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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jun 2010

Health Issues for Carers: Discussion with Carers Association

We are in public session for our first session with the Carers Association. I welcome Mr. Frank Goodwin, Mr. Enda Egan, Ms Clare Duffy and Mr. Frank Lahiffe.

Before we begin I advise you that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

We shall now hear the presentation followed by a question and answer session with Members.

Mr. Enda Egan

I thank the committee for having us today during national carers' week. This is a great opportunity for us to come here on behalf of family carers to voice the main issues that affect carers regarding health issues.

The members have the document and I shall go very quickly through the first section or introduction. Most members will be very much aware of the role of family carers and the kinds of statistics that sit behind it so I shall run though this briefly. There are about 160,000 family carers in Ireland, according to the last census. As everybody will know, family carers provide very valuable work looking after loved ones in their own homes. By and large, a carer does not make a choice to provide care. An actual incident happens to a loved one, to a husband, wife, child with special needs or a person who gets a terminal illness. Somebody in the family has to make a decision to stay at home and provide that care. Obviously, this saves the State huge sums of money.

There are about 40,000 full-time carers in Ireland, people who are doing this job around the clock, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They are not in a position to leave unless somebody else comes in to fill in for them because of the level of care required by the person who is being cared for. According to the 2006 census there are more than 90,000 people who provide care and work in paid employment. Some 14,000 of those work full-time as well as providing more than 43 hours of care per week. That is an horrendous load to have on one person. Statistics wise, there are just over 5,000 young carers in Ireland but I would not know whether these are aged between 15 and 19 years. The statistics from the 2006 census did not allow us to pick up how many carers there are below the age of 15. The new census to take place in 2011 will be able to pick that up, which is a strong development.

It is fair to say that in recent years there have been a number of developments within the social welfare framework that support carers. The development of the half-rate allowance is obviously very significant and the development of the respite grant and the carer's benefit certainly support many people and are very welcome. It is of vital importance they are all protected within the forthcoming budget. We estimate that carers in Ireland save the State approximately €2 billion. That is by comparison to the lowest point on the home help pay scale. When one works out the number of hours carers provide and multiply that figure by the lowest point on the home help pay scale, which is just over €14, one comes to a figure of about €2.8 billion. That is not comparing it to the cost of institutional care which would be very much higher. That figure of €2.8 billion is a very defensible one.

I shall move quickly into the priorities for the Carers Association and family carers in terms of health services for this year. There are about ten of these and I shall try to move through them as quickly as I can. Respite is probably the most important practical solution intervention that carers require in their own homes to allow them a break. There are different types of respite. The traditional model is where the person being cared for goes into institutional respite, to a local day-care unit or nursing home for a period, perhaps a day or two or three weeks. That is very important. Another important aspect which carers tend to look for more often is home respite where the person being cared for stays at home and somebody comes in to relieve the carer. All research carried out in recent years indicates that home respite is where the trend is heading. Home care packages which were introduced a number of years ago currently run to an investment of approximately €130 million per year by the HSE. This has been used very wisely by the HSE in terms of providing respite to carers. The home care package can be used to buy in help to the home which is specifically built around giving the carer a break. It is also used to provide help to the carer in their caring duties. We find that is working well where it can be obtained. There appears to be some anecdotal evidence in certain parts of the country that home care packages are not always put back in place after a person goes into long-term care or perhaps passes away. It is difficult to be absolutely certain of that but the evidence we have, as a provider of home care packages, would be that in certain parts of the country those packages are not replaced at present.

Home help is of vital importance to the family, the carer and the person being cared for. Evidence at present suggests that home help is being reduced and is difficult to get in certain parts of the country, especially in the south. In Cork, in particular, at the moment it appears it is almost impossible to access the home help service. On a daily basis we have telephone calls from carers reporting that the number of hours of home help they have been in receipt of are being reduced, very often to a point where the service is ineffective. We had a situation very recently where somebody who was receiving an hour of home help per week was reduced to 45 minutes. To be honest, it is very difficult to see how effective 45 minutes of help in a week is to anybody. This would be a very valuable service if it was held at the appropriate levels one would expect.

