr Flood, formerly of the Labour Court, as chairman for the negotiations. It further stated that if the union was not prepared to accept these preconditions, it would circulate a draft revised community pharmacy contract to pharmacists the following week, including new pricing arrangements, for their observations and comments. To add insult to injury, it wrote directly to all our members for a third time on 7 November while talks were ongoing seeking their views on a new pricing structure and contract. These preconditions make progress difficult, if not impossible.

To date, the HSE has systematically undermined all attempts to advance this issue. It is determined to force new arrangements on the sector one way or the other and has no plans to be either fair or reasonable in its approach. On top of all this, it has ignored the advice of its own economic consultants on the implementation of change. It appears that "partnership", while being Government policy, does not apply in the Health Service Executive. Sooner or later it must realise that real and lasting change will not happen through diktat or high-handedness. Its announcement of 17 September was ill-conceived, ill-judged and unworkable. Based on its own consultants' advice, it should be reversed.

As I stated, this is not in any way to imply we do not believe the Government has a legitimate expectation and right to seek to achieve maximum value for money on its spend on medication. On the contrary, we fully support it in this endeavour and have been active for the past four to five years putting forward our ideas on how savings can be made. For example, millions of euro are wasted in the sector; there are poor levels of compliance — 50% of patients do not takes their medicines correctly — and there is a ban on pharmacists providing cheaper medication to patients. If our ideas on issues such as these could be addressed, they would bring about real and lasting savings and have real benefits for patients. Alas, until now, these proposals have fallen on deaf ears.

The outcome of this crisis will dictate how the pharmacy profession will evolve for many years to come and how patients' needs will be met as our population ages. The stakes have never been higher; it is an issue we must all resolve. The position of the HSE on the negotiating of fees will also apply to other stakeholder organisations such as the Irish Medical Organisation, the Irish Dental Association and the Association of Optometrists Ireland. This must raise serious concerns about the ability of the HSE to bring about urgently needed reforms and changes in the provision of primary care services to prevent patients from having to avail of hospital services which are far more expensive. Legislative provisions should be introduced to facilitate the orderly delivery of health services.

On a purely practical level, one of the biggest problems the IPU has faced in dealing with the HSE is that there appears to be a dual management structure — those who surround the CEO and those who have line responsibilities. It is never clear who is taking responsibility. Perhaps, this lies at the heart of many of the HSE's problems.

Having said that, I would like to see the Irish Pharmaceutical Union, the Health Service Executive and the Department engaging in a constructive manner on all issues affecting patients, the profession and the HSE in terms of its expectations as a service provider and payer. However, this can only happen when we operate in an environment of trust where change is brought about through negotiation and agreement, an environment without threat, provocation, intimidation or unilateral actions and where there is recognition of the genuine concerns and contributions of all parties. The union, therefore, seeks a reversal of the decision of 17 September to provide space for talks to take place and to have the impact of the HSE proposal on pharmacy services fully evaluated, as recommended in the Indecon report commissioned by the HSE; a fair, reasonable and independent process for the determination of fees and services.

I call on the Minister to intervene in this matter, as it is a policy issue, given that it has implications for other organisations such as the IPU. The same arrangements should apply to all bodies. There should be an independent chairperson to chair and manage the talks process, given the low level of trust and confidence between the parties. These are not unreasonable demands and if delivered, the way will be clear to make progress quickly and deliver on many of our aspirations and those of the Department and the Health Service Executive. That is the challenge for us all. We are up for it, but, regrettably, I cannot say the same for the Department and the HSE.

I thank committee members for their attention. My colleagues and I will be happy to discuss the issues raised in this presentation or any other relevant matters.

I thank Mr. Guckian. We had a session with the HSE in which we raised our concerns with it. Our major concern is for patients, with particular reference to what will happen on 1 December. We are not clear whether the proposed action will go ahead. We have been advised that three months' notice is required under the contract before the IPU can take industrial action. We have also been advised that as far as the HSE and the Department are concerned, the talks process is ongoing, but I have heard otherwise. Will the IPU confirm the current status of the Shipsey process? Are further meetings planned or is there a veto on the direction of negotiations with the IPU? What is the status of the threat to withdraw services on 1 December?

Mr. Seamus Feely

I will take the last question first. Most negotiations take place through legal advisers and there is little face to face discussion between the parties. We advised and informed the HSE last week through our legal advisers that the preconditions laid down were not acceptable to us. As we understand the Shipsey process, the ball is now back in the HSE court. There has been no further contact with it or its legal adviser since Friday. That is the current position. We are not sure whether the process is over or will continue.

Are further meetings planned?

Mr. Feely

There are no further meetings planned at this time. As I understand it, the legal adviser of the Department or the HSE is to come back to our legal advisers at some point, but there has been no contact from their side since last Thursday.

With regard to what will happen on 1 December, pharmacists are extremely concerned about the proposals which would have a significant impact on their businesses. We are aware that they are talking to their accountants and financial advisers regarding how they will be able to continue to deliver services if the decision is implemented on that date. It is entirely a matter for each individual member of the union to decide how to respond. It is not one on which the union will advise members one way or another.

It is clear, as we pointed out to the Department, that the proposals, as framed, would cause considerable damage to pharmacies and undermine the viability of many, as the president outlined.

