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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 8 Sep 2009

Pandemic (H1N1) 2009: Discussion.

I welcome the representatives from the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive. Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the joint committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Following the presentation, members will put questions which will be taken in an orderly fashion. The delegates will then be called to wrap up. The committee very much appreciates their attendance to discuss a matter occupying the minds of many. We very much appreciate the hard work done in the planning and implementation of a response by the HSE and the Department in recent months. I call Dr. Holohan.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I very much welcome the opportunity to meet the joint committee to outline the details of our response to pandemic (H1N1) 2009 and to address questions members may have. I am joined by the following: Dr. John Devlin, deputy chief medical officer; Mr. Brian Mullen, principal officer, public health division, Department of Health and Children; Dr. Pat Doorley, director of population health, HSE; Dr. Kevin Kelleher, assistant director of population health with responsibility for health protection, HSE; and Mr. Gavin Maguire, assistant national director of population health with responsibility for emergency planning, HSE.

I will outline an overall summary of the position since April. On Friday, 24 April we received from the World Health Organization, WHO, through the international health regulation system, an alert indicating that human cases of influenza type A, H1N1 virus infection, had been identified in both the United States and Mexico. On 26 April the WHO upgraded the pandemic alert level from phase 3 to phase 4 and on 28 April it was upgraded again to phase 5 of a six-phase level. On Thursday, 11 June, following consideration by its emergency committee, the WHO raised the influenza alert level to pandemic level 6. Pandemic means an influenza virus new to the population has appeared, is spreading and causing disease in many parts of the world. Phase 6 means there is increased and sustained transmission in human populations in at least two regions of the WHO which is divided into half a dozen regions on a global basis.

The WHO's decision reflected the geographic spread as opposed to any statement of its severity. When it made the declaration, the organisation categorised the severity of the pandemic as moderate. We had anticipated the changes in categorisation from level 3 to level 6 and the categorisation of the pandemic as moderate, as did the international scientific community. With regard to our plans and preparations, at each of these stages, we were ready for the step-ups as and when they occurred. The Department and the HSE have been preparing for years for an influenza pandemic. These preparations reflected international developments, the learning from the SARS outbreak in 2003 and the possibility in more recent years of a global pandemic emerging as a result of the H5N1 virus, the so-called avian flu.

On receipt of the initial WHO alert in April, the Department activated our national plan for pandemic influenza, which was originally launched in January 2007 and in keeping with which we launched our response. The plan has been accompanied by a guidance report developed by a standing influenza pandemic expert group, chaired by Professor Bill Hall of the national virus reference laboratory in UCD. That group further updated its guidance in April based on experience with the new pandemic and it has continued, as required, to update the guidance. We are following that guidance in our response at every level in the health system.

In line with the national plan, the so-called national public health emergency team which manages the health system response to a public health emergency was convened and it has met regularly throughout the incident. It is chaired by the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children, Mr. Michael Scanlan. The chief executive officer of the HSE is also a member. The expert group chaired by Professor Hall continues to provide public health and scientific advice on preparedness and control measures for the national public health emergency team. An interdepartmental committee drawn from every other Department and other public agencies on pandemic planning, which co-ordinates the intersectoral response to a potential pandemic, has met since the declaration of this incident on an approximately fortnightly basis. Within the HSE, national and regional crisis management teams have been meeting regularly to co-ordinate the HSE preparedness and response measures they have had to put in place.

The Department and HSE regularly participate in teleconferences and meetings with the European Centre for Disease Control, the agency of the Commission at European level which co-ordinates responses among member states. We have also been linking with our colleagues in Northern Ireland and with public health officials in other European member states and the WHO.

As members may be aware, we have been holding regular press briefings to provide information and to convey important public health messages and have been doing so regularly since the outset of the crisis. We are now doing so on a weekly basis by arrangement, namely, we hold a press briefing every Thursday afternoon. Information is also regularly updated on the Department's website and the HSE website. More recently, we launched the pandemic H1N1 2009 website at www.swineflu.ie. which provides advice on travel, schools, care in the home, hospitals and other health care settings and general measures the public can take to limit their own risk of acquiring or transmitting the infection should they become infected.

The Minister for Health and Children has also provided regular briefings for the Cabinet, and Oireachtas health spokespersons have been briefed on a couple of occasions on preparations in regard to the incident. Arrangements were also put in place in advance of the declaration of this pandemic to secure access, should we need it in a pandemic situation, to supplies of a vaccine. This led to us being able to put in place an arrangement whereby 7.7 million doses have been acquired for use in the Irish population. Initial doses are currently arriving into the country. Administration of this vaccines will not commence until after they are licensed, which is not expected to be until October. Advance arrangements were also put in place which had insured that at the outset of this incident Ireland had anti-viral drugs in place for 47% of the population. Additional supplies have been procured since the beginning of the incident.

The first case of swine flu was confirmed in Ireland on 2 May 2009. We have since had two deaths and more than 800 laboratory confirmed cases in Ireland. In line with the national plan and arrangements in other countries, we initially operated what is termed a containment strategy. The rationale for this was to delay the development of the disease to ensure we could put in place and optimise our preparations for a response to the pandemic by identifying each individual case that occurred here and then actively identifying and tracing each contact of that case. Members may recall we were offering Tamiflu to each one of those contacts. We said from the outset that this would be a time limited strategy and as a result — this is pretty much in line with other countries — in mid-July, we changed our response to one of mitigation. This means our response is now focused on minimising the impact of the disease on the population and on the functioning of society generally. As a result patients are now diagnosed and managed clinically by their general practitioner. Swab tests for the virus are no longer routinely taken from patients and sent for viral testing. The number of laboratory cases has therefore ceased to be a reliable indicator of the burden of infection. While we would at the beginning have been reporting the exact number on a daily basis, for the reasons just outlined we no longer have an accurate representation of the burden of infection on the population.

Since the end of July, an estimated number of cases is now provided each week based on information derived from the so-called national influenza sentinel GP surveillance network. This gives a good estimate of the number of cases of influenza-like illness being treated by GPs. That system shows that influenza-like illness rates have been stable in the past number of weeks, ranging somewhere between 30 and 40 per 100,000 of population. To put this in context, the peak reported influenza-like illness rate during last winter, which was a high peak, was approximately 120,000 per week.