Another worrying trend we see within the home help service is that in certain parts of the country it appears that carers who are in receipt of the carer's allowance are being deterred from accessing home help service and that at local level the HSE is saying that because the person is getting a payment from the State for the work they are doing therefore they should not get the home help service. The State is very clear that the carer's allowance is not a payment for the work being done but is an income supplement. The Department and this committee could take on that issue and look into it. It is a worrying trend and, again, is one of those things which are happening beneath the surface. It is not really on the radar but the evidence comes back to us that unofficially it is being used in certain parts of the country to deter people from getting the home help service. It would be very unfortunate if that were the case. It goes right against policy in this regard.

Our association, along with the Royal College of Psychiatry and Care Alliance Ireland have carried out a number of studies looking at the health and well-being of the family carer. There is a lot of evidence to show that carers frequently ignore their own health needs in favour of those being cared for. Carers tend to be people who give all the time and put themselves last. This has an adverse effect on their health, their psychological and mental health as well as their physical health. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that carers' health suffers significantly as a result of providing care. In this regard it is essential that medical cards are given to family carers on a non-means tested basis. In other words, if people become full-time carers they should automatically get a medical card which would allow them at least one full medical check in the year. This is used in other countries where governments state very clearly they value carers and the work they do and recognise the carer's health can be damaged by providing care. They put this intervention in place which seems to work well. It would not cost a lot of money and would give a significant signal that the Government is very much in favour of the work carers are doing and recognises what it is they do.

One of the outcomes in last year's budget was that the drugs payment scheme went from €100 to €120. In families where care takes place we find that is a significant issue and it needs to be looked at and reviewed. Obviously, it has a greater impact on families where there are health issues than on those without. Carers are in that predicament.

Needs assessment is one of the cornerstones that would allow the health services to deal with the issue of caring, carers' health and service provision for family carers. This is something we do not have in Ireland. It does take place in UK, which has passed an Act that allows each carer to obtain a needs assessment by right. It is similar to the needs assessment here for people with disabilities, under which one is entitled to the needs assessment but not automatically to the services. However, it is a step in the right direction. We felt it would form an integral part of the carer's strategy, but unfortunately that has not happened. We will talk about that in a few moments.

We recently had a conference which dealt with the issue of young carers. As I said earlier, according to the statistics there are just over 5,000 young carers in Ireland, but we estimate the true figure is a multiple of that. Children as young as five are involved in providing family care at home, often to a grandparent or a sibling. It often takes place in situations in which the relationship between parents has broken down; the child lives with one parent or the other, and that parent becomes ill. There is also much support for parents with alcohol or drug addiction.

Under Towards 2016 the Government decided to do some research into this area; the work was given to NUI Galway, which has recently published a study on young carers on Ireland. It is vital that the Government, particularly the Department of Health and Children, deals with this issue. We call on the Government to establish a specific budget for the area of young carers. Perhaps through a pilot project, we must consider how to identify young carers. One of the big issues in the UK and other countries in which carers are dealt with specifically is the identification of young carers. We will approach the Minister of State with responsibility for children in this regard.

To return to the core area of family carers, the fair deal scheme has come more and more to the fore over the last number of months. There appears to be much confusion among carers about the rules and regulations governing the scheme. There is a general lack of awareness among older people and certainly among family carers about how the scheme actually operates. One of the advantages of the old scheme was that one could access what was known as short-term subvention for respite care, which came to about €330 per week. This is now gone — it no longer exists under the current scheme. It could still be considered within local HSE budgets but, as everybody is aware, at the moment it is quite difficult to access anything that is not specific. There is also quite a long waiting period for the processing of applications under the fair deal scheme. While that is going on, carers are still caring at home.

As most people here are aware, the Government committed to the formulation of a national carers' strategy in the Towards 2016 agreement. Quite a lot of work was done on that strategy by an interdepartmental group headed up by the Department of Social Protection. Unfortunately, in the spring of last year, the Government decided not to publish the strategy. Since then, despite the amount of work that has gone into it, it has sat on the shelf. Our position on this is that there is no particular policy pertaining to carers that sets out a roadmap and considers specifically how carers will be served and valued over the next number of years. This is despite the fact that carers are probably the biggest national resource the country has. It is a shame.