I welcome the IPU members. The fact that this is the committee's first meeting demonstrates the urgency we attach to the problems faced by the IPU. As the previous speaker mentioned, these problems will quickly become the difficulties of any person in need of medication. As public representatives, we have received numerous calls concerning children and the elderly, including persons with continuing illnesses such as asthma. They are desperately worried about what will happen on 1 December. We have had a session with the HSE. The ideal would be to have the three IPU representatives here with the HSE representatives because, clearly, we are getting two conflicting stories. As I accept they are in the audience, I hope they are listening. May I ask Mr. Guckian if the IPU has a negotiating licence?

Mr. Guckian

Yes.

Such licences are difficult to come by.

Mr. Guckian

Yes.

I do not think they are issued any more. Are they?

Mr. Guckian

To be honest, I am not aware of the process involved in getting a negotiating licence, but we have had one for many years. We have been negotiating in recent years with the HSE. In the past 35 years there has never been a problem. It was only when the competition issue arose that there were problems. There is a way around them, but we do not seem to be getting anywhere with the process.

I was interested to hear Mr. Guckian say there seemed to be a difficulty because there are two strands of management. That is what seems to be coming across. Does he think there is a second strand within the HSE that is micro-managing this process?

Will the Deputy ask all her questions together, please?

The question in which we are all interested is whether the action will go ahead on 1 December, or whether any comfort can be given to people who are worried about it. Does the IPU recognise that there are dispensing issues concerning pharmacies and the pharmaceutical industry that need to be tackled? Is the IPU prepared to enter negotiations to tackle them with the HSE? It is important to know because we are getting conflicting stories. Will Mr. Guckian answer the HSE's charge that the cost in Ireland is double that in any other European country? Where does the IPU stand on that point? What is its position? It is important that it answers that point. Is the IPU, or its legal representatives, prepared to re-enter negotiations to ensure what we all fear on 1 December will not happen?

Mr. Feely

We have never withdrawn from negotiations and are open to getting back into them on the basis set out in the presentation, which is a reasonable way to proceed. Essentially, we want an opportunity to have the decision of 17 September addressed in the context of the talks or a fee determination process. Earlier this year the Minister indicated she was open to introducing such a process. If we can move ahead on the basis of this formula, there will be no need to worry about what will happen on 1 December.

From our perspective, we have made it clear all along that we are prepared to discuss the issue of cost containment. The issue is that the HSE is paying double the cost of what are called wholesale distribution services in Ireland. Its own report, for which it paid with taxpayers' money from Indecon, pointed out clearly that it would be wrong to set a fee based on a European comparison, as the European market is totally different in terms of regulation. For example, the pharmacy market here is the most liberal in Europe. We have a strong competitive wholesale market. The price determination mechanism for medicines here which is agreed between the Government and the Department, not with pharmacists, is different from that which pertains in other jurisdictions. In many European countries there is an absolute monopoly in the supply of all medications. Clearly, they are in a position to provide services using a totally different payment arrangement. To answer the Deputy's question, I presume Indecon was paid a substantial amount of taxpayers' money to answer the question. The conclusion it reached was that it would be wrong of the HSE to make a determination based on the fact that it was paying double the cost in other European countries. Indecon advised the Department to do exactly as we have been advising since 17 September, namely, to examine the position carefully and evaluate what would be the impact of the measure on the sector. The Indecon report also referred to the danger of disruption in the sector if the measure were to proceed. My colleague, Mr. Dermot Twomey, who has examined the report in more detail than I have, may wish to comment.

Mr. Dermot Twomey

I will refer to two points made in the executive summary of the report produced by Indecon, which was commissioned by the Health Service Executive to review pharmacy wholesale margins. First, the report's authors note that "given the differences in market structure and characteristics, we do not believe that referencing Irish wholesalers' prices to international comparisons is particularly helpful for this exercise". The second, most crucial point, relates to the timing of change. The authors conclude as follows:

The timing of significant changes in payment terms is crucial. We believe that changes and the impact of changes should be evaluated in advance in conjunction with key stakeholders. This needs to be carefully managed to avoid unnecessary market disruption.

Having read the report on the Internet, I made the same point as Mr. Twomey just before he and his colleagues joined us. I was informed, however, that the HSE understood the report differently. I also noted that it was a shame that IPU representatives were not present in the Gallery to hear our discussion which was held in private session. I do not know the reason for this but when we sought to discuss the matter in public session we could not do so because no one was present to do the recording.

The wholesale drug companies have written to IPU members indicating that they are not in negotiations with the HSE on compensating pharmacists for a reduction in the margin available for drug sales. While the HSE will argue it has a letter agreeing to provide such compensation, as late as yesterday IPU members informed me that such negotiations had not taken place and an agreement had not been reached with the wholesalers. Will the witnesses elaborate on this?

What is the position regarding the potential savings offered by dispensing generic drugs, an issue we have not discussed in detail? Does this approach have the potential to save the State money? Our constituents, whether they are private patients or on the general medical services scheme, constantly complain about the prices they must pay at pharmacies. Prices for medicines are very high, as we will all have noted while abroad in Spain, Portugal, France and elsewhere in Europe. Over-the-counter drugs in these countries are much cheaper, for example, Zovirax, which costs upwards of €8 here, can be purchased for €3 or €4 in Spain. What is the position of the IPU on the ban on pharmacists dispensing cheaper medicines?