While we cannot predict with any certainty how the disease will progress from here, we are planning on the basis of certain assumptions which are broadly consistent with those either recommended by or used in other countries. These assume that approximately 25% of the population could become infected in a first wave and that up to 10% of the workforce may be absent from work during that time and that, perhaps, somewhere between 1% and 2% of cases may require treatment in hospital. In that scenario we would be looking at an equivalent influenza-like illness rate of in the region of 1,000 to 1,500 per 100,000.

It is indeed reassuring that in the great majority of cases the infection will be mild and self limiting and people will be able to care for themselves at home without having to visit a GP or hospital. Small numbers, especially those with underlying risks, will develop significant complications and some more people will, in that scenario of increased infection, inevitably and unfortunately, die. Therefore, an infection rate of 25% in a wave that could last up to 15 weeks would still have a significant impact on our health services. It is this that has been the focus of our continued planning and preparations over the past number of weeks and months. Even as a mild disease, it should be understood that people — we expect them to follow our advice — will be absent from workplaces and schools.

This means that the functioning of society as a whole would be impacted during such a wave of infection. It is for this reason we have been working with other sectors, through the interdepartmental committee I mentioned earlier. We have been saying for some time that businesses and organisations should develop business continuity plans, based on the excellent guidance produced by Forfás on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on business continuity planning for an influenza pandemic. This is available through the Department's website and through that of the Department of Health and Children.

A key issue being addressed is the finalisation of our arrangements to provide pandemic vaccine to the whole population. This is an enormous and logistically complex undertaking for the health system. We will, shortly, launch this plan and announce the precise arrangements that will be put in place. I take this opportunity to call on health professionals to come forward for vaccine once it is offered for them and to accept the responsibility they have to protect themselves in the first instance so that they will continue to be available for work and to ensure the patients they care for are not put at risk of picking up infection from an unvaccinated health care worker.

Again, I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make this presentation. Ireland is well prepared for what we face with regard to pandemic influenza. The plans have worked well up to now and we have had excellent co-operation and support from our health professionals at the front line, from teachers, unions, Departments, the media and public representatives. I am confident that if we continue to pull together in this way as a society, we will minimise the impact of this pandemic on the population and the functioning of society.

I thank Dr. Holohan. Does any other delegate want to comment now or will we take questions?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We are happy to take questions. We planned to make just one opening statement.

I welcome the delegation from the Department of Health and Children and the HSE and thank them for this and previous briefings. It is important we have as much information as possible.

The briefing has demonstrated balance by giving information and guidelines without creating panic. So far, the balance has been well struck. My questions relate to the current position. Does Dr. Holohan feel it is still likely we may get large waves of infection? We expected these would come earlier in the summer, particularly when there were cases in Irish colleges and among international students here. It was expected that when children returned to school we might see evidence of infection. However, that does not appear to be the case.

In the current time of cutbacks and lack of money, does Dr. Holohan still feel there is a need for a widespread vaccination programme? How much will this programme cost and how much of that cost is already committed for preordered vaccines and arrangements already put in place? Is there a contingency plan so that if the infection rate peters out we can withdraw some of the planned spending? This is a fair question at a time when the cervical cancer vaccine has been cancelled because of a lack of €15 million. Do we need to spend this amount of public money on the vaccination programme?

I do not know how much information the Department has or whether it can predict whether swine flu is likely to be widespread here. The figures given indicate a rate of between 30-40 per 100,000 for H1N1, but the rates for ordinary winter flu are 120 per 100,000 per week. There are, therefore, questions with regard to how expenditure is balanced and this is the key issue now.

Another issue arose in the media. Is it the case that some bonus or extra money was paid to public health doctors? Did that happen, or was it related to overtime or some specific extra workload?

I have a general question about the stocks of vaccine, about which there was some doubt earlier in the summer. Different countries have preordered different amounts of vaccine and there obviously needs to be a prioritisation of those who are offered it first, etc. Is the Department confident that it will be able to obtain sufficient vaccine should we need to have a full blown vaccination programme?

I will not be able to stay long as I have another appointment. I am assured by the presentation. When the pandemic was first mentioned, we were all worried about how many it would take out but we seem to be on top of the matter. Will the H1N1 virus disappear naturally or will it be here for a long time to come? Are we overreacting? The departmental officials have given us statistics which indicate that 70% to 80% of the population are very healthy and might survive this through treatment for the ordinary winter flu. Are we overreacting by obtaining these anti-viral drugs at considerable cost? While I know we can never be safe as far as health is concerned, I wonder about the cost, given that 80% will survive the pandemic through normal treatment. I know there are vulnerable and sick people and that there will be some deaths——

The 20% who will not survive might have a little to say about the cost involved.

I said 80% would not need treatment. That is somewhat different. I did not say they would not survive.

I am sorry. I thank the departmental officials for the information. The weekly public information updates are very good. Nothing causes panic among people more than not knowing. The constant information flow is very good. We received documentation from a group which calls itself the Irish Vaccine Injury Campaign with which I am sure the Department is in regular contact. The group posed some very interesting questions. I note the Department states in its submission that we will not use the vaccine until it is granted a licence sometime in October. That addresses some of the committee's questions about the status of the vaccine's licence and when it will be safe. Naturally a certain percentage will react to any vaccine. However, the Irish Vaccine Injury Campaign is concerned to ensure the vaccine will not be given to children aged less than six months. The Department's information note indicates that children up to six months have a natural immunity but that is not what most mothers would have been told. They believe natural immunity peters out no later than three months. Even if the child is being breast fed — our figures in this country are very low — natural immunity will not continue until six months.

The group's other question which is of interest to the committee relates to giving the drug company an exemption regarding damage that might be done by the vaccine. The Department's document indicates this has been done in the United Kingdom and the United States. In times of emergency we can understand why such fast-tracking happens. However, both these countries have a vaccine compensation scheme that we do not have. That is the crucial difference. Our experience of people who have been injured by a vaccine and their protracted legal battles with the State to receive compensation explains why we have a different attitude than they do in other countries. These questions need to be answered. If someone is injured by the vaccine — I hope it will not happen — what approach will we take? Will the drugs company be exempt from liability? Has it secured a waiver? I would also like to hear the delegates' comments on the fact that Ireland, unlike other countries, does not have a vaccine compensation scheme. Equally, we will not have a vaccination programme for children under six months of age.