We will call on the committee to give us support in calling for the Government to publish the strategy and to state clearly what it would intend to do if it did have the resources. It should at least put the strategy out there so people can see it is committed to it. At a later stage, when the economic indicators improve, we can start to work on implementing the strategy. Since the shelving of the national carers' strategy, the Government has introduced the national drugs strategy and gone ahead with the national positive ageing strategy, which signals that these issues are more important than that of family care.

As everybody is aware, Ireland has an ageing population; therefore, in the future, there will be more pressure on family carers than ever before. HSE and Government policy is that people should be cared for in their own homes for as long as possible. Professor Drumm has consistently stated that community care is the way forward. Everybody is aware of the various rationalisation programmes taking place in hospitals, with patients being admitted to hospitals much closer to the point of surgery and being discharged much sooner afterwards. The period spent in hospital is much reduced, as is the period of convalescence, and thus families must pick up the slack.

The fair deal scheme is probably a fairer scheme than the one that was there previously, and it is a sign of progress. Having said that, however, it only considers high-level care; people who require medium and low-level care unfortunately cannot get access under the fair deal programme. What will happen to those people? Again, they are pushed back on the family.

The 160,000 carers — we expect this number to be larger in the next census because the question is being changed — are saving the State, conservatively, about €2.8 million per year. There will be more pressure on them than ever before as the State pushes care back on the family as much as it can. Families will need to provide care without any extra resources because services are being reduced, and, at the same time, we do not have a strategy. In view of all this, the future does not look very bright for carers.

I thank Mr. Egan for that broad overview of the issues affecting carers.

I thank Mr. Egan for his presentation.

Mr. Egan stated that the figure of 5,500 young carers was an underestimate. Is there any means of setting up links between GPs and public health nurses in order to increase awareness? Is there any way in which information can be gathered about the number of carers and the role they play?

The contribution of family carers to the Irish economy was mentioned. In terms of the interpretation of the reduction in hours that a carer might need, I would have thought, as a nurse, that the needs of the patient would increase rather than decreasing. What would be the basis for such a decision?

I heard of a case study of a couple in their fifties in which the husband was suffering from multiple sclerosis. The man was receiving disability allowance while the wife relied on the carer's allowance; their son, who was unemployed because he was in the construction industry, moved home. Their household had already suffered due to the withdrawal of the Christmas bonus. The man was on 11 different prescriptions which needed to be filled every month, costing €127 per week. Thus, their weekly income was reduced by €26.37, or 4.1%, and their income was reduced overall by 5.7% over the year, equating to €1,900. These factors appear to have a disproportionate effect on people whose needs assessments were corroborated by their GPs, public health nurses and, probably, public representatives. We are supposed to provide primary care services.

Can an estimate be made of the average number of prescriptions written for people in care? Again, this represents a disproportionate charge on an identified group of people who are already in need.

Should the HSE provide workshops for carers and carers' associations to give further clarity on the fair deal and how needs are assessed? Yesterday I dealt with a case involving a lady who had been refused a carer's allowance for her husband because he was deemed as not sufficiently disabled even though he clearly had significant needs. The house in which they lived was not even amenable to a disabled person's grant because the stairwell was too narrow for a stair lift. I know this is not unusual because I conduct my clinics by visiting houses rather than sitting somewhere and expecting people to come to me. What are the main priorities for carers? I thank the delegates for their presentation.

I apologise for being late but I had business in the House. It is like Jack Charlton advised, keep them under pressure. I welcome the delegates.

I am concerned that the fair deal scheme is leading to a lack of respite care. Many of the patients who are currently catered for in long-term public beds are being transferred under the scheme into private nursing homes, thus consuming the capped funds available for nursing home care with no benefit to patients because the public facilities are being closed. Does the Carers Association have an opinion of this issue?

I understand a number of home care provider services are operated on a semi-commercial voluntary basis. They are not only paid a quantum by the HSE but also levy a charge on their clients. I do not refer to family members who give care but to agencies. This paints a false picture of the cost of care for individuals. While a private provider might charge €18, the HSE pays €15. Are the delegates aware of the extent of this practice and what is their view of it? Will they further comment on home care packages.