Last February, I attended a meeting at which Professor Brendan Drumm and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, discussed the idea of establishing an independent pricing process. The HSE recently indicated it is not interested in such a mechanism. Did Mr. Shipsey, SC, point out to the HSE that Professor Drumm and the Minister had previously expressed support for such an independent process?

Ms Liz Hoctor

The statements made by the Minister and chief executive officer of the Health Service Executive were brought to the attention of Mr. Shipsey — they were highlighted when we made our initial proposals to him.

Questions were asked regarding submissions the IPU made on making savings for the HSE. As members are aware, the prices of medicines are set by the Government under IPHA agreement. A clause in the agreement states that pharmacists must dispense the product indicated on the prescription. However, we would like to actively engage with the HSE in the reform of pharmacy services. We would consider working with the HSE in partnership to deliver value for money for it, improve patient safety and achieve better use of medicines by patients. My colleague, Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin, will address the issue of wholesalers.

Mr. Darragh O’Loughlin

The Senator is correct in saying wholesalers have written to their customers, the pharmacists, to point out clearly that they will not be reducing their prices on 1 December and that they have entered into no agreements with the HSE to do so. We are hearing the same things about the HSE having secured what it calls specific commitments. The wholesalers who sell us the medicines are telling us they will not be charging us any less for medicines on 1 December than they are today. In effect, what the HSE is proposing to do is pay us less for medicines that will cost us the same amount of money to buy.

Is there any negotiation in regard to monthly accounts?

Mr. O’Loughlin

Wholesalers have agreed to engage with particular customers who find themselves in hardship to see if there is any way in which they can help to alleviate that hardship. However, they have made public statements which have been printed in Sunday newspapers and included in their websites and written to us to say they are not reducing their prices.

The IPU representatives are welcome. Our principal concern is that the service to the consumer should be a good one and that we get the cheapest possible price for drugs. That is a given. It is also of concern that the pharmacist should still be in a position to provide that service. I come from a rural area where many pharmacists dispense to patients, 90% of whom are medical card holders and 10% of whom are private patients. This makes the situation difficult for them. There is also in my constituency a distribution branch of United Drug which employs 100 people. If that were to go or threatened in any way, the consequences would be serious.

In the light of the presentation we heard and the questions we asked the HSE representatives, I want to refer to a point made in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and the IPU's presentation, that the average profit per pharmacy is €84,000, which represents a figure of 6%. When I put this point previously, it was highlighted — I was already aware of it — that this excludes remuneration to the owner of the pharmacy. A figure of €400,000 was mentioned as being the average remuneration to the pharmacist, excluding profit. I want to nail this on the head if it is not accurate and to seek clarification from the IPU as to the average remuneration of pharmacists.

The HSE representatives said fees to pharmacists comprised 18.1% of total payments to pharmacists under the GMS and that no concrete evidence had been produced to substantiate the claim that the scheme was loss making. I have seen a set of accounts for a pharmacist in my constituency and there is no question but that he will be in serious difficulty. I do not have permission to pass on that set of accounts, but can the IPU provide the necessary evidence for the HSE that a reduction in margins will put pharmacists out of business? If it has such evidence, it should be passed on. The HSE claims that there is not a shred of evidence but the feedback in my constituency indicates it could be catastrophic for many pharmacies.

Is it correct that the IPU proposes there should be an amendment of competition law to enable it to negotiate? The delegation might explain what is envisaged. The IPU has highlighted that it has no role in negotiating the price of drugs. We understand how the price is made up. However, the HSE drew up some interesting figures which the IPU probably has probably not seen. In one example in February this year under the medical card scheme the price could be reduced from €52.88 to €34.24, a reduction of €18.64. Two reductions in the price of a drug to the consumer were the result of negotiation with the manufacturers. The reduction to the pharmacist represents just a small percentage of the overall reduction in cost to the person on the street but it is extremely harmful to pharmacists. That is the point I am making.

Senator Feeney referred to the letters from the drug companies in which they have stated they are not reducing their costs. It is clear to me that the HSE is fully aware that the price remains unchanged and we are only playing around with words and figures. Perhaps the delegation would explain something to me. If the cost price of a drug is €100, the margin at present is 17%. In reality it costs pharmacists €83. I would like the delegation to explain why the system is operating at a loss. How is this worked out? There is the cost price of the drug on which pharmacists get a margin. The argument has been made that it is a loss making scheme for pharmacists. I ask the delegation to go through the exact figure — the cost price, the margin and what is actually being made on it. I understand the part about the dispensing fee. If it is the case, according to the example given to me by a local pharmacist, that the cost price is €100 and that he will now get €92, clearly he is operating at a loss. Where is the margin being brought into play?

Mr. O’Loughlin

I will start at the bottom of the list of questions and deal with the margin issue first. There is no margin on the medical card scheme. We get reimbursed the wholesale price, plus a fee of €3.26. The margin referred to by the Deputy is the collation of all the figures at the end of the year. All the €3.26s add up to roughly 18% of what the cost price of all the drugs have been. We buy our medicine from a wholesaler. It could be invoiced at €100 or €10, depending on the medicine. Regardless of that, we get that flat, plus €3.26. The 17% is the wholesale margin. If a medicine is invoiced into the pharmacy at €100 it has left the factory at €85 to go to the wholesalers. In the wholesalers it goes from €85 to €100 and we get it for €100. We get discounts on some products from our wholesalers. We do not get discounts on every medicine. We do not get discounts from every supplier. For years those discounts have propped up the medical card scheme. That is the only reason it is possible to dispense a €100 medicine for €103. Even with those discounts, it will not be possible to dispense a €100 medicine for €92 plus a fee of €3. One would still be down €5.

