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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN debate -
Tuesday, 21 Sep 2010

Children in Hospital Ireland: Discussion.

The next item is a presentation by the Children in Hospital Ireland organisation. Our sincere apologies to the representatives for being a little late in calling them in but they would have heard the previous presentation and will be aware it required additional time. I welcome Ms Mary O'Connor and Ms Dympna McMahon.

Before I begin I would like to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(i) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The witnesses' paper has been circulated to us. I acknowledge the fact that Senator Mary White is anxious that we would hear from them about the work they are doing. I ask them to give us a synopsis of their position following which I will open the discussion to members and have a question and answer session.

Ms Dympna McMahon

I thank Senator Mary White, in particular, for taking the initiative some months ago to invite me to come before this committee and also the Chairman, Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, for sending me the official invitation.

I am chairperson of Children in Hospital Ireland. We are a registered charity which provides volunteer services for sick children in 20 hospitals throughout Ireland, the locations of which are printed on the back of the red leaflet.

The background to Children in Hospital Ireland is unique. We were founded 40 years ago and therefore this is our ruby year. We were founded in 1970 by Mrs. Patricia Hemmens, an ordinary housewife and mother from Malahide. There was no big deal about this woman. She did not like the experience she had when a child of hers was a patient in hospital and therefore she set about challenging the system.

Once upon a time, when a child was admitted to hospital, his or her life was changed utterly for the duration. The conditions were harsh and sometimes, although unwittingly, somewhat cruel. Parental visiting was severely restricted. Starched white sheets, acres of polished floors, discipline and absolute order was the routine but that is not normal for a child. Play, the natural occupation of any child, was not part of the healing process and therefore Mrs. Hemmens sought like-minded people and together they formed a group which was the genesis of Children in Hospital Ireland. The aims of the organisation at that time were, and still are, to improve conditions in children's hospitals by creating a culture which could ensure as normal a life as possible for a sick child who was temporarily in abnormal circumstances. Our mission is to make hospital a happier place for the children of this nation.

To that end, Children in Hospital Ireland actively advocated for the following, which I will detail briefly as I am aware time is of the essence — statutory standards for the delivery of health care for sick children; open visiting; parental accommodation on site; wards dedicated for the nursing of children alone and not side by side with adults; the continuum of education while children were in hospital; the provision of information for parents about hospital, preparation for it and any organisation which was essential for aftercare; and the provision of play for all children in all hospitals because play is the normal life of any child. Some of those objectives have been achieved; for example, open visiting is now the norm. There is a move towards providing parental accommodation but the size of hospitals does not always allow for that. It is not coming fast enough but I hope, with the advent of the new hospital, it might be somewhat better. We still come across rare occasions where children continue to be nursed in adult wards. That is not good but it is the position. Education is provided for some children in some hospitals but while we campaign for the continuum of education, that is the remit of the Department of Education and Skills; it is not our responsibility to provide it.

We have provided information in some hospitals under a new designated "just ask service" but, unfortunately, only a few of the larger hospitals have taken up this offer. Playrooms have been built in nearly all hospitals, often, I am sorry to say, by private money and donations. Our volunteers guarantee that those playrooms are open and operational every day. If a child is confined to bed, our volunteers take the play and distraction to the bedside. Some hospitals have fully trained play specialists on their staff and our volunteers work under their guidance. In cases where there is not a play specialist, our volunteers work directly with the ward managers. The phrase "a lot done, more to do" comes readily to mind.

Turning to the work of the organisation, CHI is affiliated to the European Association for Children in Hospital. Together with this group, we have drawn up a charter of statutory standards which sets out the best practice for delivery of health care of children and I included in the presentation a copy of this charter for members' information should they like to read it at some time. CHI works closely with the HSE and the Department and Health and Children in all matters regarding the delivery of health care to sick children. We interact closely with Action for Sick Children in the UK and we meet frequently with the European members to keep abreast of events in other countries. We recruit, train and manage volunteers and assign them to hospitals of their choice. We work closely with the Garda Síochána on the strict vetting procedures. However, the time that this vetting procedure takes can be a problem. It can take six weeks or two months by which stage some of the would-be volunteers have become frustrated. We have spent money training them and some of them may go to some other organisation and we lose them. We understand this process takes time but it is a pity it cannot be speeded up a little. We offer further training courses to any volunteer who might need it in the area of health care. We have run a successful course which teaches volunteers how to cope with young people who have eating disorders; this has been a very popular course. We hold fun days in all our hospitals. As a series of events to mark our 40th year, last week we started a nationwide tour bringing fun to children's hospitals all over the country and the first stop was Drogheda. Eight years ago we inaugurated the annual Children in Hospital Ireland lecture, which has been addressed by distinguished speakers both from within and outside the medical profession. In May of this year we hosted an annual conference in Dublin Castle, primarily on the topic of the new children's hospital. That covers the work of the organisation.