I would like to conclude by raising an issue that may seem trivial. When a person catches swine flu and recovers, does he or she automatically have immunity? I will wait for an answer.

I also welcome the representatives of the HSE and thank them for their clear presentation and the information they have provided since this problem developed some months ago. Perhaps it is right that the committee is quick to criticise the HSE. We might take some pleasure in doing so from time to time. However, credit must be given to the HSE for the systems it has put in place in this instance. The huge amount of work and effort it has put into this matter is clear from the information being fed to us on a regular basis. None of us wants to minimise the serious nature of the problem. It has been mentioned that two people have died in this country. It is an even more serious matter for their families and those who have been left behind. However, we have to be sensible.

Some of the media reports have almost suggested that when swine flu comes, the whole country — factories, schools and other workplaces — will have to close down. It is as if it will be necessary to put barricades up around our homes in order that people will not be able to contact us. We have to be sensible — that cannot happen. We have to continue to function as a country, but we also have to take precautions. I have spoken to school principals and teachers since the end of the school holidays. I am impressed by the steps being taken by schools to educate young children on how to wash their hands and make sure they cough and sneeze properly. When my niece came home after her first day back at school, she was disgusted because she had done no writing or colouring — all she had done was wash her hands all day. I thought her teacher was right to spend the day teaching her how to wash her hands. If one learns how to wash one's hands, one will have done a valuable day's learning.

I share Deputy Lynch's concern about what will happen to young children if a significant number of Irish people are affected by swine flu, as suggested by the HSE officials. I refer, in particular, to young children with underlying medical conditions. One of the key aspects of the virus seems to be that it has a particular effect on people with underlying conditions, young children and pregnant women. If children under six months of age who are not vaccinated have a medical condition, swine flu could have serious consequences for them.

What will happen to people like me who receive the normal flu vaccine every winter? Will we receive two vaccines this winter? Will we receive a swine flu vaccine as well as the normal flu vaccine? People need information on this aspect of the matter because an element of confusion is associated with it, particularly among older people.

I would like to ask about the incubation period. If one gets swine flu, how long can one expect one's illness to last? How much time will pass before one is able to say, as Deputy Aylward put it, "this too has passed"?

My final question is the most serious. Are procedures in place to indicate that our hospitals will be able to cope if swine flu comes to Ireland in a manner that is as bad as has been predicted and many need to be hospitalised? I understand that in such circumstances very ill people would need to be isolated. Do we have the capacity to facilitate this? Is it possible that areas of hospitals used for other procedures will have to be redesignated in order that they can deal with swine flu? How would this impact on the rest of the population?

I welcome Dr. Holohan and his team who gave the committee a short, precise and helpful presentation. I have a couple of questions on pregnant women, among whom I have noted considerable concern about the vaccine. Information is not available on whether the vaccine is suitable for expectant mothers, a small proportion of the population. There are no guarantees that taking the vaccine will not have consequences for their health. While some people may ask from where such questions come, the negative history of earlier vaccines should be recalled. Mothers of small children also have fears about the vaccine, although they are much stronger among expectant mothers. I am aware that some pregnant women have left work and will not return to their employment until after the birth of their child.

I welcome the delegation. I have some concerns that continuing cuts in the public health system will weaken our defences in the face of a growing swine flu pandemic threat. In the winter period ahead an increased need for hospitalisation is expected, yet ongoing cuts in the numbers of hospital beds and the summer programme of closures have not been reversed. Beds have been closed at a number of hospital sites as part of the summer closure programme operated by the Health Service Executive in recent years. The programme remains in situ as we come into the middle of September. What can Dr. Holohan say to restore confidence in people that the health service will be able to cope in circumstances in which demand for hospital beds will increase? Given that we are at an early stage in the autumn-winter period, does the delegation have up-to-date information on real expectations because there is genuine fear across the country with the advent of the winter period?

On Deputy Kathleen Lynch's questions regarding the arrangement with the vaccine manufacturer, there was, apparently, a quid pro quo in which a waiver would apply in relation to liability in the event of, God forbid, there being an adverse reaction to the vaccine. Historically, there is much evidence that such reactions can and do happen. I understand the quid pro quo is that we will waive the manufacturer’s liability and, in return, it will speed up delivery of the vaccine. Are such arrangements the norm? Have such circumstances applied in previous threatened pandemics or do they apply in other circumstances in which vaccines may be required? I emphasise the point that, as Deputy Lynch noted, we do not have in situ the arrangements that apply in other jurisdictions regarding compensation in the event of something untoward taking place.

It was indicated that briefings would be provided for party spokespersons on health, of which I am one. I always come at the end of the litter in this regard because I do not have full membership status of the joint committee. I have not had such a briefing, although I pay tribute to the Health Service Executive's role in this regard in the past when it was more inclusive and ensured health spokespersons of all political parties, including Sinn Féin, had access to information. I speak specifically about the preparation of the two expert group reports on pandemic influenza published in 2007, one of which was a supplement to the other. These are substantial tomes. Has the body of work represented in both documents been the basis on which officials have worked? Are these the guiding tomes for the preparations for, and the approach to, the threat of a H1N1 pandemic? I expect this is the case, although Dr. Holohan referred to updates. I attended the launch of the 2007 report with representatives of the various parties. One of its recommendations was the development of a national electronic contact tracing system for monitoring and managing initial contacts of patients with pandemic influenza. Has that approach been used in the current incident? What is current thinking in this regard? If it was operated, how did it work? The group also recommended that every effort be made to achieve the WHO target of a 75% uptake of seasonal vaccination in the high risk population by 2010. Has this objective been achieved?

On behalf of every member of the committee, I convey our sympathy to the families that have been bereaved as a result of the outbreak. On their behalf, I compliment Dr. Holohan on his work and acknowledge that he has been powerfully communicating his message to the public. The people have responded well in much the same way they responded to the threat of foot and mouth disease. In general, they respond with alacrity and understanding and respond to leadership in a positive way.