I am glad Mr. O'Loughlin clarified that.

Mr. O’Loughlin

The Deputy also queried the figure of €400,000 as an average owner remuneration. I am staggered to hear that. I do not know many pharmacists who make that kind of money. If the average turnover in a pharmacy is €1.5 million, with an average gross margin of about 35%, it suggests that all of the stock in the pharmacy at the end of the year has gone out for roughly €0.5 million more than it was bought for. Out of that one has to pay rent, rates, staff, light, heat and power. If all of those were free, which they are not, one would have €400,000 plus the retained profit of €70,000 or €80,000. It is only possible to make €400,000 if one gets the electricity, telephone, rent, rates and all one's staff for free. I have not been able to achieve that.

Is there an average remuneration for an owned pharmacy?

Mr. O’Loughlin

I would say that most pharmacists probably pay themselves close to €100,000 if they can afford it. Many pharmacists are paying themselves less than half that amount. If there is such a massive variation in the sector it is almost impossible to pin an average on the wall and say that is what they are getting. I personally know pharmacists who are just about making a living but they enjoy what they do. I am sure we all read in the newspapers of the odd pharmacist who makes a great deal of money.

The Deputy also asked about evidence of bankruptcy and pharmacists potentially going out of business. The Deputy has seen some of that evidence. The profile of the pharmacy profession in Ireland is changing quite dramatically. It is a very young profession. People have borrowed a good deal of money and obtained big mortgages to establish themselves in business, which is a perfectly legitimate aspiration. It is also perfectly reasonable for pharmacists to build a business plan based on the assumption that the HSE would abide by all the terms of the contract, instead of unilaterally changing the payment terms of the contract while insisting on the same service levels. People have businesses and are running on tight margins operating from the GMS scheme. They do not have a cash or front-of-shop business. Patients have medical cards because they do not have any money. It is not like a loss leader in a supermarket which can sell milk cheaply to sell meat at a higher price. A medical card holder simply wants his or her prescription filled. Pharmacists who are paid less for medicines than what it costs to buy them cannot remain in business. It is simple arithmetic.

Mr. Feely

On competition law, obviously from our perspective we would prefer to be in a position to negotiate with the HSE, as we have done for the past 35 years. Clearly we would favour an amendment to the Competition Act if that were possible. When this issue arose last December the HSE was intent on determining the price and operating on the basis that pharmacists could take it or leave it and this was not acceptable. In an attempt to be helpful, we proposed that we meet with the HSE under the chairmanship of an independent person to see if we could come up with a process that we were confident would be fair to all parties. We were anxious to develop a process that could achieve this.

The HSE proposals put forward in May or June of this year were broadly similar to those proposed the previous January. In July, we proposed that the HSE establish a prices commission to deal with contract issues relating to the pharmacy and other professions and that such a group would hear arguments from both sides. We had no problem with all the issues, such as those raised today, being on the table for discussion and negotiation. We proposed that the independent commission would hear arguments from pharmacists, the union, the Department and others and would then make a recommendation to the Health Service Executive as regards what might be an appropriate price for a particular service.

We also accepted that even under our current contract, the Minister has the final say in terms of what is to be paid. We were also prepared to accept this in the context of the HSE agreeing to the establishment of an independent pricing mechanism or process. Unfortunately, the HSE responded on 13 September — two or three weeks later — stating that this did not comply with the principle of competition law. We are well aware of the issues around competition law and had our proposal proofed by our lawyers and solicitors prior to submission. They were quite satisfied the proposal complied with the terms of competition law. We were prepared to take that option. In terms of our right to negotiate, clearly it is a right that only the courts can ultimately take away from us and it is a right that we will defend. If we can get an alternative process in which we can have comfort and believe is fair and reasonable we will accept it.

I join with my colleagues in welcoming the IPU representatives to the meeting.

Regarding the action already taken, has it been suspended or abandoned? I speak specifically of the closure of access to methadone-dependent clients at a number of pharmacies around the country. Can the representatives advise us of the status of this action at this point? What is the IPU's view in this regard?

Like many citizens, I was shocked by what happened. I know from the reaction of ordinary people that they found it difficult to comprehend. I believe it was damaging to the general IPU and pharmacy interest in terms of public relations. Has the IPU considered alternative actions in respect of GMS dependants, namely, those in receipt of medical cards and those eligible for the drugs refund payment scheme?

Many people have raised with me their concerns about the long-term medication needs of a loved one in a variety of settings. This matter has been raised with me during house calls as well as by people with whom I have met at my constituency office. People are fearful of what lies ahead. Without prejudice to the issues and the tangle going on, could alternative actions have been taken? I do not equate this action with that of Dublin Bus employees during the past couple of days in terms of the concern created for those dependent on the service. There are very significant health issues which are of deep concern to many individuals and their families. Could the IPU have considered alternative actions and are there alternatives which might be considered? I accept that the IPU has taken a position in its engagement with Health Service Executive. The IPU has a case to make on behalf of its members. I ask these questions to encourage a different approach which will strike a more cordant note with the wider population. The IPU position and the interest of individual community pharmacies throughout the country has not been helped by the approach proposed and already employed.