The work of the volunteers is rather specific. Children in Hospital Ireland is the only charity operating a play service in hospitals in this country. No other organisation brings unconstructed play to children. We have more than 400 trained and Garda vetted volunteers in the 20 hospitals. They provide 40,000 hours of committed, unpaid service to the children of this nation every year. They organise activities for these children and create as normal a life as possible for the children during their time in hospital. In the country we have team leaders selected from good volunteers and our service manager liaises with the team leaders on a daily basis and travels to the hospital several times a year.

Our volunteers are exemplars of discipline, motivation, generosity and commitment hail, rain or shine. Notwithstanding good days for golf or tennis, our volunteers turn up every day on time in these 20 hospitals. If they are not on time, the children are there, some of them attached to drips and other equipment, saying, "what kept you?". Children leaving hospitals with happy memories seem to be much easier to handle when they go home. They bring home less trauma with them, they seem to regress less in their development and they seem overall to be less needy children. We have come across adults who have told us that they find it very difficult to integrate in life and society and have done so frequently as a result of a long hospital stay when they were in their childhood. Some children in those days had to stay in hospital for up to a year or more with TB and other conditions. Thankfully, that does not happen any more, but those people did not bring home happy memories.

Should a child become ill today, Children in Hospital Ireland and its volunteers are always there to help those parents in times of distress. I have had five children and I have not had the experience of many parents who today are more or less expected to book themselves into the hospital with the child. I understand the psychological reasons for that but it is not always possible. There are cases where parents, who are lucky enough to have jobs, are afraid to, or cannot, take time off. I have seen mothers torn with emotion between wanting to stay with a sick child while knowing there are three, four, five or six more at home who need them just as much. Most sadly of all, and it is difficult to comprehend this in 2010, I have come across parents who cannot afford to be in hospital with their children. If they do not have a car they cannot afford the fare. They cannot afford the food to feed themselves when they are in hospital. They cannot afford baby-sitting for the children at home. Surely in an era like this when there are such social and family problems, an organisation like ours is the answer. A few years ago I worked alongside Ms Eithne FitzGerald, who carried out some research for us on the cost of having a child in hospital — not the cost to the State which is given, but the cost to the parent. The findings were staggering. It was anywhere between €80 and €110 per week on top of an already stretched budget for one parent to have one child in hospital. Parking charges in hospitals are a deterrent. It was very interesting to me that at times of good employment and good economic prospects people still found it difficult. What must they think today?

Each volunteer whom we train is closely vetted to within an inch of his or her life by gardaí. If a parent cannot be in hospital he or she can have no worry about our volunteer who interacts with that child. In this day and age that is quite important.

The new children's hospital is another subject close to my heart. To ensure that our services continue to be provided and utilised we need to operate a watching brief. I am particularly interested to know what will happen with this new children's hospital. I am very anxious for it to go ahead but I would like to know what services will be provided for the children and the parents. Will there be an update of what is there already? What services and facilities will be there? What role will our volunteers have therein? We have 40 years accumulated experience and expertise in delivering normal life to children in abnormal circumstances and we would be very happy to share this with the board of a new hospital and anybody else who might be interested.

There are some stumbling blocks to the work of Children in Hospital Ireland. Normally it goes quite well but some of the stumbling blocks could be as follows — I will not go through them all. I often find a tacit reluctance on the part of some hospitals to deal with unpaid staff. I do not know why that is. There could be many reasons. It could be that paid staff do not appreciate or understand the role of a motivational volunteer. It could be lack of managerial expertise in hospitals which finds it impossible to co-ordinate the services of volunteer staff alongside paid staff and some paid staff feel under threat. Every one of our volunteers has a career in his or her own right; so we do not offer a threat to anyone. The volunteers are just well motivated people who want to give things back to society.

I also find a lack of appreciation on the part of medical staff and other hospital personnel. I have heard our volunteers on occasion referred to as "just volunteers". That is very unpleasant. I would like to see Irish society taking a lead out of the British Prime Minister's, David Cameron's, book. What he has espoused could be accommodated alongside paid staff. He is not the first person with these kinds of views. Research has been carried out in Ireland by the ERSI with the task force on active citizenship, which recognises the importance of civic engagement. If these ideas were implemented, what a world we would live in. It would be sheer utopia where everyone benefits and everybody is a winner. Can one ask for anything better than that?