I refer to the questions relating to vaccination. While we have received correspondence relating to those who might suffer as a result of vaccination, most people would like it to be administered as quickly as possible if the vaccine is available. The first line of defence concerns those at risk with underlying medical conditions. Is our response on a par with that around the world in making the vaccine available? I appreciate a vaccine had to developed but if this outbreak had been more virulent and widespread, we would have witnessed many more deaths since April, yet the vaccine will not be licensed in Ireland until next month. Are we moving as fast as it is possible to move? Is our response on a par with what is happening around the world? Have other countries succeeded in at least targeting those at particular risk? What is the position on offering the vaccination nationwide? Will it be a DIY initiative on the part of the HSE or will the vaccine be administered by general practitioners?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I thank members for their questions which I will take in the order they were asked.

Deputy O'Sullivan and others raised one question in a number of ways. On the basis of all the advice we have, as well as the patterns of pandemics in the past, we are still anticipating that we will see a wave of infection occurring some time during the course of the winter. We cannot absolutely categorically say that it will happen but our best predictions and planning is based on an assumption that it will happen. The previous three pandemics that occurred in the past century were all associated with waves of infection affecting about 20% to 40% of the population in the initial waves. They were usually associated with two to three and sometimes even more waves.

This comes back to one of the questions that was asked about the importance of the vaccine and the need for a need for a focus on vaccination not just about mitigating the effect of a first wave but making people immune from subsequent waves. One of the patterns seen previously with pandemics is that they tend to change their behaviour or the groups of people for whom they are a risk in second and subsequent waves. The usual pattern is that the first wave tends to affect younger people and has a milder impact. It tends to have a more severe impact on older age groups in subsequent waves. One of the reasons we will be seeking to get a high uptake of the vaccine would not be for just mitigating this first wave but to protect people next winter.

Deputy Aylward is not with us at present but he asked about the time it takes for the dissipation of a wave of infection. The wave of infection tends to dissipate in a population after 15 weeks to 16 weeks. The usual curve is that first it would increase and then have dropped back within that 16-week timeframe and one would have successive waves occurring over winter periods in the usual scenario. We would expect to see it dropping and then peaking the following winter. That would happen for a couple of years. That was certainly the pattern we saw with the previous three global pandemics in the last century. That is the rationale for continuing to focus on it.

I mentioned that this is a milder infection than we thought originally but we are still concerned with the numbers of cases. Given the numbers I presented to the committee, there could still be a significant impact on our public health system and potentially there would also be a significant impact on the functioning of society more generally — schools, workplaces, businesses and so on. For the functioning of society and for the protection of the public health system, as well as the protection of the individuals who are vaccinated, we will still be in line with all the developed countries and the recommendations of the WHO in planning to offer vaccine to the whole population.

On the issue of the range of infection from 30 to 40 versus 120, the 120 was a peak of infection that was seen last winter. It was reported through a system that we have had in place for over ten years that reports on the number of cases of so called influenza-like illness being reported through the general practitioner network. That 120 rate was the highest we have seen since that system began ten years ago, but it still gives some context for where we are at present with a rate of 30 to 40.

An issue in respect of public health doctors was raised. There was a situation where certain awards that had been due were withheld because an agreed out-of-hours system of working by public health doctors was not put in place. However, as a consequence of the way in which the public health doctors worked on this pandemic, we decided we would offer that payment in exchange for an agreement to work the out-of-hours rosters which they have agreed to work and have been working over the course of this infection. Since that agreement has been reached, those out-of-hours rosters have been working for the past two to three months. One of our concerns at the outset of the pandemic was that if we did not have a public health infrastructure in place because those out-of-hours rosters were not being worked, that would potentially impact on our ability to be able to respond.

In effect it is the implementation of a system that was previously agreed as being required——

Dr. Tony Holohan

It was previously agreed that it was required

——but the conditions were now met. It was not an extra bonus.

Dr. Tony Holohan

No. These conditions had not been met and for that reason general round awards and so on had been withheld. The agreement was then fulfilled and implemented and has been working satisfactorily. Perhaps the HSE will offer more detail on how that has been operating. That was the rationale for the withheld payment being released.

My colleague will answer the questions on the vaccine damage. I ask that the HSE respond to the question on the normal flu vaccine because we are beginning the seasonal flu vaccine campaign. The interaction of the two is important and the HSE will address the issue. The incubation period of this infection is a number of days. People can be infectious for a 12 to 24-hour period before the onset of symptoms. We regard people as being infectious for some time after infection. We recommend that they should stay out of either the workplace or the schoolplace for up to seven days after the onset of symptoms. In that position people should voluntarily quarantine themselves at home.

My colleague may deal with——

Having had and cleared the infection, should people be vaccinated?

Dr. Tony Holohan

I apologise as I was supposed to respond to the Deputy on that question. Our recommendation still will be that even if people have had the infection, they should be vaccinated because one cannot be certain of the level of immune response one gets by exposure to the disease. In technical terms, the viral load one's body may receive may not be such as to boost one's immunity to the level one might need. It would not do so as efficiently as would a vaccine. Consequently, we still recommend that those who have had the infection be immunised.

I will ask the HSE to deal with Deputy Ó Caoláin's specific questions in respect of the impact on the public health system. On the question as to whether the stocks of vaccine were sufficient, we had put in place an arrangement called an advance purchase agreement before this incident began. Essentially, in the event of a pandemic being declared, this agreement would give us guaranteed access to vaccine. As a result of this arrangement, we were able to guarantee the population of this country access to the vaccines we now have in place, that is, the so-called 7.7 million doses that have begun to arrive in the country. A number of other countries within the European Union and beyond that were not as fortunate to have such arrangements in place or whose arrangements were not quite as broad are making efforts on a collective basis, facilitated by the Commission, to put in place arrangements to gain access to vaccines. Therefore, such countries are not as well prepared as are we. Other countries may not have sufficient vaccine to offer up to two doses to the entire population as we do. We are in the top tier of countries in respect of our arrangements and preparedness to provide the vaccine.

I refer to the question on the percentage of the vaccine required for the population. Based on the information we have available and the guidance available from the WHO and elsewhere, we still believe we must offer two doses of the vaccine to every person in the country in a planned fashion. Even if this changes, however, we still are in the secure position of knowing that, if needed, we have a sufficient quantity of the vaccine. If this changes in line with international advice, we certainly will change our position in this regard. My colleague, Dr. Devlin, may deal with the issue in respect of pregnant mothers.

I believe I have dealt with most of the questions to which I should respond. If I have missed any, I am more than happy to be reminded of them. I ask the HSE to deal with the specific questions asked regarding safety, the vaccine programme and the impact on the public health system.