With regard to the Competition Act, barring direct engagement between the IPU and the HSE, I fully support the right of the IPU to represent its members. I recently raised the matter with the Minister and the Taoiseach in direct questioning. The Minister replied that the Attorney General is examining the issue. Do the representatives of the IPU have an update in that regard? The Taoiseach, on the other hand, indicated that because of the EU dimension it was not in the Government's gift to revisit the Competition Act 2002. However, a formula must and, if willingness is there, can be found in order to overcome this difficulty. Dentists and a variety of other interests, as well as the IPU, are affected. We must use an inventive approach to overcome these difficulties and give pharmacists back their rightful voices.

When I asked my next question of the witnesses from the HSE they did not answer it and looked curiously at each other. Information has been provided that a senior official in the Department of Health and Children indicated to the IPU that in the event of a HSE failure to adhere to agreements reached in the negotiation process, the Department would force adherence. I understand the Minister subsequently admonished the official concerned and indicated that there was no authority to make such an intervention or to give such an assurance. Can the representatives of the IPU shed any light on that exchange? Their puzzled faces seem not to help me any more than those of the last set of visitors. However, this information appeared in a briefing note. I will tell the witnesses later where it came from.

Mr. Richard Collis

I will answer the methadone question. I was one of the pharmacists who withdrew services. I was part of the team that negotiated the methadone protocol in 1996. I was one of the first pharmacists in Dublin to embrace that service and I did so to a very significant extent because I believed it was part of the social commitment of pharmacies to harmony within the community. I took the recent action because I had no alternative. The competition legislation being used by the HSE was a ruthless weapon against us. It told us we did not have the right of association or freedom of speech. That was a serious intrusion on my civil rights. My colleagues and I were painted as the big bad wolf. However, three industrial actions were being taken that weekend, involving staff at Iarnród Éireann, Aer Lingus and ourselves. The disputes at Iarnród Éireann and Aer Lingus were settled, but what did the HSE do to settle its dispute with pharmacists in the eastern region? The Competition Authority sent provocative letters by courier to each pharmacist on the Friday evening. Members should think about that. That action could have been taken on Monday when we actually withdrew services but it was taken prior to that and the intention was clear — it was intimidation. That is how the HSE felt it could resolve the problem in the eastern region.

The HSE has a mandate to look after the health of the population. As an individual pharmacist, it appeared to me on that Friday evening that it was abusing that mandate. It did not care about the very people it had spoken of so warmly in the previous week but simply wanted to intimidate us back to work. The effect, unfortunately, was to galvanise us. We went out on the Monday and negotiations took place on the following day, leading me to believe the HSE did not think we would go out in the first place. To the best of my knowledge there was an agreement on the Tuesday and, on the Wednesday, we were told that it was off the table unless we went back to work.

I am a former president of the IPU so many people telephoned me and there was much dialogue on the subject. We were fairly happy with events on the Wednesday because the structures the HSE had put in place were working. On the Thursday we noted, however, that they were beginning to creak. There were indications that negotiations were resuming and, on the Sunday, we were only too willing to vote to go back to work, having made our point. However, we were going back to work because we felt the arrangements the HSE was putting in place were becoming inadequate.

I stand over what we did. I am not proud of the fact that we picked on a certain element of society because that element did not deserve to be picked on any more. However, it was done in a measured way — it was not a total pull-out in that regard. Pressure in the system was not excessive until the latter part of the week when, for some reason, the numbers tend to increase. That is the only defence I can make for what we did. Having appeared before the Competition Authority, I suggest the actions of the HSE were indefensible. If that organisation is entrusted with the health of this nation it has serious questions to answer in regard to that weekend.

Ms Hoctor

As Mr. Collis said, the chairman of the talks, Mr. Shipsey, SC, issued a statement on the Friday night and said he was confident that if pharmacists resumed dispensing methadone, real and meaningful progress could be made. As we stated in our presentation, pharmacists resumed dispensing on the Monday but it took another ten days before the HSE met with the IPU. On Wednesday, 31 October, it was agreed that in order to move forward to talks on forming an independent pricing mechanism, both parties' legal teams would meet. Our solicitor took out his diary and said he was prioritising the matter, asking to meet the HSE the following morning. It took another seven days before the HSE's solicitor was available to meet our solicitor. Last Wednesday, 7 November, the HSE wrote to members indicating progress had not been made in the talks and that it would issue a contract by diktat, without any discussion. The legal teams met on that Wednesday morning and it appeared progress would be made but, unfortunately, on Thursday morning preconditions were laid down which could not be considered acceptable. Details of these have been included in the presentation.

For the past three or four weeks, community pharmacists have tried to find an independent process. We are reasonable people and this is a real problem for us and for our patients, the people we meet day-in and day-out, who also express concern. What will happen on 1 December? We would like an independent mechanism to be found which is fair, independent and reasonable. We want to be able to operate in an atmosphere that is free from threat and intimidation, and we want to work in partnership with the HSE in order to deliver a quality health care service to our patients.

My question related to alternative actions and the last question in regard to the Minister's intervention regarding the remarks of a senior member of her Department. Can Mr. Feely shed any light on same?

Mr. Feely

No, I am not aware of that or of what the Deputy is getting at. In regard to the methadone issue, pharmacists were assured by officials of the HSE the previous week that its contingency plans to deal with the situation were adequate and were so strong that it was unlikely there would ever be a need for pharmacists to deliver those services again in the future. Our members went out with a very clear mind that nobody would be left without a methadone service during that week. That simply did not turn out to be the case.