Funding is a problem — the dreaded four-letter word "cash". To keep these charities afloat, CHI needs sustainable funding. Currently most of our finance comes from the central Exchequer. However, we undertake small fund-raising activities within our core groups of volunteers. One of the Dublin groups had a large barbecue sometime in August which was a great success. I am not sure how much we raised — perhaps €500. It was not a very large amount of money but is better than being minus €500. We are not a fund-raising group. We do not have the expertise or the knowledge. We have a small Dublin office. We have three paid staff, whose full time occupation is co-ordinating and managing this massive national endeavour on the part of all our children and grandchildren for those of us fortunate enough to have grandchildren. We are not a fund-raising organisation. Funding is always a problem.

I have some aspirations for the future of Children in Hospital Ireland. I do not know whether members of the committee want to hear them. I know that time is of the essence. I will run through them very quickly. I would like each charter to be written into legislation and implemented immediately in hospital care for children. At the moment medical people look at this and they use it like a menu. They cherry pick the bits they think they can use today and they do not have to use it tomorrow. That is not good enough where children's health is concerned. I would like Children in Hospital Ireland to be known by every single mother who gives birth on the basis that it is better to be forewarned than to be shocked should an illness befall her child. The responsibility for this could be attached to the maternity hospitals. Our leaflets, which are very colourful and which I have before me, should be given to every new mother. After seven long years of persuasion last Thursday Mary O'Connor and I made a breakthrough and succeeded in getting a tiny representation in the National Maternity Hospital. It is very small but small is better than none. I would like to see if the other maternity hospitals can follow suit. Because of the competition there, she cannot have it if I cannot have it. So a maternity hospital sets the bar quite high. The dialogue will continue.

I would like parental accommodation to be available on site as a matter of course for every parent who requires it at a price they can afford. I would like play to be considered an integral part of the healing process of any sick child in the very same way that any other therapy is considered part of the healing process. I have a personal conviction about this. Doctors do not always recognise it. Modules should be introduced in the training sessions when young people are studying in medical college. They should be convinced of the efficacy and importance of play towards the improved condition of a child.

What is achievable out of CHI's vision? All of it is. All we need is the co-operation of the HSE with which we have very good relations, hospital personnel with whom we have reasonably good relations — it is good in some places not so good and others a bit like the parson's egg. Parents can come on board a little more often. Local communities can become a little more involved with us and with funders. Our organisation is unique. Unlike some children's charities which are involved with Down's syndrome or other particular medical conditions, our charity touches the lives of every man, woman and child. While not everybody has children, we were all children once and we all know the emotions, sentiments and conflicts involved in having separation of child from parent or a child having to go to hospital. That is why it touches everybody.

The successful and complete recovery of a sick child is not all about the doctor and a nurse. I accept they are very important, but they only form part of the story. It is just as much about the child's experience in hospital and the memories he or she takes home. We try to ensure the memories are good. We do not win them all, but we try. We are a very compassionate group of 400 committed volunteers, but we are also realists. We do not expect every child who was discharged from hospital today to think that he or she has been on holiday in Disneyland or out to tea with Snow White.

If I may, I will digress for one moment. I have been with Children in Hospital Ireland as a volunteer in various capacities for 12 years. When I started this work I met a child in the hospital in Crumlin who was terribly distressed. As part of the volunteer training we do not ask the child what is wrong. So I sat there and waited for her to tell me. Her mother drove her from the country and told her she was going for a holiday. She left that child in the care of the hospital. Members should think about that. When I subsequently met the mother I discovered that she had such a traumatic experience while in hospital in the 1950s with polio that she could not bring herself to foist the same sadness upon her child. We in Children in Hospital Ireland hope that would never happen again. We are looking forward with anticipation to the next 40 years. I will not be there but I hope somebody will pick up the baton and run with it.

I thank the members for listening to me. As the fellow said, "Follow that".

I apologise that I must leave the meeting. I assume that when I am gone no one else will say that I have a particular interest in this issue. It is not due to disinterest that I am leaving. I commend all those involved in this. We will speak again.

We are charmed today with the calibre of the presentations and humbled by the value of the work that people have been doing.

I thank Ms McMahon for a very enthusiastic presentation. We have been fortunate with the groups we had in today. They all represented people with a passion about making something happen, and primarily represented much volunteerism. Ms McMahon certainly represents that.

When my son was six months' old he got meningitis and had to go into hospital for a week. I only had two children, but I can imagine what it is like if one has five or six children and is trying to get to the hospital three or four times a day — in my case it was not possible to stay there — and also look after the other children. That is an issue we often do not think about. We only think about the sick child but there are the other children as well.