I would like to associate myself with the warm welcome extended to our friends. I do not want to single out Mr. Lahiffe in case I get him into trouble but it is good to see him nevertheless. I acknowledge my relationship with the Carers Association, particularly at local level. I am in awe of the great work it carries out in my local office, which is in Clondalkin rather than Tallaght, funnily enough. I pay warm tribute to its work and the way its members keep in touch with me.

It is important that we hear from the Carers Association and understand the pressure on Government sources. It needs to battle with everyone else but it deserves our particular support. All of us have had experience of dealing with the association. My sister cared for my late father, who died 14 years ago. It is important that we bring our own experiences to our politics. At the end of the day, the work of the association keeps people out of hospitals and nursing homes.

I refer to Tallaght. I conduct nine clinics every week but I also follow Senator Prendergast's example by calling to people's houses.

How does the Deputy find the time?

That is what we do. Speakers referred to young carers. Tallaght Community Council honours young carers through its annual Tallaght person of the year award, which was founded in 1984 to recognise unsung heroes under various categories. Young children are doing tremendous work for their parents or handicapped siblings. The award is well-known in Tallaght and I hope other communities around the country follow its example. Tallaght is always happy to show the way to the rest of the country. The award gives positive reinforcement to young people who do this work. I know many younger carers who are delighted to do what they do.

Approximately 173 days remain to the next budget. When the Minister for Social Protection visited my constituency a couple of weeks ago, a group of people were assembled to tell him what they believed should be done in regard to social welfare assistance. The Carers Association must compete with the other groups which will make arguments to us over the coming weeks. I do not patronise when I say the association has strong support at an all-party level. I wish it well in its work.

The delegation is very welcome. Nobody would deny that the Carers Association does outstanding work but it is in competition with others in the caring area. I ask Mr. Egan to set out his top two or three priorities. I appreciate that everything is a priority for the person who is not getting the service to which he or she is entitled but, in the overall context, what should be our main areas of concern irrespective of the pressures created by the budget?

I welcome the delegation, including in particular Mr. Lahiffe. I ask for further comment on the issue of child carers of parents with alcohol problems. Further to Deputy Connaughton's question, I ask for a succinct outline of the priorities for child carers and what is happening in this regard. I imagine that 95% of people in Ireland do not know about the existence of child carers. Precisely how many child carers does the association think there are?

I inaugurated an all-Ireland inspirational life award, which is for older people, and it is my pleasure to let everyone know that Mrs. Carmel Devaney, chairperson of the Athlone Carers Association, won the award, which was sponsored by Vodafone, The Irish Times and BT. She won the award for her efforts to support carers in her community. It was my pleasure for Mrs. Devaney to be honoured in such a way. The carers issue does not get the attention it needs. I thank the delegation for its presentation.

Like other members I welcome the deputation from the Carers Association of Ireland. It does not seem that long ago since we last saw them but it is very good to see them. The fact remains that it is a very important representative organisation of a group that does much for society and Ireland. Nothing can take away from that point.

The group's issues are always well put, precise and not too laboured. I apologise for not being here for the beginning of the presentation but the group made a number of points. We will take them on board and speak to the relevant Minister or Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children to get a response.

I apologise for being late as I was delayed in the Chamber. Thank you, Chairman for the opportunity to ask a question. We have been on the young carers issue for a long time and the report was published earlier this year. Is there anything that could be done straight away for young carers to assist in their work? Should we take any action with regard to school and education? In Australia and other countries there are websites and so on dedicated to support. Is anything happening to support these people?

The delegation spoke about the finances involved with regard to €22 per hour for care. The acute hospital care figure is €5,000 per hour. Will the delegation comment on direct payments, which have been mentioned, and how much work has been done on that? Individualised funding means people can purchase their own services. It is something that has been considered in Canada and the United States, and we have examined the matter of money following the client or patient. Is it correct to state that the money available, for example, for hospital work and care is not linked to money available for nursing or home care? There could be a way to link the funding if it was decided that somebody would benefit more from staying at home; for a fraction of the cost of nursing home or hospital care such people could be looked after at home.

Does the delegation agree that for a person with a disability, an elderly person or somebody needing care, it is much better to be in a home environment anyway rather than in a nursing home or hospital setting?

We have had a comprehensive range of questions but unfortunately we are under some pressure for time because of today's events.