In terms of actions, we are advising pharmacists to examine their own businesses and how they will operate from 1 December if this goes ahead. Our preferred way of dealing with this issue is for the HSE to defer this decision, as recommended by its own consultants paid for by taxpayers' money, to allow the issue to be evaluated and to see what its impact will be on pharmacy services. We believe our proposal in terms of a pricing process is very fair. We are taking a risk with that as well. We are going down a route we have not gone down before. We are prepared to go down that route. However, we believe the HSE has one agenda, one outcome it wants to achieve, and it intends to achieve that outcome irrespective of how it does so. That is the concern of our members.

The continuous flow of letters directly to our members rather than to the union is inflaming the situation on the ground as evidenced by the fury over the first letter that went out and the fury last week when as we were sitting down talking, our members got another letter from the HSE stating it was changing the pricing structure and would like to hear their views on it. That is just inflaming the situation. We are now at the stage where we are wondering whether that is what the HSE wants to do. Does it want to force matters to that point? We do not want to go there. We want a resolution. We have set out our proposal in the last page of our presentation. We believe it is reasonable. It is the way business is normally done. No pharmacist wants to engage in any type of action. We want our issues resolved through the normal industrial process.

Everyone at this table wants an amicable agreement. The frustration of the IPU is very evident. Let me also express my frustration in regard to members of the IPU in Donegal. They might note, if they are lobbying on this or any other matter, that normally individuals approach Deputies with problems and give them a chance to examine the issues. That did not happen in this instance. IPU members handed out leaflets in pharmacies across Donegal containing the phone numbers of local Deputies and false information to the effect that they would get no more medication from pharmacies as and from 1 December. That created much concern among the public. That concern was created by IPU members before local representatives got a chance to lobby on the issue. That is not the way to lobby me as a Deputy and I want to make it clear before I begin asking questions that I will not accept it.

I understand the IPU has 1,600 members. Are any of those members involved in the wholesale sector and, if so, how many? I understand there were more talks last week and that there was a stage at which the IPU understood agreement had been reached. If that is the case, what was agreed? I have a number of other points to raise but will do so later.

I congratulate the IPU. The Fine Gael parliamentary party met following the last meeting. I was very impressed with how the methadone issue was partly resolved because treatment was restored to the people involved, which was the right way to go.

The IPU's opening statement referred to putting patients first and looking after the health and well-being of society. In reality, this is what the local pharmacist means to me and people on the street. They do not have a choice, unfortunately. Pharmacists are their lifeline, their well-being and their health. Whoever walked away from the table, whether it was the HSE or the IPU — I am not here to debate that question — it is time the two groups, which are mighty players in this game, came together around the table to make decisions and alleviate the concern that exists. As other speakers noted, there is a genuine concern among the public, particularly the elderly, that they are being used like pawns in a game of chess, which is wrong.

As a public representative, my role is to speak on behalf of the people. While I do not have the answers, I know that most of us would like to see medicine being made available much more cheaply. The HSE has much to answer for. To take six to eight weeks to answer a simple question from a Dáil representative is difficult for me to accept. On behalf of the committee, I appeal to the IPU and the HSE to come back to the table and talk to each other. None of us will suffer; it is the people on the street and those who depend on the pharmacy and the HSE who will suffer. I do not have a question, just this plea.

Mr. Guckian

With regard to the question of how many pharmacists are part of a wholesaler group, it is probably fewer than 100, although I am not sure of those figures. In terms of action, as IPU president, I assure the committee we have not called on members to go out in an action. Instead, we asked them to go back into the methadone scheme — I personally asked them this when I sent out a press release based on a press release drawn up by Mr. Shipsey, SC, which assured the IPU we would move forward if members would back the methadone scheme. That happened, but the HSE did not keep up its side of the bargain.

This is a decision for members, who feel they have no place to turn and that they have been backed into a corner. There is a possibility of positive action being taken by individual members but this is not something for which the HSE will call. It would be all the more difficult for me to ask members to return to the scheme, given that the last time I did so, others backed out on agreements we were hoping would solve the issue.

Mr. Collis

With regard to Deputy Blaney's point on the actions of pharmacists in Donegal, I was involved in the eastern region. We all thought long and hard about what we did and there is a strong element of regret about what we had to do, as I have explained. I would not condone what the Deputy claims happened in Donegal, and I have no reason to disbelieve him. However, it is a strong reflection of the concern that exists among pharmacists, particularly in rural areas. I apologise on behalf of my colleagues if offence was given but it must be acknowledged that behaviour like this is not the norm. If it has happened, we must ask why this is so. The "why" I am afraid, is the behaviour of the HSE in the past year.

My question with regard to the talks last week was not answered. Pharmacists are professionals and should act in a professional manner but IPU members did not act in a professional manner in Donegal. We would have a chance to lobby for the IPU if we were approached in a professional manner, but that did not happen. The way the matter was handled in Donegal was insane.

Mr. Feely

As a union we want to be professional in how we go about our business. Traditionally, we have dealt with politicians in a constructive way, for example, during the enactment of the Pharmacy Bill last year. That is how we like to conduct our business. If private numbers of politicians have been given out, clearly that is something that should not happen. It is, perhaps, a reflection of the frustration felt. As Mr. Guckian said about a previous occasion, he, the vice president and the treasurer put their heads on the line in persuading people to go back on the basis of what they considered to be an agreement, only to discover two weeks later that it was off the table. It would be much more difficult for us to do that again.