On the new children's hospital, it is a little disturbing that those involved here do not appear to have been consulted. We met the members of the team that is establishing the new hospital and they showed us beautiful pictures of what the hospital was to be like, the accommodation for families, etc. I assumed that they would have consulted beforehand with such representative groups. Perhaps they consulted with it and with other groups which represent families of children in hospital. It is like designing kitchens for local authority houses where one asks the person who has experience and knows what is needed before one makes the mistakes and needs to figure it out afterwards.

I ask the groups here to outline to what extent they were consulted. If there are things that need to be said this committee could convey any such views because this is the biggest health project in the near future and we must get it right. I accept people are arguing about the site, but what will be included in the new facility is also important to children and their families. As a committee, we must value the amount of work that is done by groups such as this which do it out of passion and conviction that it needs to be done.

I am conscious that the committee has a standing invitation to visit the site of the proposed hospital. Perhaps when we are doing that, if the committee can agree and if it is appropriate — the clerk to the committee will have to advise me of the protocols in all of these matters — we might include you in that visit so that you could engage.

Ms Dympna McMahon

Excellent.

I thank Ms McMahon for spelling out the mission of Children in Hospital Ireland. I believe that many are not aware of this valiant effort made by 400 volunteers and that 40,000 hours are given a year by them. It is admirable and exemplary. I am not being mercenary now, but can they put a financial value on all the work they are doing. This group would be a good example to place high on the priorities of the new sub-committee on children which the committee is setting up.

Everybody is concerned about the vetting of visitors. Could they explain the quality of the vetting and the training that the volunteers get?

I, too, welcome Ms O'Connor and Ms McMahon here today. It was a wonderful presentation and Ms McMahon held all our interest. For any of us, adults or children, hospitals are not a nice place in which to be and if one has had a bad experience, particularly when a child, it lives with one for the rest of one's life. One is away from home and may not be in a position to have a parent stay with one all of the time, as Ms McMahon correctly stated. It can be traumatic. It is hugely important to have a friendly face or somebody who comes in and speaks to a child at his or her level. The doctors and medics have their work to do and their terminology to use, which goes over the heads of children. It is particularly important that persons come in with a focus on children and speaking to them at their level. What level of funding is available from the HSE?

I wish to be associated with wishing Ms McMahon and Ms O'Connor the very best and thanking them for the presentation. Children in Hospital Ireland is doing a worthwhile job in each hospital. I have seen it at first hand where my grandchild had a long-term stay in hospital. I saw them working on it and it helped in no small way, which I appreciate. I suppose there are hundreds of families like mine, with parents and grandparents, who have been in a similar position.

The delegation did not mention the considerable charitable funding involved. Is any funding available from establishments such as the Department and the HSE?

The group has 400 volunteers. Is it Dublin based or is it based around the country? The group spoke of 20 hospitals. I am from south east Kilkenny. How many volunteers has the group in that area? Are there persons who visit the hospital in Kilkenny? How far does the group reach? How many personnel has it around the country?

Ms Mary O’Connor

I will try to take the questions in order. In response to Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, we were consulted about the new hospital. Even before the new hospital project, for years we have been campaigning to have the delivery of hospital services in the capital city changed because having three stand-alone hospitals delivering services for children was not best for a relatively small city and we felt that it would be better to have one institution where one could gather together the expertise and deliver a really high quality service to the highest standards to the children of the city. When, finally, the building of a new hospital was put on the agenda we welcomed it. We have been involved at all the stages during the various consultation processes with the HSE, with the different consultants involved and with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. As Ms McMahon stated, we are delighted that the hospital is going ahead. It is essential for the children of Dublin and also for the children of the country, and we hope it proceeds as required.

I am sure everybody is aware that there are issues, in the media and elsewhere, about the location of the site. Any site that was chosen would have its own problems and no site would have been perfect. As the decision has been made, we feel our energy should be put into ensuring that the hospital, when it is built, will be the best in the world. We will be watching and being critical along the various stages. We would be delighted, should the committee wish to visit the site, to accompany members and to have a discussion on site. That would be a very interesting proposition.

The next question was about value for money. Our 400 volunteers provide their services free. Placing even a nominal value of €10 per hour on those services amounts to €400,000. This is good value for money. The volunteers provide the equivalent of approximately 34 whole-time staff to hospital services. It is essential that children in hospital have this avenue where they can relax and remove themselves from the abnormal clinical situation of the hospital. It gives them a chance to do something they are familiar with and also gives them a chance not to do something, should they so choose. In many cases in hospital, choice is removed from children. They are in hospital for treatment and they get that treatment. They do not have a say in whether they will have it. The ability to have this choice gives them a certain amount of autonomy, which they can lose in the hospital experience.