Dr. Patrick Doorley

Can Deputy Lynch remind me of the question regarding safety?

Mr. Brian Mullen

Does this pertain to the safety of the vaccine?

I referred to the indemnity offered.

Mr. Brian Mullen

I will deal with the indemnity issue. To put it in context, more than a year before the outset of the current H1N1 outbreak, we had been in discussions with the vaccine companies to secure an advance purchase agreement that would give us, as Dr. Holohan noted, access to supplies of a pandemic vaccine. This was done in the context of the H5N1 avian flu strain which, in terms of both morbidity and mortality, was significantly more severe than the current H1N1 strain. We had begun negotiations with the vaccine companies to secure a supply of a pandemic vaccine, albeit in the context of the H5N1 avian flu strain. That was negotiated over a number of months on the basis that a pandemic vaccine would be licensed on the basis of a mock-up vaccine where there were no clinical data on its safety. In that context, Ireland, many other European countries and the United States were required by the vaccine companies to provide indemnity for them because there were no safety data available. We have provided that indemnity but it does not absolve the vaccine companies from having quality standards in the manufacture and production of the vaccine. In terms of the current H5N1 strain, given that a vaccine for a different strain of flu is manufactured every year and that vaccine companies do this on a yearly basis, it is a well tried and tested manufacturing process. We are confident on the issue of adverse reaction. The WHO has stated it expects adverse events to be at a minimum. It does not expect significant adverse reactions and is satisfied that the current vaccine available will be safe. It is putting in place a rigorous reporting system to ensure any adverse reactions are reported. That is why we are ahead of the queue in securing supplies. Had we not got the advance purchase agreement in position, we would be further down the queue. It was done in the context of dealing with the H5N1 strain.

I appreciate the answer but Mr. Mullen must agree that more people will receive this vaccine than in any vaccination up to this point. One can take the polio vaccine as an example. It will cover the entire population. I am not referring to how production takes place and understand there is no indemnity. If there is shoddy practice in production, it is a completely different matter. The possibility of someone having an adverse reaction to the vaccine is high because it always happens. This has nothing to do with the vaccine but the combination of the vaccine and the individual. I accept fully that it was practical and reasonable for the HSE to take the action it took. We must seriously consider what we will do if someone has an adverse reaction.

There is a report on the desk of the Minister on compensation for injury caused by vaccines. Will she introduce this? Will she examine this issue in the near future? Have provisions been put in place in the event that someone receives an injury caused by the vaccine? I accept fully that what the HSE did was practical, reasonable and for the best reasons. Who will pick up the tab if someone has an adverse reaction to this vaccine?

Who picks up the tab if someone has a reaction to the common flu virus? In the circumstances, is it reasonable that it takes six months from the outbreak of a virus until the time when we can discuss launching a vaccination campaign? Is that normal?

I have no difficulty with the Chairman asking that question but this is different. In the normal course of events, the flu vaccine that we all receive is not administered to children as young as six months old.

That is a fair point.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I will take the final question. Almost by definition it is only at the point when a pandemic is declared that one begins to produce a vaccine against the specific strain and this is a virus we have never seen before. There is a defined minimum period that must elapse to allow for preparation of a new vaccine. To answer the specific question, we are no further behind any other country in our access to the vaccine simply because at its minimum it is a 16-week process. I am sure vaccine companies throughout the world have been working night and day to get the vaccine to countries which have contracts in place with them.

Mr. Brian Mullen

On the question of safety, proposals in respect of a vaccine injuries compensation scheme are being finalised and the Minister gave a commitment in the Dáil to examine the matter. To my knowledge, the scheme is not yet on the Minister's desk but will be shortly. Adverse reactions occur through no one's fault. Most will not have an adverse reaction but on a rare occasion it can happen. I will leave it to the medics to comment on the matter.

I thank Mr. Mullen.

It is important in the context of this discussion to quantify the extent of the risk.

Dr. Tony Holohan

As Mr. Mullen stated, the vaccine is being produced using tried and tested methodology. I accept what Deputy Lynch states that it has not been used to deliver influenza vaccine to the same quantity but the methodology has been in place for many years to produce vaccines with a rapid turnaround. It is based on the strains circulating in the southern hemisphere in our summer or their winter; we prepare a vaccine that mirrors these strains and it is usually ready at this time of the year. We have not seen any significant safety concerns being expressed with regard to its use.

With regard to the arrangements being put in place for pandemic vaccines, the WHO has sought to reassure us as a member state of the safety of the vaccines. It is important to get that message out. From a public health point of view, I reassure members and the general public that we are dealing with a vaccine that will prove to be safe. We will not introduce vaccines and recommend their use unless we believe the balance of risk and benefit is such that people will benefit from receiving them.

The queues waiting to get the vaccine will prove Dr. Holohan right.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I hope the Deputy is right.

Mr. Brian Mullen

The WHO has issued an information sheet on the safety of the pandemic vaccine which is available on its website. It estimates the risk to be very low.

For clarity, are there any contra-indications for people with particular conditions who should not receive it?

Dr. John Devlin

Vaccine safety and efficacy are very technical issues. A lot of consideration has been given to them in Ireland by our expert groups, the European authorities and the WHO. The vaccine may not work for a small number of people because of its type, particularly——

My question is whether there are people with specific conditions who should be told they should not receive it.

Dr. John Devlin

We will have to wait for the licence to specify that detail. As I stated, we are in very close contact with the European authorities.

Deputy O'Sullivan also asked a question about very young children. That may be a group for which the vaccine may not work. We will put in place alternative strategies to ensure such children are not put at risk, for example, by vaccinating their household contacts. Vaccinating those around children who are immunosuppressed will provide them with protection. We will also promote a policy on breast-feeding, as the Deputy mentioned. These are measures that can be put in place to minimise the risk of infection of very young children. We are also ensuring children in at-risk groups who are older than six months will be given priority when it comes to being given the vaccine. They will be among the groups at higher risk of developing complications which will receive priority in vaccination.

Dr. Tony Holohan

I skipped some of Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions. I can confirm that we are basing our response on the documents to which he referred but we supplement them with the international guidance which for the most part comes from the WHO and the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control. As he correctly noted, we have updated our guidelines in the light of experience and have been more specific, where necessary. Some of the expert guidance came from the pandemic expert group.