I do not have in front of me the details of what was agreed last week. To be frank, the agreements tend to change from week to week. We believed there was a fair element of agreement between the solicitors or lawyers for both sides on what could or could not be discussed when we got around the table to talk about fees. We understood the HSE had accepted, for the first time in nine months, that we would be able, for example, to discuss issues about fee structures and fee models, but not the precise pricing of services. We thought that was a significant step forward from the perspective of the HSE. However, as we outlined in our presentation, all that changed the next day. Unfortunately, that is what tends to happen when one deals with the HSE. One deals with one set of officials who go back to consult others and the next day the ball game has changed. That is of great concern to us.

To come back to Deputy Byrne, we had heard of her and she made a significant impression on us before this action started. We used her name in talking to our members and persuading them to come back to discussions. From our perspective, her plea is not falling on deaf ears. We are prepared to go back on the basis set out. We think it is a simple model and do not believe there is anything the HSE need worry about. However, it must accept that it cannot force a contract on anyone. We must discuss and agree it. Time must be allowed for talks.

When it comes to prices for services, we were prepared in our proposals, if the HSE did not want to go down the traditional route, to look at an independent process, but needed to be assured that our voice and that of pharmacists would be heard and that the outcome would be fair and reasonable to all sides. That is a reasonable request. We have also asked for an independent chairperson. We would like that person to have an industrial relations background. We do not understand why someone of the standing of Mr. Kieran Mulvey, or someone nominated by him, would not be acceptable to the HSE. That beggars belief.

Like previous speakers, I support the IPU. I agree that as a union it should be allowed to represent pharmacists. Irrespective of the provisions of competition law, the union represents its members and should be allowed to negotiate.

I am concerned about people, particularly the old and medical card holders. They are worried that from 1 December and coming up to Christmas they will be left high and dry without distribution services and unable to get their medicines. I asked the HSE if it would give a guarantee of service, particularly during the holiday period. I ask the IPU the same question. Will it guarantee that if negotiations break down and there is no prospect of an agreement, it will continue to provide a service over the Christmas period and beyond? The HSE has informed us that pharmacists have a three-month contract or agreement and cannot withdraw their services without giving that notice. Will the IPU stand over the individual agreement each pharmacist has with the HSE?

As a rural Deputy, I am concerned about the viability of rural pharmacies. We have lost many services in rural areas and do not want pharmacies to be next. A local pharmacist in my area told me that her turnover was €1.2 million last year, but that the HSE proposals would cost her €28,000 in the coming year. The only option she can see is either close down or, if she is to see her business survive, let one or two of the three girls working for her go. Then she asked me how she can provide a service to people with only person and herself working. These are the matters I am talking about.

The IPU representatives seem to accept that the distribution costs in the supply of medicines in Ireland is expensive compared with other countries. Is the IPU willing to play its part by accepting some reduction in its fees, along with the wholesalers and manufacturers, to get an agreement on how the HSE can save €100 million per annum in future? Is the IPU saying that it is willing to enter negotiations to take part of the rap, but that it should be spread more evenly across the field? The HSE has an important part to play in this regard and I hope the Minister will keep pressing the executive to negotiate so that we can come to some final agreement to get this matter sorted out. In that way people will be able to get a normal service as regards supplies from their pharmacies, which we respect and need.

We would all certainly like to see the dispute settled so that patients will not suffer. One of the difficulties for the public and ourselves as members of the committee is the conflicting evidence we have heard from each side, and nowhere more so than in the question of the wholesalers' price and what they will charge. Wholesalers have written to the IPU's members telling them they will not reduce the wholesale price, but I would like to know what exactly we are talking about. Are we comparing like with like and are the wholesalers, the IPU and the HSE talking about the same thing? Am I right in assuming that wholesalers will pay less for their medicine now because presumably the manufacturers will be charging less as a result of the agreement with the HSE? What prices are the wholesalers not reducing? Do they relate to distribution costs or mark-up? I would like to know the figures involved.

Competition law has been mentioned a number of times and is obviously a stumbling block which all of us — including, I imagine, the HSE — would like to see removed. Is it fair to say that it was the pharmaceutical distributors federation that first raised a legal issue and that, unfortunately, the HSE sought legal advice which was that competition law came into play? It might never have come into play had it not been raised by another body first.

I am delighted that the IPU representatives were able to attend this meeting. Like others, I feel there is an immediate need to return to the talks table. I understand that good progress was made last week but suddenly it all fell through. Without negotiation and a willingness on both sides, this matter will run on and ultimately the patient will suffer.

The IPU has made a reasoned and reasonable case today and should be allowed to represent its members who are the professionals concerned. I am concerned about the contingency plan in place. As Mr. Guckian said, it is up to IPU members to decide, but if ten, 20, 30 or 40 pharmacists decide to pull out there must be some contingency plan in place before Christmas when people may require medication. We are talking about bank holidays when pharmacists will be closed, so some contingency plan must be in place to deal with such requirements. The public concern is palpable. I am new to this game but my phone has been hopping from customers as well as from pharmacists who are genuinely worried about what will be facing them after 1 December.