I apologise for not being here to listen to the presentation. We got held up. We are busy in the Chamber today with everything that is going on.

I ask the delegates to be fairly concise in dealing with questions. If there are areas we cannot cover perhaps they could correspond with the committee.

Mr. Enda Egan

There are many questions to be answered so I will try to touch on all of them and come back to others. I might pass over to some of my colleagues on certain issues.

Almost everybody mentioned young carers. There is no doubt that Senator White is right and this is an issue which tends to be overlooked. Carers in general tends to stay below the radar and young carers, for many, is an issue that does not exist. People may not have heard of the term and when they hear it they probably would not understand what it means. It is real. Kids may be in a family where there is a care issue and because of a range of circumstances they may end up taking on some of the caring duties, which has a significant impact on their physical and psychological development. There can be a major impact on education and ability to attend and engage in the education system. We all know the consequences arising from such a lack of engagement.

The figures are more than 5,000, although it is difficult to put an exact figure on the issue. One could probably multiply it by two or three from our comparisons with other countries. The work carried out in Galway proves that the problem exists, although those involved in the work found it very difficult to engage with young carers. They found it difficult to identify such carers for a range of reasons. In many cases families do not want people to know the circumstances where a child is providing care, for privacy reasons. They may be afraid that if the fact is exposed the young child may be taken away by social services. This feeds into the young carer issue being kept off the radar.

Deputy Stanton asked what can be done and there are some simple actions that can be taken. There is no information for young carers so a website that would cost very little would be a good starting place. It should not just be an information website and should allow young carers to interact with each other and develop support groups across the Internet for young carers. Information packs can be pulled together fairly quickly specifically for young carers, outlining services and supports.

A step must be taken before that to develop protocols and consider pilot projects to produce systems of engagement with young carers. Generally that starts through the education system and getting teachers involved. All the other organisations and agencies dealing with children right across the country should also be included. A multidisciplinary approach is required.

There is nothing specifically for young carers here other than what might be there through existing services. Many health service people going into homes might not identify young carers or be aware of them. We are at the greenfield site stage for this issue. In our recent conference Ireland was measured to indicate that this was an emerging issue. However, the issue probably has not even begun to emerge here.

There are many good points around this. We have not done anything wrong, so we do not need to fix anything. We must move on the issue fairly quickly and we hope the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, can meet us fairly soon to see how we can put the pieces of the jigsaw on the table before fitting them together. We must consider ways to identify young carers, contact them and engage with them in a way that does not frighten them or their families.

Ms Clare Duffy

The 2006 census excluded young carers under 15 years from being enumerated and I hope the 2011 census will count the number of carers under 15. That will give us a start. The figure of just under 5,500 young carers aged between 15 and 19 is a significant under-estimation because young people are not identifying themselves as carers.

One of the speakers at the national conference was Professor Saul Becker from the University of Nottingham, who is the international guru of young carers. He looked at the proportion of young carers in other countries where they are counted and he argued that applying the same formula to Ireland would indicate a number in the region of approximately 28,000 young carers aged under 18, with approximately 54,000 young carers under 25. At the moment we really do not know how many young carers there are, but I hope from census 2011 onwards we will.

One of the biggest findings of the study commissioned by the Office of the Minister of State with responsibility for children was that not all young carers are vulnerable. There is a continuum of care, with the experience of those at one end of the continuum being quite positive, if they are supported. However, at the other end there are carers who are extremely vulnerable, including young people caring for parents with addiction problems or similar. To return to the question of priorities for young carers, whatever initiatives or pilot projects we instigate, we must focus on the young carers who are at that end of the continuum.

Mr. Enda Egan

There were many comments about practical services within the home. Senator Prendergast asked about the home help service and how it is decided that fewer hours are required. The answer is that we are not sure, but we are half-certain that it is being driven by reductions in budgets and so on. That is what appears to be the case. It is quite unfortunate and hard to believe that although Government policy is to care for people as long as they can in their own homes, in practice we are moving away from this. One of our concerns — Senator Prendergast mentioned this, and I am aware it is not specifically within the remit of this committee — is that many applications made for carer's allowance are being turned down for health reasons. Applicants are satisfying the income disregard in the means test, but it appears anecdotally that there is an increase in the number of applications being refused on the basis that the person concerned does not require full-time care and attention.