Garda vetting was mentioned. Volunteers going into hospitals are cognisant of this matter. I work for the organisation but I began as a volunteer in the 1980s. Volunteers are in a privileged position. We are dealing with children and parents who are vulnerable. To do that in a way that is beneficial to everyone, volunteers must be well trained. They must have the highest standards. Garda vetting is an important part of ensuring standards are high. In addition to Garda vetting we get references for all volunteers who go into hospitals. We also support the volunteers throughout their working lives as volunteers. We have a volunteer services manager who works with team leaders in every hospital and ensures volunteers are working as well as they can and to the highest standards. We do in-service training with volunteers throughout the course of their volunteering lives. Ms Dympna McMahon has mentioned some of the courses we run in that regard.

The bulk of our funding comes from the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. We are at the end of a three-year cycle of funding and we do not know what will be put in place at the end of this cycle in December next. We also receive a grant from the HSE. Those two grants provide us with 75% to 80% of our funding. The rest of our funding comes through fund-raising and donations. We are not a fund-raising organisation. We do not have that expertise. Our expertise is in delivering service. Our funding requirements are modest. Our annual budget is of the order of €220,000. Considerable value is given by our volunteer service alone. We did not mention our information and advice service for parents or the education service we provide to second and third level students. We do that as well. We think what we do gives good value for money and we are not looking for huge amounts of money to keep going. We could do with a little extra money. Managing 400 people who are spread throughout the country is a pretty difficult task. It would be great if we had more personnel to manage the volunteer service.

I am pleased to tell the committee that in recent months we have started our service in St. Luke's Hospital in Kilkenny. The hospital had been asking us to provide the service but we did not have the wherewithal to do it until recently. This year, we started three new groups in Kilkenny, Tralee and Sligo.

How does the organisation recruit its volunteers?

Ms Mary O’Connor

At least twice a year in every centre we advertise in the local press and radio. One very interesting avenue of recruitment is parish newsletters of all denominations. Once we have people who are interested in volunteering, they undergo our training programme which consists of a number of modules covering all the different areas in which volunteers working in a hospital need expertise. We also advertise in national newspapers at this time of year.

Ms Dympna McMahon

We had 60 potential volunteers at a training session in Crumlin last Saturday morning. Among the 60 were five men.

Is that unusual?

Ms Dympna McMahon

It is very unusual to have five. Most people think a sick child is a tiny little scrap but there are young fellows of 18 who want to play snooker and talk about football and girls and all kinds of things. They are not going to talk about that to me but they would talk about it to my sons, if I could encourage them. Five young men was unusual. The bar is very high. We have a helicopter pilot, a diplomat and a doctor. Our volunteers come from very high educational backgrounds. They are highly motivated people and they are very humble about taking our training programme. The training programme goes along the following lines. We give information about the organisation and that kind of thing on day one. On day two, I hold a half-day seminar on personal motivation because there is no point in 1,000 people coming to volunteer if only 25 of them can do the job. It can be very trying and traumatic. We weed them out in my module on motivation and thinking about themselves. Once we get the core group, we hand the training over to people in the hospital: psychologists, hygienists, nurse managers and so on. We spread the training out over six weeks because the Garda vetting procedure takes so long. We can do nothing about that. I would like it to be speeded up.

Work is being done to speed that up.

More people are being allocated to that work.

Ms Dympna McMahon

That is good, because one does lose good quality people. It costs us approximately €400 to train each volunteer. We spend eight hours training each volunteer. Sometimes, having spent €400 on 100 of them, they go off and join Barnardos or work in hospices. That is fantastic for them but we have a tiny amount of money so it is not good for us.

Ms Mary O’Connor

The Garda vetting requirement can work against us because we can only get vetting for people who have addresses in Ireland. There are very few people who have not spent considerable time outside the country throughout their lives. It cramps our style a little that we cannot get vetting even for Europe.

On Saturday last, Deputy Kathleen Lynch and I were both on a panel in UCC discussing women in politics. Deputy Lynch told us she spent a long number of years on her back in hospital following an accident. The hospital was run by nuns and she told us they would not allow her to read Woman’s Way when she became a teenager. She was allowed to read——

Ms Dympna McMahon

The Messenger, maybe?

I would just like to let the witnesses know that Deputy Lynch has great empathy with hospital patients.

We have benefitted from hearing the presentation. The joint committee will make representations to the HSE and to the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 October 2010.
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