I will ask the HSE representatives to address the question of electronic tracing. As we have moved from containment to mitigation strategies, contact tracing is no longer a significant feature of our response in that it is not vital that we track down each individual contact. That is why the system was not in place for our initial response. We have in place a computerised infectious disease reporting system to report all cases of a clinically notified infectious disease, as opposed to one which identifies contacts.

I also asked about the cohort who are at risk and reaching a target of 75% with the seasonal vaccination.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Seasonal influenza vaccination is recommended for two groups, namely, those in a particular age group and those who are medically at risk. Both groups will be part of the delivery campaign for the supply of pandemic vaccine. I will ask the HSE representatives to comment on where we are in achieving the 75% standard, a recommendation from the WHO which was included in the 2007 report.

I would be more than happy to include committee members in our briefings. I do not dispute the Deputy's claims but if I am not mistaken, somebody from his office attended the first briefing.

That may well have been the case. I will have to check.

In respect of the material circulated during the Irish vaccination campaign, was the agreement reached with manufacturers unique? I asked whether this was the norm in the past and ask for clarification in that regard. Will somebody address my question on the public health acute hospital bed provisions?

Dr. Tony Holohan

My colleagues from the HSE will do so. They may also supplement my reply.

The agreement we have reached with manufacturers is not the usual arrangement. For the reasons set out by Mr. Mullen, it reflects our requirement to have urgent access to vaccines for a newly emergent strain, the nature of which we did not know but which has thankfully turned out to be mild. We needed the vaccine to be made available within a timeframe which would be valuable to us in terms of the impact on the entire population. That is why the arrangement applied in this instance but does not normally apply in the management of infectious diseases.

Dr. Patrick Doorley

I will speak about the capacity of the system, while Mr. Maguire will address the question of vaccines.

If the numbers we estimate materialise, they will exert great pressure on every health service in the world. It is important to note, however, that treatment will involve self-care in people's homes. Clearly, some people such as those at risk and pregnant women will require GP care. An estimated 1% may need to be admitted to hospital. Every hospital and community service manager has been given a detailed plan which sets out levels of escalation according to the impact on the service. We have created a detailed template for the purpose of gathering information on all aspects of this impact. For example, we are carefully examining the impact on general practice by various means. Where there is pressure on a hospital, we may have to defer routine outpatient activity, routine elective surgery and other elective activity. We will still provide care for those suspected of having cancer, who have had heart attacks or are in pain or distress. However, we will have to defer some elective activity to make sure we can cope.

With the HSE, we are also discussing capacity with the private sector, should it become necessary to do so. We are looking at our critical care capacity and how it can be expanded in different ways. We can use beds better, as has been shown in studies carried out in the past two years. The HSE now has a head of clinical care and quality and there are clinical directors in every hospital who will be working with managers to help with prioritisation to make best use of the available capacity. At certain stages we will escalate this policy and the focus will be on prioritising services, in which regard this will be no different from any other country.

Mr. Maguire will add a few words because he has been involved in the capacity planning to which I referred.

Mr. Gavin Maguire

We commenced planning for a pandemic — albeit H5N1 — in 2005 based on WHO recommendations. Since that date every hospital in the country and every local health office and ambulance service has worked through a series of preparedness actions which are complete in virtually all cases. Our modelling data project infection rates of 25% and hospitalisation rates of 1% but there is no way to be certain of the projections because they are simply modelling assumptions. As the infection spreads around the world, we receive more data which firm up our numbers but there is no way of actually knowing what they will be. The virus could change in nature, as happened in 1918 when the first wave was relatively mild. Our hospitals have to be prepared for a wide range of possibilities and each one has drawn up a list of activities which are to be deferred, depending on the scale of admissions with which they are faced. This planning is not normal but prepares for the potentially extraordinary effects of H1N1.

A Deputy asked a question on whether people would be isolated in hospitals. We have only had 100 admissions so far but are planning for a significant wave over 15 weeks. If that happens, there will be an escalation of activity, week by week, and whole wards will begin to be taken over by pandemic patients. That is also how it will be handled internationally. As the process reaches its peak in weeks five, six and seven, there will be a suspension of a broad range of activities in hospitals. If the strain remains relatively mild and the infection rate is lower than it is currently, the postponement of other activities will not be carried out too vigorously. If we have a very bad wave, however, it will be draconian.

I thank Dr. Doorley and Mr. Maguire for their frankness. This is an unknown and there is quite an extensive amount of guesstimate, so to speak, involved in terms of percentage of through traffic and the need for hospitalisation. My earlier contribution highlighted the fact that the summer bed closure programme has not come to an end in a number of hospitals which I have checked over the past 24 hours in preparation for today's meeting. That is altogether aside from those hospitals which have lost the entire cohort of their acute hospital bed facilities.

I am concerned about this. It is fine in some measure to say that elective work and goodness knows whatever else may need to be suspended for a period but this will be a major concern for many people who may have needed elective work over the summer. Sixteen beds were closed in Mullingar over the summer, 15 were closed in Tullamore and 34 in Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe. I would give the figures for Monaghan only all its beds were closed and we do not have any to which to refer.

In all these areas the likelihood is that in the months ahead there will be increased need. Will the restoration of the summer closures be adequate to deal with the threatened throughput? I know it cannot be quantified at this point but what sources are being considered for introduction by the HSE to hospital sites throughout the country in the event of the worst-case scenario presenting? It is far from ideal for those who must already wait. Waiting lists are very serious for much elective work and in other areas of more pressing need. I argue that these would be non-elective procedures but that argument is not always shared by the HSE and those with a responsibility to monitor our health services in this country.

Will the witnesses comment further to give more comfort? Will beds be reintroduced where closures and reductions in bed numbers have already taken place or has consideration been given to restoring bed numbers depleted in a number of hospitals throughout the country even aside from the summer bed closures?

I assume that in any emergency plan, all beds are to be commissioned. Is that the case?

Dr. Patrick Doorley

I am not sure how much detail the committee wants.

We need not get into the cases of individual hospitals but generally, as Deputy Ó Caoláin has indicated, if there is available capacity and a need for beds, I assume those beds will be brought back into commission.