I have a final question, although I certainly do not want Mr. Guckian to divulge anything that is up for discussion. The Indecon report, with which the delegation agrees, proposes introducing these measures as part of a gradual process. A decline from 17.6% to 6%, 7% or 8% is not gradual. Does the delegation have a specific proposal in mind and has it communicated it to the HSE? May we expect some movement in that area? We must have a starting point and a willingness on both sides to resolve the problem.

The HSE indicated that the proposed flat fee arrangement of 8% would assist smaller pharmacies. While the fee is currently 17%, small pharmacies, unlike larger pharmacy companies, are not in a position to negotiate a better deal. What is the delegation's opinion on this suggestion?

I apologise in advance for leaving as I must speak in the Chamber. At the heart of this dispute is the lack of an independent arbitrator to resolve the issue in a fair-minded manner. I call on the Health Service Executive and the Minister to take this option because the problem will not be resolved by edict, the approach they have taken.

When the Competition Bill was being debated the Labour Party tabled an amendment which, had it been accepted, would have averted the current problem. As well as pharmacists, dentists and others will be affected by the decision. The Labour Party recently produced a competition amendment Bill which I hope the Government will accept. In the meantime, I appeal to all sides to come together and sort out the problem, even if this requires having the negotiating parties sit in separate rooms while an independent mediator acts as go-between. People genuinely want the service pharmacies provide to continue. Those with medical cards will not have an alternative because they will still have a medical card in their hand when they go to another pharmacist. I appeal to both sides but specifically the HSE to resolve the issue, which should be easily sorted out.

I am reflecting the views of all members when I say we want this problem solved in whatever way possible. I appeal to the IPU and the delegation which appeared before the joint committee earlier to establish a process to resolve the problem. Members of the public will become even more concerned otherwise. I hope the appearance of the two delegations before the joint committee will help advance the process and a solution will be found as members of the public are worried about what will happen on 1 December.

Ms Hoctor

We offer assurances about the provision of services from 1 December onwards. Pharmacists seek to have the decision of 17 September reversed to provide space for talks to continue. In line with the Indecon report's findings, we also seek to have the decision evaluated.

Mr. Feely

I shall answer Deputy O'Hanlon's question. The issue arose first and foremost among the pharmaceutical distributors. When they first raised the matter, it gave rise to the spiral of events which took place at the end of last year. That is the factual position.

Mr. O’Loughlin

Deputy Aylward asked a number of questions and spoke of his concern for patients, an issue addressed by Ms Hoctor. The IPU does not want any patient to go without medicine but we cannot demand that pharmacists dispense drugs to patients and receive less for doing so than it costs to buy the products in question. Patients do not want to be treated as charity cases and pharmacists cannot subsidise the health care of their patients. It is imperative, therefore, that the HSE reverses the decision to cut the remuneration rate for drugs. Medicines will not be supplied more cheaply to our members; the price will remain the same.

Deputy O'Hanlon raised the issue of the difference between the wholesale price and the manufacturer price. We pay our wholesalers the wholesale price. They buy the drugs from the manufacturers at the ex-manufacturer price. We do not have access to drugs at the manufacturing price. That is what the wholesalers pay. We buy the drugs from the wholesalers and the only price we pay is the wholesale price.

Deputy Aylward asked whether the IPU was prepared to take a cut in fees. We are not here to agree to a cut in fees. We want a fair, independent mechanism to review the services we provide and set a fair and reasonable fee for those services. We want to have an input into this independent process and for the HSE to have an input into it. If we have faith and comfort that this mechanism is truly independent and fair, we will have to accept the outcome. That is all we are looking for, something that is independent and fair. We cannot have fees dictated unilaterally by the HSE.

Deputy Flynn is right in regard to rural pharmacies and their service levels. Pharmacists tell me that their profits could be reduced on average by €70,000. The average profit in a pharmacy is currently between €85,000 and €90,000. Staff will have to be let go and pharmacists will not be able to provide the same level of service with fewer staff. Unfortunately, service standards may drop if we are forced to cut costs to the bone in order to keep the doors open. If it is a question of keeping the doors open or not keeping them open, we want to keep them open. We do not want to see rural areas denuded of pharmacy services. I live in a rural area. I like living in a rural area, and the people living around me are as entitled to a pharmacy service as are the people in a big city.

To say, as the HSE has apparently said, that this price cut will help small pharmacies defies logic. How can somebody who is getting only a small or no discount from a wholesaler benefit from having their payment rate cut? I cannot understand the logic of that statement, so I am not even in a position to engage with it. There are calls from Deputy Kathleen Lynch to sort the matter out. We want to sort it out. At no stage have we walked away from the table. As my colleagues have said, we are in there at every opportunity desperately trying to do a deal, but every time we think we have come close to doing a deal we get a letter or a phone call the next day to tell us that what happened the night before is off the table and we are back to square one. It is intensely frustrating. We have not given up.

As Deputies who represent different parts of the country have said, we all have an interest in making sure our communities and our patients get the services they deserve. It is very important to keep the patient at the centre of what we do. That is what we are trying to do. We want to continue to deliver a high level, professional pharmacy service to patients. That will not be possible if the HSE continues to breach our contract, cut our remuneration and demand that we give drugs out for less than it costs us to buy them. It simply cannot be done.

Mr. Guckian

I thank the committee for allowing us to speak. I hope, with the committee's input, we will be able to resolve this sooner rather than later so that we can all rest easy at night.

We also hope that. I thank the IPU for attending and answering our questions. I also thank the members of the joint committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.50 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22 November 2007.
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