Not all the boxes are being ticked.

Mr. Enda Egan

It is obviously the softer issue for the person making the decision. It is semi-subjective, I presume. It is something we have come across. We have heard of a number of cases in which there is no doubt care is required 24 hours a day, seven days a week, yet the family is not receiving carer's allowance on the basis that the person does not require 24-hour care. That is a worrying trend that is starting to develop.

Is this is an emerging trend?

Mr. Enda Egan

It is an emerging trend. There is no doubt about that.

Deputy Reilly is not with us at the moment, but he asked about long-stay patients being moved into nursing homes. This does appear to have been happening in recent months. It is eating into the budget for the fair deal scheme, which is capped, and at some stage that will become a problem. It certainly appears that long-stay beds are being freed by putting nursing home costs against the budget for the fair deal scheme, the result of which will be that other people who want to gain access to the fair deal scheme will not be able to, and their families will have to cover the cost of their care. Again, this is evidence of the responsibility being pushed back on to families.

The issue of a levy on services was raised. My knowledge of this is that the HSE does not fully fund all services provided by the voluntary sector, and therefore the voluntary sector seeks contributions from families who are availing of services. This may still be the practice in certain HSE areas for the home help service. It appears at the moment that the HSE is working on some policy in this area. The result may well be that organisations such as ours may be deterred from asking for contributions. It looks as though this might happen suddenly and very shortly. If it does, the consequence will be a reduction in services. It appears to be happening where services are not fully funded at local level, so it is being subsidised by families. It is highly likely at this stage that we will be prevented from continuing with this practice. I am not sure whether that was what Deputy Reilly was referring to, but I presume it is.

The HSE is saying that this is similar to the nursing home charges that were in existence a couple of years ago, and it looks as though it may be unconstitutional. However, the result if this goes ahead is that there will be fewer services. Common sense should prevail. In many cases families are delighted to give a small contribution towards the service and would prefer for that to continue. For the sake of common sense it would be a pity if a reduction in service took place.

Are there any other questions Mr. Egan can deal with briefly before we conclude?

Mr. Enda Egan

A question that came up a couple of times was that of priorities for the budget. Our statement on this is quite straightforward. Carers should be protected from all cuts, simply because of the vast sums of money they are saving the State, and because we are being dumped upon, so to speak, in terms of cutbacks, particularly across the health service provision. It is absolutely vital that the half-rate carer's allowance remains in place. There is no doubt about that. If that were to be removed, there would be a reduction of about one third in the incomes of some families. The respite grant is also of major value to families and we would not like to see that being taken away.

Is there a set amount of funding per annum for carers in the HSE, or is it flexible? Has the funding for the fair deal scheme had some effect on that, or did I take Mr. Egan up wrongly?

Mr. Enda Egan

I am sorry; I missed that question.

Is there a set amount of capital funding for carers per year, or is it flexible? Has the money put aside for the fair deal scheme had an effect on this?

Mr. Enda Egan

There is no particular set funding for carers as such, although there is set funding of about €130 million for home care packages, from which carers benefit across a number of services, including practical help with caring in the home and respite care. Beyond that, however, there is no specific fund for family carers within the HSE. Obviously the fair deal scheme is important to families when they feel that nursing home care is the only option left. Our concern, as mentioned by Deputy Reilly, is that it appears the fair deal budget is being used to move patients from long-stay beds in public hospitals into private nursing homes. Because of this, the budget for the fair deal scheme will run out more quickly than had been anticipated, which means that people who want to access the scheme will not be able to, and responsibility for their care will fall back on their families. This will be the knock-on effect.

I thank Mr. Egan for responding to those queries. If there are other matters we can deal with them by way of correspondence. I thank the delegates for their presentation. There are two messages we take from them: they want to see some action on the carers' strategy and they want to protect existing supports in the forthcoming budget. We are happy to reflect those sentiments on their behalf.

Mr. Enda Egan

Absolutely. The support of the committee would be helpful with regard to young carers.

We will certainly raise that matter with the Minister. We will now suspend for about 30 seconds while we invite the next group to join us.

Sitting suspended at 4.39 p.m. and resumed at 4.40 p.m.
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