Dr. Patrick Doorley

We are concerned with pandemic planning and we are engaged in the exact type of exercise in which every health service in every developed country is engaging. We are creating extra capacity in different ways by using beds in a better way. A number of studies show that in this country we are overly reliant on hospital beds. We are a young population and it is therefore unreasonable to say that we should have the same number of beds as countries such as the UK and Germany which have a much older population structure.

I do not want to get into that debate, either with the witness or Deputies.

If we had the time and money to build community services, that may have been a true statement but we have not. We are facing €800 million in cuts in the HSE.

We will have Professor Drumm here in a number of weeks.

This is at the same time that we are talking about opening beds again.

We can discuss those issues with Professor Drumm when he appears before us. He ventilated such matters over the weekend in a media report. What is relevant to the current discussion is that if there is a particular crisis in an area which requires beds to be used, surely the beds will be used.

Dr. Patrick Doorley

Absolutely. I return to the point that most care for swine flu will be self-care. After that it will be general practitioners and then hospitals. We will be using the capacity we have in the best way possible. That will require taking some measures we would not normally take. We are being straight about this. It is no different from any other country. It is happening in the UK and in the best health systems in the world and it is what we must do. We have the advantage now of having very senior doctors in every hospital who are working with management and clinical directors. They will help the managers to make those choices and priorities and to use the capacity we have to the best. That is what we must do.

In cases where we are changing services we will give the public notice. We will try to give two or three weeks' notice if, for example, outpatient appointments or surgical operations have to be deferred. We are talking about a situation where these planning assumptions — they are not predictions — actually materialise. We are being up-front about that.

Does Dr. Kelleher wish to comment?

Dr. Kevin Kelleher

I shall talk about the vaccination programme. I hope Dr. Holohan has already indicated why we want to do this. We have a vaccine which can prevent people becoming ill from this virus. That will mitigate significantly what we need to do, if we can get it done before the waves come, not only the first but the subsequent waves. It will make a major inroad on their impact and as this discussion has shown, the consequent need for changes will be less if we are able to vaccinate people. Our ability to do this is being put in place and, as Dr. Holohan stated, we will come out with our plan in the next three or four weeks and announce what will happen.

Initially, the programme will very much be dictated by the availability of the licensed vaccine. We are not 100% clear about the timing because the companies are in discussion with the European authorities. We always said it would be October and still hope it will happen in that month.

The vaccine will stop people getting the disease. That is clear and is a very important part of the programme. We set up two groups with whom to begin vaccination: our own workers within the health care system, both public and private, and those people who have medical risk conditions that make them more susceptible to the more serious impact of the disease. These are the groups with which we must deal first and we are planning to do so immediately.

Subsequently, we will put in place a system that can vaccinate, on a weekly basis, the number of people for whom we have vaccine. Who these people are is being decided at the moment. It depends on how the disease moves on and how we are able to use the vaccine in different groups of the population. We have put those plans in place and know generally how we are going but we still want to work out some details with the Department of Health and Children. As Dr. Holohan said, towards the end of this month or in early October, we will announce the exact details of how this will happen and progress.

The vaccine is available for virtually everybody in the population according to our understanding. We have to wait until we get the exact details from the companies who have had their licences approved by the European authorities. Our understanding is that the vaccine will be available for virtually everybody in the population. The only group likely to be excluded is that aged under six months, the reason being that in Europe flu vaccine is never given to children under that age and is never licensed for them. As Dr. Devlin said, there are ways to help in this regard and we must look at how we can help to protect those children in a number of ways.

The issue now is to try to ensure everyone comes forward when we ask and that is a large part of our approach. I was very pleased to hear what Deputy Lynch said about queues. We hope there will be queues and that this will be something with which we will have to cope. We are making every effort to put the system in place and, as Dr. Doorley said, we are working on the details with regard to hospitals and general services. Similarly, the systems and processes we need are being put in place. People are ready to start giving this vaccine when we are legally allowed to do it and they are ready to do it using local processes. That is our position.

I echo what Dr. Holohan said, namely, that we really want everyone to come forward when asked. It will make a big difference. This is our main way to mitigate the impact of the disease as mentioned by Deputy Ó Caoláin.

In terms of the provision of seasonal vaccine, as the committee heard, the main groups are those over 65 years of age and those with at-risk conditions. Among the over-65s the uptake rate is 60% to 65%. We do not have as accurate an assessment for those in the at-risk groups but our estimations put the current rate at 30% to 40%. In some of the work I am doing I am trying to make sure we put in place systems to deal with the seasonal flu and the pandemic flu. We are working hard with a number of people around the country on how we can make sure matters improve. What we are doing will have an impact in the future.

A meeting was hosted by the WHO two weeks ago which a number of Irish representatives attended to discuss vaccination policy. We are trying to address the issue of purchasing and administering the vaccine to make sure we will be on a par with the top quarter or one third in Europe. We are in the top third in purchasing the vaccine and, as far as we can ascertain, in how we intend to administer it. In European terms, as all members of the committee said, this is not something we have done for a very long time. All of Europe has to examine how it does it and we are sharing our experiences. We will learn very rapidly from what has happened elsewhere, if necessary. We are confident that we will be able to provide the vaccine in the way necessary. The rate will be dictated primarily by our contracts in terms of how much of the vaccine we will have at any one time.

The statistics the delegation has given us indicate the uptake of the seasonal vaccine among the over-65s and that the figure for other at-risk groups is more difficult to quantify, but there is a significantly lower percentage. It is difficult to be prescriptive in how one can get more people to voluntarily accept to receive the seasonal vaccine. Would it be fair to speculate that in the upcoming vaccination programme we might see some encouragement, residual goodwill and interest to increase uptake of the seasonal vaccine in future years? Will it marry the interest in dealing with the immediate threat posed by swine flu and the interest in the longer term in trying to reach WHO targets, which would be in all our interests?

Assuming that there will be further waves of the flu next year and the year after, will people need a booster shot next year if they receive the vaccine this year?

Dr. Kevin Kelleher

We are actually giving two doses. Our information from the manufacturers and internationally is that one has to give two doses three or four weeks apart. As Dr. Holohan said, the usual international discussion will be hosted by the WHO on which vaccine should be given next year. We will presume that almost certainly the vaccine to deal with the virus this year will be contained in next year's seasonal flu vaccine also. That is what we expect to happen. However, that is a decision made by the WHO every year.

Would that be the response to the question Deputy Conlon raised, that in the current year somebody at risk should receive the traditional and specific vaccines?

Dr. Kevin Kelleher

I wrote to general practitioner colleagues and others in the system this week stating the seasonal flu vaccine was available in this country and that we would actively advise those in the at risk groups which we normally discuss, namely, people over 65 years of age and those with medical conditions, to receive the seasonal flu vaccine as quickly as possible when their GP asked them to do so. We are pushing that message very hard. We will engage in a media campaign in the next week or two to follow up on this. Deputy Ó Caoláin was quite correct. We would hope that as a consequence of this year we will see a greater impetus in the area of the seasonal flu. Seasonal flu every year has a major impact on society. We have a way of preventing that and it would be nice if we could get our rates in the main groups well above 75% and it would make a big impact on our health each year.

Is it safe for pregnant women to get the vaccine?

Dr. Kevin Kelleher

The information we have to date about these vaccines indicates it is. All the information we have received to date indicates that the vaccine is safe for pregnant women. We will be absolutely clear on that issue when we get to that point in time. It was discussed during the past week or so by our national expert group on immunisation and that is what it confirmed at that point in time as well.

This is a question Dr. Kelleher may not like to answer but somebody raised it. Is Dr. Kelleher as yet in a position to indicate the likely cost of a nationwide vaccination programme?

Dr. Kevin Kelleher

No. We are still working out those details. We are working on the numbers and how it can be done. We do not have that detail ready as yet.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Suffice to say, we will do everything we can to try to minimise any potential cost associated with delivering the vaccine, given the times we are in.

Dr. John Devlin

Deputy Conlon and Deputy Blaney asked whether the vaccine was safe for pregnant women. I will not delay the committee but there is much information on the websites on practical advice for women who are pregnant on where to seek treatment if they are worried about symptoms, issues around vaccination and so on. That information is available and can be accessed quite easily.

Dr. Kevin Kelleher

There is www.swineflu.ie, the Department of Health and Children website, the HSE and the HPSC websites. These websites have a massive amount of information available to people both in lay terms and in scientific terms. Any time we make a statement on something we provide a mixture of the lay document and the scientific document. There is an immense amount of information available. It is very difficult for any of us to quantify it for the committee. A good example of that was when the schools reopened. The amount of information that was clearly shown on the Department of Education and Science website and on our website helped a good deal in regard to what happened in the schools in the first two weeks.

I thank the representatives from the Department of Health and Children and the HSE and wish to say how impressed I am with the presentations. There is an analogy here with the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. Given that we have not been hit sharply yet we are in a state of false calmness. I will never forget the outbreak of foot and mouth disease when the then Minister for Agriculture and Food, Mr. Joe Walsh, saved the day. As far as I am aware we have not yet had a pandemic and there is a calmness, with the exception of parents and pregnant women who are very worried and apprehensive. The fear has not yet set into society because we have not had a strong wave of the pandemic. I am aware that one of the Minister's assistants has had it. I met him the day before yesterday but I will not name him. He was the first person I had met who said he had swine flu. Am I correct in saying we have not been hit yet?

Dr. Tony Holohan

We have had a certain number of cases. The Senator is correct. While we have made the assumption that we could see a wave of 25% — we have not begun to see that. The Senator is absolutely right. In that sense the full impact of what we could be facing has not yet confronted us. For that reason we are not being complacent. During the course of the afternoon we have been trying to get it across that if it happens in that way with that number of cases, albeit with such a small proportion of people requiring hospitalisation, it will still have an impact. It is not as if we will be able to continue business as usual in the health service and that this will take place on the side, will have no impact and nobody will notice.

What about general practitioners? They are already under pressure.

Dr. Tony Holohan

Every part of the health system will have to make its contribution to minimising or mitigating the impact of this. It will have an impact if it occurs at that level. Our job is to try on the one hand to put in place a set of measures that reduce that risk as much as possible while on the other hand to be clear in advising people about the situation, which is that while in the great majority of cases this is a mild and self-limiting disease from which people will recover spontaneously without the need for any medical intervention, there will be an impact simply by virtue of the number of cases if it occurs at the level that is being assumed in the numbers we have set out. It will not go by without being noticed and without putting pressure and stress on our system generally and on all the front-line professionals who are involved. Our job is to be clear about that as well as to ensure that as many measures are in place as possible to mitigate it. That is what is happening.

Will the Minister for Health and Children lead from the front if we hit the crisis, the way the then Minister for Agriculture and Food, former Deputy Walsh, did? His leadership was very significant in dealing with the foot and mouth disease problem.

The Senator will have to take that up directly with the Minister.

I am serious about this. We will need a figurehead to take us through it if people begin to panic.

Dr. Tony Holohan

From the outset we have had arrangements in place and the Minister has been briefed on every step. We have discussed every important development with her and she has made a number of presentations to her Cabinet colleagues on the details of this as it has proceeded. The Cabinet has been kept well informed by the Minister. The Senator can be absolutely assured of her leadership in all of this.

We focused a great deal on vaccination in the course of our response this afternoon. It is worth pointing out that vaccination, albeit very important, is still only one of the tools in our armoury against this pandemic and the impact it is likely to have. I still believe the first and best line of defence is the level of understanding the public has of the basic measures individuals can take to prevent themselves from becoming infected and, if they are ill, to stay at home and take appropriate measures to stop them passing on the infection. That is what the "Catch It, Bin It, Kill It" campaign is about — simple measures people can take. They should cover their nose or mouth with a tissue when sneezing, always use a clean tissue, dispose of it appropriately and wash their hands. A range of basic hygiene measures can be taken to control infection and the spread of infection in the household as well as in school and health care settings.

The understanding must also be there on the part of our front-line professionals in terms of their watchfulness and ability to pick this up. That has worked very well. Where cases have presented to the health care system they have been picked up quite early and measures have been instituted appropriately. A range of measures can be put in place by businesses and organisations to ensure continuity of their services in the event that employees are out ill. All those measures, taken together with vaccination, will mitigate the pandemic. It is not the case that our strategy is based on simply getting vaccines into people's arms and nothing else.

We appreciate that. I thank the delegation again for its presentation. A fine job is being done and we wish the delegation continued success with it.

We will adjourn until Tuesday, 22 September, when we will meet in private session to discuss the work programme for the remainder of the year.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.45 p.m. sine die.
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